My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 63 - Steven's Tuxedo

Episode Date: April 6, 2017

Quit your job, get a spiral notebook, and listen to this week's My Favorite Murder. Karen and Georgia cover the crimes of the demonic Joseph Edward Duncan III and the Coen Brothers-esque Fred Neulander.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. I'm just, Stephen is looking at his knobs, very concerned. Intently and concerned.

Almost like a DJ. He did look like Stevie Okie, kind of. He looked like a Las Vegas DJ, being like, what about the treble? That's me. What about the bass? Have you done any DJing, Stephen, in Las Vegas? Can't say I have, but it's a dream, you know? Is that where you're aiming?

Is that the goal? To be on one of those billboards for Hakuson? Yes! Oh! DJ Steve, what would, what would your, what's a better DJ name for Stephen? DJ Moustache. DJ Stache. Oh, shit.

DJ Stache. Coming this fall. Yeah. What is it, Elvis and Stephen? Elvis is the headliner. Don't really shove Elvis into this. This is Stephen's project for Las Vegas. Sorry, Stephen.

Elvis gets up and moves, like, scratches the record himself. Yeah. Oh. Elvis? Anything to say about that? He came up to the mic. He did. On the mic, he's about to fucking, Elvis is the emcee.

With a lot of intent. Stephen is the DJ, Elvis is the emcee. That's right. Speaking of Elvis and Stephen, we have a corrections corner, because last week, glaringly missing from the episode was both Stephen and Elvis, because Stephen thinks he can take a fucking vacation and fucking walk away from this thing. I knew it. I'm so sorry.

That we were going to give you a shit about it. Stephen, the unpaid intern that does the most work of anyone on this podcast. He thinks he can go visit his mother. He can visit family that he can stay behind in Portland. Nope. Do whatever he wants in Portland. Don't worry. He begged us to come back.

And we were like, we'll talk, we'll talk it through. Yeah. So this is his trial episode. Yeah. And Elvis, like, revolted because he was like, well, so, well, that means we, we recorded at the Feral Audio Studios and like when I got there, I was like, wait a minute, Elvis isn't here. So he did.

He wasn't on either. But don't worry. He's fine. A lot of concern. A lot of social media concern for Elvis. He's very healthy. He's here in front of us, flicking his tail around as we speak. Yeah.

And they were like, are Georgia and Karen okay? Because they're not yelling at Stephen this episode. Yeah. They're like, this is all very uncomfortable. But everyone's fine. No, somebody was like, does your mom yell at you like Karen? Do you miss it? Yeah.

Of course. Did you miss getting reprimanded for shit that you had nothing to do with? For shit that is clearly our fault. I did do the, I did do my favorite related activity. I sent you guys pictures. I went to Klein Falls, which was the subject of one of the live stories. Yeah. Yes.

Which was like, it was eerie because I'd never done anything like that, like visited the site of something. And my mom is like, oh, it's just up the road from where I live. I'm like, okay, I guess I'll take pictures because people might want to see this, but it changes the view when you know that someone got fucking bludgeoned by a hatchet there. So crazy. Yeah. Well, welcome back, Stephen.

Thank you. We're glad you're back. Yeah. We're glad you're back. So real quick, I want to do March Corner. We have a new design. It's a really cute kind of a cursive, awesome thing. It says sweet baby angel or sweet baby angle and you can pick which one you want because

of course, I always say sweet baby angel, but then one hometown murder misspelled angel for angle and then it's fucking gone from there. So go to my favorite murder shirts.com. It was designed by our friend, Kirsten Bancomo, who's from the Printful where we print all her shit. She's fucking awesome. And yeah, pick sweet baby angel or sweet baby angle. And we have like fucking onesies now and phone cases and all this crazy shit.

Tote bags. Tote bags. Mugs. And what I like about this sweet baby angel or angle shirts is that there's so many color choices. Yeah. Like surprising amount of color choices. Yeah.

It's very cool. It's a fucking cute shirt. And I think it's like if you wear it and people don't know what it is, they won't know, but if they know they know. Yes. That's right. It's a less overt murdering shirt. Exactly.

It's very cute. It is very cute. I do have a thing that it's not, it's neither, it's a new corner, but it's almost like an announcement corner, but it just feels like I've heard from enough people online. You and I have talked about it enough. So this feels like a thing that just needs to be said, which is more like this. We love touring. We love doing live shows.

We have the best time. It is such an amazing thing to come out to a wall of energy and people's positivity. It's the best 99% of the people that go to our shows and participate in our shows are lovely, joyous people who are having a great time. We heard from a bunch of people from Portland who didn't have the best time at a couple of those shows because there were people around them that were yelling so much at us. The entire show. And there has been a thought that has been floated in the community that we like it when

people yell at us from the audience during the show because then it's a chance for me to yell at people or for us to make jokes about it. And just for corrections, just no hard feelings. We've always had a great time. We will continue to have a great time. But just so you know, we don't like it when you yell at us at all during the show. And it's gotten to a point now where we just have to completely ignore people. There was a show in Portland that was crazy.

There were people in the audience that were yelling at us literally the entire time. And there were people around them bumming out. I know. What do we do? If we say something to them, then they'll keep doing it. We don't say anything. We don't say anything. What we do is this.

We let people know that we love your energy, that we love that you want to participate. But please don't tell yourself we want you to yell at us because that is not true at all. It's never been true. And for me, being a stand up comic for 20 years, when you get a heckler in an audience, you shut the heckler down because that's how you perform a show of comedy. That's how you keep in control of the crowd. But you don't want to be heckled.

So just because comedy comes out of it doesn't mean that's a positive experience for anybody. And it certainly ruins the time of the people around you. There was a couple of people during one of their shows, and it was just constant commentary the whole time, and it's not pleasant. And we now just ignore it. As someone who's kind of new at this whole onstage thing, it's really distracting to keep being distracted by this when I'm trying to concentrate on being a good performer and telling my story well and not being nervous, and sitting up straight, not accidentally flashing

my underwear. Well, and we really have work. It's not like anyone can say this is any kind of like, we're not doing crowd work. Especially by the time we sit down and we're reading our stories, we have a presentation that we want to give to everybody and that everybody wants to hear. That 99.5% of the people in the room want to hear what we're saying. So if you are the person that got drunk and couldn't stop yelling, or you thought it would be funny to yell or talk to us, just know, you know, no one's mad at you.

Everything's fine. But yeah, we absolutely don't want that to be happening. So just as clarity, it seems like there was people in the audience in Portland who were upset because they paid good money and they waited just as long and they're just as big of a fan as anybody going crazy who can't control themselves and yell the whole time. Well there's people around you who are just as big of a fan and yet they're controlling themselves. We understand where it's coming from.

And believe me, when I saw the kids in the hall live at the UCLA Theater, I wanted to scream chicken lady the entire time. I wanted them to know what I liked. I wanted them to know what was in my mind and heart. I wanted them to understand how loyal you were. Yeah. Because it's a big deal to me. It meant a lot to me.

So honestly, the fact that there are people having those feelings toward us, it's my dream come true. It's, it's, we take it the way you mean it, but we would love to not have to deal with it. You being there is enough. Can I do new podcasts that I like, Corner? Please. But I'm worried.

Okay. So I found this, I found this podcast because I was, we're going to Milwaukee and I was doing a lot of research in the Milwaukee murders. So stop me if you're working on this. Oh, I'm not. You have a picture. I'm going to stop you by telling you I'm not working on anything, so go for it. Great.

So I found this one because I, it was such an interesting story and I'm like, how have I never heard about this before? And then I, as I do with every story that I want to read, I put in the name and podcast because I don't want like sword and scale to have done it a week ago and I seen like a fucking asshole. Right. So I did this one and I found this podcast called Unsolved. And it's about this kidnapping and murder of this kid named John Zira back in 1976.

And they never found the guy, but they maybe found this. There's all these suspects. And of course it's, it's just like the Johnny gosh story where it's like, look how bad this was bungled because we didn't know how to refine people. And there's two different districts and they interviewed people and didn't follow through and then this guy later turns out to be this child molester. And is it him? Isn't it him?

Is it not him? But it's a good podcast and it's a, every episode is really short and it's by another awesome female investigative journalist, which I'm really stoked that there's so many of those lately. There's so many now. So many. Yeah. And you know, so it gives it a little bit of, yeah.

So it's a good one. So unsolved. Unsolved. Yeah. And then you were telling me about one that I started listening to called Hollywood and Crime. Yeah. What's that one?

Okay. So Hollywood and Crime is about, and I did a thing finally, I thought, I prethought it out and downloaded all the episodes before I got on the plane. So I don't do that. It makes me crazy. You get on the plane. You're like, fine. I'll listen to the thing now.

You haven't downloaded it. You can't listen to it. And then while we're taking off, I'm like, take it off airplane mode and try to download every episode. And then I crash the plane. And then, or try to buy Gogo InFlight, which is just a bunch of bullshit. Total bullshit. I hate Gogo InFlight so much.

