My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 55 - Let's Hear Your Podcast

Episode Date: February 9, 2017

Full of twists and turns, it's a new My Favorite Murder! This week Karen and Georgia get real deep into the story of french maids, Christine and Léa Papin and the "carnival atmosphere" surrounding Dr. Sam Sheppard and the murder of his wife, Marilyn Reese Sheppard.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hi. How are you?

How are you? Hi. Is that supposed to sound conversational or just in tune, like simultaneous? Can I be honest? I don't know what we're doing. I don't either. But I like the arm raised part. I think it's kind of like a, and we're off like a conductor, but like we're conductors

and extra. Yeah. A murder orchestra now. I think this is like episode 55 and we still haven't figured out how to start the stupid fucking podcast. But really it's space. It's like episode three, though, because this is the third episode in my new apartment. That's right.

Third or second? I have three. Third? Thirdish. Third. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're going to use to it, you know? Like we don't know. It's just different. We've got to feel it out. It's definitely different. It's different. I can see the kitchen.

I'm staring at that. There's totally new blinds. Yeah. Clear. It's big. It's definitely a bigger space. Yeah. It feels like we have to fill more.

It doesn't feel like mine yet. So like we're podcasting at a stranger's house. Right. Like I don't want to spill anything on the couch. I love this couch, by the way. Thank you. It's really good. I want it.

I got a deal. I got a deal on it. Yeah. It's very smart of you. Thank you. Ikea. Guys. Hey, hi.

Hi. Oh, hi. This is the furniture hour. This is introspection evening. This is apartment introspection. I would like to say just as a kicker offer, I got in a lot of trouble that I haven't yet watched the Slender Man documentary from one Miss Julie Clausner, who I saw last week because she did Guy's Show when I was working on it.

And it was the first thing she said to me is, oh my God, can you believe the Slender Man? Don't you love that about people now? Is that the first thing they talk to you about as murder? And they're so mad when you don't know what they're talking about or that you haven't watched it. Okay. Can I just say I love Julie Clausner, her book, I Don't Care About Your Man, Amazing.

She's fucking, that was a stupidest fucking documentary. Oh girl. Dude. Yes. It's just was like. Shots fired. It was a really cool documentary about psychological issues that the two girls who stab the shit out of their friends had.

Yes. Yes. But as far as like the folklore of the Slender Man, it just like wasn't compelling. It was cool. Like there were two different documentaries. One was about like creepypasta and like cool stories that people online write about like creepy things. Yes.

And one was about two girls who have some serious mental issues. Right. So I just didn't love it. Were you looking for more of that Slender Man folklore story and it just was too much of real people? No. I knew. I already, I went in knowing that it wouldn't be, that it wouldn't, I wouldn't be happy

with it. Right. Cause I'd write about it a lot. And like I love the old like black and white photos that like purportedly show Slender Man in the background and it's fucking cool as shit. Slender Man is the fakest of all of those like, first of all, creepypasta. I want to get into it and anytime, you know, like last podcast on the left has episodes that where they read listeners creepypastas.

And I can practically see the 14 year old boy writing it at his desk. Like it is so, because you get kind of hooked in, there was one, I remember one, not on that podcast, but one time reading by myself at home. And it was about these guys that had found this whole and it, on the website, I think I may have found it on Reddit. I can't remember where it was like guys who found a hole that they kept going into. They were like basically caving. And then it's like, they basically climbed in at one point really far and kind of got

stuck and then something came at them at the end. Yeah. They're like, they're made up horror stories or like creepy stories and that's cool. But yeah, it's like a little, well, the problem is that with all storytelling, the hardest part is the ending. The hardest part is why are you telling this whole thing? What is it going to lead up to? And commas, which are, they're lacking endings and commas and maybe accurate spelling, accurate

spelling and punctuation. The whole thing is basically a visit to a junior high class I never had to be in because I'm too old. If I were 20 and I could read this shit and the internet like existed in its form now, I would be, I would be so obsessed, but I'm not and I can't and I won't. And for this Slender Man, it's like, well, I never heard one hint or hair of Slender Man when I was growing up, which means this isn't even based in reality. It's not like an old witch that it's like, did you hear about that?

Did you hear about the Blair Witch? Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary. Did you hear her tell? This Slender Man is as, it's almost like they did, they did some test focused groups at the mall of like, what would scare you really tall skinny man in the back of the playground? Hot topic. Yes. Which like, I worked there.

I'm not trying to talk, I am talking shit, but I worked there too. So fuck you. It's like, it's kind of like Jack Skellington's head got stretched. Instead of Jack Skellington being sweet with a big round punk in head, his head got stretched and he turned strangely evil and he just decided to lurk. What the best part of this documentary to me was the girl who ends up having like serious mental issues that stab their friend, which I think is an interesting story if you're into true crime, the mother, her mother that they interviewed, like there's something mentally

wrong with her. Like she's like kind of like crazy in this really subtle way. And like that study to me, like watch it if you're into that, like and tell me what's going on there. Cause she's trying to be so empathetic, but it's so creepy and not right. It's like a Ted Bundy, we're trying to be empathetic, like when he has that weird interview and you're like, something is off here. Wait, hold on.

Knock, knock, knock. Yes. Who is it? Oh, we are being sued by the mother of this slender man, child murderer. I didn't say her fucking name, man. Well, I didn't say her name slender man. Well, but also isn't that what everybody's watching any of those things for is like basically you're the armchair psychologist and you're watching cause it's like, yeah, you're right.

Two kids, two 12 year old girls as intense as being in junior high for girls is. And I would, I was literally and truly, we've talked about it a million times would not go back for $5 million. I would never go back. I mean, five million. Well, no, you would spend it by the time you got to our age, but that's a stupid fucking idiot. Um, but, uh, it doesn't happen out of nowhere.

And so there are those weird combinations of things that happen if like, if you don't have, I'm like, thank God I had an older sister that told me to shut up all the time because then I actually did shut up some of the time. And so I didn't suffer 99% of time. Yeah. Thank God I had a mom and a sister who made me feel so bad about myself that I was scared to say anything. Yes.

And so I didn't say most of the shit. Yeah. It's true. I mean, I, yeah, um, oh, speaking of armchair, not armchair. So I've been like deep into fucking true crime this week for some reason this past week. And this show, I think I told you about it on Friday. It's called crime in the family and it's so fucking good. It's the chick.

No, no, no. It's called killer in the family. Of course I got that wrong. So Laura Richard, who is one of the hosts of the real crime profile podcast, who also who also, you know, led the case of John Bonnet Ramsey documentary where they hit the kid with the flashlight. Oh yeah. With the flashlight.

Yes. So she turns out as really fucking smart and cool and she's the head of the violent crime and intelligent analysis unit in the UK. And she has fucking stopped family killings by identifying like at risk offenders and fixing them before they kill the whole family. So every fucking episode is a different kind of family killer, like person who kills their family, turns out. And she, it's not just like salacious.

She tells you like, here's one of the warning signs. Here's what he did first. Here's like the shit leading up to the murder. Yes. So that you can identify those signs in your boyfriend or husband. I don't know. Or your wife. I don't know.

Or a young girl that lives in the apartment complex near you. Thank God. I was like, does Vince have that? Vince doesn't have that. Vince doesn't have that. No. Vince is not like that at all. Like I just kept doing that.

Yeah. So I'm not going to get killed by Vince. Good. But it's really good news. It's on Netflix. I killer in the family. Check it. So it's a new series on Netflix?

I don't know. It's, I don't know if it's a new series, but I think it just got on Netflix. Yeah. I've never heard of it. That's cool. This chick, fucking Laura Richards is cool as shit. Cool. Yeah.

Also, turns out, Oochester is nuts. It's Woosta. Did you know that? I wouldn't have known it from spelling. It's Worchester. It's spelled Worchester. Yeah. And it's pronounced Wooster.

Wooster. I think you have to do the like Wooster. Yeah. Yeah. You have to talk like Marky Mark-Walberg. I didn't know. How am I supposed to know? We are from California.

