My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 449 - We’re All Human Beings

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

On today’s episode, Georgia and Karen cover the poisoning of Mary Yoder.  For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Exactly Right. Hi, I'm Erin Welsh. And I'm Erin Amund Uppdeich, and we're the hosts of this podcast, We'll Kill You, on Exactly Right. We're back with our seventh season, which is bigger and better than ever. Because guess what? We're now a weekly show. This season, we're tackling everything from long COVID to norovirus, from the supplement industry to IVF and so, so much more. New episodes

drop every single Tuesday. Follow this podcast will kill you wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. And welcome. To my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar. That's Karen Kilgarafe. This is a solo episode. This is where I am going to tell you a story on my own all by myself because we're on vacation.

Yeah. And also we need to start working independently. It's important. It's gone on for too long. We are so codependent. It's got to, we've got to break the chains. Yeah. And as Fleetwood Mac says, you will never break the chains. You will never break, but you will never, but you have to try because trying is important. I mean...

Trying is almost more important than succeeding. I mean, some say. I wish I could believe that. Yeah. I have a book real quick, if you need a fucking vacation book, even though it's the middle of October for these people listening now. Oh yeah, that's true. But it's still a good book.

But some people take a little break. Yeah. I listened to a book called The Wedding People by Alison Espach. And it's a feel-good book about a woman who decides to take her own life. And so she goes to a hotel for her last night. But the hotel is overrun by the wedding people because there's a wedding that week. The bride finds out about her plans and is like, you're not going to ruin my wedding.

So befriends her. Then she changes her whole, like it's a beautiful like metamorphosis type of thing. That sounds amazing. I know, it's really like real, it's real and good. That's a very cool idea. Yeah, the wedding people. Very cool.

Is El Pollo Loco a national brand? I think so. I'll say this. Because, you know, I can be very repetitive. I mean, I can't recommend Poirot again. I've done it too many times, but I really rely on it. But the other day, our production manager Jess, she ordered El Pollo Loco.

Oh, to the office? Yeah. That is a standby for me and Vince, for sure. Is it really? Because it's just fucking perfect every time. It is good. It's like, I feel like it's unsung in this way that like maybe it's been around a little longer than other places.

But as I came in to the office, she was going out to go pick it up. And then Brian, our office manager, was just like, do you want some too? So I was like, just get me a quesadilla. Always protein. Always get Karen protein. Please get me protein. And if you need to make a decision, a quesadilla will always work for me. Yeah, cheese and protein. Yeah. So they brought it back. And what El Pollo Loco is doing with their quesadillas. Sounds like mad. I am sorry to do this for free.

But it was like they were mimicking a Crunchwrap Supreme. So it's all folded and like fried on the grill. I love a grilled little tortilla. But then they have stuff inside there like real flavorings and seasonings and stuff. Like veggies and shit. Yeah, like little slices of tomato and peppers. It was one of the best quesadillas I've ever had. Oh my god, I'm so hungry right now.

Well, I like that plug. It feels worthwhile. Yeah, because it's like, we do books, we do TV shows, sometimes we'll do a movie. Yeah. When's the last time you did, like, what if we every week recommended a different quesadilla? Not even a fast food place, Just a quesadilla. You just get real specific. I'm so down with that. Yeah, we've been eating. That was like our go-to when we were young and broke.

What was your order? My mom would just get like, you know, like family meal. Oh, yeah. So just like a normal family meal, but it's just like so good. So good. They also it's like their chicken is amazing Mm-hmm. It's the crazy chicken. And they like it's that idea you're just like they give you tortillas they give you this chicken. Yeah, great red salsa. Yeah It's good. What are you even eating right now? Everyone, please?

What are you even eating right now? Maybe that's what we'll do. We'll just like come back And it's like is there something that like sparked your life in a way that you ate this week? Yeah. That when you go back to eat it sometimes, like you wouldn't constantly eat it, but when you go to eat it, you're like, wow, thank God this is still around and tastes exactly the same. I'm like, why do I do this more often?

Yeah. Okay. We've done it. That's our New Year's fourth episode. Speaking of people who work at Exactly Right Media. Yeah. Okay. We've done it. That's our New Year's fourth episode. Speaking of people who work at Exactly Right Media, we have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media. There's so many people at work here.

