My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 49 - The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular

Episode Date: December 29, 2016

On this year-end legal extravaganza, Karen and Georgia talk to comedian and actual law school graduate Guy Branum about what makes murder murder. Plus more True Crime trading cards!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Speaking of which, this is my favorite murder. Did you get that, Steven? Are we recording the show? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Welcome to my favorite murder. End of 2016 episode. This is the end of this fucking shit poll of a year. Now, if you had a great year, congratulations. How did you do it?

Press stop. And go have fun with your. And go fuck yourself. Our new musical. Yeah. Oh, my God. Speaking of, did you hear the song? That techno song that a dude made.

What? Of our pod. You haven't heard this? No. Oh, my God. Of our podcast. Hold on. I feel such guilt for the amount of things people do and make and whatever that I'm always like, oh, I missed that three months ago.

Well, you're going to die because this is the best thing that's ever happened. Are you ready for this? Yes. Y'all ready for this? Dun, dun, dun. Dun. This is from Alex J. Squire on Twitter. Oh, that name sounds familiar to me.

And it's not working. Why is it not working? There's just a photo of his cat and you press play. This isn't fucking in. Okay. John Wayne. Game. Oh, my God, I can't believe you missed that one.

I can't stop smiling. No. That's you saying who that's announced. You announcing the shock. Chicago live show who you're doing and I, and you go fucking John and I go, yeah. It just goes and goes like that. That is. Thank you, Alex J. Squire.

Oh, my God. Talented brother fucker. Are you friends with Diplo because that was incredible. That's the new hit. Um, you're hearing a very familiar laugh. We can't ignore it. Noticed. A lot of you know and love.

That's right. We actually have in our wrap down 2016 holiday spectacular. Anything goes. And who the fuck knows our friend and our guest, Mr. Guy Branham. Hello. Good to be here. So excited. I want that track so bad.

I have a dance track from the eighties. It is Margaret Thatcher speeches. No. Turned into an acid dance song. No. Oh, my God. I love this so much. You guys are also astoundingly lucky with your fan.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Like your, like your people say it and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like it's crazy. It's weird. It's crazy. The extent to which their response to all of this is she does described a brutal murder. I need to make this a project.

Yes. Well, actually I have something to surprise you with Karen. What more? Yes. Because you know me hearing my voice with techno music behind it is like that made 2017 for me. Totally. This year's a fucking bus.

Cool. But you can carry it on to next year. That's right. Okay. So I got a package in my PO box and it just said it was to me. So I opened it and I'm sorry. Don't worry. And I got this letter that made me cry.

Like literally almost made me cry. I was really depressed today. And then I read it and it made me feel better. It's basically this girl who's like, thank you guys so much. I went to Chicago show. I also told my, my mom now secretly what listens to the podcast and she's a, she's, it lives in Alabama. And she's a quote, rich white Republican Southern Baptist mother.

And there's a closet fan and she can't tell anyone about it. Yes. What's her name? When the girl found out that we were doing Chicago again, she said I immediately bought my mom a plane ticket to Chicago to go. Her name is Chelsea. Why? And look what she gave us.

Open this. Well, here. Oh, sure. She works at a company. She works at like a beauty product company. And she sent us a whole line of sweet honesty. Oh my God. Oh my God.

Oh my God. I know. Is this the original? Or is this how they market it now? I think it's still around. There's sweet honesty from the live show. But it looks so 70s. I know.

Avon sweet honesty. Yeah. No, was that a real thing? Was it a real? Yeah, it was real. That's why that girl had the, it was a thing. She had basically, it was like, you know, loves baby soft perfume from the 70s.

Like if you had a t-shirt of that, this was Avon's version, which was sweet honesty. She, let me see if I can find her Twitter. Oh my God. And one of these looks like, oh my God. Wait, this, this is what they sell now. Cause this looks like the member tickle. It's a roll on deodorant.

Yes. No. Old deodorant. It looks like deodorant from the 70s. It's, this is, I mean. This is the podcast that made me try to figure out how my mom could listen to podcasts. Because she loves true crime so much.

We got to get Debbie on board. Debbie? Debbie on board. We don't know how we're going to do it. But when you'd have to buy your parents an iPod to get them, like download a bunch of fucking shit. She put it in a drawer. She put in a drawer.

I honestly feel like I need to go greatest hits and burn some CDs for her. I think you should. That's the way to go. CDs is easier. It's not a lot of having to touch things and plug things in. Yeah. At the same time, please burn some CDs for Debbie.

So at, at the same time though, my dad figured out how to listen to podcasts. And that was a mistake. I'm trying to find Chelsea's Twitter because I want to give her. Hi, Marty. Hi, Marty. My dad figured out how to listen to podcasts. And then decided this one wasn't for him.

Oh my God. Listen, it's okay. He's more of a nerdist guy. This. This is like, I just want to listen to men talk. I love it. Yeah. Women are so boring.

Can I spray some sweet honesty? Absolutely. God yes. Okay. You got to huff it actually. I got it. My grandma's Avon lady showing up was one of the most exciting things that could happen.

Avon ladies were the, it just makes you think of Edward Scissorhands. Yeah. Right. That was a real thing. I remember doing what was, it wasn't, it wasn't Avon, but there was another one that was like that. Or maybe it was Avon.

We went to a party of it at my aunt Jean's house one time. And the way this lady was explaining how you had to buy all of this product, because if you used a bunch of different brands on your face together, it was like chemical warfare on your face. That's the biggest bullshit I've ever heard in my life. I was 12 years old sitting at the table going bullshit. Or everyone would have their face burned by now. 12 year old Karen was like,

I just call you out on your shit. I think it's amazing salesmanship. It's smart, it's smart wording. It was very effective. It wasn't Jaffra, but it was like one of those brands where it was kind of like, it's a free standing beauty, you know, kind of slightly pyramid scheme. A number of women from my high school who've ended up in multi-level marketing. Okay, her name is Chelsea Young and she's on Twitter,

it's Chelsea and then L-E-E-A-U. And she's a fucking, she's from Naperville. Naperville, Illinois? Yeah. She's a sweetheart. That's where Barg-Odencroft's from. Oh. Oh my God, is it Barg-Odencroft?

No, no, it's good. Let me smell it. But I just literally inhaled it. She said at the, oh, that's like baby powdery. It's powder. It smells like baby powder. It smells like a diaper. It smells like it's adorable 15 year olds.

It smells like a teenage baby. Which is what everybody wants. Which is what men are attracted to. Normal heterosexual men are attracted to. And she also said that during the, during the live show, her friend that they were with had to go outside. She was sick with the flu, had to go outside and barf in the parking lot, but came back in and fucking stuck it out.

Yes. Like she was like, we were fucking, and she sent me a photo of her, of them. Was she sick with the flu of a Budweiser tall boys? Cause I've had that same sickness several times in my life. Um, okay. Guy is going to, is going to law us up. Oh yeah.

That's what, so go ahead. That's what we brought you here on those pretenses. That's right. So like you guys, you guys talk about law things a lot. Like you talk about murder. You talk about murder. We talk about them with a lot of confidence, even though we fucking don't know anything.

It's true. There's a lot of theorizing. Yeah. Do you guys have any idea what the difference between a first and second degree murder is? Intent? One. Oh.

Okay. One. I don't do Roman no more. Sorry. Um, you're right that it is intent level. It is basically, so like first degree murder requires premeditation. Right. But that isn't really planning.

That's mostly just like being in a right enough mind to be like, even for a moment, like I want to kill this person. And then doing it like immediately after? Yeah. I mean, you do need to like both have the mens rea and the act happened. So what's that? At the same time.

That's the state of mind. Intent is state of mind. Oh, I thought mens rea was your period. That sounds like a real nasty period. So the second, second degree murder is horrible. Second degree murder is either a like your passions were raised and like the, the paradigm is you see your wife fucking somebody else and you either kill him or her.

Um, or like some of the moment in the moment or like you, you're like somebody starts a fight with you and they don't use deadly force, but you are trying to defend yourself and escalate. So you, and you kill them. Those are second degree murder things, the second degree murder is used for like the worst things like, um, that dude on Allen or not on Allen. What was the Jenny Jones?

We did that one. Yeah. Yes. Or, um, the guy who killed Harvey milk. Oh, I almost don't Dan Brown. Don't talk about it. I almost did that one. No, I'm going to talk about it.

Talk about it. It's really good. But it was, he basically said like I was so freaked out by being around gay people and I had eaten so many twinkies that I wasn't in a right state of mind. And so, and like, oh, so like, okay. He got fired and he got pissed off and came back. So isn't that premeditation though?

I mean, it all depends on what the jury believes. And the thing is, is like the jury is so willing when it comes to like a, a gay guy hit on me and then I killed him means you're doing six years instead of like, I decided to kill some gay guy, which is like 15 to life. Wow. You know, um, like if they can, if they can empathize with you, you're better off.

Yes. You're better off. And so like, like second degree murder is this terrible situation where like it's completely screwed over for women because in the like seven days they tried to sell this idea of battered wife syndrome. The thing is, is that like. Burning bed, right? Burning bed.

Yeah. What's that? I don't know that. They fire a faucet made for TV movie called Burning Bed. Based on a real story. Based on a real story, this woman was so terribly abused. I remember watching it with my mom and at one point, I mean, it was incredibly graphic of basically showing what domestic violence

really looks like and it's incredibly intense, but it was on it like eight o'clock at night on ABC or whatever. And I remember at one point my mom goes, I think you should go to bed. But you didn't. No, of course not. I was just like out of my way lady, like standing closer to the TV, but it was basically to try to show people this whole thing of like, yeah, knock your wife around to shut her up.

It's cause you, it's like, in my mind when I was a kid, it was like, it's romantic. It's cause he loves you so much and so passionate and you guys just have this intense relationship and then you see the reality of it. And you're like, this is just brutal fucking bullying and awfulness. Cracking someone across the mouth because she's lippy is not a fun thing to say to your friends in the bar when actually it's a horrible pattern because you were abused.

And once it starts, it can't stop because you're in this like in a rage fit and you beat a person up like they're a man. And then if you, when you're older and you're in a good relationship and the thought of like Vince, when we get in a fight, which happens, him just fucking smacking me because I, he got like, that would be, that would change my world. And the fact that this is a normal thing for people bothers me so much. But the thing is, what's so fascinating is that like,

Really quick. Yes. So, so at night she burnt his bed while he was in it. Then she got off, right? When she went to- That's a horrible idea. But the thing is like, how we learned during law school, like basically is the terrible thing is for like second degree murder,

it is generally a dude grabbing a gun right there, or it has to be sort of like within the same window of time that his second degree murder sort of like active passion happens. But women who've been beaten don't do that. They stew and then three weeks later they- Or three years. Yeah. And they just finally like break and shoot him or burn the bed or whatever.

