My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 50 - The Golden Anniversary Episode

Episode Date: January 5, 2017

Rock, paper, scissors... it's My Favorite Murder! On this episode, Karen and Georgia delve into the mystery of the Somerton Man and discuss the 1984 bioterror attack by followers of the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Are you? Get it out now. Are you? Oh, they're not supposed to know about your pre-show cry. Hello everybody. Are we recording? I wish you guys knew what a nightmare it was from when Karen got here in my apartment until we started recording. I just asked for an eight minute sob before we start just to get it out. Yeah. It's better. Is it? For me. This is my favorite worder. That's right. That's Karen. That's Georgia.

That's Georgia. There's nothing worse than when we do it correctly. I feel like it feels terrible to do it right. Well, this is that kind of podcast. Like this isn't that. This isn't. There's no second takes. Although I have to say, I would love if Steven could ever get his act together for a little bit of just a little bit of intro music. Can we please? Wouldn't it be fun? Just play like your theme song, like out loud in the apartment. Yeah. Or yes, you could do that. Or if you got a keyboard, throw it over to the bossa nova rhythm. Yeah. Get us pumped. Get us a little, just a little like talking intro music. Like loud enough that it's over the crying over Karen's sobbing. So they're like, I can ignore it. I wind the

sobbing out slowly and you intro the. And that way I don't accidentally introduce a different podcast. That's a good idea. Well, I mean, or whatever comes out. What if we just have it as the whatever comes out allowance? That reminds me. Oh, what are we going to call our tour? So we have a tour. We don't, but I think it'd be funny to have just a bunch of ideas of names and like never settle on one. Okay. Well, then my first idea is Monsters of Rock. What's your first idea? The F word murder mystery tour. Great. Then we have to give a cut to someone's dad who ever made up that name. We could also do just we could call ourselves the Gen Blossoms. I'm all minor band jokes. It's not good. Should we do? No. Yeah, I guess I don't

need one. I mean, I would have signed behind us. No, like at the show. Nope. Who's going to make it? Who's going to hang it? Hang it or make it. Stephen just raises. Oh, we're just going to we're going to keep piling shit on you that you have to fucking do. What if we call it Stephen's Piles tour? The Piles of Stephen. What's that mean? It's just Piles of Shady has to do tour. Oh, I get it. I get it. I get it. It's called. I like that you immediately lost track of what was happening. Piles, but like I thought I was thinking like, like Gomer Piles. So I was thinking going Steven's Steven Piles, like Gomer Piles. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Great. What if we cancel the tour? Because this is such a problem. It can't be solved.

Cool. What if we call it the dry shampoo tour? Because I swear to God, I planned on bathing before I came here, but I didn't. I was doing other stuff. This is a safe place to not bathe. Oh my God. But I the amount of dry shampoo I've started depending on lately. Do you use it to? Yes. And your hair looks full and it looks like you look like a mod, like, yeah, like a mod model, model, like it's full and bouncy. And I fucking love it. Oh, okay. Thank you. That's great. I'm going to start doing that then. I also think I might need more layers. Not we should not. I love it. I love it. Thanks. Oh, yeah. So, oh, you guys loved the year end guy, Brennan spectacular episode. Yes. Thanks for all your

positive feedback on that. Yeah. We're going to definitely have him back on. I don't love that it was one of your favorites because I'm sorry, what have we been doing this fucking 50 episodes? Hey, look, we get it. Yeah. Yeah, we get it. We get it. You like when there's someone else talking to us. Anyone else. Anyone else who has correct information. Look, fine. We'll do it. We'll fine. We'll be fucking smart then and we'll do it. Watch this. Watch how much you don't enjoy this. I'm going to name every state in every Roman numeral right now. I can kick off a corrections corner by saying yes. The Sandra Bullock movie is two weeks notice. And yes, I said it was called six weeks notice while claiming to be her number one fan. Two weeks is not enough. I feel like

six weeks, I think, I feel like is the legal amount. I'm sorry. Six weeks. I'm sorry. Two weeks is like me getting fired from being a secretary. You know what I mean? Like, but six weeks is like when you're a fucking lawyer like Sandra Bullock was your professional. Thank you. Right. She was. She was a lawyer. Don't even know that. Very good. I just felt like the movie took so long. It couldn't have been two weeks that she when she gave it. Do you really like that movie like legitimately? Oh, yeah. I'll watch it every time. I know you will. But like, is it like a you know, it's a bad movie watch? Nope. It's not a bad movie. Hugh Grant and Sandra Bullock are equal parts. He's the British version. They're the equal person of themselves. They're the

mere reflection of each other. They're like riffy, yet real. And they're kind of like mumbly, bumbly, but they're rather attractive. No, they're they're attracted to each other. Yeah. But they're playing brother and sister, which is the part I like. It's a real Game of Thrones situation. And yet there's a corporate element to it, which I also love. It just bums me out. Like I see movies like that. And I'm like, Oh, what if you had a fucking live your life by working in an office every fucking day? You know, part the part that I love in that movie. And there's details like this that always stick out to me. You can tell when either the person that wrote the movie or Sandra Bullock herself, there's a part where she orders Chinese food.

Like this isn't how it's just not how people like the idea is that she's going to totally binge on Chinese food, but it's way too much Chinese food. Like you already get a ton of Chinese food when you just get four or five things. Like we know, here's what you get. You get a poultry and you get maybe get a shrimp and then you get a noodle or a rice. And like maybe some like, like, egg rolls because you want a crunchy thing. Yes. That's the first thing that you need. But yeah, four, four things entree and maybe you're going to add the fifth. Yeah. In this thing, she sits on that phone and she just keeps ordering dishes. And it's like, now I believe that you've never eaten anything besides like an apple and a cup of yogurt because you've never allowed yourself to

have Chinese. That's a scene in it. Like here's how bum she is. I'm pregnant. It's a little bit. It's no, but it's just her thing. It's like to show that she's so down to normal girl and normal. She orders like enough Chinese food for seven Chinese families and they usually have four children. It's one of those things where it's like, and people tweet this all the time, like, I ordered Chinese and they brought and it was just for me and they brought eight utensils because that's how much I ordered. Like I'm such a pig. I'm cute, you know? And you're like, fucking shut up. Like there's that. There's this amazing Instagram that I'm obsessed with and I don't know exactly what it's called, but it's basically called you didn't eat that. And it's

these photos of models and like actresses that are like opening their mouth and putting a food thing near it and taking a photo of it. But like you didn't eat that. That's right. Everyone knows. It's always a carb. Like it's always like looking out burger. I'm going to dance with this bowl of spaghetti, but you've never actually had that in your mouth. I'm going to dance with this bowl of spaghetti. Oh my God. If you want to take a bath in one food product, what would it be? Because a bowl of spaghetti sounds great. Yeah. I think spaghetti and Parmesan cheese mixed together with olive oil and you just slip right into that. Dude, that sounds, what is wrong with you? That sounds so nice. That sounds so relaxing. After giving your six weeks notice,

yeah, you just get into that bath. Maybe order some Chinese door dash, some Chinese Postmates hit straight into the bathroom. We're not. This isn't a commercial, by the way. Oh, no, even slip into a commercial. Nope, not at all. Oh, we also need music before the commercials because the commercials are becoming so chatty. It's not fair. Tell we're not trying to do that. We're not. Like this isn't, you guys know that we don't know anything about like editing and fucking engineering and being sneaky and like talking about states. Clearly. Here's the other mistake I made. Okay. When we were talking with Guy about legal shit and we were talking about the murder of Harvey Milk, I had to pop, pipe up and say, and you, I think you said something like,

yeah, he was murdered by his coworker and another politician. And I said, that's right, Dan Brown. The person, the person that murdered Harvey Milk was Dan White. Dan Brown is the international bestselling author of the Da Vinci cover and he absolutely did not kill Harvey. Karen starting rumors is my favorite new corner. This is the gossip corner now. Did you know? But did, did Guy or Georgia, myself, not a correct you, not a beat. Nope. No one even heard it because here's the thing. We're allowed to say whatever the fuck we want. This is our podcast. If you want a factual podcast, go to what you've missed in facts history. We're cutting edge because like this whole thing of like, then there is no reality anymore. We've been doing that since