Any airplane Wi-Fi is such a scam. They're taking $27 directly out of your bank account and they're like, okay, good luck with that Wi-Fi 30,000 feet in the air. That being said, see, as we grow and change, I pre-downloaded eight episodes of Hollywood and Crime. And I was so proud, filled with pride. And what it is, is the Black Dahlia murder, which happened in 1944, six, nine, something, seven.

It happened in the 40s. Great. It definitely happened in the 40s. Stephen will jump on it. But the interesting thing is, there were other female murder mutilations around Los Angeles at the same time that people don't talk about. And so it strings together all of these different cases. And it's unbelievable.

And how they're related. I only listened to like 10 minutes of the first episode and already was like, they both worked at the same fucking nightclub. Yes. There was definitely, at least I think I was up to the fourth episode and I'm like, there's a hundred percent like a slashy face killer in Los Angeles. And it was because it was during World War II, they don't, that's the thing about it. I was thinking is like, there's so much shit during World War II that nobody paid attention

to because the news was filled with World War II. World War II, constantly. And most the boys were being shipped out and coming back. And that whole thing around, there was a thing called the Hollywood Canteen, which was where the Formosa down on Formosa, I think, or somewhere in Hollywood, where active duty soldiers would go and they would get to dance with actresses, like Betty Davis used to run it. And so you could go there and like, I think that alcohol wasn't allowed and you couldn't like have any romantic, like romance wasn't going to be.

But like you'd pay for a slow dance or any kind of dance. Well, I don't think you had to pay because you were, that was the whole idea is like if you're active duty, but you're on leave, you can come to the Hollywood Canteen and like basically party with celebrities and it's all on us. And all the ladies thought they were like doing a service for the servicemen. That's right. And she and Elizabeth Smart. Elizabeth Smart?

Nope. Elizabeth. Short. God. Now I don't know. It's a mix of like, wait, one of those is wrong. Smart is modern. Short is old.

Right. And so she went there and so did a couple of these victims. One of them is called the bathtub. It was called the bathtub murder and it was this woman who had a lot of money. This young woman, she went to the canteen a lot and she was found in a bathtub full of bloody water and her face, I believe her face was cut because, because Elizabeth Short was drained of blood and they thought it was done and they, they surmised it was done in a bathtub, right?

I think so. Or they definitely know it was not, it was a, they had her somewhere for a long time. Right. That's the horrible part of that murder. Is it she was tortured for a long time and the person that killed her and may have killed these other women is the worst serial killer ever and they never caught it. And if they're not related, that's, it's such an insane coincidence that these murders were happening all around the same time.

I hate how normal her autopsy photos are getting where like you click on cold case file or cold cases and you click on images and it's just a close up of her face. Have you seen that? Yeah. It's horrible cutting. Yeah. And it's just like, you don't even put in like black dolly and you know, like, and you see these like crime scene photos.

It's rough. And I fucking hate, you know, I love crime scene photos. I bought a fucking book called like crime scene photos basically when we were in Portland to prove how much you love crime scene photos. I just wanted to prove it. No, but it's actually, I kind of fucked myself over because it was a vintage crime scene photo. So I was like, great.

It'll be like mobs and mobsters and like that kind of thing. Good outfits. Yeah. It's not. It's horrifying. It's very graphic. Oh no. It's not late night reading.

And it's vintage in terms of like, it was back when people would die of horrible things, right? Like rabies or something. Well, there's, there are rabies ones actually. The rabies ones are the worst thing of all time. It's just, it's all, it's, it's more like horrors, but there's a lot of deaths. There's like a whole page of suicide hanging. We call them sex workers.

What? Horrors. Horrors. Sex workers. That was, that was very poorly timed for what the next sentence was and I still said it and I shouldn't have. Apologies to everybody. I'm still laughing.

And so is everyone else. You guys were all creeps together. Steven's laughing with both hands over his face and a third hand came up. We don't know where it's from. Mimi is like cracking up. Maybe he loves it. Suicides hanging suicides and that there's a description. It's actually found out it's, it's a, like a Los Angeles police detective's book of

his cases. Wow. That they turn into like a coffee table book. Wow. For people who don't get dates. Hey, hey, watch this. We do fine. I do all right.

Us people that love those books. Vince doesn't want to see it. There's a guy with elephantitis in the nuts and Vince wanted to look at that. That's pretty fucking fabulous. Oh man. Yeah. That's a good book. I mean, I, that's the kind of thing.

The reason I don't look at those pictures anymore is because I in the nineties when I was, you know, a riot girl or whatever the hell I thought I was doing, there were lots of times where we would look through books like that and it was almost like a contest of like everyone would look at this crazy thing and be like, well, I don't even care because Kurt Cobain and I've seen things that I can, I still see it in my mind. The, the child who died of rabies, I can, I can see it in my mind when I say that. It's horrible. I can too.

But for some reason it makes me want to like consume of it as much of it as I can so that so you know, I just don't want to look away. Yeah. Yeah. So I know. Hey, speaking, that just reminded me. There is a movie. Have you ever seen that?

It's like kind of a documentary. It's called Wisconsin death trip. Okay. It is the best. I don't know. Yeah. Stephen, have you seen it? No.

I haven't. Um, he just did the most hilarious nod. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't get me wrong. It is, they took a book, I think it was just of like the police blotter from cities around Wisconsin in the 1800s, mid 1800s, I believe. And so they just read the stories of what the police, you know, what they were doing and what the crimes were. And it's insane because it's just like today, except for it was in the mid 1800s.

So it's like a boy walked onto, into a farm yard and shot the two people standing there and walked away. And they, and when the police arrested him, he said he was bored. And then there's like mothers who go and drown their children in the river and all these things that we think are happening now and they're just, oh, this time we live in and it's so awful or whatever. And it's like, you got to watch, you got to watch Wisconsin death trip. It's just-

Where do they, what are the, what's the video of? The visuals are this really awesome, sepia toned, like B-roll that they took all around because so much of Wisconsin is really nature and farms and there's, you know, so they basically are just, if it's, if the crime is about a person walking into a farm yard, they walk down a road and they get like a little kid in overalls holding a gun or what, but they don't, it's not like act, it's not total reenactments, it's just more of like the feel, yeah. And it's kind of creepy, like a distant white farmhouse, you know, that where it's like, it is creepy.

I want to see that. You don't want to see it? I do. Oh, no. I want to see that. I thought you were like, nope, the farmhouse. I don't want to see that. Shut me down.

I can't deal with kids in overalls. It really makes, it really triggers me. It triggers you about me and grammar school. And that, when I was a waitress and I had to wear fucking overalls. Sure. This little cafe in Santa Monica when I was like 19 and they required you to wear overalls. What? Full overalls or like an overall skirt dress?

I think you could do whatever you wanted, but all I had was like Dickie's overalls. Was it a gas station restaurant? Like one of those like. It was country. It was like a country themed restaurant, yeah. Can we do a gift corner? The podcast. Yeah, let's do that.

No, no, no, no. Okay. Real quick. We got sent a couple really good presents. Yeah. Really quickly we were opening presents before this. Sent to the P.O. Blacks.

Thank you guys so much. Every day's Christmas. My favorite murder. Yay. This is how we love you. This is how to get us to love you. Okay. So we got these incredible pins.

They're like the enamel pins that everyone loves. One is like a closed switchblade. So cool. It's so cool. One is a fucking Ouija board, a little enamel Ouija board with a movable, what do they call these? The movie part? Cursor.

Cursor. Old fashioned cursor. It's a cursor. One, and then there's one that says sweet honesty. One says spuck politeness, which I'm putting on a leather jacket. Yeah. One that says slightly spooky, which I'm guessing we said at some point in our lives. Or maybe it's from another true crime podcast she likes.

Right. Or he. Okay. Okay. It says dear Georgia Karen and Steven, thank you for making the best podcast in the world. We have no murders to share, but wanted to gift you guys with some killer pins, 50% of the proceeds for the sweet honesty pin goes to end the backlog. The rest of us are just selfish.

And then it's one of those emojis where it's a smiley face shrugging, which I love. Yeah. Don't know how to do what I love. That's a good one. Thank you all so much by Crystal Kim and Anna. And it's the company is called, um, fuck called Memento Mori Mori Memento Mori. Yeah. I love to go and figure those things out on Etsy because they're really cool.

They're such nice pins. Yeah. Very cool. And we got a whole box full of them. Thanks. Thanks guys. Nice designs. Good job.

High five. All right. Let's do, let's do the official nose blowing. Great. And then loving to start. I, if I were a crafty person, I would send you in the mail little, like five little black table cloth handkerchiefs looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning, shopping and prepping handled.

Hello fresh has you covered. Hello fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts.

Karen January is going to be my month for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much. I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good, which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hello

fresh.ca slash murder 20 with code murder 20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20 goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast killer psyche daily, I share a quick 10 minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold blooded killers you hear about in the news.

I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On killer psyche daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton serial killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast killer psyche daily in the Amazon Music app.

Download the app today. Okay, it's not gross though to save your snot. It's super disgusting but it's a funny joke referencing when you blew your nose on the tablecloth. No? No good. No, I get it now. I get it now.

I didn't understand. It's beyond disgusting and makes no sense. But I did blow my nose on a tablecloth in Portland. That did happen. Yeah. So that would be fitting. It was pretty goddamn great. I felt like everyone felt very freed by that action.

