My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 58 - Some Quiet Sunday

Episode Date: March 2, 2017

What a huge goddamn relief, it's a new My Favorite Murder! This week Karen and Georgia talk about the folie à deux of the Eriksson twins and the crimes of Mel Ignatow. Plus a hometown murder from comedian Kurt Braunohler.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Welcome to my favorite murder. Hi, welcome to my favorite murder. Hello. Welcome to my favorite murder. Hello. Hello. Gotta learn how to start this thing someday. What was wrong with that? Really creepy, unnatural speaking voice. It was too light. It was kind of like when someone says they'll scratch your back, but then they kind of just lightly drag their hand across your back. No, don't touch me. What is worse than that? You know what's worse than that is when those blankets

that when your heel, it's like your heel's a little dry and it rubs like rubs across those like woolly blankets or like gets caught on a cuticle. Like you're a fucking goat. Like you're so not, you're so disgusting that like blankets are like... Here's how long it's been since you fucking taken care of yourself. Hey, Ms. Havisham, why don't you fucking soak these feet? Yeah, but also... You know what's worse? What? When a guy puts his head on your shoulder. Why? Are you serious? Don't you... Isn't that the grossest thing of all time? I don't understand that one. I don't know. I just hate it. Wow, that was so amazing. I really thought you were gonna be with me on that one. But I don't know. I don't get it. I don't know. It's like to be cute or

something. Where it's like, can you not be precious? Like a guy doing that is like... Because you also like a masculine dude who takes care of you. And a guy who fucking puts his head on your stupid shoulder is like... I mean, it's just a little like... They might as well also kick their outside leg up. Wouldn't they kiss you? And like pull their skirt out a little bit. What the hell? I'm fine with that. But you know, it's even grosser when you don't have a garbage disposal and you have to take the food out of the fucking... The wet food, out of the drain of the sink. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm serious. That's how it feels to be abandoned. No, it just made me like... Wait, did you have to do that by hand and then throw it in the garbage?

Yes, and it makes me sick to my stomach. How old is the food? Days? Weeks? No, it's just like you just did the dishes. Okay, but you don't... And it's like food from your mouth. You're not a soaker though, because I'll go ahead and I'll soak some dishes for a good two weeks. Never do that where you're like, I'm cleaning them by letting them sit in the sink with soapy water in them. Yeah, I'll put some cold water in a bowl of like yogurt and that's never gonna work. It's always yogurt! Or like cereal and it's like, it's still gonna get stuck to the bowl every time. Like the thing that we yell on my house is, put water in it. It's like nobody... Nobody knows. We've lived in that house. I lived there for 16 years and the dishwasher never worked a day, a single day, but I lived there.

Where? In the... Not the other apartment. In the house I grew up in. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you always had to do everything by hand. Yeah. And so when people would almost willfully, ignorantly leave a bowl of cereal in the sink, knowing full well it was just going to then be cemented onto the side of that bowl. Right. And you'd get yelled at and have to do it. Yeah. And then you'd have to take your fucking hand and take all the wet food out. Wait, you have a garbage disposal now, don't you? Now I do, yeah. Like that's... Yeah, now I do now. You must run that thing all day long. Oh, love it. Just for no reason. On, all day. Just creating kind of a nice white noise in the background. It's so comforting. You know what I hate? Tell me. Is when you're like taking a shower

and you're just like, oh, it's so great to get clean and you look down there. There's like straight up black mold in your shower or something like where you... The thing of like, you don't notice how filthy you are until you look at one thing and then you're like, oh my God. Yeah. That's not like grout. That's not black grout. The grout is white. If someone else saw this who was a clean person. Yes. Well, right now in my shower, I hope you didn't see that when you just peed is that like there's leg shavings everywhere. Cause I just now, like this is the first time I've had a white shower. Yep. Cause our last one was like gray and pink, like vintage gray and pink. Sure. And you can't see that shit on gray. No. But now it's all white. Now you have to look at your own body.

Leg shavings. Offerings. I wonder if Vince notices this too. I mean, he must be into it. My sister, when she came down with, cause she is a super clean type A type person and I am not. My sister got crazy bummed because the, I have that the drain in my bathtub. Your hair gets caught in it. It gets caught. There's no like secondary screen. I've been able to find cause it's just, there isn't one. So it's always backing up. And my sister was so bummed at the amount of water cause it was like, yeah. And then I was just like, oh, you're right. That is gross, but I've never noticed. It's just how it is. Like standing water. Standing water. I don't like that either. Because then it is gross. It's gross. And then the, the leg shavings are like getting

attached to your ankles. That's right. And also they stay when the rest of it drains cause it drains so slow. Yeah. Then it creates its own kind of like, it looks like a map, like a topological map of a river basin. Look at you. Look at yourself. Look at you. Can I bring this back around? Sure. However, it does make your feet nice and soft on their soaking in the water there. It sure does. And then they won't rub on a blanket and make you like shit about your life. Anyways, that's been my favorite murder. Can you imagine someone who's listening for the first time? They're like, what the fuck? They're just like, um, I saw this, um, I came in here for decapitated head. This was on a murder list and it certainly is no murder. This is my favorite murder. Really quick. One

time my dad said to me, he came down to visit me and then my, like the thing broke in my toilet. He had to go in and fix the stopper, whatever it is. No, I hate that. And while we were standing in there, he goes, Hey, why don't you spend some quiet Sunday cleaning behind this toilet? Holy shit. And the level of total disgust that he said it with, I think of it every time I'm in the bathroom bar myself. That is an extra level of con of being condescending. He couldn't just say, Hey, you should clean the back of your toilet. Oh no, it always has to be like a one man show in our family. Take a quiet, spend some quiet Sunday. Wow. Cleaning behind this toilet. I don't know, dad, because I'm busy going to therapy to get over you or maybe cause I just party. Yeah. I'm

too. I'm like, I like love, I love to be outside where the toilet isn't. Yeah. Cause I have friends. I don't like the toilet as much as you do to add. What am I saying? Cause it's not as, cause you know what's important to me dad? Living my life, living my life. And if that means having a filthy toilet, so be it. So be it. You know whose problem that isn't? Mine. Mine. Welcome to my favorite murder. It's a murder podcast for murder, murder aficionados. Only murder. People are into murder. So much murder and crime. God that we're all about it. Justice. Oh, that's us. Totally. America. America. Uh, that's Karen Kilgarov. That's Georgia Hardstark. Hi. We're here to host this show. And sometimes we talk about, uh, personal stuff.

We do. Totally. I don't know if you, was that even personal? That was just like, I don't know, every day. Um, I met a guy today who works in a morgue. He's going to work in a morgue and is going to morgue person school. Yes. We went to lunch today and I got so excited. I had this incredible therapy appointment that like made life sunnier. Then I go to this, to the restaurant that we're going to meet at. It's Jones on third. And it's not like we go there every day. It doesn't matter. Great. Everybody goes there. It's a great place to eat in studio city. Well, the guy is ringing me up for my coffee was like, how's your day going? And I'm like, good. Thanks. How's yours? And he's like, great. I had a job interview. I'm like, Oh, Jesus fucking guy is talking to me now. I'm like,

Oh, you're like being polite. Oh, what was it for? And then he was like, Oh, at the LA County morgue. And I was like, what? What the fuck? Do you think he knew? No. Oh, I love that so much. He just told like, he didn't know how I would react. And of course, I grabbed him by the arm. Did you really ask across the counter? Oh my God. Tell me everything. And he was like, Oh, you know, blobby blog, I'm going to school to be a mortuary, more, more, more, something like that. And exactly. Exactly. I was like, that's amazing. You're on the right. The LA is going to be incredible. And he's like, I know the murder. Well, I said the I said, this is LA is going to be a great place to do that. And he said, I know the murder count just keeps going up. That's right. He said that.