And like so uniformly, battered wife syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing. But like it's- It's almost like, I feel like it's even worse because they're going through years and years of constant torture and having their minds fucked with because they never know how someone's going to react. And so they're not even in the right mind,

you know, when they're planning it beforehand. The thing so creepy about all of this is that so many of these ideas were built in the 1600s in England, when like things that were very immediate, we understood, but the notion of sort of like a long simmering, like psychological torture, nobody understood because they all died when they were 34. Well, and also that men so had the mic that it was like,

well, they would have to understand how a woman would interpret abuse and approach it as opposed to how it would feel or how they would react to it, which they would be like, well, that's not how it's done as opposed to that's not how maybe men do it or how to the individual. Being your wife is legal. Being your wife is just a legal. It's in the Bible.

Can I say this really quick? Just so everyone knows, Guy Brannum is a lawyer. The reason that we're having him talk about- We get some credentials. We know all this is that you are legally a lawyer. I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School in 2001. That is amazing. Which means I am an expert on the law of murder

and other things in the same way that Karen and Georgia are experts. No, in a much better way. Wait, finish that. I haven't done this in 15 years. So this is basically just what I remember. Oh, good, good, good. But from that, let's hop on over to murder's best buddy, Rape, and understand that in common law,

in the origin of our entire legal system, it's a horrible construction of this situation where it has to be a violent act. It has to be against someone other than your wife. The old school laws, and there have been many laws that tried to update things. I hate that intimidation. A woman going along with things to not get murdered

shows that she didn't fight. So it wasn't really like that kind of thing. Her pants would have been hard to take off, so she must have been consenting. So basically, one interesting thing that you guys come up on the show a lot is, in some states, you still have rape laws that have been updated. But in other states, there was this thing in the 50s

called the model penal code where they sort of tried to make the law reflect the world that we live in now a little bit more. And so that's what the difference between first degree, second degree, and third degree sexual assault are. And these are very serious issues, and it's weird to hear a man talk about them, and I'm sorry. I had the creepiest criminal law professor

who was a man in his 60s, and he was constantly saying things that you were like, don't say it like that. Don't stop. He was from before. Can I tell you the two worst of them? Yes, always please, no. Yes, you kidding me. What if these are number one fans?

They were. There's no rape by swindle. Which is essentially saying if you promise to pay a prostitute and then at the end you're like, nope, that's not rape. Oh. Which is like classic common law in many states who have sort of like figured stuff like that out. And then the other one was.

Don't do the voice again. I'm sorry. Do it. No, I love it. For when it comes to sexual violence and age, there comes a point where mental state doesn't matter. If you did it, so like basically you can say, but she looked 18.

But you cannot say, but she looked 13. Which was the most chilling thing to hear. I don't understand. So wait, so you couldn't say that she looked of age and so you didn't know and so it's not statutory rape. One thing I should be saying is this man was a leading rape expert. Like he was this old, like 65.

In more ways than once. 65 year old. Slander, slander. White guy who went to Harvard was like, had written like several books about it, but was talking about it this way. And it was just like, no, that's what's wrong with the law. All of these laws were written by that guy.

You talk about fucking statute. I mean, which comes up and Karen's always like, stop it. But statute of limitations is just like my biggest, like anything but murder has statute of limitations seems like. Yes. And like that comes to an idea of like after a certain period of time, you like you just, it's after you find out that the injury occurred, does the statute of limitations toll.

Okay. So 20 years later, you can be like, I got raped and it wouldn't have passed the statute of limitations. Well, the thing is, you knew for all of that time, but if it was something that like you didn't know that something had been stolen from you or, you know, if, if there was a body and it was never reported and like we found the body and it's related to nothing,

then you have like three or five or however many years. Like I said, it's murder. So that would just make, I feel like someday we're all going to be like, the fuck was that about like kidnapping? I don't know. All of it. I have a question for you that I've always wondered like about myself and what I would do is if you had to go to trial for

something big, let's say, would you want a jury or would you just want a judge? Okay. First of all, do you guys understand what the difference between those two things are? Not really. The amount of people and robes. Yeah.

One is a jury and one is a judge. So the thing is, the idea is, is that in all situations you have a finder of law and a finder of fact. So like a jury, the finder of law is always the judge because they're official and they know what the law is. And finder of fact, you can either have it be a judge or you can have it be a jury. And it's like the horrible thing about having gone to law school

is that I kind of would trust a judge as a finder of fact more. But the thing is, is in a criminal case, you can't get a judge as a finder of fact. Really? Yeah. Well, you have a right to a jury trial. Right. So I mean, could you wave one?

See, this is how much I don't remember this stuff. And the thing is, is... I mean, you personally, yeah. Well, I mean, the thing is, is that I, no, I guess I would go with a jury because the thing is, is if I had done it, a jury is easier to like, you know, confuse about stuff like that. Totally. Yeah.

And, you know, there's the wonderful thing that we have this presumption of innocence and we have a thing against double jeopardy, which means, you know, if you just get them to, to even just mistrial three times, then you're off. Like one of the things that's so interesting about listening to your podcast is this strong presumption of innocence, which is a thing I love, does lead to a lot of people getting off who we then later find out were horrible people.

Yeah. I mean, it's so shitty because it's like, well, there's double jeopardy, but like, yeah, just because this person was terrible and molested children doesn't mean he killed this other kid. Yeah. But they, oh, but it's still, shouldn't they? Oh, there's the great thing that circumstantial evidence is

evidence. Like, have you guys ever talked to like, I guess you do, you guys do with like DNA and stuff like that. Yeah. There's a lot of cases that are, that we talk about that are just tried on circumstantial evidence for sure. And you, you do have that thing of, is it beyond a reasonable doubt, which is like kind of good because it means you need

a lot of circumstantial evidence, but there's also the weird thing of like, it is just these 12 people kind of deciding it, which means that like jury instructions are always the most important thing. Yeah. Jury instructions are like a judge laying out what are the like five clean questions that you need to ask to figure out whether this was the person who committed the murder.

And do they do that when everything is done before they go to start to decide or at the beginning before the case is presented? Okay. So basically at the end of the trial, both sides will submit a set of jury instructions. These are the ones that we want them to be. And then the judge will basically between the two of

those sort of like synthesize jury instructions that he feel or she feels best sort of like reflect the law as it exists and then submit those to the jury. But that would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for the fact that the prosecutors are doing anything in their means, including makeup, you know, false stories to get their client off. You know what I mean?

You mean defense attorneys? No. The prosecution. I guess both. You said get clients off. I mean, sorry. Get their two. Okay.

Yeah. The defense. The defense. But also the prosecution to get this person charged. The thing is that in my head, I'm always like, like the prosecution has such a better position because like before anything else, a DA gets to say, is this person clearly not guilty?

Like a DA can totally just say, I'm not going to prosecute him. And like they kind of have the apparatus of the state behind them and defense attorneys, when it's not people versus OJ Simpson, like so much of the time are like, they're worse paid. Like for everything except for white collar crimes, they are like worse paid and they have like worse support and

everything. And I do have more sympathy than I probably should for defense attorneys who were like trying to like get somebody off through technicalities. Yeah. Like let's never forget that in the late 1970s, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was going to the south to people who had been convicted, convicted by all male juries and had death

sentences and stuff and saying, let's reconsider his sentence because there were no women on this jury. Wow. And that's why you guys have to serve jury duty now. I know. Because Ruth Bader Ginsburg made you equal, but in the process kind of got some assholes like a second chance even though they did what they were convicted for.

In my mind, and this is my fucking, I might be fucking putting my foot in my mouth, but I'm more dubious of the prosecution than I am with the defense. Yeah. I mean, but it is, but also defense have so much, so much pushing them to like fight for technicalities. Yeah. Where like, I just feel like.

Because they're kind of there to just go, they cut down to the bare bones of like, look, this guy's this and he's going to look guilty. How do I, how do I cut down on how guilty he looks? Yeah. And just get the lowest number that we could possibly get. And the thing is, is like you do, I mean, it is like defense attorneys, like shouldn't they all be plea

bargaining? Like I just feel like good attorneys in any situation really should be coming to some sort of agreement beforehand because going to a trial is just chaos. You don't know what those people on that jury are going to say. It's crazy. It's crazy.

Crazy. Please let's never be in that position. Guys, let's do our very best. Do you want me to answer the question from last week? The key, key question from last week. Yes. Yes. What was, do we repeat the question for everyone?

Well, it's your question. Okay. My question was my, I said life imprisonment, a sentence of life imprisonment, isn't life in prison. Right. Well, it came out first, not to be argumentative. The first thing you said was life in prison means 10 years. Well, yeah.

Which is when I said you're full of it. I didn't mean 10 years exactly. But yes, I meant like that was how we started talking about it. And then I was like, what the fuck is going on? In the 1970s, Georgia comes close to being true. Really? I'm sorry. No, look, it's not, it's not remotely true anymore.

Oh. But it is. So like basically, so you have either giving somebody a number of years and sometimes you get the ridiculous number of years and you're like, why are they putting this person in prison for 572 years? And that is because they have committed a bunch of crimes, but of a sword that's life imprisonment is not an option.

And they're trying to put the person in prison. And then there's regular life in prison and life in prison without parole. And regular life in prison, in like the 70s, it used to be that like after as little as like four or five years, you could be up for parole. Why use the word life? Right.

That's like a time in prison. It's ridiculous. It's like a statement that means nothing. It means nothing. That's so confusing. So what happened is because people kept getting off and going and killing some more people. Yes, that you started getting these laws that were called

truth and sentencing laws that basically said, and I think a majority of states have passed them. And a lot of states now and the federal government have the option of life imprisonment without parole. But the thing of saying that you have to serve at least 85% of your sentence. And for life imprisonment, creating a certain like, you can't even be under consideration for parole until

like 15 years. Yeah, but that's still like if you get life in prison and then you, and then with the possibility of parole in 20 years. And so then you get, you know, 15 years or whatever, 85% of 20 years, then, then that's you get, you spend 16 years in prison for murder and getting, and getting life. Like the story of this kind of is supposed to be that like,

but this guy was being a model prisoner and he's being so great. And there's also this thing of like good behavior time where like the, the person in charge of the prison can like give like credit time to you because you've been like behaving well. But that is that thing of like, is prison reflective of how you're going to behave in real life? I mean, of course not. And this is now we're getting back into the Mary Vincent case

where that's what happened to the man who attacked her and viciously maimed her where he was so good in prison that for, I can't remember his first crime, whatever it was, I think it was probably murdering a woman or something. And then he spent four years in jail and then got out to almost kill her. But let's talk about the awesome and cool ways that you can punish people for being assholes.