Yeah. Yeah. No. People who live in Boston or from Boston get real up in arms about Wooster. Wooster. Um, that's corrections corner. Oh, okay. Do you have any?

Uh, not offhand. Yeah. I think we totally nailed it last week. There's not one thing that we said incorrect. Except Wooster. Except Wooster. Uh, also I haven't, I haven't admittedly, I've been working so much that I haven't been able to be online.

Make any mistakes. Or make mistakes. I've just been, I nail it. You know, I feel like when I work, I just nail it constantly. Yeah. Like you don't have time to think and so your brain isn't like second guessing. I don't get in my own way. I just like naturally good.

You're the best when you're just being you, you guys always be you unless you're a murderer. Is that a meme? Yeah. Uh, is it? Yeah. That you just made up? Be yours. No, it's like, it's not mine.

Always be yourself. Unless you're a murderer. Then don't be yourself. I don't know. That's hilarious and catchy. It should be one if it's not. Um, I tell you, you're making fun of me. I am.

Absolutely. Good. Good. That was, that was a lot. Do you, do we have, do we have to talk about this tour? We're now basically like, um, the Eagles where we're on tour every weekend. We had a meeting where we found out how many more tour dates are coming. If you live in some part of the United States where we have, we are not like on record as

to be visiting yet. Then you can stop tweeting at us. Yeah. Come to South Carolina. We'll probably don't be mad at us just because we're in this part of it. We're not. It's not about that. Texas.

We hear you. This isn't the one. This isn't the only one. Yeah. Hopefully. Fingers crossed. There seems to be so much more that I, as we were having that meeting and we're making these plans, I was like, I have to get like my teeth fixed.

What? I had to get my teeth fixed so that I am not on a plane and somehow like some two, like I, like I have that. That's my anxiety of like, we're going to be traveling and I'm going to be in some weird place. And then all of a sudden it's like that. Nine is that I'm going to die and not like in a weird place. Just like, oh, suddenly you're just dead.

Yeah. That I'm going to die or that Vince is going to die. And we're like, the thought of someone dying when you're not close to them or you dying and you're far away, like is so much worse to me than like, than dying in the same city. That's worse. Then someone dying directly next to you with their eyes open staring at you. Yeah. And then the next to the whole time instead of like, how did it go through the airport

security? Oh, that's true. And I can't do anything to help and like, ugh. I mean, there's, yeah, there's nothing good about it. Traveling is going to be fun with me, Karen. I mean, I feel like we should start stockpiling pills now. Yeah. Just like whatever pills we can get our hands on.

Don't send us your fucking Etsy merch. We want pills. Unless you're adding. Is this illegal? We're not fucking sending it. Yes. Or, or, or because we have these feelings and we know about them, they were going to have like very peak experiences because it's like, whoa, we lived and that was fun.

And we, and we saw that one river. And everything was fine. And everything was fine. And then we got back home. Yeah. That's my like, I mean, I work on this a lot in therapy where it's like, what, like, what if you get home and everything was fine? Aren't you going to be bummed that you were worrying the whole time?

Like what a waste of this fucking incredible experience. Right. I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible. I don't know why. What? What are you, what's it going to say? I don't know. I just like, that's my like plan to get excited about something.

I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible hotel room that I stay in, in their Bible. Can I make a suggestion? Yes. What if you just draw a middle finger? Like just a drawing of just a hand flipping off your middle finger, my correct middle finger. Wait. Remember we got.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. That's right. One of our big fights. I mean, I'm not, I'm never, I'm not going to draw in a Bible. I'm going to put a post-it note in a Bible. A post-it note of a middle finger. Yeah.

For. I don't know why that's the first thing that popped into my head. I went to Catholic school. So maybe it was just like worst case scenario or a big Jewish star. We have, we got it first. Make it, put a Jewish star right where the New Testament starts. Yeah. As if to say.

It doesn't exist. It's like a stop sign. But it's a Jewish star. What if in the, in the beginning where it says the Bible, you know, do they have an opening like the Bible written by, yeah, I'll just put a, I'll just change it to the Torah. People are like, what the hell? Yeah. The Torah actually.

All right. That. And actually. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. The Torah.

There's a couple of people that have tweeted us and they figured out how to write. I'm sorry. And the I'm is tiny. I don't know how they did that. Do you? The text of I'm is really small. Like legitimate. No, I don't know how they did that.

I don't either. It was pretty cool. Someone actually tweeted us and it said, I'm sure someone's already done this, but look. And then it said, I'm sorry. I bet it says fucking the young, creepy pasta fucking slender kids who know how to work the internet. Like we don't. It's some 14 year old boy who we had been shitting on who was like, but I made the I'm sorry

text. Yeah. Who stopped listening. Yeah. He was like, Oh, I'm not wanted here. One hot tear burning down his cheek. Honey, come back underneath his, his, his transition lenses. Listen, we're your mothers.

We're trying to make you get out and fucking play in the street. That's right. Please play in the street. Go talk to strangers. Like get to get to know people. Like don't sit in home and like write slender man fucking cosplay. They're like, but this whole time you've been telling me to stay at home and not talk to strangers, not cosplay.

Trust anybody. What's the one where they were like Kermit and like Gonzo bone each other. Oh, like erotic fan fiction. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. My God, I'm aging myself so much dude. Um, we might die before this tour even starts.

Let's get honest. Okay. Um, all right. Should we start this thing? I don't think we have any other. Do we have other stuff? I have a merch corner. Okay.

We have to mention a couple of live shows and then we have a merch corner and merch corner. Um, so we have a new, we have toxic masculinity ruins the party. One of Karen's great quotes. Um, we have a, we have a bunch of merch with that on it. I just bought a t-shirt. Can you wear your own shit if it's political? Can you wear your own? Like it's like a band thing where you can't wear your own merch.

I'm not sure these days. I'm not sure how that works, but I feel like that one is like a saying and it doesn't say my favorite murder on it. And for this, the t-shirts of the toxic masculinity, we're giving 50% to the ACLU throughout February. So if you want a fucking t-shirt, go buy it and feel good about yourself. Man. And then we have some live show. Steve and gave me the thing.

Okay. If you live in one of these cities, uh, Seattle. Nope. Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Washington DC, Baltimore, Glenside, Pennsylvania. Go buy a ticket to our show. You can go to my favorite murder.com slash live. Oh, and our merch is on my favorite murder shirts.com. Uh-huh.

Uh, so there's tickets left at all those shows, which is cool. Yeah. Um, so if you feel like it, you can go to one of those. I mean, maybe we'll, maybe we'll say hi. The end. Goodbye. Bye. Looking for a better cooking routine?

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You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Who's first this week? Karen Kay. Stephen. Stephen Howes. Thank God. Okay. This, now, now that I don't have a job, it was super fun to sit down from my computer

and have nothing else fucking standing over me. Isn't it fun? And get into something. Yeah. And here's how I found this, this murders specifically. The, I had one packet left of the murder cards that those, those serial killer or murder are like true crime playing cards or something. Not the cold case playing cards, but they were just like baseball cards.

Yeah. Remember that we got, Stephen, did you get us those for Christmas? Yes. He's like, yeah. He motherfuckers. Yes. So I had one pack left. I looked over, I was sitting in, I was like crick, crick, crick ready to find some story.

And then I looked over, she just cracked her fingers. Oh yeah. That's me cracking my knuckles. And I looked over and I had one packet unopened of those cards. It's a sign. I opened it up. There's of course three mafia guys where it's like enough already with you people. Yeah.

Eileen Warnos is in there. Hi. How are you? Exciting. But, you know, well trod territory. Then I come upon this. Oh my God. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. And this is the best idea to get murderous because I'm like, what am I going to fucking do? I should just shuffle a deck and pick one that's not mobbed. Because there's tons of good ones. And they start you off like you know every detail.

And then you can be like, oh yeah, there is enough there. This is the kind I want to talk about. I'm sorry. Do that again with your paper because I was, and so. Also, I just really enjoyed like I was typing. It was all for myself. I didn't have to turn it in. Nobody was waiting for me to turn it in.