And then I turned around and this girl came up to me and was like, Hi, I really like the podcast. This is weird. My grandfather is a serial killer. No, literally moments later. Okay. That's when I walked in. Yeah. Okay. So I have the bad habit of my sunglasses are also prescription. So when I come in from outside and my sunglasses are always on my head, which means I can't see. I always forget that you can't see anything. Yeah, I can't see. Well, like, I can't see past like a couple feet in front of you. So like, and it helps me because walking into a place like that. Jones on third is very like C and B scene type of place. And I always get real insecure, whatever. So I'm like, Oh, good, better that I don't have a glasses on except for reading menus and seeing where Georgia

sitting and all the things that actually involve meeting someone. I saw you, but I was in the middle of this discussion with this girl, Anna, but also I didn't realize like I wouldn't, I thought you'd be sitting by yourself. So when I, when I, when this kind of one blurry figure waved an arm, I was like, what the hell's going on that I have to go over here now. And I walk up and Georgia is in full on like, kind of don't interrupt us conversation. No, what I was saying is don't tell Karen, don't tell Karen, don't tell Karen when she walks over. Yeah. So wait, you're gonna tell me right now. Yeah, he was a fucking serial killer. He's in prison. He was like the sheriff in Bakersfield and he was killing sex workers. No, she didn't know till she was older. And then

she saw an episode of like forensic files and was like, that's my grandfather. Like she was new, he was in prison, but didn't know what the deal is. Hold on. I know. Was that in like the 80s or 90s? She was like 11, I guess. And she looked in her early 20s. Yeah, she was pretty young. Yeah. That is so intense. I know. So I was like, this is Anna. Bye. Bye, Anna. I was like, get out, Anna. Get out, Anna. Because I can't keep a secret. I'm like, not good at that. So I didn't want to be like, telling you. That's so good. Her name is nice goats on Twitter. Nice goats. His name is David Keith Rogers. She said her grandmother wrote him a letter every single day, called him every Sunday, despite the fact that he was a serial killer. Denial. Denial. That's some serious

denial. She's like, that's not the man I married. No. Well, talk about living a double life. He's the sheriff. And he's, that is a nightmare. That's, that's like, that's this true detective. Yeah. Season. All of them. Never. Because it'll never happen. Can I, can I say one other thing? Yes. That I love? Yes. I'm listening to another new podcast that I finished within a couple days, as I do, called In the Dark, the Jacob Wetterling one. Oh, no, I haven't, I haven't heard it. Well, I didn't, I was like, Jacob Wetterling, everyone knows what happened with him. He's a kid who got kidnapped, you know, in Minnesota and they in eighties, whatever. And I was like, I'll just listen to an episode. It is fucking enthralling. It is one of the best fucking investigative

journalists, dick podcast, these things I've ever listened to. I gotta listen to it. Incredible. And it's not about Jacob Wetterling. It's about everything that went wrong in. It's like, it is a fucking hard look at law enforcement and how they mishandled the entire fucking case and how it fueled stranger danger and the sex offender registries and is that the right thing to do? And like, it's, and then they just solved the case like a week before they were going to put the podcast out. Whoa. So they like tie all this shit into it. Wow. Oh, I gotta listen to that. Madeleine Barron is the host. I love that it's all these fucking badass women who are hosting these incredible investigative journalism. So in the dark, it's called in the dark, in the dark.

Uh, fucking, I could not stop listening to it. Oh, I love that. I actually just thought of this too, because I just watched of, um, if nobody, if you're not watching Vanity Fair Confidential, which is a series, um, honest place. What? Which part do you not know? I'm just trying to think of where it is, but it might be investigation discovery or something. It doesn't matter. You can just put it in, but it's, they have, they basically go over stories that have been in Vanity Fair, which is a magazine that's existed for like 70 plus years, maybe longer. It does great art, great investigative journalism. Yeah. Yeah. And the one that I watched yesterday was about this couple, which was basically about satanic panic and that weird thing that happened

in the eighties where all of a sudden it was like at the McMartin, um, preschool preschool case. And then there was this other one that happened to these people in Austin, Texas, and they just got out of jail and they still haven't been exonerated. Are you fucking kidding me? They're just, they were just released of like the, it's basically what you were just talking about where back then when they knew nothing about how leading, how, how much you could screw up an interview with a four year old or a three year old, how easy it is to get that child to say exactly what you want them to say. Totally. And that's how all those things exploded. That's why it happened all at the same time. That's amazing. That, that shit, that is what fucking happens in

this podcast. And it is incredible how it's so terrifying. Like I have to listen to a positive book now because I'm so fucked up over it. Yeah. Oh, I gotta listen to that. Um, and Vanity Fair Confidential, what's cool is that they take those articles and they interview, like the main narrator interviewer guy is the person, is the person who wrote that article. Yes. I love that. And then other, um, then the police that were there and the other family members and stuff, they've been the last couple that I've watched have been so good. It's just like, it's a really well done series. I haven't watched it in a while. I'm going to check it out. Yeah, it's good. Um, cool. Um, also, did you see the thing someone tweeted at us or it was somewhere

like, I think it was on her Facebook about the windshield wiper shirt? Yes. Trick? Yes. Is that, do you think that's true? Probably. I mean, it could have like its sources in some once true thing, but I like the idea that people, um, spread that around. Me too. Because I think it's that thing of just like eyes open, eyes open and don't like, so basically what it was is there was a picture, um, I think it was either on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, but it's like a girl, there's a shirt wrapped around her windshield wiper. And then when she gets out to take it off, there's people there that are like to grab her because she's out of her car. Right. They get, you get in your car at night, you're being very careful in this built in the structure.

And then, oh, shit, there's something on my windshield. I better get out and take it off. Yeah. And then that's like, that's when your guard is down. Yes. So it's just the idea. And that thing spread like wildfire. Yeah. I saw that on a couple different places. Yeah. I was like, this sounds, this sounds like, you know, and his hook was in the back of, was in the car or whatever the back door. But it is, yeah, it is a good kind of reminder to pay attention. Yes. It only takes one thing like that. And also you have to think, um, if you're like, you should think of your car as like the safe zone. So like, once you're in there and you've locked that door, you're good to go. So if you can drive with a shirt on your windshield wiper, get the fuck out of there.

And that's what the girl said she did is she fucking knew something was wrong. She saw a car idling supposedly, you know, and then so she fucking drove away. And when she was alone and safe, she fucking got out and pulled the thing off. She's like, it didn't make sense that it was wrapped around my windshield. Right. Yeah, it doesn't, because it's not like, oh, it dropped from, you know, it blew onto my windshield or whatever it's, if it's wrapped, she was basically taking her context clues and going, this is a red flag situation. Betcha this fictitious, fictitious characters and murdering. Um, what else? I mean, what do we, do we have anything to report back from? And I would just say this, because we haven't recorded since our tour. Right. We last episode

was our, uh, where were we? Our Oakland show. The last episode we, we put on this podcast was the Oakland show. This podcast, this one right now was live Oakland. Um, after live Oakland, we met a bunch of great people. And the first person we met was a girl who made us some amazing stuff. I don't have her card or anything, but did you see in that bag? And I'm not sure if you went through it. So I got a tote bag that said, um, my dogs are fiercely private. Oh, and she got me a bag that had a fucking adorable Siamese cat on it that I'm totally using all the time now. Yep. And, uh, also, um, I think handmade, I don't know if she bought them or she designed them herself. Um, but I feel like she made them the barb notebook. Did you get a barb notebook? Yes.