Okay. So Georgia and I are getting more champagne in us. So this conversation, let's hope is getting smoother. Let's do it. Okay. So let's, first of all, let's just go back to what does it take to make a murder? What do you think it takes to make a murder?

We already talked about the dark, intense knife. You make your fucking joke about the dark, but let me tell you for burglary and arson. Yeah. At common law, they had to happen at night. What? If you just broke into someone's house. What does that mean at common law?

Yeah. At common law means the way that, like, the law originated in England way, way back when, but was still the valid law in the United States until, like, in places the 20th century. You didn't change shicks. You were stupid. But, like, in, like, in the same kind of olden times where you

could not legally be considered to have raped your wife, if you set somebody's house on fire in the daytime, what? You were fine. Oh, my God. The best. And what? They said it was a mistake or something or like?

They just, the thing is, is that all of this stuff. You weren't being sneaky? All of it. Yes. It was like, well, the dude who owned the house really should have been watching it better now, shouldn't he? That's our asshole. Yeah, that's right.

And so that's all the law that just exists without us doing any work about it. And then eventually, like, state legislatures had to come along and be like, well, we should do something about this, because they keep stealing during the daytime. And everyone's like, eh, but it's tradition. And this is how they did it. But there's lights at night now that it's 1984.

Okay. What else do you need? Like, what else do you need for a murder? Oh. Intent. So we said intent. What else? Don't fucking steal my answer.

Did you say intent? Yes. Intent? Does it kill somebody? Okay. That's another thing. Okay. This is something we talk about a lot, is I think it's fucking

insane that attempted murder isn't tried as murder. Okay, that's what we're getting towards. I was just listening to an episode where you were ranting about that. And so I was... I don't rant. So I was talking about that. That's hilarious.

So basically, there are three kinds of crimes where you don't have to do the act. So the thing is, is that like, the thing that makes murder murder is that you commit an act, a violent act, that deprives someone of their life. Right. And the magic is, the difference between depriving someone of their life and not is huge.

Wow. I could punch the shit out of Stephen right now. No. No. If he survived, then that would just be battery and assault. And I would go to jail for like six months. Is that because they can't prove your intent? Or even if you...

No. The thing is, it requires the same intent. Intent doesn't mean I want to kill Stephen. The exact same punch that is just like, fuck that dude. Punch. And he's still alive afterwards. That's battery. And maybe go to jail for like three to six months

or something. The exact same punch, if like, you know, it's, they call it the, was it glass victim or something? Delicate Stephen's syndrome. Delicate Stephen's syndrome. Under Delicate Stephen's syndrome, and he goes down and he's dead, I go to jail for 15 years to life. Yeah.

Like it is just... Just because Stephen's face couldn't take it? Yes. It is just that much of a difference. It's just because he loves cats. Just because his mustache didn't reflect the fucking punch. And it's a little bit crazy. Crazy.

And an attempted murder basically just comes down to like, attempted murder is something you just kind of like, tack on top of the fact that it was fundamentally just a battery. Well, what, okay, but what if you shoot someone in the head and they survive? Or what if you fucking stab someone and leave them for dead and they survive? Well, I mean, the thing is, is that it is the interesting,

you have to like, suss into a person's head that it was actual attempted murder as opposed to just like, a battery. And they can probably sue you for a lot of money. Or if you put something, Kili in someone's body, it's fucking murder. Okay. You're murdering someone.

That is aggravated battery. It is a use of, I mean, putting something Kili is actually a legal concept. And it's like the difference between first-degree sexual assault and second-degree sexual assault in a lot of states is, did you use a Kili thing when you were raping her? Or like in some cases, the difference is between like, intercourse and just sort of like, you know...

Forced sexual assault when the person... All of the other things that when consensual are fun, but not sex. If we say that, we're going to get in trouble for it, so let's not say it. Okay, yes, terrible. Do you mean what you just said? What?

No, I think, I agree. Yeah, no, no, no. No, I just mean like, explaining what the difference is is going to piss someone off because it's such a fucking, it's so, okay. Yes. Anyways. We're just talking about the facts of what it is.

It's not a joke. So the point is, is that my intent doesn't matter, like my specific intent to kill doesn't matter nearly as much as what happens to Steven. And so with a tempted murder, it is just the fact that at the end of the day, Steven's alive, can go to law school one day maybe, you know, just like...

Really make something of himself? So there are... Finally. No, Steven, you're fucking... You're doing really well. Two other incoate crimes. That is, they're not complete. There's no, there's not, there is an act in them,

but not all of the act. Like all of the act would mean end up dead. Yes, they're called solicitation and conspiracy. Ooh, I like these. What do you think those things are? Selling is solicitation. Okay, solicitation. Selling your body.

Solicitation I think is trying to get someone to kill someone else? Yes. Fuck yeah, dude. You're like, it's like five and oh right now. It's almost like I just watch TV all day and read fucking murders all night, which I do. The thing about solicitation that's wonderful is, so all you need is the intent to want that crime to occur

and an act to get somebody else to do it. And you are at that point, guilty, like the crime that comes, or the sentence that comes with solicitation is the same as murder. It's completely the same as murder. So if you accidentally ask like an undercover cop to kill your husband, it's like you killed your husband. But what do you mean by accidentally?

Undercover cop. Okay, the undercover cop was the accident? No, you tripped upon a fucking cop in uniform. Like you fell down into a cop's ear. But the thing is, if you said like, God, I'd love it if Vince weren't around tomorrow. You didn't have intent at that time. So, but if you went to an undercover cop

and was like, look, Vince has been the worst and you like wanted to amend it. Then yes, you're going to jail for exactly as much as if you had attempted to murder Vince. Yes, I have my hand up. Oh, so does that mean that when you catch a person on tape, like if someone calls someone, that's it's over. Like it always seems like in, you know,

forensic files in 2020, it's like the second you make that deal on a phone call. So the act. So in a murder, the act is putting the stabby thing in. But in solicitation, the act is just the call. And the thing is, at that moment, it's enough. And you are an attempted murderer. And if the other person did end up murdering the person,

you're a murderer at that point in time. Oh, you're the murderer, even if you didn't commit the act. The thing is, is you're guilty of solicitation of murder, which carries the same punishment as murder. Interesting. Now, what do you think conspiracy is? Conspiracy to commit murder is planning it, but without a hitman?

None of these were like solicitation. More of a DIY thing? Yeah. The thing is, is if, like if, if you, if you knew that Karen was going to try to. Everyone is getting hurt in this bucket. Not in real life. If you knew that Karen was going to try to kill me

and you helped her plan it and figure it out. And basically sort of like conversations that are like in the direction of that happening, that conversation is enough that when Karen kills me, you are all guilty of conspiracy of murder. And I can say that, well, I thought she was kidding. I didn't think she was serious. And it's for a jury to decide.

The thing is, is the, um, it is for the judge to say, if she thought she was kidding legitimately, that's not conspiracy for murder. Is it admissible? And it's the jury. It's not a question of immiscibility. It is a question of just like legally that's a mistake that absolves you of your mens rea, your mind state.

You're intact. My word again. Um, and, and so, but it's for the jury to be like, to look Georgia hard stock in the eye and be like, is she bullshitting us? Uh, and if they think that you're not bullshitting, then you are guilty of the same punishment as murder.

Okay. I have my hand up again because that, okay. So that is this thing that's now coming up all the time where, uh, people are only now realizing that everybody doesn't react the same way. So if they look someone in the eye in the courtroom, there's a lot of these, um, a crime to remember is where it's like, she was icy cold and you know,

how dare a mother of two be this way. Therefore she's guilty. She burst into tears. Yeah. She didn't act like a woman quote unquote. And so she's guilty or whatever. So it's that thing where they're, people are now realizing if a person doesn't act the way you

have imagined a person under stress would act or a person that is sad or guilty or, you know, regretful or anything this, like all that projection, but instead it's like every individual deals with that situation differently. When I watch confession or when I watch interview or, um, what's it called when you talk to a perpetrator, uh,

you mean in court? No. In like the police room. Uh, interrogation. Interrogation. Thank you. Um, I'm like trying to study that person and every single thing they say, but you just can't fucking know.

No. They never look guilty or innocent in a traceable way. My friend Chris Schleicher is obsessed with, if he's ever anywhere remotely near a murder, then they're going to automatically convict him of it because he's not going to react the way that he's supposed to react. That's right. He's going to be chilly and all that.

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One of the things that's interesting is that the idea of how a person would behave is an interesting legal standard of how would a reasonable person act. So the thing is, is let's say I was walking, I'm much larger than Georgia. I was walking towards her menacingly. She became terrified and thought I was going to try to kill her and she bludgeoned me with the Amy Cedars Crafts Book

that we just had. The question for like the jury is, A, did she legitimately think I was going to use deadly force against her and B, would a reasonable person have thought I was going to use deadly force against her? And that question of how would a reasonable person react is always so problematic as we saw with like Trayvon Martin in so many situations where like we can put our minds

into the head of, you know, white dude, but we can't put our heads into the mind of like black teenager. So my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later is probably illegal. No, that's kind of fine because it's non-deadly force. And non-deadly force, you know, the wonderful thing about pepper spray is the difference between deadly force and non-deadly force is huge.

And if somebody is using non-deadly force against, like if somebody is not trying to kill you, they think they're threatened. And you use any level of non-deadly force, you're fine. That is self-defense. Beautiful. That is perfectly good self-defense. The thing is, is you need the other guy,

the bad guy to be attempting to kill you. Kill or like sexually as anything. You don't know how it's going to end. I mean, the terrible thing about the operation of the law as it exists right now is that it does kind of require that he or she be trying to cook or could kill you for you to cook or could kill them. And if it is, the thing is, is that if,

presumably if somebody was coming at you to sexually assault you and was being very physically intimidating, you understanding that as being deadly force and sort of understanding if I resist him enough, this dude's going to kill me. That's understandable. The other situation where you're allowed to use deadly force, even if they're not using deadly force, is in your home.

Some states don't do that, right? Yes. It does very state by state. It does very state by state. But generally, there is a duty to retreat in a lot of situations. By who? Like if somebody's coming at you and you have a way of getting away from there.

