My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 71 - Put It In A Door

Episode Date: June 1, 2017

This week, Karen and Georgia cover John Crutchley the Vampire Rapist, angel of death Genene Jones and the Netflix series The Keepers.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. This is a podcast, and that's Karen Calguera.

And that's over there, Georgia, Hard Stark. Hi. We're the hosts. We're the hosts. We're all planned out, super, and it's very naturally delivered. We're actually reading a teleprompter right now. It's one of those invisible ones, so if you were looking at us, you wouldn't be able to see it, but we can see the words that are scrolling on it.

Stephen's actually mouthing the words to us that we have to be saying right now. Yes. Stephen's down below the stage in a little half shell, the way they used to do it in the Appareta Times, whispering our lines to us. Yeah, we have a little earpiece in. We're like newscasters, but Stephen is the director up in the control room. Yeah. Breaking news.

None of that's true. Breaking news, this podcast is starting. In case you couldn't tell. In five. That was a ruse. The whole thing. It was a trick. The whole thing has been a trick.

I think my cat barked on the couch sitting. Can you smell it or feel it? I don't want to say feel it, but that's true. But that might be the horrible truth. Yeah, well, off to a gross start. Yay. How's it going? Really good.

I'm getting over what I believe to be near death pneumonia, but it's probably just a standard chest cold. It's probably the plague. Knocked me out. I didn't get to do anything I wanted to do this weekend or week. So I'm a little bit like when you don't see anybody for four days and then you're all like everything's real intense. And you forget how to speak to people.

You've only been yelling at your dogs, probably. I will probably tell you the plot of a sitcom as a conversation where it's like she walked in the kitchen. It was so crazy. What did you watch? Like, did you have like a thing that you got through the whole time? I did start watching a series on. I have a one of those.

I won't name the name of it because I don't like it that much, but it's one of those. We have all the British shows apps. So I watched a bunch of obscure British procedurals that weren't the best and also weren't the worst. So that's sometimes I'm in the mood for just truly mediocre television and I can just watch a ton of it. You know what I did the other night? I was home alone and I was like scrolling and you can't decide what to watch.

And like my TV, whatever kind it is, like pop, it pops up all these options and one of them was YouTube. And I'm like, who the fuck watches YouTube on television? Like it's a very foreign thing to me. The children. Yeah. And I clicked on it to see like what videos they were like offering. And I got in a deep, dark hole of men doing tutorials of makeup.

Yes. I mean, they were fucking famous and they were talking about like the scant like, like they were talking to these people who watch it every day. And they're like, I know this thing happened and people said this about me on the internet, like their stories. And like, I looked one of them up because I was like, what happened? And like one of them said something kind of racist on accident. And it was just this whole world that I am not familiar with at all.

And now you're like right in front and center, like, yeah, bring me that drama on that YouTube drama. Yeah. Did you see the one that's the little boy doing that insane makeover and whoever tweeted it, it was this great short video of a boy who maybe was nine or 10 doing insanely amazing makeup on himself. Incredible makeup. And the person that tweeted it said some fucked up thing like, yeah, like, what would you

do if this was your child? And all these huge famous people and all these awesome people and cool people wrote back like Samantha Ronson, the DJ, she wrote back like sit back and enjoy the, the life he's going to give me as like, as a, you know, business, like basically he's gonna be rich and famous and he's gonna take care of me as his parent. And like all David Cross wrote back, throw my Bible away and love him unconditionally. And all this stuff where it's just like, it's this world where it's so funny when people get onto social media thinking that they're going to like rally their troops in one way

where it's like, no, that's not the world anyone lives in anymore. Yeah. Little boys doing amazing like contour Kardashian level makeup is standard fair. Yeah. And he's welcome. Have you seen though the little kids who do the bad ones? No. Like one little girl like was like clearly obsessed with makeup tutorials because she

knew exactly how to do everything and she might have been like seven or eight. And so she just like sneaks into her mom's room and she's like whispering the whole time and like starts doing a makeup tutorial and just makes her face look like how a seven year old would make think you could make up on. And it was just the cutest thing. And I think her mom comes in at the end and she's like, oh, I gotta go. It was just like, it's so sweet. I love it.

Also, I can watch because my friend April Richardson's obsessed with makeup tutorials and makeup herself. So there have been times where she's good at it. She's really, yeah, she's and she's all got. So she's all about like, I'm going to wear a blue lipstick and this red eyeshadow. But there was a night where we were started to watch some, it may have been like a Republican debates night or something where we got into something really tense and upsetting. And then at the end of that, she's like, hold on, and then just flipped on this girl that

was just doing this insane, like Susie Sue, amazing eye makeup. And it's so soothing to watch someone. It's just like watching an artist draw. A bunch of people on Twitter were like, that I, because I tweeted about a bunch of people comment, they're like, try the hair ones. I bet the hair ones are so soothing. My niece, Nora is obsessed with the hair ones. There are two sisters.

There's a whole family. They're like twins or something. They're twins. And then the mother's a hairdresser. And she'll get in there and be like, here's Elsa's hair from Frozen. And here's this, this, this. Well, now these girls, they started when they were like 10 years old. Now they're in high school.

And my sister's like, they're like Nora's friends. That's like, she's been watching. No way. She's little. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah. So they get on there and they're like, here's our first day of school hair. And then they show you what they're going to do.

And they show your mom how to do your hair. Basically. It's the cutest. I love it. Good for them. God bless us, everyone. God bless us. And good night.

Good night. This has been YouTube corner. What do we have? Oh, you have that email. Oh, I have an email to read to you guys. A real good one. It's a kind of a correction. It's a clarification corner.

Yeah. Is that anything? It's called tip from NYPD. I was just listening. Maybe that should be the whole, a whole new area tips from the NYPD. Great. Yeah. Everyone sending your tips.

And this is actually a guy who sent us a tip or no, a woman who sent us a tip from a friend who was in the NYPD. So you don't directly need to be. Secondhand tips. Yeah. We're all about it. Secondhand tips from those in the now. Corner.

Yeah. It has to, the source has to be factual and in the know, though. Please keep that in mind. But we're not going to do any fact checking. No. That's on you. You don't need to either. Okay.

Hi. It's really, it's really structured. There's a lot of rules. It's more of a storytelling corner. Yeah. Don't, just don't. Okay. Hi.

I was just listening to you guys explain that you should ask a cop to see their ID and their badge in which we talked about recently and wanted to share recommendation from a friend of mine who was a retired NYPD after 20 years. If a cop, quote, cop comes to your door and you weren't expecting them, you shouldn't open the door. You should call 911 and ask the operator if they're supposed to be cop at your house. Yes. The 911 operator should confirm with the officers and you should be able to hear that confirmation

over the police radio through the door, which is like so intense. And I feel like most people would be like, Oh, I don't want to be like, that's intense. That's a lot of steps. If they aren't a real cop, you won't hear that and won't get confirmation and 911 will know that there is an impersonator at your door. And you'll, it'll be an impersonator. So even if you're like, Oh, I went through too many steps, you know, have a person that was trying to get into your house and you now have 911 on the line and you know, they're

not full of shit. And it's like, well, I would be like, well, what if they break my door down, which they can't do unless they have a warrant and then wait, but then it would be the police. And that would mean if they were breaking your door down, that would mean you were in there with like a hostage or something. I mean, like that's, yeah, they don't break your door down when they just need to come and talk to you. Right.

But if the guy, if the killer breaks your door down, then you're already on the phone with 911. That's right. That's exactly right. Also, it's not going to happen. I mean, what are the chances? Get a new front door. If it's that easy.

Yeah. Well, our old front door, my old place was like a bedroom door. Was it really? Yeah. It was like hollow. I know this because I fucking patched over it. But I put a note in it first, but it was just a total hollow bedroom door. What did the note say?

It was like a wish, which I don't do very often, but it came true. I think it said like, I wish to be mildly successful and very happy. Fucking. Stop. Stop. I don't need to be like extreme. I'm not asking for everything. Wait a second.

Did you just start a new trend of putting wishes inside doors and patching over? I mean, that's amazing. I think it's a thing of like hiding wishes. There's a wishing tree in Griffith Park on a path and someone just puts paper in a pen up there and there's like a hollow in the tree and you just drop your wish in there. What would your wish be? Tree your door. Because it's two different scenarios.

Or it could be tree, door, birthday, cake, anything. Oh, aren't you not supposed to say? Can you tell? You can probably say the door wish. I'll tell Steven and then he'll tell you. Okay. It could be, you know, because Steven's such a gossip. Okay.

How about because I just told the door wish, the door wish you're allowed to say, but the birthday and tree, you're not allowed to say. Oh, well, right now it would be to meet somebody that was exciting, that would make me not feel dead inside anymore. Yeah. So you're not going to meet like a nice, I don't know what's a job that a guy could be that architect? Yeah.

A trade, like something that's just like yourself sufficient and you're not, your job isn't to judge or rate other people. I always thought mechanics probably were cool, who like specialize in a certain kind of like old car and they're like the best in their trade or tattoo artists would be fun. Tattoo artists would be very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Just like one of those guys, you know, sometimes you see people fixing the road as you drive

by, they've got like a hard hat and an orange shirt. Yeah. They've got a guy they've ever seen and will ever see. And he's probably so down to earth. Right. Well, well, let's punch a hole in your door and let's get the wish going. Let's do it. Let's let's do my closet door, which is a mirror.

Oh, that'd be fun. And then you have seven years. Good luck. Right. That's the. This is a classic example of if you've just tuned in, you have no idea what this podcast is about or why it's a what the fuck moment for all of you. Don't worry.

We'll get to the murder. Don't worry about it. It's going to get real dark. So calm down. If you're really into dark stuff. Oh, Canada. We have an exciting announcement. Oh, yeah.

