My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 45- Funky Diva

Episode Date: December 1, 2016

In a traumatic night of unbelievable circumstance, this week’s My Favorite Murder features the story of Lord Lucan and the mystery of the Summerhill Road Murders.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. You go first. Welcome to my favorite murder.

The podcast that asked the question. What? Huh? Who put this on? Huh? This is not appropriate. No. Murder?

What murder? How dare you? What is wrong with you girls? How dare you like this? My sensibilities are offended. I'm offended in my sensibility area. I'm offended in the face. I'm offended religiously.

In my mouth. Morally. In the mouth. Yeah. In the nose and throat. In the nose and throat. Virtually. In the nose and throat.

In the eyes. Banes. Spinal fluid. Heart. Heart. Not the spine, just the spinal fluid. Spleen. So this is the anatomy podcast.

Yes. We can name over 10 things in your body. Congratulations to us. Yay. That's Georgia. That's Karen. And we're here to talk to you about all of our favorite things we like the most, which is true crime.

Yeah. Welcome. If you don't like it, later days. Is the wrong P-cast for you, bro. P-cast. I saw that from Vince. I don't want to take credit for that. Is the wrong P-cast pie for you, friend.

Yeah. Get another P-cast. It's funny that, isn't it funny, Karen, if you reflect, I was peeing today as you do and I was reflecting. Sure. As I do. As you're forced to. Right.

And I was thinking about how funny it is that this like thing that we've been obsessed with and secretly in love with and certain, like, is our, kind of going to be our career. It's pretty nice to think that little Karen was right about at least one thing. It's a pretty good feeling. Yeah. Because she fucked up a ton of stuff. I just keep accidentally falling into like, not fucking up. Yeah.

You know? That's nice. Yeah. Is that, you mean in later life? Yeah. Like. We got our fucked up stuff out of the way early. Yeah.

Like, how do I think what you're supposed to do? Yeah. We're lucky because like 20, well, by 25, I was like, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. By 27, I was like, well, I didn't die, so I'm going to stop doing all those things now. Yeah.

There's no, there's no going down from, from being a rehab at 14. I still love that. I like to think of you in a big pair of orange junko jeans, just being like, hey, do you have a clove or whatever, just like so different, ooh, sorry. That's a, that's little 14-year-old Georgia and she appears out of a puff of smoke in back in orange junko. Is it Jinko? I thought it was, I don't know.

I'm sure it's different everywhere. I'm too old to even really know. It's not my reference. Thank God. I never wore those. I did wear vinyl pants to raves. Did you? Weren't they hot?

Uh-huh. Tight? Never washed them. Gross. I know. Uh-huh. Uh, was there some benefit to not wash them? Like, were they easier to put on next time?

I just don't know how one would wash vinyl or leather pants. Oh. Yeah, you just have to throw them away. Yeah. And start over. Totally. Totally. Where do you get vinyl pants?

There is this, you remember when Melrose Avenue was like the fucking coolest place in the world? Yeah, I do actually. That was like our, we would save up money throughout the year in Orange County and make a pilgrimage to fucking Melrose. Yeah. That was my first job when I moved to LA, like at 6, that 17 was like on Melrose at like one of those clothing stores.

What's that? Funky Diva. Literally, it was called Funky Diva. Funky Diva. I'm positive I shopped at Funky Diva. I bet you came in. Tons of, tons of chokers. Yes.

Wouldn't that be amazing if right now we could see security camera footage of me and you having some kind of rude exchange at Funky Diva? I just have to be rude. Because I'm rude. That's all I was doing back then was rudeness. Oh my god. Rudeness, rudeness, friends. Foes didn't matter.

I love it. It was a lot of arched eyebrows and a lot of, uh, anyway. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What I'm enjoying these days is people on Twitter trying to show that they mean, I'm sorry the way you say it. They're trying to do it in the writing.

Yeah. So sometimes it's all caps, I'm, and then sorry. Sometimes it's reversed. Like how do you actually put that into? I would do all caps, I'm. But the some girl, did you see that on Instagram, I put up a photo of some girl who wrote like, there was like a musical bar and it had the like, I'm sorry, it was like how one would play it.

You could sing it. Yeah. And she had to like, she must have been a musician. I wish I could, but yeah. That's genius. Sorry. Do you ever like, do you get like self-conscious about the things you say here that become a thing like that where you're like, I would say that anyways, but now it sounds like I'm

pandering. Yes. It feels like you're trying to make some kind of an infographic for totally here's your favorite. Like someone at the live show, text afterwards, like not text, but like put on like, I was really hoping you'd call someone a sweet baby angel. I'm like, well, I don't, I don't call anyone that because I don't want to sound like, well, you guys.

Yes. You don't. Yeah. It's not like you're, that's your tag tagline catch phrase tag catch line phrase. You're not going to tag anybody with that phrase. My problem is I cannot believe, I don't, I cannot believe that I still say literally so much. It is literally the worst habit of all time.

I say it when I'm like kind of trying to explain something to you and I'm really like really trying to convey something. I'll say literally like seven times. It's awful. I haven't noticed it. I don't pay attention to anyone but myself, so I wouldn't know. Good plan. Good plan.

Yeah. Yeah. Nobody cares. Yeah. Nobody gives a shit about you, about yourself and your cats. It's nice to be, we, by the way, we had such an incredible time in Chicago. Yay. We, I mean, it was not so, we, I'm speaking for both of us now.

I'm speaking for the Royal Week. I had a horrible time. Yeah. Georgia did not enjoy herself. We, the Karen, it was so crazy to walk out. As I explained to my sister and you and our whole, all of our people afterwards, I said, I anticipated a certain amount of applause and we got like 15 times more than what I anticipated.

How many, I've seen so many like a couple of friends have texted me and I've seen a couple of tweets and things like that. They got so emotional when they heard the applause of us come like, yeah, people keep saying that. What a bunch of nice people. I know. Thank you for clapping. I know.

It just is neat. It's so neat. It's really neat. I think we're a little overwhelmed at how neat it is and how neat everything is and we're trying to process it. Yeah. And we're just happy, it's so flattering and we're happy and we want to thank each and every one of you, which I think we did after the show.

We stood there and thank fucking God. We fucking thanked you all to your face. I hugged so many people and thank the Lord. Nobody was weird. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. I was really waiting for like somebody with some scissors up their sleeve or something

and everybody did great. My mom sat to the side in a chair with a beer and just watched. It was like an hour and a half. It was so long. And she watched the entire thing. So did my sister and Adrian and Audrey. After a little while, Audrey came over and just started taking pictures of us taking pictures with people because she was so excited.

Everybody was thrilled about it. But we did want to thank Tyler Green and Jonathan Pitts are the two people who put the Chicago podcast festival together and they made it happen for us. And for everybody who is there and we want to thank them so much because they did an amazing job. Yeah. It was so smooth and easy and great. And there was soda in the green room and there was a green room candy.

Yeah. We had a whole, we had a bag of treats. Yeah. That awesome. Do you know how much I fucking love like that? What do they call them when you leave a place and they give you a bag? An exit bag. Whatever.

I fucking like. I don't know. I don't know. It sounded right. Oh, like a swag bag. Swag bag. Yeah, yeah. I will go to a fucking party just for the swag bag.

Sure. Even if I could buy it myself. I will fucking like, you know, buy the shit in there. Did you just want a little present? Oh, I just want to like not, yeah, like presents. We also want to thank the staff of the, I never pronounce it right, but the Anthinium Theater, which is the 105 year old theater where we did our show where all those people were.

And that staff had to wait until we said hi to every single person practically. And so thank you guys so much for your patience and for being there for us and I actually, I have a business card of the man who really arranged that lobby situation and I meant to bring it to say his name specifically. The dude who stood there and took every photograph. He like would, he was like hand me your camera. It was, they were so great. They were so nice and the whole experience was just like pretty, I didn't really look

at you that much because I didn't want to have like, we weren't having that much personal experience because I didn't want to like either burst into tears. You can't look at me a lot in like emotional settings, I feel like you don't want to get emotional. I need to shut down in very specific ways and I can't, you know me, I can't open it back up or it'll be tears, tears, tears. Okay. Yeah.

God, we're so, we're so different. We're like opposite. We're like the opposite. Oh, speaking of live shows. So our Brooklyn bell house show is coming up, which I'm so excited about and this sold out. I thought I heard there might be some tickets available. Really?

Maybe. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. And then we have other shows coming up. So like this might be like a show thing, maybe once in a blue. So we're doing the riot LA show on Saturday, January 21st, I don't know. Those tickets, the pre-sale, there, we announced that this morning and then the actual tickets go on sale Friday.

So if you live in Los Angeles and you want to come to, it's going to be a good show. The riot show, that should be great. Yeah. Because that's the one at the Orpheum, right? I think so. Yeah. So it's another big old fashioned theater. Yeah.

Please help fill it out. So we don't feel stupid. Yeah. We don't want to feel stupid in our own city. Oh my God. Like around people that we know. Oh my God. And we keep talking about like, oh, in Chicago, they did this and that.

