My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 72 - Steven It Out

Episode Date: June 8, 2017

This week, Karen and Georgia cover Larry Eyler aka The Highway Killer and The Pillow Pyro of southern California, John Orr.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime, and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook, and listen to True Crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen Kilgarib. That's Georgia Hardstark.

And here we are, looking at Stephen Ray Morris as if to say, Hey, how? What's up? With you. With you. Yeah, and that's what the podcast is all about. Two people trying to talk at the same time. At the same time.

Doing the same thing. The same words. Thing. You can't, I can't. I can't either. The finger does help. Either. We're bad at this podcast.

I'm bad at improv. I'm bad at doing what other people want. We were bad at this podcast because we couldn't say the same things at the exact same time. Yeah, that's what makes you bad at podcasting. In every article, they're like, they're okay, but they can't say the same. We're the same. So, time. Oh, shit.

Time. See? Another, if you listen to episodes, what is the 70, what is this, Stephen? Two? 72. 72. I know. Yeah.

It's Stephen. She, how do you know? How do you know that? Because I'm in the email. I'm the info email. I don't check that. I know. I get overwhelmed.

It's funny how you and I both just get overwhelmed at different things. And so we do the thing that we're not overwhelmed by and the other person just like doesn't fucking pay attention to it. That's right. Like you are, you're the description person and the naming of the podcast person and who gets back on people like, hey, do you want this podcast to be posted? Yeah. And I'm like, no, I can't.

Can't do it. I don't want to be in this. And then you're the merch person. You're the magazine person. What magazine? You get us all the magazine subscriptions that we want. What? Better Homes and Gardens, Sunset, Popular Mechanics.

If that were my job for this podcast, so I would be sad. You would be sad to get magazines? Sure. I got you a copy from four months ago of Psychology Today. It's right here. Thank you. It's from four months ago. I kind of have been sleeping on the job.

That's so nice of you. Well, I guess I'll read it now. Would you? Okay. Let's see. Steven, can you edit this out? Okay. And we're back.

And welcome. Karen, how was Psychology Today? Tell me about it. Oh, I thought you meant we're back starting over. Oh, hell no. We never start over. God, that's a good magazine. Just filled with advice.

It's actually a really fucking good magazine. It's good. You're like, don't be sarcastic about Psychology Today. Even for one moment. Don't talk to me about it. Dear, you talked to my magazine that way. I got my mom a subscription to that one year. I'm being like, listen, can we get your fucking shit together?

How about you read this? Subtle tea. Did she do it? Yeah, she loved it. I don't think she understood. I don't think she is self-aware enough to understand the messaging that it was pointed. Sure.

Although she did text me. We got in a fight like a week ago. And I was pissed off at her and I tweeted something like, the hardest job in the world is raising your mother. Thinking that. Knowing that she doesn't read Twitter. She's not on Twitter. My dad wrote back, you're telling me.

And I was like, you know. Marty. Marty. Marty. But then when we were making up, like a couple days later, she wrote, and I know how hard it is to raise your mother. And I was like, who's the leak? Do you think Marty threw it in her face?

No, I think she saw it. You think she checks me? No. Wow. Shit. Yeah. But I can't imagine she listens to this podcast. Well, if she does, hey, Janet.

Hey, Janet. What's up? Pearl. Hi, best friend. Remember when we partied in Chicago together? We had a good time. Where were we? Chicago.

No, where were we? We were. To Chicago. 2016. It was Christmas. Oh my God. I'm sure we've talked about this on this podcast, but one of my favorite things that's ever happened to me

is the night before our show, we got in. In Chicago. In Chicago, 2016. December, Christmas. Got it, I'm there. My sister, Adrienne and Audrey, the four of us went out. To try to eat something, but it was kind of late at night. So nothing, and it was fucking freezing.

It was like 50 degrees. It was in windy, so everyone shut up from everywhere else. Yeah, that's right. It was also windy. 50, that's nothing. I'm from Alaska. We don't care. No, no, there was wind everywhere.

Listen, I'm on the North Pole. That's nothing. It's a narwhal. When the other guy's like, what a dick. The other narwhal. Come and get a cartoon of a narwhal saying that. And another one going like, what a dick. Shut up, you dick.

Bye, Mr. Narwhal. I'm completely ripping that off from Elf. Okay, but. Oh, I didn't know it. Yeah. State your sources. We go into a Walgreens and we all buy hats. That's how cold it is.

We're California girls. We had no idea our layers weren't going to work. So we start walking, just trying to find anywhere to eat. And we walk, and we walk, and it's freezing. And we're basically fighting the elements. And finally, we're on a corner, and I turned to this girl that's standing next to us on the corner. And I was like, what the hell is going on?

And I was like, hey, do you know any, like even a diner, anywhere at a restaurant that's open around here? And this girl, she was like in her probably mid-20s. Maybe even a little older. Um, you know. I was like, maybe a little older. No, I just need for this to come out of her mouth. She goes, I don't know, but you know what you can do?

You could Google it. But she wasn't being sarcastic. Like, that's something my sister would say to me with so dripping with sarcasm where I'd be like, oh, you really got me. But this girl thought she was giving us great advice. She was like, oh, oh, but you know what you could do? You could Google it.

I could try to Google it. I was like, oh my god, you're so right. Have you ever said that to someone in a sarcastic way where it's like, someone will be like, you're like, here's my address. Take it to my house. And I'm like, what's the cross street? And then you're like, I don't know.

Let me Google it. And then you Google it and tell them. No, have you ever done that? That specific exchange. It's mean. No, never mind. You're saying reverse it and be sarcastic. Yes.

I get you. Yes. I've never done it. I'm positive. I've, well, I mean, like that's just saying, have you been a bitch in this certain way? Absolutely. There's a way to be a bitch.

Have you done it? Uh-huh. Yeah. That was, you sang a ha to me just now. Yeah. No, even that was bitchy. Anywhere on that bitch color wheel, I've been there times 20.

I mean, it's a beautiful rainbow. I like it. There's subtleties or shades. Yeah. I mean, oftentimes it's necessary, like the way I answered the girl who sincerely told me to Google a restaurant. And I was like, thank you.

In a way where she's like, you're welcome. And walked away thinking she'd made a new friend where I was like, I just tried to stab you with my words, but okay. Her brain was frozen. It was really cold. Her brain was frozen. She was probably shitfaced.

Shitfaced. And just really good at covering it up. Any, do you have any actual business? No. I met a couple of murderinos at a Ryan Adams show over the weekend that were really nice. Cool. That weren't like, that were really cool.

Cool. Shook hands. That's business people. Yeah, they're really nice. Thank you. I'm, and it was nice. Oh, did you meet the executive of GM? Yeah.

We shook hand and I strung for him handshake. Had a glass of really expensive whiskey. Nice. I don't know what I would say the name of it. If I knew it, an expensive glass of whiskey was called. I don't know. McClellands. Mixum.

It's 108. McMunnies. McMunnies. Business. Just throw 108 on there. Business. Let's see. My favorite murder, no, my favorite murder shirts.

Hats are on sale until Monday the 12th. Hat sale. I don't know. It's summer. Do you like a hat? Do you like fucking not getting skin cancer on your face? You know what I love? Get a hat.

Oh, you weren't asking me. But I do love not getting skin cancer, which does run in my family. I also lately have a landing. My hair gets so greasy over the weekend. Throw in a hat and go to, you can go anywhere, really. But like go to the grocery store, drive around.

I'm not there yet. Can't do it? I'm really slowly working my way into hats. Maybe someone told me I looked ugly in them once. I don't know. Probably. But something happened. I didn't mean it like that.

I know you did it. I know you did it. That's why I didn't say it. But it would have been really funny. I was like, why are they laughing? They probably did say that. We've all been wanting to. See, that's the shade of the bitch scale.

I don't even realize I'm on it. That's the gray part. The like red part. I did not mean it like that. I did not mean it like that. Probably. Well, I meant like still is affecting you. Were they wrong?

Can you argue it? No, I mean it like things like that. I feel like that's my sister. My sister's voice gets into my head. Because I can't wear a hat with like, I definitely can't wear a hat with earrings. Because immediately I'm like, oh, hey, left eye Lopez. Like it's too many accessories on your head.

Yeah. But I have to wear glasses. Can you wear a fake beard? Nope. That counts too many accessories. Fuck. Okay, I patch. I'll try it.

Because I think that you look like a Hollywood star trying to cover her identity when you were a hat. Right. At the grocery store. What's what's bad about that? Nothing. Get into it. Like live your life.

And don't just don't have to wash your hair. Or get your gene cancer. Right. Always good. Have you considered a different type? Are you thinking baseball hat right now? I'm specifically, yeah. Yes.

Trying. I just can't. Yeah. I have a picture of you wearing a hat way over to the side. You trying to call me out? Well, no, I'm trying to remember were we in like a thrift store or were you just doing it for the sun? I'll wear one in the actual sun when I'm sweating

and don't give a shit what I look like. Okay. Okay, bye. This is my favorite son out. Okay, I wasn't calling you ugly. See you later. Do you have any business? Yes. Okay.

There was a woman in Australia, a murderer. Oh, yeah. Who went on to a game show no Americans ever heard of, which just makes this difficult because this doesn't stick. If somebody had texted us and said a murderer was on Jeopardy. Oh. Right. The we'd all have shed our pants and freaked out.

But everyone in Australia is like shedding their pants and freaking out. And they're like, murdering knows on the chase. That's my accent. What's it called the chase? The chase. Okay. It's called the chase and I have it right here. What's her name again?

Natalie Krug. Okay. This is Natalie Krug. She's a contestant on the chase. You Natalie Krug. Listen, murdering knows if you want to get above someone beat this. I don't know. I'm kidding.

I don't care about that. Your personal motto is stay sexy and don't get murdered. So where does the motto come from? It's from a podcast. I'm obsessed with true crime podcast. And this is from my favorite murder. Yeah. Murder. So they were talking about my parents two very funny ladies in California.

Get together and talk about their favorite murder. Really? And it's something that they were true crime nuts. Yeah. And now they just chat about it. And it's they do their research. It's a very. What?

No, we don't. Oh, it was a different show. Yay. Stephanie. I mean, that is so fucking surreal. I can't believe it. Don't get murdered. Murdered.

How'd she say that? Don't get mad at me. No, no, no, no, and then everyone else. Yeah. Stay sexy. Don't get mad. It's so cool. Oh, it's amazing.

It's so wild. Thank you so much. Natalie Krug. Fuck, I called her Stephanie. Did you? Yeah. I'll edit it out. Thanks.

Natalie. I'm like, it's so crazy. We love our fans, Stephanie. Stephanie, you mean the world to me? Stephanie, no one's that memorable, are we? Can you give me a clean Natalie? And I can just punch it in. Natalie.

Natalie. Do Peewee Herman from Aging. Mr. Herman. Mr. Herman. I'll do the thing. Do the thing. Oh, yeah. Whenever there's someone talks about corn, I always say,

can you say maize? And then Karen fucking blows it up by saying, this is Paco and his wife, Annez. That one? Yeah. Peewee's Big Adventure. There's no basement in the Alamo. Either one.