Yeah. Girl. Honey. I like it. Okay. Come with me back to France. Ooh. February 2nd, 1933.

Ooh. That's right. So, a man named Monsieur Lanceland is supposed to have dinner with his wife and daughter at their friend's house. He gets there first. They're supposed to meet him there. At 6.30, they don't show up. So, he goes home to see what's taking them so long.

He arrives to find the front door. The front door is bolted from the inside. And the only light on in the entire house is the glow of a single candle. So, he knows that something is terribly wrong. So, he goes to the police station because he thinks a prowler has broken in. He brings the police back to the house and two officers climb the back wall and break in the back door. But all the lights in the house are out and it's totally silent.

They look around the ground floor with their flashlights. They're quietly looking around because they're all thinking there's a prowler inside the house. Yeah. And they start to climb the back stairs quietly. And when they're almost to the first floor landing, so basically the ground floor, they're calling the first floor the ground floor and the second floor the first floor in this story.

I don't know if it's a French thing. I found it very confusing. But it's basically ground floor, first floor, second floor. Right. I did that with my hands, visually only for Georgia. Sorry, everybody at home. Okay. So, as they're almost to the first floor and truly the second floor landing, the first

officer on the stairs sees a white marble on the stair in front of him. So, he leans down to pick it up. It's an eyeball. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. We're off to the races.

No. Ew. It's a human eyeball looking up at him. So they climb the last few steps to the first floor, which is actually the second floor, and they find the bodies of Mrs. Law Solan and her daughter, her adult daughter, brutally murdered. Oh, my God. Their faces, quote, reduced to a pole.

Oh, my God. Well, I've read a couple of those, and that blows my mind over time. Okay. I was super bummed because after I read this card, read the Wikipedia page, then I found on YouTube, which I highly recommend, a British crime series, and now there's all these ones I want to watch. I, of course, forgot to write down what the name of it is, but this one was about them, and had all these French experts and all these people, whatever, and the British narrator

also spoke French, so he pronounced all these names really well. Yeah. There is a... Good for him. Good for him. You know what? That's how it is over there in Europe. Yeah.

Great. We're happy for him. There is a picture of this crime scene that I accidentally saw from 1933 from 1933, and it is so fucking awful. I want to say that. Is that gross? No. I mean, that's what some people are all about.

I'm not normally about it because it sticks, my brain takes a picture of it, and I can look back at it anytime I want to, which then I'll do that all the time, so I normally don't. Yeah. But there was a part where they talk about how the adult daughter, Jean-Viv, that her calves and butt were stabbed and slashed, and as they're explaining that part, the picture just pans across. Oh, they didn't even tell you.

Yeah. They didn't even prep you in any way, and it was really horrifying. It was really, really gruesome, and not just thin-knife marks, like these big open gashes, and as many as you could fit on the back of both legs. Brock, are you serious? Yeah. It was horrible. Then it pans out and shows both, and these women, you can't see their faces.

They're so... It's such a gruesome attack. Yeah. Bashing the head to pulp, I saw a crime scene photo once on Cold Case Files where you couldn't see the guy's head because he had a hoodie on, and there was just nothing there. Yes. And I did not want to see that. That's how this is.

It's really upsetting because the front of them, they look like old-fashioned 30s women, and then, yeah, horrifying. Brock, dude. So it really is that. Okay, so the officers there, so they come upon the scene. They said there's teeth and bone on the floor. It's like, it's just, it's brutal. Carnage.

So they're thinking, okay, this murderer is still in the house because the front door is bolted from the inside. So they go up to the second story. Third story. Third? Third for us, second for France. And they're checking everything, they come, they check every single room, and they check the laundry room, and they see that there is an iron sitting there with a wrinkled shirt

on the ironing board, and they realize that the maids in the house were surprised while they were working and interrupted during their work. And so they're like, okay, so there's two maids that are probably also the victims of this guy in this house. So they're like, holy shit. Where are they? Room by room, they're looking for this, you know, the intruder and these bodies. How scary you're like with a fucking flashlight doing that.

Horrifying, right? Once they see that, once they see the actual first murder scene, and then they find in the laundry, the laundry room that the maids were there and that their work was interrupted, they go back downstairs, they let the sergeant into the house, and then the other policeman sent for the superintendent, the examining magistrate and the coroner. And then the police go back up and continue to search the rest of the house. And it finally ends at the maids' chambers. They find that that room is bolted from the inside.

So they're like, okay, this guy's in this room. They worry that the dead bodies of the maids are in there with him. So they call a locksmith. And so then the lock, they wait around for the locksmith to come and they're listening at the door while they wait for the locksmith and it's dead silent. And locksmiths take time. I know, right? In like a little French village.

So I said, this is back when doors were actually made of something, you couldn't just break it down by like drawing your shoulder into it twice, like every cop show, which had then made me think of the time that my sister, I really wanted to borrow this pink and black pinstripe jumpsuit of my sister's in high school. It's horrible. It's so 80s. It looked like it was like black and pink pinstripe. Black and pink pinstripe.

Jumpsuit. So it was like black lapel, black buttons, a black patent leather belt. Yes. It sounds, you know what it sounds snazzy. It's snazzy jazz hands. Jumpsuit. What's your name? Snazzy jazz.

Snazzy jazz hands. My sister, who was a lot thinner than me in high school, was like, no, you can't borrow it, it'll look bad on you, which it did, but she was like, had no problem being, you wanted to show her. Don't do it. So then I made my mom make her lend it to me and she's like fine and gave it to me, but she didn't give me the belt. So the middle part was just elastic without the belt with two loops that the belt was

supposed to go through. And it made me so angry that I kicked a hole in the bottom of my sister's bedroom door. Holy shit. Because we were home alone. So my sister's like, fine, you can borrow it and threw it at me, but then there's no belt. So it was like the whole thing fell apart. So I got, it was just like the culmination of everything.

Kicked a hole in the bottom of her door. She opened the door like, holy shit. And then we were both like, oh no, like now we're dead because it was both, it doesn't matter that you did it, you did it because she was pissing you off. We're both in trouble. So you're both in fucking trouble. And big trouble because my dad did not play with stuff like that. Like, yeah, he was, he would get really mad.

So we took one of those, remember those really big Mrs. Grossman stickers? There was like really big hearts, really kind of basic teddy bears. It was like the first sticker wave of the early 80s. So I had a really huge Mrs. Grossman sticker and we just stuck it at the bottom of my sister's door. I think it's sweet that she like helped you. Yeah. Well, she had to.

I know, but it's also like sweet. Yeah. She knew she was being an asshole. Yeah. Then my mom came home from work is like, you think I'm stupid? Yeah. Like, I know you didn't put a sticker at the bottom of Laura's door for no reason. And it's like concave.

Yeah. Exactly. And we were super scared. And then my mom goes, no, you do realize that your dad, because my dad had eight brothers and sisters, when they would fight, they fought one time so bad that they were chasing one brother that one brother locked himself in the room and the other brothers took the door off the hinges to get to him. Holy shit.

And she's like, no, he has, he'll have nothing to say about this. Don't worry about it. It's not annoying about parents is like, you never know what's going to fucking piss them off. That's exactly right. If they're scared, then they'll be on your side. Yeah. And if you're like, yeah, fuck it, I kicked a thing and then you're like, you're grounded

for eight days. Anyhow, listen, the locksmith shows up because they had to literally break in that way. Okay. I know. Now we're back in France and a horrible, horrible murder has cut from Sacramento to France. Petaluma. Petaluma.

They push, he pushes a thing. He makes the key fall out of the other side. They open the door and the two maids are in bed. Sleeping? No. With puppies? Just with each other. Sisters.

It just in their robes. And one of the maids says, we were expecting you. Wait, they're not dead? No. Next to the bed, there's a candle on a stool and next to the candle, there's a hammer covered in blood. So cool. That's right, girl.

Oh my God. I was not. I thought it was the dad. Oh my God. I was not expecting that. I really made it. So I twisted and turned you on this one. You're a good storyteller.