There's so many people. Not just Jess. Not just Brian. Here are some highlights. So you may have heard that we're doing Rewind with Karen and Georgia, which is basically us recapping our own podcast. If the narcissism wasn't bad enough already, we've started our own recap podcast. So, we decided to re-release the first t-shirt ever made. This was a full-on Georgia hardstark production. Artist Michael

Ramsted did this very precious illustration. We've updated it from the 2016 version to a 2024 version. You can go now, do a pre-order at MyFavoriteMurder.com, and basically get in there before they're all gone. Yeah, limited edition. Yeah. It's fucking classic. It's very cute. It's one of my faves.

There's also brand new MFM animated inspired Halloween merch in the merch store, giant skeleton sweatpants, Mothman hoodies. It's actually quite a collection for this spooky season. It's really incredible. So go to MyFavoriteMurder.com and go shopping. And also please follow at Exactly Right on social media to learn more about what's happening this week on your favorite podcasts including Wicked Words with Kate Winkler-Dawson and Parent Footprint with Dr. Dan. Also what I was talking about, Rewind with Karen and Georgia, episode 14 is out now

and it features a conversation about crimes from the 1990s. Including belly chains. If you love My Favorite Murder, which I hope you do if you're listening. I mean. Just do us a big favor. Go rate, review, and follow the show wherever you get your podcast. It just helps us out a little bit. And if you're listening because you hate us, we hate you too. Go vote. Everyone vote. Okay. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace. Imagine trying to bake a cake without a recipe or an oven or any kitchen utensils.

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All right. So I'm going today. Okay. And this is a story that I've been planning on doing for months at this point. And just so happens that this week, a little documentary about it came out on Hulu. So that was really exciting. Today's story is about a beloved mother, wife, and sister whose poisoning death ultimately divided her grieving family. This is the story of the death of Mary Yoder. And I wasn't gonna watch the documentary at first because I saw that the person who was convicted for this crime is a talking head on it

and that's always a little bit like, suspish. But I started it and it's fucking good and deep and not what I thought it would be. The documentary is called Little Miss Innocent on Hulu. And other main sources for this story are an episode of Forensic Files 2 called The Letter and an episode of Dateline called Poisoned. And the rest can be found on our show notes. Is there a Forensic Files 2 like, oh, the newest version? I guess it's Forensic Files 2, yeah. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I didn't realize that either. I feel like I remember that like a new Forensic Files was coming out, but I didn't realize that's what they were calling it. Do? Yeah. Again, Forensic Files, again. Okay, so we're in Utica, New York, right? I don't know what it's like.

It's picturesque. I'm sure it's pretty. I think my ex is from there. It's a small city between Syracuse and Albany, which are also small cities. And the year is 2015, so recent. Bill and Mary Yoder are both chiropractors in their early 60s, and they have a practice together. The couple's been married for almost 40 years.

They have three adult children, two daughters and a son. And the Yoders are well-known in small town Utica because their chiropractic clinic is very highly regarded, very popular. They're kind of just known as salt of the earth people, you know, hardworking, normal people, very normal. Yeah. Okay. Mary had grown up nearby in upstate New York and is one of eight kids.

She's close with her family, especially her sisters. She loves the outdoors and is active in her community. She's in her 60s. She's such the mom that your friend has that makes you wanna go to your friend's house all the time because the mom is so wonderful and lovely and smart and bright and shiny. You know what I mean?

It's rough for us. She and Bill met in college. They had their first two kids, daughters, Liana and Tamarin when they were in their early 20s. And then they have their youngest child, Adam, 10 years later, so like the precious baby when Mary is in her early 30s. So Adam is doted on by the family, especially his big sisters who think of him as their baby.

When Adam becomes an adult, he starts to work with his parents at their clinic, their chiropractic clinic doing clerical work, close family. And then later on, Adam's girlfriend, Caitlin, takes over his role. So Adam and Caitlin have an on-again, off-again relationship. They're just like these two young attractive people who are very very into each other. And she is very close with his family obviously. She works with them. Mary's her boss so she's very close with her. Mary who is 60 years old is known by everyone as quote the picture of health. And you see these

photos and she's like bright and shiny. Yeah. Looks like a healthy beautiful woman. She takes impeccable care of her body. She runs fucking triathlons. Yeah, that's 60. Yeah, I'm gonna do that then too Yes, you will eventually you're gonna build up to it. I don't need to do it now, right? She only like no one gives a shit if a fucking 40 year old runs a triathlon It's not an accomplishment when you're 40. It's an accomplishment when you're 60. Exactly. I'll wait. She like eats super healthy. She takes tons of herbal supplements. She does the things, and this is what Allie wrote, she actually does the things that everyone tries to do but generally doesn't do.

