My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 75 - Breakfast Wine

Episode Date: June 29, 2017

On this week's My Favorite Murder, Karen and Georgia cover the Main Line Murders and the murder of Spider Sabich.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Karen. Yes. Hi. Is this an ad? No. Can I talk to you about a food delivery system? It's called your mouth, and it delivers food. It's called your hand.

It's called your hand, too. It's called a fork, and we're advertising that today. Deliver that shit. What? Put it in your mouth. Hi. Welcome to my favorite murder. Hi.

Welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen. Hi. That's Karen. And that's Georgia. Yes. Hi, guys. Hi.

Thanks for tuning in. Oh, it's a late one tonight. It's a late night. It's kind of a, it's a sultry, hot Los Angeles night. We have to record late because of my work. We've got some mood lighting. It's actually not mood. It's just lighting.

It's just, it's just a bit of lighting. It's just pure lighting. We've got an unsolved mysteries paused on the TV. Oh, shit. I forgot to turn that off. It looks like decoration, kind of. Can you get, okay. So it's paused on like a woman walking through a graveyard.

She's very 80. She's got feathered hair and like a black flowy dress, and she looks very forlorn. But she's also, her dress is belted and she's got a great waist. Yeah. Jealous of that place. She looks amazing. And she clearly put on a lot of blue eyeshadow before she went out. You had to back then.

Yeah. It was, it was kind of like your way of saying, him out here, cars don't run me over. Yeah. Like, I'm single. I'm super sad, but I'm also like living my life. Yeah. You know. Just cause I'm at the cemetery doesn't mean I'm not going to bring it 100.

Right. Right. I'm not saying they didn't have in the 80s. They didn't. I'm not a mess. I always wonder like, what would happen if you went back in time, went to the 80s and then like use the sayings from today, would people think you're cool or insane or from Germany?

Right. Those are the only three choices. How are you? I would like to go back to the 80s and just tell myself, just relax a little bit. Oh my God. You don't have to talk so much. Yeah. I would like to say, stop fucking caring.

Stop caring. You can't do that though when you're a teen. No. There's too many chemicals in your brain, but I was in, I was in elementary school and I wish I'd stopped caring. Oh, I went to a new psychiatrist this week and she did this thing where she like asked me questions like a half an hour, which I love, but there were all questions where I had to be like, yeah, I guess I do feel like I had to admit a lot of shit and like I had

it. She's like, when were you a kid? How did I, how did you feel? And I'm like, well, I guess I hated myself. Like I had to be like, yeah, you delayed all out in the line to this woman I just met. Yeah. It's like this nice older woman, like old nice lady who ignored me completely when I was like, well, my sex drive's kind of down.

She was just like moving on to the next part like she's not, she's like, I'm not talking about that. Wow. Well, she was Armenian too. Like, so I think she was just this like kind of proper nice Armenian woman. What if she was like, here's the thing, we're going to cure that sex drive and it's going to be out of you entirely. You're going to be balls deep and fucking.

Oh, no. I was sitting in the opposite where she was just like, we're going to, that's all we're going to concentrate on. Oh, she's like, we're saving that for its own day. Yeah. Separate sex day. Yeah. God, I'd love to hear about that when it happens.

Sex day. Yeah. I mean, today's right now is sex day. Is it? Oh, you got the cure? I don't know what that meant. Um, I don't either. I'm just trying to improv your sex talk here.

Look, here's the first thing I need to tell you, Steven, and everybody in America. Okay. Of course, there are Italian Jews. I know. Of course, there are Italian. We knew that. We were kidding. I mean, I don't, I think I was just kind of wondering aloud, but man, did the Italian

Jews come out and drove so let me know that they exist. Me too. And I have to quit. Oh, fuck it. I don't have her name, but someone wrote, of course, there are Italian Jews. I'm one of them. One of us as, um, as the pizza bagels of religion, and that's just like, well, that was perfect. Yeah.

Yeah. Or is that racist? Well, if she's the one saying it and it's her thing, doesn't she get to describe herself however she wants. And also it's like, well, you're talking about a bagel, which is a Jewish thing. You're talking about pizza, which is an Italian thing, you know, traditionally. And so it's not like it's, it's how, yes, it totally makes sense. Anyway, it's gone.

It's a logical joke. My back track. And it's a good joke. Steven. Uh, so yeah, that's, I mean, we might need to cut Corrections Corner out entirely. It keeps going this direction. The Corrections Corner is that we're cutting out Corrections Corner. Here's the correction we need to make.

We need to stop talking about it. Um, no, but this was a real, real good email that Steven just gave me. Uh, subject line is my dad was John Orr's partner. So this was, I think from two episodes ago, John Orr was the, uh, arsonist, arson investigator in Glendale, California is Glendale, right? Yeah. Okay. So, uh, so here's this email.

Howdy. Hey, howdy. Hey. That's the greeting. So I'm driving to work and I have been listening to your podcast from the beginning. I hadn't listened in a few days and I started off with the many episodes and you started mentioning John Orr. My mouth dropped open and suddenly I was in a car searching for the podcast where you

talk about the arsonist John Orr and I couldn't believe it. You were talking about a man who I grew up with, uh, who was my dad's partner at the fire station. My dad worked for the Glendale police department and the two were paired up so that they would have a police officer and a fireman to investigate possible fires that had been started by arsonists. They were partners for six to 10 years and we knew John and his family the entire time he had been setting fires right under my dad's nose. My dad does recall that there were times when my dad was the one who was on call for the

weekend in case of any fire, any fires were suspicious. They were on call most of the time and would race to the scene of the fire and most of the time John would show up saying things like, I thought you might need my help. My dad would get so annoyed, um, but we know, but we now know why he was there. My dad and a few of the men with some of the 10 people, uh, with some of the 10 people you spoke of were board members of the CC AI California conference of arson investigators who attended all of the arson seminars in Fresno in Monterey. And as a matter of fact, they were once John's peers as I was listening to your podcast,

I just wanted to scream and say, Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. I so badly wish I could have called in, played a Colin show. Yeah. We're going to do one episode or I have a Colin, I mean, that's so hilarious. Just someone screaming, screaming. I know that is, um, there was so much this entire story. My dad stopped being his partner before he was caught and arrested. Um, my dad did have to testify against him and was investigated because John or was his

partner. And I look at him possibly being a psychopath and I recall my dad telling me different stories about how in, um, different situations, oh, how indifferent he would act toward different things. So I think there's something to that definite lack of empathy. I've never seen the forensic files on his story. And I remember when the movies was released, of course, no one in my family saw it. The book you spoke of was really disheartening because the man who wrote it mentions my dad

several times, um, because John spoke of my dad. John and the author were not kind. The author of the book never once spoke to my dad and most of the book is John's opinion. He is a psycho and deserves to be locked up in jail for the rest of his life. I think he is crazy because I never thought that there would be anything that would speak of, um, oh, that you would speak of that would have anything to do with me at all. And so you bring up the one story that I could say anything about. I went to work and told everyone the story.

Still my jaws dropped open. You left me speechless. Rock on with your bad cells and don't play with matches. That's all hugs from the sexy murdering now tea. Oh my God. I love it. That's hilarious. That's crazy.

I mean, what are the fucking chances? Well, also, I mean, as we now know, pretty much everyone we talk to, everybody is one. Oh, yeah. Basically one step away from a murderer, murderer experience in my story tonight, there's there's a murdering. No involvement. Yeah. Which is like so exciting.

That's very cool. Um, I wanted to tell you speaking of one step away and hand to mouth consumption. So you did the Zanku chicken murders a while back and uh, say there were a couple nights ago or a while back Vince got Zanku chicken and we of course got extra and saved the fucking amazing garlic sauce that they give you with it. That's like fucking known all over the city. I made a martini with it. With the garlic sauce?

Yeah. Clearly it was after one martini. And then I was, huh, it's good. I mean, it was gross. It was good. It was gross. You know what I mean? I'm just trying to picture it.

Was it like floating inside the martini? No, no, no. I like, I like stirred it up really well. So it was like a garlic confused martini. Oh, okay. With a fucking garlic stuffed olive with it. That sounds good. It was like a dirty martini though with Zanku chicken garlic sauce.

Kind of strong tasting. I would imagine. But I like garlic. Because that sauce is, I mean, you taste it for days after you eat it. Yeah. You belch that for fucking days. Good for you though. Just want to let you know.

I love it. Anything else? You have any corrections? Corners? Merch corner? Show corner? I don't know. Show corner, Steven.

Let's see. Hold on before Steven does the merch corner. I mean, the show corner announcement, which is an exciting announcement. I just want to bring up the hilarious person who mentioned on Twitter yesterday or today. Hey, don't you think Steven kind of sounds like Tina Belcher? And I could not stop laughing. And then a barrage of people were sending gifts of Tina Belcher going like, yeah, baby. And it was so hilarious.

Let me hear it. Tell me about it. Okay, Steven, I want to hear your, do your normal voice because I want to picture it. But tell us about the show. But also talk about butts. No. Yeah. Butts all the time.

No accents or anything. Yeah. I hear it. I fucking hear it. I totally fucking hear it. Sure. And I can hear it in my head too. You guys are going to Boulder, Colorado, August 26th.

So we're doing the show in Denver for the High Plain Scott Festival. And then the next night we're like, fuck it. Let's go to fucking Boulder. We're going to Mork and Mindy's town. It's a town. Yeah. That's where the opening shot of Mork and Mindy after the opening credits was that was that shot of the mountain that's right behind the city center.

And I was always fascinated by that when I was a kid. Like, it looked like the coolest little city right under a mountain, basically. I'm excited. I'm very excited. Yeah. There's cool. It's like, it's kind of like Austin. Oh.

And when do we know if there's a pre-sale or any kind of info? It'll go on sale the day that episode comes out. So today. Yeah. Yeah. Go to the website. My favorite murder.com slash live. Okay.

There you go. And we're supposed to tease and I feel like it is really fucking fun. We're planning a big old tour for like September through December or January. I think September through February. Fuck. It's a big long one. Yeah. And we're coming to lots of cities, lots of people who have said, why won't you come

to my city? Or I know you hate my city. We didn't want to tell you what the time we're like, we're coming. Yeah. Because we didn't know for sure, but we've gone over it. It's a lot. So hopefully some people will be excited that maybe have felt snubbed in the past. Yeah.

Sorry, Des Moines. We're still not. You're not unless yet, but you will do someday. No, you won't. When will you learn to not point out one city that's now it's like the mayor of Des Moines? Never. Is it Des Moines or Des Moines? Stephen?

