My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 53 - Live at The Orpheum

Episode Date: January 26, 2017

Wake up dads, it's My Favorite Murder live from The Orpheum theater in Los Angeles! On stage, Karen and Georgia tell the sordid tales of the LA Ripper and the Greystone Mansion Murders. Then, Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds from The Dollop stop by to tell their 'hometown' stories.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime, and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook, and listen to True Crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Oh, yeah. Come on. Hi.

Thank you. It's a little bit too loud. You got it. What did you say? It's a little too loud. It was a little bit too loud. It says bananas. I am so glad you guys didn't go to the marches and came here instead.

Thank you. Hey, it's pretty cool that we decided to do our live first huge live LA show the same day that the revolution started, am I right? Yeah. Hi. Hi. It started. One dad is like, wait, where the fuck am I?

Wake up, dad. It started. I fucking see you. Madonna said fuck on CNN. It started. You know, that's been the cue that we've all been waiting for this whole time. That's my Madonna. That's the Madonna I remember.

It's like the actual Madonna, like the Jesus's mommy Madonna was like fuck you. That's Karen and that's Georgia. Hi. And we're my favorite murder. That's stupid. Let's never do that again. We never introduce ourselves. I know.

We never say we're my favorite murder. Okay, I'm going to fall like there's a weird look. Let's go ahead and just take five minutes to make this our own space. Thank you guys so much. Whoa, whoa, whoa. All right. Here we go. Let's do it.

Okay. I guess. Tell me. I guess of all the signs I saw today, the one I saw that I love the best was the one with a picture of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Did you see that one? No. Where it was like, all you fives better listen when a 10 is talking. Oh my God.

That's right. Fuck dude. There's a new rating system and I couldn't be happier. Holy shit. There were a lot of good signs today. I think one of being like a guy was holding up a sign that was just like, I have nothing to say because I'm sick of hearing men talk. Thank you. Oh, come on.

So many tweets and responses. Call a response, but it's sweet. So many things. How you feeling, Karen? Let's get deep. Okay. Look, here's the truth. This is the dress I wore to the New York live show.

Some of you may recognize it. I didn't know. Yeah. I have to tell on myself. I pay attention to myself. I actually might have worn this something and I just don't remember. Well, let's stand up and let's take a look at it. No.

Let's do a walk. Let's both do a walk. No. It's fun. No. Just walk it out. No. Okay.

I will because look. Look. Okay. The only reason I'm doing this is because if my sister saw the shoes I was wearing with this dress, she would be so livid at me. She's always like, take the time. Buy a $250 shoe. No. You deserve it.

What is wrong with it? That's like onesie twosies. Okay. Pass each other. One, two, three, four. My sister's actually. Better. Five's better.

Listen when these tens are talking. And by that I mean the size of my shoe. That's right. I bought a size too big at Target because they didn't have nines. I mean sometimes you just got to, my feet are broken because when I was younger I was like, size six looks cuter than size seven. I know. That's downright ancient Chinese of you. Yeah.

Yeah. My actual real life sister is here. No. Don't. No. Yeah. Let's get a spotlight on her. Barbie at my head.

That's right. She made you who you are today. She did. A broken human. I love you. Here we go. You're the best kid I've ever met in my life. Well, I do have a present for you.

You can't keep sneaking presents at me. I certainly can. This one is the best because the last episode we talked about, I talked about going to see Golden Girls Live, which is the best show ever. Yes. That's right. Let's cheer for everything. Casitas, Del Campo, Drew Drogio, Jackie Beach, Sherry Vine, Sam Pancake.

Everyone after the party, after party, go there. Yeah. It'll be that after, after party, they're closed. We'll stand around on the party lawn. But, so I told Georgia that at the end of the last podcast, and then she told me about the mug they make, and it is a mug that has the gist of the Golden Girls Live on it. So it's all those guys dressed up like their characters in the Golden Girls. And on the other side of the mug, one side is that picture, and the other side, it says

thank you for being a cunt. And you did not. Well, here's the thing. So, Georgia was like, she told me about that mug, but I had already bought her the mug at that live show, but then had second thoughts because I was like, wait, is she going to think I'm passively, aggressively calling her a cunt? Like, oh, here, thanks for being a cunt. No, I don't think that deeply.

Okay, good. Then here, thanks for being a cunt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just smashed it. It's anarchy tonight, ladies and gentlemen. I am a cunt, and I'm proud of it.

Yeah, me too. It's fun. Oh, how do you feel about people who bring their babies to protests? I don't give a shit about anything. The world is about to blow up. You can fucking bring a dead body to a protest. Just show up. Show up.

Love it. Love it. Sorry, that was a strong reaction. I haven't had any protein in a couple hours. I'm about to go off. I'm doing this. Yeah, girl. It might have dust in it.

No, because I actually, in thinking I shouldn't give it to you, I ran it through the washing machine. I mean, the dishwasher. Oh, God. Really? That's so thoughtful. Oh, because you're going to keep it. I was going to keep it.

I was going to keep it. Great. Thank you. I was going to keep it. And then imagine my chills when you were like, they have this mug. And I was like, what? A fake what? Oh, that sounds so weird.

Well, thank you. That's so kind of you. You're welcome. Karen was like, let's bring signs out. And I was like, what kind of signs? And then we have this giant Elvis head that we were given at the Chicago thing. Jay Graves, what's up? And I thought we should say...

You be quiet. I thought I think I was like, well, what if we write, keep your hands off my cookies? Because that would be funny. But I didn't do it. Because I needed a nap. That's right. Yeah. You know, some people are dedicated and they craft and they glue and glitter.

And then some people got asleep. Some people tell a friend who's having a meetup before they go to the protest. Some people tell them that they're going to show up. They can't go to the protest because of anxiety. But they'll drive everyone to the train station. And then some people can't wake up before 7.30. And then don't do that. And then just promise I'll take them to lunch next week.

How many people were involved in this? None. Because there's... Were you all of them in that one? Uh-huh. Okay. So I'm going to lunch alone next week. Should we start?

Sure. It feels like we should. Don't you feel like listening to a couple... Don't you feel like listening to a couple stories of... Thank all of you for being a friend. Right. That's for sure. Who's traveled down the road and back again?

No. Who's first? Oh, oh. Is it me? Okay. Thank you. Here we go. Hey, I'm going to chill the fuck out.

Guys. I am... No. I mean, seriously. Refuse. What? Don't care. My ship's here.

I've got to go. Oh, well. Ahoy. Okay. So I decided because we're downtown and it's such a rich and story. Past that this city has and we're in it. We're sitting in it right now that I would do an old downtown old timey murder. Yes.

And... Right? Why not? So I decided to do the murder of the LA Ripper. Ever heard of that guy? No. They're all his grandchildren. They're like, how dare you speak of my grandpappy that way?

Okay. We got to tell me everything. Okay. This was a guy named Otto Wilson. He was born in Shelbyville, Indiana. Graduated from high school in 1930. He moved to Indianapolis. He served in the Navy in 1941.

And then he was given a medical discharge after his wife complained to the San Diego Naval authorities about his unnatural impulses. Oh. That's all it takes. He wants to touch my butt. Yeah. Don't touch your butt. You really want to touch your butt with that makes it feel so unnatural.

Like children. Am I wrong? Stop it. Don't. Well, it turns out that before she left him, ultimately, and I guess after she made that complaint, he had cut her butt with a razor. I was wrong. You was right.

No, it's kind of wrong. No, no, you're right. Her butt. Your razors and children are very similar. They both fucking, I don't know. So there was a quote in this article. I stole, I just, it was straight up like cut and paste plagiarism from two things that I then forgot to take the actual names of the people who wrote these articles.