How many supplements do you have in a drawer that you don't take? If I put them in the right vessel, maybe I'll start taking them. Yes, buy a new plastic thing to put the supplements into. I have so many plastic options to put the vitamins into the microplastics to leach into the supplements. Or throw into the sea for the great Pacific garbage patch. This life. Mary was better than us.

Yeah. So here we are, July 20, 2015. Mary is working with patients at her chiropractic clinic. In the afternoon, she starts to feel sick to her stomach. She has to run to the bathroom repeatedly. So she goes home early where she gets sicker and sicker with symptoms you wouldn't get with just a stomach virus or food poisoning. Like it's extreme. Her legs start to swell and her skin is discolored, almost greenish. And so she goes to the emergency room the next morning, and she's admitted to the hospital,

which, like, what an excruciating night. Yeah. Terrifying. Doctors first wonder if it's one of the supplements Mary has been taking that made her ill, because, you know, you get these and you, who the fuck? There's no FDA approval with supplements. Do you know that?

Do you know that? Yeah. You can double check that. Kind of a lie. My emphatic, yes. I think that's true. No, I don't think they have to be. Yeah, FDA does not approve dietary supplements. At all?

Nope. That's not correct. That's why you stick to the ones you know. Yeah. So then on her second night in the hospital, Mary starts to maybe be doing a little better, but then the next morning her condition deteriorates even further. Her organs start to fail. They don't know what to do.

They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. They don't know what to do. The second night in the hospital, Mary starts to maybe be doing a little better, but then the next morning, her condition deteriorates even further. Her organs start to fail.

They don't know what is going on. She goes into cardiac arrest multiple times. Doctors are able to revive her each time she regains consciousness. She's intubated, but she mouths, I love you to her poor family. And then finally she goes into cardiac arrest one more time and doctors are not able to revive her. So it's just a sudden onset of this awful, horrific issue. They go to the hospital and come out and she's dead.

Like, it's just really, really tragic. Everyone's in a state of shock over this. No one can figure out what would have killed Mary so quickly, you know. She's young and vibrant. So an autopsy's performed and the medical examiner looks at Mary's cells under a microscope and can see that they appear to have been in a state called apoptosis, which is the process by which cells die. And so this is normal to some degree in the human body, but in Mary, it's happening on a level that we would expect

from someone who is undergoing, like, chemotherapy. Like, it's not extreme. And so the only other reason that one would see this level of apoptosis in someone's cells is if that person had been poisoned. I feel like if I go to the hospital, it's my fucking first thing. Like, I don't care if I just, like, eat old sushi.

I'd be like, check and see if I'm getting poisoned by someone, you know? That would be your directive to the people. Yeah. Yeah. Is that a true fear of yours? I'm not crazy about it. I mean, that someone would actually do it, though. No.

But, you know, it's the same with, like, walking down the stairs in front of someone. It's just, like, not my favorite thing to do. I mean, well, also, just in, it's the same with like walking down the stairs in front of someone. It's just like not my favorite thing to do. I mean, well, also just in this woman's case where she has taken, she's gone out of her way, worked very hard obviously, and taken such great care of herself. It's like this terrible irony and just shocking, like must have been so horrible. Yeah, and they interview the sisters in this documentary and it's just so out of nowhere, it's devastating. They can't believe it. So after hearing about Mary's symptoms, a director at the poison control center suggests

testing for a drug called Colchicine. Have you heard of it? No. I don't know. Your mom is a nurse. But it is very rare. It's a fucking drug you wouldn't have heard of unless you needed it. Yeah.

I've never heard of that, but I could absolutely hear my mother talking about, like, if you keep talking, I'm going to go into apoptosis. She was more of that person than drug brands themselves. Oh, it's dramatic. Well, this drug, colchicine, is used to treat gout. So it's very specific. And it's very hard to get. There's a lot of hoops you have

to jump through to get it. It stops the process of cell division. And so people who take it, take very small amounts and they're monitored extremely closely by their doctors to prevent exactly what has happened to Mary because it's fucking toxic. It's very toxic. The medical examiner who by the way is like, he's our new Paul Holes, but like kind of like rough around the edges hot. Like kind of, you know, got the bald thing and the beard, which is like obviously my thing. So the medical examiner runs the test on this last vial of Mary's blood that they have.

They find high levels of colchicine, much higher than what like a person would take who's even prescribed it, you know? So when the medical examiner gets these results, he calls Liana, Mary's daughter, who's in her 30s, and she's a doctor, and she's just baffled. She knows it's a gout medication and she doesn't understand why it would be in her mother's system. Also, if someone were to be prescribed colchicine, they'd have to take 30 to 40 pills to overdose the way Mary did.