Pat our back, pat our back. And then we go to LA and it's like four people. Yeah. It's like your manager, my agent wouldn't go, who else would be there. Just judging us in the crowd. No one makes a giant Elvis fucking cut out face like they did in Chicago. Oh, I forgot. So a girl made.

Oh my God. I'm going to call her out because she was amazing. She took a picture of Elvis. She blew it up so it was bigger than a human head, like twice the size of a human head. And then she had it in front of her face. So when the lights came up and we were talking to people to get the hometown murder at the end. Yeah.

I saw this thing. I thought a girl dressed up like a furry, like dressed up like Elvis, it scared the shit out of me. I was genuinely scared of her, but she turned out she was just holding it in front of her face like, look, Elvis is here. You can find the photos on on Instagram or my favorite murder Instagram. Her name is Alex Graves and what a fucking angel baby. Like thank you so much.

Like that was so fucking cool. It was super cool. And I have photos of us with it. And I have this photo from my hotel room of me and we're having it in front of my face. It really does look like when you hold it up, it just looks like you're now a huge Siamese cat. It's creepy, but in the best way because I'm obsessed with this cat. Yeah.

Like he's sitting next to me right now. And I also have Siamese pajama pants on right now. You're living the life. Oh, I'm in deep. You're living that life. I have a parasite in my brain that just controls me and it's, and it's cat. It's from cats. Probably.

Right? Sure. That's real sad. Are you going to bring that cat head to New York so then you, so Elvis can be there too? It doesn't fit. It didn't fit in my bag. Shit. I'll tell you something.

And I feel really shitty about it. It's super huge. Did you have to leave stuff behind? Okay. I don't care. Okay. I know, but I know you don't. But I feel really bad.

So like, but it's kind of cute. So we took a photo of it and look in the hotel, then we were packing to leave in tonight. And then I was like, it doesn't fit. What do we do? And he was like, put it behind the couch in the hotel room. So I slipped it behind the couch at the fucking God free hotel in one of the rooms behind the couch is a fucking Elvis and it has this girl's info on it. Like not info info, but like, you know, Instagram and shit on it.

Yeah. Someone's going to find that. That's hilarious. You know what's interesting? I had brought a dress with me to Chicago that I bought in a panic at Target for $20. Didn't try it on. I was like, this is going to be a look address. Yeah.

I'm doing it. Fine. Grabbed it. Was it black? No, it wasn't black. Actually. It was like green and maroon and black, but it was kind of stripey and there was a lot going on.

When I got to Chicago and tried it on, it turned out it was Empire Waste, which makes me look because I have big boobs, so it made me look like I was in my third trimester. My sister's like, take it off. Anorexic girls are the only people who look good in them. You shouldn't be anorexic. Right. So, so no one. Nobody.

So that's why I went shopping and told that whole story. If you want to hear. It's not a good story. But it's on the phone. Are we going to, and we both wore black dresses, are we going to just, are we doing that from now on? Those are our show uniforms. Like the same dress or just black, any kind of black outfit.

I think we should keep it like any kind. Okay. Don't you? It means I have to go shopping because I literally own like three black things because I dress like a fucking schoolgirl or a grandma. Well, then you have 10 days. You have 10 days for me. And I love shopping.

Oh my God. Shopping is amazing. I love it. Okay. But I left that dress in our hotel room with a note that said you can have this if you want it. You should have returned it. Oh no.

To Target? Yeah. I returned it all the time to Target. I'd ripped. Anytime I buy something, I rip all the tags off of me. You do. See, I have, I'm claustrophobic and can't go in a changing room, so I just bring everything home and then return it all.

I think I don't go in a changing room because I don't want to see my back in one of those mirrors. I saw mine recently. My butt, like it had the mirror behind me. Like my mirror stops at like my, it's like my waist up. Yeah. Which is like the great area. Sure.

I look so hot from like behind in the waist up. With the back of your bra and everything. Yeah. It's like, oh, well now because I got that like fat pinch because I refuse to believe I'm bigger than. Everyone has that. That's human. I don't even see my fucking butt.

Right. Then when you're in one of those high tension dressing rooms. Yeah. So yeah. I just want to pretend that that's not true. I just like to think that there was a housekeeping lady who was just like, oh my God, I can't dress. I dress.

And I wrote on the note, never been worn. I hope she believed me. Anyhow, thanks, Chicago. We really love you. Yeah, Chicago. Do we have any other housekeeping? Uh, I'll give me, oh, my only thing is. Um, I had started watching a show called, did you start called the killing season?

No, but I need, I need to watch it. Okay. Yesterday. I haven't been hearing enough about it. Okay. I think we'll be the engine for that. I think so. Because I started watching it yesterday.

I had heard a little bit and so it's a series about the Long Island serial killer and I'd started that book so long ago and said I was going to do an episode about it. And this is one of the, the, the, the murder that, that I heard about beforehand is so fucking crazy. And I'm saying the girl who went to private privately dance for that dude. Yes. Who like, well, something happened. Yes.

The thing that like kicked it off. Amazing. Like it should be solvable based on that murder. Right. I love it. So this series is by the people, um, the two people, Joshua Zeeman and Rachel Mills. And they're the two people who did the documentary Cropsey that we recommended to everybody. Yeah.

That's super upsetting. Well, this is an A&E series. A&E is amazing. I love Cropsey because it's not corny. Like there's so many documentaries that are like corny. Right. Cropsey is not. No, no, it's just straight up scary.

Yeah. Um, well this series, it's called the killing season. It's on A&E. This is not an ad, by the way, in the middle, like we're not talking. This is real talking. Yeah. Now we have to say it's like that. Real talking corner.

Um, so I started watching it yesterday. And I ended up laying on my couch and watching six episodes straight through. And by the time I got to the six episode, I didn't, I needed to leave my house and be around human beings that I knew I would be safe with. Oh my God. Like that. It was very upsetting. And I don't have that.

Like normally I don't get that. And I really did. Like I went to the movies with Alison Agosti and then I told her she started it today and texted me today and was like, I cannot stop watching the killing season. Maybe I shouldn't watch it. I mean, I don't think Vince is going to want to watch it with me. It's really heavy. But the thing is that it starts with the Long Island serial killer and then it just expands

like the other just keeps going. Yeah. Because there's all these things connected. You have to see it. I'm fucking watching the shit out of that. Highly recommend if you haven't seen it. I did the same thing yesterday literally with, um, search party. Oh yes.

And now I'm like, I was like, I'm going to watch, um, I watched five minutes of the first episode and I was like, I'm going to save this for Vince because it's really good and it's going, and then I'm on episode like six now because I couldn't fucking, I couldn't stop. Like I did my nails because I wanted to sit in front of the GV and I can't sit in front of the GV without doing something. Right. So I'm like, my nails are nice.

My fucking laundry was folded out here, which I never liked. It was just, I folded laundry too. Oh my God. Yeah. You've got to do something. I have, I have, I watched one episode of search party and then I had to leave my house. I like had to be somewhere and I knew if I started the second one, I would not leave.

Ever character, John Early? Yeah. He is so fucking perfect every, there's like four main characters and they're just like the perfect exact people of who they're supposed to be. Yeah. And it's so, did you get the feeling to where when I saw the first episode, I got jealous that that's their like, oh, you're making this show already. Yeah.

Like I want this show. I do too. I was thinking about you writing that. I'm like, how stoked would you be if this was the show you were working on? Yeah. I want like a fucking, can I be someone's sister's friend's brother? No. No.

I want like a walk on role and y'all want you to write it. It's okay. Yeah. We'll come to them with a bunch of big ideas. So good. It's so good. Watch search party. Like it's so good.

And I think it's all on demand too, so you can binge the shit out of it. Yeah, you can. I think it feels like everything is that. It just, it feels like I would do what she's doing. Right. What's her? Aaliyah? Aaliyah Shakwat.

Shakwat. She is so cute. I bet you I didn't pronounce that right. Aaliyah. I don't know. She's so... It's maybe from a recipe development. Yeah.

She's the darlingest person I've ever seen. She's such a good actress too. Yeah. Oh my God. I'm so happy. So that's like TV corner? TV corner. I think that's all I have.

Merch corner, but we have merch. We have merch. My favorite, murdershirts.com and there's not just shirts. I made that up when we only had a shirt. Now I wish it was my favorite, murdermerch.com, but I can't do that. So... Well, yeah. You get the idea.

Now I have mugs and tank tops and totes and posters and the fucking... And the cool thing in Chicago, as each person walked up, we got to see another piece of merch in action. That was really exciting. Oh my God. My favorite were these two girls and one had a shirt on that said, I am a Karen and they said, I am a Georgia and remember the fucking over the week there was a fucking Buzzfeed quiz.

That's right. Am I a camera? Am I a Georgia? I mean... I mean... That was fucking ridiculous. Guys. But users can make those things up.

I know. It was totally like, it was a user who made them, but it was so good. Don't hate us. Like, yeah. We're not... We're not. We're not. We just aren't.

Just stop it because we're not. We're not. We don't think we are. We don't pretend to be. We never have and we don't. We won't. We won't. We promise we won't.

We are, but we're not. No. Like, we're just, you know? Yes. For sure. Okay. Woo. Glad they got that out of the way.

