My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 60 - Jazz It

Episode Date: March 16, 2017

On this week's episode, Karen and Georgia explore the mysteries surrounding The Axeman of New Orleans and family annihilator William Bradford Bishop.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hi. Hi.

Hi. How's it going? Good, how are you? Real good, yourself? Good, thank you. Good, good. Good. This is the podcast that talks about true crime stories and really breaks them down.

Yep, and that's all we talk about. That's not true. There is a lot of lying on this podcast. And we don't, yeah, this is pretty, this is pretty exactly how it goes. Yeah, if you don't like it, go away. Don't, Karen gets real mad at you guys sometimes. I feel like people kind of like at live shows, they like when you yell at them, so they'll purposely like scream something.

Well, I mean, some of those live shows, it's like those people have never been in a theater or been to a live show before. It's just like drunk girls who repeat yelling the same thing over and over. That's not how you act. Then you hear other people shushing those people. It's just intense. It's just like, it feels like there's a fight's going to break out. And it might be, and it might be with you.

Well, that's fine with me. I'm thoroughly trained. If you love a bar fight, God, I'm sorry. I do have some corrections from the, God, last couple, speaking of a live show. In the Boston show that we posted, I referenced the blog name, I did it for Jody. I said it was a, that was a reference to Mark David Chapman, but that's incorrect. I meant John Hinckley Jr., the man who tried to assassinate Reagan. He said when he was brought in that he did it for Jody Foster, he was obsessed with Jody

Foster. I was talking about Mark David Chapman. That's the man who shot John Lennon. Got it. I would, I was about to say, oh, he was the one who shot John Lennon. So were you about my guy? Yeah. Yeah.

The three name guys, it's hard. And then the ones who everybody theorizes are actually government robots. Do they? Yeah. That's both of those guys. There's a, there's a lot of theorizing that it's like an MK ultra situation. Like the nerdiest fuck guys, you just like kind of get them mixed up. It's he, they're definitely are both in the nerd group if this was the mess Westminster

dog show. One of them has, that's hilarious. I want to pause for a moment to acknowledge that going on to saying that which one had catcher in the rye in his back pocket, which is like the best book ever if you're in high school. Yeah. Mark David Chapman. Right.

Yes. Cause he's the one that shot John Lennon. Right. And he had John Lennon sign catcher in the rye. Right. Which is just like, all right, calm, calm down. I mean, Jesus. Like, come on.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. What else? That mistake also kind of in the same vein when you were talking about Sam Shepard and you told that story, I began to confuse Sam Shepard with Dr. Jeffrey McDonald, who also killed his whole family or is suspected of. He's the one with the, there was saying there's three crazy people.

They like to say these things. Yes. Your guy, Sam Shepard was in the early sixties. My guy that I was thinking you were talking about was in 69. And so the whole time that's why at one point in that episode, I was like, what year was it? And they're, I, in my mind, there's no way there could be two doctors who killed their whole families and were like, and like guilty or like suspected and also equally not.

And got away. Well, this is Sham Shepard. Sham Shepard is the one. Sham Shepard. He's a sham. Sam Shepard is the one who got kind of famous afterwards. Yeah. And like, was it kind of a douche?

Right. I mean, they were both, but. And they both, they both didn't kill their children who were sleeping in the bedroom next to where they killed their wives. Well, I don't want to agree because I allegedly killed their wives. All right. But Dr. Jeffery McDonald is the one who fatal vision is about. And who is also the one who the Earl Morris new novel that's basically a refuting fatal

vision is about, wait, so refuting saying that he did or didn't do it. Fatal vision was basically Joe McGinnis making friends with Jeffery McDonald and then being like, here's how he did it. And then when like in Earl Morris' book, which I just got a book on tape of, they basically break down how it was just super mishandled. And like it was just, they were trying to make money, held their skeleton style. And it was, you know, the whole thing was kind of unfairly presented, I guess. But I have to listen to the whole thing before I.

I sure do love to talk about things. I don't know. I feel like you shouldn't listen. Let's hear it now. Let's just theorize much like when I talked about scuba diving. And I said that you have to have a partner because there's no way you can check your things. Yeah.

Well, of course, then everyone on Twitter is like, yes, you can check your things. It's not like someone's going to be like under the water. What if they did though? Karen said, like that's, you didn't need to correct that. You know what I mean? I mean, here's the thing though. It's those little lies. Yeah.

It's the same one as I said that my dad got chemotherapy three times a week. And then I thought about it this morning, I'm like, he got it once a week, and he got it for like, you know, eight, I don't know, three weeks, three months or something like that. Yeah. But just as I talk, it's just all like blah, blah, blah. But she sounds so confident about it. I know.

Like I wouldn't. No. I want to apologize to you for correcting you so vehemently and cockily, cockily about not saying the word hobo anymore. Oh, yeah. But that the audience was already making that sound. Oh, they were. Oh, but we don't, I can't.

I think so. Okay. Well, it shouldn't come from me. Thank you for apologizing. Yeah. Transient. Transient. Spell it.

But why though, I just need a good reason because hobo is just a, it's a negative term that, that all that insinuates that, I don't know, it's just, it's slang. So what? I don't know. Don't ask me why. Well, I'm just saying, I'm not going to change it until I get the reason. Sex worker is because prostitute is a negative and it actually makes people, when people see the word, they immediately judge the person and like lessen the value that hobo, oh, how

about, I don't know. I just want to know. I'm sure there's someone out there that knows, I bet they're going to tell us. Yeah. I'd love to know. Okay. Cause maybe it's like host nouns for this and both dance for that type of thing. I want to know what it is.

Yeah. Because I feel like in this day and age, there's things people can't do and it's just because some other person decided we're not doing that anymore. Yes. I don't like that stuff. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

I just think it sounds really dismissive of the, but I get it that it's just because I've heard that before. It's just like that old hobo, you know what I mean? It's just, it's dismissive of the. I say it with love in my heart. It sounds pretty rad. I say it's like, it's a guy with a hole in his boot that's going to cook up can of beans over a fire.

It's all fun, good. Did you hear about the chicken Seattle? And I'm sure you did because every single person in the world tweeted it at us. But the girl who was running in the park in Seattle and Ballard, which is like a nice little community who got attacked in the pride in the bathroom and the public bathroom in the park, which I'm terrified of those. And she's, yeah, she fucking fought him and said, not today, motherfucker. And here's the gray area is like, you don't want to say how bad as she is because there's

that sending the message that you should always fight once, you know, that's, it's just such a situational thing and like reading the situation. So you don't want to be like, beat the shit out of the person attacking you because that could be the absolute wrong thing to do in that situation. I say in all of these scenarios, anything in life is a case by case situation. And just because we're saying it out loud doesn't mean it's a rule of any kind. Nobody needs to hear that in particular. But yeah, also if you, if you, I think in a situation like that, those bathrooms, it's

like a secluded, you know, she's secluded in a park and then even more so in that bathroom. It's a man inside the woman's bathroom. That's, there's nothing about this that can be turned around. So go for it. Yeah, that's true. Go for it. You know, you know, as a human being, when you are in real danger, right? That's then just allow those instincts to take over.

I would say. Yeah. I think it's all instinctual. I don't think it's any thinking at that point. Right. Fuck man. I like the idea that like, I think, didn't she say she had taken a self-defense class and so that's where that came from is just like, because that's a thing they teach you

is you just start fucking yelling. Well, the thing I really did like about it and that I think what I took away from it is that at one point, you know, she was fighting him and at one point she thought in her mind, this doesn't have to be a fair fight. And so, you know, it wasn't like wrestling. It was then she said, I started clawing at his face. And I think that that, that to me kind of hit me because it was like, this doesn't have to be civil.

This can be fucking out of control. Yes. If there is someone in the bathroom that came into the bathroom to harm you or touch you in any way that you don't want to happen, you go, the knee goes to the nuts, the fingers go to the eyes and you fucking go for it. Animals dial like they serve it in and out. You fucking go for it. Yeah.

Put some fucking Thousand Island on that motherfucker. Put that Thousand Island beat down. You melt that cheese on top of that beat down girl. And you fucking put some sauteed onions and some fucking Thousand Island beat down. It's the, it's called the not today motherfucker special and you give it, you serve it up for free. Animal style. Yeah.

A hundred percent. Bon appetit, mother. We have to take a class so we can talk about actual, I want to do it really bad. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's do it. I think the reason that I hesitate, if I'm going to be totally honest is because you know those suits that they make the people put on so that you can attack them?

Or the ones that the dog attacks, like to have the dog attack you. Yeah, but I'm just talking about the ones where the guy has to stand there, but there's like a great in front of his face, but everything else is pads. I'm scared of that. Of that character or putting that on. It looks like a, it looks like an off brand Michelin man. It looks like the Michelin man in Malaysia and I don't, that in and of itself is like horrifying.

I think it would like stop me in my tracks. Maybe it would make you fight him more. Maybe your instincts will kick in and you'll be like, well, I can do this. Maybe I'm afraid that my animal instincts will kick in and I'll pull that fucking grate out of the face and then in, in with the fingers in the eyes. Yeah. Then I get sued. Maybe you should.