Toronto specifically, because I feel like a bunch of people in what's a Canada city. Oh, don't ask me. Regina. Regina. I'll always remember Regina because when I was helping Wanda Sykes, I think it was last year or two years ago when she had a gala, she had, she was hosting the gala at JFL and we did this really funny bit. But the very end, it was a joke of naming cities and I didn't know Regina was a city

I could have named. Yeah. That's basically a joke in and of itself. Calgary. There's my. But in terms of naming, it was like a thing. It just would have been the perfect cause it sounds like a dirty joke in and of itself. Do you know all I want in life, aside from mild fame, mild success and extreme happiness

is to get invited to a lot of gallows with silent auctions? Really? I love them. Do you, and by that you mean like a big benefit? Yeah. Like a, yeah. Like it's $500 a plate type of thing. Yeah, but I don't want to pay.

No, I'll pay. Well, we can get you sponsored. Yeah. We'll get somebody else. But I'll buy silent auction stuff. Okay. Cause that's for you. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm also giving money. So it's like, okay. At the last one I went to, a room was a Ronald McDonald house one and I bid because I thought it'd be funny on a guy Fieri like set. Oh, you're pronouncing that correctly. Fieri, Guy Fieri, set. Oh.

Stephen cut that. It's embarrassing. No, no, no. No, it's so, it's so good to correctly pronounce Guy Fieri's name. Well, I met him once and he was really nice. So I feel like I deserve, he deserves that respect even though it's made up and it's actually Fieri, I think. Not kidding.

Oh, and so I won like a huge, and I won because nobody else paid on it. So I got like a cookbook and a big Guy Fieri night, Fieri night that says Guy Fieri on the side. And it's like the biggest butcher knife. It's like not supposed to be this big. Yeah. And it's intense. A cartoon butcher knife.

Yeah. Maybe like some hot Guy Fieri hot sauce. Like I won a thing. It's so good. But it, you know, the money went to, it's for charity. For charity. He is, or lived in my hometown. Right.

It was one year when Nora was like four years old and they have this thing where daytime trick or treating in downtown Petaluma. And we were, I was taking her around because you get to go into stores and they give little kids candy. I love that. The cutest. And he was there with his kid. Aw.

And I was like, I know that guy. This was before his, no. Transition into. International fame. Into Fieri. Into Mr. Fieri. From Fieri to Fieri. But does, is that how he pronounces it?

He, I think it's Fieri, Steven. But no one in, no one on anywhere else says that though. Can we get an opening of Diner's Dive, which by the way is a great show to put on in the background. Diner's Dive's and whatever. I don't know why I'm, what's it, promoting Guy Fieri so hard. Why am I doing that? I feel like I'm making you feel defensive about this pronunciation thing, which I don't

mean to do. No, I feel like I never realized how much I'm a champion. I didn't know. We spilled yams on him on stage once, so, and he was really nice and okay. Yeah. He does take, he takes a lot of shit. That's for sure. That's just because he bleaches and then gels his hair.

And puts his glasses on backwards. And he's just a dude. He's just a, he's a regular dude. He's not a YouTube star dude. He's a dude dude. He's a dude dude that's never claimed to be anything but a dude dude. Right. Yeah.

Okay. Live your truth. We have hats on online at my favorite murder. If you want to wear a hat backwards, go to my favorite murder shirts. But we're going into the announcement. I'm going into, I'm going into merch corner. Okay, but we, we were just going into, I thought we were doing something else. I started the other one.

What was it? The JFL announcement. Oh shit. I thought we were done. I thought we were done. I thought we were done. I thought we were done. I thought we were done.

We have hats online. We have hats online. I thought we were done. The Guy Ferry corner and it was done. All right. Dude, this is probably the most ADD episode we have ever recorded. I am only on like two cups of coffee. There's nothing.

I haven't taken anything today. I just feel like I'm not actually here. Right. Okay. Yeah. Shut up about Guy Ferry. Yeah. Toronto is like, you told us we had something to hear.

It was Guy Ferry. And then you're not telling us. We wanted to tell you. It's the correct pronunciation of Guy Ferry's name, which is Fiedi. Yeah. Also, we're coming to your city, but don't worry about it. And even you have the actual information. Please give it.

The show info, it's at the Sony Center. It's September 30th at 9.45 PM and it goes on sale Friday, June 2nd, which is tomorrow. Not from recording, but for when it's released at 10 a.m. Eastern 7 a.m. Pacific. And the link is JFL42.com, but we'll tweet it out. So if that wasn't smooth in the beginning, the point is we've been invited to perform at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Toronto. And so it'll be our first show in Toronto ever, which is thrilling. And tickets go on sale tomorrow.

Yeah. Like, yeah. That's it. It's going to be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Guy Ferry won't be there. Maybe he'll be our hometown.

Do you think we can get him on to be our hometown murder? Yeah. Let's try it. Let's just see. Let's just... He knows you. You know each other. Let's put it out in the universe.

Let's stick it in a door. Let's put it in a fucking... Let's knock down another... Yet another door. Hold on. I changed my wish. You can have both. Wait.

We know. You and Guy Ferry fall in love. Oh my God. Both of them become one. So many. Yeah. What if... Just let's picture it for a minute.

You were like, I'm so against it and it turns out he's the most wonderful person you've ever met. Look, I'm not against a person that can cook. Yeah. God bless your soul. Oh. Because I tell you last night as I was buying the pre-made chicken rice and broccoli dish that they have at Vaughn's, I was picking it up.

It's cold or hot? You heat it up. Okay. But it's kind of like a... It's a little bit of a deli item. But anyway, as I was picking it up, I was just like, this is not how you're supposed to be at this age, at this stage. Like I should have learned by now and just have a couple dishes you make for yourself

for dinner and be an adult instead of just like, I don't believe in it. Meanwhile, Guy Ferry's in my kitchen. He pulls it. He turns the stove all the way up to 12. He throws a pan down. He's throwing things into that pan. The thing of like, I don't have anything in my kitchen. He's like, I'll figure something out and like, pull things from places you didn't even know

you had and was just like, throw it together. I fucking love that. He pulls a bag of baby carrots that are all small and gray and he's like, it takes two minutes to bring these back to life. All you do is, I don't know, boil them. Vince feeds me a lot because he realizes I won't do it myself because I'm not really an adult. So I'll just eat spicy mango from Trader Joe's.

It's delicious. So he's like, he just starts making dinner sometime without even asking me what I want or like, what do I want to do? Yeah. This is just happening. Yeah. So it happens. And so it's not a discussion.

What happens? So it happens. I'm just saying like, that's his thinking is like, let's just get this going. And he makes nice Midwestern, you know, family protein and a vegetable on like a grain or something. It's just like, oh my God. God damn it. I know.

God damn that guy. Sorry. I know, I support you. Well, even when you and Guy are together, he and Vince can have cookoffs. I'm going to have, I'm going to be wearing his sunglasses as a headband in my hair while he cooks me broccoli in a way that's going to make me want to eat it. What if you guys cook together? Nope.

Karen, chop this thing. That's going to be why we break up. He's going to give you like jobs. And so you're going to feel like part, oh my God, I'm in love with this couple. But I'm immediately going to cut my finger, blame him, start screaming and then go watch NCIS. I'll cut. Stop talking to him.

That's a great relationship. It's going to be good. So the point is myfavoritmurdershirts.com. We have hats for sale. I think we're going to have a hat sale at the beginning of June. I don't know. Let's go. There's a lot of shit.

It's really cool. So much great stuff. We cop advice, hats for sale, live show. We're going to plug some pins because we keep getting really cool pins. We were going to plug specific pins. Then we decided, why don't we just plug, go to Etsy and look up my favorite murder pins because so many different people make so many great pins. Those cool enamel ones, like there's a lot of really cool enamel ones.

There's a lot of great little, I mean, it's, they're the best. And you can get all your slogans and your sayings and it's very cool. And we appreciate all the people that make pins equally. You're all our guy fears. I mean, except for, no, there's nobody. What if I just called the one person I called out was someone I didn't like their pin. There's a little design flaw on this one. No.

And then we're going to talk about the keepers. So this is, we've been, people have been asking us over and over, obviously on social media to talk about these, these things, these things that come up that are true crime. These TV shows. These TV shows. Or like, yeah. And the keepers. So I watched it.

I did the thing where I started watching it in the afternoon and then stayed up all night watching the entire thing. I think I texted you and was like, I'm about to start this. I think we like press play at the same time. Yeah, we did. And then we texted for the beginning and then I think we both stopped because we were both just like so engrossed in it. Yeah.

Well, I had to leave. Oh, or you had to leave. We stopped talking, but then I had to pause it and I was so mad. I had to go to a show and all I wanted to do is come back and keep watching it. It was, it's the most amazing series about, it starts off, you think you know what it's about. Yeah. Here's how I keep explaining it to people who don't know.

When nun gets killed in the late sixties, she's a high school teacher. She's a wonderful person. You think that's what it's about. Yeah. And then next episode and the rest of it is priest who was the principal fucking all the high school students. Did she get killed? Are they, are they, this is exactly how I explain it.

This is not how I explain it. Usually I've had two white wines before I explain it and it's a lot smoother. And you're yelling over music in a bar. Yeah. And I'm yelling at somebody who doesn't want, doesn't care about true crime. Right. Okay. So you go.

Well, no. I mean, it is all that. I think he was the counselor though. Okay. So, but he was definitely like the parishioner. I don't know. You tell me. Yeah.

I'll tell you all about it. Okay. So in the Catholic church. Yeah. Let's start from the beginning. They brought him in. So it's a Catholic high school in Baltimore. All girls.

All girls high school. And they bring this guy in as a counselor. And so the girls get called into the counselor's office. And the way they tell, okay, first of all, let's just say this. You meet these two women who had gone to that school, were taught by sister Kathy, the nun that got murdered. And they are trying to find out her cold case, how she got murdered, why she got murdered, what happened.

Because one of them is having these memories repressed. She's an old, you know, she's in her 40s. She's a mom and a wife with the fucking best husband. Am I wrong? He's like the best. Yes. That's a different. I'm talking about this too.