Thank you. It's because I hated my sister so much. Thanks Laura. Thanks a lot. It's all to her doing. So the police ask them, what did you do to your masters? And the older maid replies, they wanted to hit me. I would rather do my masters in than let them do us in.

But like with a thousand blows. Yeah. So holy shit. The police ask their names and the maid tells them that she is Christine Papin and the other maid is her younger sister, Leah or Leah, I'm sure. When the police sergeant accuses them of murdering the mother and the daughter, Leah cries out, they shouldn't have threatened us. And the police start to focus their questioning on Leah because she seems to be the more

fragile of the two. But then with just one look from her sister, she falls silent and Christine tells the police that Leah is deaf and dumb. And then Leah doesn't say another word and the police take them away. Okay. So the mother and daughter have mortal stab wounds to the head and face. As I already said, the daughter has stab wounds to the butt and calves. The maid slashed the woman's faces open and then smashed their heads with a heavy pewter

pot. There was blood going up all the walls and both women had their eyes pulled out. What have we said? Leave the eyes alone. Leave them alone. But not these two. Their dresses. Were they alive when their eyes go?

Yes. Do you think they were alive when their eyes go? They were. Plucked? Yes. We'll hear about that later. Oh, no. I don't want details.

You're going to get them. Oh, shit. The dresses were, they're, both of their dresses were pulled up and their underwear were pulled down. That's weird. So they were exposed. But the experts in this documentary talked about how this was like one of those crime scenes that was from the beginning was compromised because the cops were walking through it.

They didn't know, even know they were walking through it, the locksmith walked through it. The crime scene photographer walked through it. And because of the time they pulled up the dresses, they pulled up the underwear and pulled down the dresses so that they could take the crime scene photo. They didn't leave it as it was. To be decent. Yes, exactly. So Christine, the older sister, the older maid, was questioned and she said that the

iron had broken the day before they had to have it fixed. So the iron broke again that day and they knew their mistress would be angry. I'm sorry, iron's fucking break, dude. Well, what's interesting and I wish there was more to be found out about what this family was actually like because it's one of those things where now they're dead and you can't know. Yeah. It was at this really intense, like hideous job.

Um, anyway, I mean, if you get mad at someone for something that they have absolutely no control over, like what else do you get pissed about? Right. Are you some kind of crazed monster, like mommy dearest type boss? Yeah. Um, so, uh, so Christine says that when Mrs. Law Salaw, uh, when she told Mrs. Law Salaw the iron was broken again, that, that her mistress set upon her. So, uh, as she saw her coming at her, Christine decided to leap at her face and tear her eyes

out with her fingers. Yeah. And then the daughter came in because she heard that going on. And as she heard that Christine yelled to Leah, tear her eyes out. Holy fuck. And then the, so Leah does it to the daughter. No. Yes.

Like both women are on their knees, like holding their eye and holding their faces. And that like, dude. And that's when they started, that's when they pick up the, they, they started hitting in the head with this pewter pot that was nearby. And then one of them went downstairs and got the other instrument. So they went to the kitchen and got a knife and a hammer and brought it back upstairs. Like the moment your eyes have been plucked out, you know, you have no hope. Like there's no, no, it's getting at it.

There's no, like they're not going to, like it's not going to be a fight and then they're going to walk away. Yeah. No, no. I mean, then, then they're helpless. Also, it's just so goddamn horrifying. You're starting, you're starting with the fucking, the death blow. Well, also who can do that?

Oh my God. Who can do that? I can't imagine it's easy. Like it's an easy thing to do. Like not even just, not even just the, I don't even mean like. Like either. I don't even like pulling someone's, I like the actual strength and like, exactly. What's it called?

Agility? No. Fortitude? Fortitude. And with your hands. Yes. Agility. I think you're like, I could be able to know how to do it.

Yeah. No, it's, and it's just the grossest. Like, yeah. Like a haunted house where like it's like cow eyeballs in a bowl or whatever. And like you don't even want to put your hand in what are basically grapes covered in, you know, whatever. Like they do stuff like that where it's just like, even just the feeling of it, much less yanking them out.

And the fact that they could both do it, like the sister was like, you do that too. And she wasn't like, no. Yeah. I'm just going to hit her. I'm on this. Okay. Uh, they swapped instruments several times. So they were both beating the shit out of both of them.

Oh my God. At the end of her testimony, Christine said, I have no regrets. You don't have one or two? I mean, it's okay. Oh, well, you can think about it for a little while. No, no, no. Even the eyes. No, no, no, no.

Nothing comes to mind. I feel good about all of it. Uh, and the thing that freaked the cops out were Lee's answers were exactly the same as Christine's. So they knew they weren't getting the full story because it was such a rehearsed story. Yeah. So, however, okay, go ahead. What?

Nothing. I mean, the fact that they're admitting to such horrifying things was like, well, what else is there that they're keeping from? Yeah. This isn't like the worst thing they could ever say. No, and it wasn't like they're trying to blame them. Right. They're, like, they're blaming them for being a bitch about the iron.

That's as bad as it got. Yeah. They weren't saying, will they beat us every single day or anything? We just snapped because they were so awful to it. You know, it's like, no, we fucking went after the balls or their eyes. We went for it. Okay. Jesus.

So they find out that the upbringing is basically they had an unhappy, parents who were unhappily married. The mother was thought to be very disturbed. They had an older sister who was sent to live at a Catholic orphanage who eventually became a nun and like moved away. Christine was sent to live with her aunt for the first seven years of her life and was supposed to be happy. Then Leah was born and both girls were sent to a Catholic orphanage by this mother.

So the mother was just like not handling anything. When she's 15, though, the mother takes Christine out of the orphanage and places her to work as a maid. So that's when she starts, she started working as a maid when she was 15 years old. And in 1926, in April of 1926, Christine starts working at the Lancelon's house. And then when Lee is old enough, she comes and joins her sister. So basically, Mrs. Lawslaw said to be a demanding mistress. She liked her house very clean.

The girls were up at seven o'clock every morning cooking, cleaning, going to the market. They worked 14 hour days. They had like an hour off here and there. They were free to leave the house or just go up to their room. But there's a lot of theories that this was basically that at this period of time, these were like, it was the bourgeoisie who were exploiting the working class. So it was like, I'll pay you a pittance, you're going to come, and you're just basically going to work for as long as I want you to.

You're available 24 hours a day. I mean, yeah, it wasn't like there were workers' rights back then. Exactly. It's kind of like how we are with Stephen. Do our bidding. Maybe I'll buy you a deltaca. Oh yes, Stephen, you owe her two bucks for that, for the number four combo. Okay, so both of those, both of the past sisters are found to be sane and they say their relationship

was not found to be suspect, but they were found in bed together kind of nude in a way. And they said, eventually it comes out that they were very close, quote unquote. One of the theories of why they pulled the women's eyes out was because Mrs. Lawson-Long caught the sisters having sex and speculation officer, speculation officer for sure. But they were saying because of how homosexuality was viewed at the time, yeah, that it would be such, it would, in and of itself would be taboo and then it's incestual. Maybe it wasn't her. I mean incestuous.

Maybe it wasn't her sister. You have to see these pictures because they look almost exactly alike. They have the same awesome French eyebrows, but they look, they're so frightening. They look like a picture out of, they look like the thing of like, you know, no one's lived in this house for 50 years. What do you mean you met the mistresses of the house? Yeah. She used to live here and then you're like, oh, that's the woman that shows up at night

in the hallway. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. So, so, so. Christine finally admits after being held in prison for five months, Christine finally admits it was her idea to murder the women.

Leah was just doing her bidding. So the trial was held in September of 1933, huge. This was like the trial of the century. This is in Le Mans, which is a small village. I don't know how. It's pronounced Worcester. What? It's pronounced Worcester.

Worcester. But like all the biggest newspapers in France go to it. It's packed. It's crazy. The sisters come in, they're both, they both look very sheepish and they whisper, you can barely hear them talking the whole time. And Christine admits to everything. There's no, they don't put up any kind of argument.