Hey. You know what? Why is this creepy guy is teaching this class anyways? Like what's really his motive? Now he has your address cause you had to fill out a thing. Now he has my credit card number and your address. And he's going to talk to Del Taco every night on my dime. Oh, you know, that's bullshit literal dime.

Who is this Tuesday nights? You can get so much stuff. Oh my God. Oh man. I fucking hit that place so hard and winces out of town. I went to, oh my God, drive there. Yeah. You mean, I mean, cause it's down the street for me.

It's not, it's, it's not super close. I wouldn't say it's super close. I drove home and went there, but I did go out of my way to go to Carl's Jr. like the day before. Nice. It's that fucking, when the dogs away, the, you know, the animals, I bet you're farting all over this apartment too. I was.

That's the fun of it. Then you clean all up and you put on one of your nicer house dresses. Yeah. You're like, welcome home. Oh, look how normal I am. Look, I made you a casserole. You married a normal wife way to go. Totally normal.

Wiping like weird beans out of the corner of your mouth, Thousand Island, anything else? Those were all my mistakes. That's it. Bless me. Father Friarsend. How long has it been since your last episode of my favorite murder? It's been, I mean, it's probably been 10, a good 10 years since my last confession. Yeah.

I'm sorry. I've always been creeped out by confession. It is. As a Jewish person. I'm like, fuck. No. It's super weird. And the fact that they introduced it to you when you're in third grade is the creepiest

part because you, they explain it to you and for me, the type of person I was, which is hating to do anything I've never done before, I couldn't get anybody to explain it enough to me. Yeah. Plus you have to memorize. Like the, um, our father, the Hail Mary and the act of contrition all memorized perfectly. So if you're in there and it's your line, like you can't drop a line. You're like, I just learned my ABCs.

Yes. I'm like, can you crash out of like adding and subtracting. And now I'm like, you have to recite an incantation to like just the shadow of a man's face behind. It is the oldest looking inside those things. And who the fuck is he? Does he have your address? Your home address? You know what I mean?

Like, why did he want my child's credit card? Why did he fucking, who is he to say, who was he to take my harder and credit in third grade? Yeah. Uh, it's really crazily creepy. What's cool about Hebrew, when you're like doing the prayers and stuff is that a, they write it like phonetically, so you can like just follow that. And also they, um, you can just kind of make noise because the whole congregation singing

it at once. It's kind of, you know, it's pretty great. That is good. So I don't know. I don't know. Do you ever have the holiday thing where you're like, oh, it's, oh yeah, we go, we have holiday dinners when we get together for holidays, and we'll say a couple of the prayers, but we don't, but you're going to take it into that temple.

Make it official. No, we're very chill, right, right. But I did have a bat mitzvah. Did you stack that paper? Kind of. I was bought mitzvah by a lesbian. Nice. Yeah.

Thanks mom. Yeah. Really orange. Like opposite orange County of you. Yeah. I like that. They don't really do stuff like that down there. No.

Yeah. It's pretty sweet. Anyways. It's surprising that you were a Jew in Orange County. There weren't a lot of us. I bet. We had temple in a church. Wow.

And we had Sunday school. I mean, we had Hebrew school and a Sunday school. There was just like Jesus posters all over the wall. They're like, you have an hour and no more. Yeah. Baruchata. Get it out of the way. Goodbye.

We don't support what you're doing. No. Get the fuck out of here. Hey, how about take a look at this new testament? That's where all the action is. So this is a podcast about true crime. Who is, let's see, who went first at the last show, the live show? Steven.

You didn't. I went first. Oh, you're right. Okay. Yeah. So it's me. Yeah. What?

I'm just, everything's becoming a blur. Oh. Why? I don't know what way. I just, if you had made me guess just now, it wouldn't be like acute for the show thing. I had absolutely not only no idea who went first or last, I couldn't remember if it was a live show or a prerecorded in this room show. I get it.

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slash murder20 and use code murder20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry as the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges.

Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So this, interestingly enough, I got this murder from one of my last packs of true crime baseball cards at Stephen Davis for Christmas. I keep forgetting to look at those. Here's what I'm doing. So, uh, my new thing is it spring is I just keep cleaning out drawers in my house or like containers.

That's awesome. Um, thank you. I feels good. I'm also been wiping down walls, which is a really weird hypnotic thing to do. Like with the magical racer. Yes. Oh my God. I'm obsessed with those.

Exactly that because I didn't realize I don't look around in my house that much. Yeah. But there are walls. You quoted look around like open my eyeballs. Like, don't put your glasses on when you go in your house in my own home in any real present way. I get it. Um, because I have two dogs and one is a short to the ground dog.

I didn't see that. There are many walls in my house that look like the end of the Blair Witch where there's just a bunch of hand child hands, like dirty fingerprints that look like people are trying to climb in or out of the house. Cause he jumps up. Yeah. Jump and also the, the paint on the wall is old and it's really powdery and porous instead of the opposite.

I have that tune. It feels like chalk. Yes. You need, I need semi-gloss. Yes. Or I will lose my mind. Because with this other shit, you walk by and say the word dirt and there's a smudge on the wall.

It is maddening. So anyway, I, but I looked, I realized how much I got used to it because I was like, that looks like a crime scene. Like it looks weird. Yeah. Like, like somebody's tiny tried to pull their way along the wall, but it just frank, like running out of one room and curbing and like his little feet go up on the wall, clonking into the wall.

Why am I talking about, oh, because so I clean, so in, on top of those, okay, just me and my free time. Wow. Also cleaning out some drawers, found two more packets of the true crime, which I thought I was done with all of them. So I got super excited, open one up, found this murder, had never heard it. I think I'd heard of it, but just like, didn't really know any details or any specifics. Can we really quickly, and I just thought of this for you, is that where you got the

pappan sisters from like two episodes ago, because I want to talk about the gift we got that the girl gave us at one of the live shows. Oh, that's a good idea. Should we just do it now? Yeah. Okay. You guys remember the pan sisters, they clawed the eyeballs out of their fucking mistresses and this girl brought us a little packet and there was a little necklace in it that said

they're not marble, they're not marbles. And there was a little locket that had the pappan sisters photograph in. And then there was like a handmade like clay eyeball. Yes. And it was just like the most well thought out gift, I think. Like these three little almost charms in a box, but no one would get if you didn't know. And then we like opening it up and looking at them, did we each get one or that we had one and it's going up into the podcast booth?

We each got one. Okay. I can't believe that. So she made two eyes, two charm, two lockets, two. And I don't think I knew how to express to her like how an eye was of it. Yes. And she acted like, oh, you know, stupid. And it's like, no, no, we were like, this is amazing.

We can't, we never get to do that because we kind of feel that way. I think people see us saying it a lot, but it really is true when somebody is like, here's this thing I know you really like. Yeah. And that was like, I didn't make it. Yeah. It's unbelievable. It's amazing.

And it was, it's just a really good little eyeball too. That's sitting there. It is a good eyeball. All right. Crazy. No. So no problem. It's weird that you asked that though, because the pappan sisters were in this deck.

Oh my God. Yes. I almost, I should have done it. I almost sent you a picture when I opened it and they were like the third people in. I should have taken the picture and sent it on our constant text thread that me, Steven and Georgia are just never not on now. That's our life. It's photos.

It's fucking close. It's even going, they've asked you seven times. You have to answer. Yeah. Yes. That's our life. Anyhow. So I found this here and then in, uh, in my research, it exploded and flowered out into

something else, which I just am kind of amazed by. Okay. Okay. So here's how we start. It's the ax man of New Orleans. You know that one? No. Okay.

So he was a serial killer who struck in the city of New Orleans from May, 1918 through October of 1919. He, um, attacked obviously using an ax that he found in the home. He didn't bring anything. Each time he searched for, okay. Tell me. Yes. So it's the, it's the turn of the century.

So a lot of people have axes laying around the outside of their house and a lot of the places where he attacked, um, uh, well, and here he sometimes did it with a straight razor, but mostly with an axe. Oh, which one is worse? I think ax, straight razor is fast. Yeah. I don't think you'd even feel it. I think you'd be like, why is my neck cold in this one tiny place?

I don't want. I want to know. I want to be clunked over the head and fucking out. Okay. Then you want an ax. Oh, I guess. Yeah. We're going to put you in an ax.

Yeah. Jesus Christ. Okay. So straight razor, you would, but I, you'd bleed out so fast cause it's just across the neck. I don't know if you would. I mean, you definitely have time to look around panic. Don't want that.

It's just, so the, what's worse to me is straight razor. Okay. And what's worse to use that. You would just, you want to be out. Yep. Makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

So here's what happened. This guy, uh, would use the tools that he found in the home. He would kill the whole family and he would hang out either before or after they can't, they couldn't figure out before or after, oftentimes eating either before they could have invited him in. Could have. Um, usually the home is found locked when the police get there. Oh my God.