Oh, fuck. Can we do murders? I guess. Oh, Steven. Do you need a Steven check-in? Steven check-in. How are you, Steven? How are you, Steven?

My sister had a great time in Chicago. Yay. Oh, nice. And I didn't hang out with the cats. Thank you. When I go out of town, Steven takes over the Elvis and Mimi Instagram and it's like, I kind of need to pay you extra for like that because they're, it's so good. Yeah.

I was just thinking where I was during the show and I'm just like sitting here, petting Elvis. As it should be. Yeah. No, it was perfect. But my sister, she met a really nice murderino and her mom who's also a murderino and they got a picture with her and everything, which is really sweet. I love it.

I think her name was Lee or Leah or something like that, but it's very sweet. That's great. And my sister, like I was telling you, I was like, my sister needs to listen to my favorite murder because she was obsessed with Helter Skelter. I got her devil in the white city when she moved to Chicago. So it was just like, this is, this needs to happen. She's got all the materials. Yeah.

She has no excuses. No. Yeah. She's got to get into it. No. And we gave you, we called her sister, Ray Morris gave you a shout out. That's right. That was very sweet.

Someone needs to get a giant Steven Ray Morris cut out. That's great. That's the next one. Oh my God. No, that sounds like, I would never want to see my face like that. But it needs to be three times the size as the last one. She needed basically not be able to bring it in because they're like, you can't. Someone make a Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade balloon of Steven.

That would be perfect. If you don't mind. It would not be that big of a deal. I'll leave it behind a, a what? The couch. We'll leave it in the basement of a, the Holiday Inn. You just told everyone we're staying. No, we're not staying at a holiday.

I know. Not that we're going to, okay. Here we go. Nobody gives a shit. We're not. They know. No, we're not. We're not.

And we told you that. We never did. From the beginning. We said it before and we're going to say it again. We're not. Like you guys know. Please. If you don't know anything.

You have to know that. No, we know. Yes. We know when we're not. Three hours later, they're still doing that thing. We could keep moving it. Oh, here's me typing an email. Like you guys start the podcast.

No, fuck you. We've got to improv some more. Stop pissing Karen off. Elvis is leaving. He's like, fuck these bitches. You pissed me off. Then you pissed Elvis off. Then it's over.

Mimi's fine though. Oh yeah. Then this people gave us like Elvis and Mimi toys and they're like, they look like. Oh God. I'm going to lose my mind. Everyone's the best. We got nice presents. All right.

I love it. They're so good and nice. I know. I know it. What? I'm sorry. Here's the last one. The girl who, as she walked out, my sister and Adrian and Audrey like cried laughing

when I told the story. The girl who walked up like, Hey, you guys kind of all young and like she was doing weird things with her shoulders. So she's all kind of goofy. And then when she got in to take the picture, she goes, you guys, my, my dad killed his business partner and got away with it. Bye. Stay sexy.

She was just like this cute, like kind of sorority ish chick. Yeah. How are you guys? Yeah. And she did put her arm like, you know, when you're like talking to someone as the photo is getting taken. Yeah. Like all Sony like straight faced or whatever.

She was so excited about it. My dad killed his business partner and he got away with it. Bye. We were like, what? I've never been that starstruck in my life. No. Yeah. I was like email.

I wanted to give her my personal email account to just be like email us now. I said, say hi to your dad for me. It was, it was hilariously funny. That was gorgeous. It was a beautiful one. If you admit to other people's crimes to us in person, we'll mention you on the podcast. We will listen and we will shout it out. And we will be subpoenaed in the trial.

Yeah. No lying, please. All right. Should we start? I guess. I think. Now the homework part comes. No, I like my murder.

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What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candice DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton serial killer.

I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast, Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. So I have, because of watching the killing season and how heavy it is and how it feels like everyone in the world is a serial killer by the time you're halfway through with it,

which in some ways is a fun feeling. It's fun, isn't it? I like it. And yet you're still alive. We made it, everybody. So I switched over as a palette cleanser. I started watching The Crown, which is a wonderful Netflix series. It sounds British, is it British?

It's the story of Queen Elizabeth. I figured. God, I'm so smart. The newest one. Yeah. It's so in a way it is kind of a British procedural. Wait, it's the newest show about the crown, about, about like how she got, became the queen and what her life was like privately.

She's like a badass. She's a total badass. Yeah. There's parts in it. The Crown TV show to come out with their own book on how to be politely assertive because that's her. And also I want them to come out with the color of lipstick that she's wearing because it's this perfect shade of pinkish red that would actually look.

I can't wear red because my teeth are as yellow as little corn nibblets. You're very fair. I'm very fair with red in my skin. So red lipstick on me makes me look like I have been smoking crack in the alley. I look like a fucking, what do they call them, a rockabilly and it's obnoxious. Yeah. Well, this is like this muted brownish pink lipstick. I bet it's, I bet they make it for her.

If there's not even a thing you can fucking buy, you know what they, I bet they, well, we have a fucking lip gloss that was made for us too that that girl sent us. That's right. Remember? So the queen, I'm sorry. It's not that fucking special. But I want the queens because it, because we've started doing coke before. Back to being 14.

So as, so I blended into this very British kind of fancy regal area. Yeah. Like controlled. Yes. And aristocratic, which is, I mean, like if, if I was in that time, I would be like truly the dishwasher in the bottom part of the basement. Like, do you need a candlestick? But with an Irish accent, which for some reason I can't do right now.

So I decided that my murder is going to be that of the infamous, infamous story of Lord Lucan. Have you ever heard of him? I don't think so. Okay. This one's pretty good because it involves British aristocracy and a disappearance. Oh, you know, I love disappearances. All right.

So, um, and also I was going to do this story after, remember when we did Harmon Town and then we met that British couple outside on the street and they were on their honeymoon. Oh my God. They were so sweet. They were so sweet and they were just getting tattoos and they were having like this amazing honeymoon and they'd come to see us. And they didn't even ask for a photo, which is like, you know, Americans do that. Yeah.

They didn't want a photo. They kind of want us to go away a little bit, but they were like, hi, we came to see, we came from England to see you, which meant the world to me. We didn't get their names, but hi, shout out if you're still listening. Sweet angels. Pip, pip. Yeah. It wasn't a fucking panda to the audience when I said sweet baby angels, no, that was

natural. That felt very natural. So I was thinking of doing Lord Luke and after we met them of like, hey, this is shout out to you, but that was what six months ago or something. So I brought this word document back out and began to fill it out again. So here's the story of this guy. He it was born John Bingham. And he was born on December 18th, 1934 to an aristocratic family in Marleybone, which

is the funniest name for it's a neighborhood, I guess, in London. Oh, you're going to get, I don't care what you say next, you're going to get a correction about like what it is. Pronunciation, the area. It's in London. It's actually in Wales. It's not a neighborhood. It's a fucking.

It's fucking in New York. It's where? And it's a town. It's fucking in New York. Yeah. Yeah, this whole, I'm, I once again, I'm flying in the face of, of logic and just trying to be British once again, aim for the fucking nose, aim for the stars, aim for that button nose.

So this, so John Bingham during World War II, when he was a boy, he was evacuated out of London out of Marleybone. They're going to be like, it's pronounced Milly Bin. Yeah, totally. He was evacuated to Wales and then to Canada and he got to live with his rich, like friends of family. That sounds nice. Relatives.

Yeah. Or like crazy rich. But then when he came back to England when the war was over, he was sent to Eaton College. Now I was thinking about this in my head, but I didn't look, look it up. I think over there, Eaton is like a boarding school that's like grammar and high school. Yes, I have. It's not necessarily a college. Like we think of college.

They have like finishing school, right? Where like you pass your, again, where you put a book on your head. Save it if you want to fuck an email, text us, tweet us that we're wrong. It's like a, someone named England, tell us what Eaton College is. No, no, I don't care. I do care. No, don't tell me. But I think it's like a finishing school.

No, I'm going to keep saying that until you agree with me. This time you said it, like you'd been thinking about it and now you've decided it's a finishing school. I think it's like high school and perhaps like a boarding school. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Anyhow.

Finally, we agree. So when he was there, he supplemented his pocket money with, he was a bookie. And so, um, yeah, I think it's very cool. You too. He had a secret bank account. Oh my God. And he made money as a kid, as a kid. My grandfather was a bookie.

For real? Yeah. No. A barbershop front. Barber quote, quote unquote. Bookie. Nice. Anyway, sorry.

Um, so this kid, he would leave the school grounds, go to horse races, take bets, and he was like the school bookie. That's so cool. Love it. Well, the bad part, the uncool part is that he turned out to be a terrible compulsive gambler later on. Oh, wait. Take that back.

But when he's a kid, that's cute. Yeah. He's got the nickname Lucky Lucan, um, after winning 26,000 pounds at a, the card game Shemendafur in Le Tour, Le Touquet. None of that's real. None of it is meaningful to me in any way, but he won, he won a game, a bunch of pounds. And so that's what made him think I'm, I'm lucky and I should be doing this all the time. Um, so.