last year. This isn't happening. You know that. I also feel it's funny that you like, I get fucking everything wrong, but you're the one who has corrections corner. So clearly I'm just like, I don't care. I don't care. I'm here. Oh, if you're, if you're a bitch enough to fucking tell me what I got wrong, then that sucks. But I also think it's hilarious to get like, when we get shit wrong. I do too. There's people though, I accidentally stumbled on this email and I can't, I was trying to find, do you ever do that thing where you start an email and then you have to go check something else? This happens to me on my phone all the time. I start to write an email and then I have to go check and I'm like giving the person I'm writing it to someone else's email and I want to double

check to make sure I don't give them the wrong email. So I leave the email. So I hit save draft, but then I can't find it in my drafts holder. It's not there. Then I'm like, did I send that email? Oh my God. And then I'm like, and then what if I go back in, I started again and then resend another email. So scared. I fucking punched my microphone in the face. This is something that I actually went through recently. Do you do that? I mean, I have, I have done it once, once before where now I'm scared to death that it's that idea. Is it in drafts or did you just send it? It saves it itself. So you can just close it here. This is sometimes my phone doesn't update quick enough. So it's like it just updated, but it really didn't. Do you know what I do? Which

could be a mistake is I start to type in their email address in the email I'm writing and it comes up. Oh, like you're going to CC them. Like you're CC them and then don't forget to be like, oh yeah, that cut. Here's her email. And then you're like, you find it by CC them. And then you're like, oh shit. That'd be the best. You're, you're talking shit about a person that you're also giving their email to the person. Yeah, but you shouldn't hire her or anything, but she's a stupid. But anyway, get a hold of her anyway. Like she's, but like she's going to fuck everyone on that crew. Why was I even citing that example? Mistakes made called my life. What was it? There was a reason I was saying that, Stephen. What was the reason? Stephen Rewind. Six weeks. No,

that wasn't it. Stephen, you're too far back. Put the phone, put that microphone down. Put the phone down. Just on the phone. What if Stephen's not like a pay phone in the corner? Stephen, get off that phone. Jesus, microphones are going everywhere today. Stephen, can you get some better fucking props? Are these props? Well, we're about, I'm moving. And so this is about to get exciting. I'll be like, I'm kind of sad. This is our like setup. We need like, we need a video of this. I will be sad when it's like March and you have full AC. People in like in other parts of the country are like, March is cold. Nope. Nope. Not here in fucking global warming town, where it's maybe five always. We're going to have an episode live from the pool. I'm going to fucking

be living near. Nice. We're going to play tennis and record at the same time. Not me. No, we're going to have, I don't know how to play tennis. We're going to sit on hardwood floor. Yes. Everything about, I can't. So yeah, we'll let you know, but we need a photo of like this. If Vince comes home drunk, we'll have him take a photo of us right here. The day that I haven't bathed. You look great. It's, you're out of your GD mind. Um, what I, once you had one more corner. Oh, it was my, the thing that I, that happened over Christmas, my good story that I didn't tell you the whole thing of. So at my aunt Jo's house, um, now my family knows that I have a, a podcast about murder. Many are excited about it. Some don't like it and told me right to

my face, which is, which is fun. Um, but my lovely aunt Jo said, well, wait, did you know that Marty had a hand in the arrest of the night stalker? My cousin Martin, the oldest of all the cousins. Sorry. Who is the San Francisco, um, policeman fireman who was a cop in San Francisco for many years. He's now retired, uh, was, he had just started. He was like just on the force. He was basically a beat cop and there was a burglary in the marina. And so they went in and well, while they were looking at the place that had been burgled, they found a set of fingerprints. And so they called the forensic team, whatever it's called. He told me this story on the phone actually. Cause I, I was texting him of like, how could you never have told me this and he

was like, we never talk. You're the most, you're, you're, you're always in Los Angeles. Yeah. Stop using me for crime. And then I was like too bad. Tell me the story. I'm sorry. You've been boring the whole time. I've known you now. Suddenly you're interesting. No, this is, these are the, all my cousins are fun. Um, but he tells me, so they find a fingerprint on the window. So they call the guy, the team to come and get it. And then that fingerprint leads to the identification of Richard Ramirez. Dude. Because you, so you know how he started in LA, then he went up to San Francisco, then he went back down to LA. Okay. So when he was in San Francisco, that fingerprint basically helped identify him. Holy shit. And my cousin Marty was

one of the two cops that were there. They had that technology then where they could like send fingerprints to places. I guess so. I mean, it was like the late 90, it was the late 80s. Yeah. I think it was 89. Like fax, fax machines were in their prime. They faxed over the request. Yeah. Um, dude, that's so cool. It was super exciting to me. And I go, why didn't you ever tell me this? And he goes, no one's ever asked me about this or you need to write a book about it. Yeah. That's what I said. Um, and the interesting thing he said was that in that break in, uh, Richard Ramirez stole a couple of things from this, you know, the Marine is like super nice part of San Francisco. Um, there was a girl sleeping downstairs and he didn't know fucking

God. He didn't go downstairs. If he had gone downstairs, she would be dead. And also, was my favorite story. I know she, she never even knew he was there. So she was like the luckiest. And, um, also while he, while Richard Ramirez was in San Francisco, um, there was my cousin, uh, my, uh, my cousin Marty's daughter, Kathleen told me this because she said she's always been scared to pull her car into a garage. She has to walk out of it. Well, she's like, anytime I, there's a garage, I immediately like turn off the engine, but immediately close the door. Well, they have those garages that don't have doors where you have to pull into them and then walk back out the garage door. And those are very scary, very scary. So she's like super

paranoid of anything similar to that because when Richard Ramirez was in San Francisco, there was a woman who got out of her car and he was standing in the front of the garage thing. And he shot her and the bullet was deflected by her keys. Oh my God. And she survived last night, a key chain thing. Come on now. Don't, don't, no, you don't. Uh, Elvis just stopped touching me when I said that. Elvis was like, that's the stupidest thing you've ever said. How dare you. So anyway, that was, uh, that was Christmas night. I got to hear all these stories and it was, it made me so proud. Um, uh, to be a Kilgarov was exciting. I'm proud of, is, is his last name Kilgarov? Yeah, that's fucking awesome. Marty Kilgarov. Then my cousin, and then Mike is the sheriff, Sheriff

Kilgarov. Sheriff Kilgarov. Yeah, that's real. Oh my God. My brother was an usher at a movie theater when he was in high school and so he was Asher the usher. Asher the usher. See dreams come true. Oh, everything's fine. Everything's going to be okay in 2017. Well, my second cousin wrote Pink Cadillac. So there we go. The Bruce Springsteen song. Yeah. Was it? Yeah. Pink Cadillac. Yeah. He wrote that. That's awesome. Yeah. He's in the Bay Area too. It's very cool. Whatever twins. Um, well, thanks for tuning in. This is called family victories with Karen and Georgia. This is called we're not losers. We have family or successful. Someone's doing something.

My favorite murder.com has all the, well, this isn't the end of the show, but no, you know, we're about to get some heavy fucking shit. Right. I don't know. So yeah, so take this information with you. There's a website. Sure. We have a website. Is there anything? I feel like I just, I should do something where I write stuff down and I think of it throughout the week and then talk to you about it. Like make a list. Yep. Sure. Find it out. Before we get started with the murders, just happy 50th episode. Oh my God. Stephen. Is this it? Yeah. This is episode 50. Oh my God. Thank God for Stephen. You mentioned it earlier and I was like, and then just like passed by and I was like,

wait, really? No, I was like, that can't be right. Yeah. This is episode 50. You're hired. Holy shit. Isn't that great. And then the first episode, I think aired January 15th. Yeah. I found it. I found the very first Instagram account that our Instagram photo on my, on my Instagram that says like, Hey, Karen, I started a podcast. I'm going to post it on the 15th. That's crazy. It's been almost a full year. Holy shit. And 50 episodes. Yeah. 50 episodes. That means our live show at the Earth, Earth theme is going to be like, it's at the 17th. Someone needs to know that. It's the 20. My favorite murder.com. Yeah. Go ahead and visit that website. Oh my God. It's our 50th. Isn't it the 28th? There's a 24. No. It's Stephen. This is why we hired you.

This is why. Wow. Yeah. Congratulations. Thanks. Congratulations to you too. Thank you. I feel like it's not that hard to make 50 podcasts. I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. Fucking kidding me. That's great. I mean, it's great because it's doing well and it's not sad. Yep. God bless America. Who's going first? Karen can't. Well, we just, yeah. What? It's just good. It's cool. It's good. Okay. Yeah. Am I going first? Wait, what's the date of the Orpheum show? It's the 21st. None of those guesses were right. You know, Vince and I recently had to look at the inscription inside of his wedding ring to remember what day we got married on. When your anniversary and we were both wrong. That is the inscription is smart. That's a good idea. Yeah. Thank God

we did that because we were both like the six. It was like, I think it was the four and it was the fifth. That's awesome. Yeah. Stephen, part of your new job that we're hiring you for is that you need to remember who went first last time. Guy Brandon went first last year. Oh, that's right. No one went first. New year, new year, fresh start. All right. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner?

Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen, January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much. I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye.

Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Rock, paper, scissors. That's right. One, two, three, hit. Yeah. Okay. One, two, three, hit. Fuck. One, two, three, hit. I go first.

All right. First we got scissors and then I got paper and she got rock just guys for those for those watching at home. Yep. For those who have to know. All right. Well, this one is like, I didn't want to do this one because I feel like, well, everyone, like I do this a lot where it's like, well, I've been obsessed since I was a kid. So I'm like, everyone knows this thing, but people keep asking us to do it. And it's fucking fascinating. And there's information that one doesn't know about. So I'm like, I got into it and I got really into it. Okay, cool. So this is the, the Taman showed. Oh, yes. The summer set man. We have just talked about this, but we haven't gone into detail. Right. So there's some really interesting info about it. So when

I get through the beginning and have you solved it? I've solved it. Oh, great. Okay. Well, of course I, I in my head have solved it. You know exactly what. Yeah. So on the morning of December 1st, 1948, a man's body is found on Summerton Beach, which is in Australia. It's, it's near Adelaide, which is like the fucking has the best serial killers. He, the dead man is, is leaned up against a wall. He's on the beach, leaned up against a wall. He's wearing a suit and tie. He's well dressed. There's an unlit cigarette on resting on his collar as if he was just like about to smoke. And then it fell out of his mouth when he died. And you know, I know. So his feet are crossed. There's no signs of struggle or distress. And people walking by

had seen him and thought he was just drunk. He was like propped up that way. Um, he had not no identification on him. When he had on him was an unused rail ticket, or a bus ticket, a comb, gum, cigarettes, and a scrap of paper with the phrase Tamanshoot. It's, it's hard to find out exactly how to say this. Tamanshoot. Spell it. T-A-M-A-N-S-U-A-S-H-U-D. It's, it's, it's not, okay. It means finished in Persian. Okay. And the labels had been clipped from his clothing. So the autopsy doesn't find a cause of death, but notes that he was in his forties. He had a fit physique. And that they said that he had strong and high calf muscles as if he were a dancer. Just like me. All right. But you can

tell those things supposedly. So they take his railway ticket and they find his suitcase at the train station. And they know it's his because a spool of thread inside the case matches the thread that he had used to repair one of his pockets. Um, and in the suitcase is a shaving kit, clothes, and a coat with stitching that was specific to US tailoring. So they thought he was from the US. Also, he had Wrigley's Juicy Fruit Gum. Oh, that's American. What if this whole time, this had just been an ad for Wrigley's Juicy Fruit Gum. And they're like, you can't tell it apart anymore. Um, and only American men chewed it back then, or Australian men didn't. So, okay. So the paper, the Tom and Shude, it was torn out of a poetry book, a Persian poetry book that was

extremely rare. And local librarians, um, identified the phrase as the very last two words. It's the ruby yacht of Omar Kayem. It's a book of poems from the 12th century by a Persian poet. And the theme of this book is that one should live their life to the fullest and have no regrets when it ends. Amen. And the very last line, it's almost like saying the end was Tom and Shude, which is finished. And for some fucking reason, that was in his pocket. Okay. So a dude comes forward and says that he had actually found this, this book in the backseat of his car around the same time and around the same place. Like someone had tossed this book into the backseat of his car. And it had those two last words ripped out of it. And in the book that the guy had found were a bunch

of lines that were code. It seemed to be code. They didn't make any sense, but they're all capital letters and the letters all kind of seem like how English words would start. So the theory is that the Somerton man was poisoned. There was no trace of poison found in a system, but the pathologist who performed the autopsy said that his spleen had grown to three times its normal size and that his liver was damaged. And he said, quote, I am convinced the death could not have been natural. And he said the poison I suggested was a barbiturate or a soluble hypnotic, which is sleeping pills. And but no foreign substance was found in his body, but most of these barbiturates like kind of go away within a couple of days. So it seems like he was poisoned, but there was no

poison actually found in his body. And then code breakers have tried to solve the code that's in the actual book. And like, okay, so there's these these like a bunch of letters, and they think it stands for it's time to move south. It's time to move to South Australia, Moseley Street, which is like so stupid. And I think that they just made up like it sounds ridiculous. The letters are it and they came up with it that way to Moseley. You're just saying it seems like they're just reaching for something that it could mean. Yes. But however, however, however, there's also a phone number, an unlisted phone number in the book. And it belongs to a former Army nurse who lives on Moseley Street. Oh, it's not so stupid. Maybe. Well, maybe they

knew that afterwards and made that up because that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Okay, why? I don't know. It's just like, well, it's all because is it because it's like the secret code and then all it says is like a place. It's like not even that interesting. Yeah, or it's time to move to South Australia, Moseley Street. Why would anyone need to code that? Well, maybe that maybe it doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. Like maybe it's code in code or yeah, or it's like move means something is sinister. Okay, so the down down the street from where he dies is Moseley Street, where it's a five minute walk to where the person whose phone number where she lives, her name is Joe Thompson. And she lives on Moseley Street. She when the cops go there,

she's like, Oh, yes. But actually, I gave that exact book to Lieutenant Alfred box box all who she had served with. So she doesn't know who this person is. There's this fucking rare book of poems that she had given to someone she had served with and you don't just give a person a book of poems. No, no, no, they were probably right. I mean, that's not you're not like, oh, here's the ruby out. Yeah. See you later, pal. No, I gave everyone a copy of second hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy that I fall in love with. No, no, I don't poems. I mean, I've done it, but I don't poems are a big deal. Yeah. If someone gives you a book of poems, they're into you. And it's like, it's a rare book of beautiful poems. Yeah, she spent like 40 bucks at a bookstore

for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So she's like, I don't know who that is, but my book sounds familiar. I gave it to this dude. And so they, they're like, well, this dude must be the, the Somerset man. But then he turns up in 49 and he still has his copy of his book and it's intact. So it's not him, but he has a copy of the book. Like, you know him. Okay. So they could he, sorry, could he just as a cover have gotten a second copy? Or like, what if it was just like, they show a photo of it and it's like duct taped into the fucking last page of the book. He just like, just really shitty. Crayon. And it's like written in crayon. It is finished. No, it's fine. Yes, totally. Yes. What you're saying. So people started to speculate that

Lieutenant Boxall was working for the military intelligence at the time. And maybe the Somerton man was a Soviet spy and he was poisoned by Boxall or some other agent. So he went to visit this woman who had given this man a copy of the book and they were all spies. And maybe, you know, it's like, it's really interesting. Okay. But Boxall himself dismisses a quote as, it's quite a melodramatic thesis. Say that in Australian voice. I don't, I can't, I can't. They always sound like everything goes up at the end. They, no matter what they're saying, they sound like they're kind of excited. Even when they're, that's why I was listening, I told you I was listening to case file over the break when I drove to San Francisco.

And to listen to somebody very seriously talk about murder, but have their inclin, the intonation go up at the end is so enjoyable to me. Because it's like an exclamation mark at the end of every sentence. Yeah, it just kind of sounds like everything's all right, even though it's meta. Do you know what happened over the, I forgot to tell you this, at New Year's Eve, I was at Jodoros's house and there was an Australian girl there who was from Adelaide. And I was like, I did the thing of you guys have great murders. And she was, she wasn't like, yeah, here's one I remember. She was like, oh, I know. She was very, she was very sweet, but like Australia has the best murders. Tell me about that.

And one million of them. And one of them just got a, she didn't know about the fucking serial killer murder who just got solved. The, uh, that's, I just, case file guy just told me about that. Oh, shit. We forgot to talk about detective new detectives. And we'll talk about it at the end. That'll be our thing. It's not new detectives either. It's real detective. I know. I don't know. The truth is it's the Claremont killer. Yes. Yes. They just like, she didn't know about that. Right. Which I know is like asking someone in Texas if they know about the murder and okay. It's just, why don't you care? It's just like get involved. Get involved in the,

the intense serial killing that's happening in your community. Like murder is fun. Wait, hold on though. Is Claremont anywhere near Adelaide? I think so. Perth. It's near Perth, which has some fucking cool murders. But is Perth or Perth and Adelaide even in any way? Don't care. If we found out, if we found out that a fucking serial killer like we did recently had been caught finally in fucking Queen, or not Queens, like somewhere, you know, what's your place? What's, what's a faraway place? Uh, Well, it's gone to New York. There you go.