Yes. I think that's her drawing. That is amazing. Um, so we just want, we had a fun conversation with you. She was very excited and, uh, we just wanted to say it was just as fun for us to meet you as, uh, as it was for you to meet us. Cause she was, um, she was, she was very sweet and very excited. Everyone's been, we're so lucky. Yes. We get lots of nice presents and it's funny. And also in Oakland, uh, most of my family was there. My cousin Stevie, who's basically like my older brother, um, who beat me up my whole childhood and then became a super cool friend. And now is basically like my sister and my sister's family and his family like do everything together. And it's really awesome. Cause that's the way we all grew up together. It's like the next generation. Um,

I heard the rumor that he was crying during our show because he was so proud, uh, and like blown away. Like basically all of my family was like, Oh, we had no idea that this is what you were doing. That's amazing. Yeah. So it was super fun. Well, Marty fucking hard stark is going to be at our beacon, our New York beacon show this fucking weekend. And I have no idea how he's going to react. Please New York, help us impress Marty hard stark. He needs to understand that his, his daughter has done a good job. You'll know him by the fact that he's the only grown man alone there. That's not true. We're in Seattle. Remember the guy that made us the macarons? Oh yeah. He like had taken Stephen, he had taken a cooking class. He had made macarons

that had, they were pink with red bloods batter on them, put them in a Tupperware and brought them to the show. And we knew they weren't poisonous because a girl in line behind us, him had eaten them. She was like, they were great. And they're like, how do you feel? Are you feeling okay? She's like, I'm fine. You're like our tester. I love macarons. Um, and I got Ted Bundy cookies. Oh my God. Oh shit. Wow. I just said the wrong word. Oh Jesus. Did you see that Elvis just came out of his little cat house? Okay. Cause I said the word cookie. Holy shit. He's going to have to get one early. He is a monster. He's, he, we've made a monster. Um, Sawd House Bakery in Seattle are the ones that made us, I tweeted those. Yeah. They're on our, my favorite murder Instagram

too. Unbelievable Ted Bundy. And I would just like to make, point out the fact that, um, it turns into a thing where it looks like, Oh, we loved Ted Bundy in no way. It's like, it's the story we're telling. And it's, it's the crime. I'm not saying to you. I'm just saying in general, when on the podcast, people are like, it sounds like we're cheering. It's not about Ted Bundy. It's the fascination of the story. And yeah. And the crime and the, the fact that that exists and the icing and the fucking, that was an amazing cookie. It was like a brown sugar cookie. It was crazy. It was really good. Beautiful art and the shape of Washington. Washington probably cause we're in Seattle. It was the shape of Washington. We are

the best people. We are the, can I talk about how I took a bite out of it to take a photo and like, like it seemed obvious that it was a cookie. And then I said, uh, look, I took a bite out of the crime and then I fucking laughed my ass off of my own fucking stupid joke. God, it gets lonely in that dressing room. It's quiet. We don't have groupies. And we, that's the place where I put on a record and it was a some lame 80, not lame. There were some good songs on it, but that was an 80s compilation and a stick song came on and it was dead silent. Me and Georgia are like looking down at our murders or whatever, like getting ready. And then she goes, Oh my God, what is this? She's not even a good singer. And I am still laughing about that. Very enjoyable. I didn't

know a six. Um, you look like it's your turn to go first. Is it? I don't know. You were, you looked like you were ready and I was like, Oh, she knows. Well, then I'm interpreting from that. You would like me to go. Oh, I don't care. I don't want to fuck it up. I bet Steven knows. Well, we fucked it up going live. Oh, Steven, do you know? No. Did you see him pick up his finger? Like he was trying to shush us. He was, no, I think it was like trying to remember and I was just like, and you brought the microphone up so perfectly. Like, I'm about to tell you. Well, I also was like, does it count from the Oakland episode? Or do you count the other live episodes in terms of? Oh, no, then it's me because I think Oakland Oakland. So it is me. Okay. All right.

Whatever. Well, this is now I'm afraid because I'm 99% positive you haven't done this murder, but truly as I was printing it up and leaving my house, I was like, it's so familiar. And I know that I've done research on it before thinking I would do it before. Well, I've had to think about looking up murders before being like, have I done it before? Not just you. Okay. So I think. So you won't be mad if this is a repeat. Only if you do it better than I did. Well, I'm pretty sure you didn't, but I know we've talked about it. Okay, I'm excited. And the reason that I wanted to do it is because I mentioned it the last. Just pick the biggest one. Sorry, like in your face. No problem. Okay. The last, I think the last studio recording that we did when I talked about the

sisters, the French maids that killed apartment. Yes, this podcasting studio. So it's another case of folly adieu, which is the shared psychosis. And it's the story of Ursula and Sabina Erickson. I've not done it. We talked about it. Yes. Bucking. I'm excited about this. Okay. Good. All right. What a huge goddamn relief because I was truly like, I was like, I'm printing it. I don't, this is what I've done. Like I can't go back from here. What if that's like my trigger? And then I'm like, this is over. I can't believe you don't remember. I was, I cried that episode. Yeah, it meant a lot to me too. Anyway. Okay. Um, all right. Okay. So, um, looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning,

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It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder20 with code murder20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily,

I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. In that, sorry, if you didn't hear that episode. So, a folio is in French, it translates as the madness of two and it's a form of shared psychosis between two people who are extremely close. The past sisters were an older and younger sister. It is rumored that they were having a sexual

relationship but they did work for a rumor to be very strict mistress who they killed so violently that it beats most of the crimes we talk about modern day. It really, it doesn't, it doesn't fit with what, you know what I mean? I'm not matching the punishment and all this. Yes, it's such extreme overkill that it's not so bizarre. Totally. So, this is a little bit different but this I feel like is the much more famous version of this shared psychosis and it is Ursula and Sabina Ericsson. So, in May of 2008, two Swedish sisters who live in Ireland who are in their late 30s named Ursula and Sabina Ericsson, twin sisters, that should be in there, they are twin sisters and they live in County Cork

and they've traveled to, they're traveling to London but they've taken, they're in Liverpool when this all goes down, taking the bus into London or the right outside Liverpool I guess. So, when they first arrive in Liverpool or wherever they are nearby it, the first thing they do is they walk into the St Anne Street police station and quote unquote report concerns about Sabine's children. So, from the get go of their like trip to London, there's shit going on. They immediately go and start talking to the police, nothing comes of it. They, then they get on this bus, the National Express coach into London. After a little while on the bus, they tell the driver they don't feel well, he pulls over to the roadside services

and they get off the bus. When they try to get back on the bus, they are clutching these bags that they have with them in a way that makes the driver suspicious. So, he says we need to look in your bags before you get back on the bus and they're like no fucking way. And they're so weird about not letting anybody look into their bags that the bus driver kicks them off the bus and leaves them there. Fucking hero. Oh wait, that's kind of shitty. Don't leave women on the side of the road. Well, but I mean like, so the second I hear this, I'm like what is in those bags? Totally. I need to know what's in those bags immediately. Oh, yes, I'm imagining lots. Right. So, so the gas station manager where they have stopped at these, what they call services

in England is informed by this bus driver. These two are acting weird and shady. And so I'm not letting them back on the bus. So that gas station manager calls the police. They come and talk to Ursula and Sabine decide they're harmless and leave. So now Ursula and Sabine are stranded by the M6, which is a freeway in England, and not the TV show MI6, which I thought I was thinking of the whole time I first started researching this. Have you ever watched MI6 with Matthew McFadden, who is Mr. Darcy? Richard Armit. Anyway, I'm sorry. Good stuff. Good stuff. Good British procedural. Good talk. But there's an M6 and then there's an MI6. Okay. They're not the same thing, Karen. Okay. So they're stranded and the next thing that they know is that there's CCTV footage

of them walking down the central part of the freeway. So they have run across... The center median. Yes. They've run across the freeway. So you can see that here's the insane part of all this. There is video footage of this entire incident. I've seen it and it's like whenever there's CCTV footage, I'm like, don't want to watch this. Something awful is going to happen. Yes. That's bad too. But there was also basically a British version of COPS, which was called Motorway. Yes. Motorway COPS, which was a reality show that they were filming when this happened. So the entire thing is caught on an ENG crew footage. Yes. Like a TV show. That's why there's so much... Like you can see all of it. That's illegal. It's super crazy. Yeah. Cause did they

sign waivers? Totally. There must be because they broke the law. They must have to or something. Sure. So basically here's what... Or maybe they have different rules there of production. All right. Here's what happened. They're in the central median and they run to cross it again. Don't cross the fucking freeway. Ursula gets across, but Sabina gets hit by a car. Oh my God. So they call the highway agency traffic officers, which I imagine is like the highway patrol. Sure. But I don't know and I didn't look it up. I wrote this horrible thing. So when highway agency traffic officers, what I can only imagine are the British highway patrols. So British chips, which in America are crisps. Oh my God. But in England are french fries.

