My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 78 - The Freshest Recording

Episode Date: July 20, 2017

On this week's My Favorite Murder, Karen and Georgia cover the survival story of an Austin, Texas woman named Ellen and the case of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is exactly right. in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Interac. Interac has a range of tools to help your business grow. Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified. Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac eTransfer for Business.

Or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus, your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business. Learn how at interac.ca slash forbusiness. Terms and conditions apply. Serial Audio. My favorite. Is that beeping?

Should I go tell the beeping to stop? You don't hear that? There's no beeping, Georgia. And we've started. And breakdown. And Georgia hears beeping. Do you hear that sound of a baby crying? This is not an ad for a new beeper.

For a new brain. We're bringing back beepers. Beepers. Are you a doctor or a drug dealer? Or do you play one on TV? Then you need a beeper. Or are you having an affair and you need a way for your affair person to contact you? What was the affair?

What was the thing of like some kind of a 411 but for hookups? No. Yeah. It was like. I didn't do, I guess I didn't hook up when I had a beeper. Oh, I did. No. When I was an emergency room intern.

No, never. Oh, of course not. You're serious. I'm super blackout drunk in a bar and then I hold up my beeper. Guys, I've got to go. My sugar daddy's calling me. One of my. Hey, welcome to my favorite murder. Hey, welcome to my favorite murder.

Hi. Welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgara. We're here to read to you and tell to you true crime stories from all around the nation and world. And more. And then some.

And then more. And then after that, half a teaspoon more. It's the morning. we've never recorded in the morning this is so weird i had to stay at work late last night everybody got to adjust to my needs so we were supposed to record last night i called and said i'm still at work then georgia you've actually been into this idea for a while i feel like you've been very morning positive about, right? It just feels fun and fresh and like different. You know what I mean? Like recording in a different

place. It feels like a field trip without going anywhere. Yes. School is new again for us. Yeah. And now I can really learn. And it lets me drink whiskey in the morning. Finally. Because I can't do this podcast without whiskey. That's not true. That's not true. But let but let me just i just need to put this out here if you or any of your friends are drinking

whiskey in the morning that was uh the end stage for me right before i was hospitalized i know you're joking what time i meant that i after 1130, you're in the clear. Yeah. I always am like, can I? No. If it's not on a weekend and it's not brunch, although this is like, well, what's weird is that this is going to come out later today. So everyone listening on Thursday, this is this morning.

Are you fucking dee-doo-dah-do-dee-doo-dah? Oh, yeah. Same day. Yeah. First time, same day. This is the freshest recording we've ever released. And it's not your fault. I was out of town on Tuesday and Monday, so we couldn't record like we usually do.

Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Georgia, that means a lot to me that you're in the state. I wouldn't put it on you at all. Because, yeah. That's very nice of you to mention. I didn't even realize that. Georgia, how was that trip, by the way?

Tell the people what you were doing. I fucking had this crazy experience. realize that george's how was that trip by the way to tell the people what you were doing i fucking had this crazy experience oxygen uh had they were gonna have us instead it was just me available and i was like fuck yeah hell yeah um oxygen is turning into true crime network this is not a plug they didn't pay me to do this or anything like that she's just trying to tell her story i really had an incredible time they So they have this like special called... The Jury Speaks. The Jury.

Thank you. You're welcome. I'm your stage mother. I'm very early and I've only had a bullet coffee. You've only had two shots of whiskey. Yeah, so far. So The Jury Speaks. And so I did this panel for press

where I interviewed four of the jury members who were on these like high profile cases where they were really fucking um controversial and like kind of ruined these jurors lives for a while because instead of blaming the justice system that let you know george zimmerman go they blamed the juries for voting the way that they were told to vote which is if you have reasonable doubt and then it it asks the question, like, if you with everything you know, now, would you vote differently? And these people were so they were just normal people who were very affected by these trials by what happened to them afterwards.

How could you not be this one woman who was on the George Zimmerman trial was just such a, she just was so emotionally raw and wonderful. And I really, really, she really touched me. It sounds like it's going to be a good show. I would love to watch that. I watched it. It's I, you know, you're like, I'm so sick of the OJ Simpson trial. I've seen every fucking thing about it.

Well, this is from the jury's perspective. It's all interesting. Which you've never seen anything of. And they explain why they voted the way they voted, which everyone's like, you fucking fuck you. You know, it's the Michael Jackson case. It's really cool. I feel like people were fuck you in the 90s.

And now, especially because of those two things that came out recently. Yeah. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I get it. I'm starting to get it as like a white American. I'm starting to understand what all the things I didn't know. Yeah. I never opened my eyes to before were about. Yeah.

And how unfair it is. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really interesting. So that's what I was. That's great. And it was fun. I bet.

Yeah. Did you get your hair did? I got my nails and toes did. Oh, but like, what about, were you in that makeup chair? I'm saying that's my favorite part of anything. No, for this, I, it wasn't, it wasn't recorded. Unfortunately, because I, the first time in my life,

um, headed the panel. Oh, it was like a live panel. It was a panel for press. And so there was like 50, 60 people in the room that were press. And I was like,

so when you got sequestered and asking, and then the person who made the, um, show is Nancy glass. who remember was the um inside edition blonde woman nancy glass yeah and she's a fucking badass and she was on the panel and she's just been she's won emmys she's just an incredible broadcaster so it's so weird to be sitting there interviewing her wow and i'm like you should be she was incredible and so she made it it's just it's great that's so cool yeah i had a

really good time does that mean she picked you to be the uh the person i don't know i don't think so but she pretended to know who i am and that was i was honored i took a photo with her it was just really exciting yeah she's just this long time true crime investigative journalism journalist host and i was just i was honored to be there awesome thank you first class first class on the way there oh shit on my dime i didn't they didn't yeah i love it how about you who me oh i'm just sitting in a office uh for 11 hours a day talking about what uh fictional characters may or may not do in their lives and why, and if it could be symbolic or any meaningful in any way to other people.

And it's just conversation after conversation. And by the time I leave, I don't want to speak and look at anybody else. Um, I've eaten so much trader Joe's snack food. Um, yeah, I have it really rough.

But first class? First class all the way, baby. The one thing I did want to mention, and we've gotten tons of tweets about, is the fact that they ID'd an unknown victim of John Wayne Gacy. Totally. Cook County Sheriff just made this announcement. And, of course, we got 1,000 tweets about it, which which i love the funniest thing is now all the tweets are did you already get this yeah and it's like i know you already saw this but just in case which is sweet thank

you mommy yeah um so just really quick if you haven't read any of the articles which you probably and they came out today so i'm glad we're recording today. Yeah. So they said, so there's eight unidentified victims. And at the time when they found these bodies, it was 1976. No, sorry. It was 1978. That they found the bodies. I believe, right? Yeah.

I don't have the year. 78 or 79. Yeah. But so eight were unidentified and they couldn't do anything about it because they didn't. They, of course, obviously didn't have the forensics that we have today. And they kept jaw bones. I know. But they so that if people came forward with dental records.