And that's my favorite murder. So there's some, there's some very flowery language that is not my own. I'll find it and say it later with an apology and it'll be boring. But this was one of the sentences that I love that I couldn't paste onto here in the orphanage in the Navy in his last months of drifting, women had always subtly domineered over him. I'm sorry, but like fucking let it happen, bro. What's the problem with that? Get into dump being domineered over.

We know our shit. Chill the fuck out. I mean, it's kind of hot to be domineered over sometimes. He probably sucked at fucking. And she was in the ship was like, can you touch me in my like normal area? And he's like, nope, undo the razor, turn around. Fuck you, man. So it all kind of, he was on a bender.

His wife left him. Things were bad for several years. But he on November 15th, 1944, he had been on a two-day bender at that point. And at some point in that time, he had bought himself a butcher knife. So what did he just go into like Macy's or something kind of drunk? You know how you do with hot dogs at pinks, but with a butcher knife. You don't even need a license anymore to get a butcher knife. That's right.

Get him willy nilly. You can fucking register for one at a wedding. I mean, yeah, we both done that. That's right. So he was at a bar and he met a woman named Virginia Lee Griffin. It was on Main Street. Yes, dangerously close to where we are now, but quite a long time ago. She told him her name was Vergy.

And she's described as a big young woman with lipstick smeared too heavily on her lips. Fucking assholes. I mean, sounds familiar though. I'm into it. Hey, hi. She was married, but her husband was away and she liked a good time. Who does it? So they drank together and then they decided to go somewhere more private.

And he very gallantly held her arm as they crossed the street in the rain. It's like this. It's not like sweetly. All nails. Yeah. He has really weirdly long nails. Oh, what if it's the guy from the Guinness Book of World Records with the longest nails ever?

He's like, do you want to go somewhere more private? No. No. I don't know what we're talking about anymore. Here we go. So they went to the old Barclay Hotel, which at that time I think was relatively new. It wasn't called that. I hate to shit on someone else's writing that I'm stealing, but I think it was pretty new

back then. So apparently they say that she was overheard as saying when she walked in. And this is the way it's written. So I'm going to do a little voice for it. Please. If you don't mind. I always don't mind. Here's the quote.

Don't clap her then I won't want to do it. Don't you know me yet? So she looked up unsteadily as they walked into the hotel and she said, I got my horoscope told Wednesday is my lucky day. Oh, I mean, Virgy. I'm going to get moina today. Am I right? I mean, no, I think you're dead on.

And that's how you know that astrology isn't real because this doesn't prove it. I don't know what else you need. So they registered as Mr. and Mrs. Wilson of Steubenville, Indiana. And after they've been in the room, they had a couple drinks from a bottle of whiskey. He brought, she demanded more money from him. So the funny part at that point is they hadn't really mentioned that she had gotten money before that.

So she was a sex worker or a married lady that liked to have fun. Maybe that's the way they said it back then. Fair enough, dude. I mean, whatever. Get yours. So what he said to the cops was somehow I got sore. I socked her and then I cut her. I was going to dismember her body and get rid of it, but I found that I couldn't do it.

So I left. Oh, what a gentleman. What a fucking asshole. I got sore. I socked her. I mean, that's how you know it's not from now. So he... LOL.

So he punched her in the face so hard that he killed her. Right? No. What? Go. No, I was listening. Now that's a better story. No, no.

Okay. No. He was mad that she was basically being kind of greedy and like, nah, you know, and what he would do was strangle them and they would like pass out and then he would cut them and kill them. So when he left the hotel room, he gave the maid a dollar and he told her not to disturb his wife. And then later on, of course, they found the body and it was sprawled on the bed and she

had been slashed, her body had been slashed open from her throat to her vagina and her entrails were pulled out. It gets worse if you want to try to really orchestrate the reactions and kind of tighten it up and get it all together. There's no orchestra. Her breasts had been cut off and an arm and a leg, they were partly severed and the murder weapon, a razor sharp carving knife, lay near the body. Fuck.

Man, that guy was like halfway through and I was like, I can't fucking do it anymore. I fucking am tired. I'm tired. How many times have we said leave the eyes and the boobies alone? They won't listen. He leaves the hotel after that fucking carnage and he goes to the million-dollar theater to see Boris Karloff in The Walking Dead. I don't know, it's just fun to make some references.

I don't know why I'm pointing at everyone. You know, you love that movie in place and thing. Fucking sickos. So when the movie was done, he went to another bar and he went and met a woman named Lillian Johnson and he took her to the Joyce Hotel where they registered as Mr. and Mrs. O.S. Watson. Stop it. Same day.

So he realized it was the same situation where he gets into the room and then he told the cops like, I don't know, I just got mad, I just got mad and I hit her. But of course, she was found in the exact same condition that Vergy was found in. But apparently, while he beat her up and then he realized that he had left his knife at the other hotel, so he shaved and then, and she was unconscious on the floor. He shaves and then he takes the straight razor that he just used to shave and kills her and starts to cut her up. Then on the way out of this hotel, he stops by the desk clerk and says, my wife is sleeping.

Please don't disturb her. Code for, I just murdered my, this chick I just met. So witnesses from both hotels gave the cops similar descriptions. They took that information, they created a dragnet all around where we are right now. And one cop is in a bar and he sees a man matching Otto's description in a booth in deep conversation with a brunette in a tight red dress. So he was going to do it again. He had lit his cigarette with a match book and the match book said the Barclay Hotel

and his hands had blood on them and the cop was like, excuse me, I'd love to speak with you for a second. Give it, give it a week, like chill, he can't, he simply has no chill. So they bring him in, he immediately confesses to both killings, he admits his compulsion toward bloodlust and he told the police that his first wife left him because he would creep up on her when she was naked and slashed her buttocks with a razor. What the fucking fuck? That's not cool, like one time you're like, goodbye, what the fuck?

Well one time you're like, was that a mistake? Tell me now if it was a mistake. Any time you need stitches because of your fucking husband, it's time to get the fuck out of there. Unless. Unless. But here's the super gross part, he told the cops that his favorite pastime was kissing and licking the blood away while he apologized for his odd behavior.

There's so many other pastimes, like there's sailboarding and. You know how great like naps are? Yeah, naps, raccoons, anything, look up like raccoons in the encyclopedia, they wash their own food with their little hands, video, YouTube videos of Raven's talking, they can talk, they talk better than parents, yes, it's crazy and no one talks about it, no one knows that everyone here is like why are you not like it's true, it is so true, anyhow, look, I'm going to wrap it up by saying that Dr. Victor Park and the defense psychiatrist and a member of the Los Angeles lunacy commission, that's a thing, that's going to be a thing again

and we got to bring it back you guys, that's the next March. This man testified that that auto was in a semi automatic state and he had no feeling of automatic, way up top on that one, so fast, no, so terrible, thank you, he was in a dream like state, he didn't realize he was butchering a fellow human, I disagree and basically they said he was crazy and so then auto Steve Wilson, I didn't notice that before, auto Steve Wilson was executed in the gas chamber of San Quentin in prison in September of 1946, it says right here but his son auto Steve Ray Morris Jr. is still alive today, fuck, I noticed that Steven would often scrape up against my butt with sharp things, enough of that, okay,

that was awesome, thanks, I appreciate it, guys, I didn't write it, I just read it and interpreted it, thank you, okay, mine is also vintage because there's a lot of sad crimes today but not a lot of cool ones, man, just like a bunch of shitty shit, all right, so excuse me, that wasn't real, okay, do you want some diet coke? No, thank you, Greystone Mansion, am I wrong, also known as the Doheny murders, am I wrong? Doheny Mansion, am I wrong, never, three people were like yes, am I wrong? No, you're never wrong, so the Greystone Mansion is a 55 room mansion in Beverly Hills, it's built in 1928, at the time it cost over $4 million to build and was the most expensive