That's... I love where you went with that. That was unexpected. So dumb. So dumb. So like fish and chips. What if like fish and... What if there was like a cop show that the cops were British and there was a guy named like Andy Fish. And so it's like fish and chips. Can someone please make a fucking... We'll be the chips. So Karen and I... Andy Fish is a British detective that's come to Los Angeles and then... He needs the help of two girl podcasters. Chips. We're the chips though. Oh, because we're British cops. We are? Well, because we have... Oh, no, no, we're chips. We're highway patrols. Yeah, we're highway patrol. Right. All right. Oh, what? Fish could be the band. Fish. Fish, the band fish. Fish and chips. Leads, cops, like they're undercover,

narcs. Yes. And they go to their shows. They narc on people at their own shows. Yes. They're pot cops. Yeah. Guys, here's the thing. Oh my God. So that basically the British highway patrol shows up with this British reality show called Motorway Cops. Fuck you. They're already recording it. That's so shitty. No, no, no, they didn't know what the scenario was. They showed up on the scene like, well, this is a day in the life of these cops. Okay. Yeah, it's like that. Okay. So as they... So the two twin women are standing on the side of the road, talking to these cops, and the guys that were there first on the scene first are explaining to the British police who showed up with the camera crew. They're like, okay, so here's what happened. I guess they ran

across the freeway. We don't really know what they're doing. One of them got hit, but she's okay. And blah, blah, blah. And they're explaining everything. And the two women are standing there while the cops are talking to each other. And then as the cameras rolling, Ursula bolts out into the freeway and immediately gets hit by a truck. And it is on... The truck is going 56 miles an hour. It's on camera. It doesn't... There's somebody that's kind of blocking it, so you don't see like the real awful part, but... And to make it clear, she's not running, trying to cross. She's running to get hit by a car. Well, there's no... It's just like that fucked up part in Bowfinger where Eddie Murphy has to run across the freeway for the special effect. Do you remember that?

You don't. Well, here's the thing. It's not like Frogger words, like one coming every couple of seconds. It's like running into onto the five right now. Like there's no pause in the traffic. No. Right. So she ran out onto a busy freeway intentionally. And she does it and everybody's like, it's really upsetting because it's all the cops going like, whoa, oh my God, whatever. And they're immediately onto their things calling for an ambulance doing this. And while they're doing that and one of them runs out to stop traffic, whatever, while they do that, then Sabine runs out into the freeway. Fuck, dude. Because they're... So it's the craziest thing to see because nobody, of course, once the one goes, nobody goes, oh, make sure the other one doesn't go. They all go,

holy shit, call an ambulance. You would never... Yeah. Who would do that? So Ursula's legs. So Sabine runs out into freeway and immediately gets hit by a Volkswagen Polo, which we don't have. People driving those fucking cars. Yes. You've ruined their life. I mean, I'm just... The lorry driver, the truck driver that hit Ursula is on this. You can see the video footage and it's the saddest thing because he just keeps going, she just thrown out in front of us. That's not the accent, but it's something like that where he says us instead of me. It's rough and he's just like kind of staring off like in total shock. Oh my God. But here's the thing. So Ursula's legs, she has compound fractures in her legs. The cop I saw special on it and it's called like madness on the motorway or something

like that, but it's really good, but it's not as good as fish and chips. It is no fish and chips. Never. Never. She is down and this is so upsetting because bones are sticking out of her legs. No, no, no. Yeah. You're not going to get hit by a truck on the freeway and have it not be really gross and upsetting. But meanwhile, she's down, right? So the bottom half of her body is not moving and it's fucked up badly, but the top half of her, they go and they put one of those tin foil marathon blankets on her and they're like trying to talk to her. It's basically like the ambulance is going to be here. You're okay. And she starts going, I know who you are. I know who you are. And they're like, just take it easy. It's okay. She says, I recognize you. I know you're

not real. Oh my God. And the police are just saying it's okay. Stay down. She's trying to get up. So it looks like a really hideous part of like walking dead where like the zombies been like attacked from the back, but they're still dragging themselves. Like she's trying to push herself up, but her legs aren't going to move. And she's trying to like fight him. She's spitting at him. So scary. Yeah, she's freaking out. So her sister is so that's Ursula. Sabina is also on the ground and she looks like she's out out. And there it's there's a female cop next to her. And I think the second person is a woman who was maybe a passerby in a car. I'm not sure. But they're both sitting there and they're like, she's got one of those tin foil blankets on her and she and

and Sabine is just eyes closed out. And then she comes to and she like almost like immediately gets up and they're like, no, no, no, don't move, don't move. And she's clearly like dazed. But she starts saying they're going to steal your organs. She's yelling that over to Ursula. Holy balls. They're just they're going to steal your organs and and she and then she they're like, no, no, no, stay down. And they're trying to hold her down. And she starts yelling help call the police. And they're like, we are the police. It's okay. And they're and so then they're thinking they're on drugs. They must be on some kind of drug because now Sabine is up on her feet. And she's trying to like, she's like, like trying to get away. And they're like, you need to calm down.

It's okay. She fucking jumps the rail and runs into the other on the other side of the freeway. Fucking kidding me swear to God. They thank God that wasn't as busy on that side. And I think they may have stopped traffic like it was totally stopped on this side where Ursula was probably lucky lose slowing down and shit probably and like maybe less traffic. I'm not sure. But anyway, she runs across this cop has to run after her and he's like, stop, what are you doing? Don't you know, you're hurt, you're hurt. And she's like, and she basically turns turns on him, like she's going to fist fight him. And she's like, and she's screaming help call the police. And they're like, we are the police, like it's crazy. So they, so basically, it eventually

takes six policemen to subdue Sabine, six policemen to finally get her down and sedate, like they shoot her up. They meanwhile, airlift Ursula out to the hospital. She was spitting at them the whole like they were fighting the entire time. And the cops that subdued Sabine said that she had superhuman strength that both of them did. So they're thinking they're on probably on PCP or something like, you know, the drugs associated with that were taught as a kid or like, yeah, yeah, you could like lift a car or do whatever you want. Totally. Um, which I just the idea of whatever world that they were in where they thought what was what was happening because they still don't know to this day,

the logic behind and there's no explanation. Wait, I hope I was hoping you'd get to the explanation. Well, I'm just going to spoiler alert for you right now. They've never explained it in court. When she finally went to court, all she would say is no comment. They have never explained any of it. And there was no drugs in their system. So, okay, she gets, they finally, they finally, the six people get her down, sedate her, she goes to the hospital and then goes directly into police custody in a place called Stoke on Trent. So on May 19th, 2008, she is released from court. Sabina is released from court without a full psychiatric evaluation having pleaded guilty to trespass on the motorway and hitting a police officer, which she decked that female police

officer. She punched her right in the face to get away from her. That's before she ran across for the third fucking time. So the court sentenced her to one day in custody, which she'd already served. So she leaves and she begins to wander the streets of Stoke on Trent, trying to find her sister in the hospital and carrying her possessions in a clear plastic bag. So she's just kind of now out on the street. Let her go. Yeah. So she's that night, two local guys who are walking a dog see her and there she comes up and is very friendly. She's petting the dog. They're all talking. One of the men is a 54 year old man named Glenn Hollingshead, who is a self employed welder. He was had been a paramedic and he was a former RAF worker. The other man was his friend Peter