Oh, that everyone's saying are the Karen and Georgia murdering know characters. The actual investigate the investigative and they're the best. They're the best. All you want to do is sit at that kitchen table with them and talk about this stuff. Kat Solin said she's going to be the redheaded one for Halloween. Like that's the best thing I've ever heard in my life. That woman is so awesome. I wish I'd looked up her name, but they're, they're just basically going.

We loved our teacher. We want to know. We don't think it's right that she was murdered and that the case went cold. We want to know what happened. And in their digging, they start finding out these things simultaneously, but not, not knowing across town. The woman, Georgia was talking about starts having a repressed memory start coming to her of things that happened to her.

And there and when she breaks down crying at her table, after she tells a very detail and there, these two women who come forward, who are the Jane does are so brave, I can't even handle it. Yeah. Because what happened to them, it's the thing and this is the thing that happens. It's so upsetting when you watch these like Catholic church, molestation stories. It's the absolute abuse of power and the predatory nature of these priests or, you know, whatever whoever the story is about.

But in this case, this priest who would pick girls who he knew had single parents, he knew their parents had been recently divorced. He knew that they were maybe going through some stuff themselves. Maybe even already molested, already being molested. So it was like, well, it's almost like if you in the wild had to be like, here are the steps of how children, how, how people pick children get molested because these people have free reign and it's like point for point, the grooming and the threatening and these, it's just so awful.

It's awful and it's the thing of back then because I think it was 1970, right? I think it was like 68 or 69 when she got murdered. Okay. Maybe 70. Yeah. But basically in that, in that realm, this was back when, if a priest called you to his office, you just get up and leave class and go and nobody around would go, why is he calling you there?

You don't need to be alone in an office with that man or there was nothing quite the opposite where they had, they had complete power over where children went, what they did when they went there. Like you were special if you got called to the office almost. Yes. And, oh, and the worst part is that priest found the woman who you were talking about. We should know these people's names and I can't remember, but the woman who broke down when she was telling that story, she went to him and in confession confessed to him that

she had been molested as a child and that's how he knew to pick on her. And he said, she's asked for forgiveness and he was like, I don't know if you, I don't know if we can do that and I'll help you get for, oh, it's, listen, let me tell you this as a Catholic for a long, long life Catholic, sorry, did I yell to even just pull this thing off? But let me tell you this, the way confession works is you go into that box, you spill your guts and the priest who is, who is there as a, as like a, what do you call that, almost like the voice of God, he's there to go because in the Bible it says, you ask for forgiveness

and you get it. So, and people know this now, but it makes me so mad because in that moment when he said, I don't know if God can forgive you, ding, ding, ding, red light, no, that it's not yours to say. Well, how scary to know that he forgives everything and accept this thing that you've done. Yeah. Anyways, I think the Keepers is one of the fucking best one documentaries.

I am engrossed. I have 20 fucking minutes left and I almost don't want to get through it. On the last episode? Yeah. Yes. Because you don't want to let it go. It's like seven episodes, I think, and it is just, yeah. The reason I found the YouTube thing is because I needed a break because I was so fucking engrossed

and depressed about it. It's so heavy. It's so much to like absorb, but I will also say this, the person, I believe the director's name was Ryan White, the one name I remember. And kudos to him because in those interviews, when people start crying, they must have felt a level of comfort talking to him about this and the way he conducted those interviews, not only when he was talking to the victims, did they really share so much of themselves and like obviously feel comfortable enough to express their real emotions, which is a

very difficult thing to do, but then like later on when he was talking to that guy who is now in chart, the Baltimore police chief, where he was just hearing these things and then going, yeah, we'll have to look, but you saw on his face, he was like, what the hell is going on that he's being informed about how these cases were handled in the past. And then the interview with the guy who's the suspect, that old dude, oh my God. And the other thing that drives me crazy, of course, because this is our fucking thing that we hate, is that the only reason the statute of limitations isn't up on the smallest

station charge is because it's a repressed memory that just came through. So if they have to prove in court, not only that they were molested, but that they just remembered it. Yes. Which must be impossible to prove in itself, but how sick is that? Yeah. How sick is that that if you didn't remember it later, you couldn't go after this. The statute of limitations makes me fucking ill, and I think someday we're going to be,

if the fucking apocalypse hasn't come already, we're going to be. I feel like that is changing in some places. It is. I don't know about Baltimore, but yeah, when they all start going and it's not just that school or just that specific priest, but there's a part near the end where a lot of people are going to talk about how that law needs to change. There's a lot of victims, I think, who get their power back by changing laws, and I think that's a big one.

Unfortunately, most of those are never retroactive, which is such a fucking bummer and it pisses me off. It's insane. Especially because with these sexual molestations and even rapes and all these things, it's like victims don't want to come forward and tell it right away because it's traumatic and it's opening them again, but once they get their strength and are older. But by then. Well, the crazy part is everything, it becomes dependent on a person who's been victimized.

It's really amazing to having done this podcast for the short amount of time that we've done it, how much I've come to learn and understand about the victims and the positions they get put in and how much is put on them. And no one's going, I mean, not that no one is, but it was like, so it's all just depending on whether or not this girl who has been traumatized and victimized and truly, like her entire childhood has been completely ruined and screwed up and she's just blocked entire things out and all this stuff. But it's all just on her shoulders.

Nothing is on that fucking monster priest. Well, it's that thing of innocent until proven guilty, the person being accused, but the person who's accusing them is lying until proven otherwise almost, which is just not, it's like, I know innocent until proven guilty is a strong thing in our society and it's needed and necessary, but it's that that means that the person who is bringing the charges is a liar until proven otherwise. Well, when you have those kinds of lawyers, the lawyers that were the lawyers for the Catholic church that were defending this priest, I don't know how they sleep at night, I don't

know how they sleep at night, especially after this podcast, after this series where you're just like the way they were arguing and the things that they did and said, and the fact that ultimately the fact that they are supposed to be representatives of the church is just the ultimate hypocrisy and the shittiest, just like, what are you fighting for? You got to look at that, like you, you're basically accusing these people of like, they're going to sacrifice their whole life and credibility for like, cause they're trying to chisel money out of you. I don't think so.

They can't even come out as their real names or Jane Doe because they will be fucking attacked by not just the church, but people who are like, it's just every fucking, every episode don't skip one. There's like a new revelation that's fucking incredible, but it's really hard to watch. It's very hard to watch. And also it's pre spotlight. So like, they were really the first ones that, that made an actual dent and a mark. And I remember, but I just didn't separate the cities because I remembered the spotlight

things happening in Boston, but the, these ones that happened in Baltimore, they, this Jane Doe, these two women really were the ones that came forward and like started making a dent. Yeah. I had never heard of it. I mean, it's an incredible show. Got to watch it. It's amazing.

Last week on shows we love, we'll talk about mommy, dad, and dearest. That's right. You know, we owe you guys. Yes. However, the keepers came and it was just like, Oh, my, all my attention is here. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. How much longer do we have? Seven minutes. Episode over. Um, who goes first? First questions. Uh, Karen does this week. Okay.

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on your first box when you go to hello.fresh.ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20. Goodbye. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. School police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry.

As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. All right. It's my turn. Yes. It's my turn to shine. Now this is a suggestion.

This could be one of our ones where the assembly suggested this to both of us. So, I was actually thinking as I was writing this, I'm like, what if Georgia saw this one too? When did they suggest it? I can't remember. Maybe a week ago. On Twitter? Uh-huh.

It's at Miss New Judy suggested it to both of us. And anytime people suggest them to us, I open it up and I look at the thing and then I'm like, sometimes I'll go like, I should do that and I never think about it again. And sometimes I go, I know that one already or whatever. I've started bookmarking them in my... So when I'm frantically on Tuesday morning going, what do I do, what should I do? Yeah. You have those ones waiting for you.

Yeah. Well, this one, when I opened it up, I immediately was so entranced and horrified that I was like, this is going to be my next one. This sounds fun. So thank you, Miss New Judy, for suggesting it. It's so good. It's John Crutchley, the vampire rapist. Love it already.

Have you heard? No. Okay. Clearly, I didn't see that tweet. All right. So this took place around Thanksgiving in 1985 in Malibar, Brevard County, Florida, which is so Brevard County and Malibar, I guess. I looked it up on a map.

So I had no idea what I was talking about. It's right on the coast. It's on the east coast of Florida and it's 77 miles southeast of Orlando. So it's basically middle going toward the bottom, but right on the water. All right. So that's what happened. It's Thanksgiving 1985 and a man is driving down the road and he sees a young woman totally naked, her hands are handcuffed and her ankles are handcuffed and she's hopping down the

road. Oh my God. So he pulls over, he gets her into his car and she's totally weak. She's covered in dirt. She's panicked. She points to the house nearby and says, remember that house to him. He drives her to his house where his wife is. They call the cops and an ambulance and she gets taken to the hospital and the doctors

find out that 40 to 45% of her blood is gone. No. Yes. So she has been and she then tells them the story of what's happened to her and it goes a little something like this. One, two, one, two, three, four. Okay, so she was hitchhiking. It's, you know, it's 1985.

It hadn't been totally taken out of our society yet. She's hitchhiking down the road. A guy pulls over, he's wearing a business suit. He's wearing a suit. He looks, you know, he looks like a professional businessman is what she said. And he's just very casually is like, where do you need to go? I'll take you there. She jumps into the car as they're driving.

He goes, sorry, I just have to stop at my house. Really quick. Jump out and roll. I mean, jump out then because you've now deviated from the plan. Only give them one deviation from the plan, I would say. And then you're not familiar with your surroundings. I mean, not that it's either way, but then you're not like... You're not on your way to the place you want to go.

Right. I know how to get there. Yeah, exactly right. So they pull into his driveway. He invites her in. She says, no, I'll wait in the car. He says, fine. He goes into the house for a little while.

He comes back out and then he goes, sorry, I just have to get something out of the back seat really quick. He goes into the back seat behind the passenger seat and then he wraps a quarter round her neck and begins to strangle her. He chokes her out in the car. She wakes up the next thing she knows, she's on the kitchen counter. She's tied down to the kitchen counter naked and she is blindfolded with tape so she can see underneath the bottom of it, not like material laying flat.