You have to, you have the duty to retreat. I mean, the thing is, is that like if they're using deadly force against you, self-defense is fine. But like if you have a clear way out, use your clear way out, but nobody's expecting you to retreat from your home. Oh, okay. Like you get to maintain your home. Okay.

That's so interesting. That's good to know. Yeah. Fucking hide knives everywhere. That just reminded me of just a quick anecdote. Do it. So let's get it heavy. Well, this is just an interesting thing of like being in the home.

And also we were talking earlier about growing up in the country. My older mate, Malayva, grew up in a town called Auburn, which is like 20 minutes north of Sacramento. Beautiful. And it's just a gorgeous, gorgeous area up in the, the old gold, the gold rush country. Yes. Oh.

Like red woody kind of thing. Not red woody because that's closer to the ocean. This is more, but it's very foresty and hilly. And just a lot of houses, every house is five miles away from the other house. No. There's no such thing as real neighbors. I don't think I've ever not shared a wall.

Oh, yeah. That scares me. This might really make you uncomfortable because so one night and they all grew up like that. And my friend Malayva told me the story that she, one of her friends, it was, was home alone as a teenager and got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and her parents were like away for the weekend.

And she stepped into the dark hallway and there was a man standing at the other end of the hallway. So she just started making the weirdest noise that she possibly could. A purpose? Yes. Like cause she just was like, it was just an instantaneous decision where she's like totally

alone, wherever the gun is, she's nowhere near it, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So she just started like being crazy creepy and it freaked this guy out and he ran out of the house. That's so smart. Isn't that amazing? That's so smart because I am so, I have this big fear that I'm going to get attacked one day

and you know when you can't, you're so freaked out, you can't scream. You know, it happens a lot in dreams, but it actually happens when you just try to scream and your voice is gone cause you're so scared. Like I'm so terrified that that's going to happen whenever I read a murder story where the woman just starts screaming. I'm so impressed by that.

I think those instincts are just like, to do that is so impressive. It's crazy and I think it was, it was her following her instinct and it's also like, when Malayva made the noise for me, I stopped making that noise. It was really weird guttural. It was almost like it being an animal,

but it was almost like she's like, I'm an animal that might attack you. And chances are when you think about stuff like that, there was probably a drug addict, like a local drug addict that was just trying to get something he could sell for money for drugs. And so he's just like, I'll just break into this dark house

and I'll get this thing and get out. So he's probably high anyway. And then seeing some weird thing at the end of the hallway, making that noise like he probably stopped burgling. I like to think. Having the peace of mind when you're in like probably the most scared situation you're ever going to be in to play on the other person's sense of fear

is just so self-possessed. It's a very good idea. What are other ways we can do that? Well, like sometimes when I walk the dogs and I'm scared at night because I'm walking them in the dark and I'll like pass a house and then I'll look into the window and I can see people and then I'm like, oh, maybe I'm the creep.

I always think the creep's behind me, but I could be the creep. I'm sorry. If they're not closing their fucking blinds, then they're asking for it. Right, but like all it takes is the difference of being a girl walking a dog. It's like, I just step behind this tree

and now I'm the weirdo. Or the person across the street sees you standing behind a tree looking in a window. Oh my God. On a slightly related note. Yes, yes. When you're a gay guy walking down the street at night and a woman starts to walk faster

or have any of the reactions that are the most normal reaction to a man walking behind you in that way. It's so funny because I've talked about this with friends. The inclination to, sometimes people I know have started to pretend to have a phone call so that they can have gay voice. Oh my God. Or just yell, I'm gay. I mean, I most frequently will start singing to myself.

To just be like, don't worry. Girl. Yeah. I thought you were going to say, take the time to criticize her hair and then she knows she is not in anything. Do you guys think, okay. I have literally been in this situation

where I giggled at something. And a woman's physical behavior on a street was just like, oh, I'm fine. Yeah. She's like, actually, sir, can you walk me in my car? I'm afraid to. That's insane. Do you think, I always think like,

if I acknowledge someone and smile at them and say hello or whatever that it's, I'm letting them know that I am aware of my surroundings. And so I'll stop and get my phone out and let the person pass me and say hello to them and like not. Yes. Can I just say this? I just was.

Did I tell you about that book that I got? And it's called like, um, the spies way of, of like, shoot. I need to remember the correct name. Shoot. That's so cute. Oh shoot. Um, it's called like, he was basically a CIA agent and he, it's a book.

It's like a total plain read that I read where it's just a list of ways to stay safe. Oh my God. I need it. Yeah. I'll give it to you. It's really, really good. And it's like, I was like, oh, environment awareness.

And he's like, I would throw everyone's phone away if I could. Yeah. Because people go into this thing where they think because this thing is, has a priority and they're so interested in it that the world they're shutting out is shutting them out. Right. When actually it makes you a target when you are clearly like being mesmerized by this thing in your hand and you don't have

environmental awareness. So like when you're, you have to, um, you don't have to do anything, but when you're walking down the street, the best thing to do is be looking around, be making icons, confidently making eye contact with people. Walk fast and confidently. And just being, and also being able to look at a person being like, I see you there.

Yeah. Like I have a phone in my hand that I can do something with, but also I see you there. And like, are you going to come at me is, is a way better approach. Um, because that's, you're basically, it's kind of like alpha dogging and just being like, this is my area. And this is, I'm not a victim. This is like, I mean, I literally carry my pepper spray in those

situations. Like walking down the street in the dark. Yeah. Yeah. Like when something just feels off, sometimes I'll just walk with it in my hand. Yeah. I don't know.

I know I'm fucking paranoid as shit, but like, but that's what it's like really. So yeah. It's what it's like. I can't recommend being a creepily gigantic man enough. It's amazing. How tall are you? You're like six, three.

Although last week I was in, I was in Bloomington, Indiana, and I went to, um, I went to the gay bar in Bloomington, Indiana, and I went to the address gay bar. I love that. And I looked in and there were like men playing pool and like couples together. And I was like, Oh, this is not a gay bar. What's going on?

Um, because if they're men playing pool, you're in the wrong place. Um, and so I went in and I was like, Hey, I thought, where's the back door? And they were like, Oh, you have to go around through an alley the back way to a windowless, like it's just like a gay speakeasy. It's a gay bar from the time when gay bars couldn't have

window like gay bars. We're about having a good time while hiding. I like that he, I like that he knew what you meant. Yes. I wouldn't. But the experience of like walking through that alley and being like, uh, like how many people have been beaten. Oh yeah.

It's almost like it's a shameful thing that you have to walk through this place and no one wants to go. That's awful. I mean, it's, it's like the old school way of things, but it is, it's the closest I can come to kind of understanding what it's like for you guys. Anytime it's dark and you're going to your car of like, here's this alley where somebody could wait to just like hit

you with a baseball bat or something. It's not even at night. It's all day too. Like I'll, I won't walk down certain alleys during the day because it's just don't walk down alleys. Yeah. No, they're dirty and they're for garbage men. They're not for girls.

Garbage men, not sanitation workers is what you're saying. That's right. Yeah. Men of garbage level humanity. I want to clear that up because like sanitation workers are very respectable. Oh, but they're just. I also meant their truck goes through that alley real fast.

That's where the garbage cans are. Got it. Got it. Yeah. They're all so shitty dudes. There was one final topic I want to discuss with you guys. Please. All right.

So one of, one of the ways of sort of like saying something is not murder is just sort of saying that the right state of mind wasn't there. And what, well, first of all, just what manslaughter is, is when you didn't intend to do something that you made a mistake and you did it, you were negligent. So like any, essentially anything you do in a car, not murder.

It is like in the state of California, I think there is a really strong presumption that anything you do in a car is not murder. You wouldn't want to kill someone with your car. Yeah. Like you wouldn't be trying to kill someone with your car. Like if you shoot someone in a car, I'm not talking about that. Right.

Don't be crazy. Right. But just sort of like, you know, an accident is an accident. But again, like I don't know why I'm targeting all of this towards Georgia because of your attempt obsession. The difference between I hit somebody with my car and I hit somebody with my car and then it killed them. Yeah.

Is I accidentally hit someone with my car and then I killed them. Is you're going to jail for eight years. I knew a guy who fucking wait. Sorry. Sorry. I accidentally hit someone with my car and then it killed them.

You're going to jail. You're going to jail. Yeah. That's manslaughter. You've committed manslaughter. Even though it was an accident. I don't fucking drive even if you're buzzed because can you imagine two drinks and you drive and you accidentally kill

someone. I didn't realize that's what you were saying. That's horrifying. There's an extra level of that where there are things that you are doing that are accidents but are so dickishly stupid that they're called depraved heart. And so they're either called depraved heart manslaughter or in some states that's enough for murder.

I think I know a dude that that happened to. What's the example though? I went out into my balcony and I shot my machine gun just into space because I thought it was hilarious. I just drove my car into a farmer's market because I thought it would be funny. That's not the same thing. So I know a dude he was fucking high on math.

There was fucking traffic on the freeway and he decides to fucking gun it in the next to the fast lane like the pull off lane. Some fucking people had broken down in that lane and he comes around a curve and hits them and they fucking. It's been 15 years. That's completely depraved heart. It's horrifying.

He went to prison for a long time. It's a very interesting thing that for a long time I got so drunk or I got so stoned. Just meant that you had been negligent and not that you had intent. But like if you. Does that make sense? Is it now?

Does it now mean that? Like basically it would now probably be construed as depraved heart. Like you just you got yourself into a situation where you knew it was possible that you were might drive into somebody like that. Like I lived through I think we all lived through the time where we watched drunk driving become a bad thing.

Yes. Which is hilariously insane now. But like it was when I was 10 or 12 years old. I remember the it was I think it was a made for TV movie where like and it's a true story of the drunk driver who had been arrested for drunk driving eight times and then that he does it. He's the ninth but never went to jail. It was like here's your ticket ticket ticket.

He comes over the hill. It's the it's the story of the woman who founded mother driving. I remember that TV movie. Her kids walking in the middle of the street over a hill. He's drunk. He plows down two girls I think and yeah. And that's when they were like no more of this fucking business man who had a great lunch and sorry everybody bullshit.

You would think that they could that the parents could sue the city for that for never having punished him for all the eight fucking DUIs he already had. I think now they do stuff like that but like back then it was like oh but we all drink and drive. Yeah. You interestingly can't sue a city for things like that because of a thing called sovereign immunity.