So creepy. Yeah. But back then, like it was dental wasn't a thing that it is today, which is like you take your kids immediately. So not everyone had dental records back then. That's exactly right and that's so this identified victim jimmy hawkinson he was 16 years old when he was murdered by john wayne gacy and his mother actually went to chicago in 1979 to try to find out if her missing son was one of the victims but because she didn't have dental records they couldn't tell her anything they there had no way of knowing anything, but they've continued, uh, to test these,

these, um, the, you know, evidence, the remains that they have. And the cool thing is, so it's 39 years later and Hawkinson's nephew sees that they're still testing remains so he encourages his um i believe it was his aunt and his father to go give the dna so they could test it and immediately fucking murderino he's just like i'm gonna track my uncle down wouldn't you be so fascinated if you had a missing uncle who suspect was suspected to have been at 16 yeah you and i would be i think most people listening would be like i'm gonna track this down but some people would be like this is too hard for my family that they don't want to talk about it yeah it's and it's also when it's just a missing child that's

just like that's i mean it's so sad they just no answer you almost don't do you want an answer because then it's like it's it's a period on the sentence that like maybe he'll walk through the door someday or maybe you know yeah i'm really wanting to know that it's over and that this monster john wangasey is the reason and like his mom let him move to chicago to like start a new life and then they said right that he called her on the august 5th i just read it this morning yeah um when he got there when he got there and they think maybe the same day he got captured right uh well that was all i read was that was the last she ever heard of him so it

was like very soon after i love the way that he really underlined the fact that his family loved him his family had been searching for him this was not you know it's that thing they always do uh not always do but sometimes do the story with victims which is the hitch you know the the hitchhiker who didn't care about their life right the runaway who it doesn't matter what happened to them anyway the sex worker who i mean who really cares is just another victim or it's like he really was underlining this is a family who missed their child their 16 year old boy for 39 years i hope i didn't sound like when i said that they didn't want to know that i don't know if that's true or not but no you're just saying that's a possibility for some

people probably then the grief then you have to like then that's a whole new grieving process and you've learned how to compartmentalize this anyways Anyways, I don't know. I've never lost someone like that. So, yeah, I'm just speculating. Yeah. That's how this show is. This podcast is speculation. It's speculation. I like to lie out.

What was the quote or the like saying you call it or someone called it? The vague postulating? That's vague postulating. Something like serious vague postulating. Yeah. That's what I'm all about. We're just talking about it. Sincere vague postulating that's vague postulate something like serious vague postulating yeah that's what i'm all about yeah we're just talking about sincere vague postulating something um well that's fucked up and i'm glad and then the creepiest part to me was that they they could tell um when it happened based on this like stacking of the bodies oh right like what number victim he was yeah yeah i'm. Can you hold on one second?

There's somebody there trying to break in or clean. Probably clean. But why would they? Or the kitten's doing something which I don't think she is. Sounds like cleaning. I don't think they do that. Ever? No. Look at that fucking disgusting window.

Why would you? Yeah, but how do you get up there maybe maybe there's something going up the side of the building all right well keep this keep this in because someone's trying to break into my fucking house right now okay they left they gave up and then here smash it was a hummingbird crashed into the window that hummingbird's trying to kill me that's what my brain goes to immediately uh yeah so they stacked the bodies and that's he stacked them by like when he got them he just like buried them on top of each other so they could be like he died at this time or this year because the we know the body underneath him went away like disappeared on this day and the one on top of him disappeared on this day so yeah they can it's not creepy what it's the visual is that makes me so sad for these kids the visual of that is what like spark right

my what the hell is going on in this actual world that's exactly it yeah with the bearing of the bodies it was the diagram drawing a diagram of where the bodies were buried in the house and to me to my child's mind i thought he buried them in the walls yeah buried in the house and to me to my child's mind i thought he buried them in the walls it didn't make sense to me that it was underneath so i was just like because i knew my parents were telling me stuff yeah because my parents would always be like we'll tell you later we'll tell you when you're older which nothing makes you want to know more i mean then they tell you that for real and so that was one of the ones anyway it's it makes me happy that they're still working the way they are yeah uh for this that there's something to about that that's very uh

heartening to me can we go back to you never gave me an answer what time drinking whiskey means you're about to Karen out and have to go to the hospital. Let's not call it Karen. I'm sorry. Steven, take that out. No, you don't. You know what it is? It's not time of day.

It's that you think you need it. Why? And you think it's okay. When it's not a choice. Because it moves to a point where it's not a choice anymore. Especially when you're at that point, I was only drinking whiskey. Only. So my friends would, we'd meet at a bar. People's not a choice anymore, especially when you're at that point. I was only drinking whiskey only. So my friends would we'd meet at a bar.

People would get a round of beers. I would have a shot of Jameson's. I would be done before everybody. Of course, mine was smaller. And then I would keep on having shots of whiskey until I was trying to kick the bouncer in the shins for no reason. Party central party. Karen party times. Anyways. All. Party, Karen. Party times. Anyways.

All right. So, 11 o'clock. Right around 11.15. If at that point, I remember taking a bottle of Jameson's off the top of my refrigerator. The second I woke up in the morning, like it was coffee. And as I drank it,

like just took a swig of it thinking, this is very bad oh you knew then yeah but you were like well I'll stop soon I'll stop doing this but today is not the day no I know you know what it was I knew it was bad and I knew I should stop but I also knew I could not stop I knew that how scary it was horrible I'm sorry I thank you congratulations because you fucking did it and you did it well and you didn't you did I'm so impressed that you did that thank you as someone who drinks uh I mean look I highly recommend seizures they're very they are upsetting they're mysterious I tried one at like 12 I gave

it a shot at 12 it wasn't for me no I mean they're not for everybody yeah I really had a seizure at 12 for what uh i don't know my brother yeah i think so my brother and i both had one seizure like around that age and then never again it might have been your brain growth spurt because kids have them when they're seven they have them when they're babies if they have fevers sometimes yeah sometimes when you're seven sometimes when you're 14 Every 7 years When your brain grows And like a hormone release And I had been

Playing soccer all day Probably was dehydrated And I had it in my This isn't interesting I had it in my sleep Which isn't supposed To actually be a seizure No no

That's when I have all mine Oh right That's right They are seizures Did I tell you I was sharing This is how young I was Sharing a bunk bed

With my sister I started shaking Thank god We shared a room at the time She ran into my mom's room and said We were really into The Simpsons at the time And she said, Mom, George is having a cow I was probably younger

Your mom's like, what the fuck And I missed my whole ride in the ambulance I'm so bummed about that Oh, because you were out? It's not that great, it's kind of weird It's not like fun. Like you'd think. It's not as fun as you'd think.

Stephen Ray Morris keeps giving us presents. Oh, no. We get him nothing. You just pulled that out of the envelope a little bit, and I see VHS. You see VHS. This must have cost Stephen. Send us an invoice. Here you go. It's your story. UCVHS. This must have cost... Send us an invoice. Here you go.

It's your story. Here you go. Read it to everyone. Oh, shit. Echoes in the dark. Joseph Wambaugh's Echoes in the Darkness. Everybody, this is the story. A fucking videocassette he tracked down. It's Peter Coyote, Robert Loggia, Stockard Channing telling the story of

William Bradfield Patches. We called him. Dr. J. Smith. Principal. What was his name? I don't remember. Just the principal. The principal?

And then Patches. Missing children with the fucking little statue in the forest. Steven. Oh, guys. A plus. It's such a cool VHS. It's such a VHShs like it like it's a it's such a vhs that i remember from my childhood i mean it's in perfect condition somebody really held on to that tight somebody really yeah somebody dusted their vhs shelf every day what makes me sad is like what

happened to them that they we were able to get this if they saved it that long either they died and their parents or their siblings were like sell it on ebay sell all of dad's vhs's oh can i go fucking dark all the time can i ever go positive because now let's do the therapy now there are four other choices that can be happening here holding our holding our hand up with five fingers every time you think of something that's upsetting that you think is the truth the fuck somebody's something's working on the side of your house okay that sounded like a weird fart didn't it no it sounded like a a noisemaker okay so you hold up okay everyone this is the rule of six rule of five okay no the rule of six

sorry okay so number one is the negative thought so're like. Someone died and that's why we have the VHS. Someone died. It's the only reason we have a VHS. Yeah. Which I kind of enjoy postulating. Of course. Well, worst case. You always explore the worst case.

Yeah. So then the five is like, maybe they had a wonderful life with a wonderful family. Maybe they're not actually dead. And maybe they were happy to let this move on to someone else. Steven, tell us the background of you buying this. Did someone send it to you or was like... Oh, no, I just found it on eBay. But the person sent a letter.

Oh, my God. Handwritten. So they're still alive. And it says, Dear customer, please know I upgraded in bold. At my cost, your VHS ordered a first class mail because I consider you a first class customer. Oh, congratulations. Media mail I consider too slow. I also mailed it in a padded mailer with free delivery confirmation.