So she can see that she's on a kitchen counter naked. He's standing next to her naked and he has set up a video camera on a tripod. So he's videotaping it. He proceeds to rape her on that table. Then he explains to her that he's a vampire and she feels a prick in her arm and he begins to drain blood from her arm and drink it. How, what at that moment is she like, oh, fuck. What level of, so you're probably in shock when something like that happens to you, but

then I think things would just get real black and white, like you just be like, I need to get out of here now. How do I get out of here? How do I get out of here? Yeah. So basically, I talked through that and then lost my place. Oh, sorry. No, no.

Okay. So, so then he takes her and he puts her in the bathtub and later that day he comes back, he gets her, takes her out of the bathtub, puts her on his bed, tranquilizes her, some strong drug and rapes her again, then drains her blood again and drinks it again, brings her back to the bathtub. And the next day she wakes up and he does it again. And then he tells her he has to leave the house, but not to try to escape because his brother's there and he'll kill her if she tries to escape.

She hears the car leave and then she manages, so she's now had her blood drained three times. She manages to get up and to kind of stand and pull herself up to the tiny bathroom window that's above the bathtub. Can you imagine how dizzy she is at that point? I mean, and also just like the amount of times I say I'm tired when I have done fuck all all day long is shocking. And I think about things like this where when you have to like dig from the bottom and like really powered yourself through, it's like, I hope I'm going to be able to do that.

I got up this morning and got really dizzy and like and I hadn't even done anything and there's no blood stolen from my person got a hundred percent of your blood. I have a hundred percent. 110. No. Probably. What if Elvis is drinking your blood at night? That's kind of cute.

Yeah. That's how that's why you're so bonded. Okay. So she pulls herself up. She sees that the lock on this bathroom window is broken. So she opens it up and she fucking pulls herself up somehow pulls herself up and shimmy knees out of this window and falls down to the ground outside of the window. This is Mary Vincent level badassery.

Yes. It's amazing. And it's yeah, it's just pure. She knows that this can't go on like this isn't she doesn't have time, right? What I love is that she being told there's somebody that's going to kill her does it anyway because she knows it's bullshit, it's fucking bullshit. So there's a cop in this one of the like the shows that I watched about this guy, a cop who says if you saw this window, you wouldn't understand how a person got got out of it.

Wow. Like she made herself fit through a tiny bathroom window and got out and that's when and then she crawled to the road and finally got herself up. And when she started hopping, they said a couple of the there's different on murder media, a couple of the articles say different things, but one says that a couple of trucks passed her before anybody picked her up and then finally that that guy picked her up, which also that how hard would it be to get into a strange strange man's car? Also have that that thinking of and this is probably from Goonies of like, what if it

was the guy coming home that was the vampire? Yes, exactly right. You get into the car the person that got you there in the first place and it's like to me that's like the worst horror movie of like no, it's almost made it. Yeah. Yeah, but she makes it so the doctors at the hospital say if she had stayed there one more night, she'd definitely be dead because you there's so much blood gone that they kind of are amazed she got herself out of there.

So so she when she got into the car, I told you that already right where she said remember that house, which is my favorite because it's just like she was on she was like getting she had done. So they girl is a vintage murderer now. Yeah, she really you know what I mean? Yeah, she's taking care of business. Yeah, she knows she knows the signs and signals. Yeah.

I mean, they go back to the house and they have a search warrant to go back into the house. So I've completely lost my place. You might have to fix this part, Steven. Well, I'm impressed right now that you just like I see you and I'm watching you and this is all off the top of your head. Yes, because I it's so when those ones happen where it's like it's not just a standard awful thing, but it goes into the world of almost a cult where you're like these people.

It's when you see the house in the video, right house on the side of the road that looks kind of nice. It looks like nice family lives there and inside is like nightmare town beyond anyone's like you wouldn't even know what was happening to you if somebody was draining and drinking your blood. Yeah. Insanity. Yeah.

So when you get a search warrant of 39 year old John Crutchley's home, his wife and child had been out of town for the Thanksgiving weekend. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So he's a family man. Oh, my God. When they get there, they find the video camera equipment that she described, but the tape inside had been recorded over.

Had he already come home and he knew she was gone? Yes. Okay. Probably because that so this videotape is recorded over, right? They also find and photographs stacks of credit cards in other people's names and they find a pile of jewelry hidden in the back of a closet, all women's jewelry. And so, and they photograph that. So they arrest John Crutchley on kidnapping and rape charges.

So the police in Brevard County realize they have an advanced predator and this is not standard fare for them. So they call the FBI. Good for them. Who shows up? But Robert Restler. So Robert Restler, we've talked about a couple of times, but he's the famous FBI agent who worked in the behavioral science unit.

He worked there for years. He's the guy that developed Vicap that basically enabled cops to start communicating on a national database to put in the MOs of killers so that uncaught cold cases and uncaught crimes that people could enter them in and go, is there anybody else that likes to drain the blood of young women? That's Robert Restler. What a badass motherfucker. He should have like, you know, B-A-M-F.

You know, it's the last letters of your name when you're like a doctor or like a PhD. Instead of M-D. Yeah. He's B-A-M-F. Bad ass motherfucker. So they thank God they call him in and he immediately has a profile going for this guy and he immediately tells the cops this is an organized serial killer who has definitely killed before. Because you don't have a person that's this comfortable picking somebody off the street

and doing this crazy shit in his home. He didn't even take her somewhere neutral. He took her to his home. He's done it before. This is the result of escalation, not the beginning. Exactly right. Yeah. This isn't your first swing into, I think I'm a vampire, what should I do?

Or I think I'm a rapist. How do I do this? Yeah. Let me do what I want all the time. And he also, I'm pretty sure Jack Crawford from Silence of the Lamb is based on him. He's the one, Robert Restler is the one that wrote a book called Whoever Fights Monsters. Oh yeah. I was looking at that from another murder.

There's so much information in there. Yeah. It's supposed to be the best book. I've never read it though. I'm going to read it. That's going to be my next book. Me too. Let's buy it together.

Okay. Good. Should we listen to it? I wonder if it's a good audiobook. I like the idea of listening to it. Let's do it. It's so much easier. It's so much easier.

I'm in my car so much more than I'm in my reading room. I promise your house will be so clean as soon as you get into an audiobook that you're into. Yeah. That's very true. Okay. So Whoever Fights Monsters by Robert Restler. Let's do a read-along.

Fuck yeah. But he's also just the guy that like he puts it all together in that super interesting scientific way where it's the guy that's like serial killers are 90% or more are white men between the ages of 28 and 30, whatever. That's this guy. Yeah. Those are fascinating when they're so correct. He does this kind of business.

He's in this kind of thing. He has this family. It's just like. And then they find the guy and it's like almost every time it seems like they match exactly. And I keep thinking like, no fucking way. That's crazy. And it's too simple. And then it's like exactly.

Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. Robert Restler, A plus. So okay, excuse me. So they start because once they bring him in and he tells them this, they start looking at missing person's cases around Brevard County. And they find that there have been four dead unidentified women's bodies that have been discovered in that county in the previous year.

Wait, that didn't immediately ring some bells. I mean, I don't know how big that place is, but yeah, that's fucking insane. Yeah. In the area, they had in the one year four dead women that they didn't know who they were. I can't breathe. Then wrestler notices that John Crutchley has moved a lot and changed jobs a lot. So they start looking at places he used to live.

They look into his last known addresses and they see there's a number of cold cases involving missing and the unidentified bodies of young women. So they start basically gathering up all this information. So just a quick background, the saddest sentence that I've ever read on Wikipedia is about John Crutchley. It's the beginning of his Wikipedia entry and it's born to a well to do family in Pittsburgh. John Crutchley was a friendless child. A friendless child.

How can that be? And also when you look at his picture, if you've ever seen the movie Rent, there's an actor named Anthony Rapp who has like strawberry blonde hair. He could play John Crutchley. He would have to get creep out, make up done and probably lose a lot of like not that he's in it. He's perfectly fit to person, but he doesn't have the same exact face, but he's basically matches that.

He'll do it for a role. But anyway, it's just he looks, he has like panic eyes. He has dark eyes and blonde hair, which is scary looking. Such a good descriptor. And also the really thick like 80s, 80s aviator glasses, not sunglasses, but just glasses, the pervert glasses, but not transition lenses. Interestingly enough. All right.

Excuse me. So anyway, when he, so he went to college, he got his degree and shit. Where'd it go? I don't have that here. He got his degree in, in physics, I think or something like that. Then he went to graduate school and he got his degree in electronic engineering management or something like that. His first job out of graduate school was at Delco electronics in Kokomo, Indiana.

And he left there relatively soon after because he, there was an investigation made by the company into missing materials that they thought he had stolen. Excuse me. So just right away, a lot of, a lot of question marks about this guy. So then he moves to Fairfax County, Virginia, in the mid seventies. That's where his mother lived and he gets remarried. He was got married in college and that, that marriage ended relatively quickly. So mid seventies, he gets remarried and he works for several high tech firms in the DC

area, including TRW, ICA and logic on process. I don't know what to name those fucking things. I mean, how could we ever? So about this time when he's working at these companies, several teenage girls in the area disappeared now in Fairfax, Virginia, a 25 year old woman named Deborah Fitz John went missing and her remains were later found in a remote area by a hunter. She was last seen in Crutchley's mobile home. Oh dear.

And I don't understand if he's like an engineer at these high end companies, why is he living in a mobile home park? Maybe it's a fucking the Lexus of mobile homes. Oh, true. True, true. From 1979 through 1983, Crutchley worked for a Washington based defense contractor and had access to Norfolk Naval Air stations. And during that time, a 23 year old Navy messenger named Pamela Ann Kimbrew disappeared

from the base on March 25th, 1982. She was later found dead in a car submerged at the end of a seaplane ramp. Her killer tied her arms behind her with clothesline and then tried to strangle her. There was a green ski mask and fingerprints that didn't belong to her or her boyfriend in the car. And then a 21 year old Navy clerk named Carol Ann Maulner disappeared February 6, 1983. Her decomposed body was found three months later, partially buried under rocks of a seawall at the Norfolk base, and she had been strangled.