And like she was at work while this happened. You know, if they were suspecting that she took her own life, she would have been at home. It just like, it wasn't adding up. No. So investigators test all the herbal supplements Mary was taking to rule out the possibility that they had been contaminated because the FDA doesn't give a fuck. And all of those tests come back negative.

Now investigators are almost certain that Mary has been poisoned. So the Yoder family is in complete shock. They can't think of anyone who would want to kill their beloved mother. Mary's daughter Tamarind describes the state of disbelief she was in when the truth of what happened to her mom came into focus saying, quote, there aren't even words for it. Your world flips upside down and nothing makes sense. And then like they know someone's out there who targeted their mother. Yeah.

The most bizarre mystery. Right. Yeah. So this whole testing process takes some time. So it's now October, about three months after Mary's apparent poisoning, when investigators start trying to figure out who poisoned her. So first investigators are beginning to scrutinize the obvious suspect, Bill Yoder, Mary's husband. Bill and Mary seem to have a generally good relationship.

But a few months after Mary's death, the rest of Mary's family are shocked when they find out that Bill and one of Mary's sisters has started dating. And she's got like four or five sisters and he starts dating one of them. That's weird. Yeah. But it's also like a grieving widow and a grieving sister and they find each other and come together. It's possible.

It's obviously possible. It's just kind of... It's in bad taste. Yeah, and you'd think it would feel bad. Totally. For the sister at least. Absolutely. Yeah. So this ultimately drives the other three of Mary's sisters to suspect that Bill did it.

And they cut off contact with that sister as well. Yeah. Which is like, if they had nothing to do with it, it's kind of heartbreaking. The whole thing's heartbreaking. Yes. They're all going through this in this terrible moment of grief. Like I think you're right, their worlds are turned upside down. So everything that's happening after that point is kind of like, it's chaos. And when the daughters find out like their dad is a suspect,

who they love, they're like, are we supposed to spend Christmas with him? Like, what are we supposed to do? And so police confirmed from Bill's calls and texts that the relationship with the sister began after Mary's death. So they were able to confirm that. It wasn't like they weren't having an affair.

That's a bit of comfort, yes. And Bill's daughters say that their father was devastated to lose their mom. They were a very close couple. It does seem like that. Some people allegedly get a bit of an ick from Bill, but that's just like hearsay after the fact. Who the fuck knows? Yeah.

Who are those people? Well, a lot of the people from the town are interviewed in this documentary, like locals. They're fucking amazing and they're gold. And everyone has a different opinion. And we can't talk about this with our other friends because everyone thinks this person did it or that person did it. It's like, it divides the town. Right.

Also, right now, if somebody made a documentary about you and just like, they just interviewed a bunch of people to see, what do you think? What's the word? Like, I just imagine that, like, the people that live on my street, most of whom I don't know, but they just be like, yeah, she's weird and she's like, she only hangs out with her dogs. Yeah, like the Starbucks person that you're perfectly friendly with and you go in every day, but like they have some gripe because Starbucks is hard and like you'd never know. And then Bill also gives permission to the police to search the chiropractic office and they take computers, records, and a typewriter as evidence.

So then in December of 2015, two identical letters appear at both the medical examiner's office and at the sheriff's office. So the pathologist who conducted the autopsy on this case, he's in this documentary, he's our new Paul Holes, but if you're into like, you know, kind of gruff bald head beard, which clearly that's my thing. His name is Dr. Clark, and he's great because he says the F word a ton in this documentary, like unnecessarily, and it made me love him so much. You know what I mean? But just like

that, like, in the perfect place exactly where it belonged, he dropped the F word. And was it because he was kind of like passionate about the case? And that's cool. He was like baffled. Like, where the fuck is this coming from? So the sheriff's office gets a letter and the letter is typewritten that says that Mary's 25-year-old son, Adam, killed his mother. It's anonymous. It says that the two of them had not been getting along and that Adam believed he would receive money if his mother died.

The letter also specifically names the Colchicine as the poison, which had not been widely reported. There's just like, she was poisoned, they didn't say with what. And it says that Adam put the colchicine into one of her supplement capsules, like the one she would take anyways, and that he had been able to order the colchicine through the chiropractic clinic because it's really hard to get and you have to be, you know, a medical person have like your tax ID number. It's really complicated. I mean, that's a lot of very specific information.