But the first one is better because it's like, it's really obscure. You know what I mean? Like the first time I said it, we are, yes, we're quoting Peewee's Big Adventure. And the first time I did it, the delight and gorgeous face that I also knew a line from Peewee's Big Adventure to the, like,

to know where it went in the scene was, you were thrilled. But everyone, like everyone knows the line I was saying. Everyone knows a thing in the Alamo. But then you took this obscure line and said it perfectly to something I've been saying forever, which is, can you, is it, can you say maize? And then I was just like, whee. Like I was like, I was being pushed, you know,

like a shopping cart all of a sudden, you know, just like, this is so cool. Well, and also, I think I explained this to you, but my friend Jennifer Gearing and I, who is my life long friend, I haven't seen her forever because she lives in DC. I'm sure she doesn't listen to this, but I, Jen, I love you if she does. But we grew up together.

Our families were friends. So our parents would hang out together and like get together. And then Jennifer and I were just the two youngest. So we would pair off and go have fun. But she's the greatest. Like we saw Raiders of the Lost Ark in the theater together. Like all of my, all of those major moments of childhood I had with Jennifer Gearing.

And of course we saw Pee Wee's Big Adventure in the theater together. And so we just spoke in movie quotes constantly. So we would just, when we were bored or there was nothing else happening, kids, this is before social media. What you did was just say movie quotes back and forth to each other, like lunatics.

That's how my brother and I have communicated. Like we hated each other. And then the Simpsons half started happening and married with children. And then like since then he and I've never had a conversation that isn't a quote from one of those two. Like we just, yeah, we just can't do that. We have like a secret handshake.

Yeah. That's from family therapy though, but we have this. Oh, that's real. I thought you meant the Simpsons quotes were the secret handshake. The secret handshake is from when we had to go to family therapy. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

And actually, yeah. Okay. It was good. It was great because we managed to get a secret handshake and then we hated the therapist together and everything was fine. That's good. Yeah.

And then you have like comedy bonded you. Yeah. That's why we still do it. That's why it's so good. Sweet. So good. What were we talking about? We're talking about Natalie.

Murder. Murder. There's something. Murder. Murder. Stay sexy, don't get murdered. There it is. There was something else, I'm sure.

Steven. Well, I was like saying, speaking of Australia. Oh yeah. You guys are going to Australia. We're going to Australia. I'm just feeling it. Thank you, Steven. Did we should always do announcements, pretend we never remember them

and Steven always has to tell us that way. Yeah, everything. Jump in. No. I mean, I have the dates. Please. Do it. You do it, Steven.

But do it, like really build it up and try to sound like you work on the radio. Try to sound like a K-Rock DJ. That's our vocal stage. Can we get some professionalism, Steven? Steven, please. Monday. Monday. No.

Yes. Yes. Monster Truck Rally. Oh, wait. Rodney, like Monday. Rodney on the Rock. Yes. Rodney Pan.

Monday, September 4th in Brisbane, Australia. Oh, I can't do that. Dude, no. It's broken. It's too late. Now, do Judd the Fish. Oh, my God. Oh, shit.

What is Judd the Fish? Like, brah, right? Like, really scrawny. Talk crazy. Like, he talked like he had a weird stomach issue. Like, I don't like that. Say it like everyone's favorite on radio personality, Steven Ray Morris. Oh, yes.

Wednesday. That Steven really saw us. Oh, God. That's my real voice. Where was I? Oh, Monday, September 4th in Brisbane, Australia at the Tivoli. Uh-oh. The Tivoli?

Yeah, the Tivoli. Thank you. No problem. Wednesday. Oh, I can't do that. Yeah, you did it. That was it. Wednesday.

That was like, can you just tell us when the fucking show? September 6th in Auckland, New Zealand at the Bruce Mason Center. Bruce Mison Center. The Bruce Mason Center. Friday, September 8th in Melbourne. Yes. At the Comedy Theatre. Just the Comedy Theatre?

Just the. Okay. The. The big one? And then Monday, September 11th in Sydney at the Enmore Theatre. At the Opera House. Yeah, and the pre-sales going on right now. And then General On Sale is, thank you, is Tuesday, June 13th.

I just got, honestly, that was sincere excitement. Because I'm like, oh, that's a legit Australian tour. Dude. Dude. Thank you. My favorite murder.com slash live is where you get all this shit, right? There's links and such. My favorite murder.com slash live.

Yeah. Oh my God, we're going out. We're coming for you, Australia. Please get ready. Coming for you. I'm so excited. So excited. And New Zealand.

It's going to be bananas. Elvis and Mimi are going to come. They're no. We're going to bring these big crates. We're going to bring, and then Stephen's going to be their nanny. They're overseas nanny. He's going to be taking them. They get their own adjoining suite.

Yes. Stephen has to ride with them in where the pets go on the plane, though, because I'm just worried about leaving them alone. I'll leave them alone. Cargo, yeah. We have to put Stephen in a crate in cargo. Yeah. Otherwise, the cats will be scared.

He's like crying, laughing. This is his dream come true. Because he's so excited. He's like, that's the birthday I want. I want my next birthday. Oh, hey. Technically, it's my birthday today. Georgia.

Could not tell Thursday. But when people hear it. Yeah. Happy birthday to you. You guys are good podcasters. Happy birthday to you. Oh, Elvis is leaving. Elvis, what?

That was my best version. Thank you, guys. So rude, Elvis. Happy birthday. What's your birthday resolution for the coming year for you? Oh, shit. As you're in this new age. Live it.

Love it. Learn it. Right. Learn to levitate. Fuck. You're on fire. There it is. What if I did all of those things?

That would be such a waste for a podcast. I'll be like, you guys, I swear to God, she's levitating right now. You're right. I promise. Learn to. But what's something you could see on a podcast, hear on a podcast.

Talk about your feelings. Lebanon. We're going to have a Lebanon podcast. Oh, yes. You should start talking about your Lebanon podcast more. OK. OK. It's called Throw a Rock Edit.

Is that racist? I think that might be problematic in some way. Steven. I mean, I didn't start that war. Guys. So that's all our business, right? We made announcements. That's all our business and then some.

And then some, actually. And it was none of your business. And it was this was the none of your business. Corner. So should we talk about murder? Are there any shows we didn't watch? Oh, I'll tell you what. Tell me what?

What's I have done quite a bit of binge watching as my hair was getting greasy. And I have to go to the store with my how split P. Anderson's hat on. Hell yeah, girl. Thanks. I love that little thing. That's my little fake.

Thanks to our pillow. I have all of the four pillows and you have one. Yeah, thanks. Wait, was I telling you? Oh, okay. So I was digging deep on Netflix because I mean, God bless all of you for still making suggestions and tweeting suggestions at me.

But there's people who are tweeting things like, have you seen Luther girl? The girl that tweeted at me. Have you seen Luther girl? Yes. Like, yes, I've seen fucking Luther. I haven't. You've never seen Luther?

Uh-uh. Oh, shit. I haven't seen a lot of stuff. I really, do you care for Idris Elba at all? Yes, of course I care for him deeply. Okay, then you need to get into that. It's an amazing, amazing thing. Well, so I was trying to go a little more obscure.

And there is a show called Murder Book that I have. Oh, I like that one. It's so good. Yeah, it's the one guy, right? That's on it? Yeah, the, yeah. No, it's not a murder book is what they call a thing about the case.

Exactly right. Yes. So it's almost kind of a cold case thing, but they just call it something different. Yeah. Because it ends up being about cold cases because they go back to the murder book. I love the opening sequence of that.

Isn't it creepy? Yes. You know why I think it's creepy? Because I think it's models. It's all those files. If you're listening, please watch the show. It's very well done. And it tells real good stories of true crimes,

cold cases, whatever. But it's just produced really well. It is. And they have a lot of the people who really worked the case. It reminds me of the detective one that we were talking about on Netflix, but real detectives. Didn't, were you watching one about the occult

that I tried to watch for three minutes and couldn't get into it? You know why? Okay. That's occult crimes. Yeah. And I think it's because it's produced. I think a French company produces it

because they have a lot of French talking heads that then are dubbed over. So you see their mouths moving, but then there's just a voice coming from nowhere that's talking over them. I think it's more than I think occult crimes are stupid. I really do. It's the same thing with like ghost hunters.

It's like, well, the occult isn't a thing. It's crazy people making it up. So I don't care. Okay. You know what I mean? Yes. Although I love the occult. I really do.

What part of it do you love? The mystery. It's just that thing. Outfits. Grown up goffs. Like, yes. Convincing crazy people to do insane things at their bidding. What is the bad part of what you just said?

It's so good. People do it. That's the thing. You know, I don't know. Okay. I don't know. It's just not for you. I guess it's almost like, it's same thing too,

where it's like there's something. I really like that idea if you take the occult part out. So like Jonestown, I think is cool because it's this bigger than life person who is able to convince all these people to do things for him or to do, you know, the same thing with Manson's. Interesting too, because he was able to convince all these people to do things.

And it's like. So you're in the plain cult. But I am not Satan too. And Satan's real. And it's like, no, he's fucking not. And then I get struck by a bolt of lightning. How funny would that be? Smoke just starts coming up from behind the couch.

It was so weird. Georgia in her apartment just got struck by lightning. Ranting and ranting about how Satan isn't real until he was forced to show up. Mimi got on her high legs. Her eyes rolled back in their head. And she started. She was like, I will take you to the dark place now.

I am Mimi. You hear me roar. Mimi, no. Mimi, you were so cute. It's so funny because you'd picture her with like a girly voice. She actually has a very deep satanic voice. And then Elvis is like, I fucking told you.

So this whole time I was trying to warn you guys that she sucked. It sounded like you wanted Elvis to have a New York accent. Like a fucking told you. Fucking told you guys. This has gotten a way off track. Skippers, come back. This was fun.

No, because we were talking about a lot of people actually recommended a cult crimes. That's how I found out about it is because people were recommended. I'm sorry that I shit on the girl that recommended Luther. I adore you for tweeting at me. I didn't mean to do that. You should have tweeted at me because I don't know it.

That's right. I just ended up putting Ikea furniture together last night and and watching Kimmy Schmidt. Which is pretty nice. So good. I love that show. I do too. I really love it.

It's so goddamn packed full of jokes. So good. Brilliantly written. And also it's akin to Bob's Burgers in that when you watch it, it meant if you were in a bad low place, it's up up up. It makes you feel happy.

It's so hilarious. Titus Andronicus should be the president of the United States of America. I would be so happy. It would be so much better. OK, so all right. Girlfriends who are playing this podcast for their boyfriends on a road trip

and we're like, no, you're going to love this podcast. Come back to us. That was good. I agree. Fuck it. Boyfriends who are like to hit their girlfriends. I was also sexist when I just said. This is the best part.

Get ready for the boring part. Yeah. Here comes the boring part. The point of all of it. It's not how you get there. It's how you show up. It's how you get in your car and drive there and then drive there.

Outie for people who want to get to the point. Oh, yeah. Sorry. You guys, we're going to start doing car integrations during the podcast. You'll never know it's coming. We're just going to suggest to you to buy a certain type of car and we get a free one.