Malloy. And so they all start talking. And even though she's friendly, Sabina is acting super weird. So she does stuff like offers. She's asking them if they know any the directions for any good bed and breakfasts or any place to stay. She offers them cigarettes and then takes them back while they're smoking them. Like she's so he so this guy Glenn Hollingshead can tell there's something wrong with her. This is the part I this is the part that I'm like, did we do this one? Did we? Stephen? Well, this is the murder part. Yeah. So we must have talked about this. I'm sure we've talked about it, but I don't know. I don't think we have. I'd be a bummer. Well, who cares? You're doing a great job. Well, thanks. Thank you. Appreciate it. So she they go back to his house

because he he's like something's wrong with this lady. Yeah. And she's just wandering out on the street. So they go back to his house and she's basically saying I need to find my sister. She's in a hospital. So they start. I think they said she she they hang out that night. She was carrying multiple mobile phones and a laptop. She was constantly looking out the window. She was super paranoid. And Malloy assumed the friend assumes that she's run away from an abusive partner, the way she's acting. So they're like, you can stay here. And she's all bandaged up and shit. Right. After being released, I don't but I don't think when she was up and like basically trying to duke it out with this cop, she looked fine. Having been hit by a car two times. Yeah. She

seemed fine and didn't break any bones apparently because she wasn't like held at the hospital. So okay. So anyway, when the friend leaves, he leaves at shortly before midnight and Sabina stays at the house. So the next morning, hauling his head is calling local hospitals to find Ursula to see where she is. And at let's see, this would be 740 in the morning. He goes outside to ask his neighbor for teabags. And the neighbor says, I'm going to finish up what I'm doing and I'll come and bring him over. And so so Glenn walks back into the house. Oh, because he's watching the neighbors washing his car. So he's like, when I finish, I'll bring him over. And then a minute after going inside, he staggers back outside the house and saying saying to the neighbor,

she stabbed me and then collapses on the ground. And when he'd gone back into the house, Sabina stabbed him five times with a kitchen knife. And he died from his injuries there. And she ran and the neighbor calls 999, which is 911 in England. Not that I had to tell you that. Does this, does this seem familiar? No, I don't think we've done this one. Okay. Because it seems familiar to me, but I know I've watched a full movie about this on YouTube. You can and we all can if you want to after this. So essentially, she goes out of this house with a hammer in her hand and is hitting herself in the head with the hammer. So every once in a while, periodically, it says from Wikipedia. So a passing motorist sees

this and gets out of the car and tries to grab the hammer away from her. And while they're wrestling, Sabina pulls a roof tile out of her pocket. You know, when you're wandering around town, like this looks and you just put some stuff in your pocket, she pulls it out and hits him in the head with it. He's momentarily stunned and she runs away. Oh my God. But at this point, the paramedics from the 999 call have shown up and they see her and they chase her. And they end up pursuing her to Heron Cross, where she jumps off a 40 foot bridge onto the A 50, which is another freeway or highway. I can't stay away from I mean, they love it. They love freeways and highways. So that in that fall, she does break bones. So she is not superhuman. And she's taken to the

hospital. And then when she's recovering there, she is put under arrest. And she's later discharged and then charged with murder. And so she goes to trial. They hold her. And this is the part that drives me crazy. She was supposed to go, she's charged with murder in September of 2008, the day she's discharged from the hospital. And the trial is scheduled for February of 2009. But they can't find her medical records from Sweden. So the trial is then pushed to September of 2009. So basically, both of these sisters are kind of these mysteries. They can't find anything about them. They can't figure out what the deal is on them, which I think is so fascinating. Obviously, there's mental illness taking place anyway. There's something really serious going on.

It breaks from reality somehow. Yeah. So she pleads guilty to manslaughter with diminished responsibility. But at no point during her interrogation or during the trial, does she explain her actions? She only says no comment to extensive police questioning. Both the prosecution and defense say that she was insane at the time of the killing, but sane during her trial. And the defense counsel claims that Sabine is the secondary sufferer of folly adieu, and that Ursula was the primary alpha in the situation, which is easy to say now that she's off with her crushed legs. And it doesn't diminish your responsibility for what you've done. Well, because Ursula had nothing to do with that stabbing. She wasn't there for it. So it's kind

of like, it's trying to say, well, she's the one that's just going along with everything. It's like, yeah, but Ursula wasn't there to tell her to do that. And obviously way more is going on if that was her, if that was her behavior when she was by herself. Oh my God, I want to know. I want to know all of it. Anyway, she sentenced to five years in prison. Five. She had already spent four hundred and thirty nine days in custody. So she was she ended up being eligible for release in 2011. So they the judge says that she has a low level of culpability for her actions. But basically that the killing was based on mental illness. She thought she was in danger. They thought they were in danger the whole time. They didn't know where they were when they were

on the freeway when all that stuff was taking place. They clearly had a break from reality and had some kind of a psychotic break because they were yelling at the police, call the police. And the police were repeatedly yelling back to them, we are the police. And that just wasn't, didn't seem to be breaking through in any way. And so I don't think there's no explanation, but it didn't seem like that changed in any significant way. By the time Glenn Hollings had brought her into his apartment, I mean, she was like, that's that kind of thing, though, of like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? This is like, this is not a healthy person or an okay person. I mean, he was he was trying to be a good guy is what he was doing.

But but there's a lot of danger in that of like just taking in a mentally ill person from the street is is a dangerous thing, even if it's a woman. Yeah. What was I going to ask? So did they get out? Are she out? Yes, she was paroled. And we don't know. Hold on. Yeah. Yeah, she got out. Where is she now? I don't know. I'm scared. I'm scared now. Yeah. The and the brother of Glenn Hollings head, the guy that got stabbed, Hollins head, basically said that he he doesn't blame her because he clearly understands that she was her mental state. She probably thought that was something she needed to do. But she blame he blames that system that just released her into the street with a plastic bag

going like, Well, good luck. You clearly ran across the freeway three times. But now you're just on your own. Yeah. Yeah. Without the person you've been with. So it's like, we don't know if you Oh my god. But so here's the thing that I want to know. And like, let's just put aside so because there weren't drugs in their system. So all those all their theories of like, they're on PCP or this none of that proved out. And they they I think that the reason it's vague here and hopefully there's other people that know the details and we would love to hear that I would love to hear them. But like, the idea that they're not they're not on drugs, clearly, there's some kind of a psychosis taking place. But not so much that they then get put into any kind of like that that Sabine gets

put into any kind of a mental hospital should have been what is it 51 51, they can hold you for being crazy for something. And like, what more do you need than people cross the freeway three times? Yeah, you're not hurt. Get out of here. Right. It doesn't it's very strange. It doesn't make a ton of sense. But for me, I want to know. So one of the things they said they were carrying were a whole bunch of cell phones in those bags that they didn't want people to see. But the idea that they thought people wanted to take their organs like they thought they were being chased. Yeah, they thought they needed a bunch of cell phones. They couldn't show them to people. They they like that idea. It's like a, you know, a paranoid delusion or whatever. But like,

what did they what was the world that they were in? I would just be so fascinated to know the details of what they thought was happening. It's one of those like mysteries of like, you know, like Tam and shoot that that guy, you know, that it's like, well, we ever know, I really want to know, maybe the answer someday will be like the girls, the girls in Austin, who got killed at the Yogershop, like I want to know so bad. Yeah, we might never know. Yeah, so frustrating. I feel like I I feel like I should have done like more back end research. But for me, the the fascinating part is that all I mean, it's the stabbing is an insane like ending and so terrible and so incredibly tragic. But like, what was happening on that freeway is so crazy. Yeah. And that to me,

I got all caught up in that. And the video, I mean, watching that video was just like, I did. Because it's like, it was the whole story. Totally. I understand. It's crazy, though. It doesn't it's like your mind can't comprehend it because it's a person running into traffic. No, I can't. Yeah, it's crazy. Wow. Really, really crazy. I want to know also if Ursula being separate from if because they were separated, if anybody like snapped out of it and then was like, Oh, this is we were we were, I mean, but you can't blame it on that. Can't like, it's not real. The second, like the connection that they had that made them do this, you know what I mean? Like they are just both crazy. Right. But it's real. I'm sorry. They're both mentally ill. Yes.