Yes, clearly someone knows details about this. It also says that the colchicine bottle is still on the floor of his Jeep. And so Adam is called in for questioning, and investigators ask if they can look in his car. He consults with a lawyer. The lawyer is like, you should let them do it. He agrees to do it.

He's standing there smoking a cigarette as they search his like messy, you know, 20-something year old dude car with fast food boxes and shit everywhere. And among the littered garbage on the floor of the passenger side of his Jeep, investigators find a labeled Colchicine bottle. I mean, now we're kind of learning, like, to me, the vibe of circumstantial evidence. Or usually it's like you hear about that and then you feel argumentative, curiously, like, but they found it there. And it's like, this feels like a setup.

Right. Exactly. It feels like a setup. Anyone could be like, oh, you should definitely look over here for the one thing that will definitely prove he did it. Right. Yeah. It's still there. Somehow I checked it today.

It's still there. And he also had a, like his passenger side of the door wouldn't lock and like people knew that so like anyone could get in there. And he like allowed them to look through the car. Why, you know, why would you keep that evidence? Yeah. And you would know it was there. Obviously you would be aware.

So then you would take it out before you would say yes. there. Obviously you would be aware. Of course. So then you would take it out before you would say yes. A long time ago. Burn that shit. There's also a receipt for the Colchicine with an email address that contains Adam's name. It's like his name, 1990, whatever. Oh, wow.

Just clearly very specific and obvious. An investigator from the Oneida County Sheriff's Department watches Adam while his jeep is being searched. And he says, quote, I wanted to see his reaction. And I can recall him smoking a cigarette, and the cigarette almost fell out of his mouth, like he was in such shock of what we had pulled out of his truck, end quote. And he consulted a lawyer, too. Yeah.

Adam says the email address on the receipt is not his real email and that someone is trying to frame him. Investigators are inclined to agree with him because there's no real reason for him to poison his mother and kill her. Then drive around with the bottle and the receipt in his car for five months, then tell someone about it, and then drive to the sheriff's office for questioning with it still in the car. Like, that's absurd.

The thing is, there's a very limited amount of people who would A, know about the actual poison, the colchicine, then who would have enough access to Mary to like slip it to her, and who would have been able to set Adam up. Like that, they narrowed it down very well. So this puts the attention back on the husband Bill. For Bill and Mary's other two daughters,

this whole situation is totally devastating. Liana says, quote, you feel like all of a sudden somebody dropped you in the middle of hell and you can't find your way out. And every time you get a new answer it's worse. Because if it's the father, that means the father tried to set up their brother the son. And that's awful. Or if it's the son, then they, you know, like, it's their brother. So they're terrified. They get, like, security guards. They can't sleep at night. There's someone out there who killed their beautiful mother. Yeah. And then their family is imploding in all these different levels and ways. It's

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and use code MFM at checkout. Goodbye. So investigators turn their attention to the letters they received. Both the letters and the addresses on the envelopes appear to have been written on the typewriter, which is obviously rare for 2015, except for if you're fucking... Nerdy friends. Right. Or if you're Taylor Swift's boyfriend. I don't know.

Travis Kelce? No. Tortured Poets Department is not the type of room. I was like, do you know so much about Travis Kelce that you know like his, his... You don't know? The way he writes letters. He loves an Underwood. He loves a vintage Underwood. He's so retro. He's a real Luddite.

But there was a typewriter in Bill and Mary's chiropractic office. Remember, they took it. And so the investigators take apart the typewriter. They look at the ribbon. Did you fucking know this? It contains the ink that is pushed onto the paper by the keystrokes, and the key leaves a white imprint on the black ribbon of the letter that was typed. Yes.

Did you know that? Yeah. It's like they're just doing a carbon copy of what you're writing. Kind of. That's how old I am. I used to write on typewriters. I remember when my sister got an electric typewriter, it was like we were like going crazy. Wow. Like, can I do it? Can I do it? We were like that fucking old. But yeah, if you look at the ribbon, you can see what you just typed, I guess, backwards or is that like a camera? Anyway.