Outie. No, I need one. I love an Audi or a Jaguar. Jaguar. Jaguar. I remember when a crow flew into your car and we were in the car. Okay.

If you read that, I tweeted it and I hate to be the kind of person that talks about their tweets in conversation. No, because nobody reads tweets. No, that's true. People are your mind. No. George and I are driving to our show that we did with the women that do the show Wild Horses here in Los Angeles.

Storytelling then Improv's show and it's fucking awesome and so amazing and hilarious. Funny women. They're so great. So we got to go do that show. We are their guests. We're driving there together, talking, blah, blah, blah. I'm playing Delight.

Just like live in life, like LA girls. Yeah, windows are down. Yeah, it's almost like a summer day. Blood to blood out of my peripheral vision. Like basically the corner of my left eye goes dark and I'm like, oh, we're in emergency situation. I turn my head and a crow. No joke.

The wingspan was like four feet wide. Looked like it was trying to make a dive landing into the car. And it's only because you were going like one mile over whatever we were going. Yes. That it didn't fucking fly directly into the car. Yes. I heard its wings.

I know it was like it took us a few seconds when we passed it. And then you go, did a crow just try to fly in our car? And I was like, uh-huh. It was like definitely happened. It took a moment. So insane. Yeah. It almost, I was like, was that crow sick?

Was it like, you have to take me to the hospital right now? Like it seemed desperate. Well, let it hang out with us. It was like, oh my God, I love Delight. Oh my God. I love talking about nothing. You guys, I'm a murderer now because it's in a murder of crows. That's right.

Something. The ridge. I mean, it was, it's pretty funny. So a lot of people had that response to the tweet. That it was a murder of crows. I'm all fine. Sorry. Again, not attacking.

Hey, Stephen, who's going first today? It's you, I think. Is it me? Yeah. Karen's right. I was right about number 72. I am fucking on this shit. Well, the problem is Mimi's entire body weight is on my story.

Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. She looks so shocked. She's like, how dare you pull your story out from under my body? Georgie, can I tell you something? Please. And I need you to hear me.

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Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast against the odds. In our next season, three masked men hijack a school bus full of children in the sleepy farm town of Chowchilla, California. They bury the children and their bus driver deep underground, planning to hold them for ransom. Local police and the FBI marshal a search effort, but the trail quickly runs dry. As the air supply for the trapped children dwindles, a pair of unlikely heroes emerges. Follow against the odds wherever you get your podcast.

You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. This is the highway killer or the interstate killer. Now, this is a serial killer that I had never heard of. I've seen this photo before, but I've never heard of him. And I found the like pretty straightforward story of like, he killed this person, then he killed this person, then he killed this, you know, like the story. And it was so devoid of any details that when I started looking into it,

and suddenly it's like, no, this was way fucking bigger than you thought it was. So we're kind of learning this together. Can I guess which state it took place in? Yes. Texas? You were wrong. Fuck. Because it took place in a lot of states.

Oh. Yes. I see. You tell me. All right. I will. You don't want to make it up? I'm not going to guess the whole story.

I thought I should, but now I don't want to. Just guess. Yes, guess, guess, guess. Okay. From 1982 until 1984, a serial killer was killing young men. He was dubbed the interstate killer because his victims were mostly random hitchhikers. 20 to 23 were dead before he was caught.

What? The victims were stabbed and bodies were found in parts of Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, and Wisconsin. What? Yeah. So the first. I really thought I knew this and I do not know it at all. You know his face. This is crazy.

Okay. So Jay Reynolds was the first victim. He was found on March 22nd, 1982. He was found stabbed to death on the outskirts of Lexington, Kentucky. And all of these. Okay. Nine months later, on October 3rd, a 14-year-old Delvoid Baker was strangled. His body was dumped on the roadside of North Indianapolis.

Then Stephen Crockett, who was 19, on October 23rd was stabbed 32 times. Four of those ones were to the head discarded outside Lowell, Indiana. So then the killer goes to Illinois. And on November 6th, he leaves the body of Robert Foley in a field northwest of Joliet. Joliet? Mm-hmm. Law enforcement is like, oh, there's a pattern, right? Assaults on young men, which back then we know wasn't something that would look very

deep. Like if you look at any of these interstate killings of young men, not looked into very deeply. So stabbing and strangulation are present in every case. Mm-hmm. So then on Christmas of 1982, 25-year-old John Johnson's body is found dumped in a field outside Belshaw, Indiana. Three days later, 21-year-old John Roach is discovered near Belleville. And then the bound body of 23-year-old carwash employee from Terre Haute. His name is Stephen, again, A.G.A. and Agan.

Stephen Agan, he had been stabbed to death and discarded north of Newport, Indiana. So then on June 6, 1983, an anonymous caller tells cops that he knows who the interstate killer is. He says that someone he knew had been picked up and attacked by the killer and had played dead after being assaulted. And so he knows who the person was. The man's name was Larry Eller, sorry, Larry Eller, and he's arrested. Can I say his name correctly?

When you, I don't, Stephen that out, Stephen that out. His name is... Can you Stephen that out? That's the new thing. So leave that all in just for that. So actually leave that out. Holy shit, Stephen that out. Stephen that out, please.

I just ruined this. The man's name is Larry Eller and he is arrested. Okay, let's talk about Larry Eller. He's born in Crawfordsville, Indiana on December 21st, 1952. By the time he was a teen, his mother had married and divorced four times. Oh, that's too many. That's too many. He, I mean, that's fine for like...

What? So like every three years. Yeah. I was just trying to do the math. Yes, yeah. He attends Catholic schools, has some difficulty at 10 years old. He sent to the Riley Child Guidance Clinic in Indiana, Indiana, where psychologists, where psychological tests revealed normal intelligence,

but extreme insecurity and great fear of separation and abandonment, you know. The staff of the clinic said that his home environment was unstable and chaotic and recommend that he be sent to live elsewhere. So at the age of 12, he went to live in a Catholic boy's home. Oh no. I know, where he stayed for five months. Little did they know. Little or did they know?

It was later said by a forensic psychiatrist that his history was one of the worst cases of child abuse he had seen in 20 years in the field. Oh no. Yeah. So there's not a lot of details about it, but they like hinted things, but they don't go too deep into it. Like you can't find details except for one thing about one of his stepdads would pour hot water on his head when he was like mad at him or it's just like that's, you know, and that's horrible,

but there wasn't a lot of other information about it. So he dropped out of high school in his senior year, worked odd jobs for a couple of years, and not long after really leaving high school, he joined the monastery and then he quit the monastery. So Larry Eller is struggling all his life to cope with what turns out to be his homosexuality. So he was simultaneously fast fascinated and repelled by it. He hated himself for it, but he couldn't help himself. I bet the Catholic boys home did a lot of good for that issue.

I bet you're right. Yeah. That was all sarcasm. That was total sarcasm. So he killed his first victim at around 30 years old. Larry was arrested for the assault that the anonymous caller had called in, but the case was dropped when Eller gave the victim money and the victim was like, fine, I'm out of here,

which is totally understandable. You don't want to relieve this whole trauma for no reason. Yeah. The bodies of young men then continued to be found throughout the spring of 1993 with most of the action shifting to Illinois. By July 2nd, the body count stood at 12. Some of the victims had been mutilated after death and a few had been disemboweled. Whoa.

Yeah. The 13th victim was Ralph Khaleesi and he was found on August 31st. Dumped in a field near Lake Forest, Illinois. He had been dead less than 12 hours when he disappeared and was discovered. He was bound with clothesline and a surgical tape stabbed 17 times and his pants were pulled down around his ankles. Then on October 30th, 1983 in Indiana, a highway patrolman spotted a pickup truck parked along the interstate 65. Two men were walking towards a bunch of trees. He stops them. One was bound and when the officer went to investigate, he identifies Larry Eiler as the owner of the truck.

So the cop catches him as he's about to lead someone into the forest bound. Already done. Yeah. And the guy says, he told me he'd give me money for sex. He asked if he could tie me up and we were walking out towards the field. So the guy at that point was actually, it's voluntary because he thinks, oh, I'm just going to get paid. Yeah. And I'm fine to do this.

Yes. So then when the officer searches the truck, he finds surgical tape, clothesline and a hunting knife that's stained with blood. So Eiler is taken in for questioning and when the forensic experts check the blood, they match it with that of Khaleesi who had been found previously. They were also able to match the tire tracks left at the Khaleesi site with that of Eiler's truck and police were like, this isn't enough to put him behind bars. But they let him go while they continued the investigation. Yeah, they can't just hold him. No. Yeah.

So while the investigation continued in the Khaleesi murder, Eiler is set free. Then on October 4, 1983, 14-year-old Dara Canson is found dismembered near Kenahosha, Wisconsin. Kenosha? Thank you. Sorry, 14? Mm-hmm. A lot of young kids. 11 days later, a young John Doe is discovered near Rinalseer, Indiana.

That one I don't know. I only know Kenosha because my friend grew up right near it. Okay, that was a good one. So I've heard him say it. Rensselaer. Rensselaer. What? R-E-N-S-S-E-L-A-E-R.

I got lost at the two S's. Rensselaer. Rensselaer. Rensselaer. Is it bear? Oh, I got that one wrong. That was not my... What was it?

Baxer? It looks like... It's spelled with an X in the middle. Yeah. It's pronounced bear. Last... You're just changing the rules of reading. Yeah.

Then you're... Actually, you're wrong. It's not. Last week. Rensselaer. And tell them that he's wrong. Well, guess what? I am the mayor.

What? I just made myself the mayor. She just took off a mask and revealed that she is in fact the mayor. That's true. Okay. Okay. Almost two weeks later, another John Doe is found near Effingham, Illinois, and two other victims, Richard Wayne and another unidentified male, were found dead outside of Indianapolis.

On October 18th, 1983, a couple is hunting for mushrooms at an abandoned Indiana farm hanging out. They're like, we've found mushrooms here before. Let's get some more. Right? Yeah. For either for a salad or to trip out all day long, whatever this couple is into is their business.

It's their business. They've been there before. They're not there to hurt anyone. That's right. But they are there to find two skulls lying near a dilapidated barn. No. Uh-huh. So, we can at least assume that they were stoned on pot.

Yeah. They were looking for mushrooms. And they're freaking out, man. And then they stumble upon, like, remains. That's awful. Yeah. Those poor hippies. I know.

Then it actually turns out that they're also businessmen. Well, turns out they're the murderers. No. No. No. So many twists. They're also businessmen murderers. Oh, my God.

Finally. That's the area I want to go into. It's all of it. I want the murders that happen inside of the Enron building. Do you think I need it? I mean, they could have. It has to be at least one. There has to.

There was so many people in that building. Yeah. Everyone was, like, like on a lot of pressure. Yeah. Okay. They had to either sell or buy or kill. Dependent. That's sell-buyer kill.

Sell-buyer kill on lifetime. Yeah. Oh. Write it down, Stephen. I don't know. I don't know. What about a grocery one called? Sell-buy-dead.