So there's all these cold cases around the areas where he lives. That's so many and I've never heard of him. Yeah, I know. Well, maybe because of this. So when the cops go back in for a second, they get a second search warrant and they go in to seize all that stuff that they had seen on the first time around. That stack of credit cards is gone and that pile of women's jewelry is gone. They can't find it.

No, that's, but they should have taken it. And then the tapes are, they can't find any tapes that have stuff on it. Right. So, because I think the first time around, they're just like, I, who knows. Like a search warrant isn't the same as like a search and seizures. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe.

There's got to be. Yeah. Answers. But it, but they were, I think it's that thing of they're taking pictures of it. They know you have it. Right. But then it's gone anyway and it's that kind of like, well, you didn't catch me with it.

So there's nothing you can do. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, they were unable to find any hard evidence that tied him to any of those cold cases that I just talked about. But he was brought up on charges of kidnapping rape, grievous bodily harm for the exsanguination and drug possession. And he got those last two charges of plea bargain down in exchange for agreeing to plead

guilty to kidnapping and rape. So they basically cut out the fact that he drained and drank her blood and the drugs he gave her so that he would just plead guilty and like they could move it along. And in court, the defense tried to present him as only being guilty of having kinky sexual tastes and an interest in bonded. Yeah. They referred to the 19 year old victim as a Manson girl who was in fact soliciting him for kinky sex when they met, how did I know that would happen that she was into kinky

sex and she wanted it this way? Like how could they know that? No. How did I know that that was going to be that's how they were going to turn it around? Yeah. Because that's kind of standard fair where it's it's almost like the most offensive thing that could happen is the way they blow it up so that now you're thinking about that instead, like the idea that they call her a Manson girl, yeah, where it's like, it's

1980 fucking five, like she's not a Manson girl, this isn't the this summer of love is long, long over and whether or not she's a sex worker, um, pretty sure that if she agreed to get into someone's car, having her blood drained out of her body and being held and repeatedly raped was in no way. And like you and I could be called like serial killer girls because we're into like, you know, so maybe she's fascinated by my Manson and reads about him, but that doesn't mean she's like supports him. Like I read about World War Two, but it doesn't mean I'm into Hitler.

Yeah, but I don't even think I think they were just using it as a way to label her. You know what I mean? Um, just to say she's basically throw away, right? Just a different way to say she's trash, which is the bullshit part. Um, here's a bigger bullshit part. Crutchley's wife testified. I was wondering where she was and well, here she is. And here's what she had to say.

She says this crime is nothing more than S and M that got out of hand. Um, and they ended up bringing in he'd stacks of three by five cards of different women's names and the S and M and bondage, like sex play that they liked to engage in because he was apparently did it all the time. And many of the people who had been sexual partners with him were testified that they got into it because they were into S and M and then he would not respond to the safe word and he ended up, he would end up raping them or attacking them in a way, but they felt like they couldn't do anything about it because it started out consensual and then

turned to rape and there was nothing they could do. So they, you know, that's kind of an amazing thing is like that to be in a world like that where it is actually all about this kind of a consensual, the consensual agreement and the like it's an act of faith almost. And then the only thing they can do is that when it turns out he's a serial killer vampire, they can be like, that happened to me too. I didn't go to the cops or I did go to the cops and they were like, wait, so. So you answered this personal line or whatever.

Yeah. It's like, if you're a drug dealer and you get robbed, you're not going to go to the cops and be like, I was stealing drugs and I got robbed. Yeah. That's right. Not that that's the same. Anyway. Yeah.

Anyway. So the wife comes out, she says that and then she in reference to this 19 year old girl being tied down to a kitchen counter raped and having her blood drained. The wife says that this had been a quote, gentle rape, devoid of any overt brutality. She wasn't fucking there. And that's what she is testifying in court. What is a gentle rape? It's insanity is what it is.

Also after the trial, the same wife told reporters that she couldn't quite understand what the fuss was since her husband was just quote, a kinky sort of guy, dad, honey. So here's the good part. Okay. The sentence him based on Robert Russell's testimony at the sentencing hearing where he says this is absolutely an organized serial killer. We just haven't found the bodies. We're like coming in on the back end of his run and, you know, and basically in all the

profiling that he gave, the judge in this case chose to exceed the state guidelines on rape and kidnap charges and sentence John Crutchley to 25 years in life to life in prison with 50 years subsequent parole. Fuck yeah, do you did? And then Robert wrestler calls this after the after the sentencing is over and he goes to jail. Robert wrestlers like, yeah, he's going to get out early on good behavior. That's how this goes.

And that's exactly what happened. He served 11 years 11. What does 25 to life mean? It well, if you're a good behavior, right? If you don't, if you don't kill anyone in prison. So he serves 11 years, he gets out in August of 1996 on good behavior, but the, the state, the city officials of Malabar and both Malabar and Fairfax, Virginia are like, you're absolutely not coming here.

You can't, you can't live here and you can't come here. So he has to go, they put him in a halfway house in Orlando where he has to then live, serve out his 50 years parole and begin to pay the restitution that he owes. And while the day after he's released from prison, I hope this is what I think it is. He tests positive for marijuana and is arrested. It's not what I thought it was going to be. No, but that's great. We're close.

And because it's his third strike, the first being kidnapping and the second being rape. Pot is his third strike. He goes back to jail for life. Shut your fucking mouth. So what I think happened is like the cops knew, especially because of Robert wrestler, they are just like, this guy's going to slip through the cracks because rape isn't that big of a deal to our legal system. And so they just stayed on him.

They tested him. The pot that was in his system was from a party they threw him before he left jail. So he had smoked pot in jail. What? Oh, so, but I wonder if like, are you on parole yet in jail though? No, but you're, you're, if it's still in your system when you're on parole on day one, you test, you test positive for marijuana doesn't matter when it got into your system. Wow.

You're not allowed to have it in your system. I didn't know that. You shouldn't have had it at your party in jail, dude. So he goes back, he goes back third strike. He's in jail for life. And then in March of 2002, he's found dead in his cell with a plastic bag over his head and he died of asphyxiation. Wow.

But we don't know if it's suicide or not. But of note, and I think this is also, this is a fascinating part where I wish I was better at research, I wish I take, I took more time and I wish there was like, I didn't really find that many, um, that many articles about this in particular, but I would love to know when he was arrested, he was found to be in possession of a great deal of highly classified information about naval weaponry and communications, unnamed federal agencies other than the FBI considered opening an espionage case against him and his employer Harris Corporation was involved not only with NASA research, um, and launch facilities at Cape

Canaveral, but also with other naval contractors and subcontractors. So he was stealing information and that's why he got fired initially and sharing it with fucking the Russians. They don't know. Probably. You just rewrote that ending. Well, I mean, I mean, what it is, is we know that he is a thief aside from all these other ways that he's a criminal.

He has no problem stealing shit from these. I mean, and he is, he was a very, very intelligent and very successful like computer engineer. Engineers are not stupid people. No. Over across the board. No. So that's why they were, you know, wrestlers saying there's many bodies that are his responsibility that we just haven't found because he's so organized and he's been doing this so long.

And his back then when you moved around a lot, there was no way to trace anybody or anything. Also, in 1989, Crutchley's former lawyer stated that he that Crutchley was prepared to confess to at least three murders and lead police to the burial sites, but that negotiations between Crutchley and the prosecutors fell through. So you just didn't do it. What happened? It was like he wanted too much or I don't know. That's another thing that's fascinating.

Yeah. Yeah. So they think, I think that the thing on murder pedia has victims like 0 to 30 plus in terms of murder victims. They just, they, they could associate him in all these places that he's lived with girls just disappearing, but they don't know for sure. Dude. And even if it's like, okay, a few of them were murdered by someone else, that's still

an insane amount. It's not going to be half. It's going to be at least, you know, yeah, shit, dude. So say his name again, John Crutchley, the vampire rapist. Okay. Yeah. I had never heard of that one. Isn't that nuts?

Yeah. Yeah. This is a great one. I thought he was going to get stabbed to death in prison. That's what I thought was going to happen. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Maybe he, maybe he immediately, like when he was in high school, used to fix people's

stereos for money. Oh, no. Yeah. He, like, just was one of those people that used all of his, like, his abilities for other people. Yeah. Well, I can't imagine prison inmates throw just everyone a goodbye party with pot. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Like, that's not for the guy. Like, not everyone gets a cake and weed. Yeah. For their goodbye. Yes. He claimed that they blew the pot in his face. Uh-huh.

It was not his fault. Yeah. My cat says that too. Um, I remember knowing people who did that to their pets. Yeah. It's the creepiest thing of all time. I'm horrible. What's wrong with that?

No, he likes it. Today, I have a present for you. You do? It's an angel of death. Nice. Yeah. So I've been, I've been looking up the specific angel of death for a couple weeks now, like, on and off if I want to do him and it's just kind of, uh, um, so yesterday I was at, um,

like a little memorial day gathering and someone brought this one up that I'd never heard of and it's in the news like today and I, and so I looked it up and I'm like, this is perfect. Okay. Um, so this is Janine Jones. Do you know her? I don't know. She's the angel of death. So Janine, which everyone, I don't know if everyone knows this is a nurse or doctor or

some kind of medical professional who kills their patients. Yeah. So Janine Jones was born July 13th, 1950. She grew up in Northwest San Antonio. Uh, she was adopted by a nightclub owner and he owned the Kit Kat Swim Club, which like you know is the best place to be. Swim club? I don't know.

Yeah. A nighttime swimming club? I don't know if there's anything to even do with swimming. Please. I want to go to this club. There's a pool in the middle. Who knows? Yes.

Let's open it. Yeah. Night swimming. Lights off. Oh my God. Beyond shit. You know, it's so creepy. What?

