My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 73 - Chill Satanist

Episode Date: June 15, 2017

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That's Karen Kilgaro. And that's Georgia Hardstar. And we are here. And we are phony. This is how we do the podcast from now on. I hope you like it. We were told by podcast consultants that we should act like this at the beginning of the podcast.

If you're new to this podcast, you can, you probably hate us already. You can go to hell. You can fuck right off. That would be awesome. We're not supposed to curse anymore. I forgot. Oh, that's right. You can F right off.

You can F right in the A. You can go to H-E double hockey sticks. And also email us because that's, you're supposed to get that, this social media aspect going. Right. Right. And we're at, we're both on Bumble, even though Georgia's married. What's another one? That's good.

I actually, wait, you might have to cut this out, Stephen, because I'll say her name to you. But I don't know. Leave it. No, it's Lizzy and I, we're talking about Bumble. We were just talking about dating in general, what a nightmare it is in L.A. and all that stuff. And in the conversation of her trying to get me to join the dating app, I convinced

her to rejoin Tinder. What? It was the most hilarious turn. It was like she was trying to convince me and as she was convincing me, I'm like, well, then why don't you do it? And then she's like, I don't know. I just, I don't know. You know what?

You're right. I should sign up. You're good. It was hilarious. You're good. You're just like, I'm going to turn this motherfucker. That's right. Are you going to sign up for any of them?

No. You're going to meet someone at a fucking gas station pumping gas. They're going to be like, hey. That's why I keep hanging out at gas stations. You got to get a nice car. The problem is that my arms are always crossed when I'm getting gas, so I put out negative. You're more interesting. You don't want superficial shit.

Thank you. None of us still. Also I just don't, I wouldn't know how to pick people based on their picture because I don't test that. Oh yeah. I'm good. I'll take friends phones and be like, yes, yes, or like read their thing. I don't know.

Because it doesn't matter to me. There's no fucking stakes in my fucking game. Shit. I was actually doing it for Lizzie for a little while, but it's that thing where then you start seeing what other people's tastes are, which is really funny where I'm like, oh, I would have said yes to that. Lizzie's like, oh no. Yeah.

This is a murder podcast, by the way. This is called Karen's Diary. That's how we start. This is called, I don't know. This is called, did you hear this interesting true crime based piece of news, which lots of people tweeted to me on Twitter. There's a woman named Agnes Gund who is basically a crazy rich philanthropist. She sold a Lichtenstein worth $165 million and donated all of the money to criminal justice

reform specifically with the eye to reduce mass incarceration in this country. Oh my God. Yeah, and a lot of people sent it to us on Twitter saying there are some good billionaires out there and also finally some positive news. That's great. Which I thought was very cool. I just found a friend of mine, someone she knows is going, a dad, he's sober, but years and years ago, he, well, he's going to prison for eight years for having some pot on him.

Now? In Florida, though. Yeah. Shit. Which is just like so heartbreaking. His whole family is not going to have his income. His kids are going to grow up without him, whatever he could do to be a productive member of society is fucked.

Like it just doesn't make any fucking sense to me. It's so crazy. That's some old leftover. Yeah. Those laws are now seeming like blue laws. They're just so old. What's a blue law? Blue laws are like those laws that were in, I don't know if they were specifically New

England, but it was like, it's like you can't, you can't drink on a Sunday in this county. All that old shit that's like they're just still on the books because no one took them off. You can't spit because the 1919 Spanish flu would walk in it and track it into their house. Exactly. Right. I mean, it should still be illegal. Yeah.

That would be nice. Yeah. Hey. Okay. So. Okay. So finally, because we've been promising it, yeah, wait, do you have any other short pieces of business before we get into that discussion?

Business, business, business. Oh, the video of Kayla Brown when she was discovered on Todd Colup's, you know, farm or whatever. Remember when a couple of months ago there was that they found this woman chained up in a storage container, right? Yeah. They showed, someone was like, they have video of them opening it and getting to her. And I was like, I can't watch this because I pictured her like, like I pictured the end

of Texas Chainsaw Massacre where she's screaming and saying, and it was nothing like that and it was almost worse. I went to watch it. I was going to watch it with the sound off because I knew that part would be bad. And the first shot is she's fully dressed. She's got a chain around her neck, right? Yeah. Like there's a collar around her neck and then a chain.

She's like laying on a mattress, shitty mattress, but it looked so weird. She looked like she was kind of frozen. Like she was so scared. And how long she'd been in there, four months? I'm not sure. Anne had seen before she went in her boyfriend shot, shot and killed to death, yeah. And had probably been attacked repeatedly, yes. And the second it started, I was like, no, I'm not watching this.

I just, what for? Like I'm glad she's rescued. That's great. I want her to get better. I want her to be strong, all positive vibes. I don't need to watch that moment of horror. I felt bad, but I did watch it. I felt bad watching it, but I watched it.

I think what was so interesting to me is how calm she was. And it kind of hit home with that thing of everyone always saying, you don't know what you're going to be like in a, what is it? It's a crisis, a crisis so that like whenever someone gets killed and they're like, he acted like so calm and it's like, you don't ever know what it's going to be like for someone. And this was like the perfect or like a traumatic event. This is the perfect example of that to me. And she was like immediately like, I've been locked up in here by Todd Colehead for this

many months. He shot and killed my boyfriend. Like she was just like, here's the information in case you can't, I can't give it to you later. Yes. It was amazing. It was, yeah. It was amazing.

I also think I read in an article that the cop said to her, like something like, where's your buddy or do you know where your buddy is? Which is her boyfriend who was murdered, which I just hated that. I don't know why. And maybe the phrasing sounded differently and I don't. Yeah. I'm just judging the written word, but I just hated that. It's like, she's not a child.

It's not her buddy. It's not a buddy system. Yeah. Over here. But it's probably just him trying to be like, I'm your friend distancing. Everything's okay. Yeah. Like low key.

I like to be judgy. Let's see. Before we get into that, I wanted to, I wanted to plug the animating podcasts Twitter, which I think is a new Twitter because I don't have a lot of followers yet, that they, I just, they go to animating podcasts on Twitter. There's one of our podcasts, short little clip that just brought me so much joy and happiness. It's so hilarious.

It's so hilarious. It's amazingly done for, especially as fast as we talk and as like talking over, like kind of overlapped where that could not have been easy. Even like they had my, I went, mmm, I just made a noise and it was this perfect. It's just this hilarious cartoon, Steven's in it, Narwhals are in it, spoiler alert. It's just like, they took a clip from her podcast of us speaking and made it animated. It was very exciting. It's like, it was a real honor, but there's also just like kind of cool.

So talented. And also I liked that they, it started me talking to you and pointing at you, which is so mean. How did they know? I don't know. And it looked just like us. It did. And Steven.

Oh my God. When it panned over to Steven, I laughed out loud for it. It was such a great job. So great job. The animating podcast. They do it for other podcasts, go on to their feed. Fucking best. It's very cool.

And thank you guys for picking us. Yes. Um, Steven had a kitten named after him. Congratulations. I, I think I cried a little bit. Oh, they found him in the backyard, right? I couldn't think of a higher, yeah, they found, yeah, I couldn't think of like a, I don't know.

It's a huge compliment. Yeah. I mean, it just, I don't, yeah, it just means a lot. It's really cool. So the kitten's name is Steven Ray Morris, kitten's name is kitten Ray, kitty Ray Morris. But they're calling it Morris, which I just think is so perfect. That's very cute. Kitty Ray Morris.

It's just so cute. It's a little tiny. It's a little baby. I don't know. What color? It's like a tabby, not UL, it's like a tabby, like a striped, like brown and gray kind of thing. It's just so cute.

Kind of looks like my cat growing up. So. That's awesome. Congratulations. Yeah, congratulations. That means we don't have to pay you this month, right? Yep. Because the cat got...

That's right. Right? You got cat payments. Yeah. Going towards the cat. Yeah. It's going towards the cat. I've been asking and asking for us to please talk about it.

And today, on my car ride over, somebody... I checked my Twitter and somebody was like, are you guys ever going to talk about it? And in all caps, oh no, they said, have you guys... So I bet they were asking in a very polite way of like, did I miss it? Have you guys talked about this yet? And just in all caps, I wrote, not yet. Let's never talk about it. Let's bring it up every time.

Let's move on right now and just never... We'll bring it up every episode. So rude. It's time. It's finally time. It's here it is. Mommy dead and dearest. It was good.

Moving on. I finally... I finally watched it. I was the one hanging us up because I didn't watch it for so long and I just watched it like three hours ago. Really? Yeah. Nice.