I hope I have earned your five-star feedback you have. And if not, please message me on how to improve. Thanking you, Karen with an I. Yes. Oh, my God, Karen. Karen, great job, Karen. Speaking of great job, and this is a present that's not from me, and then I want to read the

letter because this is from a murderino. The letter made me cry. Nice. But it's really self-serving because it's because of something I said on the podcast. Sure. Is that okay? I feel like that's this is podcast. Okay. So, da-da-da-da, Karen Dorges-Stevens, sisters and I are a huge fan

sending you a thing, but I never expected to, but I wanted to share with you a very personal way in which your approach to the podcast inspired and motivated me. Can I just say one thing? What? If you're going to read a letter that's like slightly self-congratulatory, you can't skip through the beginning of their part. But it's long.

Da-da-da, you love me, da-da-da. No. Okay. Well, I'll read it. No, no, no, no. Okay. Well, I-da-da. No. Okay, well, I'll read it. No, no, no, no. Okay. Well, I was going to read the rest. It does look long, actually.

In an early-ish episode, Georgia was making a t-shirt corner update. Karen mentioned how impressed she was, see, this is so dick, by Georgia's tenacity and follow-through in actually making the shirts a reality. And because remember, I was like, you don't have to be perfect, just fucking do things. Yes. Which is my motto. That's right. Georgia went to express how she just doesn't let the fear of messing up or not being perfect

hold her back. She continued to explain the theory that people who make a quality work often don't even start much less finish making things because they're so hung up on being on perfection and fear of failing. It was a light bulb moment. This described me. I went to school for design Currently work in the design industry Yet have been terrified

Of creating personal Passion projects For fear that they wouldn't Turn out quote perfect Gumption and willingness To start t-shirts On this podcast Despite things not always

Being perfect No shit Was so encouraging to me With the mindset Of fuck perfection I successfully created A little bit of jewelry For you guys

And all the other Murderinos out there Who want one Inside the tiny envelopes I'm passing them to you And Stephen I successfully created a little bit of jewelry for you guys and all the other murderinos out there who want one inside the tiny envelopes. I'm passing them to you and Steven, you get one too, even though it's weird. Um, you will find 14, a solid 14 carat gold murderino script necklaces. My first four ended up making jewelry. I drew the script, figured out how to 3d print said script from a mold, a casting place made prototypes then lovingly put each one together by hand they are all designed and made in new

york city um you guys get the first three because you inspired the whole thing and i want to say thank you i had a blast they learned something i'm really proud i made them thank you all for pursuing what you love and for being authentic and hilarious team my sisters and i wish you all the best happiness and success stephan the Sisters Gamble The Sisters Gamble You can get it, it's Etsy, the Sisters Gamble G-A-M-B-L-E-P-S Steven, I don't know if you're into necklaces But I know you could rock it alongside the stache

Hell yeah Steven, you will look so 1975 Oh, because it's gold I mean, I do have chest hair You have a lot of chest hair Live, love, laugh Listen, shave your chest hair into a mustache. Yes.

Do it. Aren't those beautiful? That's really lovely. And that makes me really happy because that's so true. Yeah. Just fucking do what you want to do. You'll improve later. It made me really tear up and proud of us.

Yeah. Not just because of us. We said, fuck it. Yeah. And we it yeah did it it's funny those ideas that seem kind of simple for me they're like just ted talks that i've watched it's like if you go on to the brené brown vulnerability ted talk watch that and then there's gonna be a bunch of other ones that are like perfection ruining shit ruining creativity this that and the other thing you can like there's a whole philosophy of life that you can discover. Oh, I love that.

Yeah. Well, that made me, so thank you, Stephanie. Thanks. We got to, let's see. My aunt actually turned Richard Speck into the police. Maybe we can save these for hometowns. I work with Trisha Mailey. Oh, wait, that person's aunt turned Richard Speck into the police. I wonder if it's the girl that went to high school with him that saw him in the town and country center.

That weird fucking mall in Sacramento. Richard Speck was the one who killed all the nurses in the... Oh, shit. Sorry, I was thinking Richard Chase. Oh, is that right? Oh, Richard Chase was the creepy Sacramento dude. Chase was the Sacramento vampire and that's Richard Speck. Yeah, we should...

This says Georgia, Karen, Steven, Mimi, and Elvis. But we should also give a shout out to the person who made you that cross stitch of the dogs. Oh, that's right. And I want to say right now that Elvis is at the doctor's because we have a new kitten named Dottie. And she got Elvis sick. And I love this new kitten very much, but if she kills Elvis, I'm going to fucking lose my,

how old is Elvis Georgia? He's about to be 13. He's going to be okay. Okay. Uh, I hope my, I hope my subject line grabbed your attention. You guys are the best and make my hour long Chicago commute so much more

bearable. I've gotten countless friends and family members hooked into listening by telling them the Mary Vincent and Sarah Brady stories. But anyway, on to my aunt's story. My aunt is Kathy O'Connor, and she was a nurse at Cook County Hospital in 1966. She always talked about this case when I was younger, but I never realized how much of a connection she actually had. I started reading the book, The Crime of the Century, which is about the Richard Specht murders, and he killed a bunch of nurses in that. He went went into the nurses like dorm and yeah. And one woman survived by hiding.

And in the chapter where they talk about him trying to kill himself and then getting admitted to the hospital, I see my aunt's name. Once I saw her name, I immediately went to talk to her and she told me the real scoop. She was the nurse that treated him when he came to the ER that night. In every report you're going to see, it says that Leroy Smith was the one who saw his tattoo and alerted the police but after talking

with my aunt this week it was actually her that notified that noticed the tattoo on his wrist from a picture in the newspaper she then told leroy and he alerted the police yeah and since this was 1966 and my aunt is a woman she didn't get any of the credit. Down with the patriarchy. Am I right? Now you guys know the real story. All in all, it's fine because Speck was captured and was sentenced to life in prison. But it's still a pretty crazy story and connection. Thank you guys for this amazing podcast.

It's honestly made me more just I'm just like congratulating myself this whole time. It's honestly made me more aware as a person when I'm out alone. Next time you guys are in Chicago, hit me up and we can do a ghost tour or you can talk to my badass aunt. Much love. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Mary Kay.

Everyone in Chicago wants to give us a ghost tour. I love it. It must be a thing. Well, cause they have HH Holmes. They have so many mobs, the mobs, all that alcohol and stuff.

Okay. Well, listen, we're going to read some others that we got. That's what the hometown murder episodes or the minisodes basically are for those of you who don't listen. So, yeah, clearly. Yeah, we have to do.

We have so much ketchup email, but I don't I feel like we don't have time. Yeah, because we we also I think maybe we should do we should do it next week, too. We have to talk about the R. Kelly sex cult. Expectatively. It's crazy because I read the buzz the buzzfeed article this morning it's so much there's so much detail like it'll take us let's talk about it next week okay i have like a list of things i've been meaning to talk about but um but that one is especially interesting because what really freaked me out is r kelly is He is, even though he was, so he was acquitted for 14 counts of child porn.

He married Leah when she was 14 and he was like 20 something, 30 something. And then there was a song called Age is Just a Number. Yeah, which is like, no, that's not true. But also when you start reading these accounts and the way he's keeping and controlling these women uh it's unbelievable and he's just and he's like on fallon and he's like you know why are we being

in someone's funny video or whatever but i think it's still okay with these people chris brown i want to i know it's dated but i want to call that motherfucker out why does he still have a career after beating the shit out of rihanna rih's because when you make people money, the people who get paid because of being, making that money, figure out a way to make it okay. Yeah. And that's what so much of show business is. And because people haven't had a voice before.