No. Like a sell-buy date? Sell-buy date. And then it's like, you're dead. Sell-buy colon, dead. Dead. No, I love it. I love this.

Okay. We can keep working on that one. But the other one about Enron is perfect. It's sold. They sold it already. Great. Okay. There's an abandoned Indiana farm.

They find two skulls lying together north of the barn off US Highway 41 just across the Illinois state line in Newton County. Way to go, Newton County. Yeah. How simple you are to pronounce and read. Thank you. I'm only doing murder from places that are just one syllable, but it's two syllables. Just town.

Yeah. Something town. No X's. Nothing. No double S's. When police get to the scene, they then find two other bodies. Whoa. Near that barn?

Mm-hmm. Fuck. One of the victims had been decapitated and all had had their pants pulled down and they had been stabbed to death. Two of the victims were identified, Michael Bauer, which is my friend's ex-boyfriend's name. The Army three-year-old pizza deliverer, last seen taking out the trash at his parents' portage park home, which was what, a fucking bummer?

Yes. And John Bartlett, who's 19, who was staying with his sister in Chicago after being discharged from the Army. I know. By this time, police were like, this is clearly Larry Eiler. They fucking knew it was him. Another victim who had survived his attack identified photographs of Eiler. And another survivor came in and was like, yep, happened to me too, but the investigators

wanted him for homicide. So their circumstantial evidence was still incomplete, so they wouldn't arrest him. Yep. So Larry Eiler at this point is under constant surveillance in Chicago. And because of this, he files a suit against the Lake County Sheriff's Office, accusing them of mounting a, quote, psychological welfare, nope, psychological warfare, not welfare. That'd be a good thing. Campaign to unhinge his mind.

Right. Yes. That's what they do. That's what all the police are trying to do to this one guy. Yeah. Who happens to also be a child molesting murderer. Yes. His claim for half a million dollars is denied.

What? Yep. He's not the victim in this scenario? No. It turns out. How odd. And as he's leaving the courtroom, Eiler is arrested for Ralph Khaleesi's murder. Wow.

That's sweet ass timing on those police people's part. They were just like, oh yeah, you want to go in and try to, you want to try to sue the city? Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. We'll meet you out here. Don't get too stoked yet though, Karen.

Oh. Yeah. He's held in lieu of a million dollars in bond, but in the pre-child hearing, February 5th, 1984, all the evidence recovered from Eiler's truck the night they found him with the guy who was bound gets excluded. Why? Because the night that they found him in the truck, they held him without arrest in the jail for over 12 hours, which you're not allowed to do.

Yep. You have to have a reason to hold him there. That's right. Like arresting him. Wow. So he's released on bail. I know. It's a real bummer, man.

It's crazy. It's crazy when it happens when it's a serial killer. It's not, this isn't a shoplifter. It's not like someone's rights were slightly stepped on who was, you know, like a slum lord or something. Yeah. But this is a person who is out, a predator that's intentionally killing innocent people every day.

Well, here's what gets even worse is now he goes on to kill a bunch of people. Okay. After this. Right. Because they couldn't hold him. Right. So on May 7th, 1984, 22-year-old David Block was found murdered near Zion, Illinois. His wounds also was the pattern of everyone else who had been killed already.

Okay, so then August 24th, first 1984, a janitor of an apartment house in Chicago goes to take out the garbage and empty the garbage can and they're overflowing with gray bags, like nice gray trash bags. And this guy, his last name is Bala. He's like, those trash bags aren't what my tenants use. My tenants use cheaper bags. He knew they weren't his tenants because they were nice trash bags and was like, my tenants are pieces of shit.

They don't buy this stuff. They don't buy hefty. They buy fucking 99 cents store shit. So it made him suspicious and he says, quote, I was very pissed off a little bit. So I opened one up, ripped it open. I was very curious what the hell am I throwing out? He says, can you imagine what his accent sounded like? This is Chicago, right?

This is a Chicago janitor, yeah, in the 80s. Like building manager guy. Yeah. Who gets pissed about garbage. Yeah. What am I throwing out? I just want to know. I just want to know.

You putting your garbage in here? I want to know. I can't do the accent. No, I can't do it. What's even what's the accent for Chicago? See you then. Do Chicago. Hey, I'm throwing at the garbage here.

Well done. Get angry though. I'm throwing at the fucking garbage here. I don't know. I don't know. Stephen that out. That turned over into triple Chicago. Yeah.

That was amazing. It's just like harder accent is angrier. So of course he's opening the bags and guess what? A leg slips out. No. All to the ground. Yeah. So eight, within eight bags are the remains of 15 or 16.

And I can't tell your old hustler Danny Bridges. He's like 15 or 16. He's a child sex worker, hustler, you know, the streets of Chicago back then. Can you imagine seeing a 15 year old like working the streets and stuff in the 80s? Yeah. Probably the 90s too. Let's be honest. I can't write up till today.

Well, so Danny Bridges is a known sex worker by Chicago police special investigations unit. They had been established to combat child pornography and the sex abuse of children. And they actually had worked with Danny to get his story to people who are advocating for teen sex workers. So there's a couple of channels doing new stories. I guess there's video of him talking to them like doing news news stories. I can't find them and I would fucking love to see them. This kid looks so like he just looks like he's knows too much about life.

So 15 years old. Yeah. He's a freshman in high school. Well, he had probably been, I don't think he goes to school at this point. Yeah. But I mean, just the equation of like if he had rich parents, if he grew up in Evanston and was, you know, had little eyes on sweater on and was listening to fucking the specials, pop ciders, maybe be quiet.

So he was warned by the Chicago special police to stay away from, from this guy, from Eller. That like everyone is like, stay the fuck away from this guy. We're trying to get him. He's a murderer. Yeah. People you know, stay away from. Okay. But later, one member of the special investigations unit acknowledged in the book what cops know

by Connie Fletcher that the unit encouraged child prostitutes to have sex with adults in order to make a rest as in they would set them up like a sting operation, right? Which I know is super inflammatory, but it's in this book. I didn't say it. The quote. Well, that was basically the practice was they're using these children as bait so they can get these bad guys. That's the only way they can actually lure them out.

Right. They can't use legal people to do it, even though it was completely. But ethically, they should be using evidence that's not putting a child at risk. Exactly. And that's the, like, yeah, I guess, even if it was like someone who was of age and they were working with the police for some reason, but this is just like so dark and deep. Well, these days, they would just use people who are looking, it would be a 21 Jump Street

yeah. Sex worker edition. Yes. And so he said the quote from the SIU investigator says, our opinion is that you should go out and find the crime. What better way to prove and have him, what better way to prove the crime than to get it in progress or to follow someone home and have him go to bed with a kid is what this guy said in this book.

Yeah. 82, 84. 80. This was, this book was written in 91. Oh, no. I know. So, so it seems that that they acknowledged that the unit encouraged child sex workers to have sex with adults in order to make arrests.

Right. So, and it also Danny Bridges was needed to testify in pending child pornography trials. So this kid was like deep in it and he gets killed. So in one of the NBC videos, a reporter asks in 1984 asks Danny Bridges about Eiler and he says, yeah, I knew him. He was a real freak. He used to come around uptown and hang around. So this kid, Danny Bridges knows about Eiler and the question then is why would he go home

with him if he already knew he was a creep. So Danny Bridges is going to get into a car with a guy that he knows is a creep. No, unless maybe he was doing it for the police. Oh. It's kind of the question. Right. Which is one. Yeah.

It's like literally live bait, like worst case scenario. And it was never, I mean, this is just like something I found in a bunch of little articles, which I'll name at the end of this. So so perhaps the whole thing was a sting that went wrong because Danny did get killed. Yeah. So how the fuck does that happen? Like you that's so that's the craziest version of that story where it's just like, like if the cops were using him as bait, then what excuse in the world could they have to then

somehow lose track of him? You know what I mean? Like that would be the only if you're letting a child get into the car with a known serial killer, you can't like, oh, whoops, they took a wrong turn. I mean, like that's insanity. Well, here's the other part of this that gets in here somewhere is that they think that Larry Eiler might have had an accomplice because Danny's fingerprints were never found on Larry Eiler's car.

So maybe someone else picked him up, brought him back there. Wow. I know. It's really complicated. Okay. But also usually, isn't that rare that serial killers would have like have an accomplice or work with someone else? I would think so.

But who knows? I mean, I'll ask. Would you ask? I'll ask my friends. I'll ask my friend at the FBI. Would you ask your accomplice, your serial killer accomplice? I'll ask my boss. That's the guy you're working with to kill people.

Okay. So witnesses, you know, after they find the body parts and the garbage bags, witnesses say they saw a man, a live next door, put the bags in the trash. And he is Eiler, who's 31 years old this time. So he just took the garbage to the place next door during the day. He wanted to get caught or he was just really stupid. So Larry Eiler is convicted of murder. And he of Danny Bridges and my Lord, she's been real.

She's all over the map. Okay. Come here. He's convicted of murder and aggravated kidnapping of Danny Bridges in October 3, 1986. He sentenced to die. Then in November of 1990, he's bargaining to save himself from execution. He agrees to help Indiana authorities solve a number of his crimes if they would get him off death row.

So he confesses to the killing of the Aegon torture slaying and surprise investigators by naming an alleged accomplish. Accomplish? I keep saying words wrong today, I don't know what's going on with me today, I'm having a stroke. It's all right. Accomplish. So 53 year old Robert David Little, he's the chairman of the department of library

science at Indiana State University. And this murder of Aegon happens when he's staying with Larry as a guest. And according to Eiler, Little took the photos and masturbated while Larry disemboweled the victim. Oh, no. So he's like, let's pick up boys, you do this, I'll do that. So he's like part of it. And it's kind of his like, this guy, Dr. Little is like his sugar daddy.

He's like paying for his places to live. He used to be a student of Dr. Little and they're like working together. What the fuck? Yeah. It's some real twisted shit that they better fucking make a movie out of because I'm confused. He's a, he's a professor of library science. So there's like a real, that you could make that a super creepy in the stacks style, murder story.

Who would play him? I'm already wondering. Hmm. I mean, are you watching Fargo and how amazing what's his name is? You and McGregor? Oh my God. But the woman, I don't know her name off hand. Who's also in the leftovers.

Yes. She's amazing. She's so good. She has two characters are so different. I am loving Mary Stewart, something or other, not Masterson. Mary Stewart, little. No. Mary Beth, Mary Beth, Mary McBeth.

It's Mary McBeth from the play. I am loving the young hot girl though. Are you caught up? Yes. You mean the one she's playing who's also playing the sheriff? That's not her. The police chief, I mean the girl with the short black hair. Yeah.

Yes, the, you and McGregor's, the dumpy brother's girlfriend is the same as the chief. Hold the fuck up. Yes. No, no, no. Wait, I'm the one that gets to tell you this. I told this to Vince and he's like, no. Well, DeVance is straight up wrong. No.

Yes. I mean, I almost don't yell at Steven. Vince! Vince! We're getting a divorce. Steven! Is this true? Mary Elizabeth Winstead.

Yes. Is that who you're thinking of? Yes. She's playing both characters. It doesn't say on the main Wikipedia page, but if we go deeper, we go deeper. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.