We would, we would know and be fucking interested because it's fucking interesting. It's true. I'm sorry, but like, don't come at me. I'm sorry, but don't come at me with, oh really? Well, also if you're at a party, and look, we've talked about this 80,000 times, what else is there to talk about? We were all bored. There's nothing to do. We were all like, I mean, look, it was awkward. She was the only one who didn't know anyone. So I was trying to be nice and like get to know her. Yes.

Like I was doing, and she was a sweet and I was like, oh cool. Like I was trying to fucking include her in the conversation. Know the difference between talking about murder and attempted murder. You're not coming at her. You're just trying to make small talk. They were not so close. I could have killed her if I wanted. And guess what? I didn't. And you should have. Yeah. This is why we came out at a party. Yeah. Okay. So what's going on, Stephen, over here?

Oh no, Perth is near Claremont. They're like right next to each other. Right. So Perth, but Adelaide is on like the other side. It's near Texas, where we still know about a fucking serial killer getting caught. Adelaide is right by Texas. Am I wrong? But it's like, it's Texas. They have their own Adelaide. Okay. All right. So in 2009, speaking of University of Adelaide, Professor Derek Abbott, who's like this dude who's like the dude who's obsessed with this now. Like nowadays, he's the guy.

Cool. You know what I mean? And he's a professor. That'll help. Yeah. And he's a professor at University of Adelaide. And he's like, I'm going to solve this. Yes. Which sometimes is like bad because you're like tunnel vision, but it's still interesting. Still get into it. So Derek Abbott thinks that the key to the code is in the actual book that they found. But the addition that was near on the Somerset man is so rare that they can't find it.

A copy of that to like know if it matches up. Like, you know, when they change chapters and they change wording and they change the translation later, like we can't find a book that that's old, old enough to like match up to this book, which is cool. Like it could be, I don't know, it could be in there, but it's not in the ones that we can buy, which I'm like, can you imagine going to fucking news bookstore and finding that book and like, right. And also like how put on an APB of like, does anybody have the rubia look of your grandma's library? Karen, please send. So you know, the rubia, you fucking know about this. What? The rubia. Like that was amazing that you, I didn't know what it was called.

It's all knowledge that doesn't help me in any way. Except for on your podcast. Oh, hi. I'm sorry. Except for on your career podcast. Where was I? Okay. So the original autopsy report, guess what? It's lost. They always get lost. The government won't assume the body. And Abbott's trying really hard to get them to assume the body for DNA testing. What's the problem? Well, here that they won't do it. Yeah. Because they think they don't think it'll catch a murderer. That's their thing is like, it's like, if there will be clues to murder, to a murderer, they'll assume it. But if it's just to figure out some mysterious clue, they won't do it. But okay. Which is like, it's got to be expensive

to zoom a body, right? Yes. And I understand that they don't want to disturb. It's that's, there's a whole thing, but like, you know, okay, I see that. Can I go on record and say disturb the shit out of my body if there's something mysterious clue that needs to be solved? Oh, I'll dig you up so fast. Claw me out. I'm going to have a note tape to my body. I'm not going to tell you what it is. I'm going to get you one of those plots where you can just, it's never fully buried. Like you can just keep bringing the body up on little elevator. Do you know about how they used to, there were so many, there were so many bodies that got buried that were still alive at a certain point that they started

burying people with bells? Yes. Right. Yes. So that if the bell, there was a bell in the coffin that went up to the surface. So there, if you were fucking buried alive, you would ding it, but then so many people would start decomposing with their finger in the bell because they put it in there. And the gases would move shit around. Ding the bell. How creepy would that be to like be the night fucking monitor and just be like ding, ding, ding, ding every, like which ones are ill, which ones not. Now this was around that time. This is like 1800s. 1700s. Yeah. We're like, everything was just so creepy back then. Yeah. Everything's creepy. It was like, it was always night. Yeah. It was always night. Women always had black lace nails over their faces. Plagues

everywhere. Dead children, piles of dead children. Oh my God. Like you expect your kids to die. You just knew it. You'd be like, Hey, let's call you Timmy. But who really knows? I'm going to farm you out to this rich couple to be their servant. Goodbye. Bye. Ultimately. Yeah. Okay. Good luck. Fuck. So dark. Everything sucks. But it's the best. But it sucks. You know what I mean? autopsy report is lost. Okay. All right. Cool. So so Abbott notices, like in the photos of the Somerset man, he notices a couple of things about him that are strange. One is that his upper ear, like this part right here that I'm pointing at that you can't see on the podcast, is is is strangely shaped and the formation is is shared by less than 2% of Caucasians. So the

upper lobe of the ear is larger than the lower lobe of the ear, which is rare. Okay. Less than 2%. Do you ever do that thing where, you know, ears are really the identify with people? Like when you, you know, and they always have that thing is like, is Nicholas Cage a time traveler? Here's a picture of him. Well, his ear doesn't stick out. Those ears don't match. And you can like immediately if you see and you think people be the same, check the ears for like a little like a kid corpse that like it went missing. And like there's a photo of the kid and there's a photo of his body. And they're like, well, his ear doesn't stick out. That's it. They look exactly the same. Yeah. Fuck, dude, that's cool. Although I know a guy in high school who got fucking

tape my ears back surgery. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's true. It's not sad. No, but that was not now. They don't do that now. Although they guess they could if they like kidnapped a kid and like fix his ears. Well, I mean, yeah, you'd have to. Yeah. There's so many possibilities in this life. I know. I love that. Okay. So he looks at the body and he is like, here are the ears. These are wrong. And also he had a condition in which the, so these certain teeth are missing in the front. So that your incisors, your pointy guys are right next to your two front teeth. Yeah. Instead of having a buffer. Yep. Right. So it's just like fang. And it's again, less than 2% of the population have this. And I think it's hereditary. So they don't prove anything.

Was this guy a chimpanzee? You might have. Well, okay. Yeah. Oh my God. Karen just solved it. He was a shaved chimpanzee. You know what? I just needed to think about it for a little while. There was a carnival in town. Karen's like, you fucking did it. Okay. They don't prove anything on their own. But so, but Derek Abbott examines photos of the, of the son of the woman whose phone number is in the book who claims to have nothing to do with him. Her fucking kid, Robin, has those same fucking abnormalities. Both your auntie. Both. Shit. And in addition to that, guess what he does for a fucking living? He's a ballerina. Yep. Are you kidding? I'm not fucking kidding. Okay. Blown mine. Am I wrong? What is she doing? Why won't she be honest?

Because something went wrong because maybe she was a spy. And so was he. And he came back around and was like, what's up? I'm here in town. Because he was in town for like, he came into town. Like they had bus tickets in the suitcase thing that showed that he was just fucking visiting. So he came into town for her. If you, if you believe these theories. Yes. So he came into town to confront her or to see her or to fucking threaten her or to fucking blackmail her or whatever. Or to make her a nice dinner. Yeah. And she was like, I don't, I don't want dinner. I'm going to put poison in your food. Whoa. Something. Oh, yeah. Because he was poisoned and could have been her. That's why she's lying. It doesn't come up ever in any, any webpage that you find.