And what a lot of, like, there was a reporter at a really tragic quote that was like, this story proves that young black women do not matter to people in this country. Which is really true. And it's a thing that you know we come up against all the time when you're in talking about true crime this issue of of the the race of the victim and how that story gets treated is a huge problem yeah and we're learning as we go but it is it's nothing that we you know like we're just doing our best right but it is it's's nothing that we, you know, like we're just doing our best,

right. But it is, it's a, it's a problem on this level. It's a problem, obviously, in the regular media. It's how we, the story gets presented where you go, well, this thing happened, but it's okay. And then everyone goes, great. It's okay. Yeah. You don't, you don't question your immediate thinking, your immediate snap judgment, which I think is what we need to start paying attention to. Like what's my snap judgment and then questioning is what we need to start paying attention to like what's my snap judgment and then questioning that yes because that's my internal bias yeah that's why you're not ignorant is you think for yourself and and and try to keep on thinking yeah and not shut down not fight not fucking absorb or what is it called take on whatever is being

fucking screamed at you yeah just like swallow whatever the story on cnn is or whatever but like actually try to whatever anyways we're all doing our best um should we get to the murder yeah i think we should okay uh there's now a twitter account that keeps track of who went first i swear to god it made the first time i saw it it made me laugh did you you make it, Steven? No. Steven's like, I'm busy with so much of your other bullshit that you guys make me do.

And I did use it to look up people. Oh my God. Nice. Well, we're hiring them instead of you now. Oh,

that's cruel. Who is it? Me? Yeah, it's you. Okay, I go first. So,

as we all know when I'm working and I'm in the midst and in the mix, and I don't have a ton of time to do my homework, what do I do? I like to retell you my favorite I Survived episode. That's great. Okay, good. Thank God.

No, can we stop for a minute? Karen, I'm going to need you. Go outside. Take notes. Steven. Here's what Take notes. Steven. Here's what's amazing to me. So this one I remembered, and we've actually talked about it very lightly before. But it's one of my favorites.

And when I went to rewatch it, so I could just base, all the information is from this woman whose, it's her story. I'm taking it directly from the I Survived episode. This is basically like if you're driving, I'm telling you when I survived so you don't have to watch it because that's exactly what everything I'm talking about I got from the show I survived.

I tried to watch it actually recently and- It's hard. Yeah, it's hard and it's fucked up. Yeah. Yeah, so I haven't watched a lot of these. What I love about it is it. Hi, I'm Una Chaplin, and I'm the host of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles. It tells the story of how my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many others were caught

up in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Interac. Interac has a range of tools to help your business grow. Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified. Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac e-transfer for business or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business. Learn how at interact.ca

slash for business terms and conditions apply. Electrifies me with people sitting there telling this thing that we only talk, talk about third, fifth hands, you know, so far away, so distant because we don't have the explanation of the victim because they're dead in most cases.

Yeah. And these are people who got through it and turned around and were like, this happened to me. It's not my fault. I got through it. I'm not, you know, I'm like, here's what I did after. And it's amazing. And there are 80% women it's, and the women who are on it, I would say 80% were raped in some way and left for dead in some way. And then there's just some man who was like, well, I took my tractor out. Well, there was one real, the one I watched, the only episode I watched, there was a guy who was in Haiti after.

Yes. And there was an earthquake and he was trapped in the hotel elevator that fell upon him for like 80 something hours. Yeah. And it was incredible. Yeah. But other, you know, he was there to fucking help people. So it's not like he was like,

I hiked into the forest. No. And look, their survival stories are important too, but it's, it's interesting to watch. If you're interested, watch it because you'll see the difference of somebody that's like,

he held a knife to my throat. It's like, they should make two shows. And one of them is these stories of getting lost and, you know, be on your boat or whatever and earthquakes. And the other should be, it's like they should make two shows. And one of them is these stories of getting lost and, you know, be on your boat or whatever and earthquakes. And the other should be, it's like kind of paying tribute to women and men who have been attacked. Right. Yeah.

Okay. Well, I mean, they can do what they want. Yeah. As long as they keep doing it. So I have these things to rely upon. Not to talk down. Right. Yeah.

Look, hey, listen. Okay. have these things to rely upon not to talk down like yeah look hey listen okay so this is what's amazing about this is it's uh season two episode 10 of i survived um it's the same episode as our friend sarah brady who was pregnant nine months pregnant who got attacked by the fake pregnant girls this is like the best episode you've ever seen the best episode my favorite my favorite girl well this woman is on the same episode as her that's insane i was thrilled great it was like a star sighting for me okay so this is um this is ellen halbert's story okay okay this takes place outside of austin texas in uh an affluent area, I guess, in the Hills in 1986, September of 1986. So, um, Ellen Halbert, uh, is in her forties. She's a wife and mother. She's having a run of the mill morning. She's, uh, reading the paper. She's drinking her coffee and peace and quiet.

Her husband is out for the day golfing and her son is at school all day um so you know she eventually decides to go upstairs and take a shower to get ready for her day uh she goes she takes a shower and when she gets out of the shower she grabs a towel wraps it around her she's walking over to the closet to get a robe when she notices something in the corner oh no no no and what's in the corner is a five foot eleven man standing holding the she says the largest knife she's ever seen up above his head dressed like a ninja no can you fucking like you'd be like this my brain isn't working she said she laughed out loud because she couldn't figure out she said she thought it was a joke couldn't figure out what was happening i have chills right now yes it's like seeing a ghost yes but like and

also it's that thing where you know sometimes i get i have like those weird floaters in my eyes where everyone's so i'm like is that a cat like i'm like you're having a seizure karen cat seizure which is like some weird thing passes in your eyeline or whatever yeah definitely you don't turn your head and expect to see a huge cat standing there or what i mean but that's the full body yeah you expect to see a huge cat standing there or what i mean but the full body yeah you expect to see like oh weird i might have she didn't expect anything she didn't even see anything out of the corner right she's just getting out of the shower regular day okay okay horrifying everyone is gasping in their cars right now also his in this ninja, if you're not familiar. Oh, you bet. Every part of his body was covered.

It was black pants, black shirt, head wrap, so that only his eyes are exposed. It's like a karate uniform plus a head. It's karate plus. Right. He's also wearing gloves. So it's just eyes and a knife, basically in the corner of her bathroom okay uh he screams get on the floor uh and comes at her and they start to as she says in the episode tussle which is the cutest and also reminds me of the movie out of sight with jay low and George Clooney. Ugh, that scene in the bathroom. Those guys.

Anyhow, so he pushes her into the bedroom and he backhands her and knocks her onto the ground. She gets up. He does it again. She gets up again and sits on the edge of the bed

and because she's basically naked except for this towel, she pulls her knees up, uh, to her chest to like, try to get covered in as small as she can. And he walks over and drags the knife across her feet. And he says,

I just want you to know that my knives are much sharper than yours. Oh my God. Did he cut her feet or just kind of was like threatening her it says she said dragged across so we don't know so i would think i think she'd say cut yeah yeah you're right he tells her to look down and close her eyes and not to look at him and then she does it he takes his ninja mask off his face and wraps it around her head as a blindfold. Um, and then he says, it's a shame. You can't see me. I'm half black and half white. And I'm a very handsome man. Uh, what a weird power move. Yeah, for sure. Um, he starts asking her how much money she has. She offers to drive him to the

bank. She says, she'll give you a, she'll give him everything she has in the bank. You know, she's bargaining. Obviously she says, let me write you a check. I'll give you everything I have. He says to her, you're going to have a bad accident lady.

Oh my God. Yeah. He holds a knife to her throat. He binds her ankles and her hands behind her back. And I just also say that if someone either lets you see them when they're attacking you or says to you what they look like, then I would be like, oh, shit, I'm not getting away from this to identify him. That's right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very realistic here. So he starts to explain to her what his deal is and basically says that he's been hiding in her attic for two days. So he knows that the husband is golfing all day.

No. And he knows that the son is gone all day. He knows no one's coming for her. He knows he's not going to get interrupted. And then he says, I'm going to rape you. She begs for mercy as a Christian woman. He says it doesn't matter what he does to her because no one's ever going to catch him. So he says, get back on the bed.