home in California, and it was also known as the Doheny Mansion because it was a gift from the oil tycoon Edward Doheny to his fucking shitty son Ned, why are you attacking Ned? All right, Ned might not be shitty, but okay, you know what I'm saying, if he's a Doheny, let's not be rude to Ned, he'll end us, here we go, oh, this is about Ned, oh shit, I spoke too soon, I'm sorry, you don't know, so Edward Doheny, the older dude, comes from a poor Irish immigrant background, do not point at me, remember that, it was only two generations ago, you did that, I did it, okay, so in Edward's late, in the late 30s, which gives me hope

with my life, he was super poor, and then he becomes a California oil tycoon, he drills ‑‑ you can do it, I can fucking do that, there's oil everywhere, you can find it, get in there, so you know on last year when you were on the way to the airport and there were those old dinosaurs, oil things, he's the guy who fucking found those, oh, the confidential ones, yes, yes, yes, yes, and the tar pits, that's how him did. He made tar pits, made the tar pits, he sunk those dinosaur bones in there, so he becomes the first successful oil well guy, and like, there will be blood, that's basically him, and he makes a fucking fortune, and then he eventually owns one of the largest oil companies

in the world, and this is the 1920s, where everything was cool, so his son Ned is living off the money and pretending to be a business man, and then in 1913, I think he's in his late teens, early 20s, he meets a man named Hugh Plunkett, and don't fucking lie, and then at the time Hugh is working at a gas station near the house, owned by like friends, and Hugh and Ned become good friends, and Hugh starts working for the Doheny family and eventually becomes Ned's personal secretary, and he travels with him on business and they're like fucking tight as shit, okay, no, I get it, Ned rolled up to the gas station one day, he's like, see that gas, my dad made that, washed my windows, according to a family friend,

their relationship was more than that of friends, and another said that they were like brothers, they made out all the time, they're enough, so in November 1921, the two of them check into a suite in this fucking place, and then Ned takes out $100,000, which is about $10 million in today's money, which I fucking love hearing, oh, everyone gasped, people love money, $10 million, like that's like, we could like retire for five years off of that, okay, so Ned takes it out of his bank account, and then he and Hugh go to DC, they meet with this dude, who's the secretary of the interior of the Harding administration, and then there's Albert Fall, and the guy, so this dude, Albert Fall, is a friend of the older dude Doheny,

and they hand him the money, and in return, Fall gives them a promissory note, and then I'm fucking, I slept through history, literally, and fucking was on drugs, okay, so basically there's some kind of an oily business deal going down, you guys remember the words teapot dome scandal, this is it, I don't fucking know, okay, something happens, like Fall gives Doheny a bunch of shit and a bunch of oil stuff and exchange for the $100, so it's like super shady and shit, and then, so Albert Fall is eventually charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States as part of the teapot dome scandal, that's not a problem anymore apparently, give everyone money and fuck yourself, the hearing, so Ned, the son

has to testify against his pops, and he says that, you know, he's like, no, we didn't do anything wrong, and Ned and Hugh, his fucking boyfriend, they're implicated, and they, okay, so at the end, the dad gets acquitted kind of, and so as Ned's loyalty, he builds him the Greystone Manor, okay, oh shit, all right, I forgot about that part, we're back in at the Greystone Manor, remember that biggest house you've ever heard of in your life, can I just tell you really quick, I went and saw a play done in the Greystone Manor, yes, where you walk around, the play is happening, you went to the Greystone Manor, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they do a thing, I think maybe it's for Christmas or something, but you walk

around like you're at this party, and then the actors are around you, I hate shit like that so much, I think it's so embarrassing to be that close to like an actor, hello, my lady, oh, I have a Vest on, don't look at me, but anyway, yeah, but the house itself was lovely, that's amazing, no, that's fucking awesome, okay, all right, okay, then Karen Kilger was there, yes, finally, okay, so Hugh starts going fucking crazy at this point because he's like, I'm just like a poor dude, and I have to fucking testify against maybe my lover and his pops, and blah, blah, blah, okay, so on February 16th, 1929, Hugh, this is the gas station dude, he lets himself into the main house because he had a key and he

used to hang out in this room, like it was his bedroom sometimes, I'm in a belch really soon, do it, okay, so Ned and Hugh, they meet in this guest bedroom, and Hugh's like, fuck out apparently, and then around 11 o'clock, Lucy, the wife of Ned, who's like a fucking staunch Catholic, hears a shot while she's in the living room reading magazines, and who did she call to be like, I heard a shot, the police, nope, the doctor, the family doctor, who are you going to say, Batman, no, no, no, I just say rich people never call the cops, no, call the fucking doctor, call your lawyer, you can, you call your, anyone, and there's so many people, the thing is, help me, and uncle, I'm not going to name people, so he

arrived, okay, so the doctor says to the cops that he hears Hugh yelling at them from this like place, not to come into the room, and there's a second shot, and when the doctor goes in, he finds both men, and the whole, their whole story is that Ned had been shot by Hugh, and he would shot himself like a murder suicide, and then I wrote suspicious shit, I really agree, it's right there, so okay, here's some suspicious shit, Ned's gun, the fucking dohini dude's gun, was the murder weapon, super weird, right, and before the police were called, the bodies had been moved from their original position, and the body, and the police weren't called until 2 a.m., so the first shot was at 11 p.m., and the fucking

cops were called at 2 a.m., so they were moving stuff around, they were, well yeah, the fucking bodies were moved, and the detective, and so what it looked like is that Ned was shot by dohini in the head, and then dohini, who had like a lit cigarette in his hand, had like landed on the gun after killing himself, suspicious shit, right, but there were powder burns on the hole in dohini's head, which means the gun had been less than three inches away from his head and he killed himself, which usually points to suicide, and there was no powder burns on Hugh, which every fucking person here has ever watched in a discovery ID thing knows that you check for powder burns, and that's who shoots the fucking gun.

But within hours, the DA's office holds a press conference and like, no, this is a murder suicide, and this poor person killed this rich person and like closed the fucking case, no autopsies, nothing, which is like, you're in charge of the media at that point. Okay, so here are some theories. One was that it was a murder suicide, but that Ned and Hugh had been together, and that Ned and Hugh had been called to testify on the bribery trials, but that Ned had been assured immunity, and Hugh had not, and he felt betrayed, which is true, Ned was assured immunity against his father, Hugh was not, they were throwing him under the bus.

Yeah, they were going to make the poor guy take the fall, fuck this dude, for Albert fall, which is like, oh yeah. The other was that Ned and Hugh were lovers, okay, and that they had a fight, and that Lucy caught them, the wife of Ned caught them and killed them herself, which is why she didn't call the cops immediately. And what supports either of the lover, that they were lover stories and that they killed each other in a lover's quarrel is that they were both buried in Forest Lawn, which is a secular cemetery, but the Doheny family were devout Catholics, and you don't, you

can't bury someone in a Catholic cemetery if they killed themselves. Oh yeah, that's right, because suicide is a, what do you call it, number one sin? Cardinal, venial, Catholicness, who went there? Okay, so, okay, or that they were lovers and everyone knew it, and so they were buried like, within a few feet of each other, in this secular fucking place, all right, okay, and so they were buried together in close by, and so no one really knows why they killed each other, or who killed who and why, but it seems very suspicious. And also, because of the sympathy that they had for Doheny, having his son being killed,

his investigation was basically called off, which makes everyone think that maybe the senior Doheny fucking killed both of them to get them to shut the fuck up. Because he was getting off? Yeah. Because he got off because of his kid getting murdered. So basically anybody in that family could have murdered them, essentially. This was fun, I bet, that their house. Okay, so now it's a city park now, and so everyone lets me there tomorrow.

You can go there now and just have tours and just chilling of a fucking picnic. It's pretty amazing. It's an amazing house. It's pretty cool. It's beautiful, but it's also supposed to be haunted. I hope so. Yeah. If all that happened.

Dude. Yeah. All right, nice one. Hey, look, those are our murders. Thanks. Is that it? Are we done? Well, we now have some special guests to bring out, because as you know, yes, it's very exciting.

