My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 46 - Skippers Unite!

Episode Date: December 8, 2016

In a no nonsense episode of My Favorite Murder, Karen and Georgia discuss the serial killer Leslie Allen Williams and the enigmatic Israel Keyes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Go. Podcasting. Podcasting. Go. What if this was a podcast about podcasting? That could be a thing. That would be the end of us. What if this was a podcast about podcast, to talk about podcasting?

What if this is a podcast about how to start a podcast, and then we started listening to it and learn, and we're soon able to start a podcast correctly. That would be, I think that would be detrimental to our, to our brand. To our brand. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Detrimental to our personalities. Detrimental to rifts, our rift styles.

Rifts. Well, this is all, this is all scripted. This part. Isn't it weird how much we play it natural when actually we're reading every word we're saying right now off of large teleprompters? Wait, Georgia, laugh out loud. Oh, shit. Karen, laugh even louder and clap your hands.

Welcome. Hi. Hey. Did you say bye? Si. Oh. Welcome to my favorite murder. Welcome to my favorite murder.

The podcast that asks the question, why do people listen to this and doesn't answer it? And then talks about other stuff. Yep. Yeah. Um, our blessed, blessed Stephen Ray Morris brought me a gift today that, you know, people who know how to give a gift. Yeah. And it really means a lot because like my own mother for years at Christmas, I would

open things and be like, you clearly wanted someone else as a child. I walked in tonight and there was a Diet Coke tall boy waiting for me on Georgia's coffee table. He doesn't even, he puts it in Karen's spot. Like he doesn't even say like, Hey, Karen, like hand it to her. Nope. It's like, and he did it when I like, I came out and I was like, Oh, like it's just, it's so sweet and so subtle and it's like in your spot.

Thanks, Stephen. All those things, Stephen. And then on top of it, the things I want the most, which are Diet Coke and quantity. Stephen's your new mommy. Steve's my mommy. And also, oh, I called him Steve. And also, also when I was a young alcoholic, really ready to take on the world through a slurry speech and secrets, the best way, man, secrets no one wanted to hear.

I would drink Budweiser tall boys from the corner store because they were cheap and they would get you like buzzed enough so that you could still use money and not like lose your lose money or lose your ID. Perfect buzz that you should have just written, but instead you added to it always. You know what I mean? Yes. Two glasses of champagne. Here I am.

Fucking rock me. Like, you know, and then. And then I'm like, Oh, stupid. And then I go two more. Now let's switch to Jameson's. Now let's fight the doorman. That's why I had to stop drinking. I would always go down this path where I was like, wait, don't do that.

Now it's on. I thought you're like, no, it's on the gin. Nope. No, I'm fighting the door. Now dukes up. Now it's like, I'll kick you in the shin and then tell you a secret. Oh, I'm plucky. I'm plucky Karen.

I'm angry about things that don't make sense. I've had every advantage in life and I'm still mad. I want it. Oh. So thank you. Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for bringing back her memories.

Thanks to the world. I'm glad. And thank you all for listening to my favorite murder. That's Karen, by the way. And that's Georgia. Georgia's still an alcoholic. Karen's an ex-alcoholic. It's all the same.

No, I'm still an alcoholic. I'm still an alcoholic. You always are. Yes. But you're not an alcoholic or you would have fucked everything up right now. I'm a practicing. I went to a new doctor today and I was like, natural, naturopath? I can't say it.

Naturopath? A homeopath? No, naturopath. A naturopath. A naturopath. And I was like, how do I explain to her, like, what's wrong with me, there's a lot wrong with me. And I was like, oh, I know, and I'm a very highly functioning mess.

I'm like, oh, that's it. Yes. Yeah, like, I... Did she get it? Yes. She was great. She got me. Awesome.

Yeah. Who can't say that, though? Who wouldn't say that about themselves? Well, people who aren't highly functioning. Oh, that's true. You know what I mean? That might be me or I'm like, I'm a mess that also can't return phone calls. But my biggest gift, you also clearly don't believe in yourself because you're incredibly

high functioning. Oh, that's true. You have a fucking job and a hit fucking podcast. No. What? No. She became that person. You're Lizzie Cooperman, actually.

I do, Lizzie Cooperman, hang on. Speaking of... Hey, we're on the iTunes fucking. I know. I think we have to cut down the bad corner. It gets me scared. I just wanted to thank everyone for listening. You're right.

Because we wouldn't be on this if nobody listened. That's exactly right. That's why I wanted to thank you guys. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. Bye. Bye. See you later.

That was Bragg Corner. That was Bragg, but really embarrassed about a corner. I have a lot of shame issues. That's what I have to take to my nature path. Bragg shame issues. Bragg shame corner. That's your natural path. I'm going to take it down a natural path to a pond.

I'm going to throw it down in the pond of shame. It's a beautiful pond. It's such a gorgeous, bottomless pond. I go boating there, like sail boating there sometimes. I really enjoy myself on the pond of shame. I bring a, what, a parasol? Yes. Right?

Yeah, like a classy lady from the 20s. Yeah, a classy, shameful person. That's me. That's me all over. What other corners do you want to talk about? I guess. Should we get ready to show corners? So like, the skippers don't get this part?

Tour corner? Tour corner. Exciting announcement corner. We're going to have a tour happening. You guys, we're, somebody believes we're legit because they had actually planned a semi, not really nationwide tour for us. And perhaps slightly outside nature.

I mean, America, national. We're only going to national parks. That's what Karen's trying to say. We're only doing shows in natural parts. And we're trying, we're trying to get disappeared out of a natural park, like those weird stories where people disappear out of natural parks. And everyone, the only, you have to chop down a tree

if you're going to come. That's right. We're going to basically chop down all the woods. We're going to go find the bad people in the woods. Oh yeah. And we're going to live podcasts, murder them. Have you heard the number of like, how many, do we already talk about this?

How many murderers are, you brought that up. What? How many murderers, or murders happen in national parks? And the whole thing of children disappearing in national parks. And it's like, is it an animal? Or is it a human animal? But if it's an animal, how did they get so far away?

10 miles away. Yeah, you would have seen like a clothing thing. Yeah. No, there's no bones or spore. Fuck. I know. We got to do a fucking national park show. National park tour where we're dressed up

in park ranger outfit. Oh, I look good in brown. I know. And kind of like, I'll do a moss green thing that won't look good on me, but I'll wear a strong red lip. And they'll be like, I don't know, I like it anyway. Tight ponytails just because they're no nonsense. Yep.

And those pads where it looks like we're writing people tickets. But it's like, it's love it. Just we can't get Lyme disease. Hey, do you guys want to know about our tour? Yeah, actually, should we talk about the thing we brought up? No. So I guess we're going to tour from like January to April. Yes.

But like the most like, we don't want to travel that much tour. Like a weekend tour. We should call it something that we don't. We should call it. We don't try too hard to her. Right. Give us like three weeks and we'll get a great name

of a tour for you. We don't care about you. And what's the city we're not going to? We don't care about you. Don't do it. Don't say it. OK. OK.

And everyone's hard to go there because we're actually going to one of the cities. I said, I don't want to go to fucking. That's right. All right. Ready? OK. Yes.

OK. All of these tickets are going to be for sale on Friday. Next Friday. December 16th. That's right. But here they are so you can fucking prep your shit. Get ready. Just pawn your fucking mom's TV.

That's right. Get some money. Collect all of those quarters all around your house. Put them in the coin star machine. See how much you get. Yeah. And then. Take out those random Canadian coins.

All right. Are they in there? Or see if they. Everyone is screaming at us right now. OK. Just saying. OK. January 21st.

We're going to be in Los Angeles at the Riot Festival. February 17th. We're going to be in Oakland at the Fox Theater. February 18th. We're going to be in Vancouver at the Vogue. February 19th. We're going to be in Seattle at the Neptune. March 3rd.

We're going to be in Boston at the Wilbur. March 4th. We're going to be in New York at the Beacon. So all you people who are not can't go to the Bell House on Sunday. Beacon. March 3rd. We're making good.

It's a very large theater. Don't be mad. You'll be fine. Where was I? March 25th. Portland, Oregon. Revolution Hall. Yes.