I caught up. I loved it. It's so good. It was amazing and it's funny because I thought after watching... Since I watched the Keepers first, I was like, oh, that's like a Netflix series and it's this eight part thing and whatever. I thought it was really well done and also I am now so fascinated with Gypsy. Dude.

It's like I don't... When they were talking about the fact that she was raised by this con woman manipulator and so that's all she knows. Can you imagine? I'm not the hugest fan of the baby voice and that kind of like the giggly baby voice which she was forced to... Her mother forced her to have that personality and to have that kind of like, I'm just a little baby.

Well, I'm not definitely an annual batch for this. Not a psychologist. Okay. But... Wait, are you a psychiatrist though? Yeah. You want some pills? Yeah.

Adderall all around. But I heard from someone a long time ago that when older adults, women have that baby voice, it's because they experienced trauma as a kid and never got past it. So they sound the same as they did back then. Right. That sounds cool, right? Yes. Let's say it's real.

Well, I've heard the same thing. Okay. Yeah. Good. Yeah, man. She's being interviewed from prison? Yeah. It's just crazy.

I can't imagine what her inner life is like. And I wanted to be mad at that dad so bad, but like... The dad and the stepmom. But you're only seeing it through, I feel like if the mom was still alive and she was putting in her two cents, you'd be like, oh yeah, I would have moved seven states away. Even the little clips that they had of her were frightening. Yeah. Like she is a frightening, creepy woman.

But like, okay, the dad, while hot, wasn't very smart. So I feel like he was just manipulated and conned too, clearly. For sure. Even that his, her parents were like, yeah, we hadn't, like they were conned. Yes. Well, and also when it's that, um, you know that she is either, she has some personality disorder. Definitely.

I won't, I won't, even though all I want to do is say which one it is, I won't. Well, I mean, if you have munchhouses by proxy, which means you're willing to hurt your child to get attention. Sociopath. You're a sociopath. Right. Ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding.

Oh, that's the one I know. Um, but also maybe even, maybe even a psychopath. Yeah. Somebody tweeted and said, psychopaths can't feel anxiety, which would, did you see that? I saw that. That was so cool. Yes. Because, so they never get nervous, so no matter what they do or who they're lying to

or what they're doing, they will never have that, like you'll never see the twitch in their eye of like, or then like burst out in a rate, like, cause anxiety is nervousness. Yeah. And, um, and anticipation of a situation or anticipation of something happening. Yeah. So thank God I'm clearly not a fucking sociopath. What is it? Psychopath?

Yes. We know you're, at least we know you're not a psychopath. Clearly, clearly based on my pharmaceutical history, uh, clearly not a psychopath. But I mean, yeah, the idea, cause that, like going through, cause I kept going when they would say, and then she had this surgery, it's like, how the fuck did it get to the point where she's having surgery? Dude, those doctors, man, those, I mean, I don't know, I know that they moved around a lot of doctors once they got suspicious of it.

And she's so manipulative. And they wanted to believe her. Why would you not believe her? I'm not a sick child. But I feel like the first, I feel like always in a, in a pediatrician's mind should be this could possibly be, it has to be there. Everyone knows what it is. But she's inducing with medicines, right?

So she's like, oh, she has this thing. Then she's giving her medicine that's giving her the reaction that's making her. Clearly this woman is smart and knows a little bit about medicine in some ways. I mean, when they open the medicine cabinet, no, the medicine closet. Closet. Also, the pictures around the house, from around the house where there's just like brand new Disney slippers everywhere where it's like Disney thing was creepy as fuck. Everything's pink and Disney and creepy.

And so she's kind of a hoarder. She's kind of like this, like put on these slippers. It's just, yeah, it's the creepiest, weirdest. Did you see there was a girl on Twitter who was who like tagged us and was like, I just realized that I have a photo of them with them. It's one of the, it's a girl who listens. She like worked for Ronald McDonald House or something. Oh, that's right.

And she's in a photo, like a photo op with them. Yes. Smiling. Yes. Honey, you win. You won that. And also, she thinks she has her arm around an eight year old and the girl's fucking 18. That part of it.

Also because Gypsy's eyes are like a little close together and a little crossed and her teeth like stuck straight out, which I'm sure is from being poisoned all their life. I said like leukemia medication will like make your teeth fall out of your fucking head. So she kind of has the look about her where it's like something could be wrong. And then what mother brings her baby in and is like, you know, Oh, Stephen has it. Cute. What's her name? Let's give her Brianne is the one who sent us the picture.

And it's, it's amazing. Also, when you look at this mother, you look at a person who used it like in the beginning when they have her the pageant. She was like, remember, she was Miss Miss River Queen or something. Yeah, that was weird to me too. Where it's like, she clearly gave a gave a big shit about the way she looked. Yes. And it's almost like she had this other project now.

And so she kind of let it go. Yes. She was living vicariously through her daughter's illness. So she was, she was eliciting that exact like she wanted pity sympathy. She wanted like an emotional connection, but she didn't believe she could have it the way she looked on her own merit. Brianne, if it's cool with you, we're going to post this on Instagram. Stephen, will you post this on Instagram because you know, I fucking never will.

Thank you. It's such a good picture. The other show that I want to talk about, I don't know if you've watched it, but I randomly watched it and you have to and everyone has, especially if you're into fucking sociopaths, which who isn't the mate, the Bernie Madoff eventary with fucking Robert De Niro is running made up. Gore is so good. Oh, okay.

I know. I'm obsessed with the Bernie Madoff case anyways. And I know it's not murder and all this shit, but he's a sociopath. Yes. And so it's really interesting the way they kind of show. It's just such a tragic story. He might even be a psychopath too. Yeah.

And yeah, it's so good. Oh, and then it's, um, what's her beautiful face as the wife? Uh, what's her name? Um, Michelle Pfeiffer. Oh, yeah. She's great. Oh my God. It's really fucking good.

It's really fucking good. Cool. Um, and that's it for me. That's it for me. Let's get out of here. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Go. Bye. Bye.

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Goodbye. Hey, I'm Arisha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast, Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen.

Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva, Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched but her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy

and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path. Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Okay. Oh yeah. Who goes, should we, should we talk about murder? Yeah, let's do it.

Okay. Me, Steven? It's all you. All right. Karen, you love, you love cults. Oh, fuck, yes or no. Yes. Yes or no.

Should I lean all the way back and stick my feet up in there and just listen up because this is my favorite topic. Get comfy, girl. Actually, I found, yeah. Night night, Karen. Karen leaping. You found what?

There was one cult that I wanted to do and then I don't know why I never did it, but then I was just like, what are other, cause I'm not a big cult. I mean, I love Jamestown, obviously. Jonestown. Jamestown? Clearly I'm a big fan.

I love Jamestown. It's Jamestown. Jamestown? That's actually like a really nice little retreat. It's a camp for children with issues. I believe Jamestown is like the first settlement in the colonies. Right.

I definitely could be wrong because I can't remember high school at all. So I wasn't in no way laughing at you for that part, but I do love, I love the old joke of, I'm a huge fan of this and then save it differently. That's a, always go with that, pretend you did it on purpose. I love it. Listen, when I get shit wrong, I think it's hilarious.

Jonestown is, I love it too, obviously, because it came out of San Francisco. It's like when it can be, I mean, that's as a hometown, it's just so epic. Just the amount of people who actually killed themselves is epic. Like I looked up Heaven's Gate, which I thought was really fascinating.

That's a good one. It's just fucking cool. Heaven's Gate is so crazy too because it's so sinister and yet dull. That's the weirdest part about it. It's like, we think we're gonna go to a planet or a spaceship or whatever. We like computers and we want to be androgynous

and then we kill ourselves the end. There's no blood, there's no... I think they killed some people. Heaven's Gate? Yeah, who like left the thing. Oh yeah? Yeah, I'll have to do it sometime. I really want to do Waco because I think

it's way more complicated. I just, I kind of don't want to touch it because it's, I think it's pretty fucking inflammatory. Yeah, literally. And it was like... Oh, that was... No, it is. You're right because I think the story

everybody got initially, it was like these lunatics and then it was like... And it was a place on fire and it's like, I don't think they did. Yeah, there was children in there. Yeah, there was children in there. You weren't letting them come out. Yeah, there was a lot to it.

I think, didn't Last Pal of Custom on the Left do a Waco? I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did it beautifully. Okay, anyhow. This is the Fall River's cult murder. Ooh. Ooh, had never heard of it. Never heard of it.