The prosecution psychologist attests there's nothing wrong with the sisters. There's nothing in their background to suggest there's anything abnormal about them psychologically. And Christine, they say Christine is of average intelligence and Leah is of low intelligence. But the defense psychologist has a different opinion. He brings up that there is almost no motive yet the brutality is beyond extreme. And he suggests there's a third person present at the murders, the combination of the personalities between Christine and Leah that they had because they were so close and they were the only person the other person had.

They had this kind of weird connection. They call it a folly adieu, which is when you hear about, you know, that story of those other two weird twins that ran into the freeway. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's those ones, and then there's another set of twins. They're black sisters, yes, who also had a similar who went to a mental institution was like, whoever dies first has to live a normal, the other has to live a normal life.

Exactly. So that they, they call that a folly adieu, which means that you're both, you're having a shared hallucination. And they, they also associate that with couple killers that basically you're living in this weird fantasy together outside of the realm of normal thinking. Wow. Oh, that's interesting. So they believe, they also, one of the, that's a defense psychologist suggests that they

were going through something called Hysteroepilepsy, which I didn't look up and it could directly impact my life. But it's basically like they were in a state that, that Christine was in a state and that Leah was just so under her sway that she would, she had no choice. How do you have like, is sustained epilepsy a thing? No, no, Hysteroepilepsy. Okay. So that's just like, they, they went hysterical that their, their brain like went great.

I'm not sure I should have looked it up to find out exactly what he meant. I want to guess. It's more fun. I mean, that's all we do. Yeah. But it's basically like they're in, they're in some kind of a hysterical state. Yeah. Okay.

I dig it. But the weird thing is it's like clearly something special is happening in this situation because it's not like they didn't jump at the women, beat them up, beat them up, hit them in the head once. Yeah. It wasn't like that. This is sustained extreme insane violence. Yeah.

This is like, yeah, dude, crazy. So basically the jury, the judge and jury find the both guilty Christina sentence to death because she basically comes forward and says it was my idea. She's ordered to be beheaded in the town square Lee in the city of Lamal. Leah is sentenced to 20 years hard labor and 10 years exile, which is kind of old fashioned fun. She was like, I don't want to be around you fuckers anyways. Well, fine, then go live on an island, which sounds great.

Christine's sentence has changed to a life sentence of hard labor. At some point someone comes in and says there was something else going on here and that the, you know, these psychologists didn't, they basically oversimplified the situation. Obviously something else was happening and can we at least get her, her sentence commuted to a life of hard labor or whatever, 20 years of hard labor. So they do, they go find Christine at this point. Christine has been brought to a mental institution. She's not talking.

She's not eating and she says that she deserves to die the way the jury found her to be guilty of that she deserves the charge. So she just stopped eating and she's basically wasting away when they give her the paperwork to sign, to say that instead of being sentenced to death and she gets 20 years hard labor or whatever, she won't sign it. And she just basically sits in silence, staring into space. They bring her sister to her. She doesn't acknowledge her or even act like she knows who she is.

And she eventually dies, sorry, I said that like Lizzie Cooperman dies. But her sister, Leah, adapts well to prison life and is released when she's 31 31. So she was, she's an old maid basically. And she died July 24th, 2001. No. Yeah. She just lived. She went back to wherever the mother lived and like started her life over and then just

kind of like lived. There is a documentary, I don't, I don't have the name of it, but if you find, if you look up all this stuff, obviously it's just a click away, if I can find it, you can find it. But there was a documentary, someone went and was like, there is a pump on sister left and they're like, we're going to go find her. And they find her in like an old folks home before she died in her 90s. How was your life? Yeah.

In her undies? In her 90s. Oh. So it's kind of a, and also there's a movie called sister, my sister is one movie. And there's also a bunch of plays, Jean-Paul Sartre and Jean Genet and all these writers of the time wrote a ton about it because it became this thing about like the working class and the exploitation of the workers and how unfair, you know, people with money were to the working class and that it was kind of a natural reaction.

Yeah. That's what they said. Like, oh dude, like this is what's going to happen if we keep fucking treating them like this. Yeah. That is crazy and so violent and gruesome. It's so violent and also so like they wanted to, they smashed their faces and they left their bodies like exposed, like it was so beyond.

And they didn't try to hide it. Right. And that to me is like, you know, when like someone tries to argue mental, that they were mentally ill, but they like tried to hide the murder, that's like, no, you weren't because you knew it was wrong and so you hid it and like they didn't do that, which says to me something about them not being mentally competent. They hid like children. Yeah.

Like they waited though. Yeah. They didn't run out of the house, which is just, they were on the stairs. Like they were right there. They should have and could have run out. Yeah. But instead they went to the room and locked the door and just like hung out. What happened to them in the orphanage?

Exactly. Something fucked. Well, fuck dude. What are their names again? Christine and Lea Pappin. Fuck dude. Thank you. No, thank you.

Thank us all. All right. Mine's fucked up. But you probably have heard of it, but I, but it's a good one and I really wanted to do it. So Karen. Yes. On the night of July 3rd, 1954, Dr. Sam Shepard.

Oh girl. Hey. Yes. A neurosurgeon and his wife, Marilyn, who was four months pregnant with their second kid, uh, they lived on a lake front home in Bay Village, Ohio, which is the suburb of Cleveland. Have you been to Cleveland? I've never been to Cleveland.

I don't think I have. We should do a show there. So they're watching a movie together. Sam Shepard falls asleep on the day bed in the living room and Marilyn tucks their seven year old son into bed and then she goes to sleep in their bedroom. And reportedly in the early morning hours, Sam says he woke up on the day bed to the cries of his wife screaming. He runs upstairs and he sees an intruder in the bedroom and he gets knocked unconscious.

Then he wakes up. He takes his wife's pulse and then he sees the intruder downstairs and chases him out. And they, they head down to the beach and there's a tussle and Sam Shepard's knocked unconscious unconscious again. And he wakes up. He's like half in the lake. His shirt's gone. His watch is gone.

He freaks out. He runs home, finds his wife in their bedroom, bludgeoned to death and she's on the bed. She'd been hit 35 times, 27 in her head. She had a broken nose. A shattered skull. There's gashes on her forehead and scalp, a fingernail. Oh, it gets torn off, which is always creeps me out. It's horrifying.

Two incisors are broken or ripped out where she either bit her attacker or was, you know, hit so hard that her teeth came out. There was evidence of a sexual assault only in that her pajama top had been pushed up around her neck and one of her pajama legs had been taken off and she was posed with her legs spread open, but there was no sign of sex or rape and her body was angled in this crazy way at the end of the bed where there was basically like a banister where it was like impossible to have raped her. So she was pulled down there to make it look like sexual assault, but it wasn't.

And the bedroom's covered in blood and there's blood throughout the house. So Sam Shepard, when he gets back from being unconscious on the beach, he doesn't call the cops. He tested Marilyn's pulse and then at 5.40 a.m. he calls his neighbors basically saying, I think they've killed Marilyn. So he calls his neighbors. The neighbors come over. I think one of them was the mayor of the town and they were over earlier that night for

dinner. They find Sam shirtless and his pants were wet with a blood stain on the knee and they, and he leaves them to go find Marilyn's body and then they call the cops. Mmm. You know what that makes me think of? Jambani. Exactly. Okay.