Des Moines. I bet it's Des Moines. Tina put his hand straight up into the air. I'm singing the song, the one song that I know that brings up the, I think it's Des Moines. Des Moines Singular. Yeah. Yeah.

I think so too. Okay. Go to my favorite murder shirts.com if you want merch or work, you know, do those things. Man, this is a short fucking intro. We're getting right into it. It's a late night. Let's just do it. It was a late night.

All right. This is a skipper's dream show. I'm going to have to skip. Stephen. Who's first? It's you. Oh. Am I right?

Yeah. You've been on it. Woo. Oh, I'm sorry. Am I not good enough? You're not good enough. This is the episode where we tell you that, but this, but we're going to do it subtly through me naming who goes first.

I know it's tough to hear. I mean, I've always known. It's like you're not telling elementary school, Georgia, anything new. No. No. Let her come out. I want to speak to a 11 year old Georgia right now. Tell her to tell that psychiatrist that you want to talk about sex ASAP.

Was that creepy to talk about? I feel like I'm my own mom when your mom talks about sex and you're like, what? My mom, Janet. What? I'm young. My mom, being the nurse, she'd always be like, girls, it's natural. I mean, just be like, you sound like a drag queen. She sounds like a douche commercial.

It was totally like a woman's body is the chemicals in a woman's body are very special. Women get me have needs and wants to get me out of this carpool. What about when you call it the female orgasm? There's something about the race, the female orgasm. Female orgasm has a little pink bow on the side. Oh, it's adorable and quiet and it's just easy and it smells like baby powder. Moving on. And then you got to move on from the sex from the real orgasm.

That's right. The man orgasm. And we don't even call it the man orgasm. That's right. It's just the orgasm. But the female fries up. Let's talk about a woman got killed now. Okay.

All right. Okay. So the other night I couldn't sleep and as always I click on any fucking article that is about some kind of case or murder or horrible thing that's going to make me not be able to sleep. Yep. Which I already can't do. Right.

So I found one called the 18 creepy murder cases you've never heard of that'll fuck you up on Buzzfeed. Oh, I read that. Did you? Well, I read one that was a murder cases that you've never heard before because I always love to read them be like, I've heard of that. I was just going to say, oh yeah, try me. I always heard it heard or like when it's like the craziest like 911 call murders and

it's like, I'm not going to do that one. It's not that crazy. And then you don't know what crazy is. And you have the assholes in the comments that are like, he forgot this murder and it's like, they didn't forget it. They didn't fucking put it in because it's not that, you know, yes. So it's almost like no matter what is whoever's coming toward that article is going to be an asshole.

Like we are. Yes. Exactly. And I was leading the pack. Because at least half of them, I didn't know. So this is from 18 creepy murder cases you've never heard of that'll fuck you up. Okay. I almost did one on this list.

I swear to God. And at the last minute, I just didn't do it. This one's boring. Go ahead. I live for the week. We do the same murder. God damn it. I know what happens.

The world explodes. It's just, it'll be a ton of laughing and then we'll like, I don't know, we'll do something totally different. And we'll never do the podcast again. What if Steven, here it is, Steven. At some point in your job that you are now currently being paid for, you write up two murders and you keep them in a file in your big pack backpack. And then if there's day ever comes where we do the same murder, you pull out the two mystery

murders and then we have to read those. No, because I go ahead. No, just from like zero, like you're just like, here you go. Yeah. Yeah. You guys are good to go. No, but I love the idea of us doing the same murder. We'd crack the fuck up, we'd freak the fuck out, like how did we both know this?

I guess you're right. We'd just do it simultaneously as opposed to one after the other. Yeah. It would just be like paragraph by paragraph. I think it'd be so fun. I think people who don't like our speech patterns would hate us, but I think it'd be really fun. I do too.

I'm like, looking forward to it. Okay, Steven, cancel that assignment and instead, could you just pre-prepare others? Yeah. You know what, Steven? You know what I want you to do? I want you to fucking get like one of those, I want you to get like party supplies, like loud making party supplies, glitter thing. And the day that we have the same murder, I want you to fucking shoot glitter at us

and blow all of those blow, you know, and like put a party hat on all of us. And you know what that means, Steven? That means since you never know when it could happen, you always have to have a pocket full of glitter and a blower in your other pocket. Party hats for all of us. He's reaching in his back right now. I wish you guys could see Steven's backpack. It is the biggest backpack I've ever seen.

It's a gen sport. I think it's standard size, but there's something about what Steven carries in it or whatever he's doing that it honestly looks like, it looks like a four year old baby and Mimi could fit in there. And it's one of those ones that you see on like the late night news, like, is your kid's backpack screwing up its back, tune in at 11 to find out. I love that they would call the kid it and screwing up. That's the news I want to watch screwing up its back.

Maybe you should get rid of it. What a pain in the ass that thing is. Jesus, it's going to have back problems now. Just like you, you fucking asshole, I repeat reproducing. Why did you reproduce? Wow. That's a long segment. You're a weak spine child.

And we could that segment a little bit short. Fine. No, I mean the news. No, I know. Okay. Not you. I was continuing the improv, but I went too real with my character and then I always blur the line like that.

I meant like, okay. Not you. We should never you. You always us. Always the news. Always the news characters. It's always their problem. If we took one improv class, imagine how annoying we would be.

Imagine how we would heighten and expand and lose so many listeners. Okay, let's play Zip Zap Zop and then we'll start. You know, like one, maybe one third of the fucking listeners understood that. Yes. I don't know. I think improv and comedy are taking over the world. I think it's required now that if you're 24, you've graduated from college, you don't have a job.

You have to take a class at UCD. You learn well in group settings, kind of feel lost and you're like, I need, I need a circle of dudes to stand in. Yeah. And one woman, one token woman to objectify. It was really funny. It was really funny, but she's doesn't, she's not super hot and doesn't wear skirts. You might have to wait to see her for a while.

Yeah. So she's like a bro. So I just keep doing improv scenes where I have to touch her butt. What is happening? What character are you now? No. Is it the same news anchor? Yeah.

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No, let's get into murder. No, let's please. All right. So 18 degree murder is bloody blah. Thanks bud. Feet because you helped me a lot. Karen. Ardmore.

Pennsylvania. Okay. This is a really fucked up case that I'd really never heard of. Okay. And I was shocked because it's fucking crazy. So it's okay. Early 70s, a woman named Susan Reiner, she's a pretty kind of mousy looking 30 something year old English teacher at Upper Marion area high school in the mainline suburbs.

Oh, by the way, this is called the mainline murders. Okay. Damn it. That's okay. It's about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. Susan is married with two children and she's having an affair. Yes. Sorry.

With the chair of the English department. With the chair? No. Like Clint Eastwood in that speech he gave. Sorry. Remember how I was screaming at the chair in my psychologist recently? She's having an affair with that chair. Oh my God.

She's doing role play with a chair and then it got out of hand and she's like, I'm gonna fuck this chair. Yeah. Got serious. She left her husband for the chair. Steven, we have to pull all of this out. No more. She's not dead yet.

So it's okay. Okay. All right. So imagine at a high school, just picture the chair of the English department. Okay. Tweed Vest. Tweed Vest in the 70s. Heavy beard.

It's a very large beard and maybe some like aviator shaped glasses that are indoor, outdoor. What do you call those? Transition lens glasses. Yes. And Susan herself, there's like not a lot of photos of her, but she's like cute and mousy and you can tell she's kind of probably soft-spoken and she has these, the like the eyeglasses that are just take up half of her face. Yes.

They're like saucers on her face. Right. Which like looks cute. And it's like cool. And it's very 70s is like maybe just when contact lenses started, when the contact lenses were as big as glasses frame, glasses lenses anyway. You just had a cramming your eyeball. Yeah.

You were just shoving huge things. And they're made of glass. Back when. Is that true? Can you tell me? Maybe. It was when, if it fell out at a party, people could help you find it. Yeah.

That's how big they were. I was always proud of myself. How good I was at finding my mom's contacts when they, it's such a weird, that was just as gone. Okay. She was just boning her fuck, the chair of the English department. So you're saying Mousie and whatever you're judging on picture sounds to me like she's a real go getter.

Yeah. I mean, she's not afraid. Yeah. Sidelining up to the English department chair and be like, cheating on her husband. May I speak to you in my private quarters? Yeah. But I think here's the thing. I think he's a Ted Bundy type.

This English department chair. Yeah. His name. Okay. So then he might have been sorry, but he might have been going toward her then. Okay. And she's having an affair. She has two children.

His name is Bill Bradford. The guy? Nope. His name is Bill Bradfield. Okay. His name is Bill Bradfield. I'm going to call him Bill. Okay.

Okay. So Susan is the woman. Bill's the fucking creep English department head and he's super charismatic and charming. He's described by some of the other teachers as a pseudo intellectual who was quote full of himself. Oh. So he's like a Ted Bundy charming. He's like 10 years older than her.

She's swept off her feet by him and she's just like probably like, I've never felt she's never had a female orgasm until she met him. I bet you. For a second, I thought that was in the Buzzfeed article. I just like, huh? Wait. What? Also, if he's a pseudo intellectual, I bet you he carried a pipe around with him.

Pipe, tweed, elbow pads, some kind of transition lens and heavy cologne. I bet he put like oil in his beard. Yeah. Cultivated his beard. Really trimmed it up every morning and he probably had like really expensive whiskey. Right. And he had a book of erotic Chinese lithographs that he would invite people over to look at. Like, how are we so good at this?

I just describing someone. I feel like we've lived past lives in the 70s and we're really pissed off about what we were subjected to. Dude. Okay. That's enough already with us having to deal with these people. Enough. Enough.

All right. By March 79, Susan leaves his left her husband and she tells her friends that Bill, pseudo intellectual, is going to marry her. They're engaged. So she's truly in love. She's madly in love with him, obsessed. So much so, Karen, that she gives him $25,000 when he tells her that he has a crazy great investment opportunity, 12% gains.

It's only going to be six months and I need it in cash. Damn, Susan. Okay. She gives him $25,000 to invest. She's two children. Oh. And back then, what was that? Oh, my God.

Almost $100,000. Yeah. And her kids, Karen is 11. Hi. Hi, Karen. Hi. You're 11. You're not 11.

It's not you. Karen's 11. Michael's 10. So she was like two young children. And, are you ready for this? She makes him the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. This is not going to go well. Worth?

How much do you think a life insurance policy for this woman would be? $250,000? Over $700,000. Oh. No. Yeah. She cuts her children out of the life insurance policy and she changes her will to make him bill the sole hair, hair?