But separately, they're mentally ill. It's not like one is causing the other one. Right. Although that's kind of like the what they say. Yes, because the other the Gibbons sisters, who were those who were those twins who lived in Wales and they grew up, they were like some of the only black people in Wales. So they grew up and they were terribly bullied and abused. They didn't talk to anybody but each other and they had a secret language that so this is basically it's the same thing. Yeah, they had a thing where when they were in jail, because they they started lighting fires. And so they went to jail, they went to a mental hospital because they didn't talk to anybody and they only talk to each other. But they would do a thing where they would find one if standing

frozen in a certain pose in her cell and they would go to the other cell on the other side of the jail and she would be standing in the exact same pose. Oh my God. Oh my God. So there is something to like the mental connection of twins. I know there's something there because like how did that happen? Yeah. Unless it was like oh every day we do this thing. Right this time. Maybe. I don't know or is that you know someone exaggerating at the mental hospital told someone that and that got a little bigger and bigger and bigger. Like it's it's own creepypasta. Yeah. Well, but every reporter there was a reporter that went and spent time with them who said they were just incredibly eerie. You know, it's like two people that don't feel the need to talk who would just

sit there that also are like, you know, twins and one of them finally said to that reporter, the only way I'm getting out of here is if one of us dies. And then one did die of an expanded heart or something like kind of for no reason like in a way where it's just one died and then the other got out and she lived a normal life or at least she's got out and is living her life outside a mental hospital. If you could be a twin, would you be a twin? Oh, I want to be when I was a kid. You what I wanted to be when I was a kid. I mean, I think it'd be fun. It would I bet it would be hard to like look at yourself all the time. Part of me was just like I kind of want to know what I look like objectively. You know what I mean? Yes. And do you ever like look at photos

and be like, Okay, if I saw that girl, what would I think? I don't know. I mean, the funny thing to me is that I can take such insanely bad pictures and I can take really good pictures. And then it's like, well, what is the I guess it's just a happy medium. And that's how it is with everybody. So we're the yeah, I'm gonna get. Yeah. Everything. What if you and I start fucking, what is it called? Morphing into each other. Follying. Folly a doing. Yes. Let's do that on the road. Okay, that'd be kind of fun. It'd be fun to just run and just get your yeah, like you make my decisions for me, please. I'm done making decisions. Yeah, my decision is to pull someone's eyes out. Sorry. Sorry, my decision is to run in a free way. All right.

I love when I like think of a murder like when I'm like what murder should I do and then I'm like, Oh, yeah, I've fucking been fascinated by this one for years. I'm gonna do it. You know, when it's like not when you just randomly fine. Yeah. So Mel Ignato is a 50 year old man. He's a divorced father of three grown kids. And Brenda Sue Schaefer is 36. She's a medical assistant. And they had been in a relationship for two years and engaged. And then in 1988, Schaefer decides to break it off. And she tells a friend that Mel was sexually abusive. And by all accounts, everyone says he's controlling and he's a sadistic motherfucker is what I wrote. So Brenda goes missing after deciding to break it off with Mel.

And her car is found on the highway real close to her home close enough that if had broken down she could have walked over walked home. It had been broken into the radio stolen and family and police, though, quickly suspect Mel in the disappearance. But they're unable to locate any witnesses or physical evidence linking him. And they can't find Brenda, her body. So they interview him to clear his name. So he can clear his name by testifying before a grand jury. And randomly he mentions the name of his ex girlfriend of 10 years, Marianne Shore, which randomly brings her into the investigation for the first time, they hadn't even known it like she wasn't on the radar at all. So the police interview, Marianne, and eventually she confesses

to helping plan the murder of Brenda. And of course, out of that, she gets a plea bargain that she'll only get charged with tampering with evidence. So Marianne tells police that Mel had convinced her to help him plan and carry out Brenda's murder. They spend they had spent several weeks making extensive preparations for Brenda's murder, including quote, scream testing, Marianne's house and digging a grave in the woods behind her house. Mel even keeps a checklist of the things he was going to do to Brenda on the night he killed her. And these photos of her, you know, I watched a couple episodes of all these shows. And he looks like, you know, he's 50 years old, he looks like a dad, he looks like a normal dude, normal 80s dad. She's 36. And she's this pretty, you know,

sweet looking girl, a fucking sweet honesty ad, you know, and it's his girlfriend, they're engaged, they were together for two years, she had been divorced, and he's kind of like showering her with gifts. And it just gets weirder and weirder, though. And her family says in the beginning, like, we just didn't understand why she was with him at all. And it didn't trust him from the beginning. But I think, you know, he was a sociopath. So he was fucking charming at first. Yeah, he made her feel special. Right. And so on September 23, 1988, Marianne tells the police that Mel lures Brenda to the house, under the guise of her returning some jewelry that had belonged to Mel that I think he must have bought her. And when Brenda gets in the house, Mel pulls

a gun and locks the door. And Marianne is there this whole time. He forces her to strip, then blindfolds, gags and binds her. And he uses the list of all the things he was going to do to her and proceeds to go down the list doing each of them. He ties her to a coffee table, and he rapes, sodomizes and beats her all the while having Marianne take photos of what's going on. What the fuck? What in the fuck? This is someone you were with for two years. You were, you've grown children. Like who the fuck? Yeah. Let's see. Marianne says she never joined in. She just took photos. Oh, okay, Marianne. Oh, yeah, everything's fine then. Okay. You just took the photos of a vicious attack. He then that's even

grosser. I know. It's even grosser. How could you see that? You're standing by taking photos? Get out, lady. I can't even watch a fucking bar fight. I love a bar fight. Do you? I love it. I love it. What about it? It's like watching attention. It's from going to college in Sacramento. They happened all the time. Basically, bars would clear out, and then people would just stand around watching people fight until the cops came. And then girls would like cry and like, you know. Drunk girls cry. If you just be quiet, it'll be over faster and then we'll all go home. It's my favorite. It's just like male, it's, it's, you know, 80s male expression. They're just like, I'm not a football player and I'm not a frat boy. I don't know what to do. I'm all pent up with my

fucking testosterone and anger and shit. Me and my feeling, I have all these feelings and I'm not allowed to have them and I listened to a lot of Boston. So here I'm going to punch you right in the face. I saw a couple of vicious fights before. So like, I feel like I have this aversion to them. I just, they were too awful. Yeah. I don't like, I can't, I can't look. I love it. That's so amazing. I love that. I love that. Anyways, back to the horror. Okay. She's taking photos says she never joins in. He then takes, Mel then takes Brenda back to the back bedroom and kills her by putting a rag soaked in chloroform over her mouth until she dies

for a fucking baby. And then Marianne helps Mel cover up the murder by including burying Brenda and a hole they dug behind behind the house. So they bury her. Marianne. So after her admission, 14 months after Brenda's disappearance, Marianne leads the investigators to the grave site. They find Brenda's badly decomposed body buried there. Of course, there's no DNA evidence since the body had been decomposed, but that's in 1988. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like now they could have 14 months. Isn't that long to be buried, right? Oh, I feel like these days, they could get it in so many ways. Totally. Yeah. But back then it was like, yeah, yeah, did totally different story. Yes. So they investigators convinced Marianne to wear a