Um, and it's never robbed even though most of the time that people have valuables out very press, very openly, whatever, never, ever any sign of robbery. And oftentimes mirrors and faces are covered with fabric. It's creepy. Yes. Um, okay. So it starts on May 22nd, 1918. So a grocer named Joseph Maggio, um, was sleeping alongside his wife, Catherine, at their home

on the corner of Upper Lyon and Magnolia streets for people that live in New Orleans. Um, so a guy breaks into their house. He cuts their throats with a straight razor and upon leaving, he bashes their heads with an axe. Oh man. So he found both in. So you don't even need to choose. That's right.

Here's where you take that off your plate. I don't even need to ask that question. Don't even worry about it anymore. Cut that out. Cause you were going to feel both quickly and then, but it's over anyway. Yeah. Uh, Catherine's throat was cut so deep that her head was nearly severed from her shoulder. Oh, I hate that.

That's bad. Um, and I see that's the thing is like in those, um, Mafia movies and stuff, when the guys get leaned back and get at the barber to get shaved and the barber has the straight razor and off times in a, if it's a movie, they'll cut their throat for a reason. But that like bond of trust that you would have to have with that man, cause they're doing that to you. But I feel like a lot of times in movies, I've seen the, the, you know, the guy would lean back to get shaved, close his eyes and then the, and then the, the Mafia guy would

trade the places with the barber. So the barber didn't do it. He was just a neighborhood. Yeah. But he stepped out of his place. He didn't, he didn't retain his duty as the barber would have had to fight and defend your life. He has a family to worry about.

He took the oath. Okay. So for a moment I was like, what the fuck, that's right. The barbers out. Barbers out. I mean, there's probably, uh, okay. In the apartment, the police found bloody, the bloody clothes of the murderer. So he changed into a clean set of clothes before he left, uh, which is the, like also

reflects back to him, just chilling out like this, committing these terrible murders. And then just hanging out. Um, so they didn't, investigators didn't do a complete search of the premises, um, after the bodies were removed. So later on, that bloody razor was found on a neighbor's lawn and that razor that was used to kill the couple belonged to Andrew Maggio, who's the brother of the, of Joseph, the grocer who was murdered in his bed and Andrew owned a barber shop. Um, there were brother weird.

They were brothers. Okay. They are the people that found Joseph and his wife, Catherine, because they were like staying at home and not answering the phone or whatever, not doing what they were supposed to be doing. And the three brothers went over there and found their body's book. Um, so do his employee, Andrew's employee, Esteban Torres told the police that Maggio had removed the razor from his shop two days prior to the murder, explaining that he wanted

to have a nick honed from the blade. So the razor was out of the barber shop and had gone, like gotten to get fixed somewhere. So any, it's just out of the, it's in the mix now, I guess is what there is the point of that. Maggio, who lived in the adjoining apartment to his brother's residence, discovered the gruesome scene two hours after the attacks occurred. Um, and he blamed his failure to hear any noise related to the attacks. Um, and the early morning hours on his being drunk, cause he had returned home the night

before, um, from a celebration due to his departure to join the Navy. Police, however, were surprised that he failed to hear the intruder as he did make a forced entry into the home. Uh, so then Andrew Maggio, the brother of Joseph became the police chief's prime suspect. Um, but then he was released when, uh, investigators were convinced that his alibi held up. Um, he also told police that there was an unknown man, uh, seen lurking near the residence prior to the murders. Yeah.

Right. Uh, so then, so that was May 22nd, um, about a month later on June 27th on the early morning hours, Louise Bazumer and his, oh, Louis, sorry, Louis Bessumé. Let's say that cause they're all French back there in New Orleans. Yeah. Uh, Louis Bessumé and his mistress Harriet Lowe were attacked in the quarters at the back of his grocery store. This is grocer number two.

Uh-huh. Um, Bessumé was struck in the, uh, with a hatchet above his right temple, which resulted in a possible skull fracture, uh, and Harriet was hacked over the left ear and found unconscious when the police arrived. They were discovered shortly after seven a.m. in the morning, um, by John Zanka, who was the bakery, uh, truck driver, and he came to the grocery to, to make a delivery. And then he found both, uh, Louis Bessumé and his mistress Harriet Lowe in a puddle of their own blood.

Um, and the acts which had belonged to Bessumé was found in the bathroom of the apartment. Um, so Bessumé, so they lived and they, uh, he explained to the police that he'd been sleeping. He was bashed with a hatchet and then police arrest Louis Obokon, who was a 41 year old African-American man who had been employed in Bessumé's store weeks before the attacks, but there was no evidence, um, that proved that the man was guilty or even related to this, but they, uh, police arrested him nonetheless, uh, stating that he had, there were, had, that he had offered conflicting accounts of where he was the night of the murder or the

morning of the murder. Um, so then shortly after that, Harriet Lowe stated that she remembered, um, having been attacked by a light-skinned black man, um, but her statement was discounted by the police because of her head injury and because she was the mistress, she was an upstanding wife. Oh man. Um, and robbery was said to be the explanation and what Obokon's motive was except for nothing was removed from, um, from the Bessumé, Bessumé's home, right? Uh, so essentially what ends up happening is, um, oh no, uh, can that be hard?

Did you hear it? That's, I think it'll be like the ghost train just kind of faintly, there's a child screeching. That was like a bone chilling scream though. Should I throw something at the, off the balcony at them and those little fuckers, um, Mrs. Harriet Lowe then, then starts to become like sensationalized in the newspaper. She can't stop talking to the press. She's criticizing the police. And then at one point, and this is the mistress, this is the mistress and they, and they keep

making a story about it because he basically got caught with his mistress and was still married and this is the story. And this is the story, not the murder, um, well, it was all just in constantly in the paper. Right. The Times pick a sensationalized Lowe and her outspoken nature upon discovering that she was not the wife of Besseme, but a mistress, a charity hospital source discovered the scandal when Besseme asked to be directed to the room of Mrs. Harriet Lowe and was inevitably denied

access as no woman by that name was a patient. So it's like he's not in a relative. He can't visit her. Um, then, then his legal wife arrived from Cincinnati, Cincinnati in a couple days after the discovery and then which further inflamed the ongoing drama and she was pissed as fuck and she was like, I'll kill both y'all, um, two days later, you should take that please. Besseme was released, um, and the two lead investigators get demoted for, um, unacceptable police work.

Yes. Um, but then Besseme is, uh, arrested in August, 1918, um, as Harriet Lowe, who is dying in a charity hospital after a failed heart surgery, states that it was Louie who attacked her, um, with the hatchet, Louie being the brother, no, no, no, Louie Besseme is the, is the grosser is the guy that also got attacked. Okay. She basically is like, Hey, did it, whatever, um, but he was acquitted after 10 minutes. There was no proof and it was, they knew she was just kind of this lunatic, whatever, at

least that's the story that I got. Um, okay, so then August 5th, 1918, a 28 year old woman named Mrs. Schneider, who was eight months pregnant, was attacked in the early evening of her, um, hours on her house in Elmira street. She woked to find a dark figure standing over here, her and was bashed in the face repeatedly. Her scalp was cut open, her face is completely covered in blood. Um, she was discovered after midnight by her husband who had been returning from work. Um, and she was still alive.

Oh my God. And she claimed that she remembered nothing of the attack. She gave birth to a healthy baby girl two days after the incident, which is crazy. Um, she says nothing had been stolen from the home. Um, even though there was cash left out, um, the windows and doors, uh, were not forced open and, um, they put together that she was attacked with a lamp on an, on like a bedside table. Don't attack pregnant people.

I mean, don't attack anyone, but like this guy, this guy, right? This guy really wants to attack everyone as you will come to find out. Okay. So, uh, all right. So then five days later on August 10th, Joseph Romano, who's an elderly man living with his two nieces, um, the, the two nieces hear him make a noise in his room in their house that they live in together and they go in and discover that their uncle had taken a serious blow to the head.

Um, he has so two huge cuts in his head and they see the guy fleeing the scene. And as they walk in, but they can't tell if he, uh, is thin or fat. If he is dark skinned or light skinned, they can't really say anything for sure. They both have conflicting views, um, and even though this old man was seriously injured, he could walk to the ambulance, but he still died two days later because of the severe head trauma. Um, nothing was stolen. Um, they found a bloody axe in the backyard and they discovered that a panel had been

chiseled out of the back door and that's how he was getting into these houses. He was like just like going up to the back door and like basically just making a little like prying it open, essentially like chiseling a spot open and then going in and unlocking it. I think someone would hear that. Yeah. But it's there all asleep. Tip, tip, tap, tip, tap, tap, tap.