Nope. No. Hair to her estate. So, okay. So she's, she's getting a number run on her hard core. It sounds like she's pretty naive. You know, it's like a small suburb in Pennsylvania. She's an English teacher.

She's not. All the things that I wanted to be real for her are probably not true. She's like, she's got her, she, as my dad likes to say, she got her bell rung by this guy. Oh my God. Yeah. Like the guy that, it's that thing where, and it's a really good trick that scumbags use where it's that thing of like, they pick out people that they know don't get certain

kinds of attention and then they slather you with that kind of attention so that you're kind of like, oh, he's picking me of all people in the world. Yeah. I've never felt this way before. Yeah. And, I mean, fine, get your bell rung and shit, but like at the cost of your children. Don't adjust the will. No, just the will for your sweet English chair side piece.

And she wrote in it like, like, who's the beneficiary? What's his relation? Like my intended husband, like she fucking really thought this guy was going to marry her. Yeah. So she didn't know that Bill, of course, was living with another woman for years. Also a teacher at the same school. So he's just fucking getting his harem, which they didn't call it that.

Did she, and she didn't know that at all. I think, I think he was like, we're roommates, there's no sexual relation, you know, like I think something like that happened. It's really hard. This took me a long time because, of course, like all of these crazy, really interesting murders, there's fucking pieces that you just keep finding and there's not a lot of information on them. Okay.

He also had at least two, at least two other girlfriends, one of which was an 18 year old former student of his. So yeah. Yes. So $25,000 he had said was really investing had gone into a safe deposit box put in there by one of his girlfriends. And the term was ending soon. So she was expecting her money soon.

Okay. What's going to happen? Bad things. Yes. The night of June 22nd, 1979. So we're 1979, Susan and the kids, Karen and Michael, they're planning on meeting Bill. It's like a night of a crazy hailstorm, a neighbor saw them leaving their house just after 9pm.

And the neighbor happens to be the aunt of a murderer now. What? I fucking, I went into the, my favorite murder email account, put in the name of this thing and out comes like five emails. And one of them, the chick was like, you've got to look this fucking email up. Her name is Gina A. She says that her mom. So Gina wasn't born yet, but her mom was the next door neighbor of this family. And she and her sister used to babysit Karen and Michael and that her, that Gina's great

grandmother swore that she heard screaming the night they left, which is never confirmed. But the aunt and the great grandma stopped for the last people to see them leaving the house. Oh my God. Yeah. So at that point, Susan and her kids vanish. But then three days later, thank you, Gina A for writing in by the way. Yeah.

Um, three days later, January 25th, 1979, almost exactly a year ago. No. Yeah. Well, well, not a year ago. I meant. Okay. I know what you meant. Stephen.

Stephen, help us. 30 years ago. Is that right? No. Is that? Yes. 30 years ago. Yes.

No. 30. No. It's 2017. Hey. It'll be 30 in two years. That's exactly the kind of math I can't do. Me too.

And every other kind of math. And geometry. And everything. Oh man. I even told my psychiatrist about that yesterday that I just can't do math. Did you have a math shutdown in high school? I had a math shutdown my whole life. I had to get sent to a hypnotist about because my math got so crazy about it.

A hypnotist isn't going to help you? Well, my mother had some ideas about the female orgasm and about hypnosis. Did I help? She was very, she was a very spiritual, she was, she was like, um, New Agey, I'll touch New Agey, but then, but from a registered nurse background, you know what I mean? Right. She's like, I've seen results. These are the things I've seen results in.

Good for her. I meant to talk to you about this documentary I watched about a cult over the weekend, but I forgot. Okay. Next time. Okay. The hypnotists. Okay.

The kids disappear three days later, a year ago, June 25th, 1979, a man calls the police about a quote, sick woman in the trunk of a car of a car in the parking lot of the host in, in Swarta Township, Pennsylvania. It's about 90 miles from Susan's home and in the trunk of her own car, which was an orange, I wrote this down for you, an orange, Plymouth, or horizon hatchback. Did you write in, it's just like such an eighties, did you write in one of those a Plymouth horizon hatchback? I feel like I can see what that is.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so she's in the back of, in the hatchback and her body is found there. Oh, she was nude, Susan was nude. She had been severely beaten. She had two black eyes. She was bound with a chain so tightly that the chains left bruises on her back and she was killed with an injection of morphine.

And it had been 24 to 36 hours after the beating in which she had been killed. And there was no sign of her children. Oh, yeah. So obviously Bill, the fucking teacher or English guy was the main suspect once the investigators found out about the affair, which he had been denying to everyone and saying wasn't true. And they found out about the money that he had an alibi for that weekend that she went missing.

He was at the beach in Cape May, New Jersey, uh, with a bunch of other teachers and they all vouched for his whereabouts. Yeah. But even if, even if he wasn't nearby in that exact same time, why would she leave you as the beneficiary on her will if you weren't having an affair or if there's no connection to you? But they, but they were at that point were like, yeah, he was like, I don't think he ever denied it to the police that they were, oh, sorry, just around town.

Yeah. Got it. Just like to the other teachers and stuff. Got it. Um, but he was out of town, um, and after a couple of years, there's still not enough evidence to charge him with Susan's death and the missing children. Okay. But there was enough evidence for prosecutors to charge Bill with theft by deception because

of the $25,000 she had given him and what turned out to be a bogus investment. Oh. And so they were like, we know he fucking had something to do with her disappear murder. We can't charge him for that. Let's just bring him in for this for now. So 72 hours before his trial was supposed to begin from his jail cell, Bill files a claim to collect Susan's life insurance money that was left to him. Sorry.

What's this? There are so many twists and turns in this fucking thing. He sends a stamped envelope out in a bird's mouth out the jail cell window. I did read conflicting things that he was actually not in jail yet, but he was or he wasn't. But like, what kind of fucking idiot right before this would be like, but you know what you should add on to those charges? Yeah.

If I just get that money real quick, I'll be able to plea. And so the, the, uh, the jury finds him guilty, obviously. And in 1981, he sentenced to up to two years in jail for the $25,000. And then during this time, police are also investigating someone else. So here's, okay, let's switch fucking, let's go to another fucking weird thing happening. Okay. Principal of the high school where Susan and Bill were teaching the principal's Dr. J. Smith.

I'm going to call him principal Smith from now on. So we know who he is. Okay. He's a 50 year old dude and he was known as the quote, quote, creepy school principal. So this dude's a fucking creep, principal Smith. Absolute creep. The teacher's jokingly called him the prince of darkness. Oh, wow.

That's a joke. Yeah. That is funny joke. That's funny. What's your nickname? Oh, me? Oh, it's a devil joke, um, the prince of darkness because I'm so lighthearted because I love to be around children and I'm of the devil.

I've got eyes and a cape. It's a thing of like when you, uh, go to a doctor's office and you fill out your thing and it's like, what name do you like to be? What like, do you have a nickname that you want to be called? Yeah. Prince of darkness. Marty. Marty.

We're friends of darkness. I don't even think, not your dad, not your dad. I go by Marty. Uh, okay, but um, okay. So this is my favorite fucking thing in the entire world ready for the best quote you've ever heard. Yes. So crime writer Joseph Wamba wrote a book about the whole case called Echoes in the

Darkness, which is like same guy that wrote the John Orr book. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. This guy, he was a cop and he was like, goodbye. I'm going to go make a ton of money instead. Yeah. Yeah.

So he in the book says that quote, some thought that Jay Smith, the principal, looked like an obscene phone call. Have you ever heard a better description of someone that's fucking genius? I know. An amazing look like an obscene phone call. So he's like, what? He's like, I picture like shoulders up around the ears, kind of like wringing his hands, like greasy hair, fucking yeah, big thick glasses.

Oh man. He looked like an obscene phone call. That's amazing. I want to go ahead and that was, that's beautiful. Congratulations, Joseph Wamba or John Joseph. Joseph. Yeah. Okay, so he's known to be eccentric and a weird man, often sitting in his office during

school hours, wearing only his underwear, which you could get away with in the fucking 70s. It's not allowed. You can't do that. Mary Lou, can you take these papers? Principal Smith, you're not allowed to be here anymore. I'm just hot. I'm hot.

It's winter. It's hot in here. It's the dead of winter, Principal Smith and it's midnight. Well, I'm the Prince of Darkness, so I'm just constantly sweating and it's midnight. Why did you call me in? Why did you call me in from home? Yeah, because I'm the Prince of Darkness. Okay, there's rumors around town that Principal Smith had devil worship sex parties and had

burned bodies in the school incinerator and buried chopped up body parts. So I guess they were building a school pool at this time. And so people are like, he's fucking bearing bodies under where they're building the pool. So they'll be hidden forever. I just have to say that both of those rumors that you just named sound like they came out straight out of the third grade classroom. Yeah. It's just like, but what if they're cutting up bodies?

He has cult sex parties and I was like, that's not a thing. I mean, people fucking swap and bone, but like, yeah, there's no, the cult's like nobody wants to have an occult sex party. No, but he is sitting. What's worse and harder to face is he literally is sitting in his underwear during school hours in his office. That part's true. That's so who cares if the others isn't don't need to make up satanic parties.

That's when the principal's sitting in his underwear in his office. Like enough. Come on. Like don't your parents are going to be like, but that's okay about any of it. Um, okay. So but Dr. Principal Smith's own kid, Stephanie Hunsburger and her husband Edward disappeared in early 1978, like a year before Susan went missing. They were reportedly heroin addicts.

They fucking disappeared out of nowhere. And they were assumed they had left on their own because they were drug addicts, but till they say they've never been seen again. So people assumed they're in the pool too. Yeah. Whoa. Um, so a year before Susan's body is found, Principal Smith is caught trying to break into cars in a mall parking lot.

The principal is trying to break into cars in a mall parking lot and on him are four loaded guns as well as silencer made from an oil cap, oil filter, a tranquilizing drug and quote a hood with two slits for the eyes. No. Yep. What are those called? Cabot. Cab.

Bella clava. That's not about a clava though. Thank you. I can never get that. Thank you for your input. I can never get that fucking word. It's, you know why it's weird, but I always think of Balenciaga, the designer, but a hood with two isolates is more Zodiac-y.

Yeah. Because a balaclava like sticks to your face as like a ski mask. And you have an opening for the mouth too, right? Yes. You're right. And also it's just more devil worship-y. Yeah. But how do you breathe through that?

I guess just slowly and you stay calm with your tranquilizer in your pocket and your four fucking guns. If you're a sociopath, you're not panicking. Right. That's right. All right. So, his house is searched, police finds, swinger publications, bestiality porn, and chains and locks.