And then he rapes her. And when he's done, he goes and takes a shower. And he puts his ninja suit back on. So she now is so scared that he's going to kill her. She doesn't try to move. She doesn't try to move. She doesn't try to escape. He cuts her hands apart. He pulls off the blindfold.

He shows her a check that he's taken out of her purse that he's written out to the amount of $600. And then he tells her to write his name on the check. Troy Eugene Wigley. He gave her his full name. Full name. To write on the check what the fuck so she writes it then he says to lay on the floor in the bathroom in the fetal position and she does it and she says she feels the right side of her head explode and what's happened is he's hit her in the head with a hammer oh no hammer is always my nightmare it's so gross oh my god she feels her

head explode yeah it's so descriptive and she doesn't know what's going on obviously like that's the thing on that show that freaks me out all the time yeah people get shot in the head and they're sitting there telling their story completely regular like it was you or i and they've been shot in the head yeah and when they describe it it's that thing where that because you don't know what happened right it's like all of a sudden there was a weird sound in my ear like the way the the personal experience that's why I'm obsessed with that show yeah it's the personal experience of it I don't think I really understand and that's probably what the show is too, is like, I don't comprehend being blindfolded and how specifically scary that must be.

Like, I don't think about that part, you know, where it's like, you actually are not aware of anything in your life going on. And all you have are your thoughts, right? You don't get to experience it.

I don't think about that. You know, like, yeah, that sounds, I need to, I need to put myself in that position and think about it. Or you don't have to. Yeah, that's true. You don't think about that. You know, like, yeah, that sounds, I need to, I need to put myself in that position and think about it.

Or you don't have to. Yeah, that's true. You don't have to. Okay. I mean, you don't have to. Okay. All right. I feel so obligated to put my, my, myself in these victims shoes so I can.

Well, that's good. I mean, it's about empathy. Yeah. But it just, to me, it's also just medically fascinating. Like, you would think if somebody got hit, if you got hit in the head with a hammer intentionally, you're not going to survive that. No. And people do.

People survive all kinds of shit. Yeah. It's fucking crazy. Okay, so then he stabs her in the left breast. Oh, no. So then he hits her in the head again, stabs her twice in the back of the neck. Oh, my God.

It's going to get worse. Okay. Don't worry. It gets worse. Then he tries to, oh, wait, you stop sipping coffee. Because I'm going to spit everywhere.

He tries to stab her in the skull, but the knife won't go in. I can't. So he hammers the knife into her skull. Oh! All right. I can't. So he hammers the knife into her. Oh! All right.

I can't do this. It's... I also think that Vince is in the other room listening to this all day. I mean, he's horrified by... There's no way he doesn't have earbuds in. Oh, that's true. Because Vince doesn't like true crime.

That's true. You're right. He's got those headphones in. But this is the thing about... And I won't say it again. This is the 19th time I've said it. It's her telling the story. I know.

I know. She's the one going, then he hammered the knife into my skull. I know. So there's that part of it where it's a person who went through this and came out the other side. Came out. Okay. Okay.

Oh, Jesus. Then he, one last thing. Okay. I'm here. I'm here with you. He tries to pull the knife out. It won't come out. So he's shaking her head around. Your hand movement just now. Okay. I'm here. He tries to pull the knife out. It won't come out. So he's shaking her head around.

Your hand movement just now. Okay. He's, he's trying to get it out. He eventually puts his foot on her head to pull the knife out. She can, she feels all this, but then she starts to go out of consciousness.

Honestly, I'm, I'm kind of getting a little woozy right now. Really? Like I'm sweating a little. Yeah, this is bad. This is a bad one. So she's going in and out of consciousness.

She doesn't know where he is. She looks into the bedroom and he's standing there with the, and he doesn't have the ninja outfit on anymore. And he screams, put your head back down. So she stops moving. She's like, and he comes and he pulls her wedding rings off so she's like oh he's gonna kill me for sure she's freezing cold she's lost so much blood but she knows he's gonna kill me so she has to do something so uh he walks away once he pulls

those rings off he leaves and she doesn't know where he is but she decides she has to this whole time she's been in the bathroom yeah um she's like i have to get out of here so she pulls herself along the ground out of the bathroom through the bedroom and pushes herself down a flight of stairs to get downstairs to the phone oh my god and she gets to the phone she what drove me insane when i watched this for the first time, she called her parents. No. But I don't know if it's because it was 1986, so maybe the 911 system wasn't in place entirely. Yeah, maybe it was like so rural.

Or maybe her brain just wasn't functioning correctly and the only phone number that could come to her was her family's childhood home. That would make perfect sense. I remember mine still. But... Oh, you gave the area code too. Shit. That would make perfect sense. I remember mine still. Oh, you gave the area code too. Shit.

Well, whoever, call someone. No, don't call that. Can you bleep out part of it, Stephen? We're so proud to know our own phone number. I know that we give out our social security number. Okay, so basically she goes out of consciousness for a little while. The next time she remembers anything, she heard her father screaming he he came in with the emts so they all found her kind of together they load her up and she hears two emts talking over her about how she's not going to make it oh my god that's in her head she's like i am too going to make it

that's when she like turned fuck yeah girl it's so awesome and she's just basically like this man is not going to take my life from me it's not happening that is amazing so uh they take get her to the hospital um she has so many stab wounds uh she needs over 600 stitches oh my god um i think in the end, she ended up, he stabbed her over 30 times. He was 18 years old. Troy Wigley was arrested at the bank trying to cash the check that he forced her to write to him. He's convicted of aggravated robbery. He's sentenced to life in prison.

Oh, thank God. Yeah. I looked up his name i looked up her i looked up a bunch of stuff to try to find out what that was about yeah because it sounds like one of those things where if they didn't have evidence here or there they were just trying to get him on something that stuck blah blah blah but to me it's so insane if she's been stabbed multiple times yeah why aggravated robbery is what he actually gets convicted on um right because attempted murder for some reason isn't treated as murder it's not murder right that's why it's not treated as murder no but that drives

me crazy i know but it's not i know i know they have to be two different things. I mean, they just do, but so she makes a full recovery. It takes her years of pain and hard work. She said she spent a lot of time in denial about what happened to her. She spent months crying, obviously, uh, who wouldn't, um, she had multiple surgeries for all of her, uh, wounds. She developed a lot of stress related illnesses that lasted for years because of the trauma. Her marriage crumbled. She was left without a job or money. But she was determined to come out on the other side stronger. What an amazing woman.

So she realizes she has to get help. So she gets counseling and she joins a victim support group. has to get help so she gets counseling um and she joins a victim support group amazing and she decides that her first goal that she has to set goals for herself so she can recover like she has to make it a step-by-step process so her first goal is she's going to release all the rage and anger that she has about what happened to her um because she uh that's, that's how she's going to get better for herself. Um, and then she starts to speak out for victims rights and what needs to change in what are, what is what she calls our offender focused criminal justice system. In 1991, she's appointed, um, by then governor and Richards to serve on the Texas Board of Criminal Justice, and she did it for six years.

Holy shit. It was an unpaid position. So while she was there, she started it, and it went from part-time to full-time, and she just started doing all kinds of research on the Texas criminal justice system, on victims' rights, on rehabilitation for prisoners, as opposed to just punitive, you know, lock them up and throw away the key. In 1996, both the Texas Corrections Association and the Texas Crime Victim Clearinghouse established awards in her name to recognize her work on behalf of crime victims. Because of her tireless advocacy for rehabilitation of offenders and her dedication to the victim's rights, in 1995, a 500-bed

female substance abuse treatment unit was named after her. Oh, my God. In 1997, she won the National Crime Victim Service Award, the highest federal award for service to victims. In 1999, she was named

one of Texas's Women of the Century. Holy shit. And in 2001, she was named one of texas's women of this century holy shit and in 2001 she was the mediator uh for a court tv documentary called meeting with a killer one family's journey which was nominated for an emmy in 2002 how have i not watched that uh court tv maybe it's just old yeah yeah um and ellen halbert is presently well presently at the time of the article that i was reading so might not be right now but she is uh the director of the victim witness division at the district attorney's office in travis county texas what an amazing human being isn't that fucking nuts that i yeah i'm trying to focus on that part instead of the other parts. Because I feel.