I was, as I was bending down to do it, I was like, you should be humiliated while you're doing this and I didn't. No. It's just gone now. It's almost like we're just breaking down the rules of society. Yeah. Fuck you mom. Come to our live show.

You won't believe what we do. Tricks and things. Blowing. Blows. Blown. To shreds. And mines blown. Mines and laws blown.

You or me? I don't know. Me? I should know this. I'm nervous. Oh my gosh. It's Georgia. Yes.

Because you did the gorilla killer. Oh, that's right. Okay. I don't remember what I did last week. Oh, I do. No, I don't. Okay. All right.

Ready for a serial? I do. It's just, if Moore's murders. Right. Crazy. And then someone sent me a text saying, did you know that the Smith song, Suffer the Little Children is about the Moore's murders? That's right.

Which you kind of have, they say their names in the song. Do they? Yeah. Hindley, he calls her Hindley in the song. Okay. Ooh, that's so cool. Let's all listen to it. That's turning the theme song.

Are they going to sue us? Yep. Yep. Uh, ready for a serial killer? I am. Real horrible guy. Uh-oh. Here we go.

Joseph Edward Duncan the third. The third. The way I looked at you when I said that. Was born on February 25th, 1963 in Tacoma, Washington. And I said that he looks like the actor Ben Mendelsohn, who was the older brother from Bloodline. Remember that guy's got kind of a lisp and he's like a broad, he's like an actor and he's kind of a little hot.

Bloodline. Was he the bad one? Yeah. He's the one everyone's worried about? Yes. That guy's amazing. Yeah. Okay.

He looks like him. So like creepy skinny. Just to have an idea. Okay. Um, like gangly. I like this. Describing what they look like. Yeah.

Cause you, you know, you think of a big fat person and that's not who this person is. A great big fat person. A great big fat person. He's not that. He's like. He's size 14 roomy. Anyways, he kills children. No.

Um, so in 1976, he's 15 years old and he commits his first recorded sex crime. He at 15, he rapes a nine year old boy at gunpoint. Oh, fuck. Yeah. I said I was going to raves at 15 and he was raping children at gunpoint. Fuck. Yeah. What happened to him?

I don't know. And I can't find a lot of information on it. Okay. So clearly not something horrible. Yeah. Hit his fucking head. I mean, and then he went to a boys. I mean, it's like, they go to juvie, then they get raped.

It's terrible. Yeah. And their mom like, oh, I don't want to get as gross as I feel like it. I mean, we really could say the worst things in the world and be right. Okay. The following, I want to say it, but it's so horrifying that like I say it and then Stephen will bleep it. Okay.

I read somewhere and maybe it was head Bundy's mom or some like some killer's mom that like when he, she would take him to go to the bathroom, she would pinch his penis as a kid. I think that's Ed Dean. Is that Ed Gein? So he wouldn't go. I don't know to like, if he didn't do it, he, she would get mad at him and pinch. And it's like, how do you not get, have a sexual fucking sadist on your hands? Yes.

On your gross hands. On your filthy, disgusting hand. No, that's horrifying. On your penis pinching hands. I'm pretty sure that's Ed Gein's mother. She was out of her fucking mind. Yeah. Yeah.

He killed her, right? Uh, no, she died of natural causes. He kept her in the house and played with her body and then like wore her face in the moonlight. Pretty sure. Sorry, Stephen. Well, that's romantic. Well, shit. Nipple belt.

Yeah. So unbleep now. Okay. Yeah. Nipple belt. Is that him? Yeah. That's our guy.

Should we give a shout out to the girl who is fuck man. We're going to need to post this. We got this like gift once and it was a box and there were these like this like crochet belt in it. And we were like, okay. All right. We are yarring crochet belt. Was that in Oakland?

I think it was the Oakland show. No, no, no. It was sent here. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because then you guys left and I went to take a photo of it and as I'm looking through the lens, I realized that it's a crocheted nipple belt and it's like every different color nipples, like different races of nipples and it's, and I just lost my mind and like

joy of like how creative like that's the description of murdering us is like our listeners is someone crocheted a fucking multicultural nipple belt and nipple belt giving Ed gain that shout out. Also the fact that you had to have that realization alone. It's actually almost perfect. Yeah. Cause it's that like growing horror was horror. We pulled out more like, is it a, is it a cat toy like we're like whipping it around?

We had no idea. And then I, it just made me so happy when I realized how awful it wasn't the hat cutest way. Yeah. Cause you couldn't tell you had to, it was like a magic eye poster. You really had to stare at it for a while to understand the hideous dolphins. I got to post it. Okay.

Anyway, the following year, uh, Joseph Duncan is arrested for driving a stolen car and that's when he sentenced as a juvenile and sent to Dislins boys ranch into coma, which you'd know is probably a hellhole nightmare. He tells his therapist when he's there that he had bound and sexually assaulted six boys and he also tells the therapist that he had raped around 13 younger boys by the time he was 16. What the fuck? Yeah.

So he's a serial rapist. Yeah. Can you imagine losing count? Yeah, around 13 boys. What does that therapist fucking go home that night and drink? They're just like, now I become a sea captain. I'm done with this bullshit. I'm going to be a librarian now.

To the lighthouse. He said, goodbye. I'm going to get a cat, you know, you know, maybe just a ton of cats, like 30 cats. Just pet him. Just surround myself with cats. Yeah. Uh, in 1980, still in Tacoma, he steals guns from a neighbor and abducts a 14 year old boy again, rapes him at gunpoint.

And for that, he sentenced to 20 years in prison, but he's released on parole in 94 after serving 14 years. Then he's arrested in 96 for a marijuana use, but he's released on parole a few weeks later, but with new restrictions. And then in 97, he's around 34. He's arrested in Kansas and returned to prison after violating the terms of his parole, but he's released from prison three years later in July, 2000 with time off for good, good old, good behavior.

Good old behavior for the serial rapists to be good in prison. Clean your fucking tray at the canteen at mess, at mess hall and you can leave. So that, okay. So in the summer of 2014, he's accused of molesting a six year old boy at a park in Detroit Lake, Minnesota, but he's not captured until March of 2005 and he's held on $15,000 bond. So, there's a dude who's a businessman from Fargo who somehow Duncan had become acquainted with who helped him post bail, $15,000. I wonder what brand of pedophile he was allegedly, allegedly.

Businessman. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, very allegedly. Yeah. And if he wasn't, he must fucking hate himself now. True. What if he was just trying to be like a good Samaritan?

Yeah. He's the guy down on his luck. He says he didn't. He said he didn't molest a six year old boy at a park. So maybe he didn't. And now I'm going to spend half of some people's salary or getting out. Anyways, Duncan skips down. Okay.

Two months later in 2005, Kootenai County, Idaho authorities discovered the bodies of Brenda Grown, 40, her boyfriend and her 13 year old son. They're in their family home near Coeur d'Alene and they had been bound and died of blunt force trauma to the head. Wow. And, sorry, Brenda's two other children, Shasta, who's eight, and Dylan, who's nine. Oh my God, I hate this one so much. I know.

It's so horrible. Okay. I know. I almost didn't do it because it's so bad. I will have to do it though. No, you have to do it though. I love the shit out, but I didn't know that this guy had so much background to him. I didn't.

But it makes perfect sense. Of course he does. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. It's just one of those stories that you can't fucking believe is real. Yes. I can still see the TV when I was watching the news and them showing the CCTV or whatever

foot. Don't say it. Okay. Yes. Sorry. I totally know what you're going to say, but give away the ending. No. Tell your story.

I'm so sorry. I saw it too. It just burned in my mind. Yeah. Okay. They were all from the house and the three others, the three older people are dead and so they issue an Amber Alert and they comb the area and they can't find the kids until six weeks later in July 2005 Shasta is recognized from her Amber Alert by a waitress and manager

and two customers at a Denny's. But then they're back in Cord... The Lane. Cordelaine, is that how you say it? Cordelaine. The workers freak the fuck out immediately, phone the police and they position themselves to prevent Duncan from leaving. Police officers arrive at the restaurant, they arrest Duncan without incident, and Chast is taking them to the hospital to be reunited with her dad.

And so the footage we're talking about is of them walking into the fucking Denny's, and she's got her arms crossed. She's like this little blonde girl. He's this creep who looks like John Mendelsohn, Ben Mendelsohn, and she's got her arms crossed and it's clear something is wrong. Yes. And you wonder if you had seen that, would you have thought something was going on too? They must have, because that many people, I remember reading about the waitress coming to the table and being like, I don't like the feel here.

Are you okay? Yeah, what's going on? And I think she waited, did he go to the bathroom? Maybe. There was some moment she had with Shasta, I believe, before, where she was like, this isn't good. And she called the police. Well, what's so weird about it is you, I have to wonder, they went back to the town they were from. So everyone in that town must have known intimately what both, what, well, maybe they didn't know who it was yet, but what she looked like.