Oh, that's just a safety thing. He has a ton of bikes. He loves bicycling. You know what? You're probably right. Let's go back and exonerate. Bicycling in a mouth. Did they find it?

They didn't say how many bikes they found. So, let's hear the whole story. Like, don't just, Principal Smith's wife, he has a wife. She's like, here, I'm going to do her voice. Well, he had a double costume and he had a collection of dildos. Like, that's what Mrs. Principal Smith said. Maureen Smith. Maureen Smith.

Maureen, you need to face the facts. Maureen, this isn't normal. Have you ever had a female orgasm? Well, this episode is going to be called Female Orgazm. I've heard of them. I have heard tell. Those are, what's it called? Those are made up.

Those are fictional. Those are none of my business. Principal Smith. She calls him Principal Smith. Tell me. That that's just, it's a feminist movement where they try to get you to have sex. Principal Smith told me. Wait.

Maureen, do you call your husband Principal Smith? It's what he asked on our wedding night. He was in a devil's costume. If the devil tells me to do something. She's suddenly from the south. Okay. That accent has to get weirder as you talk like Maureen Smith. At her mind.

Yeah. Okay. So, he was using his fake brink security badge, which they later, which they tied to a $50,000 armed robbery at Sears a year earlier. So, he was using his fake fucking costume and his fucking security badge and guns and fucking holding up Sears for 50 grand. Like why does Sears have that much money there? The popcorn's amazing.

Okay. But also maybe he's like, maybe that's why he needed to cool off in his office with no pants on. He's like committing major heists and then rushing back to school. One time. Yes. I'm so hot. Mary Lou, can you just fix this on your own?

Sorry. I just ran from the bank. All right. So, he's arrested and among his defense witnesses at his trial in 1979, three months before Susan's body is found is our friend Bill. Oh. Mr. Elbow Patches. Yeah.

He gives Principal Smith an alibi and even back then, Susan, who's still alive at the time, three months left to live, she doubted Bill's alibi too. She thought he was making it up, but Principal Smith either way has found guilty and given five years. But, okay. He's free on bail while he's waiting sentencing. His date in court, which he was late to, was June 25, 1979, which may I fucking remind you is the date that Susan's body was found.

He was late that morning to court. Because he was calling and saying a sick lady is in a car. Well, oh, I don't know, but listen, go ahead. Susan was found early that morning at like five a.m. in the trunk of the car, but her kids disappeared. Right. And the court's date he was late to was about 15 minutes from the hotel where the parking lot where her body was found and the police at that moment during his arraignment are

removing Susan's body from the car. Okay, so Patches is in Patches is on like in Connecticut or something, right? He said he was he had an alibi being like far away. Yeah. So he got this guy to do it. All right. Let's keep going. Okay.

We'll have. Well, yes. This will be discussed. This will be discussed. Oh, we're going to talk about this. This is going to happen. I don't know. I have to keep on guessing.

I'm sorry. No, I love it. It's the best. It's fun. Yeah. Happy. So guess what else is in the back of the hatchback? I'll tell you under Susan's body, there's a sex toy and B also a plastic comb with

the name of principal Smith's Arnie reserve. No, no, which I'm guessing you know, fucking gross old men like that, like grandpa's put their fucking gross greasy combs in the front of their fucking shirt pocket, like button down with short sleeve shirt pockets that took off when they were in their offices. Yeah. Like, you know, he bent down into the trunk and it probably fell out of that top shirt pocket. And then he put her, you know what I mean?

Totally. Yes. The little, but it was a comb that he had his own name principal Smith put on. No, it, I think it was the Arnie reserve unit that he was in. Oh, just that. Yeah. It didn't say principal Smith's Arnie reserve. Yeah.

Okay. Sorry. I took you totally literally on that. Like they probably got it at like a fucking legionnaires hall party. Got it. You know, they passed them out. Right. It was just the one he belonged to.

Yeah. Like his name was all in the game and everyone. What if his first name was principal? That would be great. Mr. Mr. Principal, it's principal Paul Smith, Mr. Principal Paul Smith, then later a cute little green pin that was a souvenir from a class trip to the Philadelphia Museum of Art that Karen, 11 year old Karen wore the day she disappeared was found under the front passenger seat of principal Smith's car.

Oh, no. Yeah. So almost four years after Susan Reinhart's death, Bill Bradford patches is arrested and charged with the three murders, even though the kids have never been found charged with three murders. And on April 6, 1983, thanks to the help of another English teacher who was a good friend of Bill, who was like a really fucking sweet, wonderful guy and got conned by Bill as well. He felt betrayed and freaked out and told the FBI and he was a key witness in the trial.

Well, what do you tell him? It's Mr. Volatus. He told them that for months before Susan's death, Bill was freaking out because he thought he was telling everyone he thought principal Smith was going to kill her, but it was really odd and weird and he like got a gun to defend her, but never told her about his feelings. Never weird and convoluted and makes you go, hmm, is he setting up an alibi or is he like he's, he's pre-thrilling people off? Right.

But why even bring it up in the first place? Right. Because he thinks he's smarter than everyone. Yes. So he's getting all these other people involved in it and so and that it says you pass who he knows he can like charm and manipulate people to kind of believe whatever. And then so when she dies, he can, they're all going to be like, well, yeah, Bill knew about this.

Bill knew principal Smith was going to kill her. This is what he feared all along. So this is what happened. And Bill is right. It's instead of being like, Bill is fucking creeping us all out. He has a gun. All right. So Mr. Velladis was cool in 1986 while in prison for his other conviction of the armed

robbery, principal Smith is convicted of conspiring with Bill to kill the Reiner family. So he's convicted as well. Whoa. Both men tried to pin the murders on the other claiming they were set up by the other one. He's principal Smith is convicted of three counts of murder and given the death penalty. Wow. Cut to six years later. This isn't ending it.

Okay. More fucking twisted. I never wanted to end. All right. In 1992, good old 92, an antique dealer. Like this is so what the fuck. I can't even believe this. An antique dealer who you know, it's just like, he's like American pickers, dudes, you

know, like an antique dealer. Sounds really nice. I know. I'll give you 800 for that propeller. Yeah. It's worth 10,000. Well, who's going to buy it for that? Yeah.

You're a dumb farmer. You don't know that. I hate the guy I'm working with. Have you watched that show? It's the fucking they hate each other. Did they fight? No, but you can like feel it. They hate each other.

Okay. A quote antique dealer is hired to clean out that the addict belonging to the state detective, like the main state detective that was involved in this case in the Reiner murders. The addict. The addict. Did I say addict? God. Why do I always do that?

Why do I always do that? Sorry. No, I'm glad you corrected me. I just want to make sure that's what it's a running. It's a running. He didn't hire him to clean out his addict. Some heroin added. We already have addicts in this story.

That's right. But they're just, they've disappeared. Right. Insanely enough. And they're not in the attic. But this is the fact that you're even introducing an antique dealer that is about to clean out an addict, dude, is my favorite. Please go to it.

Yes. In the attic, there's a box containing a duplicate of the comb found under Susan, investigative notes contradicting prosecution testimony, and adhesive quote lifters, which I think is like tape that they containing grains of sand and quartz from the bottom of Susan's feet that they never turned over to the defense. Why? So I don't understand the duplicate comb, but maybe that just, I don't understand that part.

They went and got another one, maybe. To prove that it wasn't. To find it. To, I don't know. Yeah. But whatever reason they had it. And then contradictory notes, fine. But the lifters, okay, Bill said he was at the beach that fucking weekend.

Yes. There was sand and quartz that could have tested the fucking sand at that Jersey shore beach. Why does she have that on her feet? Yeah. My feeling is, did she leave that night to confront him? He was there with his living girlfriend. He fucking freaks out and kills them.

Yeah. I mean, she, he doesn't expect it like basically his little separate lives overlap. And she's like, you got to tell them now or I'm going to fucking leave you or I'm going to tell them myself. Or just I'm going to change that will and all the other paper. Yeah. Because I made a mistake and you're a scum. Yeah.

And he freaks out. But the other people at the beach, I have no doubt they would have, if they had known they would have said something because it was that guy who testified against him. His living girlfriend didn't seem like the kind of, she ended up testifying against him as well. Like they weren't scumbags who ran on it. All right. So, Principal Smith's defense attorney says that this could have been, this could have

placed the murderer in the New Jersey shore, right? Which would have helped Principal Smith get off. So after serving six years on death row, Principal Smith is released in 92. Even though we don't know, he didn't have anything to do with it. She was chained up and he was into chains. His fucking comb was in the car or what if Bill put it in there on purpose? Right. He could have placed it in there.

Yeah. Maybe they had more of them. Right. Maybe there's a can of those combs because he was saying that Principal Smith's going to kill her. Fuck. What happens? And maybe the fucking pin was put in Principal Smith's car.

Yes. Fuck, dude. I'm contradicting my whole. Well, no, but I mean, if he was telling people that many months beforehand, he was probably collecting things to set him up. He could have been collecting things to set him up before and that's very realistic. Right. So, he's released in 92 because the evidence prosecutors may have exonerated him and through

the appeals court, he, the appeals court agreed that there was unethical conduct, but they also said that quote, nothing untrustworthy about Smith's, there was nothing untrustworthy about Smith's conviction for murder. So they was like, they were like, we fucking think he did it, but he got an unfair trial and so we have to let him go. Yeah. So they, so for some whatever reasons, whatever evidence they thought he was, they were working together.

All right. And with a box found the 911 tape of the call about Susan's body was mistakenly destroyed. Her body was, here's the fucking second time this has happened in very short time. Accidentally cremated. Oh, wait. Yeah. And the autopsy audio tape was lost until after the trial. That's three things.

That's too many things. One thing maybe where you're like, oh, that's bad. Cremate a woman. Well, you don't accidentally do it. You don't do. I don't think so. No. I mean, I don't think so.

Like there's basic paperwork. You don't just toss a fucking body in the crematorium. No, but you toss a 20 grand toward a person that's running that crematorium and then say, look the other way. Well, I do what I need to get done. 20 grand is a lot of money. Or something. Yeah.

No, no, no. It's a combination of because also then the autopsy where the coroner is talking and going, now there's a mild abrasions on this and that. So there's no way to read. It's like they can't dig her up and give her that autopsy again. They can't check anything like bite marks or anything that would actually indicate. Or like DNA. The Reinhardt case becomes the biggest investigation in the history of Pennsylvania state police

in 1987, a mini series based on it on the echoes in the darkness book comes out, which I can only find 10 minutes of online. Karen, you would fucking lose your mind if you saw this. Who was in it? All right. I wrote every single person down for you. Thank you. You asked that.