No, that makes sense. I didn't know that. So it's kind of like something like a Perry Mason episode that the potential killer would have benefited from watching because they clearly fucked this up. Ali wrote that. So the investigators unspooled the ribbon and on it they clearly see the addresses that were typed onto the envelope. Like clearly this is the typewriter that was used to write those letters. So that means someone in the office who had access to that typewriter in the office wrote those letters. So only four people had regular access to that typewriter. Mary, herself the victim, Bill her husband, Adam the son, and the office's receptionist. A 22-year-old woman named Caitlin Connolly. And it turns out she's also Adam's on-again, off-again

girlfriend that I mentioned earlier. So when police bring Caitlin in for questioning, she immediately admits that she was the one who wrote the letters, which is like, suspish. But she insists that it was Adam who poisoned Mary. She was just trying to get him caught. And she says she only knows what the culture scene is, because Adam had once mentioned it to her. And Caitlin says she's afraid

of Adam and that it is Adam who's trying to frame her. I will say that when she was interviewed in the documentary, she had a lot of allegations against Adam that were very abusive, including sexual assault. She went to the police about it and there's no reason not to believe what she's saying. And they have like evidence because they have the voicemails he left her that are clearly like unhinged and we've all been in those relationships in our 20s that are like so sick and toxic. So they have proof that that is true, that it was a toxic relationship and he was seemingly mentally and physically abusive towards her.

So the medical examiner believes that Mary ingested the colchicine at around noon on that day she got sick. And that day, Adam had been 300 miles away in the Hamptons visiting his older sister. And Caitlin had been at the office with Mary that day. And she had access to the kitchen where Mary was keeping her lunch. So then there's the email address, which is Mr. Adam Yoder, 1990 at Gmail. Investigators look at Adam's computer and devices and it seems like he is being honest there's no record of him ever having logged into that address. And I mean, you can make an email address

with anyone's fucking name. Right. Right. Right? But Caitlin's personal computer at her home does show her creating and logging in to that email account. Oh, okay. And it appears that she logged into it from the computer at the chiropractic clinic as well, like when they knew she was there.

And there's also records on her phone. And I mean, this is just like, to me, it's like, what more do you need? She's searching information about Colchicine. You know? Yeah. So, Caitlin is brought back for a second round of questioning. And at this point, the police see no other possibility than that Caitlin poisoned Mary, but they have no idea what her motive would be.

To a large extent, we really don't get a satisfactory answer on this, which I think leaves a lot of people questioning why she did it, and that maybe means she didn't do it. She had no motive, you know? Most people who believe Caitlin killed Mary theorize that it was either trying to hurt Adam or to get him back together with her. Yeah. And the anonymous letters blaming Adam were sent after they had broken up again.

But Caitlin never confesses. The closest she comes is that she admits that she bought the prepaid gift cards, like a Visa gift card, that were used to purchase the Colchicine, which is such a... Just one step away from... Right. Yeah. There's also some people who speculate that Caitlin was just trying to get Mary sick. So you know, Adam would run back to her, she'd be involved in the family again, you know,

maybe some kind of Munchausen by proxy type of thing, which is dose her way too hard and poison her. But you don't give someone 30 to 40 pills and not expect something bad to happen. There's also a lot of people who just can't wrap their heads around Caitlyn doing this, her whole family, but at first also the entire Yoder family also thinks there must be some mistake. Ultimately, most of those people wind up convinced by the evidence that she did it, but those three of Mary's sisters, the ones who can't forgive Bill for entering into a relationship

with their other sister, and of course, Caitlyn's family never believed that Kaitlin did it. They're on her side completely. And it's so creepy to watch her be interviewed. From the evidence, there's no way she's not lying about at least 10 things. But she's so convincing and so calm about it and emotional about losing Mary. Like it just, she can't be completely innocent. There's no fucking way. You mean just because of all the actual proof and evidence that's there? Yeah.

Yeah. But if she is, then I mean, shame on all of us, you know? Not me. Not you. Not me for sure. So four months later in early 2016, Caitlin, now 23, is charged with second-degree murder. And at the trial, Mary's patients from the morning she became sick testified that she seemed fine that morning.

Her patients from after lunchtime testified that she seemed unwell. And everyone says Kaitlin was the only other person in the office that day. A sales representative from the company that supplied the Colchicine testifies that she spoke on the phone about the order with a young woman. And it looks like she, like from what I've heard, jumped through a lot of hoops to get these. And so it kind of, there's just more and more evidence pointed to her because she had to try so hard because it's so hard to get.

Which is so weird that like she would specifically hone in on that drug when there's probably other ones that would be easier to get. So the defense puts forward the theory that Bill, Mary's husband, killed her and tried to frame his own son. And their only evidence for this is that he's currently in a relationship with Mary's sister. Like that's what they use as the evidence. They have one witness, a neighbor who claims that their relationship started before Mary died, even though the phone records don't back this up.