April 6th. Indianapolis at the Egyptian Room. Indianapolis. What's up, best friend? And then, guess where we're going on April 7th? Milwaukee at the fucking Papst Theater. Are you serious? Dude, is that like Papst, Papst?

Yes. Oh my god, I'm doing so much Papst. I'm going to start drinking when we do that show. You have one. Can you have like a Papst and then you're hungover for? If I shotgun one beer, it doesn't count. Just kidding. If it's a keg stand, it's not, you know.

If you're not on your feet. Don't make me do a Diet Coke Tall Boy spit take, please. And then finally, we'll be back at our original place. We'll be on April 8th in Chicago. Again, at the Vic Theater. We love you, Chicago. We're going back to Chicago. We're going back to Chicago.

That's awesome. Then, unscheduled but planned in the works planned, London, Australia. Oh yeah. Dude. Do you know what I've decided? What? I don't know, Ryan, I'm sound like a dick.

That if we go overseas, I'm fucking flying first class. I'm flying myself first class. Oh, that's nice. Because you have all those anxieties about travel. My therapist was like, fucking spend a little extra money. That's right. And it's OK. Like, don't buy all the weird shit you buy.

So save up. Save up. And get one of the craziest, most expensive. But that's very true because. I don't know how much it is. Is it really crazy? It's like, it's going to be a couple thousand dollars. Never mind.

I thought it'd be like a thousand, maybe. It'll be pretty expensive, especially if you're going to like Europe or Australia. But like for Australia, you have to. I actually, my father, who is very frugal and very like no-frills, no-frills Kilgarev, he was like, you have to. Because he, my mother and he loved Australia. And they would go, they went there a bunch.

And he was like, the first time we went, we flew over coach. And they came back executive class, which I think is just like the cheap man's version of first class. It's what it used to be. It's what normal flying used to be, business class. Before they smashed everybody together. Anyhow, he basically said, the man who won't spend money

or anything was like, you have to buy a first class ticket. If you're going, you're going to be in a plane for that long. Treat yourself. It's completely worth it. So don't feel bad. I'm doing it. Anyway, please come and see us if you heard your city. We're going to have VIP tickets, which I feel weird about.

Do you? Look, we're just going to have to buy into the fact that people will spend extra money to get front row seats of special poster that no one else can get. Meet and greet afterwards, because we can't meet all of you like we did in Chicago. Yeah, that was a special occasion.

That was special. And then like access and then some merch, shit. Special merch. Special merch, whatever. You can get it. You can get like a, you know, if it's your friend's birthday and you suddenly got a promotion at your job. You can go ahead and get a VIP.

We're not trying to big time, you guys. And this is part of it. Thank you for coming. That's what the Rolling Stones do. So it's what we do. Yeah, you're all VIPs. In our hearts. Except only if you buy those tickets.

You know, we actually should start scripting out this part. OK, so they're all going on sale on December 16th. Goodbye. OK. Click, click, click. What else? Oh, I just saw the pictures on the Facebook of the DC meetup.

Did you look at it? Did you look at the cocktails they made? Yes. Oh my God. Did you, now, the cocktail that was the Karen is exactly my personality. Shut up. I don't know who that person is, but it was literally like

Scotch, Drambouille, coffee, and like a middle finger. It made me so happy. It was pretty legit. Wait, let me read the menu. Because the menu was so good. So it was called, it just said, the menu was called Drinks. And then underneath it, in parentheses, it said, do not drink with older people.

Take fucking love. And then the beer on draft was called Stay Out of the Forest and Drink Local Beer. Then the beer in the bottle was Toxic Masculinity. Yay. And then the cocktails was called I'm Going to Go Get Some Juice. In case you're new to this, these are all things

that have come out of our faces. So there was the Georgia, which I loved, the pepper spray first, the fuck politeness, the fuck everyone, the sweet honesty, and the Karen, coffee, Scotch, vodka, Jesus, Drambouille, chocolate bitters. I bet that was fucking good. I mean. And you need one.

It's truly like, and I would have drank three. It's really, I really identified with the Karen. And then their Jell-O shot of the week was called Round Shit. Yeah. Thank you, guys. Thank you, DC. That's hilarious.

And it's very exciting. Also, I like that it was. Why are we going to DC? What's up? Why are we going to DC? Oh, I won't for political reasons. Just kidding. Over a minute, I was like, oh, no, you're Karen.

Yeah, I don't have political reasons. No, I'm not sure. I guess he's just like booking the places he's booking. Yeah, this might be our first kind of tour. Yeah, I mean, we're just doing our best. Unless this motherfucking implodes. I'm kidding, Rad. Halfway through, we're scratching each other's eyes out.

I think one of those dates is like right around when we started, is like our anniversary. That'd be very cool. Oh, that'd be very cool. What if our anniversary show's in Indianapolis? And we're just like, hands across America. We love you. We build a bridge of love.

Again, I apologize for fucking saying. I would never go there. It's too late. Because I'm going. It's too late. Yeah, no, we're going to show up there. What if we're there when that there's like a true crime convention that's there?

I think he did that on purpose. No. I think we sent him that. And we're like, can we go to this? Are you serious? Yes, there's a true crime convention in Indianapolis and our fucking amazing tour dude, Joe. I feel like crying a little bit right now.

Why? Just I like it all so much. It's a lot. I like it so much. It's really a lot. It's good times. Like, it's so much. Yeah, it's really good.

This is crazy. Now, can I change the topic really quick? I can tell you want to and I'll let you. Thank you. I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfortable in celebration. This is called. This is you get one free change the topic every episode.

The Yogurt Shop murders were 25 years ago yesterday. I have a book right over there. Are you serious? Yeah. Are you reading the book about it? I haven't started because of reasons. But because you can't read? You don't know how to read.

The book is called Who Killed These Girls by Beverly Lowry. And I think it's new. And it's funny because, oh, you know what's happening? I was going to do that and I have a draft of it. And as I was writing the draft, Emily Gordon text me and says, have you read Who Killed These Girls? Who killed these girls? The fucking moment I was typing this shit, I lost my mind.

And then I was like, well, I don't want to steal this shit slender, so I'm not going to. So I'm going to order it and read it first. When they, I saw the picture on the Facebook page this morning and the picture of these girls from this time. Oh, honey. It made me well up. It's just like, it's four girls who are just teenage girls.

And one was a friend who just wanted to hang out with. You know, when you go like, you're closing? Well, I don't want to be alone. I'm going to go hang out with you while you close. And I'll fucking fill napkin, things, whatever. And then when one girl had to bring her little sister, it's where a little sister was hanging out there. If you guys don't know about the yogurt shop mirrors,

don't look it up because I'm going to cover it one day. But it's fucking, and like. It's heavy and it's cold case. It's unsolved. But then there's a lot of people. Someone was imprisoned for it, arrested and jailed and confessed to it. I won't say anymore.

OK. Yeah, I want to borrow this when you're done. OK. I just wanted to kind of cite it because it's such a long time. And it is, it's a cold case. I mean, like whoever went to jail for it is not the person. And then there's such, it's just all of us. It's all of us.

The reason I haven't started reading it yet is because I went to therapy the other day and I was like, I'm extra depressed lately. And she's like, well, let's think about, like, what are some triggers in your life like that you do? And I'm like, oh. You mean constantly reading and thinking about murders and crimes and looking at fucking crime

scene photos, like it's not just for my job. Yeah. It suppresses me. So this week I was going to do a survivor story just to be like, it's OK, but I couldn't find one. Are you kidding me? I couldn't find a good one. I was just like, ugh.

Well, that's not your jam. It's not my jam. That's not what you hook into. It doesn't interest you as much. I mean, you can never go up from Mary Vinson. What's her name? Mary Vinson. Thank you.

It is Mary Vinson. Yeah. They can't go up from a fucking pregnant woman beating this shit out of a woman trying to steal her baby, which you've done in the past. And mother fucking. So that's Sarah Peters. You're so good at remembering things.