But in my mind, yeah, I could have fucking been her. She's in the mix. She's in up in that mix. Okay. So, so his daughter, so her daughter, her son, Robin, who they think is the kid, passes away in 2009. And his daughter, Kate is on 60 minutes in 2013, saying that his grandma had fucking known this dude, the Somerton man, and that they both might have been spies. And she had no evidence of that. But she also said that she thought that this guy was her dad's father. Huh. Yeah. Like she, the granddaughter believes it. The best, like I love this part of the story. Maybe I should save it. It's like a really, okay. For what next? No, it's just cute. No, for the end, because it makes it less sad. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm going to save it. Okay. So,

so they're trying to get Australian government to exhume the body. They won't fucking do it. He looks British in appearance. He's this age. He's in good physical. I don't know. This is all like they're saying there's no reason to do it. Yeah. Maybe he wasn't murdered. The thing is that the kid was a fucking ballet dancer. And the original autopsy said he had great calves and looked like a fucking ballet dancer, which is like, and those two other fucking things. Come on, please. So, let's see. I didn't edit this as well as I should have. Okay. Okay. So they're, they're now trying to test the DNA of the daughter of this woman or mean the granddaughter of this woman, but they don't have the DNA of the Somerton man. So, but they think that they're

related. Okay. So the DNA was anything of him, do you know? They made a bust of his face and you can go online and see a really amazing, I think one amazing fucking autopsy face photo is like post postmortem like photo. And to me, I mean, and this is so stupid. I've always thought he looks like my grandfather, who was a Eastern European immigrant. Like I always thought he looks like that. So maybe he was a spy for fucking Germany in World War II, but who knows. So, oh, so in the bust they made of him, there's some hairs left, but I don't think they can get the DNA out of it. So that's why they're trying to exhume him, but they, they tested the DNA of the granddaughter. And it turns out that, that she might be related to like Thomas Jefferson, which if it is, if he

is related, he's from America. Oh, okay. Basically. So did we know that from the juicy fruit? Yeah, we thought that, but also it's interesting because if they find someone who is related and they have an uncle who disappeared, then we'll fucking know who it is. Oh, right. I mean, which is really cool. They believe she had an affair. They were, maybe they were spies, maybe they weren't, but the fucking best part of this whole story. So that's what, that's basically what it is. We don't know that the last news story I can get from this is from October of 2016. And it says they're testing the DNA and this, and the doctor who seems really fucking cool named Fitzpatrick. Her last name, it's a she, her name is Fitzpatrick, is going to do a whole thing about it. And she never did.

I can't find it. But so the granddaughter, Kate and Derek Abbott, who's trying to find the DNA and the story of this, the professor got married, had three babies, fell in love. What? How cute is that? What if he's just using her for DNA every night? She's like, I just, I have these dreams of my cheek being swabbed. What? No, I just like q-tips. I love plucking your hair, darling. I mean, who hasn't had a boyfriend who wants to pluck your hair? Am I wrong? Everybody's gone through that. Yeah. And there's always a bowl in the toilet that catches your pee. It's just a thing. It's standard. That's actually very sweet. So like he goes to, like he goes there to like fucking find out what's going on. I'm going to interview the granddaughter and she's like, here's this information.

I believe it too. And then they make out. And then they're just like in the stacks trying to find the whole files and stuff. How cute is that? Oh my God, it's precious. That's like the best. Like that's so, you'd read a book about that and you're like, come on. Shut up. Well, also because everything else about this case is so frustrating. First of all, are we sure we haven't done this before? Because I feel like all of that was so familiar. We've talked about it. We've talked about it. I know I listened to it on thinking sideways. Yes. For sure. That's why I didn't want to do it is it's, this thing happened like, okay, I want to say like when Jamie Lee was on the live episode, she did a story that I think is fascinating that I would never do because I feel like we need

to do stories that nobody knows about. I disagree. I know. I know. And I agree with that. And when Jamie said she was going to do it, the audience fucking cheered. And I was like, oh, we can actually do stories that people know about. We're just like going to find it. I know. I totally know. Totally. So when I found that out, I was like, but then me just saying this right now is like convincing you otherwise, basically. No, you're correct. I totally think you're correct. No, I mean, me saying it sounds familiar. No, I mean, I did Jean Benet. Like I can do this. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I just, what was the point? Oh yeah. So we've heard about it. You and I have heard about it. I said to Vince, have you ever heard about this case? And he was like, no. No. So also

it's so vague. It's like, so a dead guy is there and he's got these weird items on him. And he may be this and he may be that, but he might just be a dead guy that like there's you like a lot of stuff, a lot of like way things have been painted on like he could be a spy and it could be this and it could be that could be just a dead guy. They didn't find poison in his body. Right. He could have, he could have killed himself. Yeah. I mean, he explained himself out one night. Just sprained out. You need to spleen yourself. You better spleen yourself to me, right? Spleen yourself. No, it's one of those stories that I think everyone knows the first three paragraphs of from like Snopes or whatever or from fucking Reddit, but the like weird details of it and the

people like this guy, we're still trying to fucking figure it out who I think are going to be disappointed when they find out. Well, also, I think it's the fear. I think the interest is everyone has the fear. What if, for some reason, you died and no one could figure out who you were? That's so cool. What a sad, weird thing that would be. Oh, I think it's cool. Yeah. I think it to me like in it sounds like what it's true that he impregnated this woman. He came to confront her somehow. Who knows how he knew her, why she said she didn't know him. Those things are suspicious suspicious to me. Whatever happened was a bummer and he went and killed himself or drank himself to death or some fucking thing and died there. Yeah. And she

it's just weird that she wouldn't admit to knowing him. Maybe she didn't want scandal of being pregnant at a wedlock. I don't know. It's fascinating. So but like why were why she given poetry books to other people? Yeah, she's slotting it up. No. Oh my god. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. I will never slut shame. Like I'm proud of her for doing that. But this is all theory. It's all theory. Yeah. I mean, why were his tags cut out of his clothes? Why was there no, you know, letter he had started in his suitcase? It's another thing he and I have in common is often if I get a blouse and it says it has the letter L, I'll fucking cut that letter out. You don't want an L or a 12 sticking out while you get like insecure. You go to a nice wedding

and everyone's like, I love your dress. Where'd you get it? And you're like, not forever 21. Certainly not the gap out. Nope. That's for sure. I didn't get it there. So you cut it out. Yeah. So maybe his shit was like big and tall and he was like, I don't want anyone to want that. He was a big fat ballerina who is super insecure with a huge spleen and a smoking problem who just wanted to hang out by the beach. Oh, honey. The summer summer tin man. What's the actual name of it? The name of the whole case is the tommen chude. But his he's being called the what man summer tin man because that's the beach he was found on summer tin beach. And I feel like if I ever did a corrections corner, I'd have a lot of them for next fucking week. Hey, come on over to

the corner. We have a great time over here. Yeah, welcome. Who cares? All right. Do you want to hear mine? So lovely. Mine's weird this week. And this is the one I've been working on for so many weeks. And I never I can never figure out how to put it together. It's like such a long Ted Bunny involved thing. No, no, it's weird. Okay. It's the Baguan Sri Rajneesh and the Rajneesh Poram community that they set up in central Oregon in the early 80s. I know some of those words. All right. Let me walk you through it. Oh my God. I'm excited. And it's not there's not an actual murder. It's attempted murder. But the whole thing is so crazy. And it's a story. It's a new story. I remember standing in front of the TV watching and listening to my parents get super weirded out

because essentially what happened was this. So the Baguan Sri Rajneesh was born in 1931 as Chandra Mohan Jain, J-A-I-N. And he began his career as a philosophy professor in India. And in the 60s, he traveled throughout India as a public speaker. And he was a critic of socialism. He was a critic of Gandhi and institutionalized religions. He often spoke against Jesus calling him both a salesman and a madman. And he transitioned from professor to guru when he noticed there's a lot of money to be made off of unhappy, wealthy Westerners that would come to India searching for spiritual meaning in their lives. Amen. So he soon he built a thriving enterprise with his lectures and group therapies. He was pro materialism. What? Yeah. He was like change.

He was the change it up guru. So he was from somewhat I just see the meme of him like sitting on fire and it just changed it up with his big weird eyes. He was pro materialism. He was I said anti organized religion. And he was an advocate for a more open attitude toward human sexuality. Yeah. He was he was I mean, if he could only see Tumblr today, he would be so proud of the leaps and bounds to me. That's him saying, you have to fuck me. Well, that's exactly right. Well, he got he became known as the sex guru in the press, which his argument was I've written two books on human sexuality and 38 books on meditation. But you call me the sex guru because he's he was all about how Westerners were so puritanical and stuffy. He's kind of like never

was fucking watched Bob's Burgers and drank the last wine, which is like sometimes better than sex. I mean, I mean, it could be argued. But but he was doing things like he was getting his little groups together. And then suddenly the idea was maybe you're so you're so pent up about your sex that maybe people need to have sex in front of me so that we all stop being so pent up about sex. It's basically this this whole thing is the study in, you know, ultimate power corrupts up absolute power corrupts up. Absolutely. Get it wrong. It's the easiest saying to remember because it's the same words at the beginning and the end and I still got it wrong. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. So also he had millions of dollars in unpaid taxes. So he had to get the fuck out of