I still think he would have heard that. I mean, he would hope, he would hope that these guys didn't, um, so then, you know, then at this point, a man named John Dantonio, who was a retired Italian detective, started making public statements in which he hypothesized about this man who had committed these axe man murders. And he described the potential killer as an individual of dual personalities who killed without motive. And, um, he said that it could very likely be a normal law by a citizen who would be,

who was often overcome by an overwhelming desire to kill. And he later went on to describe the killer as a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hawley. I just can't even, yeah. Okay. So then on March 10th, um, 1919, so about six months later, eight months later, Charles, um, Court Miglia, um, an immigrant who lived with his wife and baby on the corner of Jefferson and Second Street, uh, in Gretna, Louisiana, which is a suburb of New Orleans. Um, there's screams coming from their house.

And so Grocer Orlando Giordano ruches across the street to investigate. And he sees that, um, Charles Court of Miglia, his wife, Rosie, and their infant daughter had all been attacked by the unknown intruder. Um, Rosie stood in the doorway with a head wound, um, clutching her deceased daughter. So this axe wielding motherfucker just goes in and kills everybody, no matter their age. Um, I guess it sounds like you have to be a girl. I think Grocer of some kind that qualifies you or Italian, but, um, just kills everybody in the, like in the apartment or in the room, what the fuck?

It's super crazy. Okay. Um, and again, nothing, no, they weren't robbed, um, anything about that. Yeah. Nothing. Nothing stolen. The back door was chiseled. The bloody axe was found on the back porch.

He like does it and then just leave it and walk away and I can't wait to find out who this motherfucker is. Okay. And then the police are sent a letter or a letter gets published in the newspaper. I don't know the order of how it got sent, but this is what it said. It said it was a postmarked from hell, March 13th, 1919. It reads esteemed mortal. They have never caught me and they never will.

They have never seen me for I am invisible, even as the ether that surrounds your earth. I'm not a human being, but a spirit and a demon from the hottest hell. I am what you are linians and your foolish policemen call the axe man. When I see fit, I shall come and claim other victims. I alone know whom they shall be. I shall leave no clue except my bloody axe, be smeared with blood and brains of he whom I have sent below to keep me company. If you wish, you may tell the police to be careful not to rile me.

Of course I am a reasonable spirit. I have, I take no offense at the way they have conducted their investigations in the past. In fact, they have been so utterly stupid as to not only amuse me, but his satanic majesty, Francis Joseph, but tell them to beware. Let them not try to discover what I am for it were better that they were never born than to occur the wrath of the axe man. I don't think there's any need of such warning for I feel the police will always always dodge

me as they have in the past. They are wise and know how to keep all away from harm. Undoubtedly you Orlinians think of me as the most horrible murderer which I am, but I could be much worse if I wanted to. If I wished, I could pay a visit to your city every night. At will I could slay thousands of your best citizens for I am in close relationship with the angel of death. Now to be exact, at 1215 earthly time on next Tuesday night, I am going to pass over New

Orleans. In my infinite mercy, I am going to make a little proposition to you people. Here it is. I am very fond of jazz music and I swear by all the devils in the nether regions that every person shall be spared in whom a jazz band is in full swing at the time I have just mentioned. If everyone has a jazz band going well then so much the better for you people. One thing is certain and that is that some of your people who do not jazz it on Tuesday

night. What the fuck? If there be any will get the axe. Well, as I am cold and craved the warmth of my native Tartarus and it is about time I leave your earthly home. I will cease my discourse hoping though we'll publish this that it may go well with the I have been and will be the worst spirit that ever existed either in fact or realm of fancy the axe man.

Jesus. He's chatty. My God. So it reminds me of Richard Ramirez's big speech in court where he's just like I am the where it's that thing of like, you know, he is not just a man anymore. He's like become a God and all that kind of psychotic stuff. Yes. Very psychotic.

But also very biblical. Oh, yeah. But also the, yeah. And the whole thing, the whole time I was like, well, the more you talk, the more, the more you write and the more information you give, you're just giving away and you're more clues. So shut the fuck up. Yeah.

Yeah. Doesn't it seem like he has a bit of a like, because this is not essentially the story of Passover. Oh, yeah. You'll pass over. You'll pass over the house if they have jazz music. That's exactly it. Isn't that why you guys have so much fun on Passover?

We have the best time. No, I was like, this is written by a fucking, a record label exact who's like, once it's jazz music to be playing, playing who do not jazz it on Tuesday night. That's our new like Tuesday night club at whatever bar. We got to jazz it. Jazz it. And nobody likes jazz. So everyone's like a little unhappy.

Yeah. But it's like, well, we'll kill you. If you don't count. We just got to do it. Let's get through these next 15 minutes. Well, apparently so everyone jazzed it on that Tuesday night and no one was killed. Shut up. Yeah.

It actually worked. Excuse me. But then of course, as it always, as it always does, it always but thens, there's so many but thens. August 10th, Steve Boca, a grocer is attacked in his bedroom as he sleeps. Wait, is he really purposely getting grocers? Well, yes. Cause they all are.

Um, they. Man, what a bummer. So I mean, it's so specific, but it's, um, they say grocer here, but I also think it means people who keep stores. So it's like, sometimes it's a guy that has, um, like a grocery store at a bar or pharmacy or some kind of. Yeah. Okay.

It doesn't necessarily mean like the big thing of lettuce that's on the sidewalk per say. It's like a grocer, they used to call them. Right. The green grocer, but there, it is people that own stores weird, super fucking weird. Um, okay. So then he, he wakes in the night, finds a dark figure looming over him when he regains consciousness. He runs into the street, um, finds that his head has been cracked open.

Uh, what have you found that I found that I found my head to be cracked open when I need help here. So he goes to his neighbor's house, uh, collapses, then, um, then the neighbor calls the police. Nothing's taken from the home, a panel on the back door had been chiseled away. Um, Boca recovered from his injuries, but he had again, no memory. And that's every single person that survives knows nothing about what happened. Yeah. Head injuries.

Uh, September 13th, it happens again. Sarah Lawman was attacked on the night of September, September 13th. Her neighbors came to check on her, um, because she lived alone, uh, and they hadn't seen her in a while. They broke into her house when she didn't answer and discovered the 19 year old lying unconscious on her bed suffering from a severe head injury, missing several teeth. Oh, this guy goes straight for the fucking right to the face. Noggin.

Yeah. They say that all of the injuries were, um, neck, head, and only a couple had on their defensive wounds on their arms. Most of him, he would just get in there and chop very precisely and sometimes he would obliterate the face of the man and sometimes he would rape the wife. All right. Oh. Um, but here's so, uh, bloody access discovered on the front lawn.

She recovered from her injuries. No idea. Yeah. October 27th. Mike Pepitone. Oh. Is attacked. Did you ask any Pepitone?

I put in a call. He won't talk to me. Um, that'd be amazing. I've never heard that last name before. I know. Anywhere. I know. Um, so he sees, his wife is awakened by a noise and walks into, uh, the bedroom, walks

to the bedroom door just as a large axe wielding man is fleeing the scene. Mike had been struck in the head, was covered in his own blood, blood spatter covered the majority of the room, um, but the, but Mrs. Pepitone is unable to explain any of the killers, describe the killer in any way. I did read something that said Mrs. Pepitone, Mrs. Pepitone went on to shoot the man she believed, uh, was standing there. So this is a different story than the end of this one, which is basically she didn't know and she had nothing to explain, say to the cops.

There's another story that said Mrs. Pepitone knew who it was and after, um, her husband, uh, uh, like a couple of weeks after the murder, um, uh, she shot the man in the street and then the murder stopped happening. Uh, that's right. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. And then she herself was convicted of murder and was in jail for 10 years.

What the shit? Who knows about any of that? So, okay. So that's the, those are, that's the full realm of the, um, of the axe man of New Orleans murders. Okay. So this is a documentary on the YouTube that was actually very good, although it seemed very like kind of homemade self produced.

The guy that was narrating it, I don't think his British accent was his original accent of life. Of course. It had a little bit of this feel to it. It was, um, what's the word when you try too hard? You're an actor. Yep. It was had a real actor feel.

Effect. Effected? Effected. Yeah. But it's really good. Good information. I could be till I'm wrong about the accent. Um, also it doesn't mean it's not real.

Good. That's right. But here's the thing. Every once in a while this, it's like a 50 minute documentary and every once in a while when he's talking about a different fact, they'll just be like a sound effective screaming. So it's just like almost like haunted house style like our podcast is with the children screaming outside. I guess it is effective.

Um, so it's not, you know, effective and effective. It's affecting. It's affected. Okay. This documentary basically theorizes that the ax man of New Orleans actually was killing for long before the New Orleans attacks and after. And he, so they just start saying, because from 1879 to 1922 in America, there were lots and lots of ax murderers where a guy broke into the house by chiseling the back door

chiseling in the middle of the night, killing an entire family, not robbing them using their own acts to do it with eating before or after hanging out in the house. Usually a farmer, usually it's like a whole family and it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere where it takes a couple of days. Rural. Brutal as fuck. No, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, rural, yeah. Okay.