Okay. An hour outside of Boston, the town of Fall River's, Massachusetts. Got that one right. In the 1970s, there was a crazy fucking recession. They had the gas shortage. You had to wait in line. What was it?

You could only get gas on certain days depending on when your license plate ended and what I remember. So it was like odd days, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I mean, odd numbers, Monday, whatever. I remember waiting in line with my dad at the... I believe it is now a shell on Petaluma Boulevard South. What was it?

Gas and go or something? It was a... Something good. I can't remember what it was, but it was like we were out in the street, like out in the different street, waiting for it to get into the gas station. I've done that at Costco before, but not...

Yeah. Think of that, but everyone's broken out of a job, right? Yes, pre-Cosco, the idea of even buying wholesale was like inane. Yeah, everyone was broke. Yeah. So 1970s, Fall River Rivers is hit super fucking hard. Factories closed, buildings abandoned,

all that stuff, so like Main Street is empty, which just led to a crazy CD underground of drugs and sex working to flourish. Yeah. So the first victim of the Fall River murders, can you Stephen, can you look up if it's Fall River or Falk River's? I don't want to get punched in the face for this.

Don't edit this out either. I just want everyone to know that I'm crossing my eyes and dotting my T's. I don't want to get punched in the face. These have gotten kind of intense over here. I know. In my favorite murder, we've been threatened because we don't know state abbreviations.

Is there an S or is there not an S? The Worchester people have come after us. The Worchester... There's no S, it's Fall River. Okay, so everyone calm down. Got this right, because I've written it both ways. Okay, the first victim of the Fall River murders is... Wait, Fall River's or Falls River?

Oh, shit. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Fuck. You know what I'm going to say both ways? No. Falls River's murders, it gets sad now, so let's... Okay, sorry. Be cool.

17-year-old Runaway Doreen Levec, she had escaped her new Bedford Foster home and she got out of there and went to Fall River and turned to sex work to survive. 17-years-old. Jesus. And also fucking every street you hear about foster homes. Obviously, there are good foster parents out there

and all that, blah, blah, blah. But man, oh man, like I have a friend who grew up in several foster homes and it's just like one horrible story after the other. It's just that thing of like, well, can you imagine if working on the street in sex work is the better alternative than living with your foster family?

Yeah, that's... Like that, you can imagine what that must be like. Horrible. Not that there aren't great foster parents out there. In fact, I want to be one one day, but not in the 70s, there wasn't. Okay, so her body was found on October 13th, 1979 under the bleachers at the local high school.

Yeah. Her wrists had been bound with fishing line and she had been stabbed in the head several times and her face had been beaten so bad that she was unrecognizable. Then a month after she had been found, a man named Andy Maltias goes to the Fall River police station.

He wants to file a missing persons report for his girlfriend. Uh-huh. They won't do it. Fucking, there's a twist. Okay. A 22 year old sex worker, that's who she is, Barbara Raposa.

He tells her that he's scared for her safety and then he starts to randomly mumble something about a satanic cult. And he says he has information relating to the other murder of Doreen Lavec. Whoa. Yeah. So he is a very mentally unstable creep.

He's a pedophile, a sex sadist and a violent rapist. And when he's questioned by the police, he told them that there was a satanic cult operating within the Fall River area and the sex worker community. So that whole community of drug addicts and sex workers. Jesus Christ. Our fucking satanists.

And this is during the satanic panic. Remember that? Yeah. Which is like the stupidest thing, but then there were satanists. Who knew? Well also, it's a violent rapist reporting. Like how bad does it have to be?

Once again, that's just crazy where it's like I'm the worst person and I'm gonna go to the police because this is this bad. I'm so worried about my girlfriend. And yeah. So, okay. Then Karen Marsden.

She's a 20 year old single mother. She's a drug addict, teenage runaway, or was a teenage runaway. She's also working as a sex worker. She comes forward because she's afraid for her life. She tells the police that the local pimp, Karl Drew, was the ringleader of the satanic cult and that he was responsible for the murders.

The murder, excuse me. She felt that she knew too much and was too inside the close knit circle of the satanic group to remain safe. So she's fucking terrified. The police offer her protective custody for her cooperation, but she denied it. She didn't want it.

Uh-oh. Who knows why? I mean, I'm sure she doesn't trust the cops. And she's a drug addict. You don't make the best fucking decisions when you're on drugs. And also if you're trying to do drugs, you don't want to cop around protecting you.

Right. So you're like, I just need to get high. Yeah. Yeah. So Drew, let's talk about Karl Drew, the woman, the man that she fingered for the murder. Listen. Look.

Listen, you guys said it. I didn't. You guys are gross. Steven, play back that tape. This is a murder podcast. I know. Please. I know it.

All right, Karl Drew, 25 years old. He's from New Hampshire. He'd been raised on a small farm. And the story is that he had a childhood of hard labor and physical abuse. He told a story later of his alcoholic father tying a rope around his ankles and lowering him down a well to remove a cluster of dead rats.

Oh no. Yeah. You can face to face with that shit. And also fucking leave him there. You know what? Why can't they be in the well? They'll just, what's it called when things, they'll degrade.

Yeah. Totally. Leave him in the well. How about you pour some goddamn battery acid down that well? And your kid? Yeah, well, in addition, he lived on the farm. So he was taught to butcher livestock

and he got the job of cleaning the farm slaughter pit. Again, send that kid in there. Dang. He had a way through rotting carcasses in order to separate the hides and hooves for rendering, which you know, all of that just smelled so horrific. I mean, and you would smell like that for days. For days.

Well, this is, this is like if I went with Paltrow and I was like, it was hard for me too. I made bone broth recently. Oh, no. I know. See, even cut that out. No, no, no. I'll say it, say it.

Well, you have to, you have to boil the marrow bones for like 48 hours and it just gets this smell. Yeah. That is so horrific and not good. Yeah. Did that smell like linger? Oh yeah. Yeah.

So then when I ever, like I can't drink it now because it's so disgusting. Listen. You have to have somebody else make your bone broth. You buy it. I know it's expensive. Yeah. I'm going with Paltrow. But you guys, look it up.

You got gut issues? Bone broth. It's really good for you. Anyways. Ba, ba, ba, ba. Where was I? At 14, he runs away to Fall River. He eventually becomes a pimp and he's a Satanist

and he uses Satanism to terrify the sex workers who worked for him. Yeah. He had a felony record, convictions for assault, weapons, possession and armed robbery. So he's a real great dude. He claims later to be the son of Satan. Okay.

Which like, who knows? Did he, did Satan have kids? Oh, I wonder. Yeah, I do too. Like did they change, did Satan change diapers? I mean. But he wasn't a good father was he? Like she, the wife woke up and was like,

it's your turn. It's your turn. And he's like, no. Yeah. I'm like, you're a fucking Satan. Yeah. I have to do it again. Yeah.

The son of Satan. Yeah. Okay. Come on. Um, I mean, most people claim to be Satan. Right. Isn't that more of the thing? Yeah.

Okay. It doesn't matter. Yeah. He makes the sex workers participate in his animal sacrifices and tells them that the same thing would happen to them if they disobeyed him. So he wasn't one of those nice pimps

that everyone talks about. Or nice Satanists. Or nice Satanists. There are nice ones. I mean, Satanists, that's fine. I mean, whatever. Yeah. They're chilled out.

Uh, it seems just like a tool to control people. It's just using fear. Like this is the thing you're scared of. Yeah. I'll use the symbol. Yeah. And it'll control your behavior. And I'm on all the math.

All the fucking like Fall River math, which is probably not. No, that's the good stuff. Yeah. No offense to them, but, so the Fall River cult, they had like maybe up to 10 members. They're all associated with the Fall River sex trade.

So between 1979 and 1980, they held a bunch of ceremonies deep in the local woods, which sounds creepy. And during the Sances, this guy Carl Drew would speak in different, a different voice and in different languages. And everyone who had been there was like, no, he, it wasn't Jibberish.

He was speaking another language. Wow. Which is like, all right. Did he know Spanish? Yeah. Had he gotten the Rosetta Stone? Listen. MCD.

I know Pig Latin. That doesn't mean I'm speaking in another language. And we, you and I speak in a different voice whenever we do fucking ads. That's right. So. You can do lots of voices. I'm not, color me not impressed with this.

Carl. Carl. Carl, you fucking nerd. Carl. He's still alive. So let's see. Okay. Steven, edit that out.

For sure. Don't edit this whole story up. I forgot to mention he's still alive. Okay. First the rituals involved sex and drugs, but then things took a turn when he was like, human sacrifice time. Oh no.