Oh my God. It's episode 75. We finally got in sync. Yes. It only took us 74. All right. Susan is played by Stockard Channing. Oh, yes.

I knew you'd love that. Bill, old Patches Bill is played by Peter Coyote. Yes. Peter Coyote. I don't know him. He's, yes you do. He's the narrator for the Oscars. Oh.

Coming up next. He's like, and he's like a very, he's, I think he's from theater mostly, but you've seen things. He's super low key. He looks like Ray Romano. Is that? Yeah. Okay.

He's like Ray Romano's arty brother. Because I watched the 10 minutes, which were so good and like there are so many other convoluted points to this whole story that like I couldn't even get to that weren't really part of it, but there, I think they're in the mini series. I'm so bum. I can't find it. We have someone listening has it on cassette. Their mom recorded it when it came out with the commercials.

We need you to fucking upload it. Did you imagine with the commercials? Oh, sorry. What year? This came out in 87. The commercials would make me barf. I would be so happy. It would be, well, it would be New Coke.

Yeah. It would be LA, LA looks hair gel. Yes. It would be whatever market that the mom recorded it in the fucking panic news coming up next after this mini series. Yes. Your children's backs are fucked. That's right.

Give up your children. Yes. Okay. Okay. Oh, and then principal Smith has paid played by Robert Loggia. Robert Loggia. Loggia. Yes.

Who's he? You know him. He, I won't be able to think of anything offhand. He is the guy. He's short. He has had white hair for most of his career and he got a dog like this. He's got a big kind of a big nose. He has an Italian feel to him because he's not in the 10 minutes.

He's not in that one at all. He's the cop. No. He's the fucking principal. He's principal Smith. Yeah. That's so good. Oh my God.

Yeah. We have to get our hands on this. You know where we can go? Where? We can go to the fucking museum of television. Ooh. Where's that? It's in Beverly Hills.

You go there, you put, you fill out a card, you say, this is what I want to watch. They take it in. They have a library of like almost everything that's ever been on TV. How did I not know this? Yeah. Yeah. It's right in Beverly Hills. What about the, like one of the last cool movie rental places?

It's next to the New Art and Santa Monica, on Santa Monica Boulevard. Cinemaniac or something? Something like Josh Fatem worked there for a long time because he loved it. Yes. Isn't what I'm talking about? Yes. Cinephile. Cinephile.

No. I don't remember. Yeah. We'll go there. Field trip. Yeah. Class field trip. They won't have it though.

David, you're driving. It's TV-ish. Okay. I think. It's too like obscure. You're right. Ooh. You're going to find this.

Dude. Yeah. All right. Bill dies in prison in 1998. Principal Smith? No. Bill fucking patches. Patches.

Sorry. Bill patches. Dies in 98. Okay. Principal Smith dies a free man. Both maintain their innocence. They didn't even give us the fucking, like, deathbed confession. All right.

But you're ready for the... I've saved the creepiest for the last part because it's the creepiest thing I've ever heard in my fucking life. Okay. And there's a photograph of it online. Uh-oh. All right. So, uh, Bill patches, the fucking creepy lover, dies, his cell's being cleaned out,

and a photograph is found hidden in his belongings. The photograph depicts a stone marker, looks like a, like a small gothic kind of angel stone kind of marker, resembles a hooded figure, worn away kind of. The stone is surrounded by fallen leaves with woods in the background, so it's the middle of some random woods. And that photo alone, it was, uh, it was, they found the cops were like, it was, um, processed before in like 86 before he went to prison. And some people think it's a photograph of the location of little Carol and Michael's

graves, but investigators sent it out and they've been unable to locate the marker as of yet. Oh. So it's like hidden in a forest somewhere. And he had a fucking photograph of it the entire time he was in prison. So he fucking did it. He did it and he knows where the fucking bodies are. And that's his, uh, what's the thing?

We forgot this once before and people were yelling at us. That's his souvenir, his, you know, his serial killer. Trinket souvenir. Yeah. I think it's souvenir, whatever. Or like the thing that they keep. Then I was thinking like, how creepy would it have been if like they'd killed them together and, and Principal Smith had buried the body and he gave it to Bill in like a warning.

Like if you fucking tell anyone what happened, like everyone will know about the dead kids. Here's the photograph of where they, they are buried because of you. Or maybe Bill didn't want them die to die. Maybe, but don't you think like the way those kinds of killers do it, they keep, they keep sakes about. Yeah. Memento. It's about, they love that thing with a positive thing.

Yeah. If it was a threat, it wouldn't be as good, like sneak, he had to sneak it into prison. It's probably in one of his books in his bookshelf or something like that. Do you think that two people did it? I think that only one of these creepy men did it. I think it sounds like they knew they were in on something together. Yeah. They so say it was some weird sex ring that they were involved in.

A lot of money to be split up between them. Who had the money? Well, Bill was going to get all 700, over $700,000 in life insurance money. Okay. Right. So, all right. So say they were in a sex ring, something where they both had information on each other. And it's like patches is like, I'll get, I'll give you 50 grand if you, I have to set this

thing. And this is like, oh, it's almost like a stranger's on a train. Yeah. If you take care of these bodies, I can be out of town. There will be no connection. Right. One of those kind of, but it's a bad plan because it's like, yeah, but I'll work at the same school.

I think that Bill, I mean, I'm sorry, I think that Principal Smith almost seems too obvious because he's a fucking, his children, his children disappear to his heroin addict daughter. And he's robbing banks and shit. It's almost like, why would you also do these other things? Or is it because you think you can get away with that shit, which you almost did. Right. I mean, the robbing the bank thing is insanity because usually if you're a bank robber, you're not going to then have a double life as a high school principal.

It's like, that's so fascinating. And the fact that he owns all kinds of weird sex stuff. Yeah. I mean, that is fucking insane. Yeah. So that's the mainline murders, AKA the Reinhardt murders. And it was sorry. That was Pennsylvania.

Yeah. Wow. Is that, how have we never heard of that? I've never heard. I feel like when you said the thing about the little girls, um, museum pin being under the thing that kind of made me go a little something ding, but I would have remembered all that other crazy stuff. I've never heard of so many weird fucking things in one.

One simple murder about insurance money. Right. I've never heard so many crazy things going on. Well, also if, so she leaves her house with her kids and gets into the car, sounds like it was in a hurry in the hail storm, but I only saw that in like one thing. Okay. Because also late at night, if the, and also if there's a hail storm that may, he went to the beach during hail, like during the winter, he went to New Jersey, which I think,

I think the beach I like looked it up on a map was like four hours away. But I mean, yeah. I know. Why did he pick that? Yeah. If it's wintertime. Why don't you go skiing? Totally.

What are you doing? Like, did he plan the trip? I want to know, like, did they go there often? Did they ever do that before? Yeah. Like clearly there's this thing of like your spouse or your loved one gets killed and you happen to be out of town on a vacation. It's like, you can't have a convenient alibi and expect that to be your only, the only

thing they look into. Yeah. Well, and also because you're, the alibi is about killing your secret lover while you're on vacation with your other secret lover. And then there's other secret lovers, like all that. There's so much going on without talking about Principal Smith and his underwear. If we don't even get into that, there's so much going on. People have a whole episode of the, the, the story we do together is Principal Smith is

an underwear. It is underwear. But, but I'm telling you that final moment of the picture, find them finding the picture so they never see it before. Okay. Just put in mainline writers and you'll see it. How can some, how can somebody on Reddit haven't found out exactly where that is yet? No shit.

I mean, you would just think that people in Pennsylvania would just be combing the fucking forest on the way from Pennsylvania to New Jersey, where the beach, the beach place. Yeah. Like somewhere along that route. So someone go find it and like then we'll fuck in you guys. If murderinos solve this, I don't even mean us, but if like some murderinos solve this and find the bodies, it'll be go out there, go forth and dig. And I mean, this was in 1986 though.

So it's probably not there anymore. But if it's a stone marker and also so creepy, a close up figure, a, also if you find the stone marker, if you find any stalker Channing made for TV, maybe about murder, whether it's this one or another, I'm interested in watching it. Email my favorite murder at gmail.com, putting that, putting the title stalker Channing and the subject line stalker Channing or found the dead children. Yes. It's just so sad that she put them, that she made these decisions out of her naivety.

And yet she's a victim, obviously, but like these kids had no choice, any of it. If she was getting the full sociopath, psychopath hypnosis deal where it's like, you know, like Ricky Tickey Tavi when that snake goes up and you can't stop staring at the eyes. It's that thing where she walked away from a whole life to, to be with this man who was a complete criminal and creeper and was turning it over entirely. I mean, there's, that's what I would like to know about and see up close because, because there's a story there and she probably was a smart woman. Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, that's like one little detail and say that really made me sad was that when he, when he went to court for the $25,000, like from stealing it from her, Susan's ex-husband like went to fight against him. So even after they divorced, he was like, fuck this guy. Yes. You know, she cheated on me, but this guy is a fucking creep in a piece of shit. Yeah.

Like not even trying to get the money himself. He's just like, she's a con man that like hurt the woman I love. She was, he was still fighting for her and it just made me so sad that it's the whole thing is incredibly sad also just remember in the seventies, like women, it's not the parenting situation was so different in that way where it was like having people had affairs or, you know, made these kind of, it was the me generation too, where it was like, I'm going to, you know, I started out as a housewife in the sixties and that was all fine. I get to have a chance to.

Yeah. Why can't I have a life and that, and I'm sure he played out on that and it was, I'm sure she was trying to balance all of that. I hope I don't sound like I'm victim blaming. It's just, I just don't want to forget these two sweet and if you see, if you, if you Google it, you'll see their photos and they're just like these sweet baby angels who just like who knows where they went. They fucking disappeared and they never even got it, you know, funeral from the grandparents

and their dad. It's just, it's so sad. It's horrible. Yeah. So yeah. Mainline murders. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. Well done. Easy. Thank you. I know. Right. Um, mine's a little more, um, well, mine's, mine's one that you've seen now that I'm working again.

I'm doing those ones where I'm like, what do I know really well because I've seen it on every true crime show. Everyone loves those. It's so fun to like recognize when I'm going to be like, yes, tell me about it. So this is one everyone knows, which is the murder of spider savage. I'm sorry. What? Spider savage, he is a famous, um, downhill skier.

Dude, I don't know this. Are you serious? Wait. So this, this is, uh, taken, there's a power privilege, privilege and justice hosted by Dominic Dunn, one of the greatest true crime series ever because Dominic Dunn, the author so good, sits there staring into camera doing interstitial narration and he looks like the most livid individual of all time. It's almost like he's blaming you.