Yeah, I think that's the point. I feel nauseous. Because it's so funny how when it's a survivor, I feel like we've, I think we're both in the mindset that like, don't get too disgusting and graphic when it's someone who's died. But when it's a survivor, you can explain everything that happened because they survived that. Well, because it's her story. Right. So it's the way she tells it. survived that well and because it's her story right so it's the way she tells right and she wants to tell it the way she tells totally totally yeah that's how she wants it to be told yeah so yeah that's insane and amazing and what a fucking inspiration and badass motherfucker. Yeah, she's rad. Yeah. Wow. That was incredible.

Mine isn't so good. Great. Mine is not so positive. All right. I'm not going to tell you the name of it because you're going to fuck. Oops. You're going to know it pretty quickly. And yeah.

June 12th, 1977. Nearly 140 Girl Scouts arrived at Camp Scott. Here we go. Amazing. The Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. This is so fucking awful. Yeah. And there's a lot of stuff I didn't know about it.

I think I've kind of known the murder part, but didn't know what came after it. So they arrived at Camp scott a sprawling heavily wooded property southeast of locust grove in northeast oklahoma and the girl scouts had been coming to this spot every summer for 50 years three months before camp was supposed to start what just sorry that idea 50 years of historical 9 to 11 year olds in the woods yeah it just immediately made me go like there's somebody that knew they came back every year there's somebody that like yeah knew the knew they would be there at that time yeah did i and i went to girl scout camp in a situation incredible like probably exactly the same setup as this story

and this camp so i can picture exactly what happened sorry i just remembered when i was doing remember when i did that um casino gig with julian mccullough it was in oklahoma oh yeah the woman who who was the booker for that casino which was the best gig it was so much fun and i'm so sorry i can't remember your name off the top yeah i will get it eventually um drove me by the street you turned down to get to this girl's no which is now closed yeah or maybe they turned it into something else but we drove all around where she was like you want me to show it to you and i was like yes i do want you to show it to me. But we couldn't.

It was like too far. She was like, it's basically over there. Yeah. Because it's the middle of, you know, big flat. I think there's like a long walkway. I think that's called Cookie Lane. Three months before camp was to start. I think they're having like all the counselors come and learn what they're going to be doing.

April 1977, a counselor at camp, Scott Scott had found that her tent had been ransacked and her donuts were stolen. And in the donut box, in the empty box, was a note warning that three girls would be murdered at the camp in the future. No. Yeah. I feel like I'd never heard that before. Yeah.

Everyone wrote it off as a prank Yeah So June 12th 1977 First official night of the two week stay At Camp Scott The night is a big thunderstorm So they don't have their usual activities Everyone kind of just hunkers down

Into their tents So they had like It was like the canvas tent material But like a wood floor. Yeah. Um, that's actually when I went to camp, that's what the tents were like.

Yeah. Yeah. They called them cabins. Right. That when I went to Girl Scout camp, it was like that too. Um, and you're like shitty cot bed and stuff.

Yeah. With your itchy fucking, uh, what's it called? Sleeping bag. Yeah. It's all very uncomfortable. Like it's fun at first and then

you're like i my bed is way better yeah and taking a shower you're only allowed 30 second showers yeah i think there was probably a drought at the time and so they timed the showers and they literally shut off 30 seconds it must have been like 45 seconds or something like that still jesus they're like we're teaching you how to conserve water, but it's like, teaching you how to be dirty. Yeah. Um, I hated it. Uh,

so they hunker down for the night. It has no lights in any of the cabins. They just have flashlights. So tent eight is known as Kiowa. And in that tent, usually it was four girls to attend. No counselor counselors in any of the tents. The three friends are Lori Lee Farmer, she's eight, Doris Denise Milner, who's ten, and Michelle Guse, who's nine.

They're all from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Tulsa. And Kiowa, their cabin was located the furthest from the camp counselor's tents. It's about 86 yards away. And it's partially obscured by the shower for the camp. So it was like the most remote cabin. And 86 yards is like almost a football field. Is it? I didn't know.

A football field is 100 yards. Yeah. So it's like, that's so far away. It might be feet. I heard it was one of those things where like in different articles i read different things oh okay it might be yeah yeah that happens all the time where you're reading this exact same information but that happens all the time where it's like is this person's name jerry or james right but it just changes per article or someone

in reddit is like this is wrong and you're like but i wouldn't be you know those the way those things are like set up to make them more like in nature. And 86 feet is still a long way off from responsible. Not even for nine and ten year old. But there's probably 16 year old girls who are counselors. So it's and you can see like they have a layout online to show exactly where it is. And it's absolutely on its own. So.

OK, so that night it, there's a book called in the camps called the Camp Scott murders by CS Kelly. He says that two counselors had been frightened by two men at the camp that night. And some campers said they saw a man in army boots behind a tent. This there's so much-shit at 1 30 in the morning someone hears moaning out near camp kiowa everyone's in their tent carla a camp counselor she checks out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning but it would stop whenever her flashlight came near also around 2 a.m the tent flap of tent seven is opened. Three of the girls inside are sleeping, but the fourth girl stated that she noticed

a beam of light moving around the interior from outside with a silhouette of a large figure behind it. And then she says the figure moved off toward tent number eight, which is Kiowa. Nora just came back from camp. Your nine-year-old niece? Ten.

Ten-year-old niece. I mean, this is rough. Can you imagine? Okay, well, imagine getting this call, your sister getting this call. Don't imagine it, but. No, I imagine things like that all the time. Yeah, I know.

It's so hard not to. That's like the, isn't that just the standard thing of like, oh, yeah, for a while, I told you that. For a while, while i couldn't stop doing it i finally had to call my sister and i was like i can't i just can't stop imagining something but my sister goes oh yeah i do that all the time yeah i do it all the time and i was like oh okay she's just like too bad that's how it is yeah that's when you love a child that's what happened that's what that's part of it. I get it. So, all right. Moaning sounds are heard throughout the night, throughout the camp. At around 3 a.m., a girl in the Cherokee section across the wards heard a scream coming from the direction of the Kiowa cabin 8. And here it says it was located about two city blocks away.

And she heard moaning. says it was located about two city blocks away and she heard moaning. A girl in another cabin also heard a scream and the scream, the cries she said sounded like mama mama. Someone yelling mama mama. I know.

The next morning, 6am June 13th, a camp counselor's on her way to the showers and she stumbles upon a horrific scene at near near tent eight how old she's probably six it's a camp counselor oh a camp sorry i didn't hear um so the night before somewhere between two and four in the morning someone had cut his way into the tent here it gets horrible yeah he bludgeons and rapes laurie and michelle

um they had been struck and killed in the tent while they were sleeping and they had been bound and uh and then they bound or the person bound and gagged doris and took her outside raped and strangled her as well so then the two girls who are in the tent are like stuffed into the bottom of their sleeping bags um and their sleeping bags are pulled to where doris is on a path about 150 feet away from the tent so all three girls are left together on like a trail um goosey and farmer sleeping bags had blood their bodies and were inside they had bloody bed sheets that had been used the killer tried to wipe down the blood that was on the floor of the cabin which is so weird um and they also found a roll of black duct tape

and a flashlight the murderer had discarded i was thinking like was his blood in that blood and that's why he was trying to clean it up who know yeah yeah there was bloody bed sheets um it seemed like after the attacks he tried to cover his tracks yeah which almost seems like he was panicking well and also then hey don't leave your flashlight yeah it sounds like he was pan. Maybe can't realize what he had done. Tried to fix it, you know. Okay. So four days later. So police come.