And this is just, so the guys are basically saying these aren't, this is so long ago and this is like pre any of the like, you know, police procedural knowledge that we have now, there also could be more and people just haven't connected the fact. But okay, so in 1879, an elderly couple, this is somewhere in Georgia, it's a rainy night, they're attacked, almost decapitated and when the police investigate the crime scene, they find that someone had been hiding in upstairs room for minimum of two days because there was smoke, cigarettes and human feces in there. So someone had snuck into their house, hung out and then waited for the night time to

come downstairs. I always want to live in a small house, I don't want there to be rooms that just don't get looked into. Yeah, no attics. Uh-uh. No. And also, you could also like release, you know, I don't know, some kind of super dangerous animal every night just to take a run around the house.

Cool. Yeah. I was going to say cobra, but that'd be too scary. How about a Siamese, a cross-eyed Siamese guy? Yeah, he's very intimidating. So this is, it was their ax, the ax was left in the fireplace, there was no robbery, even though there was a stash of silver on like the kitchen counter. Five years later in 1884 in Austin, Texas, a woman named Molly Smith is attacked in her

bed with an ax and then the attacker pulls her outside into the backyard, rapes her and murders her outside. Weird. Several months later, Eliza Shelley is also murdered with an ax, her head is split open. And on that one, the police noted that none of the dogs in the neighborhood barked and there were dogs that were tied up right next door and they didn't bark or have a reaction of any kind the entire night. So it was a silent night on both of those nights.

Weird. And that freaked the police out really bad because it's like usually, you just get a little something. That always, that note always freaks me out because it's clearly someone that the dogs know. Yes. And that's been doing kind of doing that groundwork. Yeah.

To like make sure the dogs are like, he's going to throw them food or something. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's. So four more people are killed in this same way, slaughtered in their beds with their own ax, no robbery, the weapons left in the house until Christmas Eve of 1885. A couple is attacked and the bloodhound couldn't get a scent. Like they gave the blood had a thing to smell that was from the ax left behind and they couldn't

get a scent. And they were like the best bloodhounds around or whatever. So again, it was that thing where the cops are like, maybe this is a demon, like whatever. Yeah. Or I guess this was before. So they would be like, huh, maybe some demon's going to write us a letter in 15 years. Oh, also here in, in like a couple other places, they found bare footprints in the blood. Oh, weird.

In 1897, this is 12 years later now. Up in Paradise Ridge, Tennessee, the aid family, a neighbor sees the aid family farmhouse on fire. And so he goes over to see what's happening and not only is their house on fire, but their barn and a couple of other buildings on their ranch. And when they put the fire out, they find the entire family has been murdered with an ax. The parents, the, their daughter who was in her twenties, the son who was 13 and a neighbor

girl who was 10. I don't think that's him. What's that? I don't think it's him. That one. The killer ate either before or after the killing. He hung out in the house and the neighbor girl, they think the way they traced it, she got away and he caught her, killed her and threw her back into the burning.

Oh my God. 14 years after that in, I cannot see what that says, something or again, near Portland, near Portland. All right. The Hill family is murdered in their house. The children are murdered in their beds. It's everything is exactly the same. So it's, it's just basically they've pulled all these crimes where like an entire family,

no robbery, ax, head wounds, all of it. A month after that, um, in Rainier, Washington, Archie Cobble and his wife are murdered in their bed with an ax. Um, in 1911 in Colorado Springs, um, a man walks into the home of Alice Bunchen, I think it says, uh, and murdered her and her six year old daughter and, and her three year old son. And when her sister went to visit, she found the bodies. She ran outside and screamed for help and everybody in the neighborhood came running

except a family that lived next door, the Wayne family. And so they went to check on them and the wife, husband and one year old baby had all been slaughtered in their beds and then the beds were made up after them. Like the killer, killer had killed them and then tucked them back into bed for a fine. Um, so it looked like they were sleeping. Both of those cases, no robbery. Both houses were locked from the inside 13 days after that in Monmouth, Illinois. The first Presbyterian, um, church is not open for the service on Sunday.

So everybody calls the caretaker who doesn't answer. They go to the caretakers house. Um, and he, sorry, Mr. Danson is the caretaker. He, his wife and their teen daughter are murdered in their beds. There's no robbery. Two weeks later in L, Ellsworth, Kansas, Ellsworth, Kansas, um, the Sherman family hasn't been seen for a while. A neighbor that's worried about them because they weren't answering their phone goes to

visit all five of the shermons have been murdered with an ax in their house. The police family acts and the phone, um, was wrapped with a, uh, piece of someone's clothing was wrapped around the phone and they, the police later realized that it was probably because the neighbor was calling over and over and so he wrapped that. So he wouldn't have to hear the phone. Silence. Yeah. Creepy.

Yes. Um, two weeks later in Mount Pleasant, Iowa, um, Mr. JB Jordan leaves for work. He doesn't lock the kitchen door. Their eldest son is upstairs. He hears his mother scream. He runs downstairs and finds that she's been attacked in her bed with an ax. Um, uh, she has an injury to her head, but she survives. But if remembers nothing, nothing is, they're not robbed and, um, nobody sees anything.

Um, eight months later in Paola, Kansas, a young couple in their early twenties, the Hudson's hadn't been seen, neighbors checked, they're murdered in their bed. And that night, um, a family in the same town wakes to the sound of a lamp crashing to the floor and, uh, the father goes downstairs to see what it is and he sees a man leaving their house. Oh my God. Um, less than a week later, and I think I'm pronouncing this right. In Valeska, Iowa, it's the Valeska ax murderers.

Remember the, the, there was somebody that brought us a bag of stuff from the Valeska. Yes. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. Do you know, Steven? Um, Valeska. Okay. Uh, so this is the most, this is one of the most famous ax murder cases, but I didn't realize that they're there.

The theory is basically this is one guy because this, the Valeska ax murder house. So it's the Moore family. Was it like the, the murders from, uh, the Trim and Capote? Similar. Okay. Yeah. Where, where they just killed that family for no reason, but this is, um, it's their whole family.

They'd gotten back from church and then nobody saw them for days, but they did see, um, smoke coming out of the chimney, but they just didn't see them out on their farm doing their chores. So the neighbors were just like, what's, that's weird. So after three days, they go check the entire family has been murdered with axes in their beds plus two little girls who were there for a sleepover that were neighbor girls. So eight people were murdered in this house with axes. And he, they found that the man, um, had been hiding at every mirror in the house was covered with a piece of clothing, um, nothing had been stolen.

Uh, the killer, um, definitely spent at least two days there. Lots of like had made food, left a bunch of stuff out, um, and he, they found proof again that he had waited in the attic for two days and until nighttime. So he could come out and surprise them and murder them. Um, and then in 1914, uh, in Blue Island, Illinois, a family is found. This is two years later, a family is found murdered in their bed. And then that brings us up to the 1918 in New Orleans. And then four years later in Germany, so then in the 1919 murder at Christmas Eve was the

last one, right? The Peppetown with a chick shot at him, right? Supposedly shot and killed somebody. And then the murders ended, right? But in Germany, there was a farmer who saw a set of footprints, this story in the snow leading to his house, but not away. This is the craziest story. He searches his whole house, top to bottom, doesn't find anything, goes to bed that night,

either that night or the next night, and then he's murdered. He and his family are murdered and it's the exact same thing. And that guy hides in their house, I think, right? Yes. He's, he's hidden in their house, but they, he, they couldn't find where, um, all of the bodies in this were covered, uh, with sheets or, um, some of them are out in the barn. So they were covered in piles of hay, um, they, uh, he stayed through the weekend and there was no robbery.

So it was exactly the same MO as all of these other ones. So basically, so it's just saying it could be this German immigrant, because on, um, and the Voleska axe murder house, there was a note written in German under the table that was left behind. And there was another, uh, one of the women that survived in the earlier ones heard him speaking in German. So there was a theory that he was a German, um, immigrant who kind of did this for, you know, what it seems like 20, over 20, maybe 30 years, then takes a boat back to Germany.

He's going to chill out. And then four years later, he can't wait anymore and he does it again or has been doing it. And they just never got. Yes. I just wonder if in town there was anyone who's had like been away if they had known to ask that. Um, you mean in Germany? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's super crazy. It's so extreme. So then this is the best part, but I don't, uh, I don't get how it connects. It connects in this documentary perfectly because the guy is going like, yeah. And it's like, in 1994, but it's super awesome anyway, even if it's not real.

So basically a guy, they're, they're, they have an old, um, uh, Navy ship that they're basically parting out because it's like done for it's retired or whatever they call that. And so this guy was his job to go through this Navy ship before they take it all apart and take pictures and record and basically do a report on what the status of the ship was and, uh, give, um, inventory so they know what should be saved to begin with. Can you imagine being alone on a fucking Navy ship? Why alone? And also there was, there was some extra things where I was like, hmm, we're, we're gilding

the lily here where it was like, right? Because he, you know, the, the whole ship was off. So he had a flashlight. Right. Then he turned the flashlight off. And it was said that he's haunted. His car. I mean, yeah.

His camera. Yeah. But even still when he turned all the pictures in and it was hundreds and hundreds of pictures, he got a frantic call back from like headquarters or whatever. And they were like, who's the old man with the ax in that picture? Oh my God. So then they send him the picture. Oh my God.