This is the portion of our show that we normally do hometown murders, and so we thought it would be fun to have our two friends, our brother podcast, you might want to say, from the dollop Dave Anthony and Gary Reynolds. Yay. Yay. Go over there, you get over there. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Did you care where you were going? I know. I know. Why don't you surround us? Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah, you get that, and you get that. Really take the stage. Okay, thank you. So Ned and who's the other guy? What? Oh, Hugh. Hugh. They were totally fucking, because someone came in and saw him fucking, and then-

They weren't fucking. Yeah. And then they put their clothes on and moved them around. You forgot about that. They moved them around. They put their clothes on. The after-murder dress. Yeah.

Why else would you be moving them around? No, for sure. Yeah. All of it. I didn't want to say that, because I'm not a fucking- Yeah. They were totally getting it on. Okay, you've been clear.

We all have theories, Dave. Yeah. We heard you guys have hometown murders. I don't have a hometown murder, so last time I was on, I did my hometown murder. So there's a murderer that everybody who listens to the dollop has always been like, you have to do this one, and I'm like, we don't do murders. In a couple ways. What do you mean?

We don't murder people, and we don't cover them. Oh, we've actually started murdering people. That's his. We'll bring you in on it. Thank you. You guys need to have a team meeting. We should have a meeting. It's been too long, turns out.

We're not communicating. I've been killing our fans. Okay, well, we should catch up more often, I think. You know how you keep losing one fan a week? Yeah. Looking for a better cooking routine? With meal planning, shopping, and prepping handled, Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable, so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year.

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Whitney's voice defined a generation, and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a diva will tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people let her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Here's the murder. Okay, so I'm going to tell you guys. So my uncle.

Oh, wait, Dave, sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah, go ahead. I just remembered something. That I used to slash your buttocks when we dated. Oh, that's the scars. How dare you speak of our secrets this way? At the Orpheum.

Yeah. Know that you guys did that we did the Tylenol murders. Oh, my God. And then we did the Bhagwan Shwee Rajneesh, which I didn't know that you guys had just. Oh, yeah. They did it at the same time. Don't fucking write our coattails, man. No.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I feel we put out the Tylenol like within hours of each other, right? Yes. So but you guys did it from the murder perspective and I did. We did it from the like fun perspective. Yeah. I mean, the commercial tie-in. It was a brand new episode for us.

Oh, you guys got sponsored. That's cool. A lot of free Tylenol out of that one. Yeah. They're big players too. Lucky. Oh, yeah. We got a lot of swag.

They're very popular companies. What kind of swag does Tylenol put in? Oh, my God. I don't know. They give you free Tylenol. Uh-huh. You know, it's just never ends. The gel, the gel.

It never ends. The gel caps. Oh, yeah. Gel caps and the other ones, the white ones. The hard, hard ones. The dry ones. The dry ones. Thank you, Karen.

The dry ones. You're welcome. Shirts. Yeah. Tylenol, it says. Yeah. Question mark? Yeah.

With four Ys and a question mark. Just, oh, they like it. Just like the expression. Tylenol. That's what they said in the 40s. But we admitted in a different perspective that the fucking guy kept admitting to it and he didn't do it. Like the guy who they thought did it.

Yeah. Crazy guy, yeah. Yeah. It's some guy out there who's still out there. That guy's still out there. No, it's fucking. He's like staring at excedrin. It's the unabomber, dude.

Like he's ready to go. That guy. It's the fucking unabomber. You think it's a unabomber? 100 fucking percent, yes. It could totally be the unabomber. It's fucking the unabomber. I promise you.

Koresh, right? Nope. Not Koresh. Koresh. Koresh is dead. 100 percent. 100 percent. That's why I love you.

The fucking. The unabombers had Bundy. None of you are here for fucking facts. Don't fucking come at me. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm embarrassed. Sorry, I interrupted you anyway. Koresh, Koresh didn't make it.

He burned up in a house with some people. Yes. He's an angel. I believe in him. Kazinsky. Kazinsky. Same thing. Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know anything. I don't know anything. The same thing. The same thing. People also think he's the San Francisco mock and hello place. Starhawk. That is a mad person.

Right, it is Ted Cruz. We will solve it tonight. No. We are not going to lie down. Sorry, Dave tell yours. Yup. Ken McIlroy. No, that's not right. No, it is. It's McIlroy. I didn't even notice that when I was writing it. M-C-E-L-R-O-Y. McIlroy, right?

We're all on drugs. This fucking name is killing it. Should have seen that coming. He's born in 1934. He was the 15th of 16 children. What? Is he a rabbit? Yeah. The fuck.

Listen. It was just like how Caviar's birthed. Son, be free, children. All of you, now. Oh my God, that is just like, the baby comes out and he's like, let's do it again. Do you even know your parents if you're the 15th or 16th? No, your eldest brother's like, I'm called dad. That's a broken pussy if I've ever fucking...

It's from a show. It's from a show. It's not me being gross. Total BP. BP. They lived in a four-bedroom house, so let's do some math. Oh no. Yeah, that's not great. 32 people to a room? That's exactly right, Karen. Your math is exactly right.

He never learned to read well. He never really had a great job. He quit school in the fifth grade. I wonder why he never got a good job. I don't know. Any facts about that? I don't know. They lived outside of Skidmore, Missouri, a town of about 450 people. Oh.

It has two paved streets. But they were all of them. It's our town. Two paved streets, no traffic lights, one small mom and pop store, a gas station cafe. That's it. It's the whole deal. So, he started stealing animals. What? Sure.

He started stealing animals. Sure. Before he was 18 years old, he bought an old sedan, and he took the back seat out, and he put plywood down. Oh. And then he'd drive around at night and steal pigs. Oh, all right. Okay.

Well, he had a plan. It's Missouri. You know, it's classic Missouri. For some reason, it's like, when you picture dogs or cats, it's like, oh, God. And it's like, he stole pigs. And it's like, this is funny. I like this story. Well, he would sell them.

He would steal them and sell them to someone who wanted to buy pigs. That's better than killing pigs. Oh, yeah. No, he wasn't taking them out and killing them. He was like, you want to buy them? Yeah, I mean, people are eating these pigs. At the end, the story's not great for the pigs. Wait, they don't just want to feed them peppermints and put them on YouTube?

Have you seen this? I'm not sure you've ever been to a farm. But that's a great farm, if they ever have with that one. How are my pigs doing? They're all very sick from the peppermint. Actually, across the board. They're sad. Their eyes are burning.

I'll be honest, they're not, two are dead. They're not doing well. They should not have adjusted all that. What are you feeding them? Peppermint. That's why my bacon sucks. Oh, that's great. Or is great.

So, he married for the first time at the age of 18. She was 16. They moved briefly to Denver. But he couldn't keep a job there. So, he and his wife moved back. He started hanging out with, quote, Coon-hunting buddies. Raccoons.

You guys earlier were talking about raccoons. Yeah. You were making this sound cute. They are horrible monsters. No, that's not fair. They come into my backyard and do this. That's not fair. So, I don't know what raccoon you're...

They tell stories about you. Oh, this asshole. He's like, eh! You know? They do that about you. Actually, can I tell a true story? Yeah. One time, I heard a noise at my back door in the middle of the night.

I was scared shitless, but I had to go see. It was before I got a dog. And to go see by myself. So, it was like a weird tapping sound. And so, I go over and I turn on the porch light at the back. And there was a raccoon that was trying to get through the built-in cat door. Fuck that. Yeah.

Like with his little raccoon hands. And when I flicked on the light, he kind of like sat up and looked at me. And then we were just staring at each other. That's what they do. So, I kicked the door, right? Like that. He's leaned over like this. You know, kind of trying to tap on the thing.