So, uh, when he got out of school, he was in the army for a little bit and then he, um, started a job as a merchant banker. Um, but he had, uh, very expensive tastes because he was still an aristocrat. His parents were very, um, very, what do you call that? I was going to say staunch, but that's from gray gardens. It's, um, um, what are you, they didn't spend a lot of money. They were like religious and, um, what's the word when you try to, I'm like making a gesture on my chest.

Yeah. Like frugal frugal frugal. There we go. This gesture worked for me. How long did that fucking take? If this podcast is two hours long, it's because we're trying to remember words that neither of us could. Who could enjoy this?

I don't know. It's madness. Even Steven is like, can you get your fucking shit together? Okay, so he had all very expensive tastes because he was still an aristocrat at the end of the day and he was raised, you know, by rich people in North America. Um, so he, his, he had taste for the best Russian vodka. He liked to race power boats. Um, and then from this lift of at wikipedia donate to wikipedia, by the way, if only just

$3. Oh, can you donate to wikipedia? Yeah. Yeah. It's all that they're, they're, they're actually having like, they're kind of like public television right now. I didn't know that. And they're trying to get people to, to give them money, um, because they just, they need

to stick around. I have so many questions. I mean, I love wikipedia, but I won't ask them right now. If you click on there right now, the thing will come up to say, please give us $3. Okay. And then we'll do it. That's, yeah. I mean, it seems fair for all the shit they give me hours I spent when I had the desk job

looking at unsolved murders and serial killers and love it. So anyway, this guy basically, he's living the life. He likes the best of all things. I was just going to say at the end of this sentence, they were like, he had the best tastes. He loved the best, um, you know, he raised boats. He, he loved Russian vodka and smart cars, which I think in, in England probably means smart, like cool cars, but here means tiny toy looking cars that are the stupidest looking

cars you could drive. I just time travel too, because those didn't exist. Right. I mean, how cool would that be if he was just like, they're like, he invented the smart car. Yeah. All right. Anyway, um, he was also very charismatic.

He was six foot two with a quote from Wikipedia, a luxuriant mustache. Like Steven's, um, and he was once considered to play the role of James Bond. Oh shit. So he's that he used to see a picture of him on Wikipedia. He's pretty hot as fuck. Yeah. Yeah. He, he he's very British aristocratic looking kind of like pointy nose.

I won't. It's a high class. You know what I mean? It's a British thing. Pointy nose and kind of like, he looks like he'd be like, very good. Hey man, my husband, my husband is the spitting image of Prince William. So that's right. Am I going to.

That's exactly right. Clearly I'm into British dudes. Yeah. No complaints. Um, also at one point he was ranked among the top 10, uh, the world's top 10 backgammon players. So that's kind of cool. Badass.

Yeah. Talk about sex. That is exactly, but I bet it's hard. It's, you know what it is? It's like chess for drunk people is what it is. All right. It still sounds like I don't think I like chess for drunk people to me is like bingo connect for his chest.

That's right. For drunk people. Yeah. Bingo. Um, okay. So he meets his wife, Veronica Duncan at a golf club function and they get married on November 20th, 1963. And, uh, when they get married, so Lord Lucas finances when he was a young man and he was

gambling so much, it got a little iffy in there because he was just like going for it. And like, I'm, I'm in a boat race. I have to have an Aston Martin. You know, he was like living the life and spending all that money. So when he marries Veronica Duncan, um, his father gives him what was called a marriage settlement. So he gets a big chunk of money to buy a house to prepare for having kids like this whole. So he's basically kind of like up in, up in the, in the black, sexist, got it.

Um, two months after he gets married, I called him old man, Luke, an old man, Luke and dies of a stroke. And so John Bingham, uh, inherits 250,000 pounds and his father's titles, which are Earl of Lucan, Baron Lucan of Castle bar, Baron Lucan of Melcombe, Lucan and Baronette Bingham of Castle. I don't know what any of this means. He's meaningless. So cute.

The mean emails. It's not meaningless. It's super meaningless. Don't shoot foxes. Right. Everybody. Uh, okay. So the problem is that he has a very serious gambling problem.

So at first it was hot and cute and he's James Bond. And after a while it's like, put the backgammon down. What are you doing? Um, and he's spending, still spending money like an aristocrat. So he's like, you know, he's, he's got a, uh, open account at Savile Road, Taylors, you know what I mean? People are making clothes, clothing for him. The spoke.

Yeah. Look at you Karen. I know. I want to be rich really bad. Do you? Really bad. Really? Not just rich though.

I want to be, I want to be like Lord Lucan. I want to be an aristocrat. What would you do? I guess I would just drink and smoke cigarettes all day because you can, you can just do it at that point because you can, you can kind of, yeah, you can just kind of, well, it's the same thing you can do if you were basically a bum. Remember that intervention where the woman had like inherited so much money that she was like, why should I not be an alcoholic?

And then she, they were going to take her to a rehab that was like a 14 hour, like a five hour flight, but she insisted on getting a limo because she wanted to bring her cats with her. She put her cats in the limo. Oh my God. It was the best. Holy shit. She took a cat road trip.

Yeah. She like put cat boxes in the limo. Like she's me if I just had a shit set and like no one could say anything to her because like she wasn't going to lose anything because she was, did it work? Did she get sober? I don't know if there's, maybe there's hopefully there's a follow up. I don't know. Oh man.

It's been, I haven't, I stopped watching that because it's real depressing. It turns out she ate all those cats. She got really drunk and then she got hungry and she ate those cats. Oh, it was poor baby. I mean, sorry. Fuck it. Nope. Right field.

Loving it. Left field. There's a downside to being an addict. I think we all know this. We've tried to tell you over and over. Yeah. Okay. So, so he and his wife have three kids, George and Camilla and a third one that for some

reason is not on this list and some of it, you know, the youngest kid never matters. Am I wrong? Yeah. Seriously. I'm living that life. That's why we're murder podcasts. Yeah. That's why we're doing what we do.

So Veronica is struggling cause she also has three kids in this very short amount of time, of course. So she's struggling with postnatal depression, honey. And Lord Lucan takes her for treatment at a psychiatric clinic. She refused to be admitted, but she did agree to home visits from a psychiatrist and taking a course of antidepressants. So she's trying to take care of it, but she won't like, you know, really go take a full break or whatever she's like, I can handle this.

Well, then that combined with the pressures of maintaining their finances and his, I mean, he, I read this thing, I didn't include it, but there was a thing of like how he would spend his days. Oh my God. It's so hilarious cause he would like get up and eat breakfast and then go to his gaming club and just gamble all afternoon. All of you did, it was gamble. Yeah.

And then you know he was probably drinking too. Of course. And then he would come home and get dressed and then put on like his tuxedo to grow out. Reaking him cigarettes probably. Oh yeah. And you can't wash that off after a while. And then he just went out to drink and eat and smoke and gamble more. That was just, that's all he did all the time.

I would have, that's not post-natal depression. That's fucking depression. Yeah. That she had. Cause she was like, what the fuck? This is not what I fucking went to finishing school for. So basically in the two weeks after a very strained family Christmas in 1972, Lord Luke had moved out and then they get into this bitter custody battle and the justice awards

custody to Veronica. Divorce like didn't happen back then. Yeah. It wasn't good. And I'm sure for aristocrats, you could push him off the couch. Elvis is ripping up Karen's notes. Sorry. My precious writing.

Okay. So, uh, so she is awarded custody of the three kids and that's all he wanted. And so why would he want just to fuck with her? Right? Well, no, no, no. He really, I'm sure really loved his children and it was very important to him, but also I think it was part of this thing that he didn't think she was a fit mother, knowing that she had post-natal depression.

I think he was partly worried and then also partly he was an addict and needed to control things. You know, there's something going on. He gets awarded like every other weekend visit and he gets really obsessive about it. So he starts spying on her to prove she's an unfit mother. He's recording their phone conversations. He becomes fixated on her and what's happening. He also is his drinking gets really bad and his gambling.

He goes crazy with the gambling and all of his friends are like, he's in a downward spiral and then all of a sudden the week of November 7th in 1974, he seems to like suddenly be pull it together and there's a couple first hand stories of people who like had dinner with him and he, they tried to talk to him about what's going on with the kids and he changes the topic to politics. And so they're like, oh, maybe he's rounded the corner, maybe he's out of a system. So on the evening of November 7th, 1974, he had a bunch of plans with people that he didn't, he just didn't show up.

And that night, the children's nanny, Sandra Rivet, puts the younger children to bed and at about 855, she asks Veronica if she'd like a cup of tea. And so she heads downstairs to the basement kitchen. So there, that's a fucking sweet ass mansion. Yeah. I'll go down to the maid's kitchen. I'm not going to use your nice high class kitchen to make tea. So she goes downstairs to the basement kitchen to make Veronica some tea.

And as she enters the room, she is bludgeoned to death with a lead pipe, a piece of bandaged lead pipe. And her killer places her body in a canvas male sack. So meanwhile upstairs, Lady Lucan wonders what's delaying the nanny. So she walks down the first floor stairs to see what's happened. And she calls from the top part of the stairs, she calls down to Rivet and to see what's going on. And the guy comes up and attacks her with the lead pipe as well.