Are you going to show me? Yeah. Right. Shut the fuck up. It's real. Oh my God. I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry.

I'm going to cry. Let me see here. Oh, okay. Show Stephen. I dropped the phone. That is. No. I want to cry.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Stephen, don't look. That's the creepiest, scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. Chills. Chills. Right.

What can people, what do people like look up? Axe man Navy ship. That's exactly what I put in. Oh my God. Old man, ax. Oh, and look. I don't want it. There's a close up.

I don't want it. Give it to me. For everybody else, we'll post this, but it's basically, you know, when you do, you see like a ghost, a ghost investigator show and they do a thing where they'll circle something in a picture and you're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah. This is clearly a man on this ship with an ax in his hand. The close up is less convincing to me, honestly, like it looks like the guy's wearing like

a mask of like that commercial with the, um, like an old man mask, but the six flags guy that dances are far away and it's definitely an ax far away and like, yeah, that's it looks like something you wouldn't notice until you saw the photo kind of a thing. Well, also, I love the idea too close. I love the idea of, um, this old guy is so good at like evading the police and getting away with stuff that he knows to like, Oh, I'm just going to go live on this old ship that they haven't parted out yet. Totally.

Like that idea does link together well for me. And then they, at the end of this documentary, I highly recommend. And again, you just go put in the ax man of New Orleans and it'll come up. It's the only one that's like 50 minutes long. But they, they start listing all of the other unrelated unsolved, but full family ax murders where there was no robbery and like basically all of those qualifiers that I kept repeating. And there were probably like eight of them additionally that were just in random cities. And I, what I would love to do, and I'm sure somebody has, because they said somewhere

it said they were all near railroad tracks. So this guy could have just been hobo hobo style hopping on, hopping on a train. And just go it because he really does clearly is just a drifter that's going from place to place. And what a perfect way to be a murderer. You do it, jump on a train. You were never there. I'm wondering if there's some like, you know, a German fairy tale that has to do with like

all the weird shit that was in that letter. Yeah. You know, like he mentioned specific places that I'd never heard of, like in regards to hell. So I wonder if like, there's some connection there. Yeah. I wonder if they've done any kind of like the studying Jack the Ripper style stuff about it.

Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea it was this like, I found that to be so fascinating because, because it is one of those things like the Valeska ax murder house and that whole, it's so crazy that it is a standalone murder story. Yeah. And it could possibly be connected to this other, like just a crazy serial killer that if, if it is this guy, he killed 61 people of the cases they know about.

As a standalone murder, it's like, well, it's someone they knew or that had a beef with someone or that, you know, they were partners with and business. And so they wanted it to himself, but if it's not, then that's even, then that makes almost more sense. Yeah. It's just the house by the railroad tracks where he felt like jumping off. Sure. Like the first place.

Needed food. Oh. Well, that's kind of interesting. Terrifying. I'm sure there's plenty more other people know that photo is fucking horrifying. Get ready to enjoy it. All right. People of New Orleans.

People of New Orleans. Okay. We're talking about the lights being depressing randomly. We had a pause. Yeah. We have to have a, we have to have a human break. And I made Steven turn the kitchen lights on because it's dusk, which depresses the shit out of me.

Um, yeah, I was saying that it's, you know, what gets me is I have a friend who has that same thing where he has a whole system of, he has to go around that house and turn everything on like when the sun is beginning to go down. Me too. It's not even like when it's down. Um, I have the opposite thing of when I get up in the morning, if there's a lamp on, it, it, it's that thing of why are we even doing this feeling where it's like no one turned the lights off last night or like no one's minding the shop feeling that makes me really

mad. It never, it never got shut down. Yes. I feel the same way about when I wake up and come out and the house is messy. Yep. Um, it's funny about that, I was talking about that is when therapy the other day, we kind of paste it, like piece it together that that might be why between like three o'clock and seven o'clock, I always want to go have a drink and like have a happy hour, like pick

friends up from work and we go have a drink and it's like, I want to make this part a celebration because, but then after that I'm fine. And I just put out a suggestion that you've probably already talked about, which is three o'clock and a seven o'clock is the, uh, um, latch key time where you're home by yourself after school, before you're, anybody gets home for more. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a rough time. Yeah. It's total latch key. Watch key shit. Yeah. That to me, that time is like three to seven is all about, um, watching TV. I'm not interested in watching, but we won't not watch TV like if there's nothing on back in the time where there was times where there was nothing on, but we'd still just sit there

and force ourselves to watch like Muppet Baby's Star Trek. Yes. It was always reruns of Star Trek, which my sister and I didn't like, but we were like, well, there's nothing else on, and now I'm like an expert because of that. I've seen all of them 15 times. Yeah. I've seen a fucking shit ton. Next generation.

Oh, every episode I've seen. It seems like everything in adult life is just ways of kind of trying to give the child at that time a little bit of a bottle and like, shut the fuck up. I mean, well, that's why I like drinking booze or anything. It's like everybody has a thing, but you're just kind of, it's almost like you're trying to go back and be like, somebody should have been here and given you this. Oh, somebody should have like, you know what I mean, somebody should have come and rubbed your back a little bit and made you actual food.

That's my, that's a lot of my therapy is, yeah, is samezers. Yeah. You should do like your fucking patterns that you keep repeating until adulthood in some weird way that I'm now trying to like, you're now doing your best to fucking break. Yeah. But it feels fraudulent. It doesn't. It feels like everything's going to fall apart.

Apart, apart all the time, hanging by a string, all the time, and that's why we like podcasts and murder because that's true. That is true. I can preach in it. Truth. Okay. Speaking of, hey, Karen, are you ready for a family annihilator? Yes.

Ready for William Bradford Bishop. Oh, okay. Oh, Bill Bishop from down the street. Billy Bish. Bill Bish. Real bad Bish. Did I say that right? No.

Bill Brad Bish. Okay. Anyways, on the morning of March 1st, 1976, in good old Bethesda, Maryland, William Bradford Bishop, who's a 39-year-old Yale graduate, and, oh my God, say that with more disdain in your voice. Did I say it? Yale graduate. I didn't even do that on purpose.

College. You think you're better than me? Fucking college? Fucking, oh. You're not better than me because you fell in one to school with Ivy on it. Oh, you were a Yale-y graduate. And United States Foreign Service Officer learns that he is not getting the promotion that he expected.

Uh-oh. Uh-oh. He tells his secretary he might be getting the flu and leaves work. He withdraws $400 from his bank, drives to Sears, and buys a gas can and a sledge hammer. Uh-oh. A sledge hammer or a ball-peen hammer, which you've mentioned before and I had no idea what it was. But now I know.

The sledge hammers are big, and ball-peen hammers are normal hammers. Right. I believe. So I think you're right. So I don't know how those could have been. So he buys a shovel and a pitchfork, then he heads home to his wife, mother, and three children. Now, if you're working at that Sears, you're like, I think this guy might be starting his

own hardware store using our stuff. Yeah. Going home to garden? How about he wants you to mark his name down? Yeah. Something. Make a list. Yeah.

Just follow him home and make sure that he doesn't. Someone do something. Annihilate. Uh, the next day. So the next, he does all that shit. The next day, about a six-hour drive from Bethesda and about five miles from Columbia, North Carolina, in a wooded, swampy forest area, a forest ranger's dispatch to an area where smoke is rising from the trees.

There he finds five burned bodies. Oh. The burned bodies aren't identified for a week until a neighbor of the bishops calls the police worried that he hadn't seen the family in a week. When the police enter the Bradford home, they find a blood bath with spattered blood on the floors and walls, and the children's room is covered ceiling to floor in blood. And it's then that the shovel from the scene of the burning bodies is traced back to a hardware store in Bethesda, and the police make the connection.

You mean a Sears? No. Sorry. Just kidding. A Sears Robuxing Company at the time. We're going to be specific. It is actually Douglas Sears Robux in 1976. You know what I'm saying?

I mean, yeah. All right. So police think that Bradford killed his wife, who was his high school sweetheart Annette first, followed by his mother, Lobella, who was returning home from walking the family's golden retriever, Leo. Spoiler alert. Leo's okay. Oh, good.

Okay. Mom and wife so far. Dead. Very much dead. Legend. Bad, bad, bad. And he kills his three boys, 15-year-old Brad, 10-year-old Brunton, and five-year-old Jeffrey, were killed while they slept in their beds in an upstairs bedroom.

All of them bludgeoned. Here's a fucking horrifying part. The detective says that in his 12 years as an officer, it was one of the worst, it was the worst crime scene he had ever observed, and he notes that there were hammer marks on the ceiling above the top bunk bed in one of the boys' bedrooms, which told how many times and how viciously Bishop had struck his son. So in the back and then blow, he fucking hits the ceiling. Yeah.