And then I kicked the door, thinking he's going to run away. And then said he goes... And just kind of like stood up and paused at me. Did he do this? And that's her dog, Frank, now. He's fucking... Okay, so I'm in my back... It's not worth the act out at all, sorry.

I'm in my backyard. I'm going to do an act out. I'm in my backyard. Do it, do it. And I hear all this noise. And I'm like, well, there's raccoons getting in the dog or cat's food, one or the other. And so, I go out there and I grab a bat. Because I know raccoons are terrifying.

And not like her, where I'm like, hi, raccoon. I have a bat. To be fair. And I come out and there's a raccoon and it comes out. And it's like this in front of me. And I'm like, what are you doing? I tap the bat on the ground. It's like...

What? His stance got wider. He's like, what are you doing? He had a bat too. And I'm like... And I'm like, you're supposed to be scared. And he's like, I'm not scared. You're doing his voice or he's...

And so I'm doing that. I'm like, get out of here, you fucker. And then he's standing there. And he's making himself big. And then his four buddies go trucking by. Oh, shit. Like he was a fucking... He was like the distraction guy.

So as long as he can run on. How terrifying. He's like when there's the midnight bicycle riders and one of them stops in the middle of the fucking intersection. And they're like, fuck you. Get the fuck, get the fuck, get the fuck. Go, go, go. Fuck you. Fuckin' out, you fucking thick-skier motherfuckers.

Midnight ride. Okay, so we... Raccoons, am I right? Misty railed picture. So he goes out hunting with his buddies and they shoot raccoons. And I assume they eat them. What else would you do with them? Delightful raccoon.

But mostly what he did at night was steal cattle, horses and hogs. He now had a horse trailer that he used to move stolen animals. And in this part of Missouri they didn't really brand animals, so it was super easy for him to steal. He was also very skilled at harassing witnesses. Oh. He had a attorney who he would retain for $5,000 per felony who would keep him out of jail. And this was not a problem because he had a lot of money. He was always living large.

He had a big roll of cash in his truck. Pigs? Was it pig money? He's stealing pigs and cattle and horses and selling them to other people. So he had that fuck you pig money. Fuck you pig money, yeah. Like the 450 people in his fucking town were like, wait a minute. Nobody was like, wait a minute.

How? How? And also someone was like, I'm going to marry him. What was wrong with him? He's got it all. A van with pigs. Swoon. Swoon.

Swoon. One time a farmer caught him stealing two horses. Tortoises. Two tortoises. What you do with my tortoises, boy? They ran into my car. I haven't milked them yet. Ran.

Well, we can move. So the farmer reported it to the cops and said this guy stole my horses and filed charges. And McElroy visited the farmer the next day with a rifle and hit him in the face with the butt of the gun and then the farmer dropped the charges. He was like, that's fair. I see your point. I'm on your side now. When McElroy was 20, he had a child with a woman who was not his wife.

At the same time, he was dating a 15-year-old girl. What the fuck? This guy gets so many fucking chicks. Yeah, he's a very hot prospect in town. Well, he's got the pig car. Yeah, he smells like pig. This girl's name is Sharon, and they had a complicated, messy relationship. And one day they were arguing and he shot her in the neck with a shotgun.

Because I don't know if you've ever dated a 15-year-old. What's that? They sass you. They'll sass. We're not okay domestic violence. This is not okay. I don't fucking marry pig stealers. No, it's a super big warning sign if someone's a pig stealer.

For sure. Go on. She did not die, but she did have scars because that'll happen. She was okay? Yeah, she lived after getting shot in the neck with a shotgun. Well, she was hella mad. She had a fear of guns after it, some irrational fear. And she felt like dating someone else after that.

Nope, she forgave him. Good, good, good. And he divorced his first wife and married her. Listen, if a girl can take a fucking bullet, she can say, hey. They had two kids. Oh, for fuck's sake. Wow. Yeah, no.

That's quite a turnaround. You know what? Love is fucking awesome. Stupid. Oh, crazy. Then around 1961, McElroy started dating a 13-year-old girl named South. What's going on? He's just...

You've slowly inched it back creepier and creepier. It started and it wasn't okay. Yeah. And then now we're... He might just be walking down the hallway at a junior high. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's just lazy.

Yeah. You. You. They'll meet you up by the jungle gym. So he's 27 at this point. Yeah, 27-year-olds are fucking disgusting. I know that. Also, at this point, he's living with his parents.

Oh, my God. Look at this guy. Out there. Dream date. Yeah. Wait a minute. You live with your parents? Smell like pigs and shoot girls?

You're still available? Oh, you're not. I'm still in. I'm still in. Yeah, so they have a farmhouse. So he moved Sally in with his parents and his wife Sharon. So it's his girlfriend and his wife and his parents and their kids. What?

He liked sex. He was the 15th of 16. So Sally... Very common for that birth order. Oh, you know how the 15th is. I'm the 15th. I do this crazy shit. I'm acting out.

So Sally had three kids and Sharon had two more. No, honey. Makaroy then met and started seeing another underage girl named Alice. No. In 1964. Yeah. Seriously. Wait.

She was 12. No. Shut up. What? Shut up. I wish the story would end that all the ladies fucking murdered him and moved to New York City. And then became, you know, like... Okay.

That's what I was going to say. That's the story of the Rockettes. But it doesn't. That's how the Rockettes began. And then he met a young woman named Marsha. She was now living there. And then... So it's Marsha and Alice are living in his parents' house with the six kids.

And then he met 12-year-old... A lot of Brady Bunch commonalities right there. Then he met 12-year-old Trina. Jan. Jan, who was an eighth grader. And he seduced her. No, he didn't. He gave her candy.

Yeah. That's not seduction, dude. That's a very good point. That's not seduction. It's not seduction? No. No. It's not like he fucking put these sexy moves.

He was just like, I'm a... I am a man. You're a girl. That's what seduction is. Yeah. This is my pig. Yeah. Have you ever seen a pig?

And then you're in your sedan on the wood floor. He's 37, by the way. Oh. Ew. At this point. But he looks great. He looks fucking awesome. His abs are crazy.

So to have Trina moved in, he kicks out Marsha. He's like, you're old. You're like 13. So then Trina moves in, drops out of school in the 9th grade, and is pregnant by the time she's 14. But as awesome as this sounds, things weren't going that well because just 16 days after the birth, Alice took off to her parents' house. The escape lasted just hours because MacRoy came to the home with a gun and forced the

girls to come back with him. Oh, Alice, her other friend, who's there now? Whatever. The other one also went with her. Maureen? Let's call her Maureen. Maureen goes back also. Brought in for sweeps, Maureen.

So then he brings them back, and he beats them both. Oh, good. And made them... He means seduces. Yes. And made them have sex with him. And then, which I believe is called rape. Yes.

All right. And then when he was done, he brought Trina back to her parents' house and shot the family dog. No, you can't do that here. And then poured gas all around the house and burned it down. So he is in fuego. He's just fucking... As far as being horrible, he's killing it.

Yeah, he's doing very well. Oh, man. God. Just fucking chill out. It's not a solution, Georgia. No, it is. It won't work. I'm not sure.

If someone had walked in and gone, dude, chill. We don't know what would have happened. We don't. We know. A couple of days later, Trina went to a doctor because she had been beaten, and he was like, you look like you've been beaten. You're very good. Is this doctor from the city?

Yeah. He really knows his stuff. Boy, your degrees are real, huh? You put the nail on the head, duck. He slowly got the story of the beating out of her and the dog shooting and the arson. And the doctor... He must have just been like, at the end, like, all right, every detail. Get them all out now.

Six hours later. Really? So the doctor contacts the social welfare agency who put Trina and her baby into foster care because she was a child. And then the case was taken to the district attorney. And on the basis of Trina's testimony, McRoy was indicted for arson, assault, and rape. But it was not looking good. He was represented by defense attorney Richard Gene McFadden who said McRoy was his favorite

client because he always paid cash and he always came back. Wow. Get your shit another. What the fuck is wrong with you, dude? That's the worst. Hey, you're back! Who'd you kill? All right!

