My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 8 - Eight Is Enough Murders

Episode Date: March 17, 2016

This weeks topic is weird ways to die including cursed movies and the Coronado Mansion Death. Plus a ton of personal anecdotes from K&G and a hometown murder from Mr. Georia Hardstark, Vince Averill. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Here we go. You ready to talk about murder? Because we are. Because we are murderers. Hi, everybody. Hey, this. Hi, guys. Karen and Georgia, this is...

My favorite. My favorite murder. Murder. That's probably the most uncomfortable part for me Is when we're talking not to each other But to the audience It's very unnatural We're like introducing something

And clearly we haven't rehearsed this at all No, we don't have any radio experience We're not professionals in that way Hello everyone You say a word and then I say a word And we'll go back and forth my seeing menon yes exactly did you say by menon no that's how good we are at this we don't have any kind of instinct toward what the other person's doing

and we always guess wrong yeah and we talk over each other it's perfect there we are and yet and yet we have a thousand people on the Facebook group. One thousand. I know this is episode eight. That's a very high number. And none of them are sexist, racist jerks yet. I hear now I'm not on Facebook. Brag, brag, brag.

I know. But from what I hear from Georgia, everyone is the coolest on our Facebook page. They're all like, it's all these people that feel like they've come home and they can finally talk to someone about murder and like, like their their husbands and siblings and everyone thinks they're fucking weirdos for being in the murder and then suddenly they found their people god bless you all someone even said hey and anyone in the new york area want to have a murder meetup and i'm like that's how you get murdered don't do that but that's very sweet of you yeah that's how you get murdered. Don't do that. But that's very sweet of you. Yeah. That's easy to misinterpret for, for in any direction.

Yeah. Either be murder everybody or have a murder meetup and then just murders. You're going to get murdered. I would just be super clear with the wording in that. Yeah. I'd also like to say that we have, uh, nothing to do with anyone who gets murdered because of this podcast.

We refuse the right. We reserve the right to, to not be culpable into perpetuity. Exactly. Those are two legal words that I know that was legal as fuck. It felt pretty great. We have a, we had a murder meetup today.

We ate lunch before this recording. We both had eggs. It's pretty nice. And talked about, talked like about the Simpson show, which we're calling the Simpsons, the new Simpsons, OJ, the people versus OJ Simpson. And we talked about that extensively. I feel like I could talk

about it forever. I do too. I mean, they are killing it. Everything literally. It's so great. It's so great. And I was telling Georgia that Patton Oswalt, everyone's favorite standup comedian is now on Twitter, actively sarah paulson for her performance as marcia clark nothing makes me happier do you think his wife is a little built like get off of my fucking this is my my murder is my thing yes and you're kind of stepping on my toes right now like if she were going to become a stand-up comedian all of a sudden i i you know what i picture michelle mcnamara is just always in the other room with her sleeves rolled up trying to solve crime in real life and that's why she's my hero she is such a badass she's like you can tweet

whatever you want yeah because i'm in the real world that's adorable i'm being a fucking investigative journalist over here go talk about your uh murder show that happened 25 years right that people from american horror story are acting out now yeah it's adorable um i have a okay is there any little part of your brain that is like open to the idea that oj didn't do it no okay just making sure i understand why people think that and want to believe it um but i don't think that you can beat your wife up for years and years. And I think he beat his first wife up too. Yeah. Like you,

that as a pattern and as a, as a, you having explosive anger and violent reactions to things. Plus, as we all are starting to learn the concussion element in football, that lots of football players have these problems that could truly stem back to like mental issues rage issues I don't think that that just kind of stops at a certain point like yeah I don't I don't think that's a controllable or all of those things happen and then just some stranger

comes and kills these two people that yeah it doesn't it wouldn't make sense right especially with all the evidence there would be blood evidence that would have they i honestly believe that that defense team that was just going to town would have found other blood and been like what about this guy yeah because that's they were doing they were scrambling and they got him off i mean like incredible it's an it's amazing so if they if there was another person i trust that that dream team would have been like here's the person here's their name here's their blood like here's why we think that yeah that's that's a very good point yeah okay but also i know there's just bias because i really love the fact that i lived through it and now i'm watching it on tv i know isn't it it's funny when they're, they'll be like a dramatic turn and you're like,

Oh, and you're like, wait, no, he still gets off. Like, you know, the outcome,

you know, the end. Yeah. But yeah, it's still a great, that's, that's the testament to the show is that it's so good. Yeah.