Yes. So there was another sighting of them, you know, in another state that they later realized happened. And the woman who worked at the store, it was like a gas station was like, I thought it might be her, but I wasn't sure. So I didn't do anything about it. And it's like, well, someone in your town would have done something. And it also tells you, like, if you have a bad feeling about something, don't worry about hurting the dad's fucking feelings. If this child looks in distress. At least talk to one other person about it.

Yeah. If you, if you don't send up every red flag you ever feel the bad feelings, but there's definitely, if you're in tune enough, there's, when you know something's wrong, you know what's wrong and trust yourself. I've always thought that like, if I see a kid who looks uncomfortable or in distress or not, not feeling like they're where they're supposed to be, it's okay for me to go up to a kid and be like, Hey, what's your name? You know, like engage with the kid. You know, I'm not a fucking dude, so it's not creepy, but like,

like don't do that if you're a guy, tell a woman to do that. But, you know, to be like, what's your name? And if you fucking send something is wrong, like you can just tell by body language with a kid. Yeah. Something isn't right. I mean, there was, there should be. Yeah, I wish there was some kind of like set process or keyword, you know, whatever. Yeah.

Listen, write down everyone's license plate. Every creepy dude's right. License plate at all times. Just take the time. You don't need to work. Quit your job. Get a spiral notebook. Sit in front of a gas station.

And just write down license plates for a while. Yeah. Done. But I, I adore that Denny's waitress. Oh my god. I just, because you know that first of all, if they work, she's probably working the night shift. She's seen some loony tunes.

How early? You know, she doesn't call the cops every time she sees a scraggly. No. Mendelssohn type. No. We shouldn't involve that actor at all. The poor guy. He's like, wait, what the fuck?

Fuck you guys. No, we just got him fucking cast on the lifetime movie of this motherfucking case. You're welcome, Ben Mendelssohn. We're creating work. You're welcome. Hospital. All right. Here get, here's where it gets awful.

So Shasta tells investigators that the night of her abduction, her mother had called her into the living room from the bedroom where she had been sleeping and she saw Duncan. Like Duncan was like, call your kids in here right now. She sees Duncan wearing black gloves and holding a gun. He ties her mother's hands with nylon zip ties, as well as the mother's fiance and her brother Slade. Then he takes this Dylan, Shasta and her little brother Dylan out of the house.

They get inside his stolen rental car and then Dylan, and then Duncan goes back into the house. She hears her mother's fiance scream and then sees her injured older brother staggering away from the entrance to the home. But she didn't witness Duncan bludgeoning the three of them to death. He bludgeoned them to death? Tied them up and bludgeoned them. Fuck.

When Shasta's asked where her brother Dylan is, she said, in heaven, there may be some evidence down in the Lolo Forest because that's where we were. What does that mean? On July 4th, 2005, Dylan's remains were discovered at a campsite near St. Regis, Montana. He'd been sexually assaulted and then killed with a shot in the head, after which his body had been burned and Shasta fucking witnessed the whole thing. Oh, God.

I know. Duncan had also filmed Dylan's final hours, and Duncan can be audibly heard in the video, which was shown to the fucking jury. Can you fucking imagine how much therapy you need after that? Oh, my God. Saying, the devil likes to watch children suffer and cry. Shasta's also repeatedly tortured and sexually assaulted,

but supposedly he falls in love with her and decides to return her home, which is why they were back in her town. What a monster. Monster. Yeah. Duncan later confesses that he had entered the home while the family slept with the express intention of murdering the parents and kidnapping the children.

He claims he, quote, wanted, he wanted, quote, revenge against society for sending him to prison for 20 years for sexually assaulting a younger boy who was 14 years old when he himself was only 16 years old. So he wants revenge against society for being sent to prison for sexually assaulting. For being rapist. Yep. Yeah, that's not clear thinking. No.

It's not logical thinking. You're not taking responsibility for your actions. You're not fucking... You're not cool. You're... You're... You're the devil. You're the devil.

You're the devil's like, dude, calm down. Fuck. Can you skip to the part where he gets murdered in jail? Please tell me. The devil's like, hey, man, I hurt fucking corrupt attorneys, not... Yeah. Sorry, corrupt attorneys. Sorry, corrupt attorneys.

So he subsequently charged with murdering Dylan as well as the three other family members. During his incarceration, authorities are able to link Duncan to the disappearance of Anthony Michael Martinez, who was 10 years old when he went missing on April 4th, 97, while he was playing with friends in the front yard of his home in Beaumont, California. Fuck. A man approached the group, asked for help finding a missing kitten

while holding out a photo of a cat as well as a dollar bill. And two of the children ran away in fear and the kidnapper pulled a knife out, grabs Anthony, and flees in a white car with red pinstripes and no hubcaps. After a two-week search, Martinez's body is found nude and partially decomposed in Indio on April 19th, 97. He had been sexually assaulted and bound with duct tape. A composite sketch is made of the suspect and a partial fingerprint, but the case goes cold.

And then when he is incarcerated, Riverside authorities are able to match the partial fingerprint taken to Duncan. And so they officially announce his connection. He pleads guilty in 2011. The plea agreement carries a mandatory life sentence, although he won't get the death penalty for it in California because he pleads guilty. Duncan also confessed to two additional murders Samizha White, 11, and her sister Carmen Cubius, 9,

last seen leaving a Seattle, Washington hotel to get cigarettes at a nearby restaurant for an older brother. Oh, no. I know, babies. Police said that they don't know whether the girls ran away or victims of foul play at the time. Of course, a fucking nine-year-old is running away. An 11-year-old.

Then on July 19th, the police say that the victim was in the car and on July 6th, 1996, that happened on July 6th, 1996, then their remains were found on February 10th, 1998, in Bothell, Washington, by a transient living in an abandoned barn. All three murders occurred while Duncan was on parole. Of those murders, Duncan has only been charged in the California case. In all, he's been convicted in Ohio for kidnapping and murder of the three victims for which he was giving six life sentences.

In federal court for kidnapping Shasta and Dylan, and for murdering Dylan, he was given three death sentences and three life sentences. And in the state of California for kidnapping, murdering Anthony Martinez, for which he was given two life sentences. Is he still in jail? He's still in jail. He will be forever. Let me double-check really quickly if he's still alive.

Yeah, because how? How? Unless they are keeping him in solitary confinement? Has he not been killed? How has he not been killed by inmates? That's like, he is exactly the example of a jailhouse justice type of situation. Look, want to see his picture? No.

Oh, God. Steven, you better watch that mustache, because we are looking at a serious... I'm doubting the mustache. Yeah. Although, Murderina's got me a mustache switchblade comb. Oh, yeah. So I can keep it in check. Okay, good.

Yes, please do. Yeah, he's the worst face. Not only is he still alive, he's blogging from prison. Now I'm the one, usually you're the one that's like this. Now I'm the one that's like, somebody needs to fucking kill that guy. That is, he should not be on the planet anymore. He cannot be around human beings. He kills children.

He hurts children on purpose. He videotapes hurting children. Get the fuck off the planet. Yeah. You're no good anymore. No, you're fucking rotten. Fuck. Well, so he blog, he has a blog called The Fifth Nail,

and it's something about how like Jesus was crucified with four nails, and this is the fifth nail, some bullshit. Oh, I know all about that fifth nail. Do you? And so he can't blog from prison, but he blogs about his day-to-day life as a sex offender, but so he denies being a pedophile. But so he sends his blog post and writing to people on the outside who post it, and like there's some people out there doing this fucking bidding.

Probably pedophiles, right? Probably other pedophiles. Yeah. Perhaps. Well, either way, you're no good downright fucking piece of shit. It's so funny, that case, that little girl and the thing she went through, people, I feel like anybody that was like conscious around that time, paid attention to anything around that time, also because it was early enough so that there wasn't like, nowadays,

there's so much awful shit going on, as we know, everywhere, all the time. They're closing down nature, they're closing down schools, they're closing down protecting people who need protection, they're closing it all down, it's insanity, it happens every day. But there was a time, and I used to think about it a lot, in the 90s, where we had it, we were just like fat cats, there was nothing going on, it was before we got into that first war. Clinton, it was Clinton. No, it was the Clinton days.

It may have been later than that, but still, it was like, there wasn't, so when something like that came on the news, it was heart-stopping. It was like, you've got to be kidding me, how did this happen? Yeah. No, I mean, even in just the last couple of years, we hear about every single one of them, especially when you're into fucking true crime, I'm just constantly reading about these things, and we're just constantly looking at, but back then, it was harder to find those things, and the detail that you can get now, and the photos, and so, it was just this glimpse that you would get.

Yeah, horrible. Yeah. God, that's, yeah. Sorry, so that's- No, I mean, it's like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, no, I mean, that's like, that was a big one, and it's interesting to know that that was a person that started doing that, that was an internally and intensely damaged individual that started pretty bad, and it got way, way, way worse.

Right, somewhere along the way, there could have been intervention, or just something different could have happened. I think it's when eventually, hopefully, people start taking rape as a crime more seriously, as a real, as something that, this isn't something to have your hands slapped and walked away from, and that a lot of people that do it, do it over and over again, and intend to do it over and over again, that's a serious problem with a person. And it's not, I feel like there's a lot of people who just think rape is someone who wants to have sex really bad, a rapist is someone who's just looking for sex.