What, you shoot a pig or a person? What'd you do? A person doghouse. All right! Woo! Tri-factor. All right. I'm gonna buy a houseboat.

Time for me to live on a boat. But even with his 5,000 per felony charge, the attorney told him it would be difficult for him to be acquitted. But McRoy would not give up. He found the foster home where Trina was living and began to make threatening phone calls. He would sit out in front of the foster home for hours and hours, sometimes shooting a gun into the air. What?

He then called the foster family. He's a fucking nerd. Yeah. Yeah. It's a cartoon. It sounds like a cartoon. What about this isn't working? Didn't I not tell you this was Yusemine Sam?

Oh! Yusemine Sam origin story. Then he called the foster family and said he would trade court girl for girl to get his child back. By this he meant he knew where the foster family's biological daughter went to school and what bus she rode. So that didn't go well. The secret attorney then hit him with eight more felony child molestation charges as a

result of his sexual activity with Trina. The attorney kept using delay tactics and after a while Trina decided to go back to McRoy. I can't go through this again with you, Dave. He then arranged to divorce his second wife Sharon from whom he'd been separated for years and married Trina. To get Trina's parents to agree he threatened to kill the mother and the mother was like, okay, you can marry my daughter. We like him.

It's sweet. It's romantic. Oh my God. This solved all his legal problems because being his wife Trina could not be compelled to testify against him. She also signed a statement saying she had lied about everything and McRoy beat the charges. In 1976 he shot a neighbor farmer in the face and stomach. What?

The gun was loaded with bird shot. The lawyer also delayed it as long as possible while McRoy intimidated the farmer driving by his house, shining a spotlight into his windows at night, destroying his tractors and shooting guns into the air. The farmer said McRoy parked outside his home at least 100 times and would just sit there. At the trial two of his raccoon hunting buddies said they were with him the day of the shooting and McRoy got off again. The pattern committing crimes then intimidating witnesses went on for four years.

Then in 1980 two of his daughters went into a town store. He's got two daughters. One's like a teenager and the other's five. And he marries one of them. Both of them. It just can't get worse. So the older girl buys something and as they walk out the five-year-old girl grabs a couple little pieces of candy.

I did that. I did. And the clerk was like, hey, put that shit back. And then the girl was like, and threw it back and was mad, which is cool for a five-year-old. And then a couple hours later McRoy and Trina showed up and McRoy was just kicking it with a knife. And Trina and the owner argued about how he had treated the daughter. And then the couple said, well, you're banned from our store.

You can never come back. So McRoy started harassing the owners. And then after a couple months he pulled up in the back of the store and shot the husband owner in the neck with a shotgun. And he lived. This whole city is filled with people with the most powerful necks. Yes. Titanium necks.

Yes. What is it, the water or like? Their necks are bulletproof. It's so strange. They call. Now McRoy was arrested again. And then he started harassing the store owners. And he climbed the fuck down, man.

He needs to stop harassing and shooting in the neck. And the air. And marrying children. There's a lot of things for him to knock off. Dude's got a thing. This is a thing. We hate his thing. We're big, very clear.

I mean, take it up with Pepsi because they were sponsoring him. For doing all this? Yeah. He had like four sponsors. What's the extreme sports thing when you can skateboard? He's like X Games. He did it all on a little bike. O.G. X Games.

So he starts harassing the store owners. And then when he heard that the town minister had gone to visit the store owner in the hospital because of his neck wound, he turned his wrath on the minister. And told the minister he was going to castrate him and cut his son to pieces in front of him. So the minister started carrying a gun.

This is a good town. Got it. I liked it just because the minister went and visited him. He's like, well, I'm going to cut your kid up. He's like, it's my job. I see people that are hurt. God, that's me. I'm cutting your balls off.

I'm not laughing at that. So his lawyer's whole thing was delay tactics. We start with the delay tactics again. He keeps delaying the trial. Meanwhile, McElroy would sit in the local bar and talk loudly about how he was going to kill the store owner. But it didn't work. The bar was empty and it was like three people

and he was talking loudly in it. I can hear you. Sick of that guy, right? Someone should shoot him in the neck. OK, I will. So it didn't work. There was a trial and McElroy was convicted of second-degree assault

and sentenced to two years in prison. But... But... It being Missouri, he was allowed to stay free while he appealed. Oh, OK. That's nice. Four days later,

he was back in the local bar. Hey, how'd your conviction go? Oh, it was all right. Guilty. Guilty. Totally fucking guilty. Here I am drinking a beer. And then Trina came in and handed him a large gun.

Oh. He said he was going to kill the store owner. But having a gun was a violation of his parole, so he was charged. On the day he was hearing for his parole violation, the entire town decided

they had had enough. Yeah. I like the sound of this. After 20 years of fucking all their daughters. All right, that's it. This is the thing. You know what?

When you broke your probation, uh-uh, bro. Did the whole town show up in little pink hats and fucking march? Yeah. Was it one of those kind of things? Yeah.

It goes. Yeah. But when they got to the courthouse, they found out the lawyer had gotten him postponed for 10 days. Now they were pissed. And they finally decided

and they all went to the American Legion. I love that in this little town, they do have an American Legion. Great bar there. That in the Sam's Club. So they have a town meeting and they call the sheriff and ask the sheriff to come by.

The sheriff comes by and they tell him what's going on and the sheriff told them that they should just start a neighborhood watch group. That's good. So he's not very helpful. If he's going to help you with this case, find a very useful...

So, so there's a guy who's been fucking your daughters and shooting you in the neck. You need like a watch group. Have you guys made any kind of a phone tree or anything called each other? You guys can't believe it. What's your deal? Very good.

Uh, he told them not to confront McElroy and then the sheriff just left. Uh-huh. They were... But like they all had titanium necks. Yes, at this point they all have... Don't front that motherfucker.

Metal neck guards. Uh, right then, Trina and McElroy show up and went to the bar for a drink. When the townspeople heard this, they all decided to go have a beer. Uh-huh. Trina was said to be very intimidated

by all of the townspeople standing around. While McElroy coolly finished his beer, went up and bought a six pack, and then went outside. Outside there were three or four guys and they got their rifles out of their trucks. Yeah.

And then the entire crowd came out of the bar and followed him to his truck and it was said there were at the very least 35 people but probably more like 60. All standing there. And Trina and McElroy then got inside the truck

and he coolly lit his cigarette. Oh, fuck. And then Trina looked across the street and saw a man aiming a rifle and she yelled, they've got a gun. And then they shot at him from more than one direction. McElroy was hit once in the head

and once in the neck. And the shot... The head wound. It was the head wound. You've got to shoot in the neck in this town. You've got to. Legally. Welcome to Neckville, motherfucker. Ha ha ha ha. Many other shots at the truck.

All the shots came from different guns and McElroy died instantly. From the gunshots. No. From sadness. Oh, a depression. Suicide. Suicide.

It looks like he did it to himself. Carbon monoxide got him. About 45 minutes later he was shot once. Wow. That's sarcastic, actually. Unfortunately, no one saw the shooter. Except Trina,

who identified him. She was in the truck, and she saw him, but the DA declined to press charges because everyone was like, I... Because he was there, too. He was the guy hitting him with the iron pan on the head.

The FBI came in to investigate, but they also could not press any charges because everyone in the town was like, I don't know. He left behind ten children, ten wonderful children,

and a few wives. After his death, Catalan hog wrestling in the county dropped significantly. In 1984, Trina filed a $6 million lawsuit against the town and the sheriff

and the mayor and the guy who had shot him across the street. The case was settled out of court for $17,000. Oh. It's all making tonight. So she bought a Yaris? That's pretty cool.