No. Okay. The second victim is Barbara Raposa, who's 22, another known sex worker. Her body's discovered by, oh, here's horrible. A man is out walking his dog in the forest. It's a beagle. Picture it.

Yes. He, his dog starts sniffing around and like, starts to kind of chomp on something. And he thinks it's just an animal because she was so unrecognizable that he didn't realize it was a human. Was the full body or just a part? I think it was a full body.

Oh man. But in the bushes, you know what I mean? Yes. So that poor dog and that poor man, do you think that dog, he ever let the dog lick him on the face again? I think he probably put that dog down. Yeah.

Once I get a taste. It's so dark. I know. But it really is not to be hacky and say the same thing we say all the time. But it's like, what is, I understand there's a benefit of going into the forest if you have a large group and you're there

to really hike it up and be a team or whatever. Walking alone with your dog in the forest, I feel like there's only a couple things that can happen to you and they're bad. Like your dog doesn't care if it's on the forest or a sidewalk of a fucking suburb. Right. Why, it's like not that your dog's more stoked

when he goes into the, why are you? And then at the same time, I have to be totally honest and say, I'm jealous of that guy. Because he gets to do that? Because it's just that moment must have been horrifying and like just, it's just a seminal moment. It's a watershed moment.

I wonder, I wonder, I don't ever want to know. I wonder, here's what I wonder, are seminal and watershed synonyms or did I just say two different things? Seminal is like, yeah, no, but they're, yeah, they're like explaining a thing. A defining moment, right? You just said it in better words than defining.

Sometimes I just pick a word out and say it, whatever my brain offers. You sounded like a f-f-f-f-f-saurus. Jesus, I can't say the-saurus. Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, she had been, so Barbara Raposa, she's been badly, okay, she's got her hands bound.

She's face down, she's on a flat stone that resembles an altar. She had been so badly beaten again that her skull was crushed. There were stab wounds to her head again, and yeah. So then on February 1980, the cult's third victim was killed. This is 22-year-old, who you may remember her name,

Karen Marston. Oh no. The woman who had gone in because she was afraid, so. Oh no, I'm sorry, I had immediately assumed it was the missing woman, but this is the one who fucking showed up herself. Yeah, the one who went in, she's the 20-year-old single mother drug addict,

and she feared for her life. She's the one who came in and said no thank you to victim's protection. Ugh. So she is the 20, she's the one who comes forward. So she had been present, it turns out, at that first murder of Doreen Lavec.

So she had been there, so that's why she was afraid. Yeah. And it terrified her so much that that's why she went to the police. And Carl, what's his last name? Drew found out about it.

Yeah. So her head was beaten down with a rock. Then, according to the story, Drew, then broke her neck with his bare hands. And according to someone else who had been there, it was a cult devotee, devotee, devotee. Devotee, I believe.

She was devoted. And sex worker, she's 17-year-old Robin Murphy. And she was there, and according to her, Drew handed her a knife and ordered her to slit Karen's throat. Whoa.

So then he cut an X into Karen's chest. Do you want me to say her last name instead of Karen? No, it's fine. Okay. And he used the blood to put an X on this Robin Murphy's forehead. And then they played around with this head. Ugh.

Yeah. Drugs, drugs, drugs. That's all I can think. Can you imagine not even just the detachment of being able to kill someone, but then to have a human head in front of you and not, like, I feel like I would pass the fuck out seeing that.

Of course you would. You would be in total shock. I mean, you would be, it's horrifying. Well, clearly, like, if I see someone get hurt, I am empathetic because I understand what getting hurt is and I see it and I can identify with it. So, like... You're really underlining this point

that you're not a sociopath. So I'm a really good... Yawn right now. Yawn. I'll fucking yawn, too. See? In case you're a new listener, that's the test of a sociopath.

If you yawn and the person doesn't yawn, too, then they don't have empathy for you. It's just this automatic response. No, I mean, but I understand you're saying it's just so gross even that we're talking about it much less to witness it, be a part of it, take part in it. It just defies logic. And the fact that not only is there one person who does it,

but you'll know someone else who's cool with it, too. Like, the fact that there can be two people, because I feel like that'd be one in a million people. Yeah. But I guess they all live in Fall River. Doot, doot, doot. Okay. Uh, so only...

Oh, wait, Telegram just arrived. It's everyone who lives in Fall River. They're super pissed at us. They're suing us for defamation. They said Twitter's not fast enough. We needed to let you know how livid we are. It's actually, it's a clown and it's a singing Telegram. But he's got a bloody X on his head.

Yeah. Don't worry about it. So, only her school was ever found. And the reason they found it is because she had had X-rays of her head, which I'm like, they said she had sinus issues? Oh, so there was something to compare it. Like, they knew who it was. Yeah.

Got it. Which is crazy. So, finally, a break comes in the case. They, the police had wiretapped the phone, hoping that they would find Carl Drew speaking about the murders, but it's not him. It's the 17-year-old girlfriend, Robin Murphy. And she is a sex worker and aspiring pimp.

So, she's talking and it turns out that she was saying that 25-year-old Drew was not the ringleader, but that she was, that Rob, 17-year-old Robin Murphy is. Huh. Robin Murphy contacts police and she offers to testify against Andy Maltias, remember the guy who went in because he was worried about his girlfriend. Yeah.

As a witness to the murder of his girlfriend. So, he killed his girlfriend and then went looking for her, is her story. Oh, like, so it was a setup, basically. Yeah. He was trying to make himself look innocent. Maybe, unless Robin's lying. Okay.

She also claimed to be present for the Doreen Lavec murder, and she agreed to turn state's evidence in that case. She was like, I'll tell you everything. In exchange, she gets a deal where she's placed in protective custody and she gets immunity in both murders. That they didn't do that. Even though she was there for them. And, yeah.

And they don't know if she was involved. Yeah. I mean, that seems like a dream. Like, that's basically her going, here's what I wish I could. Yeah. And they're like, granted. Yeah.

So, the story she gave police was that Andy Maltias killed his girlfriend, Barbara Raposa, because he found out that she had been cheating on him with another man. So, he goes to trial first and based mostly on the testimony of Robin Murphy in January 1981. He's convicted of the first degree murder of Barbara Raposa. Given a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

And he's later considered to be a suspect in a few other unsolved area rapes, stating back to the early 70s, but no additional charges are ever brought against him. He, and then later he's found to be clinically insane, but they still didn't overturn the verdict or give him a new trial or anything like that. But he ended up dying of cancer in 1998.

Wow. In prison. Wow. So, then Robin is allowed to plead to the lesser charge of second degree murder in exchange for her testimony against everyone. And they keep the immunity deal that she had going. And she received no additional charges

in connection with either of the other two murders. So, she's only getting charged with the last murder of Karen. So, basically it was like whoever runs forward first and says, I will like snitch on everybody else. Is the person who gets the deal? I think so. And like, I'll hear about pleadios

where they're like, they agree that, you know, the attorneys or whatever, I don't know, they agree to the terms of taking a plea only if the information matches up. Yeah. So, if they end up, they would agree to them if this thing is the case, is the thing is true, which we should totally have guy back on

and ask him about. Cause that seems much more, you know, what's the word? Makes much more sense than just being like, okay, anything you say. No, no, I think, isn't that always the rule that the thing that you say has to then basically solve the crime and be the thing that convicts the person.

Right. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that, yeah, we should definitely have guy back on. Or like saying that their involvement is this, that has to be true. You know what I mean? Like, I'll testify, here is my involvement, but if later it turns out

that that involvement isn't true, that you lied about it, I don't know, what's this guy? No, it wouldn't be that because that's like, then they would be planning for the person to lie, which they could find anything to lie. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Okay.

I mean, what a boring part of a show where we're like, we don't know anything about the law, but let's say what we feel. Definitely. Let's talk about it. It's me going, I don't think it's that, but not based on anything other than my, just my gut. I didn't go to law school.

Yes. But I bet there's a really simple explanation to this. Let's keep talking. Listen, I'm a psychiatrist. I'm a lawyer. And a psychologist. I'm a psychologist. It's great.

I'm a cat. I'm also a cat. Okay. Okay. So this chick, Murphy, received her name, what was her name again? Robin Murphy's, she received a life sentence with the possibility of parole.

She spends 24 years in jail in prison, and then she's released on June 10th, 2004. But thank God she violated her parole and she goes to prison seven years later. She's currently serving her time in a maximum security prison in Massachusetts. And then in 84, she recants the entire story. She says, none of it is true.