I didn't do Mary Vinson just now, though. And Mary Vinson, who's just, I mean. So I'm not doing one of those. Hi. I'm doing a murderer. Well, that's what most people have tuned in for. Also, I just want to talk about the now I just wrote down Papini, but are you following that case?

No. Yes, you must be. It's the woman who was kidnapped. And they found her on Thanksgiving Day. And it took place up in Reading, California, which is up north of Sacramento. Oh my god, I don't know. I've seen the name, but I haven't read about it.

They just did a 2020 on it. Oh, everyone was obsessed. There's a mega thread on the Facebook page. Yes. It is the craziest case. And the newest thing that I just read this morning is, so it's basically the woman disappears. It's a classic thing of their big sign saying,

please help us find any information. Clearly, her husband. Then you have to read it. It's just like. Because I actually found it. I saw it on, I saw like, oh, there's a thread on the Facebook page, like this must be a good episode. Yes.

So I found it. And then I read in the thing that in the conversation, I was like, why are they, who gives a shit? It's the same thing that always happens. And what, you know, these photos don't make it. Like, and I was like, fuck this, then. OK, her husband killed her, everyone knows that then. But I didn't realize how recent it was.

And she came back. They found her. Oh. She, they found her on the side of the road, chained. Mrs. Gone Girl. Oh, Allie was telling me about this. Yes. It's the craziest thing.

And there's all these additional facts that keep unfolding that are so crazy, where it's what everyone was saying in the mega thread. But it's so true. It's like, we're just waiting to find out what really happened. It's like, we're days away from them going. They just found this clue. And here's what's actually going on.

Because it sticks to high heaven. Yes. And everybody's being very kind of aware of that. Like, nobody wants to blame her or point a finger, say you are funny or whatever. But if you watch the 2020, it doesn't feel right. And there is this. Do they know it doesn't?

Like, can you tell that they know about it, not feeling it? It's on my DVR, but I haven't watched it yet. But there is, my sister, of course, was telling me word for word all about it. And then there is a private detective who showed up and said he had a donation from an anonymous donor to a reward that he was going to offer from an anonymous donor.

And then he kind of started taking over, like, getting in front of everybody, like, hey, here's how it's going to go. And he spoke soon. It's the weirdest. It's just weird, weird, weird. Nothing seems right. I want to say that I could be totally wrong, but I don't buy it.

And I saw a couple minutes of the husband being interviewed. Yeah. And he doesn't seem right. It's going to be very interesting in, like, I think it'll be, like, a month or less when something is revealed. And we're all just going to go, holy shit. I can't wait.

Because it doesn't, it just doesn't add up. And there's all these extra things that don't make sense. Sorry, this is a dumb thing to bring up with. I'm not being specific about it. No, it's good. People are into it. Let's get them rich corner out of the way. OK.

So we have these new fucking designs, just, like, holiday designs that they're made by our friend Kirsten Bencomo, who's, like, such a fucking badass. And she sent them to us and was, like, what do you think of these? And they're, like, holiday designs that they say, it's like an ugly sweater print. And it says, stay sexy, don't get murdered. And the little, like, holiday designs

are, like, little tiny weapons. Yes. Like, they're just, it's next level. It's really fun times. From a distance, it looks like, oh, look at that holiday sweater. And then you look close and it says, fuck everyone. Yeah. It's just that kind of.

Totally. You know, my favorite murder style fun that we bring to you. Yeah. It's gorgeous. Yeah. So go to follow Kirsten at cmykirsten on Instagram. And then if you just go to myfavoritmurtershirts.com, and I know everyone was, like, why didn't you

call it my favorite merger? And I'm, like, because. You know what, everybody has great puns after the fact. You know what I mean? Yeah. You weren't, you weren't there. Yeah. You weren't there when it happened.

Mentally, I was not there. If you, if you, not you personally, I'm some of them, like everybody can think of a great idea when they have seven weeks to think of it. Right. I also didn't think this would be a thing. And so I didn't get fucking clever. And I was like, it's not going to be a thing

and people aren't going to understand. And they're not going to correctly put in good night. I feel no, no, stay awake because I feel like I didn't think this was going to be a thing is the banner that's waving above this podcast. I love when people like tweet criticisms. And I just want to write back, are you fucking kidding me? Like you do understand.

You understand this is a conversation we're recording. Do you know how hurt I would feel if they tweeted that if we put, if we put, if we tried very fucking hard, like I'd be like, shit, we did our fucking best. God, I stayed up for seven days. And we like the state of the art fucking recording studio. But it's my apartment and sometimes there's fires outside and sometimes my fucking neighbor downstairs

is playing World of Warcraft very loudly. It's a fucking shit show. I mean, it just comes back to guffuck yourself. Guffa and the classic Jimmy Pardo quote, listen or don't. We can't, we can't just can't. And we want to. And we won't. But we can't.

Do we want to? I don't know. Do you want to? For some of the people. Maybe do. But do they even? I don't. I don't either.

I don't either. Is it OK? It's OK. All right. So that's merch corner. I guess this is going on so long. Yeah, I know. I like that we were like, should we do this quickly?

And we're like, yeah, we're just going to we're going to do this quickly. We're going to get it done. George has got a storytelling show. We're going to zip, zap, zap. Talkers. No fucking way. Well, I just don't get to see you that much.

It's nice to talk to you. Oh, hey, miss you. Miss you, miss you. Oh, bye. Bye. You had a thing you wanted to tell me. I think I read all my things. I love the fact that I didn't even

know her first name when I said the Pappini case. Sarah, I think. Or you want to keep talking about this? Didn't you hate it? Oh, Mary's Missing. Mary's Missing Pappini? It kind of is the same, though. It really is.

Except minus missing limbs. It's except for completely opposite. Except for completely not. No, I don't think I had anything else that I can remember. But my memory is going so crazy. I started a new job, which I'm super excited about. It's going to be super fun. I can't wait.

But I, like, I very cockily told George. I was like, no, this is going to be easy. And we're going to be I'm going to be able to do even more stuff this time because blah, blah, blah. Well, of course, it's we just nonstop 10 a.m. to like tonight I got out at, you know, to be honest, my heart was a little broken when you were like, I'm starting on Monday.

Yeah, I'm like, oh, yeah. I had you for two weeks. You did. And now we're in a long distance murder relationship again. We're back to having to write civil war letters to each other. We're like each other's. What's it called when you get custody of a kid? But like we're together of it.

Oh, like co-parenting? Oh, no, we're when you can see a kid sometimes and it has to be supervised. Oh, court appointed? We're court appointed friends. So like we, Steven is our fucking court appointed fucking supervisor. And like you and I get to be together once a week. We have to make sure we don't abuse each other. Two hours.

No slapping, no drinking. No, well, hey, no, that's true. Yeah. I think I can't not work. I can't, I can't. You're working. This is a job now. I know, I know this is a job.

But it, I mean, if anything didn't feel like a job, I would say it's this. Oh, no, for sure. Oh, fuck that. Yeah, no, this is fucking, this is so stupid. Like the fact that I'm like, I'm depressed. What am I, I'm not doing anything to, oh my God, I have a fucking career called my favorite murder. No, it's the best.

This is, this is hilarious. It's like the fucking Papini case. I can't wait to see what unfolds. It's going to be either tragic and we were wrong. Yes, everyone's going to owe everybody an apology or fucked up and hilarious. Right. And we were right. Yes.

That sounds fun. I mean, that's kind of always the option too. Anyway, um, so murder, murder, or should we read our horoscopes? Just relax. Take a breather. Let's read other people's horoscopes. Also, people keep on sending, which I love and is hilarious. We keep getting Amazon reviews for other things.

Did you see the one where it's a rock in a leather, in a leather, like satchel? Really awesome. And I forgot to retweet that. And, um, we're also getting animals who are friends. Oh, for sure. We just keep getting them. I appreciate it. Oh, so thanks everybody for participating.

Are you first or my first? Sorry. Are you first or am I first? Oh, I thought you said something about a horse. I swear to God. Are you a horse or am I a horse? Am I a horse this week? Uh, I don't remember.