Who's that? It's her. She plays. I'm telling you, eyeliner. Yeah. Nikki. Nikki Swango. Nikki Swango's the girlfriend that's rock and roll.

Yeah. And she plays her? She's the chief. She's the chief and... Wikipedia is failing me right now. I'm like Steven. Steven, I am so mad at you right now. Steven, you're going to get Steven out of here.

Everything you have to say from now on is in a Chicago accent. Oh no. I am DB Fargo. Season three. You're going to have to put this on pause. Season three. If I get this before you, Steven, you're fucking fired. Well, he's trying to fold a microphone and then do it with one finger.

Well, that's his problem. Okay. All right. Okay. Here we go. No, I think you're wrong. No way. Carrie Coon is the chief.

What? Yep. It's two different actresses? Mary Elizabeth something. I thought so. I thought so. Mary Elizabeth Winstead. Mary Elizabeth Winstead's only the girlfriend?

Mm-hmm. I've had so many conversations about how amazing. Including with me because I was like, uh-huh. I agreed with you a couple of weeks ago. They look so much alike. I asked Vince who was the same person too. Because I agree. We always have to believe Vince now.

Why? Yes. He's never wrong. He's never wrong. Never. He also doesn't say shit like I do where I'm like, no, I'm positive. And I'm like, oh, you're right. I'm wrong.

I do that shit all the time. So I listen. Look. Look and listen. You said that she plays two characters and I didn't want to be like, I think you're wrong. So I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, you always got to say if you think I'm wrong. It happens a lot.

Have you tried telling yourself, telling you that you think you're wrong? If you're confirmed to me. I don't like arguing. No, no, no. I just think I don't like. I would rather assume that I'm wrong because I usually am. Okay. What was that thing I said the other day, the cockles of your heart?

Hackles. I said cockles. Yeah. No, again, you said something about. I don't want to get my, you said something about the. I said, I don't like you said something about the cockles. You don't want to get your cockles up. Right.

And the, but it was hackles. This is why I don't argue when people tell me a thing. I know, but I feel like, okay. Well, I would also, when I'm positive about something, it almost changes the fact. I get so positive. I believe you. We're exactly the same way. I believe you.

You do the same thing where it's like, Oh, no, no, no. Look it up. Yeah. Like, let's wait until you see this that I'm right. I don't under, but here's the thing. This happens all the time in casting. Why are you casting two women who look eggs? All I thought was that the, that the, that the police chief woman just had less eyeliner

and a different haircut. And I'm like, this is brilliant that they're making her look a little bit older simply by not. The brothers are the same person, so why couldn't this be that too? I thought it was, I thought it was, I thought it was like a theme. I did too. I did too. I think I stopped thinking that would have been said no.

I would have doubled down. And then he hit me. Right in the face. Oh yeah. So I was like, okay, he's right. And I think she is killing it. So who do you think is killing it then? The chief.

I love the chief. I think now the girlfriend, Mary Elizabeth is fucking, it's suddenly about her. Yes. And I fucking am like, at first I was like, who, like, what's this peripheral character? And now it's about her. And I fucking love her. Yeah. She's, I think I like them both a lot, but I did too.

But I'm, I wasn't, I knew that this, that the other Carrie was good in the leftovers. So I wasn't worried about that, but this chick is awesome. I'm mad. I just think she's now, I think she's bad. No, I'm just kidding. I just thought that it was this amazing job of when you are the kind of girl that dresses rock and roll like the, like the hot girlfriend, you have a kind of aura about you that looks like that.

And when you are a woman that is just trying to fucking get some shit done and have people listen to you, you look like Carrie Coon, which is kind of an old business haircut and not a lot of makeup and not a lot of that. And a lot of just like, I'm not trying to do anything. And it seemed like this perfect presentation of like when, what you do with your womanly attractiveness based on the job you have or based on what you're trying to get done with your job. And it's this thing too of like, you can either use the fact that you're hot or pretty

or you cannot, but the one way isn't better than the other. Exactly right. They're both, it's up to you in both ways and they're both very effective. I just loved that presentation. I'm like, I was giving it so much fucking credit. You need to call a couple people you were at parties with. I'm so mad right now of like me holding forth on what it means, you know, philosophically and representationally of the woman's role or whatever.

I wonder how many people like different actors have argued your point once they believed you at parties or whatever. Let's not act like I go to a bunch of parties. I haven't talked to anybody but the two of you in like a month. So it's Hollywood parties and our therapist. Oh, that's right. I just tried to tell our therapist. Um, she has been in, oh, she was in Scott Pilgrim.

Okay. She's cute. Okay. Oh, rock and roll girl was the girlfriend in Scott Pilgrim. Yeah. Yes. She's great. And she was in 10 Cloverfield Lane.

She's great. I love that movie. I love that movie. Okay. She's been in some cool shit. What about Carrie Kuhn? She's been. She's from the leftovers.

This is not enough for you. It is. That's funny. Um, let's see here. She is. Should we be doing more wikipedia or should you finish your story? Oh, I'm not done. Fuck.

I'm not always done. Fuck. God damn it. I don't want to keep going. Listen. He's a fucking asshole. He died of AIDS. Oh, God.

No, really. He died of AIDS. Fuck. Sorry. That was the end of the fucking story. Okay. I'm almost done. He has a guy who does it with him.

That's the darkest. I feel like that's the darkest. That's probably why we just took a serious left turn. We just touched into the darkest area possible, which is serial, a team of serial killer situations. Fuck that. Also against children. Totally. Yeah.

Totally. So based on his confession, Larry Eiler receives a 60 years prison sentence on top of what he's going on through. He agrees to testify against Dr. Little, who's arrested on the murder charges. And in the absence of physical evidence to support Eiler statement, little is acquitted of all charges in 1991. So, okay. Later, Larry Eiler's attorney finds out that Dr. Little had been paying for Larry Eiler's

defense. So, Larry's testifying against Dr. Little for the prosecution, but has a financial relationship with the prosecution's lead witness and a legal duty to his client, and it's all crazy fucked up. So, that shouldn't have happened. However, okay. Back in Illinois. But it happened anyway?

Basically. It did. But they didn't figure that out until one time later. Back in Illinois, Larry offers to clear 20 murders in exchange for commutation of his sentence to life. And the state authorities say no, and then I wrote dicks because there were more murders going on after Larry Eiler's was put into prison that were very similar to what was going on when he was killing people.

Was it Dr. Library Little? It was someone else who worked in a similar manner. And Larry Eiler's is like, yo, I'll tell you everything. And I'll put all of this to bed if you just don't kill me. And the guy who was like, um, this was the new something. District attorney. Thank you. And he was like, no, we put him, uh, Jack O'Malley, he was the Cook County state attorney.

He could keep him keep Eiler and Jeff the rest of his life, solve more than 20, 20 old murders, help bring to justice a killer or killer still in the loose and save taxpayers taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeal costs. But good old Jack O'Malley said a burden in the hand is better than 20 in the bush. They said that. So he said, no. So he was basically saying killing this one guy is worth it. Okay.

All right. Okay. So Larry Eiler dies of AIDS on March 6th night, she died 41 years old. Kathleen Zellner handles Eiler's appeals. She describes the killings. He tells her all about all the killings over the last three years before he dies. And she convinces him. She convinces him to let her release his confession after his death.

So she released a list of 21 killings to which she said Eiler confessed and that he said he had an accomplice for four of the killings. He took a polygraph texts, texts that supported all of these things. So it's all true. Maybe. Probably pretty much. So I don't know if you recognize the name Kathleen Zellner. Is it the makeup products that like make your Zellner fur don't get a case of the Mondays

will exonerate your pores. I don't know. Is that what you mean? Trying to think of stuff. You were going on my riff. I thought you were giving me clues for who she really could be. No, no, no. Oh my God.

I was just like, what? Oh, should I know that? Puzzles? Oh, no, no. I was going off your riff. Badly. You couldn't tell because they were very bad. Will exonerate your pores.

I disagree. I think you did great. Thank you so much. I'm honored. No, I'm not. That's my birthday. No, I'm not. No, I never do that.

Okay. One miss. Kathleen Zellner. Who, by the way, if this had been turned into a movie like it was supposed to called privileged information would have been played by Jessica Beale is also now Steve Avery's new appellate attorney. From Wisconsin that making a murder. So she is a defense attorney.

She's on appeals. She's the appeals attorney. Once you get convicted, she comes in and is like, let's see if we can turn this around. So she, that's what she did for him in that she found out that he, that his whole defense had been paid for by the person he ended up fingering his doctor little. So she was like, what the fuck? So she basically, she goes through everything from the trial and is like, here's what this fucked up.

Here's what that fucked up. We're going to go back and appeal all of this based on this, not based on even whether or not you did it or based on, you know, it's purely legal. It's like the prosecutor talked about turnover enough, this evidence they were supposed to did this get, did this go by the book, right? Which might or not mean that the guy is guilty, but it doesn't matter because it's, you know, process. So she's process.

Yeah, which is great. Good for her. All right. George is like, I'm being forced to say this. Yeah. No, I mean that though. It's like, you know, it's the thing that fucking guy, Brennan says to us too, which is like, it doesn't matter.

You have to give them a good fight, right? Which is like, no, but I'm in jail forever. All right. George, 11 bodies after his arrest, 11 bodies turn up in rural counties in Ohio and Indiana, all the same age, ligature marks, all this shit. And then so that's it. Where's Dr. fucking little? Is he the one doing it?

I don't, you can't find information about this shit. Oh, I want to give a shout out to this, the article really that sums up everything really well was called the return of Larry Eiler from the Chicago reader in 1992 and it's written by John Conroy and it really is the best article you can read of it. And then there's a couple of other ones here and there that give some information, but it's so hard to find anything. Right. But this return of Larry Eiler, I want to read that it's, it's just such a fucked up.

Okay, I hope I told that well enough and I know I was like, I didn't say words correctly sometimes, which is how I do things, but hey, it's your birthday. It's my birthday. No, that's. My mouth is dry. Amazing. Well, now I just want to, now I'm so mad and want to know it also that sounds like such a dumb political stance of yeah, we are going to kill him because we've got the chance to

kill him and he deserves to be killed, so we're going to kill him. Well, this, this guy was also like, it was his first death penalty that he had gotten and they were all proud of that. So he didn't want to give it up and seem like a pussy. Right. And so all these parents whose kids had disappeared and they didn't know where they were and people who thought it was going to keep happening were like, give this guy life in prison, he's not going to get out.

And this chick Kathy or Catherine's Eleanor was also like, because the guy was like, well, what if he then gets out in 30 years because we took the death penalty away and she like proved that he wouldn't because of these, because of this other, this other thing he got found guilty of. So it was never going to happen. Anyways. And this guy just like wouldn't hear it. Yeah.

He's admitting to 20 murders and you give him a life sentence. He won't get out and 20 life sentences with no parole. He wouldn't have. Oh, that's fucking heavy. Yeah. So it's just, it's just fucking sad and crazy that we've never heard. It's just another one of those like, you know, a disenfranchised group of people are getting killed so nobody cares and it's not a big deal to anyone, right, except their families.