We just fucking ate a Kit Kat. No. It's really true. Joke. Such a delicious Kit Kat. What are the chances? From the Seattle show if you gave it to us there. No.

Oh, and they were Canadian, but they knew you love Canadian Kit Kat so they got your name. Which are legit better. So much better. Okay. So he, her father managed the club and her adopted mother Gladys spun records at the turn table, so they sound like a fucking fun time, awesome couple. Was this in the 70s?

This was in probably 50s, 60s, so somewhere around that doesn't say. Her mom's the DJ and her dad's the club owner. Yeah. And so like, oh, I think it's as a kid. So it was probably in the 60s. Like they sound fucking dits. Yeah. Why aren't you cool?

They adopt four kids. They sound awesome. One of the brothers died of cancer and another was killed by the explosion of a bomb he had made when they were young. Oh no. Yeah. So Janine worked as a beautician and then she attended nursing school in the late 70s. She was super smart.

She scored more than 200 points above the passing grade on her licensing exam, on her nursing exam. Shit. And so after school she'd be on working as a licensed vocational nurse at Bexar County Hospital in San Antonio, which a licensed nurse is like not an RN, right? It's, I think it's a step below. Yeah. But I could be wrong.

No, you're right. Because they kept talking about that. So I think you're correct. Yeah. RN is like the thing. My mom was an RN. So she was real judgy about medical assistance and stuff like that. Yeah.

Or she would get very offended when people only had medical assistance and non-nurse. Right. Or if they assumed she wasn't an RN. Right. So very few people ever did that though. Yeah. She had a real RN feel about it. Yeah.

Well, I think this chick did too because a lot of people thought she was, but she was put in the eight bed pediatric intensive care unit and the RNs basically said they were babysitters, which is like, and she was just like, fuck that. She knew a lot about anatomy and all these smart things. So Bexar County would send its critically ill children there when they couldn't afford a private hospital. So they basically didn't have insurance and they were like, you're off to this place. Oh no.

Yeah. Which is just like, let's talk about healthcare, man. Let's talk about it for three hours. Let's get into it right now. Let's solve it. Yeah. So Janine worked a three to 11 PM shift. And when baby started dying on her shift regularly, the other nurses she worked with

started calling it the death shift. Oh shit. And the other nurses were like, what's up supervisors? There's something going on, but they didn't want to believe, the supervisors didn't want to believe that the seemingly super dedicated nurse was hurting her patients. So they didn't even look into it. But then during. Yeah.

It's just like, I just don't want it to be this way. Yeah. She's really in charge. She can't be. Yeah. So then eventually during a 15 month period in 1981 and 82, 40, okay, wait, no, not yet. So during a 15 month period in 81 and 82, 42 children died while undergoing treatment in the pediatric unit.

34 of those patients died during the three to 11 PM shift. Oh my God. And the patient, like these are critically ill infants. And like, yeah, children. And she had directly cared for 20 of those children. So the patients experienced uncontrollable bleeding, seizures and breathing problems that were correlated to her. So in early December of 81, an infant named Josh Sawyer, Joshua Sawyer, goes to the pediatric

ICU after a fire destroyed his family's home. So he's an infant. He was suffering from smoke inhalation. And he's suffering seizures and cardiac arrest when he gets there. He's treated with the Dilan Dilanthin Dilanthin. That's my medicine. That's a seizure medication. Right.

Oh my God. I was legitimately excited to hear my, I was, that sounded sarcastic, but I was like, Oh my God. No, that's no, I'm excited for you. That's fine. Thank you. Me too. Do you also take phenobarbital phenobarbital?

No. Okay. It's not like, okay. That's old kind of. Yeah. Mine's a little bit old too. They want me to not take it anymore. But it's the only thing that controls my seizures.

Hmm. Whenever it changes like, like when you change ages and you get used, you know, probably the brain is such a mystery, but it can't be fun to be like, let's try this one now. The same way the antidepressants, it's like, no, please don't put me on a new one. I know it's going to be months of fucking trial and error. Yeah. And mine, my trial and error was I would have half seizures and spin in a circle, like a dog that was about to take a nap.

Karen. I did it on stage a couple of times. Yeah. And you had to lay down, right? Yeah. Because I would just be turning in like looking, I would, it was like I was needed to look over my shoulder. Oh my God.

I mean, they want to cry for you. For like 15 seconds. Oh my God. It's fucking insane. For a baby. I've been through them now. You really haven't. That's, that makes me so sad for you.

I love that I am, in no matter what the scenario, we could be talking about children being murdered, I can still make it about me. And that's what this podcast is, isn't it? My favorite making it about me moment. My favorite me eater. Oh no. Sorry. No, that's good.

Anyways, back to this infant. So he's on Dylanton and Fina Barberdahl. And by his fourth day at the ICU, the seizures had stopped and he was breathing on his own. But his mother Connie Weeks at the urging of a friend, so she'd been bedside this whole fucking time freaking out after her entire house burned down and she was having a fucking seizure. No, panic attack, baby. Friend is like, get out of here.

She goes home to take a shower, change her clothes, like be normal. And also goes to see a movie, which is like, they want her to be extracted. Yes. And relax. Right. Which seems hard. I mean, so in the theater watching the movie, the usher finds her and is like, they meet you at the hospital immediately.

Because when she left, she was like, probably stable. Right. Jesus, man. So Joshua's heart had begun racing a few hours after Janine took over his care that day. Doctors were unable to help him. And he died the following day after suffering two more cardiac arrests. She was also on duty at the time, wait, she was on duty again, so like the next day at the time of the death as well.

And blood tests done between his cardiac episodes that are overlooked showed more than three times the therapeutic level of Dylantin in his system. Three times. So the hospital started private searches finally to determine if Jean, which I think she was called Jean also, was killing patients. So between May and December of 81, the last of the hospital's internal inquiries found 10 children in the ICU had died after, quote, sudden and unexplained complications. In all 10 cases, Janine Jones was present at the child's bedside during what the report

gently terms the final events. So instead of, okay, but the hospital was in the middle of a public relations campaign designed to make over its image. And so it didn't tell the police of the findings, which were that and here are the findings. Children were 25.5 times more likely to suffer a medical emergency and 10.7 times more likely to die during her shift. Fuck. Yeah.

Tell somebody. Dude. Alert the fucking media. Actually, I feel like the media is a great place to turn when no one will fucking listen to you. For sure. You know. Especially independently.

Right. Owned a rolling stone, if you will, I don't know if that's, that's the end of Firestarter. When they, they're like running, running, running from the government and the black ops and the, you know, men in black and all that. And they finally, like the dad is killed. Anyone? I haven't seen it. So I read it.

I read it when I was like 13. Yeah. I was obsessed. Yeah. It gave me nightmares when I read it. And I was like, probably the same age as you. But at the very end, like they put the story of all of it into an envelope and drop it off at Rolling Stone.

That's the way to do it. It made me so excited. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, that's when I was watching the keepers. I was like, you know, they start talking to a journalist and it's like, no one will listen to you. Bring all your evidence to like some badass investigative journalist.

How about that fucking journalist? By the way, I love that man so much from the keepers. He is a genius. They are so important. Yeah. They're amazing. And there's a resurgence of them now that we all realize that journalism is very important. Oops.

We need them. Yes. Badly. So instead of letting everyone know in March of 82, they're all like, all right, you know, what we're going to do instead of telling anyone about Janine, we're going to take all of those nurses that are on the ICU and upgrade them to nursing staff so they all get the fuck out of there. All right.

They take all of them. They say they're upgrading to nursing staffs to only be registered nurses in that section and they kick all of them out. Okay. So all the nurses who were there get kicked the fuck out. They offered them jobs in other parts of it, but this is the way to just not fire her. And all of those nurses, including Janine, were given good recommendations, even though proof that it was her.

Well, they went through this whole thing and I think they did, but they were just like didn't want to have a PR thing. This is very much how the Catholic Church would have acted. Yeah. Right. Just move them around and move them around. Yes. Put them somewhere that are not around children anymore.

Yeah. It's somebody else's problem now. Yeah. Okay. And in her recommendation letter, she was described as loyal, dependable and trustworthy. Yeah. Yeah. So five months later, she takes a job with a pediatrician, Dr. Kathleen Holland in Kerville,

Kerville probably. Kerville. How's this spelled? K-E-R-R-V-I-L-L-E. Kerville. Yeah. This is the part in the live shows where they would start screaming at us, all of us, and we wouldn't understand a single fucking word.

It's Coco! So in a period of 31 days as she's working there, seven patients in eight separate medical emergencies had to be taken to the hospital. In a month? Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Because here's the thing.

It's such an obsession for her, I'm assuming. She knows, like, this is a way smaller playing field. It'll be so much more obvious. Yeah. She does it anyway. She can't not do it. Yeah. It's so crazy.

Well, you know, is it the thing of, like, what is the thing? Does she want to look like a hero? Does she have... Yeah. She wants to save the day. Yes. And that's kind of the reason they do that. Yeah.

Most people do that, right? I believe that's what it is. Yeah. It's like, it's a... Right? It's that... They were naming some things. It's that, it's putting them...

Quote, putting them out of their misery when it's, like, older people, which isn't true because this other dude I was looking up just killed, like, people who came in for, like, a broken arm or some shit. Yeah, I don't believe the putting in the misery because I did that British doctor, I can't remember, but he did the same thing, and it was people who were not in misery. Right. There was nothing wrong with them. Yeah.

He was just, like, killing people. Yeah. And actually, you brought up misery and Firestarter, that's weird. It's said that this one, Janine, is one of the, um, what Stephen King wrote misery when he wrote Annie Bates? No. Kathy Bates is the actress. Kathy.

Annie, I can't remember the character. That's one of my favorite movies. It's so good. You need to watch it. It's so horrifying. It's... She's the scariest fucking thing in the world. Did she win an Emmy?

Oscar? Whatever. She should have won both, man. She should have swapped. She should have gotten it. Tonys? What is it called? The, uh, glad awards?