I don't remember last week at all. Steven, we're going to need you to take notes. Oh, last week was, um, that one of yours that I keep thinking about of the baby sitter and the children. Oh, fuck. That was a rough one. That was first last week, right? What was yours?

No idea. What the fuck is wrong with us? No, I mean, I'm like, I'm about to be put into a home. What is wrong with us? I was last week. Lord Lucan, yeah. Oh, Lord Lucan. That fucking guy.

Did you see the people that, um, sent the picture where Lord Lucan and Brad Pitt? No. Oh, yes, I saw that one. And I saw someone went and took a photo of the fucking plumbers arm. Yes. Oh, that was the best. Yes. We got two pictures of the plumbers arms, which was the bar that, uh, Lord Lucan,

I don't know, somebody went to, but then Brad Pitt looks so much like Lord Lucan when he has his, um, Inglorious Bastards mustache. Calling it here first. This is going to become a movie. Brad Pitt's going to fucking play someone. We deserve royalties. Yeah. We definitely deserve it.

We had our hand in this pie, Brad Pitt. Felt gross. Uh, it felt gross, but we still want money for it. But we left our hand in there. So then it's, that means it's you? Yeah. Okay. And mine's not super long, but it sucks.

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And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hit her

true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Uh, okay. All right, Karen. Yes. So in May of 1992,

39 year old Leslie Allen, Leslie Allen Williams, it's a dude of Detroit, is arrested when the police found a woman in the trunk of his car. Ooh. All right. So that's where we're starting. A woman's body. A woman, uh, yes. The ceased.

Yes. You okay? So, no, no, no. I'm sorry. Okay, sorry. I, she's alive. I'm sorry. I immediately started questioning.

No, you're right to question because I clearly don't know. Let me start over. Okay, in May of 1982, 39 year old Leslie Allen Williams of Detroit is arrested when the police found a woman in the trunk of his car. A live woman. Uh-huh. He's charged with attempted murder, attempted rape and kidnapping. She had just been abducted from a cemetery that was close by.

She was visiting her mom's grave. No. What? Like, can you pick a fucking better time, dude? Like, I don't know what a good time to get kidnapped is, but it's not then. Well, I mean, if you're evil, that's the best time. Yeah.

Oh, man. Oh, wait till you're at your saddest. Yeah. It's either that or when you're watching ordinary people. There are a couple times I'm going to grab you. That is the saddest movie. Yeah. Or maybe if you're at the pound.

Yeah. And then you just walked out of the pound. Post pound kidnappings. That's going to become the new fucking thing. So sad. Ugh. That's the new thing. Or like you're in a dressing room trying to pull on pants on your tights.

This is why I don't go in dressing rooms. That's not why. But also I don't go in dressing rooms. Fuck that. Okay. I'm just going to keep thinking. What would you guys and then you go? Sorry, sorry.

No, I love it. I know we're missing some good ones. So Leslie Allen Williams, he's a dude again. The first time he was arrested was when he was a teenager and he was convicted of attempted breaking and entering, larceny from an auto, breaking and entering, assault with intent to commit murder, assault, and first degree criminal sexual conduct.

When he's a fucking teenager. That was a ton of things. Yeah. Do you think he's going to straighten his life out? Yes. Nope. Turns out nope. So in 1983, he pleads guilty to sexual assault with intent to commit kidnapping

and assault with intent to sexually penetrate for a kidnapping committed less than, and it was committed less than two weeks after he was paroled from prison. So the original time he gets prison when he was a teenager, two weeks later, he fucking does all this crazy shit because he's like, I can't control myself. Yeah. He's just got out and he's like, what should I do? Pinball.

Yeah. He's like, rehabilitation works. No, it doesn't. No, it really doesn't. So then after that, he's, so at that time in 83, he gets a sentence of seven to 30 years in 1990. After serving seven years, he's paroled just to fucking bear minimum. I mean, by even though I like, it took two weeks for him to commit.

I mean, something that you and I are going to commit in our lifetimes probably, but not in two weeks. Right. You already have a couple of those. I don't want to talk about, it's not about what I've done. It's not what I'm guilty of. Like we're here to point the finger. You're so modest.

Like you don't even want to make this about you and like just don't want to. I don't want to buy it of guineas. You don't want to be more badass than Leslie Allen Williams. My super long rap sheet. Okay, paroled after seven years. And then so when he gets caught with this woman in his trunks, who's still alive, that's two years after he's paroled. So like, what was he up to those past two years, Karen?

He probably had like a bit, a bunch of pictures on his wall. He was connecting pictures with Red String. Oh, they do that in every fucking detective movie, right? Yeah, like, but instead of being a detective, he's like the criminal that's really planning stuff out. Yeah, fuck. I mean, right? You wanted a suggestion, didn't you?

I did. Thank you. Okay, okay. No, I did. So while he's in prison, he tells reporters that he should be quote, locked up. And that leads authorities to think that he might be fucking doing had done some other crimes. Then his girlfriend, always the fucking girlfriend was like, you know what? He liked to visit this one rural field near town. That maybe you should check that out.

Who visits fields? Fucking serial killers have berry bodies in those fields. Other than that, it's like, who, what are you? Why do you need to go to a field? You're fine without going to that field. Unless you're a ghost baseball player, you don't need to be in that field. That was good, though. I really liked that.

That was like quick. So, so his girlfriend, so they go to this place and they find the body of 18 year old Kami Marie Villanova. Villanova. So it's in a field near town, 35 miles northwest of Detroit. They're like, hey dude, we found this body in this place. He likes to hang out and he was like, well shit, I did it. So he confesses and then he leads investigators to the bodies of Michelle Urban,

who was 16, and her 14 year old sister, Melissa. They were originally thought to be runaways because that's what 14 year olds do. He tells them that he had stalked the sisters in their town of Heartland. It's another suburb of Detroit. He used to break into homes there and he used to break into homes of women he met in his therapist's office. What? He went to therapy?

Clearly, yeah. He went to therapy. This is why I never talk to anyone in the waiting room to therapy. And because I hate everyone. Well, also, what do you talk about? I mean, how's it going? Have you been crying? I've been crying.

Also, it just makes me mad when we tell these stories to each other and it's like, you list off all these shitty things someone's done. It's like, and his girlfriend. You're like, yeah. So you can just date really easily. Not even his ex-girlfriend, like his current girlfriend. Current relationship he's having with another adult. Probably lives together.

She probably kicks him down for a fucking Diet Cokes. Right? At the least. At the very least. At the very least. She's making that son of a bitch casseroles. Honey, I hope you're happy now. I don't mean that.

I hope you're fucking happy. I mean, I hope you're happy. I truly hope she's happy. Better things have happened. Yes, wishing her well. What is it that the South people say where they say? Bless her heart. Bless her heart.

I always say, wishing her well. Okay. He stalks them after he had broken into homes of women he had met at his therapist's office. Fucking awesome. That makes me feel really great and safe. And he started stalking these girls and he had been peeping at them. He saw them eight times over several days while casing houses to Rob. Fuck.

He said he was sexually attracted to the way Melissa, the younger sister, walked. No. That's not yours to be sexually attracted. I mean, it's you have a problem. It's not the way she walks. It's not. You're not allowed to be sexually attracted to something that someone doesn't want you to be. You know what I mean?

Does that make any sense? It's a nice concept, but it doesn't work that way. Great. Right. Okay. So armed with a three inch pocket knife, he confronts the girls by jumping from some bushes. And he puts them in the trunk of his car. Oh, don't get in that trunk. Rape them, suffocates them within an hour of kidnapping them.

Oh, God. They're dead. This guy's just on a fucking, at least he's a berserker. He's just like, only wants to do bad things all the time. Well, he's like, I had two weeks before. Who knows how long I'm going to have before. But he's like, well, don't do it. Then don't do it.

Like you got me. He can't. He clearly can't. He clearly can't. Clearly can't. This is what he wants to do. Then he goes to therapy and have a relationship. Fucking asshole.

He drives to the Oakland Cemetery, Oakwood Cemetery in Fenton and dumps the girls in a shallow grave that he had fucking made before. Yeah. Okay, then. So the next victim is Cynthia Jones. She's 16. She's found near Milford, which you'll never remember this, but my husband, Vince Averill, is from Milford. With that terrible story of those two girls.