She's trying to get a new trial. It doesn't happen. She's eligible for parole in March, 2017, which if you'll look at your calendar was like two months ago and they're reviewing it right now. Hold on. So in saying that the whole story is not true, is what she's saying that the satanic cult parts not true,

or she's saying that her part in the murder isn't true? I think what she's saying is that the people she is fingering for the crime didn't actually do it. Wow. She doesn't, it's not true. Got it. I don't know exactly if she gave an alternative story. I couldn't find anything on that.

So, Carl Davis, who's a different Carl, who's involved with the slaughter, with the murder of Karen Marston, he doesn't ever stand trial for it. In the following year, he was arrested for assaulting a woman named Sonny Sparta. And according to the statement by Carl Drew, the other guy on his, wait for it, personal blog,

who he's still in prison. He's a blogger? Yeah. It's said that Carl Davis has beat up this three month pregnant woman, Sonny, stabbed her in the head with a knife, and only because she had information implicating him, Carl Davis, and the woman Robin,

and that Carl Drew had nothing to do with it, but she was too scared, this woman Sonny was then too scared to testify. Jesus, that just keeps happening with these people. Yeah. So there's some really convoluted crazy shit going on. It kind of makes sense though, that they wouldn't be involving

this truly satanic, scariest person. Well, if he's not in prison. Yeah. Right. It's almost like that usually happens where they manipulate everybody into doing what they want. Yeah. The whole time, and then everyone else takes the fall.

Well, they're proving that, it's proven a couple of times that they kill people who snitch. Yes. And if Carl Drew is the killer, then they could talk, but, because he's locked up, but if the dude who actually did it isn't locked up, I don't know.

Listen. That really seemed like it was going somewhere. It was. You get it. Like, I don't even need to finish it. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, I'm just talking. So, okay, so for that stabbing,

he served seven years and he's now free. This guy, Carl Davis. Fuck. Okay, getting to the end. There's a bunch of bad Carl's in that area. Careful. Bad Carl. So many bad Carl's.

All right, so the case of the first chick, Doreen Lavec, never goes to trial because the district attorney is like, it would cost too much and it would be futile because he already has, Carl Drew already has a life sentence. So what's the point? Well, it's called justice.

I can't work out the word. All the charges against. Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. Okay, anyways. Okay, so people still think that the actual ringleader and the murder isn't Carl Drew, but is Robin. The 17 year old wannabe pimp girl.

Well, according to this blog that he writes, which I read it and it's actually, it's pretty, it's good. It's like he's, he is pissed off about his trial. He like goes down the breakthrough of what happened and all this like prosecutor intimidation to the witnesses to testify against him. And he says that her IQ was 138.

She was incredibly smart and manipulative. And the attorneys don't want to admit that they got fooled by a 17 year old girl, apparently. Just real quick. So do you think Robin and Carl like went to the IQ place one day together and just like took some tests and were like, oh my God, what'd you get?

What'd you get? Oh my God, what'd you get? They just went online and did one of those like, take the IQ test and have to put your email address in. So it's so annoying to get it, you know those. And like you've gone to the end of it and you don't want to give them your email address, but like. But you have to find out.

You went, you took 10 minutes out of here. Yeah. When you were supposed to be working. I just love that he had her IQ right there on hand. Well, he said that they gave it to her when she went into prison, which I don't think they do. How would he know that? Good question.

Just because he has a blog, let's not give him all this credit, all of a sudden he's the greatest. I think every blogger is the greatest. You know that about me. The minute I find out someone has a blog, I'm like. You relate because you're also a blogger. Yeah. They must be really smart.

Oh my God, my kindred, my kind. My kind. My people. So they think that Robin acted alone or at least the mastermind and that Drew is actually totally innocent. But he's convicted of first degree murder and for Karen's murder and serving life in Massachusetts. No possibility of parole.

So Robin ends up recanting her statement. She claims she'd lied about the whole thing and that Carl Drew wasn't even involved. She says he wasn't even involved. And three witnesses come forward who had testified against him that they had been pressured by the prosecution to testify and that they actually wanted to testify for him. But they got too scared and didn't.

And so sorry. So then according to that story, it's the other bad Carl? It's a mystery. It's maybe Robin and this other Carl. Huna, I don't know exactly. But Robin is definitely a mastermind, isn't it? And so who knows who else she worked with. That's kind of an amazing movie right there.

You get it at one of those fanning girls, past them. Dakota, who else is there? There's Dakota. L. There's L. I'm sure there's others. So talented. Back at the house.

Yeah, they have to lose a lot of weight. So they get an Academy Award for it. Is that what they get, Emmy? Yeah, if we make it for TV, if it's an HBO thing, then I would definitely be an Emmy. Definitely. But that idea is just amazing. Who done it?

Who done it? Was it a 17-year-old running the whole show? Or was it the 25-year-old pimp who had to wade through carcasses of animals? See, yoy. Also, it's just so fascinating. I would love to know how many people were at those. Was it just a straight-up we took her into the woods

and killed her? Or did they go ceremonial? And was it this big, creepy thing? It just seems like now I really want to know what the actual story is. Was it like, were they taking advantage of Satanic Panic and putting it all under that? Yeah.

Like, what the hell? I just can't imagine someone really believing in Satan. Like, he never, well, he never answered back to the Catholic Church. I was going to be like, it's not like you can believe in it, because he talks to you. But then I'm like, oh, that's what people think about Jesus and God.

I mean, in a lot of things. Yeah, unicorns. Blogs. Look, he's talking to me. Well, the happy ending of the story is that he has a blog. And anyone can. And that blogs forgive you no matter what you do.

Listen, go to Blogspot to start yourself a URL. What about Angel Fire? Isn't that one? What's that? Wasn't that a Blogspot? What is it? It's Steven. Steven, what's Angel Fire?

Yeah, it was a blog website. It's shut down, but it's all archives. So you can still find your old websites. Just like a hosting site. It's a hosting program. Yeah, like Blogspot. That was the first my friend had a blog where she would just rant and talk full shit constantly.

And it was like bloodybluhangelfire.net, or whatever it was. And I just thought it was I was so new. And it was the beginning of the internet that I thought Angel Fire was where all blogs took place. I was like, oh, Angel Fire, that's amazing. And then later on when that didn't exist anymore, I was like, oh, there's blogs other places?

I just thought it was that one spot. Yeah. Well, and then Blogspot became that one spot. They got a little smarter. They went secular with it. They knew it don't involve angels in this. Or fire. Sounds satanic.

Yeah, that whole concept is a bit much. It's a bit beyond. We don't even believe that. And we believe in blogs. They're not true. What if blogs were a myth? Blogs were like, you know, Corinne's like, I don't think they ever existed.

And someone's like, yes, they did. There's proof. I could print it up and they're like, yeah, right? Yeah. I believe in blogs. My blog is fucking gone from the internet, so nobody tried to find it, by the way. Oh, you erased it?

I took it down because I read it recently, and I was like, oh, my god. I was like, oh, my god, OK. Was it just like your diary, like your daily thoughts? No, just give me a taste of it. OK. Like I would write really lovely, flourishing, gorgeous tales of, you know, my life.

But then one of them was about my car getting broken into. Oh. Were you there, Steven? No. Yeah, it was just like, it was just such a. Were you there in the 90s with me, Steven? Yeah. Steven, you were there at my blog.

I meant like, I did a reading recently on Red Wing, because it was so stupid. Oh, oh. Yeah, it was like a 27-year-old girl who wanted to sound fucking, what's the word, worldly. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah.

Stop it, 27-year-olds. I mean, that's what 27-year-olds were built for. That's what the blogs were built for, is a 27-year-old. It's my son. Yeah. That's amazing. Enough about me. Let's talk about murder.

Kat, I wish, I guess, I bet you that such a frustrating part of being a part of the legal system is so much lying. Like you just are like, we have this whole thing set up, and you promised me it was the truth. Now we're going with this story. Yeah. And then four years later, you're like, I lied about all of it.

It's like, we went off of that entire thing. Maddening. Wouldn't it be great if people stopped lying? I mean, if they found in the same way as you can get a fingerprint analyzed, you can somehow accurately get a lie detector. Like a lie detector that's not, those don't work, though. They're 50-50.

I wonder if people, if they came up with it, they're like a truth serum powder. Well, they can inject you with truth serum, but it doesn't necessarily mean you will tell the truth. And if you're. I don't know a lot about that. What's that? I don't know a lot about that.

About truth serum? I think it's like a, it chills you out. You know what? Why am I talking right now? You tell us doctors and chemists. I'll tell you. Thank you so much. I want to say it's sodium pentothal,

but I think that's poison. No, no, I think it is sodium pentothal. Did I get that? Steven, do you think it is? Oh my God, I'm going to be so impressed with myself. I got that. I think you're right to. Yeah.