Well, if you think about it in a way which it actually is, which is this fucking violent, insane mind who needs to overpower and hurt and fucking ruin someone, that is a criminal who should not be allowed on the streets after three years of good behavior in prison. And how often do they escalate? I mean, how many stories do we tell that start off with a person doing, it's he raped a girl in his town and then da da da, and then he moved to this town, and then suddenly he's murdering the people he's raping. I mean, it's the story every time.

I feel like it's going to catch up slowly as long as we don't keep, well, I mean, I feel like the more people who talk about it, the more people who have conversations, but also the more like the Brock Turner. I was just thinking, that's what I was thinking about. Yeah, that the swimmer from Sanford who got released because nobody wanted to mess up his swimming career and he raped a girl so violently who I think he drugged. I think I don't know if that ever came out like to be the truth, but that's the theory. She was incapacitated.

She was incapacitated. She and when she told the story, it's like she's at a party and all of a sudden she's waking up behind a dumpster. And the two men who witnessed it were so upset. The two men that grown men were crying and so upset of what they witnessed. That's not something that you go, okay, well, don't do this anymore. Who would do that in the front? It's like we have to start treating it and talking about it

as the extremely violent criminal act that it is. And also stop fucking using the phrase sexual assault. I was thinking the same thing. Stop using euphemisms. If it's rape, it's rape. Some people say like, you know, sexual assault, it's not sex. Don't use the word sex when it's just rape. Unconsexual, unconsexual sex.

Yeah. Nonconsexual sex is sex. Is rape. Is rape. That's right. Sex is between two consenting adults. So don't fucking call it that. Also date rape is rape.

Date rape is rape. That doesn't mean it's just nice and chill rape. Nope. It's rape. Also there's, it wasn't a pre-agreement that that agreement got broken, which is what date rape alludes to. Right. That's bullshit.

You went on a date. What did you? Yeah. Someone got upset. No, this person is a rapist. Yeah. Because you don't rape people unless you're a rapist. Don't rape people.

Oh man. I mean, I think we're coming down pretty hard on an anti-rape stance. I think it's clear that we're anti-rape. And we're saying it to our listeners as if we have to convince them of anything. You guys, stop it. Stop it. We're like, yes, to fucking crochet nipple belts, no to rape. Just listen.

Do you know where we stand? We're going to tell you how it works. There's no gray area. Oh man. Are you ready for yours? Yeah. This is going to be a bit of a left turn. Okay.

I'm not going to say it's fun. But it's an upturn. It's an uptick from. It's not the most upsetting. For me, that really, and I swear I'm not criticizing you. It really, that's the one that gets me where I almost, I almost try not to think about it because it's just awful. I almost didn't do it, but I'm like.

But there are people, I mean, that's, these are the stories people. When you talk about them, it's important. Yeah. Because she also, because she's a survivor and she's survived. And she has a story to tell, which I think she's now coming out and telling it. I bet she is. Yeah. I bet.

What a horror. She's doing amazing work. And that's, you know, there's no, I mean, just to think of the nightmare she went through. Yeah. Yeah, is as a survivor, she has to be a very strong person to be able to move forward, not on, but move forward in real life. Yep.

I also think you do certain things in your life and there are no amount of Jesus's nails that can help you after a while. Just, just not that anybody that needs to hear that message is listening, but it's just a personal theory I have. You can pick up that Bible all you want. I mean, like, that's the whole idea of Christianity is like, yeah, now you're forgiven. But you can't just fucking kill children. God doesn't.

What are we doing? God doesn't want you anymore. Right? Is that what you're saying? I mean, I don't know. I'm okay with that. What's the, where can we start talking about? Will anything ever settle down?

I don't know if we can talk about actual rehabilitation. What works? What, how do you, how do you fix people that do? That do terrible things? Well, what you have to admit right now is that we don't know. Yeah. And so why are we, why are we saying, oh, he's rehabilitated. We can let him out.

We don't know the brain and we don't know psychology. Like psychology is a pretty new fucking thing. Why are we saying that we know well enough to let somebody out on good behavior, that they're rehabilitated? Yeah. Stop fucking pretending that you, that you went to fucking college for eight years and became, you know, you read all the textbooks so you know when someone is fucking rehabilitated. Why are we letting that happen?

Are you saying they pretended they went to college and they really did? No, they did. I'm saying that people who, I mean, or went to, what's that college that you can go to online? Oh, Phoenix University? Yeah. You got a Phoenix University, you got a fucking degree in criminal justice. How about that we put child rapists on the great pan-Pacific garbage patch? Ooh.

That's about five miles wide and it's made of garbage. It's floating in the sea. They're garbage people. You go out there and you take that act out into the garbage patch. Cause that's, that's, all right. If you can swim back to shore, then you get off on whatever. Garbage behavior. Yeah.

Garbage behavior gets garbage patches. That's right. This is not helping. Anyways, Steven, cut that entire. Steven. Cut my story. All right. I'm going to talk to you about a man named Rabbi Fred Newlander.

Do you know him? No. Okay. So I got most of this from an old city confidential, which if you haven't seen city confidential, the oldest ones were narrated by a man, a great actor named Paul Winfield. And Paul Winfield narrated the show like he had a margarita in one hand. He is so chilled out. It feels like when he tells you the story and the writing is so hilariously brilliant.

They tell you the story. So they, it's called city confidential. So they tell you all about the city first. So they're like, it was a spender in community. Exactly. Jerry Hill, Pennsylvania was a sleepy book. And then it becomes, they do it thematically. So since because this was about the rabbi, it was all these biblical references.

So it was like, but evil did live here. And it's like, and he's kind of talking like that. He's a little slurry. It's like innuendo-y, but, but like such obvious innuendos that it's not. I love that show. It's the best show. I used to watch it so much. I don't know why forensic files is on constantly in that show isn't

because forensic files is like adorable because it's so dated, you know? It's adorable, but city confidential is legitimately good. City confidential is a beautifully put together, beautifully produced show. Good stories too. Great stories. They get great people. Here's what I love. The hometown reporters, because they're the ones that know the whole story.

Angels. And this is their big fucking moment to be on TV. And to be like, I know I wrote about, I called me on the phone. I'm the one. I'm the one. It's me, Pam. Listen, I went to fucking Phoenix University Journalism School and I'm finally fucking getting my comeuppance.

But a lot of these people, like it's true. It's like this one woman who was a reporter for, it was like the Cherry Hill Gazette or whatever the hell I should have written it down. It's on YouTube. Everybody go watch it. It's so good. But these are journalists. These are people who are like, this is what the town's like.

This is what we're used to. This is, it's so cool because they give you the sense of what is going on in the town. And they're always such like, they're such earnest people. Like you trust them. They know what they're talking about. It's not this bullshit over here where it's like, I think it was in Pennsylvania. They're like, they know for a fact. Everything they say is a fact.

You mean over here, like sitting on the couch right now? I was pointing to myself. Oh, I thought you meant like the LA time. I was like, why? Because we're in LA. Not like the West Coast. No, no. Okay.

So yes, if you want, if you want to get the full story, the city confidential is on there. Also just, I do recommend getting on to a YouTube, like enter some true crime something because they just have a million old shows on YouTube that are true crime stories that just, they don't, this one doesn't have the title city confidential. It just says Fred Newlander. Oh. Yeah. Then you click it.

So I think somebody was avoiding getting in trouble. So you can still watch them. Smart. Anyhow, please do support city confidential. It doesn't exist anymore. Okay. So Cherry Hill, Pennsylvania is a suburb of Philly. It's middle upper middle class.

And it might sound familiar to you because it had the first indoor mall on the East Coast, the Cherry Hill Mall. Okay. No. Okay. So that's exciting for them. I'm happy for them. Right.

Yeah. People, I mean, it used to be like because the highway 70 used to go from Philly to Cherry Hill. And so basically that road was always full of traffic because people lived, worked in the city and lived in the suburbs. And so they started building, you know, stores along the road because everyone was always on the road. That's smart.

That's what led to the first indoor mall. I never thought of that being like if there's a first one. Yeah. Just like then they were. Yeah. And then people just go like the whole city was kind of built around and the community was in the mall. One of these reporters said like if you want to know the community or see what the community

is like, you go to the mall. Wow. I love a mall. Dude, malls. Dude, dude. Yeah. So, okay. So there's like 70,000 residents and probably a third of them are Jewish.

So there's, you know, these reporters talk a lot about how much there really is a lot of diversity in this town. And so one of the more popular temples in Cherry Hill is called Emkor Shalom. And it was founded by Rabbi Fred Newlander in 1974. He was an assistant rabbi at a different temple, but he didn't want to be the assistant anymore. And he felt like his take on what he wanted to talk about and preach about, please correct me on any of these. I'm going to use a lot of Catholic wording for very strictly Jewish things.

And I apologize in advance, but he basically wanted his, you know, congregation and his leadership to be a little bit more updated and a little different. So he starts this new temple. And by the mid-90s, he's got 4,000 people going to it. So it's like one of the bigger ones in the city. He had met his wife, Carol, in college. She was the daughter of a very well-to-do garment business man, I guess. Garment manufacturer?