And they're telling you the things you don't know about it. Right. Which I love. The only part of it that I am not into is, is OJ Simpson. Like, uh, what's his name? He was good in journey as O he doesn't look right he doesn't I can't picture OJ Simpson when I look at him right for so many reasons someone just texted me that they saw Tracy Morgan when they went when he

talked when Cuba Gooding Jr. talked like like Cuba is playing tracy morgan who's playing oj oh you know what i mean but but somewhere in there tracy morgan is well very few men look like oj simpson that that would have been a really hard thing to cast i think yeah i guess i just i wish someone was he was bigger you know who should have played it who shamar more who's that criminal minds oh he used to be on a soap opera and the reason i know him so well is because uh when i worked on the ellen degeneres talk show anytime there would be somebody would drop out like if there was an emergency they would always call shamar more because he was an amazing guest he was usually available because he was on criminal mind so he's always in town yeah and because he was on a soap opera he had the crazy

high q rating so we'd get spikes in our rating holy shit even though he wasn't like famous famous he was like beloved wow yeah yeah i i would like to see who who was on that like audition list and if cuba good and jordan just got picked because for what whatever reason well because he is a good actor yes and like those times where he's in jail and like yeah there's great he's pathetic moments but yeah he just doesn't look right yeah he has this great this great you feel bad for him because he clearly doesn't understand what's going on yeah um i like that character he's playing but it doesn't feel like oj simpson to me right well because there's too much yeah He seems bewildered and confused, which might be an act that like there's a reveal later.

Right. But it's, um, I believe that I want to see someone that's a little more, uh, going with the story he's being given. Yeah. Knowing that he's,

he has an out after having killed two people. Yeah. Jesus. But maybe that's just my agenda. No. I think that's true. And I feel like this week in The Simpsons, we open every episode now. Because it's so good.

I hope everyone's watching. Exactly. And the idea that you decided to call it The Simpsons is my favorite thing of all time. Should we talk about our favorite murder? Yes. So this week we were doing Strange Ways to Die. Yeah. Originally we just shot out the idea, weird murder weapons.

Yes. And I just like Googled that and it's just like really boring stories. Lots of one-offs, which I'm not interested in. Like crimes of passion where a woman kills a man with the stiletto heel where it's like, well, yeah,

but that's just crimes of passion. There was a good one of a, of a guy who was like clearly grooming a 10 year old boy to be like his, he was going to child molest him. Yeah. Um, and the guy, the kid one day was like,

fuck this and took a pickle jar and smashed him over the head with it but then he stabbed him to death so it's not like the pickle jar killed him right you know it just stopped him for a second yeah and that's the amount of the story i could like that's the story so i would have had no story to tell well yeah there's um when it comes down to it i was thinking oh i bet i could find a serial killer kill people like a bow and arrow or something. Right, that's just in the movies. But yes, exactly. When you're reverse researching

stuff like that, just stuff comes up. I was also thinking of there's a person I want to talk about in the future who is the Sacramento vampire killer. He's so creepy, but when he actually killed people, he just killed them with guns. Exactly. So it all boils down to boring weapons.

Listen, if you're a killer out there, you got to get a little more creative if you want to make it onto this show. Yeah. How about you do one of those? Like in, um, do you know what I'm talking about? In the line of fire, John? No, I always do that when I think I know the end of a story. Yes.

John Malkovich makes a gun out of wood so that he can he gets the metal detector and he can oh the president really makes a gun gun yeah that's cool no i was gonna say in um in uh one where he he i can't remember he kills people with the cow air gun yes oh no country no country country for old men. No country for old men. Thank you. The best. Yeah. Something like that. Someone needs to not do to us.

That movie is so fucking perfect. I've seen that so many times. It's gorgeous. And I don't like movies. Gorgeous. And the idea that you would kill someone that way. Yeah. It's so fucked up.

It's so fucked up. And it's like not necessary because guns. Because guns. Yeah. It's so fucked up. It's so fucked up and it's like not necessary because guns. Because guns. Yeah. All right. Do you want me to go first since you went first last time? Sure. But what if we have the same one? Well, I would be shocked because here's what I did. Okay. Oh, wait. So

the topic is now weird ways people have been killed or died. Yes. Okay. So here's how I'll just take you down my thought process um murder journey on this week so last week when we were talking about oj simpson we started talking about dominic dunn right which i fucked up and said she got killed the wrong way we both did because i immediately agreed with you but here's the thing so i and we once talked about this we were going to have a correction section when we go through because a bunch of people

tweeted us at us to say yeah dominic dunn was killed by her ex-boyfriend who was stalking her but she wasn't killed by a fan you are thinking of rebecca schaefer from my sister sam we exact that's exactly true it's what we were but i thought of the exact same thing and i was right there with you now so i went to look it up to be like okay here's going to be our correction well it turns out that it was they were very very similar murders they were both actresses uh dominique dunn was 22 rebecca schaefer was 21 oh my god um both murdered at their homes dominique dunn was murdered by her ex-boyfriend who was stalking her and who she was trying to be like reasonable with and she actually the creepy thing to me about her

murder is that she was doing everything she could to like stay safe. And there was a guy, she had her friend over watching TV with her when the ex-boyfriend showed up wanting to quote unquote talk to her and made her come out on the porch. And so the guy was like waiting inside thinking everything was fine. Yeah, because they're outside. They're outside talking. Then he doesn't see them then he goes out around back to see if they went into the backyard finally comes around front and sees the ex-boyfriend standing over her strength he has strangled her to death how are you how do you know if someone's going to be like a stalker lights light or is it a murderer i mean i think

the lesson we're slowly learning is that like if you have an abusive boyfriend you have to break up with him and not get back together with him. Not like you have to cut him out of your life completely because that's, it's the, that's the mistake. I mean, not to say that she made a mistake, but she did get back together with him once and then you give him the idea and an opening to be back to think that he's back in your life and has a way to do it. And he's just, yeah, that he can convince you. And he doesn't stop,

which is clearly not the woman's fault. No. But we need to be able to not let them come back in our lives at all. Well, and in both of these cases, it's that thing of women being polite. Oh, my God. It's women thinking they're afraid to be a bitch

or they're afraid to make a strong stand. So in Rebecca Schaefer's case, it was a stalker who'd been stalking her for three years and who ended up hiring a private investigator to find her home address.