Shut up. Where unless the state unless this like when the state is acting like a business like when they're when they're running like oh we take your garbage away or we're making power that stuff you can sue them over but we did the stuff that like only a state can do like we criminally prosecute like we failed at prosecuting them or whatever. It's like you treat them the same way you would the king of

just like no they're fine. Fucking police state motherfucker. What's interesting for against I mean I think we're fine right now. And we are cruising towards a police state in the near future in 2017. Let's work against is what we're saying. Interesting is the first like as we get more texting while

driving the thing is it's like texting while driving probably negligent driving while watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on your phone. No. Braved heart. Who does that. I feel like watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is a braved heart anyway.

It took me too long to say that. No it was good though. Thank you. Thank you. Can you think of any other way of getting rid of somebody's state of mind. First of all you're the best teacher I've ever had. I'm so sorry.

I can't ask questions. I'm so sorry. But you're the one you know all the answers. No this is the best. Brad. What can we think of another way of like obviating the. You can't say words like that. I was sort of removing the state of mind as one of the

elements. Drugs. The same thing is drugs is basically the sort of lowering it to negligence the way that we talked. Mentally capacitated. Mentally incapacitated. Except I said mentally capacitated. What's mentally capacitated about.

Not me. There are. Okay. So there are cool defenses like south defenses are great defense but there are cool defenses like duress. I'm always under duress. Yes. He had my child and he told me the only way he would let my

child out is if you know. I shot this person. Does that work for cats too because I was fucking. You little bitch if they had my cat. Okay. Based on the things that I have told you. Yeah. What do you think the standard would be.

What's the standard again. Based on the things you've told us. Based on the. Karen and I are great. I flunked out of a state school. I went to community college and just fucking out of class. How do we determine whether is threatening a cat enough for it to be duress on Georgia.

Oh. Because I because I'm in love and you can tell. I have a fucking if you have an Instagram and there's photo thing on it then you can fucking kill someone if she cradles the cat like a baby every night. Okay. So that is proof that Georgia actually felt like that would be terrible.

Yes. But you also have to ask. So I can do it. You also have to ask what a reasonable person. Oh. Kill the secretary of the interior to save their cat. I would do it. Just someone go ahead and say this is going to be in my trial.

But the other more interesting thing is like mental state. And so I just wanted to talk about a little bit about not guilty by reason of insanity. How much does that actually come up in these horrible horrible people that you guys discuss. The things I've been learning and reading about is that a lot of people try it and it's really easy to fucking just it's really easy to disprove it.

And the reality is it's a really fucking hard to prove and it's always an extreme case now. You can't just it's not it's not as easy as people think it's going to be. The guy that in Canada, I believe when a pig took the machete to the other guy's head on the bus. The province. Oh, Jesus.

The Cannibal episode. No. Winnipeg is a city. I was making fun of you. Don't do that. Is Winnipeg a manitoba? Yes, it is. Is this the Cannibal episode?

No, not cannibal. It's just the guy that went crazy on the Greyhound bus. Remember, and he killed the guy sitting next to him and then just went crazy. But didn't he eat a little bit of him? Yes. You're right. We had a cannibal episode and we were pretending to do things.

That's right. He ended up it was by reason of insanity because he was technically he was I believe schizophrenic, but not taking his medication because he it was it was like his family was basically judging him for being schizophrenic. Like you can't be crazy. But based on that, though, like if you're schizophrenic and you stop taking your meds, aren't you responsible for that?

Like you can't just stop taking your meds and kill someone. All right. Tell us everything. That's a good question. This is a 32 part question. It's been super hard. Also, have you guys done the Florida kid who ate the people in the garage yet?

Bath salts? I believe it was bath salts. Ate the face? Or was he on steroids? I don't know. There's a guy with a face on a highway, right? He ate it in a garage. I may have been bath salts, but there's footage of him walking

out of an Applebee's looking really weird. Who doesn't look weird when I walk out of an Applebee's? It took me too long to say that. Save it for year 15. Anyway, so basically there have been like a couple of big theories about how do we figure out is this person crazy enough. And the first one like started when a guy tried to kill the prime minister of Britain and the it's called the McNaughton

Rule, which was the rule for like a really long time. And that comes down to could they not tell the difference between right and wrong? Right. Which is like, that's sort of like the classic question. And it's also so weirdly subjective. Yeah. And like in the 60s, we started moving towards this new thing

called the Durham Test, which was trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding of things. And they, the question was, was this a result of your mental illness? Was the act a result of your mental illness? Yes. And then the president got shot. Oh, right.

Oh, yeah. For Jody Foster. Yes. Yeah. And what's his name said, not reasoned by guilty of insanity. And under the Durham Test, he was judged not guilty by reason of insanity.

And then every fucking state came back and passed laws that were like, fuck you, Durham Test. And so like they, some of them went back to the McNaughton Rule, some of them went in the direction of the thing called the Irresistible Impulse Test. That sounds like a new Avon perfume. Which is, it's kind of fruity. With a stinks of bullshit.

Irresistible Impulse is kind of that guy. Like the question is just, the classic question is, if there was a police officer standing by your elbow, would you still do it? Like Manitoba Bus Guy just feels like, yeah. No, no. He absolutely was convinced he had, that that guy was, like had a demon inside of him and he had to kill him.

That's a really great question. Yeah. And it's like you're in this other world. And it doesn't matter who's at your elbow. They're on your side. You know, the cops on your side and your fucking mind. Yeah. You're trying to protect that cop.

Right. Is essentially the mentality. And that, that also goes towards that McNaughton idea of can you just not tell the difference between right and wrong. But it's like, you know, you got molested as a kid until you think that's okay. And you won't, you know, molest another your kid. It's like, that's right.

That's what you're supposed to be doing. You know, it's in a, in a fucking pedophile's mind. The thing is, it's like a, it's at this point in time, it's super, super hard to get a not guilty by reason of insanity. And then there's also the thing of like, even if you do not guilty by reason of insanity, you're going to a mental hospital for what should be forever. Like what should be until you're cured, cured.

Though you guys recently had a horrifying story. Was it recent? Or I just listened to it recently. We don't remember anything. Somebody, somebody who went, somebody who got a not guilty by reason of insanity and then got out like within a year. Well, I feel like it was, I think it was a little bit longer than year, but our Greyhound bus guy is free now.

Oh, right. Is free now in Canada. Oh, it's so charming. Yeah. And also like, I always think of like mental facilities. Like, can I fucking go there for a week, please? But it's not like a yoga retreat. This is a fucking like shitty.

Well, also they don't exist anymore. Right. This is true. They don't. A friend of mine went to a women's jail in Japan. Oh my God, oh my God. I always just imagine that as the most amazing spa I just imagined. Was it all Hello Kitty stuff?

Fish and fish and rice three times a day. Oh my God. Light exercise. Like, like. Quiet. Topelin and clothing. Very quiet. Just say to facial bar.

Oh my God. You're just, there's a lot of exfoliating and gorgeous skin. Oh, the hair is just a little luscious. Dicks. But it's, but it's so small. It's like a small cube. Yeah. I mean, like my mom was a psychiatric nurse.

I had nurse edit mental hospital. And when proposition 13 passed and they closed most of the mental health facilities in California. And I think across the nation, I can't remember what if it was state 13 was just California. Yeah, it was California. But I mean, that was something that has declined. Like I think the Reagan administration cut funding for mental health and released a bunch of people. That's why there's a homeless fucking epidemic.

Because these are all people who should be in mental health facilities. They should be taken care of. And medicated and instead. So that kind of thing where these days, if it's not guilty by reason of insanity, where do they send people? I mean, there, there are just like deeply overbooked state mental hospitals and some that are, I believe specifically structured for people who have committed crimes. Oh, okay.

It's like a wing at a prison almost. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think California has that. Oh, Folsom, I think has is where the sort of like mentally ill people who have committed crimes. Let's go there right now. Let's do a Folsom trip.

You know, what's funny, my mom. So I may be totally wrong about that. And let's just remember I went to law school 16 years ago. This is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right. I was just gonna say really quick. There's a, there's a maximum security. It's a super max prison called Pelican Bay. That's up in Wayne, Northern California.

And my mom used to go with her friend. This is Man Willer. I can't remember her first name because Mrs. Man Willer was the kind of nurses. I think she was also a psychiatric nurse and she would go there and give like tests to the residents for some reason. I can't remember what she was doing. I don't want to talk to her so bad. My mom would just go along and stay at the hotel, like read a book.

And then they would like go to a fun dinner. I'm like, you're intentionally going to Pelican Bay where like it's basically all about this super max prison. It's where they put. It's her vacay. It was her vacay. That's right. And she was like, of course I'll go.

I'll just go up there with her. They have this great Italian place. And meanwhile, inside the prison are like all, it's all the Hannibal Lectors of like California. But she didn't have to deal with you and your sister. So true. So true. When I was in law school in Minnesota, they took us to go see the prisons.

It's a weird thing of like, I'm from California where we have so, like we should have so many of these things. Minnesota was basically just like, there are two maximum security prisons. And one of them was like 1800s. Or clink, kind of like that thing and one of them was like Oz, like state of the art. State of the art. There's like a bubble where you can run the whole place from there. And they were making like kindergarten mats.

That was the thing that they did was they made little mats for kindergarten. Oh, nice. And it was, you know, terrifying. It was legit terrifying to see what life there would be like. Well, we talked about this when we were both watching the night of. We talk about it all the time. How it's like, we want them people that do horrible things to be locked away forever and no sentence seems long enough and all that stuff.

Then you watch the night of and you're like four minutes as a, as a prisoner inside of in any of those places is an absolute horror show nightmare. Like then you start to, it makes me think about it. The, the complexity of when you get, you know, when you actually get found guilty for a crime like that and you go away for 11 years because you did this thing and you literally are delivered into the bowels, bowels of hell and hopefully, hopefully you stay alive. Like that, that does count for something where we always want it to be 50 years or whatever. But like is, is 11 years enough when it's that level of suffering and fear and constant horror.

But what did you do to your victims that they had a similar experience? That's private, what I did to my victims. No, I know, no, absolutely. But it's also like, that's why it's also, I'm also so interested in like cases where it's like, did they get the right guy? Because the thought of walking in there and being like, I have 11 years and I didn't fucking do this. There's nothing more horrifying than those stories of, yeah, I was in there for seven years and then like they got the DNA like, like technology to figure out, I couldn't have remotely done this.

That's a hundred years more. It's not seven years, it's fucking dog years. It's, I hate those stories so much. Wrongly accused is like, it's just, it's so terrible. How do you convince people? So in that situation, you can sue for deprivation of your civil rights. I think if you can show sort of like, like misconduct on the part of the, or just sort of like, failure to do their jobs properly.