Like a garment textile guy, you know, checktiles and clothing merchant, I guess. But she was rich. Like she grew up in a mansion in Long Island and with butlers and stuff. Holy shit. I love that part when they talk about like a rolling lawn down to the ocean or whatever. Like kind of having butlers just like hanging out makes me, I would feel so uncomfortable. Yeah.

We're like someone silent standing there, ready to do your bidding. You're pointing at Stephen. I want to point out that you're, yeah, I would hate it to have like a helper. Someone that just does whatever you ask them to. And you don't, you only pay them every five months. Touche. I stand corrected. I meant that about myself as much as you do.

No, yeah, you were correct. Um, Stephen's crying. Stephen, get back in your hole. Stephen, put your tuxedo back on. Okay. So while at the same time as Fred is, you know, starting up his basically his own religious community in Cherry Hill, Carol notices that there with all the festivities that go on and the religious holidays and stuff like that, there's no kosher bakery.

So she opens Cherry Hills first kosher bakery. It was called the classic cake company. And she starts it smartly. Right. She sees a niche and that needs to be filled. She does it. She's not going to fucking rest on her dad's textile laurels. Fuck no.

No. And she's not going to rest on her rabbi husband's good time. No. She's going to be like, excuse me, I went to a party and yet again, I couldn't get a slice of kosher cake. Can I please? Damn it. So any buttercream in this fucking that hasn't touched bacon.

That's kosher, right? When it doesn't get bacon rubbed on it. So she starts this cake company and it does great. So by the early nineties, the newlanders are killing it. Their son Matthew is a medical student, but he's also a part-time EMT. Their daughter Rebecca lived in Philly. I don't know anything about her, but I want to say great thing. She was, I mean, she lived in Philly.

She got out of Cherry Hill. She made it. She wasn't no shlump. No, no way. And she still got along with her family because her and her mom talked on the phone all the time. So the only worry was this. Carol at the classic cake company made, the take was between five and 20 grand a day. Holy shit.

So it's a middle-aged mom type who's driving home with a shit ton of cash every night. So Fred starts to be concerned about that. And he tells Carol, I'm going to look into this because I think we need better security for the house and for you. And we need to kind of like address this. So Fred says he knows a guy. So what had happened was in 1992, a man named Len Janoff had come to the temple because someone in his AA group recommended that he go speak to Rabbi Fred Neumeyer

because at the time Len had just gotten divorced. He was totally broke. He was a raging alcoholic doing very like really bad in general. And also it's people say he was kind of a bit of a liar. So he had kind of a, he had some personality issues and some work to do. And when he went to go talk to Rabbi Fred Neumeyer, they got along great. And Fred said, come to this temple. You don't have to worry about paying anything.

Like you, we want you here, you're welcome. And he really made a place for him there. And they both smoked at the time. So they would sneak off and smoke together. Because I think Rabbi's might, maybe they're not supposed to smoke or it's frowned upon or something. But he would sneak away with his friend and they would go smoke and talk. And it turned out that Len had a lot to say.

He had been a Vietnam vet. And then according to him, he worked for the CIA and the FBI and special forces. Nobody, if you actually have done that, you don't say it. That's exactly what someone said in city confidential. Shut up. Swear to God. I think, um, his own friend, there was another guy that was this classic like, because this thing was shot in what 1995, probably.

So there's some amazing, like amazing colored blazers and there's some frosted tips. But his friends said the exact same thing. People who worked in the CIA do not tell you stories about when they used to work at the CIA. The part of Len's reason for drinking so much is because he'd been in the shit and seen the shit. Okay. So no one's going to say anything about it. Okay.

So on Tuesday nights, Carol as at the classic cake company has her, it's her manager's meeting night. And so she stays at work until eight. So that night, November 1st, 1994 is a Tuesday and Fred comes home at six o'clock and he brings a pizza home for him and Matthew to have for dinner because they know Carol's not going to be there. And then Matthew goes for his shift being an EMT at 6 30. Oh no. Do I know where this is going?

You might. So then Fred goes back to the temple because Carol's not going to be there. So he goes back to the temple. He pops in on the assistant rabbi's Judaism class and he pops in on the choir practice and he's just kind of hanging out at the temple. I don't know what he's doing. Um, when Carol comes home at eight o'clock, uh, no one's home and she's talking on the phone to her daughter, Rebecca.

And while they're on the phone, she says to her daughter, Oh, the bathroom, the bathroom man's here again. And she's like, what are you talking about? And then Carol explains that, um, a man had dropped by to deliver something for Fred, the father, and, um, instead of just handing the thing to her, he asked if he could use the bathroom. And so he came in and use the bathroom. Oh no. And, uh, Rebecca was very upset about that and was like, I don't like that at all.

Don't let him in. And she said, no, he's fine. He's this shlubby guy. He was kind of like, you know, um, he's nothing to worry about basically is what she said. And then they get off the phone. Um, and she says he's a friend of your father's. So don't worry about it. And nine 20, Fred comes home from the temple and no one's home.

And then when he gets inside the doorway more, he looks in the living room and it's white carpet, white furniture, like almost in a completely white room and it's covered in blood. There's blood everywhere. And Carol is laying in the middle of the living room dead. He calls 911. And when he calls 911, um, he sounds really upset and flustered. And at one point he says to the dispatcher or the 911 operator, um, should I touch her? He asks that.

So nor, and I thought about that after cause I was like, well, that's kind of a weird point to make. And then I thought, well, that's that thing where if I walked into this apartment to come and record and you were laying in the middle of the floor, right, bloody, I would run over to you and be like, George, are you okay and touch you a bunch without asking anybody about it. You wouldn't think to yourself, oh, I don't want to contaminate this crime scene. Right. Or just I'm going to hang back and hopefully she's okay.

Um, so that, that was noted basically. Yeah. Um, and then I thought about that cause so his, so as he's on the phone call, he says, you have to tell the, you have to tell them my son is an EMT. They can't send him here. And so like the word goes out, but it didn't matter because he was like the third group that arrived. So by the time address, yes, but, but he wasn't on that call or that run or whatever.

So by the time he did arrive, there had already been police and another ambulance or whatever. He tries to run inside. He has to get physically restrained from running inside. And then he looks over and sees his father just standing in the driveway, just kind of staring and, and he notices that there's no blood on his father at all. There's not a drop of anything on his father. And then he asks and he, and, um, the rabbi didn't say last rights over her. He didn't say the prayer.

Like there, there are things they were saying that they would assume he would have done as a rabbi with a dead person. Now who knows? Cause it's his wife. Sure. So he might've just been in total shock and like wandered out. Fair. But when police were exiting the house, coming in and out, he never asked anybody what's going

on, what happened to her. He never said a word. He was just standing there very dispassionately staring. And if you found me and I was stabbed to death, and nothing that would go through your mind is, is the killer still in the house? Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Like to not think that. How long ago did this happen? Right. Who did it? What is happening? Who did this? Why are they still here? Yeah.

I think that's a natural fucking. Fuck yes. That'd be the scariest thing. So he doesn't even think about that. No. That's bad. Like that's a bad sign. Yes.

And also I did hear a bit of his 911 call and it's just, I just hate so much when it sounds like people are fake. I hate fake crying a lot. What does he sound like? He is just like, it's like a lot of that. But it's like, I just love good acting and it's offends me when people are like, oh, this will pass. Yeah.

This is how people act when they're upset. And everyone else is so stupid and I'm so smart that they'll never know that this is fucking fake. Yeah. Of course. They'll buy it. So good. I'm so good and so believable on these decisions I'm about to make about what a

real person who has emotions. Right. Like who wouldn't murder his wife. Yeah. Oh my God. Okay. So, okay, it says go to paper. Okay.

So of course immediately he becomes the focus of the investigation because he's the husband and because the weird, weird behavior. Yeah. They start talking to, but his alibi is airtight as we know. Well, yeah. The choir teacher song and the assistant rabbi song. He asked everyone what time it was. Except for real and to the point where the cops were immediate like, that's a super airtight

alibi that you don't buy for one second. Well, they start asking people at the temple. It was the first time in four years he'd ever gone into the Judaism class. Oh my God. And the choir leader was a known to hate interruptions. So no one went into choir practice while it was going on. It was, and Fred himself knew that about him. Man, do some due diligence and then come in like once in the fucking weeks beforehand.

Again, I'm telling you how to fucking kill someone, but. But it's the thing of, if you don't know instinctually how natural people act, how people act in a natural way, you're not going to be able to recreate it. If you're a sociopath, like this guy. And you think everyone fucking thinks you're on the level. Yeah. You think everyone's dumb. And also clearly he's got a bit of a God complex that she's like,

I need my own temple, whatever. So, okay. Then they go to the phone records and they realize that the rabbi had been calling this one number and they go and look at it. And it's a local Philadelphia radio talk show host. And yes. And we'd have to find her name. Shit, sorry.

This is a weird turn I wasn't expecting. Did you not see this one coming? Oh, I didn't see that. That we were going to go into talk radio. No, I did not. Yeah. Well, talk about that in podcasting. Neither did anybody else, especially the fans of Elaine's Sorcenes of Philadelphia radio.