Yes. Telling you what you did wrong. Yes. It's, he's, he's angry at the justice as I'm, he's angry at injustice in general and he's just disgusted, but at the same time he loves like Beverly Hills. Yeah. Like he's a bit of a status guy or he's a bit of, cause he was a famous author, right? So he has a little bit of like, I was at that party and I saw like, he has a first hand

thing and a lot of these stories, but it's not, um, frivolous. He's very serious and he's the one whose daughter was murdered by her ex-boyfriend. Right. Um, which I, did we do that? Yeah. Dominic Dunn. Yes. We did her murder.

Yes. Yeah. So basically he has, he was like, he was played by, I think, Oh, it was so good. Jeremy, um, Nathan Lane played him in the OJ, Ryan Murphy OJ show. So brilliantly cause he was there for the whole OJ thing. Um, yeah, he's, and I think he's mostly a Vanity Fair off writer. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not sure. He's very famous, like true crime writer and writer. Bad ass motherfucker. So if you, I think there's, I mean, I was able to watch power privileged injustice on YouTube, although everyone had the same incredibly deep voice. So I think that's the way they got away with like the last one I tried to watch where the screen was diagonal and it was, you know, it was slightly altered so that you could watch it.

Um, this one, it was like, they basically slightly altered everyone's voice. So it sounded like everyone was in the witness protection program, but they weren't being, they weren't in the dark. Yeah. So anyway, got it. If you can, I don't remember this one. So let's fucking have that and I'm excited that, okay, all right. So roughly around the same time, a year ago, Sunday, March 21st, 1976, Vladimir Peter Spider

Sabich, a 31 year old, um, champion Alpine ski racer, returned home from a training session to Starwood, a gated community in the Ritzy resort town of Aspen, Colorado. Oh, I also, uh, got some of this information from a website called, called shit, shit that 's a grape. I didn't write it down. It was. Shit.com. Don't go to that.

Please. Don't fucking go to that. We can't be responsible. No, it was called snow blitzed or snow brained or so. I'll, I'll figure it out and tell you guys, but it was, it's basically like a skier's website. Okay. Okay.

So, um, he comes back, uh, to his home in a gated community called Starwood in Aspen. So it's like, Aspen, Colorado, as most people know, is an incredibly rich, white ski resort, kind of like one percenter town. Yeah. Um, and this guy was kind of the star of that town. So he, within this rich, ritzy place lived in a gated community. Oh, cause he was like, I'm scared of all you not rich people, I need a gate. I'm scared of you people that only make $600,000 a year.

So yeah, that's, that's like the people who live, they work in Beverly Hills, but they live in Bel Air. Right. Oh, must be nice. Okay. So he was, uh, he was stopping home at his home in Starwood to change, um, cause he had been skiing and he'd gone to a party. Um, he was going to go home and take a shower because he was later on, he planned to meet,

meet his skiing coach for dinner. Um, the chief police who is in this episode of power privilege and justice is talking about how he was in his police cursor. He hears a call come out over the radio that there's been a shooting, um, at Starwood. So he knows that, you know, he immediately races over. Yeah. Cause he's like, these people pay more money to the police department and I know Georgia they're quick.

God damn it. Well, but it is kind of that way. This is, there's the kind of tower if something happens, you know, nothing happens bad there probably. Exactly. So if anything has someone shoots a gun straight up into the air, they're like, we got it. We got to process this immediately. And it is a little bit of like shadows of John Benet in that way where the police don't

have it's like, of course they obviously do technically have this jurisdiction, but rich people kind of do what they want. They lawyer up, they fly places on their private jets and like the police are just have to kind of do their best. Just public servants, yeah, these people who make $800,000 a year. They, their paycheck is paid with the taxes that those people pay. Yeah. Okay.

So when they arrive there, they go to, they find that they're arriving at the home of spider sabbitch, um, who lives there with his live and girlfriend of four years, singer actress, Claudine, lingerie, I have never heard of these people. Are you serious? Never heard of this one. I've definitely seen this forensic file several times and I've seen this power of privilege and justice at least once. I fucking miss this one.

It's a bit of a class. I'm excited. Um, so they find Claudine slumped in the hallway crying. Oh no. And then they walk back to the bathroom, uh, off the master bedroom and they find spider who's been shot in the abdomen and bleeding out on the bathroom floor, um, shot once, uh, already lost a ton of blood and finally the ambulance arrives, Claudine begs the police to let her ride along in the ambulance with him and they let her, uh, which I think these

days, you know, this is the late seventies. These days it'd be like, no, no, no, you're the only person on the scene. Unless it's a kid, probably. Right. But even then, if you're the only person on the scene, it's like, oh, you got to answer some questions. You don't just get to do whatever you want. Yes.

So they find the gun, which is an antique Luger in the bathroom, um, but before they get a chance to thoroughly examine the house, um, they get a call from the hospital reporting that spider savage has died, uh, on the way to the hospital. So, uh, they, the district attorney goes to the hospital finds Claudine and he starts to question her about what happened at the house that night. Can I just say it's a really interesting thing and it's almost smart when people who kill someone don't, they don't die till they're in the hospital because then they have to trample the scene.

They have to put their hands all over this person's dying body to try to resuscitate them. They get them out of there immediately so they don't see how they fall. They don't see details that they would see if the person was already dead when they went into the scene. That's right. You know what I mean? They're still alive. Yeah.

They're still horribly better. It's, it's, yeah. As opposed to freeze this, tape it, everybody stay away, you get out, have time to don't, to not touch anything. Okay. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Um, okay. So the district attorney finds Claudine and he questions her and she is anxious to explain that, um, spider was going out of town. And so he was actually showing her how to use the gun so that she would be safe while he was gone. Oh, sure. And while he was showing her how to use the gun, it went off accidentally. I mean, it could happen.

It could happen. It was an, it was an old antique gun. I have to say that, yeah, I want to know how a gun works if I was going to be alone. Sure. Yeah. Um, well the police are immediately suspicious, um, because these people live in a gated community in Aspen, Colorado. So there, I bet they have dogs.

Yeah. Yes. There's dogs. There's gaits. Um, it's a whole community. Everyone in the whole city makes a shit ton of money or is like a ski bomb. Yeah. Um, who makes, who makes slightly less amount of money.

So they're like, not sure. Yeah. Then they, the autopsy comes back and shows that spider savage was bending over and had his back turned to the doorway when he was shot. How did they know that they're so smart? It was a downward, the bullet went in a downward fashion, um, because it was one shot in the abdomen, but it got his, um, it's a part of his heart. I believe I, I don't know what it written down, but it basically like went down through

his heart. So he's bending over forward with his butt toward her. Right. I believe. Okay. Um, yeah. Okay. So, so the police have no choice but to say that's premeditated and something incredibly

suspicious is going on. So Claudine is arrested. She's charged with homicide and criminal negligence. And she immediately hires prominent Aspen attorney, Ron Austin, uh, who gets her released on bond, uh, which the cops said they knew she was going to get released. That's just part of it. But they were like, cause he was saying you can't arrest her. This is her boyfriend.

She's really upset and they're like, no, we're arresting her even if you're going to take her out of here. Yeah. So it turns out she was married to the singer, Andy Williams, who you may know, he was, he was famous in the sixties. He's the one that sang moon river. He was like a crooner in the fifties and sixties. And he was up there with like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and all those guys.

He was just a little more, he wasn't a rat pack guy. He was a little more white bread. He was like a little more, um, all American. And he had a TV show that for, um, his Chris, the Andy Williams Christmas special for years was the number one rated television show of all time until, uh, one of the Super Bowls knocked it out of its place. Can we watch those in the sessions, uh, after we watch the lifetime of stalker Channing movies?

Yes. Then we go into the Andy Williams specials. We can because his wife, Claudine Lange is on them with him. Wait. Okay. Holy shit. Yes. That's her first husband.

So we're watching this shit out of this. So when she's released from the, from the, um, uh, police department on bond, um, they call up the Aspen airport and have them reopen because it's late at night so that Andy Williams can fly in to Aspen to go and meet her and get her or like, you know, go meet up with her. Um, so that's what I'm talking about where it's like, now we're in rich people territory where like people are kind of doing what they want. Get a fucking airport open.

Give that a try right now. Yeah. Anyone. See what you can do. Yeah. Call over the Burbank airport right now and see if you can find your keys. Uh, okay. See if you can get a fucking phone answer.

See? Listen, do as much as you can and then let us know. So, um, see if you can get the phone so, yeah. So the police go back to the house and they, uh, they get a warrant and they start to search the house and they immediately, and they, some of the cops had seen it when they were originally on the scene. Her diary is sitting on top of the dresser and it's a big like ledger sized diary. And so one of the cops, so the cops are taking pictures of the whole scene and processing

the scene. One of the cops takes the diary off the top of the, of the dresser and is looking through it of like, is this what I think it is, sees that it is realizes it's her writing her most private thoughts. Why the fuck? Why does anyone have a diary? For real. Stop it.

You stupid idiot. Go to a therapist. If you're going to have a diary, why would it ever, ever, ever be out anywhere? No. And have it be a ledger. I think you're that fucking important. Right. Like Claudine.

Well, this is Claudine. We're talking back. I don't think she did it because she sounds really naive. Okay. So while they're processing and taking photographs of the crime scene and of the bedroom, the photographer takes picture of the dresser with no diary on top of it because the cop had picked it up and was looking through it. Then the cop put it back and then more pictures were taken with the diet.

Okay. Love it. Yeah. Okay. Why did I put my paper down? Because you're telling it the best story. I had to use my hands to show you what a book looks like. That was a ledger.

I could tell by the way your hands were. Right. Oh, it was nice. It was big. Oh, yeah. You could see that string that goes down the middle. Sure. So that's, that'll come back later.

Okay. And also there was a couple other things. Okay. So about Claudine. So we'll learn. We'll learn about her a little bit. One, a lingerie was born in Paris. She moved to Las Vegas when she was 18.

Oh, hi. She won Bustar. Oh, Jesus. She's a singer. She's gorgeous. She looks like she has a bit of an Amanda Peat look to her. Oh. Like strong feature.

Yes. But like a flared nostril. Very sexy, but also very soft spoken and had kind of like a soft spoken singing voice. And the woman who, there was somebody that worked with her at the Folie Borgère at the Tropicana in Vegas, which was like the big burlesque show in Las Vegas at the time. And this is before Las Vegas was like cheap and gross. It was like classiest fuck. This was the late fifties or the sixties.