I'm fucking. But I think there are people who can beat it, who can game it when they know it's going to happen. Well, when you don't care about anything, you can't do it. You can trick it. Also, I think it's, I think the reason they don't use it more is because they can't just shoot up whoever they want. Yeah, I think I was going to say that it must be against rights

somehow. I bet it is. And I would stop lying. I mean, I'll start with me. What is it, Steven? Sodium pentothal is used to induce coma's anesthesia, euthanasia. Oh, nope.

Yeah, that's the euthanasia. That's a. Oh, no, truth serum. There we go. It's still used in some places as a truth serum to weaken the resolve of a subject and make them more compliant to pressure. It's called wine.

That's right. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say to like six wine coolers. This is what I'm kidding about. Watermelon wave. Bartels and James Strawberry. Strawberry. What was what's that one wine that's like strawberry flavored

wine? What is it called? It's like super cheap and shitty. Blue Nun. No, I don't know what that is. But you'd know it. Thunderbird. No.

I try. No. Someone's yelling it at home. Yeah. Anyways, someone's drinking it at home. Who got a hope? You got a hope. OK, mine this week I picked because I

like doing these ones where I can remember hearing about it or some kind of love this. Right. Some kind of thing where you're like, wait, what was that? Oh, yeah. You get to talk about this. So I had this. I can't remember if whatever I was watching or thinking of.

But it was like, because there was a murder in it, but it was more of a hostage crisis. So this is. Don't scare the shit out of me. The man's name was Murdad Dashdie. And it was the 1990 Berkeley hostage crisis. Do you remember this? No.

1990. You were blogging. No, you were too young back then. I was just called diarying them back then. I was 10 in 1990. So no, I didn't even know how to write yet. Can you write a 10? You could write cursive.

I bet you could write a nice paragraph about what I did this summer with some good $10 words in it. OK, so I was 20. So I was in San Francisco. Oh, so you were fucking there for it. No, sorry. I was in Sacramento. It could have been you.

Yeah, I moved to San Francisco when I was 22. So I was Sacramento. So I wasn't right across the bay, but we were close by. And it was on the news. This was so crazy because when this happened and the news found out about it, they went live on the news. OK, so this is basically what happened. It's September 26, 1990, just before midnight.

And a 29-year-old Iranian male named Murdad Dashdie and his friend decided to go to Henry's public house, which is in the lobby of the Durant Hotel, one block south of the Berkeley campus in Berkeley, California, right across the Bay Bridge from San Francisco. So Murdad Dashdie had told his friend. He went to Berkeley four years earlier. He had graduated with an engineering degree.

And he didn't get a job. Like, he had he came from Iran and obviously was super smart and got into Berkeley, which no one I knew could do. No. And got this engineering degree. But then when he got out, couldn't get a job that was like he didn't get an engineering job. Or he had these dreams of like now in America

and now I'm going to get a really awesome high-paying job. So he couldn't get it. And he started doing handyman work. And it was very much beneath him, but he needed the money. He had also gotten married. I think it was the year before he graduated. And his marriage kind of crumbled. And the more he wasn't finding a job and the less money

they had and stuff, the more controlling he was with his wife and his wife was like, see you later. Money issues. Yes, bad news. So he ends up in this apartment alone. And he was later on the police found out that he was schizophrenic. He was a paranoid schizophrenic.

So he had started to hear voices. But he wasn't. He didn't deal with it in any way. He just was listening to voices, fighting with the voices. He was living in that world. But he didn't ever go get any kind of mental help or medical help for that issue. So that night on December 26th, he tells his friend

he wants to go to a bar where a lot of blonde white women will be. And so his friend decides that they should go to Henry's. And Henry's was this. It was really close to the campus. So a lot of sorority girls and frat boys would go there. And it was just like this super popular bar. Sounds like a blast.

Yeah. Oh, sorry. A lot of this I got from a show that I found online that's an ID channel show called Deadly Demands, Season 1, Episode 5. And they had actually in this show a lot of this live footage that was from KPIX. No way.

I don't know if you remember Channel 5 in San Francisco. No, I was in LA. In the Bay Area. LA. KPIX is the local news, local TV channel. Do you know their jingle? KPIX, no. I could.

Channel 2 was the one we watched the most, which was KTVU. They had a whole song about, yeah, there was only one, two. Was there? That's cute. Isn't that good? There was only one, two. There was only one, two. I fucking love that.

And in the late 70s, early 80s, when the San Francisco Giants only ever lost, they never won a game ever, there was a 15-second promo that they would run during the cartoon time, and after school, like 4 o'clock or whatever. And it was just the most janky early 80s graphics of a baseball player swinging about. But as he swung, it was just flash animation

where the colors changed into like a brown and yellow rainbow. So he would swing, and it'd be like brown, light brown, tan, yellow, orange, or whatever. And the song that played underneath it was, come on, Giants, hang in there. Oh my god. How fucking pathetic is that? That's our new thing, when we're feeling low.

Hang in there. Come on, Georgia, hang in there. My sister and I used to sing it to each other all the time. I love it. I love it, one, because it's fucking hilarious and horrible, two, because you're singing it and you have a great voice. So it's like, it's good. Like, if I tried, it wouldn't be good.

Well, also it's like. And it's so tacky. It's so ugly. Everything's brown. It doesn't. It's brown, and it's the kind of thing like you would never see it these days. Because it's like, no, don't cheer on your losing team

by basically going, don't quit baseball. Yeah, you'll get there. Yeah. Like, don't walk off the field. Yeah. Don't give up. So anyhow. See, I told you it was going to be terrible.

OK. OK, so props to KTVU. But this was KPIX. Totally different channel. So they're in Henry's. They call last call. They're, Doshji and his friend are sitting in the corner. And at one point, his friend goes and goes up to get drinks.

And Doshji goes, hold on a second. I'm going to go out to the car. He goes out to the car, and he comes back with a briefcase. Uh-oh. Yeah. And so last call is called. Everyone's kind of like, they're like wrapping it up. And at one point, Doshji opens the briefcase,

pulls out a semi-automatic, and just starts shooting it into the air. In the bar? In the bar. So there are 67 people in the bar. Holy shit. At the time. And half of them run out.

Then I think they said like eight people were shot in that time. So and then everybody else hits the floor. And kind of when this dust settles, he says, he yells to everybody, if you're hurt, you can leave right now. So. Weird. Yes. So there are like one woman in this and deadly demands.

She got shot eight times, and she didn't even know it. She was just like sitting there. What the fuck? Yes. And because it's an automatic weapon, because we fucking need automatic weapons in this country, so fucking badly. Assault rifles.

Everyone had one. And this guy had many. Yeah, she got shot eight times, and she said, I felt uncomfortable. And then I touched my side, and I was bleeding. So she got up and walked out. What the fuck? She's totally probably.

This is making me feel much better, though. About what? The pain that you probably, I always like think about the pain when you get shot. Yeah. Well, you, I think you go into shock. Like she would go into shock because she didn't get shot. Yeah.

In any, she got, luckily, it was like her side. So she got to leave. And then there was a guy, he shot a guy right in the chest, a student. And two other guys went, can we please bring him outside? Because he can't go outside by himself. And she said, you can, but you have to come back. So they all go outside.

I seriously doubt they came back. Can you imagine? You're like, I'm a man of my word. I'm here. I'm here again. So OK, so there's a cop, a patrol officer that's walking up and down the street. And he's like a half a block away.

He hears gunshots. He thinks it might be firecrackers, but he goes to look and see what it is. And as he gets closer, he sees the people running out of the pub. He realizes then it's gunfire and immediately calls it in. So there's cops and ambulances and everybody on the scene really quickly. Because luckily, someone was right there

like the second it went off. So they have the bar surrounded very quickly. The SWAT team is on site. And so this is the amazing part. So the hurt people leave. He's got everybody else. And he immediately makes everyone that's still in the bar line up against the windows that face the,

there's like a wall of windows that face the street. And he's like, everybody line up against the windows. Therefore, they're blocking the windows from the cops can't see and they can't shoot into the windows. How scary for those people? Yeah. Where's his friend right now? His friend ran out.

OK. Yeah. And his friend ran out. Random cops said his name is this. He has these guns like I didn't know. And he lives up the street. So then immediately the cops get a search warrant and they go into his apartment.