So he's taken to the hospital. He's examined by his brother. He's also a doctor. That shouldn't be allowed. Nope. And then a green duffel bag with some of the trinkets that are stolen from their house is found close by the house outside in the woods. And like weird stuff, you know, it looks like everyone knows what a staged robbery looks

like. It's, you know, drawers are pulled out, but neatly nothing of value is taken, even though things of value are spread out, that sort of thing. And so the police find inconsistencies with his story and they also think it's outlandish. So he's taken a trial on October 18th. It's my sister's birthday. Oh. It was in 1954 and prosecutors find out that Shepard had a three year long extramarital

affair with a nurse at the hospital where he worked at. It was ongoing. And they argue that the affair was his motive for killing his wife. So she's pregnant. Like he wants, he doesn't want this life anymore. That's their argument. And there were a lot of inconsistencies. One of which was that the family dog, and I think this is such a normal thing, was never

heard barking and it always barked at intruders. I feel like neighbors say that all the time. Also their seven year old son, Sam, was asleep in the other room during the whole thing and never woke up. And I was like, well, if she's screaming and he can hear her in the living room, then the kid woke up unless he doesn't remember it or unless they were fighting all the time. And so he never got out of bed for it. Or unless he's a heavy sleeper, like I'm a heavy sleeper and you can scream and I won't

hear it. Yeah. Unless my dog starts barking. That's so sharp. Yeah. And creating like jolting or whatever. But I think like as children, I don't know. Yeah.

They're hard sleepers. Yeah. Yeah. Other issues brought up at the trial was the fact that there was no sand in Sam Shepard's hair. Even though he claimed to be sprawled out on the beach, there was no sign on the beach of a life or death struggle. And where he'd claimed to tackle Marilyn's killer.

He's missing his t-shirts, which the prosecutors speculated would have had some of his Sam Shepard's should contain some blood from the alleged attack or struggle with the perpetrator. Also the blood, blood evidence was fucked up. So Sam Shepard had a watch on. And when the intruder first hit him, he still had the watch on and he said that he went and took his wife's pulse. The watch was found in the green duffel bag. So after they scuffle at the beach, the intruder supposedly took the watch.

Why did he take it after the second struggle? He had gone through Sam Shepard's wallet supposedly. So why didn't he take it after the first knockout if he's there for, you know, valuables? Also, so he took his wife's pulse and touched her face. What he said had happened. And he had no blood on his, his body at all. And he said he didn't clean himself. So he should have had a transfer of blood to his fingers.

He picked up the phone after and there's no blood on the phone, which is weird. So like, why is it so cleaned up? Uh, let's see, someone said that they got sick of me saying the other day. Was it me? Are you? No. So it doesn't matter. Oh, good call.

Okay. He says he didn't wash her clean up, but there was no, like, also, you know what? Let's listen to your fucking podcast and see what you say all the time and don't say. You'd be amazed at the things that you say and don't say when you talk for an extended period of time. Fair enough. All right. And all I did is lose my fucking place.

Also, now I'm yelling at you, you're yelling at them, but you're making eye contact with me. So I'm really mad at you. Why don't I turn it towards Steven? You're really, I'm really mad at. I'm triggered. Uh, okay, so, okay, so there also should have been sand from the beach in his wristwatch if they had actually fought at the beach where he took his fucking watch and their

fucking wasn't sand in the wristwatch. Yeah. Like if they were fighting on the beach, he knocks him unconscious and then steals his watch. There should be traces of sand in the watch. Yes or no. Well, here's the thing though. Every time I think of this, it's like, yes, except what are, is this a proven thing where

it happens every time? No, you're right. Except when you add all the other evidence in, it just kind of, you know, is like a, that looked filthy. What you're, oh, I didn't poke. I thought it was two fingers. No, it was just one, but also, and this is just from, I think I saw like two minutes of this story because I keep avoiding watching a thing on this story because I want to, I

want to watch the whole thing and I want to read the Aero Morris book, who Aero Morris is totally on Sam Shepard's side. This is such a, and I'm leaving out, I'm leaving out a lot of the evidence that people use to say he didn't do it because I don't believe that. This is such a Jack the Ripper scenario where there's so much evidence, but isn't there a thing where this was not a sandy beach? This isn't the beach. This is a small pebble rocky beach because this is Ohio, so it's like a lakefront beach.

It's not tiny sand. Well, what I love about this case and what I love about unsolved crimes is that that's a great argument and let's talk about that. And then I want to be like, okay, but what about this? And like, yeah, there's so many, and it's because it's so old too. There's no way for us to definitively, like we can't definitively say like, this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong. So he must not have done it.

Or if they saw it once they smelled a rat, they didn't care what size the sand was because they were like, here's what adds up and here's what we need to add up so we can get this guy. Well, that's a lot of people say is that they come to the conclusion and they find evidence to support their conclusion. And that's totally there. And there's also a guy working as like a carpenter on at their house. I didn't write about him.

He was obsessed with Marilyn, supposedly he turned, he ended up being a murderer and like was in taking advantage of women and was a rapist and like, there's all this shit that people are like, well, it was him clearly, but I feel like there's so much evidence that doesn't. Okay. I mean, seriously, it's like 1000 paths. Yeah. Also, I never knew he was having an affair with a nurse.

I didn't know she was pregnant. So the person he was having the affair with was pregnant. No, his wife was pregnant. Oh yeah. The wife. It's just such like that is such an obvious motive. Yes. I never knew there was another woman that's insane.

That's more of a, that makes more sense to me than a guy who they are familiar with breaking in when he knows that Sam is home. That doesn't make any fucking sense. If the person's, well, I'm going to get to that, but are the person's motive was robbery or rape? They wouldn't, they would know that Sam was home and they wouldn't have done it then. Well, and also if his motive was rape, then wouldn't he have gotten, wouldn't he have gotten away with a rape because if he's going to do all this other stuff and, and, and brutally

murder her? Yeah. I think the thing about that to me, which was, I'm not even sure what my point was there. I get it. What was most telling to me is that around her ankles were, was blood like drag marks that show that the person dragged her to the end of the bed to spread her legs apart. And there was no way he could have raped her because what's it called the banister, the bed frame, like a board, a foot board, bar banister was there.

Like he couldn't have gotten on top of her. And there were drag marks showing that he purposely put her in that position. And so like, why would he not have sexually assaulted her? That was, why would he break in to be, to Rob and then put her in that position without the intent of sexually assaulting her? Or why? Because he was a she because it was the other woman that broke in. No.

And, and went berserker and went crazy and was like filled with rage. And he had tried to break up with the other woman. He was like, my wife is pregnant. I can't do this with you anymore. Even though I promised you the moon and the stars were not doing this. And she went home one night and was just like, guess what, it's fatal attraction time. I would agree with that if the injuries weren't as brutal as they were. And she, who seemed like a badass, wasn't, couldn't fight back enough to have enough.

Like, I don't, the, the one who is pregnant, yeah, she, she wasn't a, yeah, the, the, the, the brutality of the murder was overkill. And I don't, it didn't seem like something that, you know, someone her equal would have been able to do. Oh, like, cause they, they would have had to really overpower her. She's overpowered. Now exhibit eight, the picture of the, the family I was just talking about when the, the past sisters who fucking decimated these two women.

I mean, if we're going to get sued, let's get fucking sued. Maybe it was a seven year old son, like let's get sued. My favorite murder, trying to get sued since 2017, trying to get sued since jump. We're in a new apartment and we're trying to get sued. Jesus Christ. It's the seven year old son. He's not a heavy sleeper. He went down to the beach.

She's a heavy hitter. He took all the sand out of the saw. There's watch. Oh no. Okay. This is the episode. Sorry. Just hate us.

Sorry. All right. You should be. I am genuinely sorry. Um, no, you shouldn't be ever on this podcast. This podcast is not a place for sorry's except for, sorry, sorry, sorry, which is not sorry. Okay. I'm going to fucking do it constantly now.

You motherfucker. Okay. There's no cut, cut to the tweet and it's from George's mother. I didn't even know you knew how to treat mom, tweet mom, you tweeted. Did you see a bunch of people looked at my dad's Twitter because he like tweeted something at me and I retweeted it and it's all just the whole, every single tweet is a tweet at me like being like, go Georgia, like that sounds fun. He does not tweet anything unless it's like supportive at me and people lost their minds.

Which is sweet. That's cute. Okay. So he had no blood on him. Despite the fact that they supposedly, you know, gotten to altercations twice, uh, there's should, and there should have been blood on his hands and fingers if they had actually fought and, um, wristwatch in the green bag, no sand, blood stains should have. Okay.