They argue that Bill had access to Kaitlyn's computer and typewriter and that if the culture scene was shipped to the office, it would have had Kaitlyn's DNA on it because she handled all the mail that came into the office. They don't explain why Kait Caitlin wrote the letters blaming Adam, which she admits to, if in fact it was Bill who killed Mary. Which I think gives a lot of people, especially like locals, to like start assuming some nefarious thing between Caitlin and Bill maybe or someone framing someone,

like making it more complicated than it is. But it is still like, well, what's the motive? Yeah, it's complicated enough as it is, unless the motive is revenge for the things that she claimed that Adam did to her. But then, so I'm going to poison your mother. That's very odd. So after four days of deliberations, the jury deadlocks and Kaitlin has to be tried all over again.

This time the prosecutors make basically the same case with some additional evidence from a backup of Kaitlin's phone that was unearthed between the two trials. On this backup, there are records of Kaitlin searching for information on other poisons, including arsenic, thallium, and cyanide, before looking into colchicine. You can't do that. Well, there you have it, kind of. It's like then it stops being so obscure and weird, and then it's like this is a person who's looking to poison somebody. Totally. Caitlin is a new lawyer for the second trial who puts forth the theory that Adam, the son,

killed Mary, not Bill, the husband. He argues that Adam could have used Kaitlin's devices to order the culture scene or that he could have hacked the devices. Kaitlin's defense team points out that Adam had been abusive during their relationship. Adam admits to this on the stand. So the jury deadlocks again after two days of deliberation and the judge this time is like, please fucking keep trying, you need to go back in. And so after two hours of additional deliberations they find Kaitlin guilty of manslaughter but not guilty of second-degree murder. And she's

sentenced in January of 2018 to 23 years in prison and she's 24 at the time. Wow. Kaitlin has recently been granted the opportunity to appeal her case after previous attempts had been rejected. And those three sisters of Mary's still don't accept Kaitlin's guilty verdict. I still think Bill did it. But the rest of the Yoder family believe she killed Mary. And that is the story of the poisoning death of Mary Yoder.

I'm so mad at you right now. I cannot believe that's worse than a cold case. Oh, yeah. Because it's like, I understand that that family is like, that's a terrible rift that like, the sisters basically were forced into a reality that they hated and didn't want to be in, and it was, you know, like the daughter described. Like, they were in hell and it just kept getting worse. But that idea that the evident, literal evidence, factual evidence is piling up over here.

And you're like, nope, it's him because of this damage and trauma that all of this kind of accrued. It's just worst case scenario in every way. I mean, if it is as it seems and Caitlin did it and Bill and the sister like, you know, bonded over their grief, everyone's life is still destroyed. You had nothing to do with it. Right. Right. Right. And it's just so tragic.

But you wish she would fucking admit it with all that evidence there. It's so unsatisfying that she won't, you know. Well, right. Like, what is actually going on is the, that's my anger toward you, is what is actually going on here and why can't something more be revealed about it because Like she killed a person like she murdered a person that she was basically like very close to For seemingly no reason. Yeah, and then almost like that's Being used to distance her from from what the evidence says she did.

Right. Because, you know, if you really pin it on the husband, he had more of a motive than this random girlfriend, ex-girlfriend did. But it doesn't make sense that he, it doesn't fit. But did he? Because I think, didn't the relationship that happened with the sister happen because of the loss and the grief? Yes. But people are assuming it happened before and like nobody knew about it. And like, you

know, life insurance policy, all that bullshit, but it doesn't. God, that's weird. Don't you want to know? Yeah. Watch the documentary because you try so hard, it's called Little Miss Innocent on Hulu, and you try so hard when she's talking on camera to like look for the lie and to look for the tell and to understand how someone could do such a thing and then like convince themselves so much that they didn't do it that they're able to bullshit their way with smart people

in the room. So, you know? Yeah. I think that's when that happens oftentimes is people aren't bullshitting and they didn't have to convince themselves of anything because they're completely in their mind Separate separate rooms separate things. It didn't happen. Yeah, like that is Seems like the way a lot of people are able to kind of hold that it's not like acting like you and I were It's like we got to get away with this and we've got to convince somebody. It's not like it's the truth for that person. Because we don't do that. Also, I found out recently, speaking of that, that I've been

saying disassociation and it's that's not the right word. Dissociation. Yep. Yeah. My therapist corrected me in therapy. You should fire that therapist. It'd be like you just traumatized me. Dissociate. I have been saying disassociation this whole time. That's what she was doing. I've been saying library. Look, we're all human beings. That was, I am so mad. What's

going to happen? Like it feels like there's another shoe that's going to drop on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they're already to the documentary stage. The fucking all 10 toes on the ground already. Whew. I know. I know. Well, great job.