No, what's... Not... I didn't mean... You know what I mean? Listen. The Tonys. Yeah, but what's it called in 30 Rock when you win all of them? EGOT.

Yeah. The EGOT. In 30 Rock. Well, this is like... Bitch, get your shit together. Um... Okay. Okay.

It takes a job, 31 days, seven patients. The doctor in the office then discovered puncture marks in a bottle of... There we go. Psychin... Psychinocl... Chlorine. Psychinoclorine. It's...

It's... In the drug storage where only she and Jones had access and contents of the apparently full bottle, supposed to be full, later found to be diluted. So basically she's a teenager taking the vodka bottle and fucking out of the freezer. Is this you? Yeah, yeah. There's some story of like that I... Some roommate was like...

Some girl at a roommate took her vodka bottle, it fell out of the fridge and broke. No, no, no. The vodka was frozen, which it doesn't do, which means it was all water at that point. There it is. Something ridiculous. Yeah. That's the best. Yeah.

So basically she's a monster. So this drug, which I refuse to say again, is a powerful paralytic that causes temporary paralysis of all skeletal muscles as well as those that control breathing. So a patient can't breathe while under the influence and small children cardiac arrest is the ultimate result due to lack of respiration. One of those children at this location was Chelsea McClelland. She died on September 17th, 1982. She was a 15-month-old.

She went into respiratory failure after Jones injected her with supposed to be routine immunizations. So you go in to get cholera, whatever the fuck they immune you for, and she fucking dies. Yeah. The powerful... It's usually used as general anesthesia for surgical patients. So she's charged with Chelsea's murder, but the prosecutors decided not to file charges against her in the death of any of the children she was suspected of killing because they

thought that the 99-year sentence that she got, she was found guilty 99-year sentence, plus she also got a 60-year sentence for giving a four-week-old Rolando Santos a large dose of the blood thinner heparin, but he survived. But she got another 60 years in 1984, and they were like, well, she'll never get out, so we don't really need to prosecute her for anymore. People. She'll be in jail for the rest of her life, right? Yeah.

Nope. No. No. All right. So today's what? The 30th we decided? Today is the 30th. Okay.

That's the truth. So on... Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess, you know what I mean? We decide now. Yeah. We decide. Oh, we didn't tell you?

On May 25th of 2018, so a year from basically a couple days ago, she's 66 years old. She's supposed to be eligible. She's been eligible for parole since 89, but is repeatedly denied because she's a monster, but she was set to be released from prison after serving one-third of her sentence so in a year. Wow. Yeah. Yes.

Here we go again with good behavior. Texas created a law called the good time law, which is not a good time, probably through the victims, which was created to combat prison overcrowding, allows inmates convicted of a violent of violent crimes between 77 and 87 to be released if they have a record of good behavior. Like let the dude who got caught with some pot know. Yeah. That's just it.

You know. It's that's just it. You had meth in your pocket that you were using. It wasn't enough to sell. Who let him out? Yeah. Who cares? Right.

Compared to the people who clearly have a mental illness compulsion to what do you exact bodily harm on their fellow man who have no empathetic tendencies whatsoever who if you're I'm sorry, but if you're over the age of 21 and you commit murder, you know, you've thought this through in some point at some, you know, you're not going to the rehab thing is so hard to think when it's people who have murdered systematically murdered people in cold blood and systematically murdered infants think about you were in charge of your nurse. It's part of your, I don't know if nurses taken oath or I bet they do though. It's part of it.

It's part of going, I'm a medical worker. I'm going to act like I'm going to stand in family member watching your child while your child is at the most vulnerable point it could possibly be. It's almost, yeah, it should be worse when you agree or you are supposed to be taking care of someone or making them live. Yeah. Yeah. Because the thing is, we know she's been in jail say for 30 years, whatever it is, she

gets out of jail. That thing that she has, has in probably no way been addressed of I need to be, it's just her life is dedicated to making just like serial killers, they kill. That's what they do. They have to do it. And then it's that you have to be a charming manipulator to get away with this thing for so long that I don't care how much therapy you've had in prison. You're a charming manipulator.

You're not going to fucking exercise that out of someone. Right. You're not good of a therapist. You are. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't care. And I don't care.

Maybe you're better. Maybe you're not like that anymore. You fucking still have to pay for the crime you committed. Yeah. I don't care if you're fucking saint. Well, and also it's the thing of trying to get things because there's so much backlog in the system. They're just trying to get things moved through.

But it's like, you know, and hopefully this when like they come upon this for like the parole board or whatever, that's taken into consideration. This isn't a person that just like accidentally hit somebody with her car or intentionally hit somebody with her car in a crime of passion. Well, it's a person who systematically murdered babies. It's also that thing of like, uh, yeah, so the parole board said no because they looked at the evidence and realized time and time again that she shouldn't be out. What is the point of our judicial system who gave her 99 years for this horrible crime

if you're just going to override it, yeah, you know, like it makes people not as scared to commit crimes because it's listen, hey, listen, listen, listen, listen, look, here we go. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, okay. So good behavior because of because of this Brexar Brexar County prosecutors were like, how fucking now a couple of years ago, I think they found out about this, they launched a secret investigation into her time as a nurse and when they realized that she's going to be released, they believe that she may, they estimate that she may have killed as

many as 40 to 60, oh fuck, suspicious deaths under her watch. She killed your grammar school class of children at 63 kids in my class. Okay, so, okay, I thought you meant in your, not in your own class, but like in multiple classes. No, no, no, in like grammar school, yeah, I'm just thinking like our sixth grade class had 63 kids. Yeah. It would be as if she went through and systematically secretly poisoned every single one of them.

Jesus Christ. As babies. As babies. I'm trying to put out there, I'm trying to put a metaphor out there that only I can relate to. No, that's a good one because I wouldn't have known what to do, like what to say, like they killed the amount of people who were at the pool yesterday. Like no, but that doesn't make any sense.

Right, right, right. You're just better. Yeah. Okay, so on, so on May 25th, a couple fucking days ago, so 2017, Brexar County District's Attorney's Office announced that she had been charged in the 81 death of 11 month old Joshua Sawyer, the kid who got killed because his house burned down. So they went back to that poor kid and charged, she, they charged her. So I think they, she's just going straight to the other county.

They're just basically transferring her to another prison and she's not getting out. So she would have gotten out and she won't. So district attorney, Sam D. Millsap, Jr. Oh, Ronnie's nephew. What is that? Well, it's a deep cut for all the middle-aged people. Ronnie Millsap is a country singer. Nope.

Oh, you told me about him. No, I haven't. Who's the guy that you told me about who was in Mickey Ghillie? Yeah. Who was in the show. We like, oh, Fargo. Mac Davis. Okay.

That's Mac Davis. But actually same school. Okay. Same like class. Got it. Someone, some middle-aged is losing his mind right now that you said that. Perhaps Ronnie Millsap himself. Oh my God.

Maybe Ronnie Millsap was blind. That's something we could look up. But why? I mean, why don't we, we're, we're not worried about facts right now. This isn't a fucking country music podcast. Okay. Sorry. Start your own podcast about country music if you really want to know their stuff.

God damn interested in his life. So he, this dude, Millsap Jr., he's six months into an investigation of the county, Bexar County Hospital, which is now called, nope, okay, which is now called University Hospital of San Antonio. And everyone's like, I went there. So they changed their fucking name. Yeah. So he is looking into why no one stopped all of these.

So like holding them accountable. Oh yes. Thank God. Yes. Oh, that's a bad one. He says he's focusing his criminal investigation not only on Janine, but also on the hospital for its inactions. So Josh Sawyer's death, a sweet kid, one of the reasons they're able to prosecute it

now and why they have such strong evidence is because Joshua's mother kept her son's medical records for more than three decades. And she said, it's all I had left of Joshua. She said everything else was destroyed in the fire. Oh no, I'm crying. Are you crying? I don't know why that gets me so bad. It's so sad.

It's so goddamn sad. She walks away from that hospital with nothing. And so she keeps these records and they probably didn't have them anymore. You know how those records things go. Exactly right. So it's just that fucking hospital put their own image above human life, which is the opposite reason to have a hospital. And it's somehow so much worse that it was children, children.

It's almost worse. I mean, no one is better than the next, but it's so heartless. It's well, they just have no, they couldn't even fight. It's not like somebody, they could go, what are you, why are you putting that needle in my arm or anything? It's just like. I don't see it. They can't even say, I don't feel well.

Something, you know, it's this thing of, yeah, it could have been stopped at any time had anyone taken the time to do their job, which is to protect the patients, not the hospital. It's like the people who could have investigated what was going on there who worked there. It wasn't, they didn't own the hospital. Right. It's not like they needed to worry about the image of the hospital. Right. And also, I mean, it's a fucking hospital.

It's not like you just started a PR company. Yeah. They're trying to go to the hospital. They have to. Yeah. You fell off a ladder. You have a, you have a blade of, you know, a knife in your arm, whatever it is. It's not like you're like, oh, don't go to that hospital.

Well, I did. They had some issues. I went to Hollywood Presbyterian because I needed help immediately in that place. I don't want to talk shit out of school and on a podcast, but that's what you're doing. That's what I'm doing. All I'm going to say is don't go there. Bad news? Very.

Is that the one that's on Western? Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, Vermont, Vermont. On Vermont. Yeah. Down by the Wendy's, right? Yeah.

Across from the Wendy's. Yeah. Wow. That everything is done. Shut up, Steven. That's what, that's how I measure all things. Wendy. The closest Wendy's.

Yes. That's the closest one. But I knew immediately. Yes. Yes. Do you do that too? Well, I've been there. I mean, there's nothing worse when you're in like, when you're in a bad spot.

And it's so weird because having a nurse mom growing up when we would have to go was like, my mom worked for Kaiser, so we'd just always go to a Kaiser. Yeah. Like the, the, we never didn't have insurance. We never didn't have coverage. Definitely. All of that stuff. And my mom used to harp on me when I didn't have insurance after they took me and my sister

off there. Right. Like your adults get your own. And I didn't, of course. And then she'd be like, you have to get insurance. Yeah. And I'd just be like, what for? Why?