So there were blood spatters on the watch, but not stains. Oh, yeah. Um, okay. So there's this article on crime lab, crime library by Greg O McCrary, who was a former FBI profile who's like the dude who like knows some shit who like didn't come to a conclusion until he read everything. He wasn't bias. So he says that also important importance in analyzing this crime and crime scene is

to consider the amount of time it took for the offender to stage this scene. And I think this stuff is really interesting in an amount in like a matter of, uh, reading any crime in general, like any kind of these crimes. He says crime scenes are high risk environments and none more so than a homicide scene. Offenders typically spend no more time than necessary at a crime scene for fear of being interrupted or caught. Consequently, there's a high degree of correlation between the amount of time an offender spends at a crime scene and the offenders, familiarity and comfort, comfortability with that scene.

The more time an offender spends at a crime scene, the higher the probability that the offender is comfortable and familiar with that scene. Offenders who spend a great, a great deal of time at the crime scene often have a legitimate reason for being at the scene and therefore not worried about being interrupted or found at the scene. Your face, your face is pissed. No, no, no. I just, now I'm back to that.

The handyman. Oh, but why, but he's, he, he looks through a basic window and sees Sam Shepard sleeping on a couch in the house. Why risk that? Well, because then it's even more of a victory that it makes me think of like the East area rapist or whatever where it's like part of his attack was knowing that the husband was going to be humiliated and in total psychic emotional pain over what was going on. And maybe that was part of the risk and part of the high for him.

Okay. Especially because he was, had already been a rapist, which is fucking crazy. I don't know if he already was yet because I didn't look it up. Okay. Cause I am sold on this guy being on Sam Shepard being the murderer, but I, a lot of people are. Can be unsold very quickly. Okay.

Um, he says the offender will often, uh, manipulate the victims to scout. Oh, here's another. Okay. This is the Jambane thing. The offender will often manipulate the victim's discovery by a neighbor or family member. Um, so yeah, Jambane calling the Ramses calling their friend to come over and find the body as they did with their friend. What was his name?

Scout? The next or neighbor? Yeah. Yeah. So, so finding, letting someone else find the body to like almost be a witness as well is a fucking thing that they do. Yeah. All right.

So after deliberating for four days, the jury finds Shepard guilty of secondary murder. He sentenced to life in prison. Then on July 30th in 1961, good old Ashley Bailey. Oh yeah. That guy. Who was he played by in, uh, OJ, then the Simpsons? Um, Nathan Lane. Yes.

Yeah. So good. Amazing. So he takes over, which is like, Oh, everyone's fucked. Uh, he's chief counsel. So Bailey petitions for a writ of habeas, habeas corpus, something, and I wrote something we should ask guy random about. Isn't that produced the body?

No, I don't know. I was wrong recently. So I'm not going to, it is habeas corpus. I don't know. Stephen. Stephen. I, that's, we, we talked about it when on that episode produced the body. Okay.

By the United States District Court, I could, there, it could be a version of that. I'm wrong. You're probably right. Uh, who called the trial a mockery of justice and that Shepards, it shredded the 14th amendments of right to do process, which is a kind of fair. The fucking media was like all over the place. Um, it was a carnival atmosphere. The judge refused fucking Stephens pointing at carrot and shaking his head.

Correct. He, I'm the old winky, winky, wank, and then yep, you know what I'm saying, the old two fingers underneath. Uh, the old, uh, so Dr. Shocker said that the carnival atmosphere, no, no, don't look that up. Uh, he didn't, he refused to sequester the jury and told, and did not order them to ignore and disregard media reports of the case. And this was fucking next, like this is, this is basically the Simpsons of the sixties and

fifties. Like this was a huge trial because it's like, upstanding doctor in this nice fucking area whose parents were also like well to do and well known. Yep. And his wife gets brutally murdered. Sorry. Did you say this was 68? In 61 is when F. Lee Bailey took over the case.

Oh, so this is late fifties, early sixties. 54 is when the crime happened. Holy shit. Yeah. I thought it was, for some reason I thought it was like, I thought it was a man's sin. Yeah. Yeah. It somehow seems that way.

Yeah. It does. But I think it's when they were, it was still the like post war, like G golly, we're gonna fucking have a normal family and something as, you know, in the seventies, they were, you kind of, this happened a lot, but not here. Okay. So he, uh, okay, so Shepard served a 10 year, 10 years of his sentence and he gets released because F. Lee Bailey gets him out.

And when he gets released, he marries a woman named Adrienne Tabin, Tabin Jonas. She's a German woman. They had been corresponding during his imprisonment. You know, she was like, I saw this guy in the newspaper and he's hot. Yeah. This is just like out of nowhere. It doesn't matter, but I thought it was so interesting. So, uh, her half sister is the wife of Joseph, uh, Goebbels.

The Nazi propaganda. No. Uh, yep. Her half sister married like the, like number four Nazi, yep. Was married to him. What the fuck? I mean, I think he was killed in Nuremberg by then, but fuck, fuck, you know, like you're not like a chill person if your sister gets married to that half sister, whatever.

Let's, let's just, let's just guess that you're not like super open minded. Right. You can't, there's no way she was like a conscientious object during the fucking war. There's a, there is a percentage, but it is a 7% not when they, when their sister marries Joseph Goebbels, Goebbels, Goebbels, that's a heavy duty and not a good association. You know, that, that, that has nothing to do with the case. I just found it very interesting and there's another one of those two. The women in that family were into nuts.

Oh guys. You're right. That's like, that's called having a bad picker. Track record. Hello. Fucking psychopath. Cause those two sisters are like on their beds, on their stomach, but their feet up in the air, like, you know who I like.

They both have their prison photos of their husband. Isn't he dreamy? He's so dreamy. I've been to death. How many did your kill? Yours kill. Ariana. Mine kills all of them.

He just goes around with his side and his hood. Well, what did he kill them with? Cause mine used the lamp that was missing from the apartment house. All right. So this guy, who's the former FBI profile, Greg McCrary, he was involved as an expert witness for the third trial, which was a civil suit brought on by Sam Shepard Jr. in 1999. Oh, wow. Saying that his father had been wrongfully imprisoned.

Like he was suing them to be like... His dad was still in prison? No. Oh, okay. He was just trying to clear his dad's name. His dad died in 1970. I was going to... Got it.

Sorry. End with that. In 1999, the son who like clearly had some fucking Stockholm syndrome, am I wrong? Well, I mean... I mean, we're getting sued by him anyways. Let's fucking... Let's just really go for it. Yeah.

Seriously, if that happened and your father was like, believe me, I didn't do it as the child. It's like those girls in the staircase. As the child of that person, you're like, he absolutely didn't do it. I need to believe him. This is my last living parent. Something so horrifying happened to my mom. It can't be the worst thing, which is what everyone is saying it is.

It can't be that. Especially when... You know, since the 60s, you've been insisting it wasn't and you can't be like, I was wrong. I admitted it to him. And all of like popular culture is insisting that he was. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's just as much evidence that he did it as there is that he didn't do it.

This is definitely one of those... This is like a Jean Benet opinion case, there's no answer. So he loses that case. And so Greg McCrary says, when you look at the case closely and distill it to its essence, you can see that it's nothing more than a staged domestic homicide. And as for the murder weapon... That's sorry. That's that expert guy?

Yeah. Okay. He examined all the evidence and it's a really interesting crime library article about it. As for the murder weapon, because she got her fucking head bashed in, it's just a one small sentence note at the end of a police report saying that a small lampshade was found on a bookcase in a room on the second floor. That no lamp was found in the murder room, but Sam's notebook lay on the nightstand ready for late night calls.

So how would he have taken notes without any light? And also a local lamp fixer dude said that days before he had fixed and returned a lamp to their residents. And I'm guessing it wasn't found, but there's not a lot of information on that, but this dude said that. All right. So here's the other weird fucking, not happening to do with this, but... So Shepard's third wife, Colleen Strickland Shepard, is the daughter of a professional

wrestler. Oh. Ring it full circle in my relationship with Vince of the We Watch Wrestling podcast. So George Strickland introduced Shepard to professional wrestling and trained him to be a wrestler. He made his debut in August 1969 at the age of 45 as quote, killer Sam Shepard. What? Yeah.