So why prosecute hard or what, you know, and what, and no, it's nothing against the cops and actually there's one John Doe that one of the counties had, they could never find out who it was. So they, all the cops there paid for a funeral for him and like, and like went to the funeral and visit the grave and got him a headstone and it's like, it's not, it's just, it's just shitty. Man. It's so shitty.

Yeah. It's such hard work and that's so shitty. Yeah. Well, and you know what this made me think of in just a pull out bigger picture thing because we, even since I was in high school, being in high school in the 80s, the difference of the way people talk about being gay, people treat gay people, it is exactly the opposite of how when I was a teenager. And so I think the younger people don't appreciate it as much, but this is such a great example

of people going like, oh, you know, men marrying men or women marrying women, what's next or whatever, all that kind of shit. It's such a, like when you look at how, when you repress and oppress people and tell them that they can't be who they are, the kind of things, the kind of psychological damage that that causes and what that can turn into in certain people, obviously not always because, but the idea of that, that people back then not that long ago were, were absolutely forced to not only deny who they were, but to some were made to despise who they were to the point of having to kill.

It's such a fucking heavy concept. Well, what's crazy too is if like for the victim side, it's also that thing of like when you, when you make fun of people for that thing, you make them less human and less, you identify with them less as a human being. And so when these horrible things happen to them, you can't have empathy for them because you don't think they're normal human beings. Right. And the other thing I was going to say was something really poignant about, well, that

I mean, on top of that, which is an incredibly poignant thing to say, what you just said is kind of, it almost like that argument that was so popular online five years ago or whatever of like everything's funny, rape is funny, anything is funny, like maybe in your small group of friends, that could be true to you and the people who are just like you. But then the larger scheme of things, that's exactly right. It's dehumanizing to people and it's and it's dehumanizing to situations where it's like, but that's actually not the case for everyone. And this, it feels like these days, the attempt almost subconscious societal, you know, as

a human race, we're just trying to be more connected and more empathetic to each other, no matter who that other person is. And so if that person isn't like you, you might not laugh at those same jokes as you, of course you can still tell whatever fucking joke you want. But the idea is, are you going to make a human connection or not? Or are you going to cancel that connection forever? Because you so value your momentary need to say whatever the fuck you want. And I think more and more people are being like, what the fuck is wrong with you that

you need to make fun of these people? And I think what's really cool nowadays too is like, we're so much more willing to call people out on their shit. Like why are you making a rape joke? And when you do make a rape joke with five of your friends, you don't know if one of them has been raped and so they're never going to come forward because you're making it a joke. And I think that people are more willing to call other people out on it now.

And there's a psychological thing with people who can make jokes about that, that there's something fucking wrong with them. A hundred percent. I think that's really what it's turning into is, as opposed to talking about this as a need or a right or anything like that, it's just like, well, actually it's just a reflection on you, which is really what it, I mean, it's all of these, it's a very complex thing. It's all of these things at once, but ultimately, like for me as a person, it just makes me think of you as a person less, definitely less.

I just don't talk about that I think of you less, but I absolutely think of you less in the same way that like there are a lot of people who didn't grow up while AIDS was a thing. I was, I can remember the news report when they first reported AIDS as an issue in the Bay Area. I remember it, I remember how my parents reacted, I remember the moment. I think I was like 11 and growing up under this unbelievably scary, dark thing of AIDS. And then having my friend Ken Mason, who was one of my closest friends from sixth grade

through high school, died when he was 22 years old because he was closeted and because he got AIDS, 22 or 23. I'm so sorry. It's very, very sad, but like when people make AIDS jokes, I don't go never make that joke again or whatever. I just go, oh, you don't get it. That's who you are. You don't get, but also that you don't get it.

It's almost like proclaiming your ignorance of lack of empathy, but also just that you haven't really been through life that much. You haven't lived, you're probably kind of spoiled. Both your parents are probably still alive, you know what I mean? Like when you decide that you get to make whatever race joke, you get to say the n-word, all this shit that you think you can do, just reflects on you. It's just about the quality of your character. Totally.

Why am I still talking? Because it's important. Steven, Steven, all that out please. Steven it out. Let's all make this a mini-sode. Steven it out. Steven it out. That's going to be our like break music.

Steven it out. Won't you Steven it out. Please go up at the end. Steven it out. Won't you. Steven it out. It out. Okay, it's time to have an honest conversation.

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There's going to be terms and after that conditions always. Every time. Goodbye. Goodbye. All right, let me tell that story one more time. My murder story one more time. Good practice. Just to get it right.

Right. And then we'll... Did I make a lot of mistakes in the beginning of that? Can I redo it, Stephen? Not right now. He has all your fixes in there. No, but like the words I mis-said. I'm just going to put Natalie in between.

Oh, no, Natalie, I'm sorry. You want me to do mine? Yeah. Always and forever. Okay. Here's mine. This I got. I was watching forensic files as we all...

I think I swear to God, I think someone just very recently tweeted at me, do you watch forensic files? I'm not kidding. Karen is hot about this. The answer is yes. If there's a policeman in it, I've at least watched it one time. That's the rule. Also people are recommending BBC things.

We don't have it yet. Don't ask me if it's a brand new... Okay, take this out. I've gone too far. Okay. I'm watching forensic files and I have a recovered memory of the best forensic files I've ever seen and I'm like, how come I haven't done this one before? That's insane.

I love it. I love when that happens. I'm like, oh my God. Why haven't I? And it's like a big... So this, when I watched this on forensic files the first time, I remember standing up and going like no way or something. I love it.

It was one of those. I'm so excited. So I was like, gotta look this up. Gotta find my info. And it is insane. And it's an LA one. I want everyone to know that the word insane by Karen's hand gestures was written in lights. You did the written in lights across.

It was like a Lize Manelli Broadway move. Uh-huh. Insane. It was like if, yeah, like a cartoon then could put up sparkly lights. Gling. That said insane. That said insane. It was gorgeous.

Okay. So this is the pillow pyro. Love it. I read it. Right? So you may remember this. I don't know. You're a little too young.

Throughout the 80s in Southern California, there was a spate of arson fires that killed families. It cost tens of millions of dollars, went on for years, um, and baffled authorities. And sometimes arson fires were being set up to three times a day. Holy shit. In the Southland, as they like to call it on the news here in Los Angeles. And in one TV show that got canceled in Southland. The best starring Sean Hattacy.

Um, okay, so all of this is I'm retelling you a forensic files. It's one of my favorites. That's where I get the chronology, some of the wording, whatever, but also within that forensic files, they talked to one of the talking heads is, um, a famous crime writer. And he was also ex LAPD detective. He was a detective for the LAPD for 20 years. His name is Joseph Wambaugh and he wrote a book called fire lover. So if you really want like the deep down story, which I would highly recommend, I think I

want to read this book after I got, um, I, I, I'm listening to it. There's something that I have to say about this week. No, it's not. No, it's not. But yes, um, it's not. I have something else. But you have been listening to it. I started listening to it.

Like all around the house. I can't stop. I forgot to mention this in the beginning. Okay. We'll have to talk about it after. Okay. Okay. But fire lovers next because this story is so fucking crazy.

Take it. Okay, but as I wrote, I'm taking the chronology and the shape of the story from the original gangster forensic file. Okay. Um, okay. So this episode starts and so I shall start on October 10th, 1984, um, because it's very good storytelling to start it on the day that the San Diego Padres are playing the Detroit Tigers in the world.

Oh, everyone remembers that actually that Vince remembers exactly where he was. I'm sure he does. Right. Troy boy and all. And I believe they were playing in San Diego. So, um, or maybe not. No, no, no. I'll ask Vince.

It doesn't matter. Steven. Steven. Steven. Okay. So it starts on October 10th, 1984. The San Diego Padres are playing the Detroit Tigers in the World Series and there's a hardware store in South Pasadena called Olies.

I don't know if you remember that chain of hardware stores. It's like, you know, it's basically like old school Home Depot. Sure. So they interview a guy named Jim Obedam who worked there in high school and he's talking about how he notices nobody's there because the World Series and the Padres are playing in the World Series. So every, there's no business except for like a few people scattered around the store. A few women, probably.

What's that? A few women, probably. Um, so he hears an emergency message over the PA and then the fire alarm starts going off. And so he looks, he goes out into like the aisle and looks down and there's a huge plume of smoke coming from like the back of the store, whatever. And so he turns and he starts helping the few customers that are there to try to get them out the fire exit doors.

And as they're trying to walk toward it, it's just becomes a wall of flames. And the entire store is like up and fully engulfed. Like immediately he said it happened so fast, he got out of the store, but he had really bad burns on one arm. He said he touched his arm and skin just came off. No, no. Yes. So, um, uh, he gets out, but, uh, four people got trapped in and killed in that fire.

Oh my God. Um, two customers, grandmother ate a deal and her two year old grandson, Matthew Troidel, and then two employees, 17 year old Jamie Satina and 26 year old Carolyn Kraus. They all died in that fire. Oh my God. So the official explanation was that it was an electrical fire. Um, but the arson investigator, um, from the Glendale fire department was on the scene. He believed it was arson right off the bat.

He took pictures. He documented the whole scene, um, when they were saying we think it's an electrical fire, he was arguing with them, um, so then January 1987, there's another fire at another, a different Oli's, um, hardware store and, um, this fire. So this is like three years later. Okay. Um, two and a half, three years later, um, this one is set in the foam padding section. Um, oh God.

Yeah. And then the same day, 90 miles away in Bakersfield, there's a fire at a Kraft Mart store. Um, and in the Bakersfields, uh, fire, um, Captain Marvin Casey arrives at the scene at that fire and, um, he finds in a bin of dry flowers, a slow burning incendiary device, which was three matches wrapped around a lit cigarette, um, with binder paper, rubber banded around the outside of all of it and then put into the dry flowers. So when the cigarette gets down to the butt, it lights the matches on fire. Yep.

And then the match is like the paper and it's the whole thing is just this very rudimentary slow burning incendiary device that you would never, um, that you would never look like no to look for. Right. Exactly. I'm so sorry. Elvis is eating the french fries on her on the counter. Sorry.

He's going to vomit those on the bed in the middle of the night if those are not taken. Thank you, Steven. I think we should leave that in. I don't know though, because you're like, I'm so sorry. Elvis is eating like, Steven, go get that. Oh my goodness. I mean look at me. I'm not getting up.

I don't want to be rude. Georgia's feet are above her head. She's so reclined. Oh, I have a pillow between my legs. Okay. Sorry. Okay. So, they find that incendiary device in the dried flowers, the Marvin Kasey does.

And then on the binder paper, he finds a fingerprint, so he sends that off to the lab and they're like, we have to get that fingerprint. But it is the 80s remember, so everything is like, 100 years old, Xerox, it's the Xerox version of everything. Everything's a fax machine. Everything is a carbon copy of a carbon copy. Yeah. It's like diddos.