wire to talk to Mel and she tells them the FBI is hounding her. She's afraid the property behind her house is going to be sold and developed. And he's on the tape breeding her for letting the FBI, quote, rattle her and told her that he didn't care if they dug up the whole property because, quote, that place we dug is not shallow. So based on this recording, as well as a little physical evidence from his home, prosecutors charged Mel Ignato with the murder in 1991. And then, okay, let's see. So during one of the recorded conversations, when Mel says that place we dug is not shallow, he says besides that one area right by where that site is, does not have any trees by it, the defense attorney convinced the jury that Mel said safe and not site. And so it

led the jurors to conclude that the discussion involved burying a safe, not a body. So instead of site, they thought it would, they convinced the jury that it was safe, like they fucking buried a safe. But didn't Mary Ann already tell them everything they needed to know? Well, so, so, so Mary Ann testifies, she's a star witness, but she dresses like skimpy, laughs the whole time during her testimony. And they argue that the defense argues that Mary Ann killed Brenda, not Mel. And so him saying that thing about a safe doesn't implicate him in the murder. Whoa. Yeah. So and she had been convicted of fraud before. And so her credibility is totally under, undermined, undermounded, undermined, undermined, undermined in the eyes, undermined. That was a joke. I knew

wasn't that. Stephen, don't write that down. Stephen, I see you're in that down, undermined, undermined. That's my new word. Oh, I wrote her, all of which undermines her credit a little bit, credibility in the eyes of the stupid idiot jury. Then I said the stupid idiot jury found Mel Ignato not guilty on all seven counts. Whoa. Yep. Then the judge, Martin Johnstone, he's so embarrassed by the verdict that he writes a letter of apology to the Schaefer family saying if it was just me and not a jury, I would have fucking put this guy away forever, which is like pretty amazing. Yeah. And then an interesting random fact. So it was this was take took place like December 21st or so. And it turns out that when a trial, the closer a trial takes place to Christmas,

juries are more likely to acquit. That makes sense. It's not fucked up. Yeah. Is it because they want to get the fuck out of trial? Or is it because they have like, they have feelings of, you know, when you get all fuzzy and cozy during the holidays, you're like, love and family and stuff. Yeah. I bet it's like, I bet it's a bit of both depending on the personality, but it's like normally where you wouldn't have either at play, you have now both at play. Right. So whether it's the person that's like, but I just watched this Hallmark movie about giving people a second chance. Yeah. Fuck. And like in the fucking courtroom, there's like a Christmas tree in the corner. And they're like, people are looking over there like, I've got to go shopping now.

They put a fucking Santa hat on Mel. No, stop it. No, I'm just saying that's what they should be. They bake cookies. So it just smells nice. Immediate mistrial. They just, no, they just spray air freshener. They smell like baked cookies. Spray cinnamon glade. Don't you love it? Okay. And is it? Okay. So six months later, okay, then, so he's out this motherfucker. Six months later, he sells his house cause he needs funds to pay for his legal bills. And the house is like, he's not a fucking trashy person. He has a beautiful house. He looks like a normal guy. I argue he is a trashy person. I mean, clearly, you know what I mean? Like you wouldn't know.

Like when I was like researching it, I was like, Oh, I thought of like, I'm making a murderer dude. Yes. Right. Who's just like, lives on a, you know, farm or whatever. No, it's like a lovely tutor house. And he is your fucking dad's best friend in the eighties. Yeah. So he, he sells the house. He needs to pay for the legal bills. So a carpenter is laying a carpet layer is working on the house. He pulls up a length of carpet in the hallway. Underneath that carpet is a floor vent inside that floor vent is a plastic bag taped to the inside of the vent. Inside the bag is the jewelry that Brenda had brought over the night of as well as three rolls of undeveloped film. Oh, shit. And he grabbed that bag and ran. Nope. Cause he didn't own the fucking house anymore.

Someone else owned it. Oh, you mean the guy, the carpenter, the carpenter? Yes, he did. Okay, good. Okay. He was like, no. And then he very silently, he, he nailed in some wood and covered that. He opened all the, and he exposed the, the film. Anyways, that's the end of my story. The end buy. Yeah. So the fucking cops get those three rolls of film developed. It's like 180 photos of start to finish Marianne's, I mean, Brenda's torture and murder taken by Marianne. So everything she said was done by Mel. Holy shit. Well, Mel's face isn't in the film, but his body, hair patterns and moles match it perfectly. Oh good. Okay. And match her story. Yes. Like she wasn't fucking lying. She's a fucking monster. Yes. She was lying. Hey, guess what, Karen?

What? Ever heard of double jeopardy? I sure have. Oh, well, here it is to ruin your night. Yep. Because of double jeopardy. Mel can't be retried for Brenda's murder. He's brought to child for trial for perjury based on his grand jury testimony. Cause it's like all they could fucking do. Um, he knew he couldn't be retried for murder. So he confesses in court at his perjury trial to the whole fucking thing. He turns to Schaefer to Brenda's brothers and says, but she died peacefully. Yeah. He gets an eight year sentence for perjury, serves five of those years credit for two years that he was served and another year off for good behavior. You get, can we look at your whole life of behavior and know that you murdered someone and then,

so that doesn't, so you fucking not getting in a fight at the mess hall doesn't take time off your fucking sentence. You'd think one would think excuse me. So, um, sentence. Okay. Good behavior. He's out. He gets another thing, another charge, another year, another thing for perjury, a different thing. Um, so they're still going after him in whatever way they can. Yeah. Like they do on law and order. We'll get them further today. Right. Right. So he gets, he's another, another trial for perjury, nine years for that released from prison for the second time in December 2006. He goes home to Louisville, living at home four miles from the house where he murdered Brenda. Whoa. Two years later, September 1st, 2008. Mel allegedly falls off a ladder, cuts his arm on

a glass coffee table. Again, the coffee table slowly leads to death. Yay. He's 70 years old. Okay. Is, I'm sorry. So it's a ladder inside the house. I don't know if it's a ladder, but you know, he's like hanging a painting on a standing, doing something. Yeah. Falls off of it. And it's some places say he breaks through the glass and cuts his arms. Some say his head, but either way, like there was like blood marks where he like climbed around the house and like couldn't. And so people are like, did he really fall like? Or did someone like basically go smash his head into a glass coffee table? Into a coffee table, which is the same thing he fucking tied Brenda to when she came over. Somewhere I said that's the same coffee table, but I don't think that's true.

And that would be, yeah. And well, that would mean he would put that coffee table into storage. But it wasn't his coffee table to begin with. It was Marianne's house. Okay. Although I think he owned it. I don't know something. So he's fucked this piece of shit is dead at 70 in 2008. Marianne served three years with five year sentence for, uh, you know, bad photography. Like, yes, the worst dies from cancer in a hospice at age 54. Whoa. That's young. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's her body turned on herself. Yeah. They were like, we're shutting this shit down. Well, she's a monster. Like if you watch her talking and see her, she's a monster. I don't understand. Like he's dating, he's a 15 year old man dating a 36 year old or 34 year

old. Why doesn't he just break up with her? Why does he have to kill her? He's have to like rape her and demean her. And what's the deal in the worst way possible? And he planned it for weeks. Like he wanted to do this so badly to her. And it was like two years. I mean, I just don't understand. He's a beast. That's crazy. They went back and interviewed like ex-girlfriend, his ex-wife, and by all accounts, he's a sexual sadist. He's a fucking monster. Like it's surprising that this is the first time he did it, did that, you know? Yeah. Especially because he plant, like at 50, he, he kills the first one, you know, when he had tortured his other girlfriends like this before and they all broke up with him or the end of the relationship somehow.