And she starts screaming for her life. The attacker tells her to shut up and that's when Lady Lucan knows, she tells the cops later that she knows it's her husband. So she survives this guy's got like a mask on or something. I think the lights were out, like it was dark. So she's kind of calling down. She doesn't know what's going on. And then this guy comes up and she thinks she's just getting attacked.

And then she realizes it's her husband, according to her. So they get into this fight. She bites his fingers. He throws her face down in the carpet and she manages to turn around and squeeze his testicles. Good girl. Releasing. Steven.

Steven just really felt that. Causing him to release his grip on her throat and give up the fight. She asks where Rivet is and Lucan was at first evasive, then eventually admits that he just killed her. So what they believe is that he thinks he thought it was Veronica walking into the basement kitchen. He was trying to kill his wife and he accidentally killed the nanny. So this is according to Lady Lucan.

So Lady Lucan is terrified. She tells him she'll help him escape if he would just, well, she's trying to get. So she says, I'll help you escape. You just have to stay here for a couple of days and hide out and allow my injuries to heal because she's been hit with the lead pipe and everything. So Lucan, she walks upstairs, I'm sorry, Lord Lucan, the oldest daughter wakes up. So he goes to put her to bed and she, and then the wife Veronica goes into the bedroom, lays down.

She's bleeding and he puts down towels for her and it's like, don't get, don't get the bedding stained with blood. So he asks her, does she have any barbiturates? He goes into the bathroom to get a towel and supposedly clean her face. And that's when Lady Lucan realizes that he won't be able to hear her if he's in the bathroom. Yeah. And so she runs out of the house.

With her kids still there though? Yeah. I think she knew that he didn't want, it was about her and the attack was about her because she also did report earlier that he had once hit her with a cane and once tried to push her down the stairs. So there, he had gotten physical with her before, but he, I think she trusted that he wasn't going to harm their children. Yeah.

That's crazy. That's what it seemed like. So she runs out of the house and she runs to a nearby public house called the Plumbers Arms. Oh. What's going on? Well, let's go get a drink there. We have to go to a pub called the Plumbers Arms.

Yeah. So what? Like big hairy arms with a tattoo? What kind of bulldog tattoo is that? Yeah, a bulldog would be good. Yeah. Or an anchor, of course. Of course, an anchor.

Or maybe just a Queen Elizabeth's face. I mean, she's a badass. Everybody loves her. Everyone loves her. Okay. Okay. So the police, they call the police, the police go to the house. But meanwhile, Lord Lucanus called his own mother and tells her of a terrible catastrophe

that's happened at his wife's home. He tells his mother, you have to come here and get the children. Then he drives a borrowed car to his friend's house in Uckfield East Sussex. And then hours later, he leaves that property, leaves the car there, and he's never seen again and has never been seen since. No. Swear to God. No.

So that car was found. He's the one missing? Yes. He's the one missing. He disappeared. He disappeared. No, this is, I was not expecting that. Yeah.

James Bond is out and about. Dude. The car was found abandoned in New Haven, and the interior was stained with blood, and the trunk had a piece, boot for those of our friends in England, had a piece of bandaged lead pipe similar to the one found at the crime scene. So there's one that a nanny was killed with that was left at the crime scene, and there's another one that's in this borrowed car. And we don't know what.

So I was all the blood in the car, and we don't know what that led. He was covered in blood. Okay. And I don't know if there were two. There's no explanation. It's just, I'm not sure. Holy shit. So, but then also, he left a letter to the owner of the car that said, my dear Michael,

so he basically borrows this car from this guy's like, Hey, can I borrow your car for a while and then just gets blood all in it, abandons it and he says, my dear Michael, I have had a traumatic night of unbelievable coincidence. However, I won't bore you with anything or involve you except to say that when you come across my children, which I hope you will, please tell them that you knew me and that I all I cared about was them. The fact that a crooked solicitor and a rotten psychiatrist destroyed me between them will be of no importance to the children.

I gave Bill Shand kid, which is his brother-in-law. I gave Bill Shand kid an account of what actually happened, but judging by my last effort in court, no one yet, yet alone, a 67 year old judge would believe and I no longer care except that my children should be protected. Yours ever, John. So he's basically saying whatever happened at the house was some weird coincidence that he happened upon. His excuses that, and I think there was a, it was in a different letter that he walked

into the house and his wife was being attacked by an intruder, which the wife is like, no, I'll tell you exactly how it happened like step by step. And then also you can trace it all back to the car and the blood and everything else. Point the fucking way. So they put out a warrant for his arrest a couple days later and in his absence, the inquest into Rivett's death named him as her murderer, which was the last time ever that Britain's coroner's court was ever allowed to do that. So they were basically like, this guy did it, which you can't do, yeah.

So a thorough search of New Haven Downs was judged impossible. I don't know if that's, what's New Haven Downs? What's a thorough search? What's anything in this fucking world? I pictured New Haven Downs to be just full of a bunch of brambles. Charming as fuck. It's like the Moors, but brambly brambles everywhere brambles and scones or scones scones. A partial search was made using tracker dogs, although all that was found were the skeletal

remains of a judge who had disappeared years earlier. I'm sorry. What? Yes. Yes. So they, when they do search New Haven Downs, this impossible to search area, they unrelated unrelated. They find skeletal remains of a judge.

All right. So maybe, maybe how about once a year you search New Haven Downs, get some fucking puppies out there. Yeah. They love doing it. Give them a run around. It's fun for them. Find a judge.

Um, police diverged, searched the harbor. So basically they went everywhere and tried to find this guy, this guy's more important than a fucking judge. That's right. Clearly. He's a way bigger deal. Yeah. He is among the top 10 backgammon players in the world.

You have to find him. Must find him. Um, they don't find, so basically they can't find anything. They used, uh, infrared photography. They don't, I don't see where. Smart cars. Smart phones. Um, so warrant for Lucan's arrest to answer charges of murdering Sandra Rivet and attempting

to murder his wife was issued on Tuesday, November 12th, 1974. And descriptions of his parent, appearance, um, were issued to Interpol, so it could be international. Um, and of course all across the UK. So apparently it's this, it's since that time been a great British pastime to theorize where Lord Lucan is and people love saying they saw him. So the reports have been coming in pretty consistently year after year saying, I'm sorry, I saw Lord Lucan here or there.

And so some of the places, uh, they have reported him seeing him was as a hippie dropout in Goa, which I don't know. I don't know where that is. Doubt. Um, where he was known, they said he was known there as Jungle Berry as you do the best nickname of all time. Is it? Um, they said he was about backpacking on Mount Etna, someone said they saw him working

on a sheep station in the Australian outback. Those all sound like things people who run away from life would do. Yeah. To get as far away as possible. Yeah. Like trying to not have an identity anymore. Right. Which would make sense.

Yeah. Um, but John Aspinall, who is the owner of the Claremont Gaming Club, which is the place he used to go like around lunchtime every single day, said, um, told the news, I find it difficult to imagine him in Brazil or Haiti as a fugitive. I don't think he has the capacity to adapt, um, which is kind of rough. There was also a rumor Aspinall owned a private zoo. And so there was a rumor that he was cut up and fed to the tigers at that zoo. And he, Aspinall, when told that rumor responded, my tigers are only fed the choices cuts.

Do you really think they're going to eat stringy old lucky? Oh my God. The most plausible theory is that he drowned himself in the channel. Yeah. That's what most people think. Yeah. But here's, this is just an interesting, um, another coincidental thing, um, 13 years later.

So when they had, um, that nanny, uh, the Sandra Rivet was their nanny, but they had had a nanny right before, um, her, and her name was Christabel, uh, I can't find her last name, um, Christabel Bell, uh, and you don't see it, but her name was Christabel something or other and turns out she was married to an economist named Nicholas Boyce. And, um, on October 10th, 1985, Nicholas Boyce was sent to prison for dismembering his wife and dumping her pieces of her body around London. Um, uh, so it was her. The, the nanny, one before this, oh, she got caught up, also was murdered by her, um,

husband, husband. Uh, so fancy husbands are just fucking running them up. They went nuts. So crazy. Sure. Um, which I thought was, oh, and also, uh, they convicted him of manslaughter, but not murder. And he was sentenced to six years in jail.

Oh, that's no big deal. That's no big, just, just kill her and throw her arms and legs around the city and then, yeah. So, um, that's the story. Oh, sorry. It was Christabel 32 was a former governess of the Children of Lord Lucan who vanished without a trace after another nanny was battered to death at his home. You think he did it?

What killed? Lucan? Don't remember the book? Killed the second nanny? The first nanny. Oh, hell yes. Wait, both nannies. No, no, no, no.

The second one got killed by your husband. Oh, okay. Later. Okay. That was later on. 13 years later, the second nanny gets killed in what is a coincidence, but is super creepy because what the fuck is going on? I thought it was the fur.

Okay. Yeah, no. But the first, I'm sure the way everything adds up, it's just basically where did he go after? Did he immediately kill himself or did he actually go? He's D.B. Cooper. Yeah.

Did he shave that, that luxuriant mustache off and go live somewhere for a while? You could go anywhere you want back then. And also with all his money? Oh, bye. I'm charming and, you know, Mr. Dapper, he probably looks like Monte Carlo or something. That's what I was thinking too. How old is he? No.