An equally awful story of a fucking two sweet girls getting murdered in a park in Milford. Well, it just so happens, there's another girl from Milford. So in January, she and her boyfriend, Luke, were confronted inside Luke's park car in Milford, which is Michigan Central Park. So they're fucking parked making out and you're like, I'm safe. I'm with a guy. Everything's fine. It's like, there's two of us like buddy up.

Nope. He, they were told he needed their car because he had just robbed a store. So he was like trying to get their car. He escorts them both at knife point into the woods, ties Luke to a tree and takes off with Cindy. He drives an hour to his apartment and he rapes and torches her for a few hours, then took her to Boono Road in Milford. We had a pre-dug. Actually, I'm sorry.

That was a pre-dug grave, four foot grave stabs her, rapes her, puts her unclothed body inside the grave. Oh, did I ask Vince about this? Yes, I did. And what he remembers. Did he know? Yeah. Here's what he said.

Well, to be fair, he's the one who told me to do this story. So I said, what do you remember about this? This is crazy. Just that her boyfriend got shit because he came up on them in the park and tied him up and took her. People wanted to know why he didn't do anything. We were in 11th grade. That's so awesome.

So he was in class with her, in school with her. And the boyfriend, people were saying that to the boyfriend. Yeah. That's fucking awful. He just, that's what he remembers. And then he asked his friend, Dan, about it. And he said he doesn't know if it came from court or he just remembered this, that the guy had had Cynthia for a while before he killed and raped her repeatedly and would tell her

he'd let her go if she if she just let him each time. Oh, man. So that's what he remembers, probably from a trial. Melford, fuck. And it's like, I've been there. It's like a charming little suburb. A suburb. So all three of the girls, as well as as well as the original on Miss Villanova,

they disappeared on weekends between September 14th and January 2nd. That's four fucking women then. And then he said to state police detectives, I don't want to cause any trouble. I don't want to cause taxpayers any grief. I want to be locked up, locked me up so I don't do it again. I have no control over my life. Holy shit. I know. So his last sentencing had been in 1983 when he threatened to abduct a woman

and he released her on harm. So he got a shit ton of breaks from the justice system, getting light sentences, early pearls after guilty pleas on a bunch of charges of breaking and entering rape and assault since 1971. So multiple fucking breaks for rape. Like you're like, OK, breaking and entering fucking. Like that just shows you how how much fucking women's bodies meant back then. Rape and fucking assault.

So he gets sentenced to everything and fucking the trick goes crazy because they're like, how the fuck did this happen? And they want to hold all the parole of parole board members accountable. Whoa. Yeah. So they draft a legislation to make the panel, the panel more accountable. They would get they got expanded. They could only serve three or terms by appointed by the corrections director.

And they could have them removed from the parole board and it went crazy. And this is kind of why the the Detroit or Michigan prison system is is so full. It's because you can't parole people anymore. Wow. So easily. It's always like really hard to get ever again. Wow. Yeah.

So it's hard to get parole. Yeah, so it's hard to get parole, so they're fucking crowded or shit. OK, also there's a war on drugs and there shouldn't be. OK, and then then so he's 62 years old now. He's serving multiple life sentences in the Carson City Correctional Facility in Michigan. Hope you don't live there, everyone. We're not doing a show there. Please.

So then in July 2000, a local woman shares this memory she had from 1976. She says she's the one that got away and hoped her story wouldn't lighten everyone to trust their instincts. She said she was followed by a man stocked before stocking laws were in place, which everyone think back that there was not stocking laws in place. For so long. For so long, even now they're light in a lot of places, right? And he captures her, manages to get away with her mom, and they report the police.

There was nothing they could do because he hadn't committed a crime. So he was aggressively stocking her. He kidnaps her, but I don't know if he kidnapped her. Oh, oh, oh, oh, sorry. No, I'm sorry. No, I'm the one. No, I am. And in the end, she wrote it's human nature to assume that things like this happen to someone

else somewhere else. I'm here to say that it can happen to you and it can happen here. I grew up in a small town called Fenton, Michigan, and the man that chased me was Leslie Allen, Allen Williams. Are you willing to go on assuming that this can happen to you? Wow. Yeah. Oh, so so he chased her and then her mom showed up and she got away.

Yeah, so he had been aggressively stalking her before that. And the cops were like, well, he didn't commit a crime. He didn't. Once he stabs you, let us know. And then we'll give him two years in prison. Well, that and yeah, that's why those the people that got those stalking laws. I mean, there's like TV movies about it where it's just like it's gone on for so long and it's basically like, well, we can't do anything.

I'm terrified. Have you ever been stalked? No. I had a creep creep once, but it wasn't like aggressive stalking. It's just like a place I worked at that this person would like show up a lot. This is why, again, like, why is an attempted murder tried more harshly? They attempted to murder someone and they didn't do it. So you're only going to give them a quarter of the time they would have gotten.

We can't keep talking about this. Yes, we can. And we can change things and we will change the law. But the law you want to change is you want attempted murder be changed into murder. No, I want it to be fucking I want it to be harsher sentences. Yes. Well, but all around, I mean, I agree with you in that way. And we are reading stories from sometimes that are from like 20, 30 years ago where it almost just as a cult, it's a cultural attitude where it's like,

that's fine or they'll go to jail. It'll change. And there is that thing of like, yes, rape is a, you know, there was a, there was a man who, I think this, this was a story that was tweeted. He, it was a pedophile. He was arrested and giving, given 522 years in jail. So it's like, I think we are catching up to this idea that we want to ensure that these people don't hurt people anymore.

But the idea that it was set up so that this man was harsher on himself than the parole board was on him, he was saying, please lock me up. Please take this seriously. I mean, that's crazy. Yeah, fucked up. And that Vince knew one of the fucking. Oh, the idea that that guy got shit for basically being a victim. He, it wasn't even like people suspected him.

You know what I mean? Like, you know how that happens? Like, oh, we think it was the boyfriend. It wasn't even like, it was worse than that because you could never be proven otherwise. Like it's not like they caught the killer or wasn't me and everyone is like, sorry. It's like, no, you fucking suck because you didn't do anything. You didn't do anything. And it's like, you don't know what the situation is like.

Well, and also if your life is being threatened, like it's, you can't do anything. That's just people really mismanaging their own anxiety and being like, I'll blame you. This is the easiest thing to do. Like this wouldn't have happened to me because of this other thing. Right. And we just, exactly. It's like, yeah, you're trying to make yourself feel better by going, if I was in that situation, I would have been able to take care of it.

Therefore you are at fault when it's like, I don't think so. No. That's, and what an awful thing to do to another person. Yeah. Not it. Hey. Did you get your haircut? I cut my hair over my sink tonight.

It looks really cute. Does it? Yeah. I'm sorry because I was thinking about that part of the time. Thank you. But it's a really good shape. It's not like a mom bob though, is it? Not in the least.

It's actually super twenties. That's why I was very distracted by it. Because I keep thinking I look like I would like be a mom in a minivan commercial. You know what I mean? No, it has really good angles. Okay. Thank you. I cut it myself.

I went to three months of beauty school. This is the way that I offset my anxiety about hearing about terrible things. Yeah. I want everyone to know that we are not terrible people. We're just, this is like us lightening the load of fucking pressing anxiety. If you think we're terrible because we talk about hair, eff it. Stop. Then you can listen or you can't.

What was it? Listen or don't. Right. You can't listen. You can listen or you can't. You can't listen. You can't. Um, nobody cares.

That's not, that's not, no. We have to take that part out. No, we don't. We're all friends here. We're all friends. We're all best friends. Here's, now that it's my time to shine gone, this is not going to be good. I love it.

I made this mistake. Here's, I'll walk you through my mistake. Please. I started going into very deeply researching a woman named, um, uh, Mary Margaret Ray. And she was David Letterman stalker for years in the eighties. And it, it is a story that has fascinated me forever because she, uh, she, um, was obsessed with David Letterman. She would break into his house.