Owns, though. Fully owns. Fully owns a Yaris. So that's my favorite murder. That's pretty good. But God... That fucking monster and they killed him. That was 1981 and they killed him and everyone was like...

I love it. What are you going to do? We'll get there again. We're on our way. Let's kill him. Okay, great. I'll go. Nice, Dave. Nice, Dave. Thank you.

Last time I came on, I wrote a story about a guy from my hometown who killed women and I can't do those stories because I really... Well, you're sexist. Well, to that point, I'll get into mine. This is about men killing women, right?

It's the same story as yours. A different interpretation? Yeah, totally different take. I do it from the big angle. So this will be fun. I'm from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, ripe for murders.

Teen skin Ottomans, Dahmer, obvious choice. Skin Ottomans? Did he make actual Ottomans? He made a nipple belt. Yeah, he made a nipple belt. CB2? I might have taken some creative liberties.

As we all know, Stephen Avery. This is another story. This is about the Northside Strangler who is actually... This is some more good detective work. So in October 10th and 11th, six two sex workers, Deborah Harris, Tonya Miller,

were both strangled one day apart. Both bodies found in vacant apartments. Since they were both strangled, sex workers found in empty apartments. Day apart, cops thought there might be a link. So it shows you they're pretty good there.

That's surprising. They're not stupid. However, this was before they were collecting DNA or DNA was shaky, so the murders went unsolved. So then June 20th, 1987, Joyce Ann Mims was found strangled in a vacant apartment

by some construction workers in Milwaukee's Northside. She was also believed to be a sex worker, had no criminal record, but George Mule Jones... Mule Jones? George Mule Jones. You mean George the Mule?

George the Mule Jones. Now is this the nickname? Is this a family name? I have a theory, but we'll get there. You probably know, you know him? No. Yes, we went to high school together. Yeah, he's at the Improvala.

George Mule Jones? He's great. Rides it on a horse? He's one of my favorite stand-ups. So they charged George Mule Jones with the murder because he was friends with Mims from Cleveland and they were still friends with Mims and

his girlfriend who was simply known as Sugar Baby. Why not Mims? Well, they're different. Mims was killed. They are the same and she should have been called Sugar Baby. I couldn't agree more, George. So,

Jones had a criminal record because he was actually convicted of murder in Mississippi. That doesn't mean anything. You aren't lying. He stabbed a woman and was sentenced to five years. You know what? It's time for your first murder. You're a stab, I think, is what they do there.

Your first murder should be like three. You know what I mean? And if you do it again, well, then all right. You're seriously going to piss George off and then it's going to get fucking ugly up here. I'm not going to get some of the crying. I'm going to flip this fucking table. No, but it'll be fine.

Let me get my beers and my iPad. So, the woman that he killed was there was named Shamika Carter. She had the inability to perform sexually. That happens a lot with murderers, right? Isn't that one of their things?

They can't get it up and then they kill. If I can't get it up, I just walk away. Thank you. Could you tell your friends? Like, shamefully, I'm like, I'm going to watch law and order! As long as murder is involved in some way.

I'm going to watch a murder be committed instead of committing my own. And then I'll be back. And then I'll be back with ideas! I might cut your buttocks! And a new soundtrack. Okay, so, he went down for that killing.

Police thought, but there's still killings going on. In his apartment, they found a black ski mask and nine women's shoes. I have that too in my house, though. Wait, these are nine women's shoes and a ski mask? That's actually all I have in my house. Nine is a weird number.

Unless there was a lady with just one leg. Not in my notes. So, he goes down for these murders. He goes down for this murder in particular. Yes, this one. There's been three murders so far.

This is the third murder. There's more to come. We see your papers in your hand. I'm moving fast. In my story, the bad guy dies. We were there. So, the idea of a serial killer was floated out by Bill Vogel,

who was the homicide unit in Wisconsin, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He told the police's chief that he thought both women that were killed the year before were done by the same man. He entered with a business-like attitude to quote, to discuss the matter, and I used the word serial,

and I got reamed out, said Vogel. Get out of here, Vogel, you son of a bitch! I used the word serial again! I hate that podcast! You're talking about Cheerios! Season two sucks, no? I'm totally kidding! Steven, cut that out.

Cut that out. Cut that out. And both the doors. You will all unremember. No one is forgetting. Can we get the steam, whatever the fuck? Gas. We gonna knock these people out?

I'm right, we are. Like the Joker at Batman. So, yeah, his chief was like, hey man, we don't want people freaking out with the word serial. Let's just shut up about that. That's the best way to handle a possible serial killer.

Let's act like it's not happening. Strangulations kept happening. In 1992, where Irene Smith, 25, was found dead, in 1930, or 1932, we're going back. He was a time jumper. I should point that out.

Time had no meaning in this one. The year was 1804, he went to. Started a new life of murder, and he did. He then killed a dinosaur! Oh, he sure did! So, basically, more people are dying, more sex workers. How many more?

We're right now at about five. Karen D. killed Patrick. 32 was killed in 1994. Both women were strangled. Both were sex workers. Police still had no way of connecting these crimes, but there was a homicide detective named Steve Spagnola,

Spignola, who was set on finding the person. And in 1995, April 24th, Florence McCormick's body was found in a shitty basement on Locust Street. It sounds like he's killing ladies whose names start with Mick. I don't think that tracks in my stuff.

You just fucking solved this case. I'm putting shit together. The Scottish killer. Wait, he's Scottish too? I don't know. I'm fucking throwing out theories. Let's put shit on the board. Sure, is there a board?

I'm not sure. So, yeah, McCormick's body was found. She was tied up on a sink. Her hair was neat, fingernails suggested no struggle. Her socks were clean, which I'm not sure what that means, but that was pointed out. I guess they make it sound like that is how they know she was murdered.

Vuggles over there. Vuggles over there in the corner just smelling her socks. These are good. I have never worn clean socks in my life. That's what I was thinking. If someone buys me the clean socks, something's fucking wrong.

When we die, people will be like, it's a murder! Their socks are filthy! What does filthy sock mean? I don't know. Look, that's for you guys. That's for you guys. I'm merely a shepherd.

By the way, there's some tech home stuff. Under your seats. Okay, so Spignola didn't think that there was no sexual activity. There was no semen on the body. There was no semen around the body, which he thought was possible because sometimes the killer

may masturbate near the body, which happens because guys are just normal things. And that's a normal thing to do. Her body was posed, it was bound, but they thought there was some level of comfortability between the two

because it seemed like there was little struggle for this. So they thought that he was like, hey, let me bind you and we'll kill you. No, I don't think you threw that part out there. Maybe a tell. 1995, two months after the murder of McCormick, Sheila Farrier was discovered six blocks away

from home. She was a sex worker in an empty apartment this time strangled by her own brassiere. Posed, crack pipes, pipe cleaners, just a lot of crack, a good scene. So it's a crack house. It's an empty apartment where crack was smoked.

But pipe cleaners, like for crafts? For crack. No one's doing crafts. People are doing crack, which can lead to crafts, but I don't believe that that was the direct implication, no. So at this point there's... There were vision boards everywhere.

I'm glad we could do this. At this point there's like seven dead women all found in abandoned apartments and they're like strangled and they're like, I don't see a connection. Cops are like, man, something's going on, huh? You hungry? Just get lunch.

You know what, I would say this was the same killer, but the socks are different. Look at these socks are filthy. Then they actually finally got a DNA sample. They didn't really know for who, but in August 30th, 1995, there was the body of a 16-year-old runaway

named Jessica Payne, who was found with her throat slit. How was she found? It's a really cool story. A real meat cute. What happened was on August 30th, the two young boys went to abandoned mattress that they

normally use as a makeshift trampoline. However, a normal just kid stuff. Where's boys jumping? You've got to play with garbage. As a kid. Jump out of a refuse, you scamps. But this day, they weren't getting a bunch of bounce like normal.