Okay. So, while Marvin Kasey is at the scene of that fire, the Craftsmart store, he hears on the radio, a second fire breaks out at a different fabric store in Bakersfield. So, the investigators that went to that fire found that that was also intentionally set with a slope burning incendiary device in the pillow and foam rubber section of the store. There were other suspicious fires in the neighboring towns north of Bakersfield, Tulare and Fresno. So, it's basically all these cities up and down Highway 99, which is basically in California. There's the five that goes up and down the entire state, which is what you drive when

you're going from LA to San Francisco and you want to go 95 miles an hour at a time. The 99 is further east and it's more of a two lane highway and you take that one when you're just smoking a bunch of grass. Okay. So, Marvin Kasey hears the reports on the radio and then he remembers there's an Arsena investigators convention in Fresno that weekend. Oh my God. And so, he realizes that all of these fires are going up and down the 99 ending in Fresno

because Fresno is the northernmost of all the cities that that was happening in and so he goes, he's thinking, what if this arsonist is a fireman and he goes to his bosses and explains this theory to them and they're like, you're fucking crazy. That's insane. That's not true. Like, you know, they're so not into that theory. They were like, think inside the matchbox. Come on.

But he was thinking outside the matchbox. Oh, I get it. God. They basically say he's crazy. Whatever. That's what they say. So, so they find matching slow burning incendiary devices that match the Kraft Mart and the Ole Fires.

Then they take the print. He takes a print that's found. It's entered into AFIS, but there's no matches in the national database. So, he asks if he can cross check all the fingerprints of the people who are at that arson investigation convention with this one fingerprint and they say no. They said your theory is impossible under Nicholas. Okay. So, two years later, in March of 1989, there's another spade of fires.

This one's up and down the 101 and it's further north. Marvin Casey, once again, sees that there's an arson investigation symposium in Pacific Grove. It's up by Monterey, from what I looked on the map, unless there's another Pacific Grove. So, basically, what Marvin Casey does is he narrows down a list of 10 people who are at the first arson symposium and the most recent arson symposium. I don't know if that's correct terminology.

I would have guessed that he was, that whoever was doing the fires was like mocking them or fucking with the people, the firefighters at the symposium. Right. Could be. But he didn't. He was burning nearby like, oh, you can't get him. Yeah. Like, you guys are all here and yet I'm still here.

Well, anything's possible at this point in the story. Except for my possibility. No, you're right. I mean, I think that's just so fascinating to be thought of that. Right. Okay. So, he makes the list of the 10 people who are at both and finally they start working. There's been so many fires at this point, they bring in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco

and Firearms. And so, he gets ATF to cross check the fingerprints with the one found on the incendiary device. There's no match. So, it confirmed that Marvin Casey's theory is no good. His bosses are like, okay, are you going to drop this now because that was your chance to prove it and your theory is wrong. So then, two years later, in June of 1990, there's the College Hills Fire. This is a fire that was in those hills above Glendale, it burned 67 houses.

Holy shit. It's one of the biggest wildfires in California history. And it was proven to be arson. So, by the end of 1990, it was clear that this arsonist was at it again. And finally, the ATF assigned special agent, I'm doing it too. Special agent Mike Matassa to the case. He in starting to work on it and look through all of the evidence and the facts finds out about Marvin Casey's theory and he thinks it's a good theory.

So, he goes back, he sees that the fingerprint didn't match anybody's. So he has the idea that this time he's going to cross check that one fingerprint with anyone who's ever applied for a job with the city. So instead of being those specific dudes, it's just, if it is a fireman or whoever it could possibly be, we'll know if we cross check it with the city fingerprints. It could be the fucking fire receptionist, fire and also receptionist. It could be the fucking Dalmatians. It could be the trainer.

Why didn't you notice that there were five little pads? That was points of comparison or whatever they call it. So, yeah, because you have to get your finger printed when you apply for a job with the city, comes back with a match. The match is a man named John Orr, who is the arson investigator for the Glendale Fire Department. You see the guy at the first scene? Second scene.

Yes. At the, the first story I told. It's the guy that was there immediately saying this is arson. He was calling it out as arson? Yes. Yes. Tell me everything. This is, okay, at this point when they do this reveal in forensic files, I was like,

wait, so what? Because they do it so perfectly that you're like, but who could this be? This is super weird. Or it's someone that wants to be a fireman. Yeah, because it wouldn't be the person that just makes sense of the person. They're like, it was arson. I know. Because I did it.

Like that doesn't, right? You're like, you're kind of stupid or you're so smart. Well, it's, it's, it's that thing of like how serial killers get so narcissistic and so, you know, they're psychopaths. So they think they're smarter than everybody. They don't think they're ever going to get caught. And they really are, it's part of the joy of doing it is being, setting it and then being the first one there to explain to everybody how it happened.

Or showing up and thinking someone else is going to be like, it's arson, but everyone else like, it's natural. It's like, no, give me credit for how smart I am. Yes. They're just saying it's fucking, no. Look around. Do you see this thing? Someone must have been real smart over here.

Look over in the pillows. Okay. So here's the deal with John Orr. He applied to be a Los Angeles policeman first. He all his life wanted to be a policeman. He passed every test except for the psychological exam. Uh-oh. Yeah.

That can't be that hard to cheat, right? I mean, his psych profile, here's the quote from it, from the results of that test. It says, he's a schizoid person who is withdrawn from people and may have sexual confusion on his orientation. That comes out in a cop test. I want to take it. Can we get the LAPD to send us to cop tests? Not the one where you have to climb over a wall dry.

No, no, no, no, no. That one I fucking hate. You know, when they scramble straight up like a wooden wall, I want to light that wall, that wooden wall on fire. Yes. With a slow burning and sunday. I'm going to take a psychological test where I'm going to sit indoors in the air conditioning and pass it.

And pass it with flying colors. Okay. So then he applies to be an LA fire department, a fireman. He applies to be the department. He wants to become the entire department. He applies to be a fireman in LA, but he can't pass the physical. Yeah. Which I mean, could anyone for real?

Because also it's not just being a fireman, but you're in a fireman in LA. Oh, my God. Where it's kind of like the cream of the crop anyway, in terms of people, a lot of people come here with big muscles. Sure. Anyhow. Just an email Karen and if you have big, if you're one of those, how big are your muscles? Let me know.

Yeah. Because I'm super into that. I know. That's what you're going to do. Big muscles. Totally. Okay. So he doesn't pass the physical.

He's crushed, so then he kind of lays low for a while and he applies to the Glendale fire department, which is less Tony and exciting and statusy, obviously, than the LA fire department and probably easier to get into. So he gets in and he actually does very well and he quickly is promoted to captain and then eventually to arson investigator. So John Orr was also on Marvin Kasey's list of the 10 people who were at both of those arson conferences, yep. And later on, they found that the only reason his fingerprint didn't match, it was just

like a lab mistake. It was the same fingerprint. So that was almost, and also then I thought, ooh, Orr, did somebody go, this can't get out or this can't be found out. Sure. Although that'd be insane. Because then it's like, but then we'll let all of Glendale burn just to hide this one fact.

Maybe it won't happen again. Oh my God. Dang it. 67 houses. So after seven years of arson fires, they finally have a suspect. But the fingerprint only puts him at one of the fires, so they have to put him under surveillance. So it's so hilarious in this forensic files. They talk all about GPS versus the tracker that they use on his car.

And they're explaining GPS because no one knew what it was. This man talking about like satellite technology and such where I was like, oh my God, we live like in this triple future. Totally. Compared to 1993 or whenever this. Okay. Totally. It's just so weird.

I love it. So this is basically what happened. I didn't find anything else about the specifics of this day and I so wish I could also I tried to talk about after they find his car, they locate so they put a tracker on his car. And they find once they get all this information, they're like, find him now. He has to be off the street, you know, they find that he's not the Warner Brothers lot in Burbank. And soon after they locate his car there, a fire breaks out on one of the TV show sets.

Are you kidding me? I swear to God. And I was like, which one was it Alf? Like, you don't know? I thought you're going to make me guess. No, I wish I could. Oh, someone's got to know this. Someone's got to know.

And that's what I was going to say. It could be in there was a made for HBO movie called Point of Origin starring Ray Liotta playing this guy radical and I'm I'm sure it's in there. But the only I could find no versions of it, not on HBO Go, nowhere, not on YouTube. There's a version of it. Have you ever seen this where people illegally upload movies? And so they put it into almost like a mortise. So it's it's a TV screen like yours, but turn to the side.

The speed of the movie is speeded up like times two. So it's Ray Liotta being like, get over here and take a look at this evidence like everything's going really fast. I have no idea about that. And also, there's an Asian girl standing there with a remote control pointed at the TV. Like that's all static. And then the movie's happening in the screen. You have to see it.

It's hilarious. If you look if you look up Point of Origin, OK, that's how that's a 1990s ripoff of a movie is. Yes, that's how you pirate a movie in 1991. I tried to watch it for like four minutes and I was like, this is not fucking worth it. I feel like I'm about to go insane. OK, so anyway, but someone can and I bet you in that they say exactly what show they're

on. So anyhow, he leaves. OK, so basically they find that he's at the Warner Brothers lot. Then they get the alarm. A fire is broken out on the Warner Brothers. Elf is on fire. Yeah. Elf's burning.

His whole back is on fire. Someone get over there right away, which is funny because there is a fire department on the Warner Brothers lot. There's actually like a fire truck and a firehouse and everything right there. Yeah, ask me anything. So they track him driving away from the Warner Brothers lot. And then when he gets the official call on his radio at home, he drives back. But the the radio operator gave the wrong address.

So she's like, there's a fire at diddy diddy do he drives straight back to the Warner Brothers lot. They did that on purpose. Yes. Well, they say it was they say bullshit. They make it sound like it was her. It was the dispatchers mistake. But I bet you that was the test.

Yeah. Because you don't need to know the address of the Warner Brothers lot. It's like the main thing in Burbank. Totally. Anyhow, that's when they knew it was absolutely him because he with being given a different address still went to where the fire was. So they're like, arrest him now. So that's they're like, all right, I just said that.

Okay. So they get a search warrant for his home and car. And then inside a briefcase, they find matches, binder paper, cigarettes and rubber bands. Ding dong. He claims it's a coincidence and that he's totally innocent in his home. They find home video that starts with a shot of a beautiful hillside home. And it's like, it runs like that for like a couple of minutes. And then it stops and it starts up again to eat the same home 18 months later, burning

to the ground. So he was all like planned 18 months, 18 months, planned it. It's so crazy. Okay. So then they also find in his house a manuscript for a book called Points of Origin that he's writing. He. Go ahead.

He wrote it. He's writing a book about, what do you think the book's about? Where he's from in Europe, his point of origin. It's a book about an arson investigator who's actually really a serial arsonist. Does Ray Leota in the book version play him already? What do you mean in the book version? Because Ray Leota, never mind. That's the movie name from HBO.