I'm sorry. Yeah. What? I'm sorry. After he's out of jail. And he drew a huge crowd. I'm looking for Vince. Vince is, I said, Hey, do you know anything about this dude?

And he was like, here's this, like he just didn't care. Was he just broke and needed money or like... Yes. There's a really great episode of the Memory Palace, which is one of my favorite podcasts that has like this just quick, beautiful, the way he does, I think it's episode 86 about what his life might have been like at that point, which was he was broke. He was trying to have a private practice. No one wanted to go to him.

Oh, that's right. He married this woman whose dad was a professional wrestler and he drew huge crowds. Oh my God. I know. So, and his like, I think his dad committed suicide, his mom died, like all this crazy shit. So he, he was a wrestler for a short time. He wrestled over 40 matches and Vince says, I believe he came up with the mandible claw,

which was eventually made popular by mankind, Mick Foley, so my fair wrestlers, which is I love mankind. Do you? He's such a sweet angel. I saw that documentary about him knowing nothing about wrestling at all. And I was like, every time after that, I would just be like, what about mankind? Oh my God. I love him.

Mick Foley, angel baby. Love him. He's so sweet. And he has this crazy fucked up and in the, in the memory palace, he's like everyone who's watching him fight wonders if he's thinking about the night he fought his wife. Like it's crazy. Oh God. I know.

I didn't even think about that. That's why he got a big fucking crowd. Oh, that's so dark. So he wrestled over 40 matches before his death in April 1970 from liver failure. And we don't fucking know Georgia. That was so awesome. It was insane. Thank you.

There were so many things. Thank you. Now we have to read that book by Errol Morris because Errol Morris is convinced that it was, that he didn't do it, that the whole thing was like a setup and that the guy that wrote, wrote fatal vision whose name I can't remember basically exploited every tiny thing so that he could make money because he knew and see, I don't know the timeline, but basically that he was copying the guy that wrote the help wrote Helter Skelter and he wanted that Helter Skelter money.

And so he basically went in and made it seem like he was guilty, I guess, or that's that's the fucking owl versus staircase argument. You know what I mean? It's just this thing of like, you can be adamant about something and then there are these little pieces of evidence that you just can't explain away. So I don't, in the same way Jean Bonet, like I love the, I prefer the theory that it was in the family in the same way I prefer that Sam Shepard did it, but I would love to hear why he didn't and I'd love to hear the evidence that they didn't, but then I will always come

back with you, but with, to you with like, okay, but how do you explain that? You know, it's just, that's why I love cold cases. It's so much more, there's no period on it. Yeah. That's true. That's my idea. Like, it seems like he has this perfect storm of people in his life where everybody could be guilty.

Like what I would love to now know is the nurse that he was having the affair with, I would just love a, oh, yes, she did have a short stint, you know, after coming at somebody with a knife, she didn't kill her second and third husband, something like that where you're just like, now it's her, now it's her, now I never even thought of her. That's fun. I mean, it's not fucking fun, but it makes me think of that Harrison Ford movie. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, alert, alert, well, the fugitive, that was a TV show, right? That was made based on Sam Shepard.

And it was a Harrison Ford movie. It's one of the best movies really, you've never seen the fugitive. You better fucking see it when I leave tonight. Okay. They say that that clouded so many people's images because they don't remember what's from the fugitive and what's not. Yeah, that's right. It's so similar where it's a guy, that's a guy running because his wife is murdered

and he is so, looks so guilty that he knows he can only run and he's a doctor. Well, it's based on him. Well, so the other thing about it is that that, that evening, it was July 3rd. They had their neighbors over who ended up, you know, he called to come over and look at the body. They had them over for dinner that night and they said that they were loving and sweet and wonderful. And then Sam Shepard falls asleep on, like they see him fall asleep on the couch and

it's like, okay, is that legitimate? You can argue that they were in love still, or you could argue that they were, he was trying to get evidence that they were happy and normal and he was sleeping. And the, what makes me think it's that is that he was also fucking another woman. Yeah. So they're not happy and loving and everything's fine. And he falls asleep on the couch. He's fucking someone else at work and he needs them to see, have his fucking alibi.

Yeah. And maybe, maybe the wife is happy and loving cause she doesn't know about the other one. So she's having a totally different relationship and a different experience and he's this crazy mastermind. I remember also seeing something in the, whatever that like very short amount that I saw in the, in the, some documentary about it and then turned off. But one of the things was when he, they brought him into the hospital, like after, you know, he was, he was brought in and his brother examined him and all that kind of stuff, that

he was completely stone faced, emotionless, no matter who talked to him, he was not crying. He wasn't shaking. It was as if he was just kind of like there. Well, he could have been in shock. Now I'm arguing for him. No, I know. He could have just been in shock. He could have been in shock.

Well, the other thing is too, that they named all his injuries and ship, but they were on the left side of his body, which could either mean that the fucking killer was left handed or he just took his right hand and beat the shit out of himself with his right hand. What are the odds that you'd only have bruises on one side? Yeah. Unless. Unless his arm, the fucking, he bashes in his arm and he can only hit with his, I mean, it's so fun.

It's not fun. It's horrible. Marilyn fucking bless her soul. Well, I mean, it's the, it's the fact is horrifying, the theorizing and the possibility because these are people's real lives. Like, of course, aside from the victims, there's the possibility of another victim, which is this doctor who people are, you can see it either way. Like the victim of circumstance, which is the most romantic.

I mean, there was a TV show on for what, 10 years or however long that show was on. And that movie, I still can't believe you haven't seen it. It's truly one of the best movies there is. I'm going to watch it as soon as. It's so great. Yeah, I mean, there has to be a couple of these people who are found guilty or who we all think are guilty that we're fucking not and we'll, and there's still a hundred pieces of evidence that I could argue that makes them look guilty.

Yeah. And those, that sucks. And we just never know who those people are unless DNA comes along and exonerates them. Some kind of weird, like we grabbed the air in the room and that somehow in the future proves this or that. From future air, my air DNA theory, dude, I love it, but it's, it's exactly like the beginning of Shawshank redemption where it's like, yes, he was drunk, yes, he was angry at his wife.

Yes, she was having an affair. He still didn't kill her, but he goes to jail for it and he couldn't look guiltier and there's nothing he can do. And it's just that kind of like it, it does happen. I've thought about that, like with Vince of like, I almost, I don't know what happened. I also dropped something on my head the other day and I was like, Vince is sitting here with me. Like, I wonder who wouldn't believe him that he said that I fucking dropped something on

my stupid head. Yeah. On your own head. On my own stupid head. Right. And like. Except for he can't because you've talked so much about thinking he might kill you. You've actually made your own like insurance that he, that he will be arrested and prosecuted.

I will be the first one to ring the doorbell. I'll be like, dude, I'm so sorry, but I simply must. You're under arrest. You're under citizens arrest. Citizens arrest. You're under cast arrest. Vince has, I just want to clarify, Vince has never done anything to me or at me or near me.

This is one of Vince's, the guy who, this is basic. This is basic anytime or anywhere. You guys came to my rap party the other night. You were my guests at my rap party and Vince is like, as you and I are hot gossing, Vince is like, what can I get you? I know. We just walked in. I mean, you guys have just walked in.

You need another, do you need another diet cut like he's just, he's the greatest. So it would be such a turn if he killed you. It would be funny. It's the perfect, he's building the perfect. I mean, I would be surprised, you know, it's not like it's like, oh yeah, because he's been beating me for you. It's like, what? I would be like, whoa.

In that last moment, you're like, you know what, I got to give this up to you. Go ahead. And he's like, she didn't fight. You earn this. She laughed. Cause she's a monster. Oh my God. This is such a horrible conversation.

This is one of the greatest ladies and gentlemen. Oh, are they? Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye. Elvis. You want a cookie? Oh yeah.

You do? He does. Cookie. Bye.