She's a radio personality. So basically they do all the math. They see that he called her the day after the murder and said, I like hang in there. I really want to be with you. Do they fucking? What's that? They fucking?

Oh, they straight up fucking. Yeah. So they find out all these calls are going to her house. This is a woman who, the reason they met is because two years earlier, he presided over her husband's funeral. Uh-huh, girl. Uh-uh. Yes, that's right.

And they had started having an affair. They say roughly two months later. Oh, no. Yes. Bonnie ain't cold. He moved right in. Yep. You don't fuck someone whose husband you said the cottage for.

You know what I mean? Right. That's what I always say. That's what you, that's your, you have that tattoo. Right. Okay, so, oh, they, I'm sorry. I just got, I just got up to my own piece of paper. They began, she admitted that they started having an affair

10 days after her husband's funeral. 10 days. Oh, no. After her husband's funeral. No. Yes. And then two years later, she gives him an ultimatum. She says, I don't want to sneak around with you anymore.

You say you want to leave your wife, leave your wife. And if you don't do it by the end of 1994, this is over. And I'm starting afresh on the new year. And he's like, how about instead? Well, he, so that was in October of 1994. And the murder happens in November. He's told her, I'll have this all sorted out by your birthday, which was in December.

And she's like, you know, I mean, break up. If I sort it out, do you mean you're going to end their relation? No, no. That's kind of what I mean. Oh, you mean a horrible murder? Yeah. Oh, well, that's not what I was talking about at all. So yeah, so he was making a lot of calls to her.

So the police, all the evidence they have is circumstantial. So it, even though everyone's like that stuff about his airtight alibi, it's still an airtight alibi. Just like everyone's like, this is, this stinks to heaven, but it doesn't matter. They can't get any hard evidence until the cops tell Elaine that Fred Newlander was also having affairs with three other women at the temple besides her.

Yeah. And that's when she's like, guess what? Hey, how about? Guess what, everybody? And she spills it then. What a shitty thing though for her not to, if she hadn't known that, she would have never told anyone. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, I bet she needed to believe that he didn't do it, or that it was all, like, I'm sure he was telling her, of course the husband suspected, we're always suspected, hang in there with me. Well, she wasn't a fucking murderer then, because any murderer would have been like, get the fuck away from me. Yeah, that's, that's, he also told her, I told you to trust me

when God closes the door, he opens the window. You're like, why'd you fart or something? Get the fuck out of here. It's like, you're the hackiest rabbi I've ever heard. You're supposed to be really eloquent and have like good sayings. Yeah, that's not what I meant. Rent a serious man.

That's a good movie. So in May of 2000, Len Janoff goes to a local, oh no, sorry, that way it wasn't before. But you were telling me what she was like. So she finds out that. Elaine? Yeah. So Elaine finds out that he, the cops are like,

he's having all these other affairs, and she's like, oh fine, then the blah, blah, blah, and that, none of this is as I believe it to be. But that wasn't until way later. I believe it was, she finally tells them that in 1996. But that's still circumstantial. That could be like the lady that's mad because the guy didn't pick her.

Right, totally. Whatever. When it finally cracks is when Len Janoff goes to a local reporter and starts telling her about how he was told that basically Rabbi Fred Newlander, who, sorry, in the meantime, Len Janoff becomes the Rabbi Spokesperson. So anytime there's news cameras, anytime there's reporters on the front lawn, the Rabbi sends Len Janoff out to talk to them.

And this guy is just a bullshitter. Oh my God. And apparently he was, he would call people, he would give quotes, he was like way out in front of the story. Yeah. And he loved to hand out a private investigation business card, like he and security business card. The whole thing made me think of the Sherry Papini guy

that's like, oh, I'll handle this. I'll be the mouthpiece. Yeah. Like what are you doing here? Yeah. Another fucking big headed sociopath. Yes. And so they work on that guy for a long time.

He eventually tells a reporter that the Rabbi hired him for $30,000 to kill his wife. He spills it. Oh my God. And so he tells the story that him and his friend Paul Daniels, who he met in AA, and Paul Daniels was 20 years old when this happened. And every picture of him, he looks dumber than the last picture. Like every picture, his mouth is open and it looks like he can't believe he's where he is.

It's super sad. And I know it's wrong to be like, oh, that poor, terrible criminal that murdered this woman. Right. But it really looks like he got looped into something that he kind of didn't know was going on. He could be talked into anything. Yes.

But I mean, erase that because still what happened was they knock on the door that night at the house. Carol answers the door, recognizes the bathroom man, and they come in. She's, what happens, she led them into the house. So for whatever they said to her, the door, she was like, come on in, you guys. How?

She turns around. No. Well, because she trusts him because it's her husband's friend. I know. And she turns around to walk in and one of them hits her on the back of the head with a pipe. And she goes down. They crack her head open.

That she goes down in the living room. And then, and the Paul Daniels guy says he did the one hit. And then Len Janoff went in and just beat her to death with this pipe. That's the story that guy gives. And they, in the, in the city confidential, the report, this one reporter describes it where it's like, it's a white living room and there's just blood everywhere. Like it's so disturbingly awful because it's like, oh,

you kill a person. It's just like, yeah, there's blood spatter. There's whatever. It's everywhere. The word legend. Such a horrible word. But it's terrible, violent. Yeah.

So finally, uh, so finally they get the cops get enough evidence so they can indict Fred Neumeyer for this new lander, sorry, for this death. So they go, they have the first trial and in that trial, all this stuff comes out. So it's just like all this gossip from the temple, all the stuff. They, it's just all, they had no idea that their rabbi was this much of a douchebag.

And it all comes out in trial. And the, they find out that the daughter, like, you know, the mother had just said to the daughter, it's the bathroom. Yeah. Then they find out that Len Janoff had been there the week before on the Tuesday night when she was supposed to be there by herself. But he got cold feet because we, when he went in, Fred Neumeyer told him it needed to look like a robbery.

They needed to be stealing that cake company money. But he, when he walked in, he couldn't see her purse. And since he knew he wouldn't be able to make it look like a robbery, he got cold feet, asked to use the bathroom and then left. Oh my God. So that's why he's the bathroom man? That's why he's the bathroom man. He was there, he was supposed to kill her that night

and basically punked out. Holy shit. Yeah. So they, they get it all in trial and the jury's deadlocked and it's declared a mistrial. No. Yes. And this is five years, more than five years of police work

and lawyers work and everything. Yeah. It's declared a mistrial and when it's declared a mistrial, Fred Newlander smiled and the prosecuting attorney saw him smile and the next morning went down and filed for a retrial immediately. It's just like we are doing this again right now. So when the new trial starts, don't eat that paper. When the new trial starts, this time his children testify for the prosecution.

Wow. So Rebecca and Matthew now come and tell the story and it's, the tone is really different and he's like basically, it's very sad. The son is just like my father was watching this whole thing and had no emotions whatsoever and like his mother was murdered and his father didn't care. And so awful. Anyway, at the end of the second trial in 2002, he's declared guilty and

he does this speech at the end that is the lamest and it's like that thing we've seen before where they just talk about themselves and how hard it is for them and what a, and he actually at one point at the end of this kind of rambling speech that kind of makes no sense and he's quoting Bible verse, of course. And then he goes, I and I alone know that I am innocent. And then it's just like, well, listen to what you just said. Yeah.

Like basically like you just said you're super fucking guilty. Right, right. Not being persecuted, you're guilty. No, yeah. But then after that, Carol's brother, Edward, stands up and he goes, in the past eight years, you have acted in a manner so repulsive that words cannot begin to describe the person that you've become. You are a murderer, a liar, a coward, a cheat.

You've dishonored Carol, yourself, your children, this court, the rabbinate, your congregation and Judaism. And I just, as I'm watching City Confidential, I'm just like pausing and writing down every word Edward says because I was like, that's fucking bad. That's powerful. Like you're basically like, whatever you think you're doing, whatever you think you're doing here, it's not work.

You're humiliating yourself. Yeah. God doesn't like you anymore. That's right. You blew it. You blew it. So now he's serving a life sentence. Paul Daniels and Len Janoff were both given 23 years for their parts in the crime.

Wow, that's it. Which is kind of insane that they're the ones that swung the fucking pipe, but it was because it was his plan, Fred's plan. It's like intention. Your intention wasn't to kill your wife. It was to get money for someone else. And also Len Janoff was promised that he was going to get, he's going to go join the Mossad, the Israeli army.

It's called Dinsa, right? That's the Israeli army, the Mossad or it might be Israeli special forces. I don't know. But basically he believed that he was going to go from there to then go be like a super soldier, which just shows that that guy was pretty nuts. He was released from jail in 2014 and Paul Daniels was released in October of 2014. Are you serious? Oh yeah.

Wait, let me see if I missed anything because I wish I could show you how insane these pieces of paper look of my handwriting. I'm handwriting city confidential. I don't know how you can do that. It's kind of fun to like watch TV and then be like, this is important and rewriting it down. But I didn't, I went out of order. Both trials were televised on court TV.

Oh. Yeah. I've never even heard of it. I know. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. And this is, so this guy, Arthur J. Magada wrote a book called The Rabbi and the Hitman about this case.