Dude. Yeah. So, a massive manhunt ensues for Bishop. The family station wagon that was used to transport the bodies to be burned was found abandoned in a parking lot, hundreds of miles west from where the bodies were found. And Bishop's also identified by the clerk of a sporting goods store in Jacksonville, North Carolina, using his credit card to purchase Conrish shoes the same day that the bodies were found.

What was he coming to Silver Lake? I know. I added that because I just thought it was so... Oh, that detail. Yeah. I thought you meant like we were making the same joke. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's super.

But some articles said tennis shoes, and I'm like, no, Conrish, that's like a specific thing because we all own them. Yeah, that's right. Also, it sounds like, because he was... Did you say he was in the Navy or something? He was in... He... Some kind of military guy.

So, he's trying to play a different character, right? Sure. He's blending in. Hippie shit. Hippie shit. He's trying to bring his hippie shit to the West Coast. Yeah. Or be a skater.

You know what I mean? And that man turned out to be... Yeah. Who was the skater? I can't think of anyone because I don't know. Tony Hawk. I was going to say Peralta. Oh.

Stacey Peralta. Yeah. Shit. Yeah. Stephen. I'm a poser. I'm a poser. So, poser.

You're not posing to be a fucking skater. I'm trying to make people think I skate. Hey, bro. Okay. Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. Conrish shoes. Same day the bodies are found. And it's also said that he had the dog on a leash with him.

So, he didn't... And when I first read this whole article, it was that the dog was killed too. And I'm like, people are not going to fucking like that. Right. But the dog is on a leash and he seems to be okay. Anyways, after that, what are you thinking? I just was... It's just, do you think people do that because it's...

The animal is the most innocent in the, almost like the innocent food pyramid of like, it can't talk, it can't do anything for itself. Like it's not necessary at that point. I mean, listen. No, I... I'm not a five-year-old child too, but... No, it's... But that's just it.

It's like a tiny child being murdered by its own parent is horrifying, but I do think that stuns people into silence, but then if like, you say the words golden retriever, people are like, what the fuck? Like, why... Like, why would you... You can even just approach it. Like you don't even want us to talk about the five-year-old. It somehow makes it seem like they're even more of a monster, but there's this weird bit

of humanity that he kept... He didn't even leave the dog in the house. He like, brought the dog with him. Yeah. It's weird. Kurt... I think it's Kurt Bronler has a joke about how Hitler had a dog. That doesn't seem right.

Not that Kurt Bronler, but that Hitler would have a dog. Look, they get that, but that dog probably loved him. I mean, well, I bet you as a German shepherd. It's true. What the fucking things? I love German shepherd. I do too. I do too.

I do too. My mom hates them because of Germany. Anyways. Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Goes cold. Okay, after that, citing, the trail goes cold. And since Bishop spoke six languages fluently, knew how to fly a plane, and had lived throughout the world and possibly had fake IDs because of his work at the State Department, finding

him didn't look good. Law enforcement tried to get his psychotherapy records from his shrink, who Bishop had been seeing once or twice a week for five years, but the shrink refused saying, you know, doctor patient privilege. But it's been said that the doctor was so shaken by Bishop's crime that he quit his practice, which is, can you imagine not spotting that for five fucking years or having spotted it and not got anything about it? Like that's horrible.

What's worse? Yeah. I think. Yeah. Yeah. Not having done anything about it. Like thinking that you were wrong or doubting yourself or something. Or just being like, am I, but after five years, I feel like five years of, you just have to

be, if you can manipulate a psychotherapist for five years, you're some fucking craziness. Yeah. So Bishop is a military man. I bet you he wasn't all that forthcoming to, isn't that, isn't that kind of a personality trait of you're not really supposed to be that way in the military? Well, that's funny that you say that because I read something that said that if, if you were in whatever rank he was in and you were going to psychotherapy, that was grounds for dismissal.

Oh shit. So on top of that, he probably wasn't, didn't also want to be like, yeah, and I want to murder my family. So like it couldn't even get out that he was in there. Whoa. So that's so fucked up. It's so fucked up. So getting help for being in like a conflict based business where like, you could have

PTSD for whatever reason. You're not, you cannot be in there. Or you're traveling the fucking world and your family's home and there's, it's rough at home or you have money issues. I can't be like that anymore. Or you got left at home between three and seven every goddamn day of the week. Like you were just some sort of, and you had no idea what time your parents were coming home and you were sick of peanut butter sandwiches.

You were eating so much toast that you felt sick. Oh, toast. God, we ate a lot of toast. We ate so much toast. So much. Cheese toasted this day is one of my favorite things, but of course my brother would eat all the fucking cheese in the house, so it would be peanut butter toast. We would do, my sister got really into making quesadillas, but she wouldn't make me one.

That was, you know, anything she could pull away, anything she could hold over me. But quesadilla at that point was a tortilla with a slice of American cheese in the microwave for a minute. Older. Yes. Yeah. She would get fancy and put it in a pan. Oh, she thinks she's fucking, yeah, fucking Julia Childs.

She thought she was going for it. And I was like, clear the area. I'm trying to butter some crackers, like basically all we're trying to do is eat crackers. I love it. Stacking up buttered crackers and then drinking seven up and it's just basically like a whole one in your mouth at once. I was like, pardon me, I'm planning, I'm trying to get fat for junior high. Oh my God.

Clear the area. I have so many feelings. Yeah. Right now. The easier one, which is family annihilators. Yeah. All right. So on March 19th, 1976, a grand jury indicts Bishop on five counts of first degree murder.

But to this day, Karen, Bishop has never been found. Whoa. Yep. So there's this photo of him from when he was young that they all show and he looks a little bit like Lee Harvey Oswald meets John Belushi. If you can picture that. Oh. It's weird.

He's kind of hot. But then he has this weird, like smug, like tight, close smile that looks creepy since you know what he did. And then they made up one of those busts of him of like what he would look like if he were older and it's super creepy as well. And he, I'm sure that he's Hugh Hefner, like it's Hugh Hefner. It's so, it's Hugh fucking Hefner. Is the bust the future age?

Can you, can you pull that up? It's a William Bradford Bishop bust. It's just a cover of Playboy Magazine. Stephen, no. Not Hugh Hefner's picture. He just pulls that up. All right. So there have been three credible sightings of Bishop.

One was in July, 1978, a Swedish woman who had worked with Bishop before the murders said she spotted him. Stephen's got it. Right? Am I right? I mean, let me see. It's totally looks like, is it Franklin Jella? No.

He's the guy that always plays like a, he's just like, hey kid, he's Hugh Hefner, right? Yes. He looks exactly like Hugh Hefner. He's missing like the, the bathrobe. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. He's like, if Hugh Hefner had a trucker brother, that's what that guy looks like.

Crazy. Okay. July, 1978, Swedish woman who had worked with him prior to the murders, she said she spotted him twice in a public park in Stockholm, Sweden, when, in a span of a week. And she stated that she was absolutely certain that it was Bishop. Then in, and this is interesting because it's all people who knew him, you know. So in July, 1979, he was reported to have been seen by a former U.S. State Department colleague in a restroom in Sorrento, Italy.

The colleague greeted him who had, who said, and he said he was bearded. He had personally believed to be Bishop eye to eye and he asked the man impulsively, hey, you're Brad Bishop, aren't you? And the man panicked suddenly, responding in a distinctly American accent, saying, oh God, no. And then he ran swiftly out of the restroom and fled, but he started shaking and panicking when he asked him. This is all like kind of confirmed that these could actually be sightings.

It wasn't just like, Randosta. Like hokey bullshit. On September 19th, it was a little, it was kind of funny. Yeah. It wasn't unsolved mysteries, but it was, you know, all right, on September 19th, I'm sure this was unsolved mysteries too. On September 19th, 1994 in Basel, Switzerland, a neighbor who had known a bishop in a family

in Bethesda reports that she had seen Bishop from a few feet away while on vacation. The neighbor described Bishop as well-groomed. So all people who knew him well enough to like recognize him. Then, and I thought this was so exciting, a John Doe who was struck by a car while walking down the highway in 1981, who was a person who appeared to be homeless, ended up getting exhumed after a local resident thought that the bust of Bishop looked like this dough. And I fucking lost my line. It looks so much like him that you are sure it's him and it's fucking not.

But I think they fucked up the DNA test because it's fucking him. Wow. Yeah. Look up the dead body. It doesn't match. Okay. There's also, of course, been talk of Bishop being a victim of the MK ultra mind control experience by the CIA that went awry causing him to kill his family, which is like, okay.

Is that the right time frame? The 60s, 70s? Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. I feel like they dosed a lot of people on acid back then, right? I think so. But that's so close to the 80s.

I feel like it was shut down by then. But I mean, look, if people theorize that it's because it wasn't, and also it was a secret government thing. I mean, Karen, it's probably still going on. So this day. Yeah. Stephen. Stephen is an MK ultra something.