India. How did he have money to begin with because he was charging all these people to come and be in his classes and workshops and listen to his him giving these speeches, learn how to meditate, yoga hadn't been a thing yet. So they were learning about yoga was like the secret, you know, amazing practice. How cool would it be to like for like I have a couple thousand bucks, but to be millions in fucking debt, like you are living your best life. Hell's yes. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, because you're beyond. Yeah, you're not like you don't live in a fucking hobble. No, no, not at all. I want to owe millions. You will someday. Thank you. So what they did was they decided they're going to leave India and come to America. And so the plan is that he's

going to build a utopian city for himself and two thousand of his followers in south central Oregon. Yes, it makes perfect sense to me to. Well, so it's not south central Oregon is empty. They were basically three hours east of Salem, east and south of Salem. So they were in this kind of central valley that was super empty. It was just a bunch of ranches and a lot of the ranches was had fallen into disrepair. So they were they were it was almost like a desert ish situation because they had just like over grazed the fields and stuff like that was all very brown and kind of shitty. Oh yeah. So thanks guys. Right. So they move in and the plan was they're going to build housing compounds, warehouses and support buildings so that their business enterprises that were once

based in India could move to south central Oregon. And they initially applied for a permit to build housing for 90 people. But soon they they moved there and the numbers were in the hundreds immediately. And when he arrived the Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh, he came to America and he was on a three he was doing a three year silent. I don't know meditation or he wasn't talking. And so his voice was a woman named Ma Anand Sheila. Her real name was Sheila Patel. She came from a very wealthy family in India and she was kind of like his right hand man. And so she she made the deal to buy the Big Muddy Ranch in right outside of Antelope in Oregon. And she was soft spoken and charming. And she hosted a dance in the nearby town of Madras where Cowboys partied

until dawn. She curried favor buying 50 head of cattle from the Waskow County Commissioner, even though the commune was vegetarian. You know, she was like making deals kissing babies. And she basically closed the deal so that they could build their their farming commune. But what she didn't know was that Oregon had very strict state zoning laws that really limited how many people and buildings could be erected onto ranch land based on the amount. So as this development grew, they they kept having to apply for more building permits. And they kept going to the politicians and saying, oh, you know, we're just a we're just a farming commune, but we need more living quarters for the workers because this

is there's so much abused range land that we need more people to help us fix it. And the problem was that they were basically a bunch of rich, like college educated, well off, kind of like it was pre yuppie. It was early yuppie. It was like post hippie. Yeah, pre yuppie. Yeah, they were the people they were the people that eventually became yuppies that were like, oh, we don't have to live on the commune. We can just go to yoga classes. But at that time, but at that time, they were kind of like, they had the hangover from the 60s of like the whole hippie thing had fallen apart. And then the Vietnam War bummed everybody out. And that's why a lot of people went to India in the first place to be like, what the fuck is life? What is anybody

doing? Suddenly taxes were for them were fucking nothing. What do you mean? Like they had Reagan, so taxes were rich or nothing. And they were doing things like, yeah, they had they were rich, so they would sell their Porsche and send their money to the ranch and then go live there. And they didn't they just worked for free. So it was like, they were giving all their materialistic stuff. They were like, well, I'm going to help out. And that's going to make me feel better spiritually. And then they can kind of escape like the the structured world of taxes and having a job and all that stuff. They're going to put their whole life into this commune with the safety net of knowing that they could fucking leave it at any point if they wanted to. Yeah,

because their parents still live in a really nice house in Marina del Rey or whatever. They all had to wear red, pink, red or maroon clothing. And when they joined up, like this was the change, they would I can't I can't there's a word for it. Joining up is not it. But like they would go through like something and then initiation, it's like an initiation, the Bagua Shri Rajneesh would put a mandala around their neck, which is a beaded wooden necklace that would have a big picture of that of him on the on it. And so they were like, all the so all these people wearing red with these wooden bead necklaces suddenly start showing up in central Oregon. And if you've ever been to anywhere like this or even central California, it's like a little strip of Arkansas

right here on the West Coast. Like it's very farm. It's very Republican. It's very conservative. It's it's people who live far away from other people. They like things their way. And they don't want a bunch of fucking weirdo rich hippies in red clothing coming into their town 3040, 80 at a time. And that's exactly what was happening. So it's kind of awesome because and they were all wearing red. So and like with shit in their hair and like, and they weren't, it wasn't a hippie thing. Like they weren't like drugged out and like, hey, peace, love. They were kind of like trying to trying to take over a little bit. Did you see, did you watch the leftovers? I did. Like the first I'd say the first seven episodes of the

people in the white clothing that were like the smoking. Yeah. Yes. It sounds like that to me. Yeah. Just so creepy where they kind of like when you see there's tons of great documentaries about this whole thing and there's great footage, but it's there is a lot of that. Like there's a little of the leftover in like dancing in Golden Gate Park, like ecstatic dancing and group kind of hangouts and stuff. But it's so much more there's so much more of a business aspect. And you can tell that they're trying to monetize spirituality. Well, the difference between a 70s cult and an 80s cult is so probably so fucking different. Yeah. For sure. And this one had that thing of like, they just started showing up in droves and freaking locals out

badly and in their weird red clothing. And they were kind of like even the the one documentary I was watching, the guy who now is probably in his like late 60s, 70s gray hair, like clearly not in it anymore, but so they were just aggressive because they were just so quick to be like, well, you, you were racist or you were against our religion or you were anti, you know, you were xenophobic or whatever. It's like, yeah, maybe except for that. If you were starting a commune with 90 people, that's one thing. Yeah. But basically it ended, they ended up having 2000 followers infiltrated the town. They infiltrated a town, Antelope and Madras, where they're like, kind of their two closest towns. And so basically what happened is,

instead of it being a small commune, they turned into this big thing and they had to keep going to the city and applying for more permits and more permits and saying, we need it for this, we need, oh, sorry, we didn't realize and we just need it for this. And so the city had to start going, no, like this is crazy. This land is not zoned for you guys to start a city, essentially. And at first they were trying to be, they didn't want to come off as like hicks and like people who are like against outsiders. They didn't want to come off bad. Also, them coming there, they actually did the thing that they were saying. They were building, they built a dam, they brought the water table up. Like the whole, the entire valley that they

lived in became bright green. When you see these, it's kind of amazing, these helicopter shots of the area and it's like bright green and they have like, or they started organic farming. So it's like kind of a mass organic farming where somebody in this documentary was saying, once they had everything built up and there was like a main street and there was, there was a mall, they had a mall, they had restaurants. They would give tours to locals, like you can come and see what we're doing. We're not like trying to be hide anything that in the around central organ, they'd be like, the only good place to eat is it as Raj Nishpuram was the name of the town or you know, what eventually they tried to make into a town. People would go there to eat because

it was like really good organic food. It was kind of like the original, the original farm to table situation, but they were doing it with this. It was a culty version of it essentially because they still did, you know, and he also, the Bhagwan tree Raj Nish would just come out and sit there, but he wasn't talking. So he wasn't like preaching or saying anything to anybody. They would like, and sometimes he just wouldn't come out at all. Like so he, when he first got there, he would make appearances, but then after a while, he just wasn't doing it. And basically, there was just a bunch of people like manual labor farming and doing shit for free and dedicating their whole life to like building up this, what eventually was becoming a city.

That's what I was thinking is I bet the locals would be so much more stoked if you were bringing in jobs, but you're not, you're just hire, you know, everyone who just is a fucking cult member is doing it for you. The people it was good for were people that owned backhoes and like big like caterpillar earth movers. There was a couple people it was good for, but not on the whole. No, on the whole it was like, and the other problem was so they wanted these permits, they wanted to keep expanding and they started being told no. So they started infiltrating like the local government. So they would go in and like demand per day would demand to see permits or files or papers at the Wasco County courthouse. And there's two people that work

there because it's like a courthouse in the middle of nowhere in this county that does not have that many people and 40 of them would go down and be like, we demand to see it. So it started, it started off very aggressive. And of course, it was already like you're all wearing red and jumping around and now you're like, we want to see this, we want to do this. Then they have elections and they end up electing a bunch of the Rajnishis they're called onto onto the city council or onto the whatever county, whatever it would be a county people, county group. So that they suddenly now are the ones that are because they're trying to get their people in so that they get told yes. Because what they want to do, they really did want to build a city and they wanted to bring

more and more people there. And they're starting to make serious money. And the other reason they said that they had the tours is because they want to make sure parents who like those rich parents were talking about could come and see where their children were and what they were dedicating their life to that wasn't some secret cult that they could come and shop in the mall and buy a bunch of red clothes if they wanted to or eat their organic pizza or whatever and that everything was chill. And then they dance around aesthetically, there'd be discos. There was like a whole thing. And then they'd leave going, I guess it's fine and keep on giving them the money. And they were making a shit fucking ton of money. Now, the other thing was that the Bhagwan Sri Rajnish said when he

he went into silence and he put that woman Ma Anand Sheila who was also known as Sheila Silverman because she was from India, but she had married an American here and she was an American citizen, I guess. Ma Anand Sheila who everyone called Sheila, she was in charge. And then he had four other women beneath her and they ran the entire city. And his he the Bhagwan Sri Rajnish said he wanted a city run by women and he wanted like strong strong women to be in power and what would a city look like if women if it was a matriarchy basically. So everyone's kind of like into that idea because what harm could there be if it and they had these women that were the tour guides that when you went there to see the cult your child had just moved to and started

wearing all red clothes, it would be all these beautiful they call themselves the Twinkies and they would guide you around and be like, here's the look here's the mall and here's this and I'm really pretty and we're all great and we eat lettuce all the time and everything's good. That's our fucking tour, the Twinkie tour. So it's just all they're trying to make sure people have positive it's positive PR all the time. The problem is that the Jonestown cult and the Jonestown massacre had only happened three years before. So aside from locals being locals and not being that into a bunch of hippie weirdos coming into their town, everybody the press everybody was scared of anything like that happening in America. And it was close to San Francisco where