How old would he be? He'd be dead. He's dead now. He was proclaimed to be dead. No, no, no, but like how old would he be? Like in his, the article that I said where they, they proclaimed him dead, I think they said he was like, would have been 81 or 82. That's livable, especially if you're living the backgammon high life and fucking Monte

Carlo. Backgammon doesn't take that much out of you. No. Yeah. No. And if you're just pickled with gin, you can live for a really long time. I bet you he's still alive. I mean, it'd be pretty cool.

We should make a rule that people have to confess stuff on their death, like on their death bed. They have to confess things. Yeah. Like you're not. Yeah. That'd be nice. Wouldn't it?

Just to solve a couple of mysteries. Yeah. Like don't take shit to your grave. Yeah. It's a selfish dick. So that's my good times. That was amazing. High class murder mystery from England.

Never heard that one. Please let us know all the mistakes from that one as soon as you can. Or don't. Or go, go, you know, every time you get mad at this podcast, go give three dollars to Wikipedia. We're going to solve all of Wikipedia's problems and they're going to be like, thank you. We got an influx of thousands and thousands of so much money. Ready for the summer hill road murders.

Yes. Dude, this is one of these. This is one of those ones I've wanted to do for so long. Okay. All right. Quick sips. Quick sip. So Fayetteville, North Carolina, it's near Fort Bragg.

Let's talk about 1985. Okay. All right. So that Sunday, May 12th, an army sergeant named Bob Sefelt and his wife noticed that the papers were piling up on their neighbor's doorstep and they were like, what's going on? That's bad. And you know what?

We haven't seen her in a couple of days and her car is in the driveway. The people that were living there was a woman named Catherine Eastburn. She was the mother to five-year-old Kara and three-year-old Aaron, as well as Jana, who was 21 months. Her husband, Gary Eastburn, was away attending an Air Force captain in training school in Alabama. So he was out of town. They knew that she's not fucking around.

What's going on? They looked, they heard a baby crying when they went to look at the house. They look in a window and see Jana, the 21-month-old standing by herself in her crib. Her arms are outstretched to them. For some reason, fucking Bob is like, let's wait till the cops get here before we break in. The cops get there, they break in, they find Jana. She's severely dehydrated, so dehydrated, and when I fucking, I remember hearing this

a while back that I think about it all the time, her teeth were black, and she had hours left to live. Oh, my God. I know. They pass her through the window to the neighbor, and then they go to look through the rest of the house. So in the master bedroom, they find the five-year-old Aaron lying on the floor by the bed. Her throat's been cut.

On the other side of the bed is Katie, the mom. She's bound with rope, her blouse and bra are pulled apart. She's naked from the waist down, her throat is cut, and she has multiple stab wounds to her body. I know. It's fucked up shit. Two doors down from the bedroom, they find Kara, the three-year-old. It's really awful.

She's stabbed to death as well. She's under her blanket. It looks like she's almost like hiding under her blanket, and she's stabbed to death. And also, Katie, the mom, was raped. All three had severed throats. I know. I guess what day it was that they found her, Mother's Day, 1985. All right, so the witnesses.

So one neighbor says he saw a man leave their home at about 3 a.m. after the murders are thought to have taken place based on the autopsy. She said she saw a white Chevette parked near the crime scene. Then a man who lived in the area named Patrick Cohn approaches and says that he saw a man leaving the residence three nights before when the murder was supposed to happen. And he says, quote, I was walking home from my girlfriend's house about 3 30 a.m. As I was walking, I saw a white Chevette parked on the road. Then I saw this white dude walking down the lady's driveway.

I passed right by him and he said, I'm getting an early start this morning or something like that. Then I watched him get in his white Chevette and drive off. He describes the man very thoroughly. He's six foot four blonde. He had on a black beanie, a black member's only jacket, white shirt, blue jeans was like carrying a bag over his shoulder. It just makes me think of that.

Did you see that graphic, that infographic where it said like, in your life, you'll walk by a murderer 36 times? Yes. That was one of his 36. I think so. Or so it's in the 30s. It was so it's so high. I know.

For that, it just made me think of that. That's scary. It's horrifying. So three days after the murders, the cops find out that three that a couple days before the family had been killed, they had put in a classified ad to get their dog adopted because they were leading the country. So this Katie's by herself at home and a man answers the ad and comes and gets the dog during the day.

And they're like, who the fuck is this dude? Here's a composite sketch. They put it on the fucking news. The man who adopted the dog, his name is Tim Hennis, was watching the news that night and was like, shit, that's the dog we adopted. And I look a lot like that sketch. So he goes to the police. He answers all their questions.

He doesn't get an attorney. He gives them samples of hair, blood, semen, everything. He's really cooperative. But he drives a white Chevette. Oh, no. Yeah. They let him go because they don't have enough evidence to arrest him. But later the night, they go back with a warrant for him and arrest him.

So the night that they thought the mom and the kids got killed, so Tim Hennis had dropped his wife and their daughter off at his parent-in-laws. Then he drives to an ex-girlfriend's house, propositions her. She shoots him down. He says he went home, ate dinner, watched TV, and went to bed. The Friday morning, they thought that was Thursday night, the morning after, he takes a single item to the dry cleaners, a black member's only jacket. Oh, dude.

The only things that were stolen from the house, it seems, are a debit card and some cash. And so $150 is taken out twice. That's the limit. So $300. And it turns out that Tim Hennis is $300 short on rent, which he pays the Monday after these murders. And a woman identifies him as being the man she saw at the same time that she was there

at the ATM. All right. So forensic expert goes in there. He, six months later, finds a condom package undiscovered by the police underneath the dresser. So he fucking finds a condom wrapper. So according to him and his forensic expertise, he says that the condom suggests consensual acts, um, because very rarely did, did a rapist carry condoms to commit their violent acts, which I want to fucking call bullshit on immediately.

Yeah. And in the 80s, they probably thought that, but of course you don't want to leave DNA or anything behind. I just don't think, I just hate that argument that, well, if there was a condom on, then you had time to fight or it was consensual somehow. Oh, no. Bullshit. That pisses me off.

Well, yeah. That's insanity. That's what he says. He said that, so the man Paul Stombach concludes that the murders were committed by two assailants and that the little girls might have been killed because they could identify the killer. But he says someone said that they, they were killed because they could identify the killer. But he says that the girls were asleep when, uh, when they got killed. Okay.

Um, so this dude, Tim, Hennis, goes to trial and the jury, uh, returns with a guilty verdict and he sentenced to three life sentences. Oh shit. Yeah. And I know, I'm sorry. He sent into sentence to death three times. Oh my God. Yeah.

Cause they're pissed. They're like, yeah. You killed little girls. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just setting an example. Um, right. When he's getting booked, he receives a postcard.

This guy, Tim Hennis, from someone calling themselves Mr. X. And it says, dear Mr. Hennis, I did the crime. I murdered the Eastburns. Sorry you're doing the time. I'll be safely out of North Carolina when you read this. Thanks, Mr. X. Fuck you, Mr. X. Right.

Who is that? And the prosecution got that too. Who is that? Who is that? Mr. X. So he's on death row for two years. And then the defense is arguing to get him out of, you know, to get his conviction overturned. They argue that the crime scene photos that the jury saw were so gruesome and awful that

it swayed the jury's decision. And his conviction is overturned in 1989 and they, he gets sent back for a retrial. So he's convicted and then it's overturned and he goes back for a retrial. But sorry, but how can a picture sway, like just having to look at that, there is no way that they could then go from there and make a decision. They put up these huge photos of it, you know, over his head and were hammering, you know, the crime scene photos, the autopsy photos of little girls were hammering at home and saying that, you know, there was no, there was no way the jury would, would not want

to convict someone for doing this stuff. Well, and also the jury was traumatized by having to be absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel so bad for those people. So, I mean, what do you think about that being overturned on those based on that? I mean, you know, it just immediately makes me think of the staircase and like those people where when we think of like the prosecutor, you give them all this credit.

Like you think, oh, these are going to be people who are presenting a fair case fairly as opposed to people who have immediate bias and want to win their case and agenda thing to do it. Yeah. Totally. I mean, and if you think about the, the evidence against him, we really don't have anything other than, you know, some witness statements and the fact that he was there a couple days beforehand getting the dog.

Yeah. He has no alibi that night. It's bad news for him because it's almost like you were presenting it in a way where I was like, oh, this poor guy, but then the more things you said, I was like, it's totally that guy. How could you? It's so obvious. Yeah.

It's the Occam's razor thing where it's like this, there's no, it's not, it can't be a coincidence. Well, that's why I love this case. It's fucking, it gets worse. Okay. Don't worry, it gets worse. So at his second trial, all the witnesses are wishy-washy and the prosecution argues this and that, you know, and they break under pressure.

And so it's kind of all convoluted. And then the defense for Tim Hennis were able to find a dude who, okay, so this dude would walk the neighborhood late at night. He was six, four, same height as Tim Hennis, and he admitted to always wearing a member's only jacket, a black beanie, a white t-shirt and dark corduroy pants and carrying a book bag over his shoulder. He walks in the courtroom. He's a spitting fucking image of Tim Hennis.