And they start discovering all the things that they eventually find out about him, which is he went to Berkeley. He's basically now living almost in squalor, divorced. And he's written all these letters to the police, to the government, basically saying, you owe me $16 trillion for the psychic services that I've been providing for you.

So he believes that the voices in his head are the American government telling him what to do. And he has been listening and obeying, and now believes he should be compensated for what he's been doing. And it's so insane in this show, they show two hours before he takes this bar hostage. He had called 911 in Berkeley.

And this woman is so calm and trying to get the information out of him. But he's basically saying, in a very calm and rational sounding voice, he's saying, OK, so I just need the police and the government to pay me the money they owe me. Oh my god. Because my telepathy, they've been using it, and they said they were going to pay me, and I need that money.

Did you listen to it? Yes. I thought it was a reenactment, and then realized. Because everyone's so chill. Yes, the woman was so professional, and he was so calm that it was not a reenactment. And it's the kind of thing where if I was a dispatcher, I don't know if I would have stayed on the phone with him

as long as she did because it sounded like bullshit. It went from reasonable to super crazy where you'd go, oh, this is a person playing a prank. It doesn't sound like a crazy person at all. He sounds very reasonable, and he just needs his money. And what he starts telling her is he needs money because he just got this letter saying he has to go to jail. And what had happened, what had happened was he,

I think it was like three weeks before. I can't remember the timeline exactly. But because he didn't have a job, because his wife left him, because he didn't have any money, he had taken his car, driven into San Francisco, and just smashed a bunch of really nice cars with his car. And he got arrested for it. He got caught after having done it.

He basically probably went to like Pacific Heights or Nob Hill or somewhere crazy fancy and just smashed all the Mercedes, like parked on one street. I mean, who wouldn't want to? I bet it felt pretty great. Probably. As revenge. But then here's the problem.

They arrest him. They bring him into the police station, and they do a strip search on him. And for him already being in the mental state that he's in, and also being a practicing Muslim where being naked, like they made him strip naked. And it was incredibly obvious. I mean, it'd be demeaning to anybody.

It doesn't matter what your religion is. But the way they were saying it in this story, it made it sound like it was in a religious way, not very inappropriate for someone. Probably now there's like, nah, I don't know. So that was part of it. So one of his first demands, so what he does is once he gets everyone lined up against the wall,

he first asks, he says, all the pretty blonde women in the bar come and stand in the center. So they do, and he makes them strip. And then there's no, it's not in any of the articles I found, it was definitely not in deadly demand. But I heard about this, it was things that people weren't, that they weren't putting in his paper. But basically after making these women strip,

he made the men in the bar basically sexually assault the women. Oh my god. But no one has, that was in this website I found that's like a police report thing, but they do not go into detail at all. And of course, a lot of the men tried to block his view, so they were pretending to be doing something

that they weren't actually doing. But then apparently there were things where he made them. Oh my god. But I don't know what it is. It's the creepiest part of the story, and it's the part that I remember people talking about the most. Where it was like, what, just person to person. So who knows the urban legend element of it,

because it's so salacious and gross. But also the thing that I heard was that he made somebody assault someone else with a carrot. And he talked about Bugs Bunny a lot. Like it was this, like one of his fixations. But that, to me, that sounds like it could just as much be an urban legend as it could be anything else. That's like totally sounds like crazy.

Also like, when have you seen a carrot in a bar lately? Right. Or did he bring it with him? Because it was part of his weird plan to humiliate. Like, what would humiliate a person the most? Right. I don't know. Any way you slice it, it's hideous and disgusting.

But they barely touch on it in the TV show version. It's just the women standing there stripping and stripping and crying and being humiliated that way. So then the next thing he says is he makes a guy take a barstool and break out a window. And then the guy, he sits down against the wall and squatted down. And he just makes this guy be his voice for him. So the guy, and you see this, they have news footage of this.

Because they went live on KPIX almost immediately. And you see the guy who's like a frat boy from the 80s. He's got like the blunt hair parted on the side and the white shirt or whatever. Did he look scared or was he nervous? Too far away to see. But you can kind of just see that it's like an 80s outfit. And he's basically saying he wants police chief Frank Jordan.

Is that the mayor of the police chief? I think it's the police chief. I have it here somewhere. He wants him to go on the news and take his pants off. He wants him to strip from the waist down and go on live TV. This is some dark mirror shit. Black mirror? Black mirror, yeah.

This is some black mirror shit. But it's basically he wants to humiliate the head of the police department the way he was humiliated. And he wants it to be on TV. Which finally there's a, because I'd only ever heard of those demands that he had and they just made it sound like, can you believe that? And it's like, no, there's fucking backstory to this. He was, there's a reason for it.

There is a logic to it. It's kind of like the center of the whole fucking thing. It really is. And also, why if you smashed your car into things? Why did you have to get strip search? Definitely. I mean, it's almost like, were they, yeah, or were they like, he's clearly on some drugs when he was just schizophrenic?

Or was it that time of like, was it racism? Was it, was it some kind of, what was happening? Definitely. Okay, so it, no, it is Frank Jordan. Frank Jordan was the chief of police. Okay. So anyway, they're like, and they're, he's basically saying he turned on the TV in the bar and he's like, I want to see it happening.

So the, the, it's driving the negotiators crazy because he won't get on the phone and he won't talk himself because he's, he knows if he stands up in front of that window, they're going to shoot him. So he will only talk through a proxy or you know, whatever. So they're, they can't negotiate that way. So they're, they keep saying like, we need more time. He's also demanding, he demanded $16 trillion. He also wanted California, Nevada and Oregon.

Like, because he, he want, he is like, this is what I'm owed. I've done all this work for you. Psychically. Yeah. You owe me this. So anyway, they keep saying we need time or we have to, but that's when the negotiators and the police start to realize this is a very bad situation because we can't give him even some of what he needs. We can't even approximate a negotiation here.

So this is going to go badly. Couldn't they have like lied? Well, but he wanted to see it on the news. He wanted to see it on his TV. Okay. So he wanted to see something actually happening and they're like, there's, there will not be progress here. Right.

It, so that all happens like basically in four hours. So it's now four AM and there's no progress. I mean, he's getting really agitated and he finally says, I guess I'm going to have to shoot somebody. Which one of you is going to be the one that gets shot? Oh my God. And he's looking around this bar and it's, these are college kids. They're all people that are probably the oldest 23.

Yeah. And they're looking at each other and one guy steps forward and says, I'll, you can shoot me. Yep. So then he says, can I go tell them what's about to happen? And the guy says, yes. So he goes to the window and says, I'm about to be, I'm about to be, sorry, I'm about to be executed right now.

And of course the police are like, they don't know what to do because they don't have a clear, they don't have a clear in in any way. And it also was a part of it that the part of that was bad was that it was in this lobby of this hotel. So there's people in the hotel. Holy shit. And it's the middle of the night, but they know they're, they're like time is ticking away because pretty soon, like by 7am, this is a college campus.

They're practically on campus. So like they're not going to be able to keep people from coming closer and closer to the scene. Yeah. So they know they're going to have to do something about it soon. Oh my God. Um, so the guy yells out the window, nobody knows what to do. This is on the news. They have like, they were showing this footage.

The kid walks back, he says to the guy, can I say a prayer? And he, the guy says yes. And so the kid says a prayer. They all are just sitting there like watching someone will close their eyes and then the guy shoots into the ceiling. And so when they, they said, um, these people being interviewed who went through this said, like they heard all the noises that smoke clears and then he's still standing there. So they realized that he's just trying, he's trying to prove that he means business,

but he actually doesn't want to hurt or kill anybody. But he just feels like he's being pushed to the limit. That guy who volunteered, they don't say his name. I couldn't find his name anywhere. I know. Amazing. Martin Hartstark, what is my dad? Oh my God.

What is your family? My dad's like, oh, that was a crazy night at work. Well, I used to go to a co-ed bars sometimes. I took some night classes over at Cal. Yeah. That's what he would call it. Cal, huh? So, so a couple of the women in the show say that they think that actually

made him feel very empowered and made him feel better. So it, it brought the level of tension down a little bit because it was like, because he could choose who's going to kill him or not. Exactly right. And he kind of chose the better thing, but that's also from outside the cops freak out because they, someone, someone yells, I'm about to be executed. And then there's gunshots. So, it's so hard to hear these things and not think of like cell phones.

I know. You know what I mean? Cause you're like, oh, I wonder if someone had their cell phone open. I was talking. It's like, there weren't cell phones. 1990. There was nothing. Yeah.

It's so weird. There's nothing. It was such a bizarrely innocent time. Yeah. In some ways. Yeah. And then also media wise, very stupid because the fact that the news was running it live, like people got to watch it as it happened was very bad.