They, you know, they clean up the scene. And four days later, you know, there's this insane manhunt that starts like the biggest manhunt in Oklahoma history. Four days later, police find sunglasses belonging to a Camp Scott counselor and a boot print print that matched the one found at the scene in one of the caves that says the killer was here bye-bye fools and then the date um 6 17 77 they also find tape plastic bags plastic from a garbage bag similar to that wrapped around the flashlight found next to the girls and a newspaper from the same edition as the piece discovered um in the flashlight left next to the girls. And they also find two photos, they find two photos of women. The photos are determined to be from the wedding of a prison guard. And they're traced back to a man named Gene Leroy Hart, who had been working at the photo lab in Granite reformatory and had developed the photos of the

wedding of the prison guard when he was serving time for kidnapping and first degree rape convictions in 1966 so he had these photos of these women some for some reason left them behind and they were able to trace them back to him okay Okay. But they, so that means he developed these pictures because it was his job at the, at the prison. Yeah. But those pictures were never given to the prison guard. He probably made make copies of them for himself. Maybe there were two pretty women and he wanted to keep the photos of women, but it's not the prison guard is in the clear. Yeah. It's not the prison guard. Yeah. So we'll talk about Gene Lee Roy Hart. He's a 34-year-old Cherokee Native American. He's 5'10", weighs about 200 pounds.

He's pretty built. He's like a thick dude. He's got black hair, brown eyes. He was born and raised in Locust Grove, which is right next to the camp. He was a high school football star. He was bright and popular. One of his teachers said he just wasn't the kind of kid you would have thought would have turned out bad. But he was an immediate suspect. At the time of the murders,

he was on the run from police because he had escaped jail in 1973. He was 22 when he was arrested and accused of abducting two pregnant women from a Tulsa club, raping one of them. And he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three concurrent 10 year prison terms, which is 10 years. As we know,

three concurrent tenure terms is 10 years, not 10 years. Exactly. Which is absurd. He's paroled after for raping and kidnapping two pregnant women. He's paroled after 28 raping and kidnapping two pregnant women. He's paroled after 28 months. He's arrested again in 1969. This time he's charged with four counts of first degree burglary.

Please not guilty. He's found guilty. And for this, this and his past crimes, then he's finally sentenced to a maximum of 305 years in prison jesus so you know that judge probably was like a gas that he got out so quickly for rape and kind of threw the book at him maybe yeah guessing maybe the only problem is that if he was set up for the first one then his i don't think that's the only problem well i know you don't think he was. Well, he pled guilty to that. I know. Lots of people do that.

I know, I know. So he had grown up a half a mile north of Camp Scott. There were other suspects, including a convicted rapist named Bill Stevens. A couple who knew Stevens said he borrowed a flashlight that matched the description of the one left in the crime scene a few days before the murder. And he showed up with what looked like blood on his boots. He told them he experienced car trouble in Locust Grove. He denied everything. He said he hadn't been in the area,

but a scout at the camp testified that she had seen a man who looked like him at the camp. But they still focused on Hart. The manhunt would go down as the largest in state history took an entire year to catch him. He was just cave to cave house to house, um, on the run. So they found him in April, 1978. He'd been hiding out in the area. Um, and each cave, uh, really released they,

each cave had clues and evidence related to the Girl Scout murders. So they, you know, confirming to police that he was their man. They also had, they found a mirror and a toy pipe, which another camp counselor testified had been taking from her tent. He went to trial for the murders and faced three counts of first degree murder. He was acquitted after just five hours of deliberation. three counts of first-degree murder, he was acquitted after just five hours of deliberation.

So this whole community of people and so many people in the community rallied behind him and thought it was a setup, that the evidence had been planted, that he was a good kid. The, of course, Cherokee Indians, not of course, but they backed, they didn't come out as saying they thought he hadn't done it but they said they were giving him money for his defense um to support him because as an american and uh native american he they didn't think he would get a fair trial unless he had the money to represent himself which obviously is true but they said specifically this isn't we're not saying we think he's innocent or guilty. They just wanted him to have a fair trial. Exactly. Right. So, um, because probably in that area, the go-to thing is if something happens, why don't you go look on the reservation? Why don't you go look at a native American? Exactly. Yeah. Um, and all the other suspects that they

had and that are still around were white. So they just went out. It seemed like they went after him. Yeah. But he was acquitted. Everyone in the courtroom cheered, which if you read articles, the three families of the three killed girls were just so devastated when people were cheering that he got off. Of course. You know?

And the jurors ended up saying there were too many loose ends, too many things didn't add up. One juror said none of us knew whether he did it or didn't. We were shocked that they didn't have more evidence than what they had. So they just couldn't convict him. But because of his previous jailbreak and his earlier crimes, he was taken to prison to serve the remaining 300 years of his previous rape and burglary convictions. So he's taken to prison anyways.

Three weeks later, in 1979, at 35 years old, while jogging in the prison yard, he dies of a heart attack. Uh-uh. Some people think he didn't do it or that he didn't act alone. There's physical evidence left behind in the crime scene that was recovered during the autopsy that indicates that two offenders were involved in the crime, including two different knots being used to tie up the girls, which I think is always kind of a weird sign, right? And the girls were separated and died in different manners. always kind of a weird sign right and the girls were separated and died in different manners um evidence presented at hart's trial that was used to rule him out included a footprint in the

blood of the floor of the cabin that is a size 10 hart's feet were closer to an 11 and a half there's also a fingerprint on the flashlight found at the scene that wasn't hart's which i don't think is that weird you know it's not like one person would have held that flashlight period you know there could have been a lot in the life of the flashlight yeah exactly um then a bunch of dns dna tests have been done on biological evidence from the crime scene since the murders throughout the years there's been nothing conclusive that has come, although in 1989, so of five aspects of DNA tested from the scene, three matched some bodily fluids that were taken from heart. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples of that fluid. But because there were only three instead of five matched,

their results were officially deemed inconclusive. But an analysis of sperm samples showed that only 0.002% of the population met the characteristics contained in the evidence and heart was included in this. Wow. Yeah. So those numbers are way huger than one in 77,000 or whatever. And if they had that technology in 1979, maybe he would have been, that would have been enough evidence for the jury. They kind of went on all circumstantial evidence.

Because they had to. Because that's all they had. Right. Which, you know, it's almost like if they could have waited to have, you know, a lot of times they'll wait to have more evidence to bring them to trial. I don't know. Yeah, but you can't wait years. Yeah, but he's in prison anyways. Yeah, but he's in prison anyways.

Yeah, but it's a speedy trial. That's true. And the families wants justice. You can't be like, yeah, we'll cross our fingers that good science is coming. Also, because back then, I think they had no idea the kind of forensics that were going to eventually exist. I mean, sometimes they're like, like in the 80s, I feel like they are finally like, well, this new technology is coming out. A lot of times you hear on like forensic files, let's wait until

that technology has, you know, every, every year, I feel like there's a new way of testing some fluid or some stain that they weren't able to do before to extract a different strain of DNA. I don't know if I sound like, I don't know what i'm fucking talking about but i mean yeah pretty standard yeah not like science i think this is what we do we're just basically repeating what we watch on forensic files right and other shows that tell us about dna vague postulating and you know what's so interesting is in this trial, they used things that are now discounted, like hair samples. They found a hair that they said matched him. There was another thing that they found that they said matched him that now wouldn't be admissible in court. Is it a fiber thing?

Probably fibers, yeah, that now would never be admissible in court. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's still kind of weird. Let's see. Members of Hart's Native American family also accused the police of going after Hart because he's a Native American. Many people said that the sheriff of town was really vindictive because Hart had made him look bad for escaping twice. I just spit. And being on the lam so long.