She would steal his car. She would get pulled over speeding in his car and tell the cops that she was Mrs. David Letterman and let, they would let her go. How did she, how did she get in their house? This was back when there were, again, this is the time where like he, I'm sure he like locked the front door or whatever. And then she would be like, I need to get into that house and make it happen. Oh no.

She would leave a presence for him inside the house. One time he was in bed with his girlfriend watching TV and they looked up and she was standing in the hallway. Oh my God. Yes. And, but here's the mistake that they made because nobody knew anything about stalking and all the psychology of it. Um, he would talk about it on the TV show.

So she got all this attention and she was like positive reinforcement. Well, and the, the thing that she had, she had a schizophrenia and it's a very sad story. Of course, once I started looking through it, it's a incredibly sad story because she had it and so did two of her brothers and so did her father. Oh, so it's just no chance. I mean, it's, it's so rough and it's the classic thing of she would start taking her medication, get better and think she didn't need medication anymore.

That's, that's everyone. I mean, that's, everybody does that. Even if she, even if she wasn't schizophrenic, she still was fucked, you know, by that many, I mean, not that everyone is, but like, you're going to have some fucking issues. Well, because schizophrenia, they believe is very genetic. Right. And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's very difficult.

And in that family, it's like that, I mean, that's just such a sad story. I mean, I, oh honey, but like what, you know, yeah, it's just an interesting thing that you have to look at everyone's life. Like everyone's kind of a victim and a fucking, and a fucking. Well, and like it's easy for, we, it, the thing I love the most about this podcast, we just get to say our opinion, we're not obviously not experts, obviously. But wait, you're not an expert? Well, I mean, I do, I do know how to cut and paste from Wikipedia.

So yes, I am an expert in that way. But yes, everybody has, there's backstory and context to everything. You know, but anyway, the thing was, he would talk about it. Like there was a bit he would call his house and then go, oh good, no one's home and hang it. Like there, it was like, he would do things like that on the show. Um, but she not only had schizophrenia, but she had a thing called erotomania, which is a delusional disorder where, uh, you believe that another person is in love with you. And usually it's applied to someone with higher status or it's someone famous.

No, I have that with Vince. Yeah. No, I got it. That guy. I have it with Elvis, Elvis and Vince. He'd, they totally love you so much. Yeah. Uh, so, but the problem is that in the delusion, they think that, uh, the secret admirer is

declaring their affection through special glances, signals, telepathy or messages through the media. Like on your fucking talk show. So then he's actually doing it. You idiot, didn't anyone tell him? No one knew. They didn't know how to, like that, how to handle this situation. That's such a man thing to do in my mind. But it's also just an uneducated, like at the time people were like, peeping,

Tom's are funny. Um, you know what I mean? He just really likes you. Yes. Stalkers are like, you, so nice. He's so into you. Don't friend zone him. Totally.

What did you do to make him stalk you? That kind of thing. Yes. Exactly. Why are you wearing short skirts if you don't want to stalk her? Yeah. Uh, and the, the thing that when I found out this part, because I was insanely obsessed with Letterman when I was growing up, I used to go to bed.

And this one, I was like 12 and 13 and I would get back up at 1230 and go pull the chair really close to the TV and watch Letterman from 1230 to 130 every night. So you were kind of the stalker too. I also was. But I just, what was happening on that TV was like, there's this other world out there that I can't believe exists that I want to be a part of so bad. It's like Chris Elliott popping up as the man underneath the stairs. Totally.

And stuff where you're like, none of this entertainment is on my normal daytime TV. I love it. So it was very exciting. So I kind of like was like, yeah, I get why she's, she wants to go to his house and drive his car. So she's married to him. He's the only, that's the only talk show I could ever fucking stand. Yeah.

Because he wasn't doing normal talk show things. No, totally. And he was so insanely rude. So it devolved, she actually eventually kind of went off him and started stalking him and exed astronaut. But it was just all stepped down. Yes, exactly. I bet David Letterman was like, what?

Yeah. He's like, bitch, eventually though, and this is the worst part because she knew her life was that it was she was just out of control. She killed herself by kneeling in front of a train. No. Oh, and when I heard that the first time I was just like, it's so awful. It's so like, it's so since insanely sacrificial. It's so it's so symbolic or something.

And she wrote her mother a letter saying she was going to do it and saying, I want to die in the valley that I love. And she did it. Some I can't remember is somewhere in like in somewhere in Montana, I think or so. It's just such a dramatic story. Anyway, I did all this work and research. And then by the end realized, well, that's not a murder. That's a very sad story of extreme mental illness and suicide.

And then I was like, oh, so then I had to start over. Oh, wait, so you're starting now? So now I'm starting, but this will be fast. No, I'm kidding. Okay. Because you're like, I have. Oh, so now you're starting. Oh, so you're going to do two murders.

This is the thing. And I just, I guess I wanted to say all that because that's what I'm interested in. Yeah. And that was a fascination that I had. A person that is a female stalker is a fascinating concept that almost never happens. I like that we can do this because sometimes they'll find these crazy stories and be like, but there's no murder. But like, fuck, it's fucked up.

Right. I think we should talk about those. We should change the fucking title of the book. Yeah, let's change this whole concept. We really painted ourselves into a corner. Let's Steven, erase what we've done so far. Er, erase the past 45 episodes. So this is what I did.

And this will just be the fasty because this is actually super fast. So it's equally fascinating, but it's almost like it inverted shorty. It's a shorty. Okay. And it's the story of the insane serial killer is real keys. He's the guy. He's, did you ever see that? Um, that movie, the minus man starring, uh, what is his name, Owen Wilson?

And it's basically a guy that just kind of goes around really nice, chill guy, traveling from town to town, killing people randomly and leaving town. No. This, that's basically, so Israel keys, they don't know that much about him and he killed people from, uh, 2001 to 2012. What the fuck? And he went literally, he, um, worked as a contractor in, in Alaska and he would take that money and then he also would rob banks and he would take all that money and he would buy

plane tickets so that he could go and, uh, to random cities, rent cars and go murder somebody. And they wouldn't be connected. Nothing would be connected. And then they would just go to a different city. Fuck. It's so fucking crazy. And so it's almost like it doesn't even scare me because it's beyond, like it's just beyond. It's almost like he was, he, he has a look like you can see his, um, his, uh, mugshot online

and he looks like a dude that would be in like a North face catalog. Like he's, he's young and kind of cute and he looks very like sporty. Like a little weather worn, but like in a hot fucking rugged way. Yes. Like he looks like a guy that would be on a hiking trail. Like one of the ages of the sexiest man alive in the Doseki's commercials when he's like 30 something. Am I getting this right?

Yes. Okay. So the sexiest man alive is into camping. This is this guy. Oh, also and murder. So, so he, and he would do that. He would go to remote places. So he would go to, um, hiking trails.

He would go to like national fucking parks. It's the national park. This is the national park guy. So he would go into these places, um, and then just like just steal one person. It's easy. Yes. Easy. And take them, torture, rape, murder, whatever, bury their body somewhere and then just move

on and he would pre-plan it. So he had, okay. So I, I'll just read you what I have. So, uh, and I got a lot of this from this. Awesome. It's just an FBI press release where they just said, here's everything we know. If you know anything, please call us. So they're so, they're like, because when they finally arrested him,

Oh God, he got arrested. They, they arrested him. They got him to talk a little bit and then he committed suicide in jail. Fucking dick. So they knew, they know for a fact that he killed 11 people for sure. They can like patch it all back. It's never that. It's so many more because, uh, the amount of planning that went into these things is

super crazy because he would bury caches all around the country. So they were basically like kill kits with money in them. What? So they, oh, so he could go there and be like, here's my kill kit. Yep. With that. But he wouldn't be traveling with it. Right.

So if a cop pulled him over and he had a rental car and he was in Arizona, the cop would be like, Oh, it's a dude in a rental car. You're speeding. Knock it off. It, no, at no time was there like, what's that duffel bag or whatever. I mean, if you're going to be that fucking, like, what's the word? Organized and dedicated, dedicated. Like just be a fucking coder or something.