Oh, Jesus. So it was like the best part of Las Vegas or, I mean, like, yeah, whatever, the classiest time. This was when people wore like tuxedos to casinos and stuff. And she became a star very quickly because she was like the French girl, right? Everyone else is like, twist it in around. Someone make a fucking, what's it called? A remix of what Karen just did.

You don't have to. Don't worry about it. Okay. So one night, Claudine is driving home from her, her job at the burlesque show, her car breaks down and then a good Samaritan pulls over to help her out. It's Andy Williams. Oh. So she's the lucky lady.

So hot. So they're married on Christmas Day of 1961 and she's 31 at the time and she's 18. He's 31, she's 18. Yeah. Damn. Damn. This was Vegas in the early sixties. The next year, Andy Williams released Moon River, which is like legendary.

Yeah. All the money. And he was one of the most famous singers at the time. They got a mansion in Malibu. And then in 1963, Andy Williams got his own TV show and Claudine had a baby the same year and another baby the next year, but she still wanted to be a performer. So she would appear on the Andy Williams show with him as his wife. Way to watch these.

Yeah. I've heard so many female orgasms. It was ridiculous. Well, because she's French and she was raised to be in charge of her own orgasm. Yes. And to eat a lot of vegetables. Sure. Okay.

Sorry, I keep bringing that up. It's so gross. Go on. No, it's all right. It's not gross. That's the whole point of our podcast. You're right. Proud.

Proud. Andy Williams Christmas show. Oh, I told you that already. He's basically this guy is like everybody's favorite thing to have on TV because it's easy to have on TV. Like when you, Andy Williams had like a Dean Martin quality, but not racy, not, not drunk, drunkie. He was more like the guy from church.

It wasn't like swar, a what's the word? Swar. Swar. Swar. Swar. Those were all words. Yeah. But he's not that.

No, he's white bread. Dominic Dunn at this part of the privilege, power, privilege and justice goes, I used to see them at parties in Beverly Hills and thought they were beautiful. So they were kind of like a early sixties Hollywood power. Yeah, I love it. They have a third child in 1969. And then later that year, they shock all of Hollywood by announcing that they're getting divorced because on the Andy Williams show, it was all very family and, you know, it was

like the Ozmonds. It's that third child, man. I am that one. You always wreck it. I am the third child. We fucking ruined it. So soon after her divorce in 1969, she takes her three kids and moves to Aspen. That's where spider savage was living at the time.

Spider savage in the sixties is such a crazy name as OK. So he's the local hero. He's the golden boy. So a little bit about spider savage. The reason he has that nickname is because he was born premature. And when his father saw him, he said he was just all arms and legs. He looked like a little spider. So from from a baby, they called him spider, which is the cutest.

He grew up skiing at Idlewice ski area in Kuybers, California near modern day Sierra at Tahoe ski resort. So it's just basically it's basically the, you know, that part of Northern California, but the Mount East mountains where it's all that's kind of what everybody does up there. It's snowboardings and skiing all the time. And he kind of kicked off like in the seventies, skiing all of a sudden got really popular in this way where like everyone, like when I was in grammar school, like high school boys would wear ski jackets with their lift tickets still on the zipper.

It was like that where it was. It was that early. It was heading into the early eighties where being rich got really popular too. Like eyes on shirts. This was the pre eyes on shirt way of having status was like, if you skied because there's like resorts, that's it. You don't go for the day. Yeah.

Yeah. You have to have money to ski. Yeah. Um, so spider, which was like the king of skiing and really like made it popular. He was, um, uh, in 1968, he made the Olympic, the winter Olympic team placed fifth in the slalom event. She is blue eyed blonde haired, good looking, very skilled with the ladies and he was the most famous skier in America in 1971.

That's when he moved to, uh, oh, I forgot to say he torched. This is the from that skiing website. The quote was he torched the ski racing competition in high school and was taken on scholarship to the Colorado university at Boulder to ski with Billy kid. So he basically was, you know, like a little skiing savant. What's up, Boulder? Come on. See you soon.

Uh, so yeah, that's right. Heads up, Boulder. We're going to come ski with you. Never. Never ever. Um, so in 71 after his big successes and he's starting to make money and how he had a ton of sponsors and also you see these pictures, he was just cool looking like he had a real chiseled jaw.

He kind of looked like, um, Dennis Wilson, the drummer for the, but for the beach boys like the hot brother, we were like, what's he doing? They never let him talk. Yeah. Um, he looked like that guy with like, you know, he had big sideburns. I never let him. Well, I can't just like Dennis, he has to say, um, so I was the drummer, uh, so he, he always had like, um, striped turtlenecks on like he was just cool.

He was cool. Dangerous. He was like, um, what's the thing? He was like a beatnik kind of before that was like, yeah, yeah. Like a sunburn cheeks rugged outdoorsy, but then also sexy, super fucking hot. Okay. So 71, he moves to Aspen because it's the place to be for pro skiers and obviously he's the stars.

He's going to be in the middle of all that, but he's 27. He's the richest pro skier on the circuit. And there was a movie that Robert, Robert Redford starred in called downhill racer that is allegedly based on site, spider, Robert Redford. So like totally Robert Redford played him in the seventies. That's how hot this guy was. Exactly. Okay.

So, um, that's when he moved, you know, he's 27 when he moves into starwood. He's his neighbors are John Denver, who was the Q just music star at the time. And the man who owned Sears Edgar Stern, his name was. So Sears plays into both of our fucking murders, Sears, baby. Yeah. Sears was the seventies was all about Sears, Rebecca and company. There's nothing like looking through the Sears catalog Christmas time, trying to figure out what you wanted to get for Christmas.

Do you know that they, there's some, there's a book. There's like three books of it's just Sears catalogs from the 650, 60s and seventies and buying this for you. You know, Waco. Yes. They have all the, this place in fucking Hollywood or like in silver, like has these insane books that someone made, they just made the whole catalog. That's crazy.

Sears ship for sale. I would even look, I would get so like into greedy. What am I going to get? I want this. I want that. Yeah. That I would take it into the curtains area because right after the toys was like the curtains and I want these curtains like I wouldn't end.

It's not greed. It just kept going. I wanted everything for your future. It was just dreams of having nice things. But now you can do it. You have dogs. So you can't. That's right.

They'll rip those goddamn curbs down. Fucking wood. Okay. So yeah, go. He moves to Aspen. He joins the USA's professional ski racing tour in 1970 and he's the best one on it. He's a babe magnet as they would say. And he starts doing celebrity ski racing events that are designed to drum up support

and fans for the US pro tour that he was on because he did like the world cup. He was constantly competing as a professional skier. So at one of those events in 1972 in Bear Valley, he meets Claudine Lange and they quickly become an item. There's a story in that Dominic Dunn show where it was like she saw him and she asked a friend who was also a skier, who is that? And then she like, she was, he was in her sights. She was like, I'm getting that guy for her.

So basically it worked. They got together. She moved into his house, took her kids. They all lived in his house and they became fixtures on the Aspen party circuit. Now this was 1972 Aspen skiing party circuit. So it's all coke. I would pay so much money to go to one of those parties. I mean, imagine like the gold necklaces and the like the tans on the frosty lip gloss.

Hi. And it's, and amazing, like log cabin mansions. Like those houses of like really high ceilings of white shag carpeting. I would, I would kill. And so much coke, like coke to your ankles, just like scoop it up off the ground and shove it. It's like snow. They just ski on fucking coke.

It's snow, snow, snow everywhere. And they are truly the it crowd. So there's a lot of people that actually didn't like her because she moved in so quickly and he was so popular and had so many girlfriends and friends and, you know, got around and was this young, you know, beautiful playboy pro athlete. And she basically got in there and locked that shit down and was like, I'm in your house. We're a boyfriend, girlfriend. So after she moved in, his wild days abruptly ended, which was a hard adjustment for him.

There was fighting. She was very jealous, but she kind of had reason to be at one point. She had to forbid him from attending the best breast bash in has been. Yes, she should have. Yeah. They were, you know, it was the seventies. Jesus. They would do things.

And so this is like these, this inner circle, super rich, like sports partying that they were doing where it's like, well, I'm going to have a party at my house, bring your best tits. We'll line them up. And then a wet t-shirt contest where like the thought of that now, yeah, it was so normal. Yeah. And this was like a voluntary wet t-shirt contest where no one was being paid or anything. It wasn't at a bar.

No. Yeah. Best breast. So he couldn't go. He was mad. She was mad. There's stories of them being at a nightclub, him not paying enough attention to her. So she throws an entire glass of wine at him from across the room.

Jesus. It's all Coke fueled. Yeah. Everybody loves it though. Yes, exactly. And they didn't think Coke was bad for you. And by 1975, their relationship was beginning to strain. He was skiing less, partying more.

She had to stay home with kids, of course. She was intensely jealous of the women that he got to constantly interact with and the women that were totally drawn to him and that I'm sure he was drawn to as well. By January of 1976, he was telling friends he wanted her out of his life, but she wouldn't leave. Oh, no. And they say that a lot of the reason that he didn't just kick her to the curb was because he loved her kids and he really cared about her kids and he didn't want them to suffer

in any way. Yeah. So he kept it going longer than probably he wanted to or should have because he just was so... Been there. Worried about. Yeah. Worried about that, actually.

So Spider and Claudine spent the morning, oh, sorry, by March of 1976, he gave her the ultimatum to move out by April 1st. So he waited all that time and then was like, look, you've got to go. The only reason... I said that already. So they spent the morning of March 21st apart. He was skiing. She was sipping wine at a bar called Little Mel's.

In the morning? In the morning? Yes. Shibley. She was... She was 20 fucking bucks that it was shibley. A nice breakfast wine. She was like, I fucking hate my life.

My hot boyfriend's kicking me out, what am I going to do? My favorite murder line of breakfast wines. Please. They go with eggs? Yeah, you could pour it into cereal. Whatever it takes to get you to noon, to your lunch beer. To your nap. To your lunch beer.

Okay. So later that day, she joined some at a party at the home of an ABC sportscaster. I should have written his name down. It was Bill something. That's always Bill something. But I also love that it's like there's an afternoon party, like whatever. But people noted that at this party, they were not their normal selves. They weren't being warmed.

They were barely around each other and they left separately. A lot of people noted it. So a little bit later that day, she was seen driving around town erratically and she eventually drove through the gates of Starwood at a very high rate of speed. Breakfast wine. Breakfast wine. Fueled. Car rage.

So many times it's gotten me. Shubbly. And then very soon after her speeding through the gates of Starwood, the gunshots were reported. Oh, come on. Yeah. So the ballistics showed that she was standing more than six feet away from Spider when the gun went off. And Spider's father was a highway patrolman and he grew up with guns.