On the part of the prosecution. And so like, if someone else gets caught and convicted, then you can, you can, like if they find someone else's DNA and they let you go, it's one thing. But if they find someone else's DNA and they find that person and convict them, then you probably have more leeway. Well, what you would do is if they find DNA that relates to your case, then you would, there's a thing called a, like a habeas corpus act, where Is it like mencies?

Oh my God, I got my mencies on my habeas corpus day. Habeas corpus is just, it means like present the body. And the thing is, is that's a, a direct, like a direct thing where you get to go to an appeals court and say like, look, this means there's no possible way. He did it. And then like, those are the things that like people in jail are constantly trying to like pursue themselves and you get occasional TV movies about the one guy who managed to like get himself out.

The Innocence Project tries to do too, right? Right. Right. And don't you think that Beyonce should record a song called present the body? Wear the chorus. And then like in parentheses is this habeas carpet. That's right. Exactly.

Or the chorus. Yeah. Habeas chorus. So you should be, I mean, if there is DNA evidence of that sort, you should be doing a better job of getting yourself out there than the state is doing of prosecuting somebody else. Like it's on you. Like it's, it's on, it's, it's on you, but also it should be able to happen quicker, I would think than the state going and trying to get that other person.

From jail? From, we're saying there's an innocent person in jail. Yeah. And there is a person out there who actually committed the crime that like the minute they find the DNA that couldn't possibly be yours, then your lawyer can file a habeas corpus. And, you know, the like the police will be or whoever it is will in the DNA experts will all be like, nope, nope, nope. And you can get that done.

And it seems like finding the person and all of that who actually did it would be a longer process than the habeas corpus. Okay. I understand. That's a lot. I don't know that I understand. You sounded real smart just now. I'm sorry.

Are you just saying as opposed to the finding the guilty man, it's just proving it's not you? It's just proving it's not you. Okay. Got it. And like it was just that, yeah, Georgia's question was like, basically can there be two people in jail for the same murder at the same time and kind of no. Oh, got it.

Unless they were like collaborated on it. What about the guy who eventually got prosecuted by the army? Oh, yeah. Did you hear that one? No. That's the crazy when we started talking about double jeopardy. But I mean, anytime I'll just say a thing where I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is the word I should be saying, but I can't have like a debate about because I don't really know

what I'm talking about. But it was, you know, you know, he got tried and convicted of a triple homicide that got overturned and he got, and he was declared innocent. Then they found years later, it's the summerland road murders. And then years later, they found DNA, you know, once DNA technology was around tying him to the murders. And so because they couldn't try him for double jeopardy because of double jeopardy, because he'd already been convicted and then deemed innocent.

He had been in the army at the time. And so they reinstated him and then he was tried by one of the army people. I don't know. What's it called? NCIS. Mark Harman. Yeah. That's because those are different laws and different jurisdiction, no, because they're

different laws because they're different jurisdictions, but isn't that so that doesn't count as double jeopardy if the army steps in and is like, we're going to try it over here? That's because he violated a different law for committing murder while a member of the army. Or if he had crossed state lines with a kidnapped victim, then the FBI or the U.S. could try him, right? Yeah.

So it's an interesting thing that like you can't, I don't think you can be convicted of like, can you be convicted of both federal and state murder if they are, if it is both a federal and state murder? I would think so because there is a different requirement, but there is this thing where if all of the elements of your crime are also all of the elements of a different crime, you can't be convicted for both of them. So like going back to me, going back to me punching Stephen. Uh-oh.

Going back to that. What if Stephen Seuss, you're just for this example? Threatened. All of the things that I did to punch Stephen were battery, but they were in the situation where I killed him. It was also murder, which means if you prosecute me for murder and I am convicted of murder, I cannot be convicted of the battery. That was, you know, that was part of it.

So with that, I assume the thing is that like the, the failure was on the part of like the state law, like, um, because there was clearly some sort of, um, technical failure in prosecuting it under the state law, um, you, um, he cannot be retried under the state, but they're all of the facts still occurred. I just wonder like, you know, as, as science and technology advances, just should double jeopardy like depend on compelling evidence, you know, when we someday can, can use, you know, DNA in the fucking nineties wasn't what it is today in the early 2000s. And so there's so many cases that they're going to find something bigger in 2025 when

we know more. And it is so hard, it is very, very hard when we constantly have new technology that gives us more information. And when you tried somebody under what like criminal research was in 1984, you want to have another stab at it in 2016. But I believe in the idea of like, no, you get like statute of limitations. Let's deal with it now. And you kind of have to deal with it under the terms of now, and you can't go back and

it's hard with things like cold cases and stuff like that. And it's also up to the prosecution to decide if they actually have a case that they can win. So if you don't, then you should fucking wait until you do, which is why they don't try a lot of weight though, non body, except for the fact that you've got the, the, um, yes, speedy trial, but, but the thing is, is speedy trial only starts once they arrest you. And so don't arrest someone and tell you.

Yeah. And the thing that's interesting is like, we knew she was dead in 1967, but if we get information that says, Oh, so and so did it in 19 or in 2016, then you can go and get that guy. It's not like statute of limitations is told because, um, wait, has it? I don't know. This is murder, yeah, never for murder, yeah, but yeah, so like you just kind of have to wait until you have enough stuff that is a case.

Yeah. Fuck man. Yeah. Fuck. Wow. I'm funny. No, this is horrifying. I've forgotten so much about this stuff.

Hi. You are amazing. Welcome to our world. I'm sorry for all of your listeners who are like, wait, what? There's only 500 lawyers out there that listen to this. This is terrible. Also, also the worst part about this is that I love giggling to myself about Karen calling Winnipeg a province or Manitoba a city, but now you're going to get all of the lawyers

writing millions of listeners. Have you seen her fucking listeners? They send us sweet honesty shit. They're going to make a quilt about how I got the law wrong. No, what's going to happen is someone's going to be like a meme of a quilt and it's adorable and charming and everyone loves it. No, I think this is so satisfying because basically for a year straight, we've been throwing out what we think and kind of with the intention of like, we'll probably get

back around to this and have an answer eventually or whatever, but arguing like, well, this is not arguing with each other, but like saying like, this should be this way. And it's like one year's way. It's not that way. Right. I like that. And the thing is, I do, I, like after law school, I was just so terrified. Every time I got behind the wheel of a car, please let me not kill someone this time.

Yes. Now I will be that way too. But the paranoia of like, once you're in the criminal justice system, it is so horrifying and they have the right to take your life away from you that I do, like however annoying it may seem, I do really believe in all of those little constitutional things that are like, if you don't do it all right, then this person has to go, like this person gets off like, and watching the Supreme court kind of like scrape away at some of those things. Like it used to be if anything remotely like uncoture had happened in like searching for

something, that evidence was the fruit of the poisonous tree and could never be used. And they've started to be a little bit more, yeah, even though you didn't have a warrant for him, it's fine that you got that and that terrifies me. Even though it's finding people who actually are guilty, mostly of drug crimes and stuff like that. I'm just like, I want all of the protections I can have so that the state can't throw me away forever. That's right.

That's the, I think ultimately that's the thing. It's like once, when we start talking about, because we are talking about cases most of the time, we're talking about cases where we know the person did it. So then when we opine, it's with a passion of God damn it, these people have their lives taken away by this person who we know is bad because it's been proven somebody else did all the work and we just get to say, yes, get rid of this person because they got rid of other people and that sucks. But when we get into those cases where it's a question mark, you still have the same feelings

of bad people should pay for ruining other people's lives. Well, it's interesting guy that you think of it from your side of being the person who's prosecuted where I think of it as being the victim and all the little things that I'll need to do. I have all of my day planners from the past like five years, so if I ever need to say where I am or what I was doing or like testify for somebody else or if I use my credit card, every time I use my credit card at a fucking parking meter, I think, okay, well, this is going to be a trail of where I was that day in case something happens.

Yeah. Well, it goes both ways though, because it also could be a trail of something that proves you were at a parking meter instead of it like, yeah, I don't think about that. I'm a white fucking female. I'm not, I don't need to worry as much. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it is that situation of like, I'm just not scared of incidental crime in

the same way, like somebody might rob me, you know, or like there is random sort of, I'm also just not, I'm not the most bashable gay guy. So I feel like you're almost unbashable. But let's not say that, but it is like the, I think there's maybe like more randomness to the kind of crime and like why somebody might murder me than for, for women, you know, like, Like we're always vulnerable, no matter what. But also the thing of the weird thing about reading those cases and listening to your

stuff is realizing that somebody can just like bounce into your world and for no reason cause such horror and pain for just, for something that doesn't even make sense to me. And it's a shockwave of your family and friends and fucking peripheral people in your, it just pisses me off so much that these fucking assholes can take away so much by just having a fucking random feeling to kill someone. Or drug addiction. Or drug addiction. So often it's just the dumbest, like they were on meth and they didn't know what they

were doing or they were on meth and it made them this crazy violent or whatever, where it's just like, but there's all these people that don't do meth and live, you know, live legal lives. Well, I mean, the things where I do get into the mindset of the victim are more sort of like the evidentiary things of like, if this person's not around, we don't get to rely on the fact that they can't, you know, that you're allowed to admit hearsay evidence for a dead person because they can't testify on their behalf. And you think it's not fair?

No, I think it's wonderful. The best thing, like there are parts of the law that like feel like magic, that really are just like such old ancient magic. And my favorite one is the dye, your dying utterance is always admissible. No. Yes. What? So your dying utterance is like, because the thing is, is like, it's, that's the name

of this episode. Your dying utterance. It's hearsay. So hearsay is something somewhat, you can't testify about stuff that somebody told you. You can only testify about stuff that you like experienced yourself, but when it is your dying utterance, because there's no you around anymore, like that is always admissible and at least just to be considered. Yes.

It doesn't, it doesn't mean like it does, it's just like throw that in there with everything else. Why is that? Okay. Why is it? Okay. So my sister says to me, I'm really scared that my husband's going to kill me that and I say that and she gets killed and I say that that's hearsay.