No. Yes. No. Yes. All right. Spitting image. Somehow this dude, A, agreed to fucking do this. Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Wouldn't you be like, I think it's time for me to move to San Francisco? Yeah, goodbye. So Tim Hennis acquitted on all counts. Conviction overturned, acquitted. No, sorry, but they didn't prosecute that guy. They were just saying it's possible. Yeah. They saw someone else.

They kind of like, all the eyewitnesses, they were able to discredit for whatever reason. So there was nothing really tying him to the murder. And members only jackets were crazy popular in 1985. That's true. I was 15. Tall blonde men wearing members only jackets. God, there were so many everywhere. Yeah.

Okay. Let's go. All right. This is 89. Let's go to 2007. Okay. DNA is a thing now. Thank God.

Thank fucking God. So there's DNA inside Kate, the mom who had been raped, although they didn't specifically say that she had been forcibly raped. Right, because the condom theory. But there was semen inside of her. Right. The condom could have nothing to fucking do with any of this. The results of the DNA test from the semen inside of Kate showed with 12 million to one

certainty that the semen belonged to Tim Hennesse. Oh, no. Right. But he had already been acquitted. Oh, no. So motherfucking double jeopardy, right? So double jeopardy is prohibited by the Fifth Amendment. It means that you can't get tried for something that you'd already been acquitted for.

Yes. Which seems like it needs to be fucking fixed and it's stupid, but... No, no, no. I mean, considering DNA now... In this situation, but that's... No, it's a good law because it's like saying they can't just keep on coming at you and being like, we believe it's you. Like if they've proven, yeah, if we've gone through it.

But in a perfect system, when those prosecutors go to the judge with new evidence, the judge will judge that evidence and say whether or not it's worth a new trial. But that'll never be a perfect system because it's a human system. I know. That's the problem with life. So you can't just keep on going like, well, here we're going to do it again and this time it's going to be... It's going to just be like if you had a crazy prosecutor that won't leave you alone.

Well, guess what? They did it a third time. What? They took him to trial. How? Well, I'll fucking tell you. How I ask as if I'll never find out? I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. Thanks for... This is the end of my story. Okay. So, Tim Hennis had been a soldier in the U.S. Army. So the state can't try him, but the army can, the military can. Because he'd been a soldier, the U.S. Army could and the federal government is a sovereign

authority separate from the individual states that make up the country. Okay. So, Tim, at this time, Tim Hennis, who's 49 years old, retired as fuck from the Army. Just chillaxing, murdering entire family. So he's retired, and this is a big fucking point of contention. He is ordered out of retirement and back into active duty just so they could court-martial him for the murders. Shit!

Yeah. Seems unfair. Right. I mean, just if he devils an advocate, if he was innocent. Unprecedented. Yeah. Like, and this argument of like, who has final say, are you bigger than the fucking, you know, it's government shit.

It's government shit. If the government wants you, they're going to get you. You fucked. So, at the fucking court-martial trial, his attorney, Tim Hennis' attorney, brings up the possibility, because they had found semen in Regina, that maybe they had had consensual sex, even though he had never admitted to that. And he didn't say that, the attorney did. And the fucking jury was like, that's what you're bringing up now.

So they find him guilty on three counts of premeditated murder. But guess what, the statute of limitations had expired on rape, so he didn't get... Can we please talk about statute of limitations on rape? I feel like they're getting rid of that. I feel like there's some stays where they've gotten rid of it. Yeah. It's in action, I believe. It's just, I just want to bring it up how fucking disgusting that is.

No, you're exactly right. It just makes me sick. In the same exact way that it's disgusting that Mike Pence wants women to... Have funerals for their fetuses. Have funerals for miscarriages, miscarriages. It's truly insanity. It's hurtful and mean and fucking. It's spiteful and it's assuming it's just so controlling and insane.

It's so controlling. Felt wrong. Okay. Found guilty. So now he's on death row, like right fucking now. This was in 2010. He's on death row in an army facility in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Okay.

Now let's get to a couple random things before we decide everything. Okay. Okay. Okay. So in his case, there's no blood, fingerprints, or fiber evidence that connects him to the murder. And he has an alibi for the ATM visit, which is a little shaky. I'm not saying he didn't do it.

I'm just saying, like, here's some weird shit because I really don't know. Right. Two former FBI assistant directors released a report concluding that the unit that had arrested his DNA and found that it was in her vaginal swab, that they had overstated, misreported, or withheld blood evidence in dozens of cases, including three that ended in executions. Oh, no. They, the, okay, this quote, they had to throw out cases and cases because the results

were either doctored, wrong, or covered up. The lab was shown to be a total tool for the state's prosecutors. Oh, no. Right. Wait. And this was in, sorry, this was in North Carolina? Yeah. Okay.

Or Kansas. I don't want to be wrong. You started in North Carolina. Yeah. But now, but he's in Kansas. Oh, because of the army. Got it. Got it.

All right. So that's really cool. So basically they're just like, we're going to send this off to here and get exactly what we want back. Yeah. So they're proven to be incorrect, but we're not going to check back in with those crimes. And I'm pretty sure those swabs were held in a box that were unrefrigerated that on the box of evidence said Tim Hennesse's name, not the name of the murder victims.

Like they were already fucking targeting him. Yeah. They, they were, they were focusing on him. Yes. This is what they wanted to find. Okay. All right. So finally, I just want to talk about Julie, who was the family babysitter of the three

little girls. When they interviewed her, she told the cops that the residents had been targeted with harassing phone calls, some of the sexual nature. And she said other two other things, that her stepbrothers strongly resembled Tim Hennesse and even showed them photos of it and that she had been assisting the vice squad and setting up bus from local, for local drug dealers. And she even said on one occasion that she'd been followed home from the Eastburn residence by an angry drug dealer.

So this is like a rant of, okay, but here's the coolest thing. Not coolest, but like most. So she admits to her fascination. She's like a 16 year old, a fascination with Dr. Jeffrey McDonald. Fatal vision. What's that? It's the one who was accused, right? Yeah.

So he's a military officer. He claims a band of drug craze long haired hippies broke into his home while he was sleeping on the couch, murdered his pregnant wife and two and five year old daughters. Sounds familiar, right? While he upstairs, he's convicted of the slaying, sentenced to death. At the time of the murders, the family, it was 1970. So it was clearly, you know, 15 years difference, but at the time of the murders, the McDonald family lived four and a half miles from the fucking Eastburn home.

What? Yeah. And this girl who was the babysitter of these three little girls was fascinated and writing him letters and they were communicating in prison. And her fucking siblings looked exactly like these guys. And she believed he was innocent. They wrote all the time. They had the DEA had set up a drug deal using Julie, this girl Julie and the victim's house

that weekend that fell through and the murders happened. No way. Right? Well, she was obsessed with him apparently. She was obsessed with Jeffrey McDonald's. Yeah. Dr. Jeffrey McDonald. Yeah.

Wait, that girl, okay. The babysitter is like, what a rich life she's living because she's setting up like she's trying to do like drug stings. Yeah. Right. And she's 16. Yeah. Jesus Christ.

I know, right? Now also, was that a secret to the family that she's like setting these stings up for? I don't think the family knew, but she like fucking blabbed to the cops immediately about all this stuff. Oh my fucking god. I know, right? Like it's just too crazy that the murders are so similar. What's your theory like with all of that?

Oh my god. Well, I'm just saying, do you think he's innocent or guilty? You know me. I can go fucking either way. Yeah. I think it's that thing of like, I don't know if he's involved or not, but I don't know if he should be in prison or not. I don't know.

Right. I don't know. It's too circumstantial to me. And the fact that they didn't get DNA until 2007, especially if there was a condom wrapper and that was their theory. Was it a common wrapper or was it a used condom? I think it was a condom wrapper. So it was just basically proof that there was a condom somewhere in play.

Yeah. And the forensic guy was like, I don't know the sex life between the husband and wife, but this was there. Right. So if you're introducing a condom wrapper and semen, oh and, oh no, wait, hold on. There was like a towel that had blood on it. There were all these, there was a shoe print that was a size nine and Tim was a size 13 and blood.

There was all these, it points to, at least I know there are more than one, there's more than one murderer or more than one person. Yeah. Yeah. So either he did it with someone else or, you know, someone thought there was money in the house. They knew this woman was alone. The thing to me, the idea of killing children, slashing, stabbing children to death and slashing

them, that's a person who is beyond, right? That's a person that is, that's a person that's not motivated by money or drugs because I feel like those people, or that has to be a person that's maybe on drugs, bare men. And then you think about the fact that they left the 21 month old alive because she couldn't identify anyone. And you think, okay, at first I was like, well, they must know the assailant, they must know the killer. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to, you know, if they just went in there to rob and rape

and even kill the mother, they, unless, but then the, the forensic dude said that they were sleeping, which I don't completely buy because I guess she was like cowering under her Star Wars blanket. I know, which is heartbreaking. Well, yeah, I mean, it's like, you don't, why, why, you don't kill children. If you're just, right, because even burglars are just like, I just want to steal shit. You don't kill children. You don't go from, from stealing fucking money to killing children.