Well, then when I had my seizures, I didn't have insurance. And I went to Harbor UCLA in Torrance and it was horrifying when you, you don't want to go to a county hospital without your insurance. Well, look, and listen, they're in poor, they're poor neighborhoods. That Hollywood, you know, Western and fucking fountain is not the center of Beverly Hills. And all the bad shit that happens in that neighborhood, people just get dumped at this hospital. It's not that they're bad people.

It's the people that work there aren't talented. It's that they're the ones that are like almost like it's frontline style or they're just seeing tons of stuff all the time. It's rough. Listen, Burbank, Urgent Care, shout out. Hey. Um, so that's the story of Janine Jones. She's the angel of death.

Wow. And thank God they fucking swooped right in, right in time and kept her off the streets because you know, like, yeah, they'd be like, you can't be near children, but that shit falls through the cracks. So then she just is going to do some, she's going to like start, this is my theory, but she would then start driving for meals on wheels and suddenly people, you know what I mean? She would, she doesn't need a hospital to poison people to death.

Oh my God. She would just go do it some other way because it's a compulsion that hasn't been addressed, I'm sure, or fixed in her in any way. I wonder where it came from because it feels like there's like, maybe it's her brother's dying. Maybe it's when she's little. I mean, there has to be, and she was married and had two children. Yeah.

You're about to mention that. Like, so she had babies at one point. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Something happened like in her life because aside from a mental illness, obviously, when it's, I've read a lot more about, less about angels of death because they just, I find that they're so straightforward that it's like, oh.

Yeah. That's why the other one I was just like, I don't know if I can do that. It's just kind of, it's just plain sad. But it's interesting because it's very similar to the munchasas by proxy where, and that's the real one where oftentimes it's mothers poisoning their children and they get so much out of doctors and staff members and everybody worrying about them, pitting them. They become the focus of the attention. Important people.

Yeah. Well, the thing too is that she was saying that her first, the first patient she ever had to ICU was an infant who died on her watch and it broke her heart, but I wonder either she killed that infant or the attention she got when that happened, having been this child's nurse at the time was so fulfilling that she couldn't stop because maybe she had just been a perfectionist before that or maybe she had just, it's that thing of how some people love having the approval of people who above them, so like the doctors and RNs were like commending her for how she dealt with it.

And comforting her. Comforting her. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fascinating. Have you seen that horrible video in a, they put a video camera hidden in, no, don't wanna can't. Well, say the word slowly.

No. I can stop you. I'm not gonna say it. What is it? The kid survives. The kid survives. Is it a babysitter that abuses the child? No.

It's a father. Does that one I can still see in my head and it's so horrible. Me too. I can't watch those. Yeah. No, a father. I can't see a video camera in there because they knew something was going on. In the hospital?

In the hospital room where the little girl was sick. He puts his body on top of hers and tries to like stop her from breathing and a nurse rushes in and catches him and he gets arrested. Cause he had muntasins? Yeah. He was making her sick. He's trying to smother her? Yeah.

Holy shit. I'm sorry. Are you crying? No, no. No. Why not? I can't. I do have no.

But the idea of that the only thing you have left of your child is medical records is just like. I know. Oh god. But how triumphant for her? Well think fucking God. Yeah. Cause then it's, yeah.

Oh my god. Yeah. Half those podcasts we listen to that are like investigative reporting is them trying to get whatever basic medical records or crime records, what are they called? Yeah. Yeah. That they can't, that no one will give them. That's all of the keepers is them going, I'm sorry, how do you not have these records

anymore? They don't exist anymore. There's a lot of floods in basements of police stations. So much flooding. There's a flooding is a, what's it called? It's a common problem. Yeah. Or it's an epidemic.

Yes. Anyways. Well, it's been. Well, that was great. That's been two hours of my favorite murder. Wow. Really? I don't know.

Oh yeah. So because that was horrible. And actually I did not think this through of what my thing was from this week. Yeah. You go first. No. I do. And I didn't think it through.

Totally didn't. Okay. I met my friend's brand new baby yesterday. I swear to God, I didn't do that on purpose and for a minute I thought I had done a different murder. I was doing a different murder. Oh my God. I know.

Was it Kurt's baby? Yeah. Yeah. Kurt and Lauren. I didn't go because I was sick. Oh. I would have harassed you during coming. I mean, I don't want to be a brawned baby and have this like disgusting coffin.

Oh, you should have copped on the babies. So I went to my friend Kurt and Lauren's house yesterday. They have the wedlock podcast in Audible. It's great. Everyone listen. And this baby, it's like two months old and it's so weird to see your friend's face in a baby and I kind of, and the baby is laughing with me and this baby is so chill and sweet and has these like dark gray blue eyes.

I mean, she's darling, her name's Olive and I was for a moment like, I want a piece. So I turned events and I said, a dog or a baby pick one. So I think we're going to get a dog. That's exactly the way you should make decisions like that. Oh yeah. Nice. Ultimatums. Yeah.

You can get a dog with blue eyes. I can get a baby dog. Yeah. That's right. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. What's yours? I can't wait to see that baby.

Oh, cutie. We did mention it. I guess I will say this. We did mention it very briefly on the mini-sode that you and I went to a therapy session together and I had to say it just made me, first of all, it made me so happy because we both know how to be in therapy. So we got to, we cut to the chase really fast of just like, this is what we need. We have to like, whatever.

But it made me feel so fucking mature and like, like, we're not, it's not like there's a problem we have, we're trying to prevent a problem because we are in a very, we're in rare air. No, we can't go to anybody that go and go, hey, have you ever gone through this before because no one that I know has in this specific way. And we basically, of course we have Steven, but we just have each other. Well, we've argued in front of Steven before, sweetly with his face pretending to write tech in the, where we just, it's just this, it was, it just felt like such a, like we

were just getting at the problem without being, we were just like, let's solve this. And we both are self-aware enough to know that we have fucking issues that make us hard. Both of us hard. I know makes me a hard person to deal with. Same here. And I am aware of that and totally okay with that. And I want nothing more than to be a better person and improve myself. So instead of it feeling like, oh, we had to go to therapy, it felt like now we're going

to do this really smart thing, like hand in hand to help, to make sure that we don't wreck. Because my thing is just like, there's been so many things where I've just been like, fuck this and walked away because it was too, I couldn't communicate with the person. It was too hard. It was too infuriating. And I've done it. I've done it. And I haven't walked away and I have serious issues from that.

And I don't want to go through that again, older and wiser. And the thing that I really love about both of us is that I could say and you could say, we should go to therapy and it wasn't an insult and it wasn't cutting you down or cutting me down. It was just, and it's the same thing with couples. It's couples relationship therapy, which is like, let's do this before it gets fucking horrible and we have to backtrack for years. Because you, it's just such a fascinating thing.

First of all, I'm deeply in love with our therapist. Oh my God. He's amazing. That soap opera star came to be our therapist. Like he's beautiful and then he would just go like, we'd start talking and I could hear us telling the story that we told it to each other, the way like here's how this story goes and he goes, I'm going to stop you for a second. And then instead of talking about the plot line, we would have to talk about the feelings

that the actions brought up, which is what I hate and what I always get called on in therapy. The actions don't matter. Exactly. Right. It's what you were feeling when you were doing them. And it's what it brings out in you. It's making you share yours, so you are understanding your feelings, but what he's really doing

is making you explain them to me and me explaining them to you, which totally helps. So there was like genuine revelations where I was like, oh shit, like we would have never talked about this while we were having a fight about this other thing where it's like, I just appreciate it if you do this thing or whatever. And instead what we're just, we're learning our back stories so that we can go, oh, this is that thing she does. And so next time we get into fight, if I do this thing, this is why she's responding to me this way.

And you know what I love, and I hate when they do this is, well, you start telling them you're feeling, tell her, like you're supposed to turn to me and tell me, and I'm like, I don't want to. He didn't make us do that. No, he didn't, which I appreciate. I'm sure he will eventually, but I think he knows right now it's too hard to do that. Well, and also because we kind of were, that was also, I guess the part I loved is you were such a good partner in that way where like when we were talking about this stuff,

at no point was there any shutdown? Was there any? Like we started to be like, well, this is the, this is what, you know, I'm worried about, or this is what I, like this is the bad pattern we're in, and we both brought it together. And both of us were like, oh yeah, I can understand that there, because we've both been in therapy for so long. There's no like, both, and I've been in couples therapy, like, I understand how it's supposed

to work. Right. Which is great. And there's no reason for you to be like, that's not true, because that's, and he said at the end, which we should tell people this, which this fucking changed my thought process so much. I'm going to say it wrong. You say it.

He said, we can stop thinking about these things in terms of true, right or wrong, and start thinking of them in terms of true for Georgia, true for Karen. So what you think is right is just your truth. And it doesn't mean you're right or wrong or wrong. We can just practice moving. There was just things like that. It sounds so like it's not like we were having these huge problems. Yeah.

It's like we would get, we would, everything would be great. And then we'd try to discuss one area. And so we were like, let's fix the area before the area becomes, spreads to the rest of everything else we're doing. It's like getting a bikini wax, preemptive bikini wax. Before it gets down to your knees. Before you have to go to the pool the next day and you're like, why didn't I get a bikini wax?

So you try to do it yourself and your legs are red. Yeah. Ingrown hairs all over the place. Now you've got to get some Russian lady to do it for you. Oh yeah. At Burke Williams. Yeah. Um, guys.

Guys. That was an overshare for sure. No way. There's no such thing. All right. Um, well, thanks for listening. The overshare was the bikini wax for the therapy. No, just, I don't know.

No, nothing. Oh, because it wasn't. I think the bikini wax was an overshare. Oh, okay. But not the. I thought it was a good metaphor. I think so. I support you.

Yeah. Thank you guys for listening. You're all fucking sweet baby angels. Um, thanks for your support. All of it. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Elvis.

You want a cookie? Okay. Bye. Bye. Okay. Okay, I think I heard something here.