And it bolstered him probably cause he was like now a big deal and everyone was, let's say that thing of like, don't say the killer's name, say the victim's name is because that's what they want us to be famous. Exactly right. And it gave the police no control, whatever happened and whatever the newscasters decided to talk about was what was happening. So when the newscasters found out that he had been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, they said it, he saw it, then he got all upset.

Totally. Or he got his wife left him or whatever. Yes. He gets upset. He sees it and then he's like, it's more and it's also feeding into his paranoid schizophrenic idea that the government is in his head. All of the things that were happening were feeding into all his worst fears. Wow.

That makes sense. And escalating it. Essentially. Okay. So they put snipers on the roof across the street and at one point they're like, cause they're trying to, you know, now it's four AM, it's been going on. So they decide that the snipers are like, these streetlights are actually compromising our position here.

If he looks out the window, he can see us sitting here. You might freak out. So somebody else decides to shoot out the streetlights. Well, then he hears, Dosty hears that happening outside and gets all agitated. Jesus, that was a bad idea. Yeah. That's when they said he, his mood starts to swing from he's like rage screaming, going crazy to sitting quietly and mumbling to himself for like long periods of time.

At five AM, he tells the bartender, give everybody four beers, everybody drink and have fun. And one of the women being interviewed says, that's when we knew he was going to kill all of us because he basically wanted it all to be okay for us when it happened. He thought like that it was clear that the plan was like, have your last four beers, have your like final hurrah party. Oh my God. And that's when it got super scary. Oh, in that, so he has a briefcase, just for the details, in the briefcase,

he has a large caliber revolver, two handguns, a fully automatic pistol. Oh, sorry. No, the handguns were one was fully automatic and one was semi automatic. And then he has ammunition for all three. So he's just got, it's like they're, he's not going anywhere. He's got a briefcase. Full of stuff as they're watching the news, the news reports that the boy that he shot in the chest died at the hospital.

Oh no. And Dosty starts going crazy, going, I didn't do it. I did not kill him. They're lying. They're, this is the government. They're lying. I didn't do it. And he's loses his shit.

Oh my God. Which I think is another really sad part about it. Because it's like, he went in there, he had this big plan, he was going to, he wanted to defile America's citizens, he wanted to do to America what America was doing to him. But he actually didn't, like actually deep down that, that he wasn't a killer really. Well, he wanted to do that, but he didn't, doesn't sound like, because letting all the people who got hurt go is just such a go get help, you know, it's. Yeah, it's not what like a, you know, psychopath is.

It's not what like a, you know, psychopath would do or a person that's like, I've got this plan and here's my perfect revenge. It's like a person with a serious mental issue who's trying to fix the, the complete abject aspiration of his own life. It's horrifying. So anyway, so. Okay, so he tells one of the female hostages to go into, to see if she can go find, go into the kitchen, which is now dark and find a light switch, like he wanted to go into

the back room for some reason. Well, she goes in there and then sees that there's an exit door and she gets the fuck out. Yeah, I get it. There's a police and like reports everything that's going on and updates everything and then another at around 4am, another female hostage, she had moved into and hid in the dining room area and she managed to open like an accordion style door that led to the hotel lobby.

So she got out too. So then around 6.15 in the morning, the rear kitchen door opens again and a third female hostage who was sent into the kitchen to find a light. He will not learn his lesson. He just wants that light so bad that he's not seeing his mistake. So she gets out too. So now there's 33 people still in the pub with him. Now the problem is again, because it's the 90s, there's no cell phones or anything.

The whole phone system is the hotel's phone system. So it's, you know, that crazy thing of like it's all the lines are connected to the lobby. So it took them that a really long time to just go straight to the pub phone. So they finally start calling the pub phone and he won't answer it and he's saying they're just trying to get to me. They're trying to distract me and just not coincidentally, but by chance or whatever the is that the same? The phone's cord couldn't stretch past the bar.

So when the phone was ringing, he was like, bring it to me, but it couldn't reach where he was. So he would have had to get up and walk to the bar to answer the phone, which he believed was a trick. So he makes a guy, yeah, it's just one more thing where it's like everything's feeding into his paranoia. So he makes a guy get on the phone and again by proxy, they're trying to negotiate, which it doesn't work.

And the guy is demanding yelling stuff and whatever and the proxy is kind of trying to say the calm version of what the guy is saying because he's like, I want $16 trillion for my mental telepathy services. It's all that stuff. So they had basically, they knew they were at an impasse because they weren't going to be able to negotiate with him. There was no, they had done everything that they could in terms of negotiation. So they knew now that the waiting strategy, that part was over because they had to take

some kind of an action. So they decided they were going to do a diversion tactics, which is basically when the SWAT team goes in in two teams and one of the team rolls in like a flash canister and then the other team comes in from the other side. So it's 7.23 in the morning, so they'd been there for fucking almost eight hours. They roll in the flash canister and everyone starts screaming and the cops come in and the second team opens the door and they're like, get out, get out, get out. So some people are running and as he stands up from his place where he'd been like crouched

against the wall and he starts moving toward a booth where he had all these people seated and when the SWAT team saw him moving toward that group of hostages, they shot him. They yelled for him to put the gun down or whatever and he didn't and he kept moving and so they shot him there and then they got the rest of the hostages out and then they got Dashti into an ambulance and he died on the way to the hospital. Yeah. Holy shit. Essentially, the news was using high-power cameras.

They were monitoring police radios. They were seeking public interviews. They were broadcasting detailed and often uncooperated information the entire night and never thinking about what would happen and they actually, I'm not sure if it was KPIX or a different news place, but they reported the SWAT team plan on the news and the only reason Dashti didn't see it is because he had turned it to a different channel at that point. What the fuck?

What the fuck? Because they were just basically, it was almost like having never been in that scenario before, they were like, let's go with the story, let's keep. It's the reason that we are now in this 24-hour news cycle that is captured and poisoned the minds of so many people because the news does it for money and because they keep eyes on the screen and this was almost like one of the first versions of that and the worst versions of it. So anyway, to date, they say this incident is one of the most significant and successful

hostage rescue operations in US history. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing that they were able to do that without anyone else getting hurt. Yes. You know. Yeah, they didn't shoot anybody or no innocent bystanders, but it's really crazy in that

show watching in the morning light when those people finally start running and there's just swat people all the way up the street going like this and just people in 80s clothes fucking like booking it up the street. How have I never seen that? It's, yeah. I'm just picturing the Columbine video, the footage of the kids getting out of the, how scary that is. It's so awful.

That is so terrifying. You just got to wonder what you'd do in those like you personally would do in those situations. And as much as I'm like, it's the thing of like, well, those girls escaped, but like at what cost, you know, to like, because you're always like, well, they're going to kill someone else because I escaped. But then they were able to probably tell police where he was crouched and what he was doing and what he, yes, like what this situation was inside. So the girl that got shot, shot eight times, her friends had to stay behind.

So she had all this guilt. She got to leave and her friends were there. So she's like, you know, You got shot eight times. I think. Yeah. You got shot eight times. You're, you're free and clear.

But I mean, that's what a terrible scenario to even be in, and yeah, it's just, it's just such a crazy fucking unbelievable thing that happened. Yeah. Well, fuck man. Yeah. God bless. Amen. Okay.

Positive thing this week? Positive thing this week. Go ahead. Okay. Um, last night I got to see the movie, The Big Sick, which our friends Emily Gordon and Kumail Nanjiani made. And it was so lovely and such a great romantic story that isn't shitty. It was weird because I've known Emily for a long time and she told me the story about

how it's a story of how they started dating and she told me this and just to watch it and it and Kumail's in it and Zoe Kazan, who's so fucking talented. It was just, please go watch it. It's just such a great movie of like. Is it out? I think it's coming out this weekend or something. Okay, cool. Yeah, but it was just so lovely and it was great to see, great to see that.

I'm gonna be really happy. Nice. Yeah. Cool. What about you? Well, I guess I'll just do, I can do the simple one of that. I get to write on baskets this new season, which is very exciting. It's amazing.

I love that job and I love the people that work there and it's just like a very, very, very cool room to work in. Yeah. And that's so great. So yeah. So that's, it's even though it's hard to have, this is now a full time job, this podcast. So to have two is challenging, but we've done it before. We have.

Well, thanks for listening, you guys. Yes, thank you. We hope everything was great. We hope you are happy. This has been my favorite murder. You guys, thank you. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Bye.

Do you want me want to cook? Yeah. Seral Audio