Like get a job, be a normal, I know. Why do you, why do you have to dedicate that to fucking killing people? Don't be a dick. I gotta be bad. Yeah. He's got to be bad. This guy said apparently when he got out of the army, so he was like, he got kicked out of the house when he was 17 and his parents who used to be Amish and then joined some weird,

um, they, one of the articles said it was like a cultist church in Wells, Texas. Oh, like the Amish, like similar to the Amish cult. Yeah, but they like build nice things and they like, you know, they have that, have you ever seen that areas, that space heater that they make? It's really nice. Come on. Well, anyway, he got kicked out of the house and his parents told his siblings, you're not allowed to talk to him anymore, which I want to know what the hell happened.

But they lost it to everyone. Like everyone in town. Or he was just like super rooted Thanksgiving. One of the two. But so he told the FBI that he had buried some of those caches. So we, sorry, I was going to say he went into the army for a while. He got, uh, dis... Buh.

Member. Disbarred. From the army. Dis, dishonorably discharged. Discharged, that's right. And dishonorably? No, he just regularly discharged. But he told people that he was in the army with,

I can't wait to get out of the army so I can kill a bunch of people. Cool. Super chill. Super like, oh, do you want to go get a beer later? Okay. No, that's cool because you want to go kill people. So. Oh, that is real.

Always joking around. You know, that guy is real. So he, uh, so apparently he has these caches buried in, uh, they, the FBI actually went and found, there was one in Eagle River, Alaska, and there was one near Blake Falls Reservoir in New York. Um, and, and then they also, oh, he admitted to burying, um, them in Green River, Wyoming, and.

This is why I have a metal detector. Right. And Port Angeles, Washington. Okay. And he's. We're doing tours there. Right. All those places.

Go find a cache. That'd actually be like a new, uh, geocaching, but you're actually trying to find Israel Keys caches with geocache. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't know any of his victims prior to their abductions. He described several remote locations that he frequented to look for them. Parks, campgrounds, trailheads, cemeteries, boating areas.

And he frequented prostitutes during his travels. Sex workers. Sorry, sex workers. And it is unknown at this time if he met any of his victims in the Spanish in the spanner, of course, because they don't really know. Right. Who the victims are. Jesus.

Um, and he indicated to the FBI that his victims are male and female and ranging age from teens to elderly. That, see that when they're, when they get that fucking non-specific, they're fucking out of there. Like that's crazier, right? He wants to kill everybody. He just wants to kill people. He just wants to kill everybody.

Okay. So, um, his murders occurred in less than 10 states. Um, but he didn't tell them all the locations. Um, so basically the, he's just was doing, he was kidnapping people in one state and taking them across state lines intentionally to kill them in a different state. Um, because then they wouldn't be missing people. They wouldn't be connected to the missing people. That's right.

So they find a body in Kansas and they don't know anything because the person is missing from whatever state is next to Kansas. How would I know? I, I only have like a seventh grade education. We are the best fucking podcasters that I've ever podcasted. For real. Oh, also it says here he would kidnap them in one state, murder them in a second state, dispose of their body in a third state.

Why? Why that middle, middle man? Uh, because he just wants to keep it clean because he wants to be able to keep doing it no matter what, which he did for years. And how? Oh no, keep going. Sorry. So.

I'm not trying to lead you along. Uh, he also burglarized 20 to 30 homes and he committed arson to cover up the homicides. So it's just everything. He's just throwing it all. It's a, it's a, it's a casserole of bad things. Okay. He starts in 1997. His first victim was a girl who was inner tubing down the Deschutes River in Oregon.

No. And, uh, Steven's ears just broke up. Steven knows where that is. Oh, my mom lives in Bend right now. Oh, so that's on, is that on the Deschutes? Yeah, the Deschutes is in Bend, yeah. He, it's a girl between 14 and 18 years old who is tubing. He, um, takes her off of her inner tube, pulls her into the woods, sexually assaults her,

puts her back on the inner tube, puts her on, and she never reported it. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. So the only reason they even know this happened is cause he told them it happened. You think, you know what, you know, one of the safest places I would think are on an inner tube in the middle of a fucking lake. With your friends. With your friends. And he, oh, my God.

Oh, there's the word discharged in 2001. He was discharged from the US army. Then from 2001, July to October, he resided in Nia Bay, Washington. And there he committed his first homicide, but they don't know who or where he killed. He just said that's where he did it. Wow. From 2001 to 2005, he murdered, this is all him telling the FBI, he murdered an unidentified couple in Washington.

He refused to tell them if the couple was married, what their relationship to one another was. So it's actually not a couple, it's just two people. This makes me so sad. And they don't know if they were residents of Washington's tourists or residents he abducted from another state and brought over. I don't know why it's like worse for me when they're unidentified. Cause it's just like, you just know that there's so many people suffering,

suffering and wondering and waiting and that don't have answers. Yeah. I mean, it's devastating when you do, but at least you're able to contend with it. At least you know, like it's, you're dealing with facts and instead of any possible thing. So it's like he really did want as many people to suffer as possible. That's awful. 2005 to 2006, in the summer to fall months, he admitted he committed two murders independent of one another.

He used his boat to dispose of the bodies of these victims. And he stated that at least one of the bodies was disposed of in Crescent Lake in Washington, where he used anchors to submerge the body. Oh my God. And he said it was submerged in more than a hundred feet of water and that he moved their cars a distance between where the vehicles were found and where the crime occurred. And he didn't say who the people were.

So basically when the, it sounds like when the FBI's interviewing him, he's just kind of giving them the very most basic things. That might even not be true. Right. And that now you go run and try to figure this out. Good luck with that. So then he drives from Washington State to Anchorage, Alaska, where he lives until his arrest.

So from 2007 till 2012. How'd he get arrested? It's at the bottom of this list. Look, I'm going to be honest. It's at the bottom of this list. Okay, go on. Oh, I know what it is. It's he murdered an old couple in Vermont and it got a bunch of press.

And it was one, another one of his super random things. Oh no, I'm sorry that that got, they were like in the press a bunch, but then he stole the ATM card of one of his victims. And then when he went to his sister's wedding in Wills, Texas, he started using the ATM and they, they got onto this stolen ATM cards being used and they got him there. What a fucking rookie move. But it also sounds like after this much time, like 11 years of just constant random murders.

He's like, I'm never going to get caught. Touch me. Totally. Or he's like, I can't do this anymore. There might have been a part of him that's just like, I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, maybe. Because even, even something great and fun after 12 years, you're like, I don't know.

You know what I mean? Yeah, that's not going to worry. So then it just basically the rest of this fucking thing is a list of cities and like very vague crimes and people that they can't. And when I was reading it and it, it goes on and on and there was a, there's a Reddit thread that the person is like updated on this date in green, updated on this date in purple. So they just keep on finding details and they, it literally is,

literally is he bought a Southwest ticket from Anchorage, Alaska to San Diego. He walked on foot into Tijuana. He was there for two days, walked on foot back, took a Southwest flight to Tempe, Arizona. And it's this stuff where you're just like. Well, if he has this pattern like with the entertainment girl of just grabbing them and dragging them to the woods and like, oh, you know, the person who disappeared, we saw her talking to a shaggy hair dude in a bar. It's not like she's like, he's taking them home and like, you know,

pretending to have a relationship with them. He's fucking dragging. Like there's no, there's no connection. Right. They never saw this person before. Yeah. They don't, they probably never saw him coming. Like it's a place where people wouldn't be.

Like if it's a trailhead snatched and then he's there and gone. Yeah. Also in the list, as I'm reading it, he was in Santa Rosa, which is the town above Petaluma. Oh my God. There's a whole part where he's in Napa Valley. He's all, he went on like a whole. He had like a wine tour.

On a wine tour. On a little honey. Up in Northern California. And the whole thing is like that where I just, I started thinking about that where I got super scared. I saw, he flew into the Oakland airport. He rented a car. He drove up to Napa.

Then he stayed for like one night in one of those whiny hotels. Then he drove to Santa Rosa where, and I'm looking at the years like, oh my God, what year was there anybody missing and do you know? Oh my God, yeah, totally. And, but then as I read the rest of the list, it's like, and you could do that with every location across America. But I wonder if he did. No, no, he did.