Thank you. Great, frustrating job. Compelling content. That's what we're all looking for these days. Podcasts need compelling content. Everyone knows. Oh, man. What a great short one where it's like,

it's going to be short, but it'll drive you out of your mind. Yes, like pay attention the entire time. Yeah. All right, well let's do a couple. What are you even doing right now is to kind of dismount from this. To disassociate from? To disassociation from it. Dissociate, right? Dissociate.

Oh, Jesus. I mean, so many conversations and parties that I've had that I've used that word and people, no one's told me. Oh, they don't care and they didn't remember because they're thinking about how weird they were at that party. Were they also like, oh, shit, have I been wrong this whole time? Could be, or they're like, I don't even know what that word means. Okay. Right?

Yeah. Okay, I'm going to take it. I give a shit. I'm not known for my fucking vocabulary. That's not part of my persona. Have you heard about the rising sea levels? It does not matter. The FDA doesn't fucking check your vitamin C.

I take so many supplements sometimes. None of them have been checked. Right. Exactly. All right. Well, let's see. My first one is from the MFM Gmail. It says, what are you even doing right now? What am I even doing? That's a great way to start it.

I love it. Like, how dare you ask? I, as a 22-year-old, am learning to prioritize my peace and spending my night listening to you guys while crocheting Halloween stuff to sell at a market. You guys have inspired me to do what I love and put myself first. Thank you, Isabelle. I love that. I do, first. Thank you, Isabelle. I love that. I do too. Good job, Isabelle. The whole reframing of I'm doing nothing to I am taking care of myself and finding my peace.

Yes. You know, I love that. Yeah. Good job, Isabelle. Beautiful. This one is from Instagram from joecoil8. Joe Coy, the stand-up comic? Joy Cole. Oh? Joy Cole. Oh, Joy Cole.

Eight. What are you even doing right now? Drinking a beer at 10 a.m. in the Denver airport because there wasn't coffee on the menu and not noticing the coffee on the menu until right after I ordered my beer. Smiley face. Perfection.

That's a perfect what are you doing right now. It's the only place you can drink at 10 a.m. is the airport. You can drink at 6 a.m. at the airport. You're at the airport. There's no time. There's no rules. Time's gone. It's all gone out the window.

Do your thing. Also, because truly no one's judging you at the airport at all. We've all had our nightmares at the airport. It's just too hard to be there. Also, everything is too hard right now. It's so hard. It's hard. Everything's hard.

Have a beer. Have a beer, then have a cup of coffee, and then go back to another beer. That's called the Irishman's, Poor Irishman's Cocaine. Really? No. You couldn't tell I was making that up as I was stumbling through. I could, but I was really hoping for it. Poor Irishman's cooking.

Okay, one more. Yeah. This says, what are you even doing right, this is a subject line, what are you even doing right now? Plum cake jump scare. And then it says, what am I even doing right now? Sitting in my local pub trivia bar, waiting for the game to start and trying to finish up listening to George's

story about Nanny Doss, the giggling granny who poisoned people with plum cake. And then in parentheses it says, a food I did not know existed until today. Only to look up at the bar's food menu, which changes weekly and audibly gasp at today's dessert German plum cake. And then it says life is a simulation. You ladies are my favorite part of it. Love ya by Zoe. It really is.

It is. I love those little winks from the universe. When have you ever seen plum cake in the wild? I've eaten it at my grandma's house after she made it, and that is it. I mean, that's, I love, Zoe, good one. I love that. I wonder if the baker is a murderino though. That was my first thought.

It's like go to the bar and like talk to the fucking baker. You're saying we program the simulation. We're in charge of reality. It's actually our fucking simulation that you're fucking in. Welcome to the simulation, bitches. And what are you even doing right now, innit? Because we are controlling it. I think that's good, right? I think so. That was a nice final plum cake jump scare. That's right. Button. Think of all the plum cakes we're gonna get when we go on tour again backstage. Oh. And I'll eat them all even

though someone warned us there could be blood in them. There could be anything in them. I'm fucking need it. Gout medicine for god's sake. I'm not eating it. Oh well anyway stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck. Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalace. Our researchers are Maren McClashen and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to MyFavorItMurder at gmail.com. Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at My Favorite Murder and Twitter at My Fave Murder. Goodbye!