That's exactly right. So he's writing it? Well, yeah, but it's not the same. He didn't write the movie version. Because that would be cool. Like, well, just use his. He even said cast Ray Leota and so we're going to do it. No, they basically go to his house and find a script that is his story, but with a different

name. The, the, the arson investigators name is Aaron Stiles. Here's the, there's a list of similarities between the book and the facts of the case. Both are firefighters, both are non smokers, both this is from like a legal document. Both use a delay incendiary device designed to fully ignite the fire approximately 10 to 15 minutes after the device is in place. In one draft of the manuscript, it describes a match attached to a cigarette and placed inside a paper bag similar to the actual facts of the binder paper match of the binder

paper. Both start fires and retail stores located in Los Angeles during business hours, both place the incendiary device in combustible materials located in the store. Both start fires in the drapery section at a Los Angeles fabric store. Both start fires in display of styrofoam products. Oh my God. Both start fires in hardware stores, both start fires in several retail stores and close proximity to one another within a short span of time on the same day.

Both start fires in the same locations while both the character and the actual arsonist were traveling to or from arson investigators conferences in Fresno. Oh my. So, he's like, he's admitting to the whole thing in a stupid script. It's basically a script called My Diary of Being a Serial Arsonist. And he's, does he say it's a coincidence? Yeah. It's such a strange coincidence, but what's not in that document, but what is in the script

is that his lead character sets these fires, um, and then writes about watching them with an erection or wall masturbating. And one scene in the manuscript, he can't get an erection until he starts a fire. What if that were, what if that were true? What if that were your thing? What if that was your thing? What if you couldn't? How do you figure that out?

And then how do you make it work? And then like, don't. Well, you know what it is. You just don't get an erection anymore. It's fine. I don't know. I don't know if that's. I don't know if that's fine.

That's not an option for some people. Who would it be for, I mean, look, listen, listen, at one point in the book, he describes his lead character raping and killing a woman and then burning her in her car. Authorities found a similar case where the body of a woman was found raped and murdered in a burnt out car, but they couldn't find any hard evidence to connect John or with that crime. Also in the book, the main character talked about setting several fires at once so that the fireman would be overwhelmed, allowing him to watch one of the fires burn freely

until it was totally out of control. Oh my God. And that same character also talked about one of the victims of one of the fires he sets being a two year old boy named Matthew. Are you serious? So the exact victim of one of his fires, he's writing about in this script. Okay. And that was the detail that cinched it for the investigators there, just like, so he's

arrested and he's charged with numerous counts of arson and four counts of first degree murder. In 1998, he sentenced to life in prison plus 20 years without the possibility of parole. He has never admitted that he's guilty, which is one of the many signs that he's a psychopath. He's motivated by his ego, by delusions of grandeur. He believes that he's smarter and better than everyone, no remorse, no guilt. And he's a great actor and highly manipulative. There's actually, I found a couple clips of him talking, he got interviewed. It's before he got caught being interviewed and talking on the news about one of the fires.

And he's, you would, he's asked people the way he speaks, even though he's not like that exciting person, you can tell how he is like so kind of strangely alluring. He's very sharp and very clear eyed and very like knows all the details. He's a real expert. Really. Yeah. I'm really interested in what, yeah, crazy. So ATF agent Mike Montasa believes that between 1984 and 1991, John Orr set at least 2000

fires. What? That's up to 10,000 fires. Some arson investigators and an FBI criminal profiler have deemed Orr to be one of the worst American serial arsonists of the 20th century. Before his arrest, the average number of brush fires in the hills above Glendale and Burbank were 67 a year. After his arrest, that number dropped to three.

Oh my fucking god. So he was doing all of them for almost a decade. He was all him essentially. Oh my god. Oh, and then I just started watching a video about what it actually means to be a psychopath because we've had so many discussions about psychopath, sociopath, all the different languages that we use. And it's basically the psychopath.

What I think is super interesting is that they have absolutely no empathy or connection to other people's feelings. And it's that thing where like to imagine like you could kind of break it down of like, so you're an arsonist, you have like almost like a sexual fetish for fire. So you're forced to set these fires. That's one thing where you're just like, you can't control it. To set a fire during business hours of a large business and then four people get trapped inside that fire and die.

And you still write about them like it's fiction, like it's just this fun idea you have. Like he has absolutely no connection to other human beings. Does that mean that, does that mean that they don't have feelings like us either? Like if you can't be empathetic towards other people's feelings, does it mean you don't know what it's like to be sad? You don't know it's like to be happy or angry or no, I think they have their own feelings. They just don't understand. So this is kind of interesting and this could be completely off, but, but, but this is my

own personal theory because my therapist is really into like all that brain research and how like a lot of times we blame ourselves for just what our natural brain does. So like people are like, I'm super anxious, but actually like our brain, our amygdala like is set to, it trains us to look for, for predators constantly. So if you're not thinking about the past, if you're not like going over what you did the last time you tried to go hunt a bison or whatever, then if you're in the present, you're just scanning for danger. And that's our natural brain set.

It's either excuse me, reviewing the past for mistakes or scanning the present or possible future for danger. These days people think that means I'm crazy when it's like, no, no, that's the natural set point of your brain. I'm anxious. It's like, no, you're just constantly scanning for things that could go wrong. Right. And maybe you're overdoing it because of whatever reasons, but it's normal to be like that.

But I think part of the reason people think they're overdoing it is because people think they're supposed to be at some zen neutral nothing where it's like, no, an active mind is a natural thing, especially a mind that's like, be careful, be careful, be careful. That makes me feel better. Yeah. It's like why we're alive. It's why we, our ancestors lived and other people died because that part of their brain didn't work as well.

Yeah. It's not as bad as you think, but so this other part, there's lots of theory that she gave, she told me that made me very happy, but the other one was we have this thing called mirror neurons that they're just kind of now like doing research on and understanding. But it's the thing of like when you watch one of those videos of a soldier coming home and his dog losing his shit, right? Oh my God. It just makes you cry.

Yeah. That's because that's not happening to you. Yeah. But your brain doesn't know that because your brain is watching another human being, which just looks like you and seems like you go through an experience that the mirror neuron goes, this is what it feels like when this happens. And then like right now I'm getting tingles thinking about those videos because my brain goes, it's you.

When you are taking in that information, the way your brain processes it is that you're having these emotions that that person's having because you're empathetic and you can understand exactly. And that's how we stay connected. And that's how we make sure we have food every night and shelter is because you need human connection to survive like it's tribe mentality, it's it's survival instincts. Right. Psychopaths haven't, well, I shouldn't say that because now I'm making shit up.

But one would say that they don't they're not have that ability. We know. I was about to say they don't have mirror neurons. I know nothing about that brain chemistry or anything, but they we know for a fact they don't have empathy. So when they watch a soldier come home and its dog loses its shit and all those things, they just are watching a video of two things touching each other. So it's not like they they get mad.

He clearly has sexual feelings. He has he wants to be famous. He wrote this thing. He wants different things. He just has no connectors to the people around him and no, he doesn't understand if something happens to that person. It feels the same to them as it does when that happens to him. Wow.

That's heavy. I over explain that, but I really felt like an expert and sometimes you just want to keep on feeling like an expert. If there's any corrections going on for that, save it. Just let me be right this one time. Have some empathy. If you have empathy, you wouldn't correct one of that. Come on.

I'm going to go ahead and say you were right. Thank you. I mean, I'm I think I was at least in the ballpark this time. Yeah. Well, also because I watch are really good. There's some real good videos. This can be my good thing of the week. It's I found these videos that are just, you know, those ones, they explain something

with an illustration. So there's someone talking, but it's being drawn. Yes. I get it now. You put an arrow to a thing. Yes. And suddenly it's clear. Oh, you just have a little Ikea guy that's actually acting it out.

Now I get it. He has a happy face and a sad face. Yeah. And that's how you know how he's feeling. But no hair for some reason too much. So I found a series of videos by the people who make them is called psych to the number to go. And so it's like, what, what does it mean to be a psychopath or how to know if you're

dating a sociopath or, you know, how to deal with your anxiety, whatever. But then I'm like, what is psych to go? I've never heard of you before. So I start looking into that. It brings me to a website that says psychology by millennials for millennial, and then it kicked you out. It's like enter your birth date. Get out of here, grandma.

This is for us. You had to enter your birthday and it's like, sorry, sorry, it made me laugh so hard that it's like, finally, psychology for me. Psychology I can relate to. Yeah. But actually it seems like a good website. Yeah. I was just trying to make sure it wasn't like secretly Scientology or something.

Sure. And then it was like, and anyways, kill, kill, kill, Karen. And then send us the money. Yeah. No, it wasn't that. That's sweet. Uh, my positive thing is that I've been snare going away for my birthday for a couple days and I just can't wait to get out of the city and go antiquing.

I'm going to eat so much food. Maybe there'll be a massage in there. Oh, hey. I just need to get out of town for a day or two. It's going to be so nice and you're going to be by the ocean, right? Yeah. So you get to have some, some of the negative ions, which is real good for you. Does that happen?

That's the ocean air. That's why ocean air always feels good and like makes you feel refreshed. It's them negative ions that we don't get in this polluted city. I'm into it. That's great. Okay. Okay, bye. No, wait, that was fun.

Should we wrap it up? We didn't wrap it up correctly. Um, that was good. I like your, your fire story. Thank you. Yeah. I'm going to watch that. The whole time in my mind, I was like picturing how the forensic files would look.

Yeah. So as you were telling us to me, I was like, oh yeah, then this thing would have like how bad the like reenactments probably were from the nineties and yes, there was a lot of, um, they had a lot of home video. Oh, okay. The dawn of like real. Cause it was his home video. Yes.

So he had to go to the fucking fires and set up his video camera or his, he had, um, a lot of like hard copy photos. Fuck. Yeah. It's the craziest, like, I think that might be my favorite is the, the person that's been wearing a mask and then doing horrifying things and no one knows. And like, it's almost like people don't want to know. Yeah.

I wish someone would talk to him. It's crazy that he's still alive and like how's all this information, but won't even like admit to it so we can like figure him out. Oh, no, in his mind, he's, he, it's another one of those things he's being victimized. He's completely innocent. He has never admitted to anything. Oh, so I wonder what that is all about too. He's a psychopath.

They, they don't admit their, their, even if he, does he know he did it? Yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. How could he think he's tricking anyone? He's in jail for the rest of his life. I guess. Well, he did trick people for so long.

And it's the, that's part of the mental illness is like they're, they think they're the kind of the king of the world. Yeah. Well, shit. I mean, fuck. Don't do it. Look. Stay away.

If you do anything, if you don't do anything, please let it be light everything on fire. Yeah. Right. Yes. I mean, you've heard me say that a million times. Isn't that your lower back tattoo? It wraps all the way around my haunch. Your hat.

Your cackles. My cockles. I want to get my cockles up. Um, well, thanks for listening, you guys. You guys are the fucking sweetest. You're number one. Number one. Stephen, thank you.

Stephen, thank you for all your accents this week. I'm pretty good. Thanks. Oh, there was a moment of thinking. Mimi, thank you for your input this week. Come on now. This one. Mimi.

Uh, Mimi's like, no, that's not, I'm not that one. No comment. And I think while I did that, I broke this microphone. So that was great. You yanked it right down. I didn't mean to. Um, well, thanks for listening, you guys. Yeah.

Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Elvis. Want cookie? Mimi. Want cookie? That was Elvis. Mimi.

Okay. Bye. Bye. Okay, bye.