Or there's just ones that they don't know about. Yeah. Also, it's then it actually explains Marianne a little bit more because those, because of how like weird, spangolish those types of men can be, where suddenly you're doing things that you would never do, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. We've talked a lot of shit about Marianne, but, but I'm just saying she's a victim too. And that way where it's just one more person in his weird chain of the way he uses women and what he does to women. Pits them against each other. Yes. Where it's just like, well, you're the special one. So hold this camera. I mean, like God, it's just, or she's terrified of him because she's had 10 years of fucking psychological and physical abuse from him as well and sexual abuse that, you know,

she was with him for 10 years. Yeah. So maybe in so deep and brainwashed and brainwashed PTSD. It's so ugly. That's gross. I wish I had a positive spin on it at the end, but now I don't think you can spin that one. There ain't one. They're not that one. Poor Brenda. Yeah, that's awful. Yeah. We have a murder from a friend. Should we do Kurtz? Oh, yeah. Okay. So, okay. We haven't done a, we haven't done a friend hometown murder in a while. Yeah. And we have a friend, Kurt Bronner, who I'm sure you guys know, he's a hilarious comedian and actor. And he called, called one in. He called one in. He has a special, his comedy specials coming out this Friday on Comedy Central at midnight. He also has a podcast on Audible with his wife,

Lauren is a good friend of mine called wedlock coming on April. So check those out. Let's, I haven't listened to this. Let's hear Kurtz. Wait. Okay. Hey, it's Kurt. So here's my, there's my murder story. I, this was a teacher that taught at my high school Christian Brothers Academy. It sounds very fancy, but it wasn't really fancy. It was just a all boys Catholic school in Linncroft, New Jersey. He was the Latin teacher a few years after I stopped going there. But the Latin teachers historically had been lunatics. The Latin teacher that was there, when I was there was an a monk, like a brother. Most of the teachers were brothers and they're all like weirdos. But he was like the weirdest of the weirdos. He wouldn't allow you to have a pen

in class or hold a pen. And when we, and he also would just always constantly talk about his niece's little cupcake breasts. Not kidding. Well, I heard many times about her little cupcake breasts. He was taken out of the position of being the Latin teacher because a kid in the class was holding the pen until he punched him in the mouth. And then they're like, okay, you don't get to teach anymore. And then that was taken over by my good friend, Steve, who was a Latin teacher for a while. He couldn't take it. It drove him crazy. He left, but he stopped teaching and went to live in Italy to become a stone sculptor, a marble stone sculptor. And that's when this guy, this guy, Matt, took over as the Latin teacher with teaching Latin, the Christian Brothers Academy drove him

so crazy that he just started getting into smoking crack. Apparently in the afternoons, in a place that my aunt used to live called Ocean Grove and Ocean Grove is a Christian community. So Christian in the 80s, on Sunday, they would close off the town to cars. He apparently Jesus doesn't like to drive a car on Sunday. And so my aunt used to live there and she used to babysit me and she's since become a nun. So I'm just trying to explain to you how Christian and Catholic, this whole situation is this guy works at Christian Brothers Academy. He's smoking crack with a woman whose last name is weed. So this is Ms. Weed and this guy Matt are smoking crack together on a Sunday afternoon. And then around 6.30 pm, they get into an argument. He murders her with

a knife. He stabs her nine times in the neck. After I guess there was also a beating involved. It's very horrific. And then he just walked out down the street to Ocean Grove. So near minutes after people called the cops because they heard him screaming, they just found him wandering down the streets of this Christian town just bloody having murdered this woman. They just love to smoke crack with on a Sunday afternoon. This is at 6.30 pm. So whenever they started smoking crack, I have no idea. But that's what my high school would do to you. That's insanity. Is it weird that I never want to hang out with Kurt again because I'm terrified. I love the visual of a guy covered in blood walking through a town where you're not allowed

to drive on the weekends. It sounds like it sounds like, yeah, it sounds like a twilight zone town. Yes. That's so perfect. That then a guy suddenly the image of the opposite of that walking through town. Also, what was driving people so crazy about that Latin class? It's fucking Latin, man. There's some there's some like devil shit devil shit in there. It's devilish. I can't believe they taught it there. Please watch Kurt Bronner special Trust Me which airs this Friday, March 3rd at midnight on Comedy Central. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That was her. That was quite the episode. That was that was dark. That one had something for everybody. Yeah. Mostly murder if everyone wanted murder. Yeah. Oh, wait,

let's say something something good. Okay. You go first. Okay. Well, mine is really big, but I also can't super get into detail about it. But I'll just say this. I had a year, a probably three year problem, uh, get resolved on Friday afternoon that has caused me so much stress and panic and, and shame. And it's a financial thing that's boring in detail, but I will tell you this. If you're in a place where you are fucked financially and you're worried and you're scared, it will end. And I, I swear to God, I was, I've been in this place before, but this was like a way, way, way bigger version. And it really felt hopeless at times. And, um, and it's over. And like, and part of the reason it's over is because of this podcast.

And, uh, I'm so grateful that we are doing it and that we have it. It means the world to me. And we're, I feel crazy lucky that we actually get to do this as a job. It's so fun. And also just the fact that now this truly it's like a 500 pound weight has been taken off my shoulders. I'm happy for you. It's really quite nice. I had no idea how rough it was until it ended. And you told me, I couldn't tell anybody about it. It was so silly. Please tell me, I can handle fucked up shit. Well, yeah. No, I know. It's just that thing where I think it's like, I think everybody has some version of it where it's like the problem where you think it's this means some terrible thing about you around it. Yeah. Or just like, it's failure.

It's, it's I failed and now everyone's going to know I failed. Um, but guess what? Everybody fails. Everybody fails on all different levels every day and we're all trying to make ourselves feel better about it. So don't beat yourself up and, um, just know the end. There's always, there's always a silver lining. There was always light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. I had, in the same kind of idea of that, what you just said, I had, after going to therapy, since I was a child, like after, like around five, I had the most amazing session today of, I think ever, and she said to me halfway through, I know you're an atheist, Georgia, but you, you worship at the altar of doubt and it fucking blew my mind. And so we're working

on that now and how to get past doubt. And it, it was this switch today that I'm so, it made me hopeful for the first time in a long time. Uh, when I met you, when we were at Jones on Lord tonight, today. Uh, you absolutely seem different. Really? Yes. Well, you had, first of all, like the big smile, because somebody was telling you a story about murder. There was a murder story happening when I arrived, but then also, yeah, just that kind of, you had almost like the, um, like almost the eyes of like wide-eyed wonder kind of thing of like, oh my God, you can look at the world in a different way. And so because of that, I want to say like, and I know it's so people try to find therapists and they're new at it and they're like, this didn't work for

me or like, I didn't like this person and it just is a lifetime of it. And I've had so many fucking therapists in my life and a handful have been really good. Yeah. And the one I have luckily is right now is amazing and you just have to keep, keep trying, keep trying cause you'll find, you'll find it. It is almost a little bit like dating. It has to be a person that you want to spend that time with, that you want to barf all your worst stuff onto. Yeah. But under, but still doesn't make you feel bad. No, they can't make you feel bad. No. And this is the first time she's ever said something straight up to me like that. And I fucking appreciate it so much. And this is after a year of getting to know me. And that was just life changing. Yeah. That's a good thing to realize

and understand there's options. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, Pac-Man, I feel lucky too for this podcast. I can't believe this is my life. I'm so, we're pretty lucky. So lucky knock on, knock on what veneer would. Thank you, Stephen. Thanks for Stephen. Thank you so much for really bringing us together and making this podcast happen. Part of this. Oh, thank you. Stephen Ray Morris from the podcast. It's like turning red. Flushing. Stephen, Stephen, you can't be here if you can't take a compliment. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm writing Stephen about not taking our compliment. It's better if I yell at you, right? Yeah. It feels like home. Um, yeah. Well, thanks. I know, I get it. Thanks for joining us, you guys and listening and, uh, and participating. And guess

what? What? He knows already. I know. He's jump, you're jumping your line. Yeah, Elvis. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? Bye.