Jonestown started, right? Yeah, I mean, it was relatively not really like a plane flight away, okay, a long car right away. But still, but yes, closer than other places. And yes, that's where right. You could drive up the five and get there. But yes, I mean, it's that sensitivity of however many people died at Jonestown 800 or something like that. Hundreds that they're not going to just let a bunch of people, you know, getting super into this one religion and starting a city about it, because it's also the thing of the separation of church and state, right? And that idea of like, what's actually behind this? The other thing too, was that they were making so much money that the Baguantri Rajneesh, one of his favorite things was Rolls Royces. And so by 1984,

he had the largest private collection of Rolls Royces in America. He had 94. Holy thought. Who the fuck? And that was his pro materialism thing. It didn't seem like other people got to be very materialistic, though, because I don't think they were getting paid to like fucking run those backhoes and like run entire huge lettuce farms or whatever. You don't fucking buy 94 Rolls Royces with fucking lettuce farms. No, no, there's some serious cash getting stacked that he gets to spend. So his thing was he they were because they the relationship between the citizens of Central Oregon and the Rajnees was getting, you know, heated, let's say, he no longer was doing making

appearances. So what he would do was get into one of his many Rolls Royces and drive. And so he would just drive down the road and all the Rajnees, she's would line up in their weird clothes, and they would jump and stand and clap and sing and whatever. And he would drive by and wave to them and drive with no hands. He would do his hands and prayer hands and then bow to them as he was driving down the thing. And that was the really famous, like that's what I remember as like, you know, a 12 year old or whatever. Yo, yeah, you can watch all this on YouTube. It's pretty amazing. And they and they showed it on the news all the time because it was this thing that was like, Oh, this is an interesting starting up in up in Central Oregon. And then I was like, Hey,

have you seen this lately? Well, then after a while, their their side of things say that they tried to have a festival and the local authorities said, you can't have a festival unless you have a security force. And so they started walking around with Uzi's. So when the he would go to do his drive, there would be two dudes with like all the red clothes, but then with like berets to the side carrying Uzi's as they raise our fucking always bad. Berets are not a good sign. No, dude. So so they basically have their own security force. And it was serious enough where they got trained at the State Police Academy. They went off and got trained as a security force and came back. They call me feel better, though. I mean, yeah, they call themselves put a peace force

because you need Uzi's when you're fucking peace force. I mean, now the other thing is they were getting threatened a lot. Okay, of course, you know, a lot of letters, a lot of phone calls. And they owned a hotel in Portland that got bombed, the fire. So once the fire bombing started happening, there was more and more guns that and like the security force thing kind of came up more and more when dying that because I wonder if they did themselves to like be like to get sympathy or like get a reason to get those guns. Well, they actually would use the negative press when they when they would like something like that or anything where it showed that the locals or people of Oregon were like after them because there were protesters that

would be on the city that would be like get the hell out of town. Yeah, they would take that footage and send it to the other. I want to say ashrams, but I don't know if that's the right word. There are other hangouts around the country and around the world. Yeah, sex, sex, sex. I wonder if those they would send that footage so that and then go look how we're being attacked and they would send them money. But I wonder if those protesters were fucking ashram dudes. Oh, I like it. Like so they're just propaganda. Yeah, could be. I believe in nothing. But I think that people were super like get the fuck out of here. What are you guys doing? Yeah. So basically, we'll just cut to this part because there's a lot of stuff about permits that I was like

writing, writing, writing, and I'm like, I don't know if does anyone give a shit about this permit action? Did they get them? Yes or no? No? Well, basically, the answer was no. So then they started getting voting themselves onto boards. They basically infiltrated the politics in the community right. So that they could start making all the decisions for themselves and make the city as big as they wanted. So but here's where they went wrong. They there was a big important vote coming up. So they started busing in homeless people from all around the country to come and live at the Rajneeshpuram. Wow. In the city. They were saying that they were doing it for this their spiritual life and because they wanted them to. But these were all just homeless people

that they were finding on the streets. And these people would get there and they'd be given clothes and be given three hats and a cot and be like, Hey, you can go you can go work on the lettuce farm and have something to do. And there's it's sad. There's guys that like talk to the cameras and be like, Yeah, there's nothing for me out there. I might as well be here and actually have something to do. And like, I'm not I don't have to worry about getting stabbed on the street. Sure. So they ended up busing in 4000 homeless people. So that in the next Wasco County election, they basically take start to take over politics. And what ends up happening is the people that were in place, you know, the people that were already the county supervisors or whatever they

are, did this thing where when everybody showed up to vote that day, they said, if you are newly registered to vote, you we're putting a like a ban on your vote. And you and we were taking this to court. That's not how that works. Well, but you can do I guess there's some some circumstances they were like pulling out an old law or whatever like saying you can vote, but you have to first go to this trial and like be it a hearing to prove that you're here to vote that you're really a citizen of this sit of the city, because they knew exactly what they were doing. And so then they tried to turn it into this woman Sheila tried to be like, I'm voting for you. This is because a lot of these people were like Vietnam vet. Yeah, homeless people. I mean, they were the

people that like had been screwed over truly by society. And so conceptually, it was a really nice idea. But once that happened, and of course, nobody was going to go to the hearing, nobody was going to go sit there and beat talk to a judge about how they yes, they were here and they were really a citizen and blah, blah, blah. So so few of them went that and and like 95% of the local showed up to vote, you know, highest voting turnout ever for the actual locals that that none of the Rajneeshis won anything. And it went completely in favor of the locals. Yeah. Well, then they just dump all these homeless guys. Most of them went to Portland, but they just they just sent them out of town. Oh, my God. And dump them and just like close by and like no local places

of like, well, here you go. Didn't work by. Yeah. And that's when it all started to follow part where it was like, yeah, all of this, like you could say that you're doing this for the spiritual. That would be a beautiful thing if there's a place for people to go who are homeless. Yeah, we're on the streets and have nowhere to go. But this is clearly not a charity or anything. You're not going to let these people come here and stay. They were you're clearly using them. Yeah, that sucks. And yeah, once that vote didn't turn out the way they wanted it to, it all got exposed. The other thing that happened was that they went to check on the housing. The the local sheriff went to check on the housing for these people because there was kind of like a tent city. They didn't have enough like building

housing for them because there's so many. Yeah. But they did have tent like tent housing that they used during their festivals. And so the sheriff was going up there to make sure that there was like proper housing for that many people. And when they got up there, there was like a huge catapult or earth mover that was blocking the entire road. And the sheriff had to basically turn around and go back to town. So they were like actual caterpillar and I got so excited. James and the giant peach. Oh, but a caterpillar that huge though. Great. Go on. Sorry. That's upsetting. I know. Recky with that. It would be all like. Oh, hurry. So anyway, they basically are like, we got to call in higher ups. This is crazy. And something's really happening. So sorry, I have to get to my

page. So they have officials from around the county go and visit and be like, what the hell is going on? And while they were there, I'm trying to find the name. Can you I kept while you're looking? Yes. Can you imagine? So the governor of was the governor of San Francisco who went to Jonestown to check on everyone? Yeah, I don't think he was the governor. I mean, he was something. Yes, he was a big wig. So he shows up to check on his citizens who had moved to Jonestown. Yeah. And he ends up getting shot and killed by which triggered and started off the Jonestown massacre. Yes. Can you imagine? And that was three years before those fucking city officials being like, we're looking into this shit. How terrifying was that be? Yes. And a lot of them talk about it.