He was on the lam for four years, which makes the sheriff look really stupid. So he tries to throw the book at him. Wow. And a former prosecutor tried to turn the killing and Hart's arrest into a position as a state attorney general and to write a book about it. So for monetary gain as well. So that's kind of their proof that he was railroaded. Yeah.

well. So that's kind of their proof that he was railroaded. Yeah. So after he died, authorities didn't pursue that many other suspects after the killings of, and I want to say their names again, because, you know, they're kind of ignored. So Laura Lee Farmer, Doris Denise Milner, and Michelle Gousset, no other suspects were really pursued or arrested. And then all the parents went on to do all this, of course, victims advocacy. They were all, you know, they all are interviewed and ended up being these incredible people and doing good things afterwards. But when the sister of Lori, when she went back to school after the murder of her sister, two years after and after he had been acquitted, her heart had been acquitted, she wrote a school, and this is just so sad to me, she wrote a school paper,

and in it she said, One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, except for my family. Oh, no. I know. And that's the story of the oklahoma girl scout murders isn't that sad it's so sad these little girls also to me it's just like that crime this is all i think about who knows what really happened like the idea that someone hides in caves when they're on the lam is the perfect way to set somebody up to put shit in a cave go

find a cave why would you this is like jack the ripper stuff why would you write on the wall yeah if you did this thing you would cover all your tracks and get the fuck out yeah i'm gonna go writing on the wall bye Bye bye motherfuckers. That's a date. Putting the date, a date. And like, yeah.

And so you were taunting the police unless you were taunting the police or unless the police were trying to set somebody up to perfectly match what he'd already done in that kind of making a murderer way, which is like, we don't like you. We don't like your type. We're going to take care of business. Yeah. And we've been trying to find you. We don't have any more

budget to put into this, but if you're the child murderer and rapist, then we can put all of our resources into finding you. I was just going to say the only problem that I, I mean, obviously the thing that makes me upset about that, then if that, if that is what they're doing, if their agenda turns from finding the person who did it into getting the person that has shamed them or whatever fucking problem there is, then we still have a person who stabbed three nine-year-old girls with a fucking knife and raped them walking around the world. Yep. That's the problem to me. Yeah. And so it's one of those cases where I don't know if he's guilty or not, but I could argue

either way, you know, that the evidence was planted in the caves or he was taunting them. You know, it's either one is plausible. And then arguing like I hadn't thought about what you said, which is, did he not commit those rapes? If he committed those rapes to me, it's obvious that he was also capable, you know, of this crime. of the ropes being different knots because of them being separated and, uh, and being murdered in different ways. You know, two of the girls were immediately knocked unconscious and left in the cabin

and one wasn't, you know, it's, it's, it's weird. It's all different. Like MOs. Yeah.

Yeah. And they, people argue that, um, that, uh, how would, how would one person be able to handle these three girls, which I think is a bullshit argument because two girls were unconscious. But not only that, we know that these predators can scare especially small girls into obeying them or else.

Richard Speck. Yeah. It was eight, I believe, off the top of my head. The nurses. Eight nurses, fully grown women, who he got to all stay in a room while he took them out one by one, raped and murdered them. And the woman who was hiding was just like, you don't understand. It was he had a gun and he kept being very soothing or whatever.

So being able to control people when you are the attacker is, I love when argue that shit we're just like what are you fucking talking about we're not sitting those people weren't sitting on a couch drinking coffee casually they were they said if you scream we're gonna kill your family yes like or we're gonna as simple as that we if you scream i'll shoot your friend over here that kind of stuff i mean that i hate that argument so that i think you can't really but other little things like the different kinds of ropes it's just it just feels like if there's ever a murder that should have been solved right you know three 10 year old girls at girl scout camp they should have fucking figured out the

best way to figure out who did that well i, I feel, and they're also doing more, they're, they're continuing the DNA testing. So as it does get more advanced, they're trying. The case is still open. Yeah. And they are like sending different kinds of, um, like the new swabs they can actually test. They're still doing that. So there still might be an answer one day. Don't you think it's possible? Now, you you know i'm love to devil's advocate and i love to go like what is the thing that isn't being thought of or something yeah the idea that he's jogging in jail and dies of a heart attack at age 35 yeah is interesting to me not that it isn't

possible and there's some people that have congenital heart that's what they said you know he's got that runs in his family. He was really out of shape. But 35, definitely. Then why is he jogging? Yeah. Oh, he's going to, you're going to, now you're going to get it all together once you're fucking in jail. Yeah.

You know what? I got it. I'm going to lose this last 20 pounds. That's definitely a good argument. And it's the thing of like, if the DNA does come back to him, which it kind of seems like it did in these other ways people are gonna say well it was planted so I think unless it comes back as someone else doing it no one's ever gonna fully believe that he and conclusively believe that he was the killer right you know what I mean yeah but but then hearing that he got acquitted is just so, if you believe it was him, is so heartbreaking. And I think the families all believed it was him.

Of course they did. The girls. Yeah, they wanted to. Of course they did. But then. But also it's that, it makes me think of the Memphis, the West Memphis Three. Yeah. When you have the perfect person who did it, you want it to be over.

Yeah. You want it to be over. Yeah. You want it to be over. And you also want to show everyone that, or the, you know, the police force and the FBI was there every, you know, there was a huge manhunt,

uh, for a year. You want to show that you have done your due diligence and you've caught the bad guy. Everyone can stop being afraid. Cause can you imagine your, for a year this person who has no problem raping and sodomizing a fucking nine-year-old is on the loose yeah in the neighborhood then i you know you have to look at all the photos of the three

girls they're just these sweet baby angel like young sweethearts and then i look at the photos of them with their siblings and it's those poor, you know, I feel so bad for the victim, but the siblings too, you know, the rest of their lives must have been so horrifying. Yeah. It's not something you ever get over. Right. Especially when you go and have children and you see your own nine-year-old daughter and, you know, how can you imagine someone hurting that person? What a fucking monster. Yeah. Yeah. They've got to figure out a way, minority report style. Totally. To figure out who these people are conclusively. I feel like that's what I feel like instead of making for profit prisons, maybe people, it should be like, can we just actually focus on so that when these people exist in society, we figure out a way to find them and make sure they don't do this to people.

Well, yeah, we brain scan them. And that brain scan tells us what they're capable of, what they're lying about. Even if they're a sociopath, you can still see that, like, what neurons fire when they're lying about what even if they're a sociopath you can still see that like the what neurons fire when they're lying listen if they have a memory of this crime if their brains are see-through like those fish from way down deep in the deepest depths of the ocean what are their brains made of are they made of goldfish crackers? Are they just a ton of tiny knives in there? If there are tiny knives, then it's a tiny murderer. Is there a tiny murderer in the brain controlling it with controls?

If there is, let's get rid of those people. Let's put them all on some kind of leper's island. Great. This has been a serious waste of time. Thanks, everybody. No, it hasn't. Maybe we'll change everything. No, we'll change nothing. This has been a serious waste of time Thanks everybody No it hasn't Maybe we'll change everything No we'll change nothing

No there's lots of people working hard to change things I think for sure We hear from people all the time that are like I'm going to fucking criminology school I'm a victim's advocate All the time It's very cool And I think like that

It's that idea that Instead of letting politics get in the way. And money. Let's catch child murderers. Let's catch adult murderers. Let's catch child murderers before they child murder. But then we're getting into some really... Predictive. Right. Well, that is what Minority Board is about.

Right. Which is like that and great graphics what's the ethnicity about and tom cruise it is best oh my god for the fucking downhill you guys who are younger don't remember that tom cruise was a heartthrob you don't remember it was 2010 seven years ago though oh my god that's seven years ago seven years i know that's i know i mean it's time goes by i gotta go to work okay that's right you have to go to work oh my god how is that weird this is coming out in two hours yeah steven sorry for the delay i'm sure we're gonna get i'm sure steven's gonna get and already has gotten lots of messages when we were texting yesterday about is it okay

if we do it in the morning and steven's like, yeah, but it's going to be late and people get upset. You know, we should let them know. And then I said, okay, just tell them it's your fault. Stephen! Stephen! Tell them you did it. Stephen! It's all me.

Stephen. Elvis can't meow on this one. I know. Where's the kitten? So you can hit it in the face. I know I was going to make her meow. Listen, I love her. Fucking Dottie. She's an angel baby.

Once Elvis is home. Hold good thoughts in your mind and prayers for Elvis for his quick recovery. So you can come back and eat cookies and meow with us soon. And until we see you again, stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Bye!