And this is just one last story from it that I thought was pretty good. So a congregant who was a doctor had been friends with Newlander for 20 years and traditionally went to the Rabbi's house for their annual breaking of the fast after Yom Khor. And when Newlander was charged with this crime before the trials, the physician told Newlander he wasn't going to keep their tradition. And the rabbi wanted to talk it over. And so he went to his friend's house and sitting in the living room, that doctor told Newlander why he believed that he had had his wife killed,

that Newlander never behaved like a grieving widower, that when the physician planned to offer reward for the information about the murder, Newlander asked for the money for himself. Newlander asked his friend to provide a letter explaining that medication he was taking for a heart problem would have caused him to fail his lie detector test. What? And after, and he had a motive because with his wife gone, he didn't have to worry about the mess of doors and he could go on with his lady talk show host,

radio talk show host. So Newlander tries to defend himself saying he loved his wife. And then the doctor says, Fred, no matter what you say, I can't help but like you because you're charming and you're beguiling. But I think you're a psychopath and a murderer. And Newlander stands up to leave, walks a few steps away, then turns back and says, well, nobody's perfect. Ew.

Fuckin' creep. Ew. Uh-huh. Can you imagine? That's your response. Still in your house. And that's what he says to, I think you killed your wife, so I don't want to hang out with you anymore.

And you're a psychopath. You're a psychopath. Like if someone called me a psychopath, it would ruin me. I'd be like, am I? No, I'm not. I'm not. That'd be very hurtful. Yeah, most people would.

What? Yeah. Also a doctor. A doctor. A doctor. Yeah, you can argue with it. And he didn't get his degree from Phoenix. No, I bet you that was a real Cherry Hill doctor.

Yeah, he got his associates from Phoenix, but then he went. He actually got a cosmetology degree because he was interested in stuff like that. Then he was like, no, I like medicine. Yeah, I don't like cutting hair. I like cutting people. Yeah. Wow, that's some fucked up shit. That's the rabbi.

And actually, a couple of people have suggested this one. But Julian McCullough's friend Craig is the one who told me to do it. Ew. Assuming either he listens to the podcast or he just like suggesting things to people. But it was because Craig lives in Cherry Hills, from Cherry Hills. Wow. Yeah. That's fun.

Yeah. I mean, no, that's not what I meant. It's not fun at all. That's a fucked up, terrible thing. That was a good story, though. Okay, thanks. Good. Because I really did have it written online, different pieces of paper.

I'm glad you went after me, though, too. Because. Yes. So we can leave on a slightly, oh yeah, we should talk about a positive, a thing we like. Yeah. A thing that made us happy. Well, I would say, let's see, mine, I have been on the couch a lot since we've got back from Portland.

I mean, it takes a lot out of you. It really does. But then also, once I get on the couch, I have a real hard time getting back off. Like, it's just so much easier to stay there. It is. What are you watching? Modern fans. Oh, yeah.

I T-vote Modern Family, and it is just such a, it's such a well-written show. It's such a good show. The characters are so watchable and likable. I'm so in love with Cam of Mitchell and Cam, the two gags. Oh my God. It's, he's just the best character. It's like, but all of them, they're just so many good jokes. Yeah.

And that's the thing is, it's, TV writing is very hard. And they're, they're, they have been delivering like a plus grade comedy for like 10 years. Yeah. I mean, all I did was enter it and immediately I'd like 15 episodes of Modern Family. And I got it from my sister. I will give her full credit because she's been obsessed with it since the moment it came out. And that's why I have a song where I reference Modern Family. Really?

Where I say in the song, if one more person tells me to watch Modern Family. Oh my God. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And a lot of people are like, oh, you hate that show. It's like, no, no, no. I'm just taking that from a real anecdote of me and my sister. Like every time I talked to my sister on the phone, she would tell me to watch it. I watched it in the beginning and then I stopped.

It's still good. It's amazing. Yeah. It's just, it's just perfectly written. Yeah. That and I've been having great Lyft driver conversations lately. Oh, that's nice. Cause you always get scared or I always get scared that it's like,

I had a nightmare one the other day and I'm just a nightmare person. A nightmare conversationist, which means he was just talking at me and I was getting sick from it. And you go, doot, doot. Earpods, earbuds. That's awesome. That's a sweet one. Yeah.

There's, it's been pretty pleasant, but I really, I have to get a car. It's ridiculous. I'm acting like Miss Daisy, but it's nice sometimes to have like a pleasant conversation where you laugh about how bad drivers in L.A. are. Yeah. Yeah. Which was? Well, I guess I just finished watching it yesterday, but big little lies, which I didn't

think I would like. I never read the book, even though Audible was always like, you might like this, you might like this. And I'm like, no, I won't. You know, like a brat. Sure. And even though, yeah, I don't like that. And so from Oprah's book club, that's the kind of, you know, and then of course it's

fucking amazing, and the show is so good. And it was all these female characters that worked, that their whole lives weren't based on, they had these whole lives around their husbands and families, and they were central characters instead of being the backup singers to their, you know, and it was just like about them, it was about them and their co-star in life was their partner. And it was just kind of cool and the acting was so fucking good and shyly woodley. What's her name? Shailene.

Shailene. Yeah. She's just like, I want to. She's such a great actor. She's so great in it. And it was, it was really fun. It was fucked up and good. And there's a murder and it's a murder mystery.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that because I tried to watch the first, I swear to God, I don't think I got four minutes in. And the first exchange two women had talking to each other, the tones of voice they were using made me turn my TV off because it was like, oh, hi, Arlene. Nice to see you or whatever. Well, they're like, they all come out as like, cunty cunts. Oh, okay.

And then it's like, but there's shit going on underneath the surface. Oh, I'm going back. And it's a murder, it's a whole thing is a murder mystery. Oh shit. And it's, and it's good and they're, everyone is having these, the Nicole Kidman and Alexander Sarsgard relationship was amazing. Cool. Like you just need to watch it to see the two of them.

Nicole Kidman takes a lot of shit, but she's an incredible actress. She, they're going to win all the awards, her and Reese, whether she's been, I think are going to win it all. I sent my friend a gift the other day of, remember when she was clapping at the Oscars? Yes. Someone made that, and I can't figure out if someone did this to the gift or if this is really what it looked like, but it looks like her fingers are this, like it, she looks like she has alien fingers as she's clapping.

I think that's real. Is it what her fans really look like? I don't know. I saw that too. And I, I think it's real. We were, I was laughing anyway when I found it because she, it looks, it looks like flippers. Yeah. It looks like her nails are wet and she's trying not to let them near each other.

But also that she's from Mars. Yeah. That aside, that's me giving her shit when I say she takes a lot of shit, but she, for example, when she started acting in fucking those Australian, you know, I'm the pretty girl at the prep school, right? She has been an incredible, did you ever see dead calm or she's on the boat? Oh my God. If you want to see like an amazing murder, like it's a, not horror, I guess it'd be

suspense or something action, but it's her and Sam Neil, I think, and somebody else, they're on a boat. It's so good. And she is like, it's when she had her kinky curly hair. Yeah. And she had her freckles and she was probably 20. She's so beyond gorgeous. So cute.

Yeah. She's gorgeous. Yeah. And she still is to this day. They all play these wealthy, these wealthy women from Monterey and everyone has these secrets underneath kind of a thing and it's, there's some, you know, it's good. I'm going back. It's fine.

This is a, you need to, I was bummed that I didn't binge watch it because I had a way to week to watch the new one. So get in there. Go binge. Yeah. Also Adam Scott's in it, who I adore. Adam Scott's in it. He plays a really great character.

It's, he's fun. Okay. Yeah. That's a good rap. Yeah. For sure. So that made me happy this week. Anything else we need to?

Oh, I think that we said last episode was like 60. I said it was like 67 and it was 62 or something. I was off by a lot. What's the numbers? So this is 63. But didn't last week I say it was like 67. I mean, Who cares?

Yeah, we're up there past 50. We're good. It's not like someone was setting their watch by like, Oh shit, it's already, I said I was going to do this thing in my life before 67 happened. And now I have a fuck. They're like, you know what, I'm going to stop smoking around episode 67. Yeah. And if I haven't, then I am going to start smoking.

Someone, we made someone start smoking. Where's Elvis? Elvis. Well, you guys, thank you for listening to our friend. Guys, thank you for everything. You are, you are our light and our honor, honor system and heart and soul and honor system. And I mostly you're our honor system. Yeah.

If you take a penny, you leave a penny in our hearts. You've left a penny. You left a penny in my heart. Don't I'll put a nickel in yours. You're going to double down. Um, well, thanks for listening. I don't need it. I don't know.

Stephen, thank you for listening. Thank you for everything. Oh, just maybe you want to come and make her debut. Maybe she does. I mean her triple, her triple appearance. Yeah. Third time's a charm. Mimi.

Stay sexy everybody. And don't get murdered. Mimi. Bye. Bye. Mimi want cookie? Mimi. Oh, God, it's cute.

She's the Nicole Kidman of cats. She is. Mimi want cookie? Want cookie? Oh, Elvis, here he is. Want cookie?