Right. And, and you don't even, if you're retaliating against someone like a stool pigeon, who is this 16 year old girl, what does a five year old have to do with that? And then, and who has the fucking like ice colds in their veins to be able to kill two children and the mother? And then why would you leave the birth child? Like all of it is like so random. But just to me, what makes sense is that the girl told information to the wrong people.

Maybe she had nothing to do with it. And she was obsessed with it. I mean, maybe she did the fact that she was obsessed with this killer who killed, who may be killed, you know, and that's a whole nother fucking, my favorite murder because we've, I think we've both talked about that one. How Errol Morris thinks he's innocent. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's a whole fucking episode, but it's too similar to the fucking murderer where she was obsessed with. Right. And maybe he's not the murderer and or innocent man she's obsessed with, because there is that. Why, but they're still the same. They're still so similar. Yes.

Very similar. That's crazy. Now, it's such a personal thing to stab somebody to death. It's such an angry thing and such a, as we all know, that's like a personal attack. Has the husband in any way been introduced into this mix? No. Gary is a fucking saint. And a good guy, he, he and his, he raised Jana.

She is fucking amazing and wonderful. Like he has nothing to do with it. Right. Right. Okay. For sure. I know. It seems like he should and you'd look into it, but I don't, I really don't think he does.

They always, you know, yeah. Husband, the husband's the first person. Totally. And then I wonder, like, okay, so stabbing is a really personal thing and that, but that's, it's not as gruesome as something like slitting someone's throat, like those are two very different fucking actions. Oh, but I would argue it's more gruesome because you can stabbing because it's repeated, whereas slitting someone's throat, you can do it and walk away and know that they're going to

bleed out and die. Yeah. But have you ever like punched someone and you're like, I really, like mid puncher, like, I don't want to do this. And so you kind of do it like weekly, like week. No. No. I mean, I've never punched anyone.

I don't think. Oh, go ahead. Hit me in the face. Let's do an experiment right now. Let's do it now. I don't know. But I mean, wasn't it multiples? I mean, this is insane.

Like cut someone's throat hard enough to fucking kill them. I feel like takes more effort than, than someone who doesn't really want to be doing this. You know what I mean? Like, I know it. You don't want to be doing it. You're not going to then lightly stab multiple times. Like that's the, that's the thing is it wasn't. If it were to me, a slashing someone's throat is similar to it's like you don't have a gun.

It's similar to like a kill shot in the back of the head where you're just getting it over worth stabbing incapacitate them by stabbing them. Yeah. And then you slit their throat to just fucking end it, but the stabbing part is the part where you get involved. And that's why, why would you even go through that? Unless you want to. Yeah.

Unless you're okay with the idea of fucking stabbing a human. So also she kind of looked like my mom, the mom Kate did. Yeah. I had that like, that like, 70s mom hair. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Go on.

No, no, no. Uh, no, I'm just thinking like it's just so crazy. The fact that they had two witnesses for a person that was leaving the house at 3am. You know what I mean? And also how can it be that many coincidences where it's like he was there. He had the same car. He had the same clothes. He, he went there a couple of days before knew she was alone in the house.

Yeah. That's not good for him. I don't think so either. It doesn't, the coincidences that would have to happen for that to happen are fucking insane. He gets, what people think online, like web sleuths is like the coolest fucking website and they're like discussing it. Which is all over killing season, by the way. It's there like, they talk about web sleuths the whole time.

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Well, he went to his ex-girlfriend's house that night, got turned down for boning and was like, horny as fuck, knew a woman who was home alone, went over there, she turned him down and he fucking flipped. Yeah. That's, that's the theory. That makes sense.

Yes. And he's like, enraged at women. He's like on a mission. But he's never, according to everyone else, the rest of his life, he's been a fucking decent human being. Right. So he does have some, some check forging, uh, charges, but that's not the same thing is.

Oh, but that's something. Is it? Well, it's not a totally clean record. That's not being like a decent being, a human being. That means check forging is like you're willing to cheat, to get money. Yeah. That's something. I feel like that's the way some people start.

Yeah. And then you need to cover your tracks and shit. Yeah. Oh my God. I don't know. That's crazy. I don't fucking know. And horrible in so many ways.

Those poor little babies. Oh, that's what I wanted to end on, actually, is that I wanted to end with talking with the victims because it's like, I don't want to end on this fucking dick. So Gary, the dad, the father and the dad, the tombstones that he had them etched with. So, um, so Aaron, dude, dude, okay. So, um, Aaron, who's three years old, he had tiny dancer written on her tombstone. For Kara, who was five, he had daddy's little shadow. And for Catherine, his wife, he had, you're the sunshine of my life.

I just wanted, I just didn't want to end on something that wasn't tragically sad. I just wanted to mention them at the end. No, totally. You know what I mean? Of course. I mean, yes. No, that's Karen, please, please tell me what happened. Okay.

Here's what happened. Please. I got a dog and that dog was a piece of shit and he was pretty pissed off. Yeah. And that's it. This theory falls apart. No, this is, that's maddening and it's the kind of thing when it introduces the idea that DNA evidence can't be trusted, that the system can't be trusted, that an entire prosecutor's

office can't be trusted, then it doesn't really matter what answers you come up with because nothing ever feels like an answer. To me, the period on the sentence is that there is so many other DNA hits in that house that there's no way that the story they're telling us is what happened. Blood on a towel from like after killing them, it looks like it was cleaned up. There's a pubic hair in the fucking living room. There's bloody footprints, there's fibers and DNA under two of their fingernails that don't match to him.

There's DNA under their fingernails and for some reason they refuse to put it through CODIS. That's very weird. Isn't it? Because they don't want to introduce something that doesn't match. Yeah. Oh man. Hey.

So yeah, that's the summer hill road murders that has fucking stuck with me for years and years. That's crazy. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Hi.

Hi. How are you? I'm ruined. How are you? Um, yeah. Not great. No. Well, fascinating though.

Yeah. Well, because they are, I just was reading something recently about how I think it's the hair evidence, was it hair evidence? Something is becoming more reliable than fingerprint. Something's more reliable? Yeah. Like they're starting to say that fingerprint evidence might not be as reliable as they thought.

Oh my God. Basically, I think obviously we know that forensic science is still developing. Oh my God. Yeah. But I just wish it would move ahead quick so we could just find out because that's the confidence of DNA evidence being the final word. Yeah. That's why I remember it goes, okay, well, sorry, but it's DNA evidence, so goodbye.

Yeah. Nothing we can do about it. Instead of knowing that humans deal with that DNA, from the moment it is picked up as evidence at the scene, it's being picked up by a human to when it's tested in the lab. To a lab being like owned by a prosecutor's office. It's like, that's just horrifying. This is why I think that double jeopardy in the age of DNA and retesting in the Innocence Project and all this, we might need to rethink that.

I don't think so. No. Well, because it's like saying you get the one chance. Well, yeah, so it's so shitty that all these defense attorneys or all these prosecutors and cops, when they can't bring someone to trial because they don't have the body, so they have to wait until they find the body. Right. It's just, dude, I don't know.

So you let this person go free or do you try to fucking, do you try without a body to convict them? I mean, yeah, you have to do something. Yeah. And if it doesn't, if it doesn't go well, then in 10 years when the DNA can be tested or the body is found and the DNA is tested and it matches, then you should be able to fucking retry them. I disagree.

I know. Punch me in the face. You'll see. That'll prove it. Yeah. All right. Forensic scientists out there, keep doing what you're doing. Angels.

Shout out. Tell us things that we do wrong. Yeah, we don't know what the fuck we're talking about. It sounds cool though. Ours are all just feelings. So many feelings. Do you want to say a good thing from your week? Do I have one?

Do I have a good thing from my week? What do you have? I can't think, no. That's like when you're trying to order in a restaurant and it's like, no, you can go ahead. You go first. You go first. Okay, tuna melt.

Tuna melt. What were you? God. Well, you know, we last night, Alison Nagasi and I went and saw the movie Delicatessen, which is... Oh, that's a good movie. It's from like the late 80s, I think, or the early 90s. Yeah, that's a fucking art house film.

It's a total art house film and we saw it at Cine Family. I guess Cine Family would be my thing of the week because it makes me feel smart to go there and like a film person, I'm into film, but then also they have just amazing movies where when you're sitting there, you go, oh, that's why you have to see these movies on the big screen. Yeah. And Delicatessen was like the greatest. That's great.

I guess well, last week was Thanksgiving and I guess just my family and I had the lamest best Thanksgiving and it was awesome and so stupid and not fake and my like year old nephew is there and he's the best fucking thing I've ever seen in my life. Kids are the greatest. Oh, he's an angel baby, as is my six year old nephew, but you know, he's not a baby. No, he's moved into a different area. Yeah, but he's great too. So I guess nephews.

Okay. Nephews. Nice. Yeah. All right. Well, right. Review. Subscribe.

Yeah. Please. I mean, we're not that's not just fucking lip service. Please actually do that. That's not our lip service to you. Fake asking. We're genuinely. Yeah.

If you don't mind, that'd be great. And just and just say sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, you want a cookie? Oh, you want a cookie? He was sleeping. Okay. Okay.

Bye. Okay.