Um, yes, it's hearsay, but hearsay is admissible some of the time. Okay. But if you were, as she was dying, leaned over and she said it in your ear, he's the one that did it. That seems like, okay, that's fair, but that seems like the opposite of how it should be. Like she's been telling me this shit for years. Okay. Well, the thing is, is like, um, after your brother-in-law testifies about stuff, about

how things were fine. Andy, I love you. I know you're not a murderer. We have to say that I just realized that was like, that you're, the example sounds like not. I don't mean that you're allowed. I mean, there is something about how, um, hearsay from dead people, there's a separate rule about hearsay from dead people being more admissible, but also you can admit hearsay

to impeach his testimony. So if he says things were fine, right, then I had the best of relationships, then we can bring Georgia to the stand and Georgia says, okay. She told me 19 times and I wrote them down on the little pad in my kitchen and the little pad from your kitchen is also admissible. Okay. That makes sense. I like that.

And also emails these days, which last forever. So wonderful. I'm keeping a fucking pad in my kitchen from now on and I'm writing down every time anything happens. Good idea. Right? Yeah. And then you can write a book.

Just intense detail of every single thing that happens to you. My mom has a situation that Karen kind of knows about that's just like, um, where there might come this situation where she needs to testify about something and she's always just like, well, I put it on my pad, I wrote it down. Got. That's all you need. She really does that. Yes.

Oh my God. That's hilarious. That's why I keep my, my, um, like my daily calendars is like, I'll remember something if I see that I went to this fucking doctor or whatever that year or that day. Having documents for stuff is just so exciting from a legal perspective. You do discovery. That means the other side gets a copy of your calendar. So, so, so many copies.

Oh, I went to core reporting school for a year. I know this shit. I would actually say too, that in almost like the inverted version of this that I think of is like in my family, there was a ton of death when I was young and it was all a lot of it like surprising and one after the other. And that's when I just decided I'm going to do what I fucking want because when we talk about the random stuff or when we talk about being a woman and walking with fear at night or whatever it is, it's this thing where any this, that's, that is the deal of life.

That is what born, being born into this life. That's the situation. It's the same, you know, it's different for different people for different reasons. But in general, we are all constantly at risk. We all have the specter of death hanging over us all the time. It's why some people love true crime. It's why some people love to paint. It's why some people can't stop jogging, whatever the fuck it is.

But ultimately, I feel like I had this kind of weird realization as a young child who's like this fucking sucks and it could end at any second. Well, the thing of like it could be somebody with a machete on a bus or the amount of potassium in your system. Yeah, exactly. Like, so then why not be like, oh, sorry, I meant to tell you, I'm totally in love with you. Or why not go do stand up comedy that you're scared to death of doing, but why not do it

because it's the thing in your heart that you want to do. Like you might as well. This is your one fucking shot. And you can sit there lining up all the things that are the reasons why you should be scared or you can go, well, I should be really scared because this whole situation is really scary. So why be scared about the one thing I really want to do? Why not just fucking do it then? 26.

Yeah. That's 2017. That's 2017, baby. 2017 is how Karen is doing it. And everybody else if you would like to join me. How long have we been talking eight hours? So long. Should we each do one murder from our...

Cards? ...our true crime cards? Yes. Draw a murder like it's tarot cards. All right. So in the stack of these true crime playing cards that Steven Moriss gave us last week, we're each going to draw one and we're going to read about it. It's just like playing cards and it's murder.

Oh shit, you guys. All right. I'm going to do one. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Okay. Who wants to go first?

Karen, you sound excited. Should she go last? Um... Guy seems disheartened. Guy, do you want to read... Wait. Hold on. I think this...

This might be what... No. Hold on. What I said last. No. It's the McNaughton rules. Oh. Shut up.

I fucking just pulled the card. That's crazy. Okay. Let me read this. The McNaughton rules. That was the try line. We'll just... We'll double check your work.

In 1843, Daniel McNaughton, a Glasgow woodworker, shot the secretary to the British prime minister. Holy shit. What the fuck? That's... Oh, guys. I have tingly tingles right now. I have five packages of these. This is the one we open and that's the one you fucking...

What is life? I wasn't looking. They were upside down. This is not big. What is happening? He had intended to kill the prime minister but was unclear as to his appearance at his trial. McNaughton suffering from delusions of persecution proclaimed the Tories route to get him.

The jury found him to be insane and not responsible for the magnitude of his crime. He was to be sent to an institution. Concerned parliament members convened a panel of judges to explain this. Their answer forms the McNaughton rules, which are this, jurors are to be informed that the accused is presumed to be sane as he or she is presumed to be innocent. To establish a defense on the basis of insanity, the accused must be disturbed enough to not know the nature and quality of what he or she did or, if knowing it, to know it was wrong.

If the accused labors under partial delusion only, he or she must be considered in the same situation as to responsibility as if the facts with respect to the delusion were real. These British rules, commonly called the insanity defense, have been adopted in America and Canada and have been tested hundreds of times since their inception. In the cases of serial killers such as Ted Bundy, Edward Gein, I like when they call them Edward, Kenneth Bianchi and Jeffrey Dalmer. The atrocities committed have led defense lawyers to attempt to prove insanity while

this strategy was successful in the case of the obviously dysfunctional Gein. Most such defenses prove futile because the sociopathic personality, while deviant in his desires, is often not out of touch with reality and jurors usually decide that a killer functional enough to hide his or her crimes can be presumed to be aware of wrongdoing. And I would just like to say that these are true crime series. This is from true crime series for serial killers and mass murders by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collier. Ladies.

Ladies. And the art is by Paul Lee, Eclipse Enterprises, just in case anybody wants to, oh, it's in Forestville, which is right by Petaluma. Who is Ed Gein again? Ed Gein is the one that basically killed several people, women in his town, killed his mother. Psycho is based on him as well as Silence of the Lambs. He's the one that made furniture. He wore his mother's face at night.

Was there a nipple belt? Yes. A nipple necklace. A nipple belt. You're right. And he danced with his like different parts of his mother under the moonlight. He was out of his goddamn mind. Did you guys hate the movie Copycat?

You mean, you mean with Sandra Bullock? No. Who was the one with Harry Connick Jr. and Sigourney Weaver? Oh, I like that movie. Oh, really? Yes. I always just thought that his, his serial killerness was so dorky compared to actual serial killerness.

He hadn't refined his acting style as he had eventually done in Hope Floats. But I enjoy everything that's happening also because it's in San Francisco, right? Yes, it is. And it's amazing. And Sigourney Weaver wears a lot of suits and Holly, Sigourney Weaver and Holly Hunter. But I just, anytime Karen like is just on board for an actor, her love of Sandy Bullock, I'm just like... When Sandy cries, I cry.

How can Karen love this part? It's in me. I want to do it. I think he wants someone to dig that out. And I think Sandra Bullock does it for you every time. She does it, but I have to say, like, not the proposal Sandy, where she's kind of... The proposal is so good. It's good, but that's, that's, my Sandy is more eight weeks notice.

I will watch eight weeks notice anytime, wherever it is, beginning, middle, or end. Okay. I feel the same way. I'm the same way with Steel Magnolias. Oh. And Sleeping with the Enemy. I will fucking turn that on no matter what. That movie is so good.

Steel Magnolias just goes down so smooth, like it just, it's so, it's so smooth. It's a gin and tonic on a hot day. It's wonderful. Do you want to go last because you're the guest? Okay. When it's terrible, I feel like it will be an anti-climax. Do you want another one? No, it's good.

Go for it. Okay. I just, no, I'm budding in. Okay. James Reagan. I mean, I guess by his fucking face and goddamn Fedora that he's a mobster. He was born in 1881, began his crime career as a slugger for the Chicago Tribune during new circulation wars of the 1920s.

That sounds boring. In 1940, his continental press, this is so boring. Oh God. It's like about wire service and bookies. There's some people listening, they're like, oh my God, finally, wire service crime. Okay. The Chicago mob on continental press, they control illegal book making, it's about book making and mobs.

Throw it away, rip it up. I'm not. I can't. I don't care. But they were going to kill someone eventually. And they, like. These are so boring. That there was wires involved made in federal crime.

I'm so excited. That's right. Those G-men were going to come in and really take care of me and look at a guy that looks creepy. Okay. Here we go. Okay. Richard Tingler, Jr.

Yes. It's like a really creepy drawing of like an alien trying to look like a man. He looks like he has plucked his eyebrows without using a mirror. Totally. Richard Tingler, Jr. was an illegitimate child born in 1940. Not his fault. I just want to go ahead and point that out. That's right.

That's right. His mother often taunted him for his quote, sinful birth and beat him. What a fucking cut. I mean, she started it. Oops. Sorry. She totally started it. He lived home by enlisting in the Air Force in 1959 while stationed in Alaska.

He went AWOL with a friend and was arrested for burglary. In February, 1961, he was released in Chillicothe, Ohio. Six months later, he was arrested on 13 counts of breaking and entering, sentenced to one to 15 years in state prison and was paroled in August 64. He broke parole with more burglars and returned to prison. On September 16th of that year, four bodies, three male, were found shot to death in a Cleveland park. One month later, he robbed a dairy bar in Columbus.

What's a dairy bar? Just like people go there to drink milk. Just take shots of milk. Just drink milk and... I mean, another play pool. He strangled the manager into unconsciousness and shot two teenage workers. Identified by the manager, he was indicted on six counts of murder and became one of the FBI's most wanted in November of 1968.

Using the alias Don Williams, Tingler secured work at an Oklahoma farm. March 30th, 1969, his photograph with broadcast in an episode of the FBI. Oh, my God. Can we get fucking... What's the... There was a show called The FBI in 1969, which we fucking need. We need it. What?

How is no one... Put it on the list. Video historians. Come on. Let us have it. Put it on Amazon. Museum of television and radio. That's all I was just going to say.

We can go to the Museum of television and radio and watch it. Okay. Is this like... I don't know what that is. Is it like... It's in Beverly Hills. Exactly. But with video.

He vanishes in April. He shoots and robs a middle-aged man, then goes home to the farm, erratic behavior, attracted the attention, blah, blah, blah. FBI agents arrested Tingler in May, extradited to face charges in Ohio, convicted of murder and sentenced to die. His sentence was committed to life imprisonment when the death penalty was overturned. Tingler. Kind of boring.

I just wanted more insight. I just, oh, these parents were unmarried is the only thing we got for why he did all of this. When also just you shoot four people, what was that situation? I feel like they make him seem diabolical and really he's just a fucking drifter who just doesn't give... who has no emotional attachment to people. It's not that... But do we know that?

What was that four-person murder? Yeah. It doesn't sound like he's got... He's got a soul. He's missing a chip. Yeah. Were there more drifters in the 60s, do you think? I feel like road card writers, is that a thing?

You mean... Hippies. I feel like half the hippies were like... Hippies, I mean, hippie... I feel like half the hippies were just people who were like, fucking great, I gotta do this and fuck hot hippie girls. Awesome. Hot runaways.