I knew it. That's what it is. That's probably what it is. You're like, and his mustache is a fucking recording device. It's like, no, because no matter how much we make fun of it, he won't shave it. So up in there. I love it. He fucking sets the two hugest microphones up every time, but his mustache is the recording

device. You got me. You got me. You hear the shit we say when it's not recording and the shit we actually make him edit out. That's the like, we are Russian operative spies. It's true. Oh, well, I do love MK ultra is if, if you know, somebody was asking if something could get solved.

Right. Somebody was asking us that the other day, like conversationally. And I've, it's always like, we always say like John Bonet or blah, blah, blah, whatever. But then just thinking about that, like I would love the real deal report on MKL. The list of things that have happened because of it. Yeah. That's a good one. Like the real, you know, there was like the one guy that they, the family is like, there's

no way he would have committed suicide. And it was like, he jumped out of a window, right? And there was a million of those and they're always like, those, that would be good. Yeah. It's so fascinating. It's also like, it's an, it's easy though, you know what I mean? Like it's one of those things where it's like, oh yeah, she was a runaway. And it's like, no, it's much more, it's much more simple than that or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Or that's simple. Okay. And it was blah, blah, blah. I think it's more likely that he was depressed. He was also having financial trouble and that he was a fucking dick. If he were still alive today, he would be 80 years old.

Oh. So he could still be alive. Yeah. So everyone go, go find Hugh Huffner's creepy brother. So I, God, that's interesting to be guilty of a crime and run to Stockholm, Sweden and still run into someone that you know, because like, how annoying is that, right? And because he was in the military, he probably went to military-ish places, right? Like when he places he knew from having gone there before from, for his job, you think

he wouldn't though, because, because then people recognize him there. Yeah. But he also, um, he also spent some time in Africa before the murders too. So that seems like the most, I think the most logical place to go because, but he wasn't black, right? No. So he would stand out probably too much. I think there's a lot of white people there.

Um, true, true, true now, I have Parthite and all that. I should. Okay. I just immediately was like, yeah, he won't go stand on the Savannah Karen. He's not going to just go like, he's not going to walk into a national geographic special and then be like, hope nobody finds me here near the zebras who are trying to drink water during a drought. Yeah.

This tribe, wrong with my brain. This tribe let me come in and join the fray. But I mean, I guess what I meant was there's those places where like, it's almost like you would, of all the places you would have to list, okay, this guy ran, where'd he go? He'd went to LA, he went to California, people go, always go west. Instead he went east and then he went to a place where like Stockholm, Sweden is just like nobody really. You would just blend.

Yeah. There's a lot of places you could go. You know, it was the time when like you did, you could, you didn't need a passport or you know, your name didn't even have to be on the ticket and he had a week start because they didn't, a week head, head start because you know, they didn't identify the bodies until then. Yeah. He was all free and clear.

What a creepy fucking, he didn't just murder them and leave their bodies. He murdered them, drove six hours away, dug a fucking shallow hole and put the gasoline that he had bought that day on the bodies and lit them. His mom, his high school sweetheart and his three children. That's almost the same as John List. It's so much like John List. Except, and not to say my guy was better than your guy, but John List shot everybody in the back of that.

Nobody knew anything was happening. He just took them out from behind. I think he might have as well, if you're going to back in. Well, no, I was just thinking of like, yours has a good, I guess they both have good closures where it's like, the money was in the ceiling the whole time. I know. John List. No, but this one, I'm saying it's the murderous, so much more personal and awful and like,

you know, hammer marks and ceiling type of shit where it's like trying to end it quick. Yeah. You're over killing your own children and you're hurting them. What the fuck? But he waited till they were sleeping. He didn't come home until they were asleep. And then mom was, his mom was on a walk with the dog that he, that she do every night. It's just not.

You can't find a lot of details about what, how it happened either, which is like, there's no like, in this room, this happened while his wife was cooking or whatever the fuck. Also, what was he like, just like, if you were in the cafeteria at the same time, which was, do you think he was like, clearly one of those like a closed fist of a person? Yeah. Or do you think it was all like, still rotters run deep and he was just like chill and nothing was going on. And it was not a single thing that I saw that was like, and you always see this, everyone

said he was such a great guy and everyone's like, so I don't think he was. He could have been tightly wound. Yeah. I don't think people weren't like, he, we were so surprised. Right. No one said that. Yeah. As far as I could tell.

Fuck. Yeah. So that is family annihilator William Bradford Bishop. Wow, Bill Bishop. Yeah. That's like, I've never heard of that guy and that's truly awful. Yeah. Isn't that creepy?

I mean, you are going to run anyway. Why do you have to burn the bodies? You got that head start. But like, that's just one chore you don't have to do. Like you, you've killed your whole family. Yeah. They're probably not going to get found for a week. But I mean, like either way, it's not like you killed one member of your family and everyone

else doesn't know what's happening or something. It's like you've taken out an entire family unit. People are going to catch on no matter what the state of their corpses is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's too much. It's pretty amazing that they were able to actually identify the bodies because if he hadn't left that shovel behind,

they would have never gone, they would have never talked to Bethesda, Maryland because they identified it as one of two hardware stores in Bethesda. And it was hundreds of miles away, right? You said? Six hours away or something. So if he hadn't kind of fucked up and left a shovel behind,

they would have never been traced to each other. Did he want to get caught? Yeah, maybe. It was probably his, I don't think he wanted to get caught. No. He don't burn bodies. You specifically don't want to get caught if you burn bodies. It's just, he did everything the worst way possible.

He really did. And he was never fucking found, which is so disappointing. Yeah, but he got that military edge. He's like a born-esque. He's a Jason Bourne type, bad-born. Yeah, bad-born. Hey, one positive thing that happened, hey, let's get out of there.

What about, so we try to end this with something positive because we don't want to end on a family annihilator. A thing that makes us happy, a thing that we like, a thing that we've noticed lately that's fun. Yeah, you just shook your head terrifyingly at me. Mine is that because 3 o'clock to 7 o'clock is so hard for me. What the fuck? Hate neighbors.

That was creepy. They just moved in, so they're like putting paint on it. Oh, putting paint on it. They're putting paint on it. We're podcasting. We're podcasting. Also, it just was so light, it was really creepy. They're trying to be quiet.

OK, so, oh yeah, OK, so from 3 to 7, so it's hard for me. So the thing I've been doing this past week to try to make it positive, didn't mean to scare the shit out of you. Hi, little girl. I've been laying out at the pool in the sun, and it's been fucking phenomenal. Oh, that's good.

It's been making me so happy and so like, like I feel like I'm in paradise. That's really good. I wonder if you had maybe a little vitamin D deficiency and you need a little sunlight, a little, what do they call it, weather depression or whatever? Yeah, definitely. And it's just this thing of like, OK,

here's celebrating life in a different way than alcohol and charcuterie. Yes. Which, man, still sounds so much better, but whatever. Well, it's definitely faster. But it's so relaxing when you're outside. I've been actually sitting outside at my house too. Nice.

It's just so relaxing. And it's been mine. OK, I guess mine will be. I walked my dogs in my neighborhood, the neighborhood kind of near me, which is nice last night. And it was as if all the Jasmine in the whole neighborhood bloomed at one time. I know.

It was crazy. It's walking around a neighborhood and it smelled like the inside of a florist shop was one of the weirdest things of all time. There's this moment in LA and it's such a quick moment where all the Jasmine blooms and it only happens for like a very short time during the year and it's fucking fabulous.

It's crazy. And when you were like, I was coming home from something and from like the lift to the front door, the smell was so beautiful and strong. I was like, I have to walk my dogs right now. Like I need to be out in this air. I love that. It was very cool.

That's a good one. And also because I've been in my house doing nothing, but binge watching TV. And cleaning the walls. And wiping down walls like a weird mental patient. Just kind of like staring up. The walls must be clean. But they are the difference it makes when your walls are clean.

And I just highly recommend it. You don't think about it until someone else does it, that you pay them to do it. And you're like, oh. But also when you get one of those magic erasers, they really do work. I know. I love it.

What's it, a Mr. Clean thing? Yeah. Or you can get a Target brand. It's like a little bleach sponge. It's a white sponge that when you touch it to things, it just makes marks and nicks and shitty looking things go away. I bet it's made of asbestos. I hold it in my hand for like hours at a time.

Let it dissolve. All of this is leaching into my system. You know what? Maybe to clean it out a little bit. I mean, the end things are going to come before you can die of asbestos poisoning, probably, right? What if the magic eraser is the new green juice and that's the way to detox?

It's just to magic erase both hands. Yeah, every morning. I'm just picturing that. I think I can get Mimi to meow again. Yes, special guest. There's just someone post. Yeah, go to our Instagram. Thanks for listening.

Oh, thank you so much for listening. You guys are the best. We appreciate your support and having fun with us. And we want you to stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Mimi? Want cookie? Mimi, say it.

Mimi? Want cookie? Not you. Mimi? Look at Mimi. She won't do it. Come on. Yes!

I talked over her. Let's see if she'll do it again. You can cut, polish, and ask. There she is. All right, Mimi, Elvis, I know. Elvis, you want a cookie? Yeah, yeah. That's how it's done.

Bye.