It's really a interesting thing worth watching because they were so scared. At first, they were scared to look like racists and to look like people that were just rejecting people. Yeah. But then after a while, they knew that they couldn't like they knew that this had turned into a thing that there was beyond just them like going in and arresting people that that was not possible. Yeah. And the sheriff who at the time, I mean, like now he's aged very well, because now he must be like in his late sixties and that the time he was like in his thirties news, like someone goes, well, are they like a person from the press goes, are they blocking the road? And he goes, well, I don't know what they're blocking it, but I mean, it's blocked. So I guess we'll just go like they're absolutely

not trying to be in conflict with these people. But at this point, it's like a welfare check. Yes, exactly. Like they're trying to say, yeah, we just want to make sure everything is kind of what it's what you're claiming it is. Yeah. Well, then Sheila shows up and she's like, she's like kind of in everybody's face. It's really interesting to when you see her, she gets interviewed a couple of times and she actually picks up her hand and points into the face of the interviewer or into the camera where it's like aggressive. What are you doing? Yeah, like if this is also chill and spiritual, but you can tell she's like, it turned into like, yeah, we're like you're fighting for your commune, but after a while, that's not really what's happened. This is a power

move. Yeah. And a power grab, like they're trying to take over, like they want, they want, they want the state for themselves or they want the area for themselves. Okay, so anyway, I can't find this guy's name. Basically, basically the fuck the, oh, I don't have the name, but it's three county commissioners. So they went to tour the ranch. And while they were there, they were given glasses of water. And when they get home, they become seriously ill. Oh, come on. And they had been poisoned with salmonella. Holy fuck. But they can't prove that it, like they can't prove it, like they get very ill and then they're just kind of out and so that they can't go to work. Then it took them a full year to like tie it all back and get all the proof. Then

then around central and southern Oregon, there are reported 751 cases of salmonella and people, 45 people were hospitalized. There were no fatalities, but all of these people got it like one after the other. And it turned out that Raj Nishis were going out to restaurants and sprinkling salmonella onto salad bars and putting it into salad dressing. How do you get salmonella to sprinkle? I don't know. In my mind, like you have to wring out a steak into a fucking, I mean, they had the setup that they had on these farms and these ranches. I mean, I don't, I could not tell you, but they figured it out. And I mean, like they could have had like labs or other things on these farms. I'm not sure. All they know is that they were, that these salad bars were poisoned.

And the idea was that they were going to keep voters from it. It was the idea. Jesus. And then the last thing that happened, which I think is kind of amazing is a Raj Nishi named Ma Anan Pooja. Heard that politician James Kamini was at St. Vincent Hospital. So she went there and the idea was that she was going to inject a deadly mixture into his intravenous tube that would stop his heart. Holy fuck. But when she arrived and went, got into his hospital room, she saw that he didn't have an intravenous hookup, but he was just laying in the bed. So she just panicked and turned around and left. But they act, the plan was they later found out when they raided the place and got all the like secret documents and everything that the plan was they were going

to kill him. Oh my God. Yeah. This was, so basically this was Sheila's plan to like take over Oregon. So where is she now? She fucking fled. She fled to West Germany. Oh dear. Oh, actually when they, when the cops finally got in, the, the ultimate plan was they were going to put poison into Oregon's water supply. Fuck. And people, they also had all of the rooms bugged at the ranch. And they were, they had like files on Rajneesh's in the ranch. So they, like they weren't only going to do harm to outsiders. They also were like keeping people in line and doing weird shit within the ranch. Like there was a lot of crazy shit going on. The Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh, she basically left. He came out and like agreed with the, like cooperated with the

authorities, told him everything, broke his three year silence. And then basically tried to get onto a plane and he tried to flee by Learjet. A plane came in and it was a big enough place where they could land a plane. And then they got off. There was the flight plan was they were going to refuel in Charlotte, North Carolina. And then they were going to go back, I guess to India, but in Charlotte, they landed and the cops arrested him. And they deported him because he was, he, the whole time he was on a visa that was like had expired long ago. Then they found her and she served three years of a sentence before she was deported off of US soil. And the Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh died in 1990. The camp was converted into a Christian camp,

but so it's legit now. Yeah. But then in 1996, it was destroyed by fire and all of the structures were destroyed. Damn it. That would be so cool to do a live episode from there. Oh my God. Can you imagine? We drive up to that lake, but also just to keep your eyes peeled because he eventually before he died, he changed his name to Osho, which is actually a Japanese honorific. And so if you see quotes on the internet from Osho, it's actually the Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh. Just to fuck up. Yeah. Just so you know, it's not some, some wise Japanese stage from long ago. Does he quote shit on the internet? What does he do? Yeah. You see quotes from Osho all the time. And it's that stuff of like, you know, you know, we are here for a short amount

of time. It's all like, it's like shit. I've said, I mean, it's just, it's just that stuff of like, you know, time, he's dead. But his like, because he changed his name, he doesn't have the mark of like the Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh is known as the cult leader, the kooky cult leader, who tried to poison everybody. Osho just sounds like some guy playing a flute underneath an old tree. But it's actually this guy. Fuck dude. I know. That's cool. Yeah. Fucking cults, man. Cult dude, my fave. They're so good. Anyway, that's mine. I love it. No one died. My apologies. No, they tried. They tried and they were bad at it. They tried hard. Also, the locals tried to. There was lots of like bad bumper stickers that were like gun sights with, you know, it was not

a good time in the early 80s in Central Oregon. I've never heard about that. That's so cool. It was crazy. Oh, we're supposed to talk about one thing that was good. Okay. Let's tell each other. I think yours is that you bought your niece fucking Doc Martens for Christmas. Don't do mine for me. So we can do a fight at this at the positive part. Okay. Well, then mine is that you bought your fucking niece Doc Martens because that's the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life. That was a pretty good one. Yeah. Let's not do it anymore. I mean, we have to think this hard about. We just take a second. Yeah. Well, let's give up. I don't know. Life is good.

There was something while we were talking that I thought of and then I'm like, don't sidebar it again. What? I can't remember. I wish I should have written it down. We should take notes during the week and we should take notes while we're talking. We should treat this like a fucking thing. I don't know though. Should we? It's working. It's working. There's so many things in my life that are good and I just can't remember one of them. I guess that I'm moving into a fucking real apartment. Yeah, that's fun. A grownup personally just got an apartment and I'm scared, but it's exciting. Yeah, that's very exciting. You know what? The thing this week that I'm happy about, my dish, I'm going to have a dishwasher. What's yours? Oh, fuck yeah.

It's fucking real detectives. Oh, yeah. That's it. Sorry. No, I was happy for you. There's a new, there's not, it's not a new show actually. It just, the first season is on Netflix, but the second season I think is on regular TV. If you DVR it and someone tweeted us and said, thanks so much for the recommendation of real detective. I love it and I'm obsessed with it. You're welcome. We never did. You're welcome. We didn't give that recommendation. You're welcome. But it's this, here's why I love it. It's like I survived, but it's first person from the guy who solved the crime. And it is, they're like, you love them. You're so in love with them. They're so like low-key, manly, but super haunted because there's these cases that you're like. Are the cases

really good? Oh my God. They're incredible. And are there like real photos, like crime scene photos? No, there's really good reenactments. Is that a thing? Really good reenactments? There it is, because they actually, there's actors you recognize that are in these reenactments. That's fun. And they do it in a way where you're just, it's kind of similar to, I don't know any, yeah, I think crime to remember is the only one that has really good reenactments. It's similar to that, but it's less artistic and more down to business of like, the guy tells you this is how it was for me. And then you see him do the thing. I'm into actors that I know and not ones that I'm like, oh God, you're struggling and you got paid $110 for this reenactment. Right. And then you had

to pretend to be raped. Yeah. And then you're just in that red bra laying. Yeah. Um, no, this is very cool. And also it's because it's from, I just, there's something about a homicide detective that's just like insanely, it's just pure. They're my Brad Pitt. I get it. I dig it. Well, it's just bold. It's like, what a hard job. Totally. What a horrible job. Totally. Yeah. Pretty cool. Good bless them. Good bless. Um, go to my favorite murder.com for things and stuff. And thanks for listening. Thanks everybody. We like you guys. Be sure to stay sexy and don't get murdered. Bye, bye, bye. Elvis, you want a cookie? Oh, did that work? It did. Jesus. Bye. Bye.