That's very true. I think so. I mean, it's called Charles Manson. Poor 70s runaways. Like, it is... You stupid idiot. This show is such a beautiful tribute to runaways because I forget that they exist and then it feels like every other episode there's a 14-year-old girl who starts to strike out on her own.

That's cool. She either decides to strike out on her own or the cops go, I don't know, she ran away but she'll come back. Yeah. It's that old story. They make hippies seem like such free spirits and it's really just like kids from like small towns who are like, I want to go do a thing and they're like, oh shit and then have to do terrible things to get money and survive and they're like, I made a fucking huge mistake

and those videos of them like dancing and having fun, it's like, no, you're having a terrible trip around a bunch of sober people. I feel like the core difference between hippies and hipsters was a graphic design degree from a decent school that allows you to like have that studio apartment in San Francisco or you know, Oakland or extended Brooklyn where you can be fine. The difference is whether or not you choose to be in the park. Are you sleeping in the park or did you just walk down to the park to get high? Karen, let me tell you the most beautiful San Francisco story I have.

Can you tell me too, guys? I was in the, yes, Stephen, close your eyes. Stephen, you can come. You can include Georgia. Okay. So, I was at, I went to the bathroom at the McDonald's that like a butt's golden gate park. Oh, that's where the Amoeba is.

Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. Do you have Bay Area origins? Yes, I live there for a while. So, I walked into the bathroom and there was the most adorable twink covered in, in, in tracks. Covered in IV drug use tracks, shaving like the, the barely there beard that he had because it was an adorable twink.

What year? Um, 90s, eight or like 2002 and with a disposable razor and then as he finished, he offered it to him. He was like, do you want to shave and I was like, no, I'm good. It was like, like that's San Francisco. Like that is San Francisco, especially in the late 90s. Yes. It varied.

You can't share razors. No. Told you. Not a thing. Okay. I want to keep talking about fucking San Francisco in the 90s, but that's another episode. Should I read Lugong? That's for the end of night of 2017.

Yeah, that's right. Were we doing all San Francisco episodes of just terrible stories of, yes, what a bummer it was. Me stealing toilet paper from bars, just a dark time. Me going to Berkeley and being scared to go into the city. The core question of my first years of standup were, do I have 375 to get to the city every bridge? Oh my God.

All right. Lugong was born in 1963 in Beijing, China, one of three children. His father was a clerk and his mother was a doctor. Good for them. Feminism. That's right. That's not a comment. That's not a comment.

His math skills blossomed in junior high and he won academic awards and eventual admission to Beijing University. On graduation in 1985, he entered the University of Iowa to study physics. This is a terrible, like we're, we're taking like a Chinese guy to America's heartland to where all of our serial killers. Oh, nothing happened. All right. Everything was fine.

He's the guy on the card though. We'll see. Upon graduation in 1985, the University of Iowa in 1980 took true mates at his tiny apartment, but both found him slovenly and superior. He was a loner, bad tempered and not well liked. He became a graduate assistant and qualified for a PhD program. Can I guess? Jesus.

This guy's going to be a shooter. That's my guess. Kill his teacher. For giving him a bad grade. In the summer of 1987, an IU professor took Lugang to an international conference in Europe. Upon his return, he became disenchanted with physics. That happens to all of us.

Me too. Yeah. And the scores began to fail. He also began to pay prostitutes for companionship. Nothing wrong with that. Just hand-holding. In 1991, a large cash award he had hoped for was granted instead to a rival. He was incensed and began to file complaints.

He also bought a gun, bought a gun, bought a gun, here we go, here we go, bought a gun. He received his doctorate but still complained of a conspiracy against him. No. Nope. None. No. Just go get tenure somewhere. In 1991, Lugang closed out his savings account, packed up his belongings, and sent them home.

On November 1st, he walked into a graduate seminar, and he shot his professor. Oh my God. It's rival. Oh my God. I fucking know that. It's like everybody wins on this one. And the professor's protege. I win.

He calmly reloaded, walked into the department chairman's office, and killed him. As students called 911, Lugang killed the university associate vice president and the woman who had been handling the complaints. How have we never heard about this? Poor administrative official. Oh my God. And wounded her secretary. Oh, I've been a secretary.

That sucks. Then he went to an empty. She doesn't even get like any of the glory of like, I'm a professor of this, but she's all the same shit. She wanted to go home and watch fucking Nash Bridges and have a fucking white line. All she did was file. Then he went to an empty room and killed himself. The six victim murder spray and suicide took 20 minutes.

Wait, what year was it? Like in the 80s? Was he one of the first? 91. See, like one of the first college shooters, I wonder. Oh, no. It's, I mean, aside from in college, I wonder, do they, if it's not out of college, do they call it a college shooting?

Yeah. No, it was out of college. Yeah. It was at the University of Iowa. Yeah. Speaking of which, there's something I have to discuss with you guys after the show is over. Oh my God.

What is it? Is it law? It's a school shooting that I've been planning. I've just been working on it. You know this is admissible in court, right? Yes. Oh my God. That was crazy.

That was crazy. Oh God, everything's the worst. It always ends this way. Can we have a good thing? Because I'm really, like this week has been shitty because I'm looking at Facebook too much and like reading all these horrible fucking headlines and like fucking Aleppo and all this crazy awful shit's happening. Yeah.

Let's talk about a good thing this week. I don't have one. Do you guys have one? I have a fake good thing that is just me taking, attempting to leverage your ridiculous success and make it beneficial for me. But Georgia Hardstark is probably going to be guesting on my podcast Pop Rocket in January. Oh nice. I'm sorry.

And also let me be clear. When I said to Karen, hey, maybe I could come on and explain some legal things. It was not just me trying to get on, you're astounded. Oh. It's the point of the city. It was me. Yeah. Like look, when we all listen to podcasts, we all want to yell back at the podcast, which

is essentially the only reason I listen to podcasts. It's the fun. We're just my friends. It's the fun of it. It's the fun of it. You're making me look important. And I'm going to fucking Instagram it. It's great.

We both win. You'll get to talk about non, you'll get to talk about murder things, but you'll also get to talk about some fun non-murder things. I don't know anything about non-murder. Also we have a little information now. So going forward, whenever these things come up, at least going to be like, I think this was that thing that I was talking about. Yeah.

However, and we can like know it weren't. That's exactly right. And we'll start wearing office outfits. I would say my good thing for the week is that I am lucky enough, and I mentioned this on our last episode, uh, to be working on Guy Branham's new show for true TV called talk show, the game show. And we sit in a room. It's actually very much like the, my favorite murder family because we sit in a room with

a Jamie Lee from our bell house episode. She's the greatest. And Louis Katz who is so hilarious and Chase Bernstein who is a hilarious standup comic who is our writer's assistant. And we sit in that room and we spend, you know, 45 minutes working on the script. We're supposed to get done relatively soon. And then we spend the rest of the day laughing our asses off and very actively talking about like, it'll start of the discussion starts about what we need to figure out for the thing.

And it'll always end up in like some kind of inner standup theorizing that is so hilarious. And I just feel grateful that I have a job that instead of draining me of my lifeblood, it actually, the time goes by so fast and it is so enjoyable and the opposite of stressful for fucking once it is the most fun. And I find so fascinating that headspace where you're trying to find something to be depressed or scared or sad about like a friend of mine was recently just like obsessing about the possibility that he might die. And I'm like, you will die, but the thing is, is he's happy.

He's happy and he's trying to figure out a reason that he doesn't deserve to be happy. Well, it's scary to be happy. So he's like imagining that we'll be taken away from him. And I think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic with that like that mindset of like, that's where you're going right now and you don't really don't have to beat myself up about that a lot. Oh, it's hard. It's hard.

Well, and also the good thing that we have is that we're all full of sparkling wine, which is the most fun. Not me. I'm the opposite of full of sparkling wine. But also the thing is guy keeps talking about where like, he'll talk about in preparation for when it all goes bad. Like you keep bringing that up to me and it's so hilarious to me where it's like, we almost don't even have time for this all to go bad.

It's going to be done so quickly. Yeah. So I think a basic degree of paranoia is something any like the lovely thing about LA is you've seen so many untalented people get amazing opportunities and it's just so it's so weird. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I just think the most hilarious thing is that the most negative person on the planet, Karen Kilgera, who will scoff at anyone's sort of little project that her second podcast is a rousing success against her personality. Yes, it completely goes against her personality.

Like Karen Kilgera is a person who's like deepest soul is going a second podcast. I tried not to start it, but we really just had we had to make it happen. This was delightful. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for letting me cross over into the world of my favorite murder because at 50 episodes or how many episodes is it? This will be 49.

Yeah. It's it's been beautiful being taken through those hundred stories and it's very fun to get to cross over and get to play with you guys. We always say how nice it is when people we like like the podcast. Yeah. So that's really cool. If you guys haven't already, please listen to the podcast Pop Rocket. It is so awesome.

They talk about pop culture stuff, but it's a it's a it's a discussion panel informed as this. No, it feels like it's very it felt very produced to me when I was on it where I was almost a little bit like I don't know if I have the right answer and you're just like I'm asking you your opinion. It's like everybody felt very they had big opinions about things. So I was like, I don't know if I have opinions here and you just got to get loud and get sparkly wind.

That's right. I can't. No. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks to Stephen Ray Morris of the Percast for being our amazing audio engineer. Yes. He's who I'm thankful for this week because when I go out of town, which is a fucking

anxiety written thing for me because I hate leaving the cats, the fact that he now takes care of them like fills my heart with joy because they love him and that it makes it less anxious for me to go away. That's awesome. You got one. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Very good. I don't know. Go to my favorite murder and do stuff. Yeah. Go on. Oh my God. There's games and puzzles and you can join the raffle. It's going to be so awesome.

Thanks you guys for listening. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Thank you for being here with us all through 2016. Yeah. We've had a great time. I mean, we're going to fucking pepper spray. You know, it's a good thing.

Yeah. I mean, in a good way. It's not a possibility. Like we're going to fucking kick it. We're going to kick it. You know what I mean? Like we're going to fucking pepper spray it. Okay.

Let's assault 2017. We're going to make it our bitch. We're going to take keys between the knuckles to 2017's bolts. Exactly. Thank you guys. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Bye.

Elvis, do you want to cook heat? Do you want to cook heat? There we go. You guys actually do that? I always assume there was just like one track of it that was used every time. Why do you think he sits out here? Because he fucking knows what's going to happen. He comes over here and he knows.