But the, why can't we find them? Find what? The people that are dead and. Because they don't even know. It's like there's a, the missing persons for say Tempe, Arizona in 2007. He did it all. Well, they don't know. He could have done one.

He could have done them all. He could have just gone there, drank wine in Napa and left. He's that like, and whatever he was doing, he had his cash thing. Yeah. He never, nobody ever saw him. He didn't go somewhere to buy a knife. Yeah. Oh God, yeah.

He had money. If something happened and they were like, you know, you, he ran out of money. He would have a cash nearby where there was like bills waiting. Buried underground. He's the fucking best Boy Scout in the world who's also a fucking dick. If a Boy Scout went fucking nuts, just like had to rub that stick to try to make that fire and just snapped and was like, you know what? Like this.

I'm going to be the devil walking on earth. Yeah. For 11 years. Yeah. And it's just, it's so random that that's the other thing I realized that this sucks because there's no specific storyline or even like any, anybody. Because it's all just like, and then he probably killed one random person. Yeah.

Like he's the one that there was, I don't know if you ever heard about that. There were the two kids that were spending the night on the beach in San Francisco. Yes. And they just got shot. I almost did that one, but it's just such a weird, they think it's him. Uh, totally was him. They think it, they do think that it's him because it's the kind of thing where it, when, when that murder came out.

There's no connection. It makes no fucking sense. There's nothing left behind. They're Christian camp kids. Yeah. Who are, who are like trying to just have a camp out one night on the beach for fun. And they both get shot in the head execution style, but there's no way they have anything attached to like a drug dealer or there's no reason.

None. And he is the, he's the guy that's the no reason murderer. Cause that doesn't make any, like there, there should be a pattern to killers, you know? Exactly. And if you don't have one, then you're probably less likely to get caught. Right. Fuck. It's so crazy.

It's so crazy. And also it goes on and on. And then at the end of this thing, there's a whole chunk called additional, additional murders. And so it's like, he would, he gave additional details regarding the abduction and the murder of a female described as having pale skin, possibly having a wealthy grandmother and driving an older car. That's you. Oh my God.

It's that there's just a bunch of that shit. What a controlling shit thing to do. And then you're like, you know how I'm going to get out of this? Kill myself. Yeah. Cause I'm sure that the, the, the interviewers were like, okay. We're starting to get stuff. We're starting this up.

We're asking him these questions. We're going to bring him Billy Bob. He's fucking Cory to getting shit out of people. Like, you know, like, yeah, we're going to do this and we're going to start really putting some of the stuff together. And with the information he's giving them, he's saying, I can, I can tell you everywhere I was, I can give you all these details and then, but bye. Goodbye.

I'm not actually going to. Like what a, what a controlling. Oh my God. Insane. So if you, it, to me, this is like built for web sleuths. Yeah. It's so. Totally.

It's so perfect. But I mean, it just goes on and on, but if you go on there and you see, if you know of a missing person or some kind of murder case, it's a really good comparison, I guess, chart. Because you have the years and you do have vague descriptions. You can, they say, if you have information, you can call the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI. No, it isn't. Yeah. That's not enough.

1-800-CAL-FBI, that's not enough. C-A-L, that's three, L-F-B-M, that's four. Fuck. They're not going to give you not enough numbers. But what is wrong with my brain that I, that call was like, that's three letters. I love it, but you're the one that's going to figure that out. You're like, you know what, the FBI is fucking us over right now. That doesn't lean anywhere.

That's not enough letters. It's another mystery. Oh my God, what a fucking idiot. Like, I, what is wrong with my, you know what, this naturopath is going to fucking hear me because clearly, I got some issues. So that's, I feel like the Israel Keys case is one where basically what's going on is one where basically what I'm saying is go look up the name Israel Keys because it'll freak your shit out.

But there's not, I'm sure there's plenty more to say and we'll hear about all of it. But that's as much as I, I mean like, that's ridiculous because you do certain things like as someone who's very aware of that murders happen and you know, I do certain things like when I use my credit card at a fucking, what are they called, a meter, parking meter, I'm like, here's a, this is another trace as to where I was that day, like in case something happens, you know, or like I go into a liquor store and the camera's here, it'll show me going to a liquor store that day. But like, if that's not, if you can't track someone else having followed you or like between

this parking meter and something else, like if there's just a snatch and fucking grab. Well yeah, because he's not going to grab you at a parking meter or in a liquor store. He's going to, he's going to grab the person that decided to go on a nice nature walk by themselves. Don't do it, you guys. Why would you do that? Not even by yourself, with someone else even, which you think you're safe. Go in packs of five.

With knives. With fucking rottweilers. With knives taped to your hands. And knives taped to your rottweilers. And then just tons of guns and just start shooting at any sound you hear. Anyone who fucking approaches you. Shoot them. Shoot them.

Disclaimer, we're fucking joking. Yes. You can't sue us if this happens. Yes, we're joking. Don't sue. We're not liable. So that's my super unsatisfying actual murder case of Israel keys. That's good.

Okay. Thanks. I did too. Sorry. The one night you're like, can I get out of here early? And I'm like, you know what I'm going to do? Give you two. What a dick.

No. We're good on time. I'm talking about checking the time. I mean, we're not. But let's just. It's L.A. It's L.A. This is more important to me.

I'm sorry, public school at the Virgil, but this is more important. What a great show. Please go to public school at the Virgil once a month. Public school at the Virgil. It's not as important as my favorite. Oh my God. No, I'm kidding. It's such a good show.

That's a joke. Okay. Do we, should we each say one thing that we like or that makes us happy? One thing that made us happy in the past week. Yeah. Okay. Do you want me to go first? Because I have one.

Oh, you do have one. Okay. It is, I've been listening to, you must remember this, the podcast by Karina Longworth. And it, I'm so obsessed with it. I started, somebody recommended to me the Manson series because she goes, it's Manson's Hollywood, I think it's called, and it's like a six-part series. But she, I mean, talk about research, talk about, talk about a person who cares. Fuller opposite.

I mean, if you hate us, this is the podcast for you. You haven't made it to the end, but it is, she's, you're, you're spite listening right now. Yeah. And congratulations because here's the payoff. Yeah. And it's, it's the kind of thing where I didn't think I was that interested in old-time Hollywood. Yeah.

And it is fascinating. It's gossipy. It's kind of dirty. There's all these things where you're like, I had no idea that happened. It's just, and it's beautifully done. And so yeah, I highly recommend that podcast. That's like great. I was going to say, no, you know what I'm going to say?

So I found a new author that's like a true crime, no, no, no, it's a fiction, a fictional author, I'm listening to her audio books and it's like crime and it's fucked up. And it's fucking like a British procedural. So I don't know why I was, didn't know that I was into this. So I'm listening. You're fighting it. Yeah. But I like listening to it on an audio book.

So it's called Black Lands, the one I'm listening to right now by Belinda Bauer, B-A-U-E-R. It's fucked. Like this is, she's, it's, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's, because it's not, it's totally, it absolutely, I mean, it is, but it's not, and it, it's not trying to be. No. It just is.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. What do we want to, my favorite murder at Instagram, my fave murder at Twitter. We have a, is our website, our brand new website up? Our website is up and I should have a shows page that has all our shows on it. So you'll be able to track it there. Yeah.

All that information we tried to give you at the be, or we did give you at the beginning, you can have in like a way to reference the website is called, and I'm trying to think of something like super, like really dumb and funny that it would be, but it's not. It's just my favorite murder. Oh, you mean like, um, oh, uh, if the fuck word murder mystery show, that would be cool. Sorry. Uh, there's too much talking.org, something like that. Uh, Skipper, Skipper's, Skipper's Unite.

You guys, thanks for uniting, um, with us and listening, we fucking, you guys are the ones, you guys are the ones. You're the one for me. And the people who are for us and like, we truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, thanks for listening. No, stay sexy. Don't get murdered Elvis. You want a cookie?

Good boy. Bye. Hey, what the fuck now? What the fuck? Go cut the shit out of this man!