He knew a lot about gun safety and proper gun handling. And he would have never taught someone to shoot inside the house. That's just basic gun safety stuff of you, if you're teaching someone how to use a gun, you don't let them hold the gun and point at you, point it at you be and you don't do it in the bathroom. But also he can't teach her how to use the gun if she's standing six feet away with the gun and he's got his back to her bending over. Oh, honey.

Okay. So they also found small indentations in the cartridge of the bullet, which meant that the gun had jammed and the trigger had been pulled three or four times before it discharged. Uh-huh. No. So at the trial that was in January of 1977, God, can you imagine like, I'm going to kill this person? No, wait, I'm going to try it.

Like shoot. Didn't work. No, I'm going to do it again. Like that many times. Just fucking whine. Yeah. Stupid gun. Yeah.

She just has to stand there like keep trying. And also he's in this, he's about to take a shower. So like is the shower running? He can't hear the clicks. Like he's not, she's so far away, he doesn't even know she's in the room. It's so creepy. Okay. And then the original, like what she claimed.

So at the trial, um, she said that her diary was not out on the dresser, that she had hidden it away in the drawer. And then the defense showed the photographs, the police photographs were at one point, it's there. Or what it starts out not there, then it's there, which essentially the police photographs proved her story that it was never out there in the first place. Um, meaning what they planted it, right, but what, that they found it, that they basically didn't weren't allowed to search because if you have something in a drawer, that's not

really. Yeah. You can't search for it. That's illegal search and seizure. I guess. Oh shit. Um, so yeah, I guess. So it's like considered private.

I don't know. Like it has to be out in open. Right. Everyone hide your diaries go now deeply and between your mattresses. So, uh, also, so, so everything written in that diary, which was all her talking about how the relationship had soured, how he was kicking her out. They had it all on paper from her voice and none of that was admissible in court. Fuck.

Then they mishandled the gun. So, um, when a cop picked it up with a handkerchief and put it into the glove box of a cop car, that's how he, that's how they dealt with the murder weapon. Just like a naked gun into the fucking, they're just like, Murray, can you take this and make sure it gets processed? And he was like, no problem, Murray, that, that fucking tissue that you use to blow your nose on 10 minutes ago. Can you use that tissue to pick up that guy?

Yeah. And then pass it over here. Should this guy that's never, uh, had a job before? Yeah. Essentially the person that ended up taking the car, this cop took those bullets out of the gun. No. And because he was not a trained ballistics expert, all of that information that there

were more indentations on the cartridge was also not admissible in court because anything could have happened when that person was handling the gun. Um, so now the jury can't know that the relationship was ending or that, that, uh, it was a misfire. It wasn't just one accidental shot. The trigger had been pulled up to and maybe more than four times, um, they did use the autopsy report to suggest that when Savage was struck, he was bent over facing away and at least six feet away from her, which was inconsistent with, uh, her story. Um, now as this is, as the trial starts, of course, Aspen's overrun with reporters and

there's, they're everywhere, they're taking up everything there and they're trying to get stories from everybody. The locals, of course, are disgusted. They're not having it. They hate them all. They're not talking to them. Hunter S Thompson lived in Aspen at the time and he was quoted as saying, it's like fouling your own nest because basically it's like, you know, they, her shooting him has basically

ruined their entire community by drawing those people there. Um, also a reporter, a local overheard a reporter saying, this is the best. We have murder. We have sex and we have drugs. Wow. So they were like, oh, there was reporters who were thrilled about this story. Thirsty. Uh, the prosecution arrested after two days arguing that, um, she, that Claudine should

have known the gun was going to go off. Um, and the strategy was because they weren't going to be able to convict her without the actual evidence that they needed, so they wanted to get her on the lesser charge of criminal negligence. Um, the defense put her on the stand and from the first day in court for the jury selection, she was dressed in, um, big baggy gray dresses. She was wearing Peter Pan collars and turtlenecks. She was totally did made, did everything she could to make herself look plain, unpretty

and not like the gorgeous starlet that she was, um, she spoke so softly when she was on the stand that the jurors had to lean forward in their seats to hear her. Oh, that's so manipulative. Uh-huh. When they have to move their bodies to come here, you know, right? And like that she, when she does, there's like a thing where she makes a, uh, after she's, uh, after it's over, she makes this public statement and she's like, I just want to say that, like she really does talk like a little kitten girl all the time.

Uh, so, um, she, she maintained it was accidental shooting. She kept, she stuck to her story. She said she and spider were still in love. He was her best friend. She could never kill anyone, especially not him. The jury deliberated for just under three hours and the verdict was guilty of negligent homicide, um, which meant that she could be facing up to two years in prison, but the judge changed that, um, conviction to, uh, a misdemeanor of criminal negligence and sentenced

her to spend 30 days in the Pitkin County jail and to pay a fine of $250 for taking someone's entire life. Yeah. And there are people that were like that people who, um, like drunk driver drivers get worse, get worse sentences. Oh my God. Um, and they said that the Pitkin County jail in Aspen was like Mayberry with really good room service.

Yeah. It's fucking send me there immediately. They allowed her to repaint her cell pink when, when she was there, but she, um, wow, the critical, the judge said that she had to serve her 30 days in jail, but that she could do it when it was convenient for her. Oh, it's not jury fucking duty. So she even jury duty, it doesn't work that way. Um, yeah.

So it was real. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Real like that. I mean, there's a, you could, you could theorize distantly that maybe someone was on the take that it would, it would end up being that forgiving toward her. Sure. Um, the critical reaction to the verdict and toward her and the sentencing was exacerbated

when she, after the trial was over, went on vacation to Mexico with her defense attorney, Ron Austin. No. Who was married at the time. No. Yeah. Honey. Um, they later married and they still live in Aspen.

Like now now. Well, at the airing of power privilege and justice, like you and I could, you and I and Stephen could call the Burbank airport right now and get on a fucking plane and go meet them. No, the Burbank airport is closed. Not for us. No. Stephen called the Burbank.

Um, after the criminal trial, Sabbage's parents filed a $3 million wrongful death lawsuit against lingerie in May of 1977. That was eventually resolved out of court in September of 1979 with the proviso that lingerie never tell or write about the story. Wow. And Mick Jagger wrote a song called Claudine for the emotional rescue Rolling Stones album. No way. They never released because they found out about it and like basically said, we'll sue

you. Shit. Uh-huh. Lost track. Right. And that is the murder of spider sabbath. I have never even fucking heard that name before. Really?

I think I considered it like kind of a moldy oldie of like, because it's so sensational. It's so celebrity and rich people. I want to see their photos. I want to see all I've never. And so they're still alive. She's not. Let's say. No.

Come on. You said they. No. You knew. Wait. What? Wait. Start over.

Start over. I miss. Tell it again. I miss the middle. Uh, wow. I don't know if she's still alive because I actually, as I was pulling up to your house, it was looking up Claudine lingerie today and hitting things and like, I can't drive. Well, you shouldn't.

I shouldn't. But then also if my, my glasses on, I can't read small print. Yeah. Let's pretend she is. Yeah. That can be everybody else. If you're, and if you're interested in the Claudine lingerie story, go ahead and Google it.

Yeah. And then tell us about it on Twitter. That's right. If there's anything good is, uh, my friend John Levenstein, who I work with, um, is, we were actually talking about it in the room today and he said, I think there was a hoax. There was something about a hoax in that case, but I couldn't. I looked it up in four different ways and I couldn't find anything about what he was talking about.

Where are her kids? This is what I want to know. And can they have a podcast? Well, Andy Williams, when all that started, he flew in and he would go to court with her. He like stood by her and really supported her. And I think maybe just as much for the kids as anyone else, but like there was, there was a bit of a like united front, um, presentation in that way, which always helps the defense when, but also helps those kids.

Like it's not, I mean, at least they had someone, I don't know, and it just makes me feel slightly better that they could go back to their Malibu mansion and go live there and, you know, be and at least have a dad around normalish life. Oh, man, what a boomer. What's your, um, what's your positive of the week? I don't know yet. What's yours? I was so hard telling my whole story for so long.

Um, I was trying so hard to think of it, uh, you know what? It's, we're running errands with Vince. Like he's not working right now, which is great. I mean, he's, he's our tour manager, but yeah, he's working a lot actually. He's working a lot. He doesn't have to go to, he doesn't have to go to a job, which is kind of new for us. And like, you know, they're all these stupid like to get a post on it and then I have to go to the fact can take my prescription.

I have to do this and that and like we go together and then we go get lunch while we're doing it. It's just like, it's so nice. I like being alone a lot, but I don't mind it when I'm with him. I'd rather be with him than alone, which is really rare for me. So it's just running errands with him makes me really fucking happy. Like we did it today and it was just, it's just fucking cool. It's much better with him around.

It's good you married him. I know, right? It's going to keep him around a little bit. Yeah. At least through our tour. What's yours? Um, I'm trying to think. I mean, I love that dinner that we got to go to.

Our friends invited us to a weekly dinner that they do, which was very cool. And it was just like one of those things where I sitting there and it was such good food and it was such a fun, like smart, funny people. And it was one of those, the feel of it. I was like, Oh, this is how a like healthy adults live their life. Yeah. Like you, this is, this is how you're supposed to do it. It's not like you have, when you have a weekly meeting, it's like you have.

Uh, it's not like, I'll see you when I see you. It's like you have this obligation to these people and throughout the week, like however bad your week is, you know, you're still going to see this, these people on Sunday and it's going to be nice. And I kind of like what people, um, make a community for themselves or make like, if you don't have the family around you that maybe either you used to have or that some people, other people do have or don't have, you still set up. Yeah.

Like a community for yourself. It's good. I think it's so healthy for people. It's nice when you turn your friends into family. So thanks Dave clock for inviting us. Thanks Dave clock. And also, uh, thanks for that restaurant and maybe we shouldn't blow it up, but, um, because I, I don't normally like red sauce and that bread, there was a bowl of red sauce that gave

you to dip your bread in. And I was just like, I would like to do this for the rest of my life. And the bread was like insane rosemary bread that was just like fucking the best bread I've ever had. It was really good. That was really nice. That's a, yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Because the first thing I thought it was like, I did a comedy show where I was like, I hated my set and I hate this and then I mean, email mom. And so I don't know. All right. Well, that's, I think that's lovely. Thanks. Um, thank you guys for listening and for being fucking cool as shit.

And we're on Twitter and Instagram and all these places and all that stuff and thank, yeah, thank you. And mostly stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, you want cookie? Wait, you want a cookie? Okay. Bye. Bye.

Bye.