And the reason was because Jessica Payne's body was underneath it. No, no, no, no, no. As I said, this time there was appearance of sexual activity. Those boys are fine now. The boys are fine. I will sleep on the floor tonight.

You're going to sleep standing up again, Kyle? Yeah, I think so. I think I'll sleep better standing up, Dad. I can only sleep if you lay under the mattress. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was semen present. They had some DNA.

They still couldn't connect it to anybody, but they thought that this might be related. A guy named Richard Gwynn was in jail. He started implicating himself in two others. This guy, Sam Hadaway, was in jail. Sure.

Gwynn told police he was driving. He was in the car with Hadaway. He parked in front of abandoned residents where they remained in his vehicle, conversing, listening to the radio, drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana. Just fun car games. And Gwynn said at some point,

Hadaway, Haughton Payne, exited the vehicle, walked to an alley, and then Hadaway returned to the car followed by Haught five minutes later and said that they had to rob Payne, but her pockets were empty, so Haught just cut her throat. That happens.

That's a good thing. Hadaway confirmed Gwynn's story, providing further detail about the murder and that Haught cut Payne's throat. Hadaway described a situation and when he searched for her pockets, he found nothing, so he pushed her down on the mattress, pulled down her pants, pulled up her shirt,

and tried to force her way in. But Hadaway said he didn't actually see that she heard choking and gagging to see the Payne's throat was cut and the blood was gushing out. Yes. What the... I don't know. Okay, you're just reacting like a human.

I get it, as you should. Just bummin'. Again, my guy died, but... So, 1995, the police found a search warrant for Haught's home. They found two box cutters and a knife among his possession. That was really all the evidence that they had,

but Haught was sentenced to life in prison with parole available in 50 years. The main evidence in the trial was the two box cutters. The police... But that sounds nothing like the other ones. Weird, right? I'm scared. So,

DNA evidence started being used in 1990. Wisconsin fully came around to 2015 to really collecting DNA from every violent criminal. 1990's where most places started collecting a database of violent criminals. Wisconsin finished in 2015.

So, just a mere 25 years. Yes, just a mere difference. Um... Is that an issue for you? Yeah, it's for a lot of us, yeah. Okay, that's interesting. So, now the police felt that they had DNA

that they had found at that scene. So, they now had DNA from a number of women. They had DNA from the woman in 1986, two in 95, one in 97, and the latest... There were no more murders until April 27, 2007. Okay. When Quithreen Stokes,

28, was found strangled by city inspectors after they were going to inspect a vacant, boarded up residence, they found DNA at this scene and now police had the DNA from the two women in 86, 97, all that, 2007, and it all matched to one person. But the police couldn't figure out who it was.

Since the DNA matched nothing in their databases, they knew they were dealing with something that had never been convicted of a violent crime before, which is curious. So, two detectives of the Milwaukee Department Homicide Unit reexamined the DNA linked to the suspect and they believed they found him.

So, on September 7, 2009, Walter E. Ellis of Milwaukee was arrested at noon at a hotel by a swarm of police officers. Ellis was booked on a temporary felony warrant, was being questioned by the police. They took a DNA sample from his place off his toothbrush and they had a match. He was matched...

He was even matched for the two murders that men were already serving sentences for. So, awkward. Here's what's crazy awkward. They should have had his DNA. Because it wasn't from a lack of opportunities. He was convicted of a shitload of crimes. 1978 felony burglary,

79 drug charges, 80 robbery, 81 controlled substance, 81 again possession with intent to distribute, 85 soliciting and beating up two sex workers, 87 retail theft, 92 release for good behavior, 92 back in for violating that good behavior, 94 stabbing his girlfriend with a screwdriver.

Ben there. Not the drink. 95 battery for choking his girlfriend, 97 resisting arrest, 98 reckless injuries, so he had a track record. But hold on, when would they have gotten any DNA? Well, because they collected, they still collected DNA. They just didn't collect it from every violent criminal.

Are you having fun with me? Yep. So, the DNA was never asked for. But in 2001 police discovered that they actually had gotten his DNA. What? Or at least they had at one point.

There was an issue. His DNA matched nothing in their system. And they know that one of two things happened. A, Ellis convinced his cellmate to submit the DNA for him. Come on. Or B, it was lost in transfer to the Oshkosh police department who said they never received it. Wait a second.

Is Oshkosh where Stephen Avery? Yep. Is that also where they make the overalls? Yes, it's famous for two things now. Which is cool. I'm not sure which is a bigger crime. It's the same police department. This is the same fucking police department.

Well, it's the same region. Shut the fuck up. Yeah, they share a Walmart. It's real. Fuck. So had they done this in the 90s, like most places, they would have stopped, five to seven murders.

They would have stopped one if they'd done it in 2001, when it was totally expected of them. So in 2008, an appeals court overturned Ott's conviction, the guy who they said cut the mattress murderer. They had a new trial with new DNA evidence. 2009, they announced

they would not seek a new trial. Ott was freed. He served 13 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. George Mule Jones died in prison April 30th, 2012, but it is not too sad because he was also a previous murderer. He just didn't do the one we talked about. Ellis was found...

Okay, good, good, good. Am I doing good? Yeah, yeah. Ellis was found guilty of seven murders in total, but he was thought to have been guilty of nine. He was sentenced to seven life sentences in 2011. And here's the fucker. He's out.

He died in 2013. So he served two years. These murders went from 1986 to 2007 and he was in for less than two years. How old was he? He was like in his 50s. Tell me he died painfully. He was in a hospital.

I want to point out that, though, even if they had had his DNA and put it through... putting it through CODIS and actually checking that DNA, as we know from the rape kits that are not tested, that doesn't mean he would have been caught. It's not like, oh, they should have...

they had tested it and had his DNA. Everything would have been fine. So, you know, started testing... Well, yeah, who knows what could have happened. Crazy 25-year window. He was also known as a fucking lunatic. Like, they... How about this guy?

Yeah, everyone was like, he's crazy. He lives right around every one of these murders. Let's not all assume that these systems that they have in place to catch people are like the end-all-be-all. It takes a lot more than that. So it doesn't mean that these seven women wouldn't have been killed.

Between 1986 and 2007, 42 prostitutes were killed in Milwaukee. Only 31% of those cases have been solved. They're great there. Oh! Shit.

And we'll be there in April. See you there. Again, mine wrapped up super nice. I mean, well, first of all, it's always hard to go last. It's always hard to go last, but it was fucking rough. No, yes, great job.

Yes, thank you. That's fucked up. How do you feel about it? Terrible. I really am so shocked at how little they give a fuck. When you really find out how... It's like politics, but when you find out

that they're really just worried about what people think over actually doing good, you're like, we're just fucked. Well, that's something we run across every day, I fucks up. Can I end with something? Just a personal story? So, my

uncle, I lived in California. I grew up in Marin County. A little bit better than Petaluma. I don't know if that... But my uncle was a huge drug dealer. That's way better than Petaluma. And at one point

he got... The law was getting down on him, and he decided to move to Florida to get out of California because it was the local cops. And I went... We went to this big going away party and opened up a suitcase that was full of just fucking cash.

I was like 12, and I was like, that's cool. And then he left. And then all of his friends, the people that I had met at parties at his house, about 10 of them, shut up in trunks. All around Marin County. Dead body trunks?

One after the other. Like chilling in trunks. John's dead in a trunk. Marty's dead in a trunk. Mary's dead in a trunk. All of his friends got killed. And you're saying that's the FBI? Yes!

That's insane! I wasn't the gang drug dealer members that they were hanging out with. It couldn't have been them. Or natural causes. Good Lord, there's theories, sir. It's suffocation. I forgot to mention that they all

lived in trunks. That's a huge detail. You guys, will you please help us thank Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds. Thank you very much. We appreciate it so much. Thank you all for coming here. This has been an amazing night.

Hey you guys, stay sexy. And don't get maddered! Don't get maddered!