And so that was actually after her murder between that and the Teresa Saldana attack, which she didn't die. That was the woman who's the co-star of Raging Bull who ended up getting attacked

by her stalker. That's both of those. It ended up changing. They created the first anti-stalking law in California in 1990, I believe, because of those two things. But those two things were totally parallel. They were just seven years apart, but they were almost exactly the same.

So I was, because I was like, we both made the exact same mistake. That's weird. And so I wanted to like look into it. And that brought me down the same. So I was because I was like, we both made the exact same mistake. That's weird. And so I wanted to like look into it. And that brought me down the road because Dominique Dunn is most famous for being a part of movie cursed movies. Is she poltergeist? Yes. She was the teenage sister in Poltergeist.

When she flips off the fucking construction workers in her backyard. And I was a kid. I was like, I want to be like that when I grow up. Yes. And both of those girls were very like, there were girls that when you watch them on TV or in movies, you're like, I know that girl. Yeah. Like total girl next door.

Yeah. So I went into cursed movies, cursed movie thing. So that's my thing. That's not what I, that's bad-ass. Okay. So poltergeist, the trilogy of movies,

they've had all these deaths and tragedies associated with the movie. Love this show. So I'm just going to walk you on through. And then I have two other ones. Okay. Get shorter as they go. No, I dig it.

But we start with poltergeist. So Dominique Dunn was murdered five months after the release of poltergeist one, start with poltergeist um so dominique dunn was murdered uh five months after the release of poltergeist one the original poltergeist okay um and then poltergeist two um julian beck was the guy that played cain that super creepy preacher um and he uh died of stomach cancer at age 60 right after that movie came out. That was in 1983. That was Poltergeist 2. That came out in 83? Yeah.

How did I watch that? Okay. What do you mean? Because I just remember, I feel like I remember seeing it in the theater, but I must not have because that's too young for me to have seen. You would have been too young? Yeah. Well, there was three of them. Yeah. Have you seen part three where they were in the theater but i must not have because i was that's too young for me you would have been too young yeah well there was three of them yeah i've seen part three where they were in

the apartment building no maybe i maybe we got it on vhs oh okay okay go on then in 1987 will sampson um who played in in poltergeist 2 played taylor the medicine man the bit who was the big silent indian in one flow for the cuckoo oh Oh yeah. He's incredible. Yeah. He died of sclera sclera derma, which is a degenerative, um, uh, chronic degenerative condition. Um,

that basically he ended up like having kidney failure and all this stuff. So he died and he was only 53. Man, there's just like so many ways you can die. Like if you, if you want to think about it a lot, there's just, there's all these things. There's all these things. If it's die. Like if you, if you want to think about it a lot, there's just, there's all these things.

There's all these things. If it's not murder, then it could be a disease. It could be some weird gene just clicks on. It's not, it's not could have, it's gonna, well,

there's gonna be something. That's really what it is. We're all taking time off. Okay, go on. Then the one that, that got this idea of this movie is cursed going is heather work because she died when she was 12 years old it was um 1987 uh the same year as will sampson and it was um before

the release and they some people say before the ending of the shooting of poltergeist three so she was the little girl but she's like the main character in poltergeist she's in the middle of shooting yeah she's the little she's in halfway through shooting the third one yes i think more than halfway through but they some people say they can't get it confirmed that there's a body double for the rest of the shooting because she died and it was they had diagnosed her as having Crohn's disease. But what she actually really had was a bowel obstruction. So she got the flu, went into septic shock and then cardiac arrest. They, they rush her to, I think it was Cedars-Sinai. Holy shit. And she died on the operating table.

So that's like a simple thing that could have been fixed. Yes. And she was just misdiagnosed. So that's, and she was only 12. So that's when everyone started freaking out that there's something wrong with this yeah like this whole movie is cursed yeah um then a guy named lou perryman who played a small part in the first uh poltergeist pugsley um he was in 2009 he was murdered by an axe wielding ex-con who broke into his apartment. Oh, my God. Just flat out horribly murdered.

Why him specifically or it just happened that way? They think it was just somebody trying to rob him. But he like the guy had an axe and then just ended up killing him. Or it was a cursed movie. Or it was a cursed movie and it was just a man possessed by a demon. That's crazy. Okay. You know, it was just a man possessed by a demon.

That's crazy. Okay. Then Richard Lawson, who played the parapsychologist Ryan in the original. I liked him. Yeah. And he's been in, when I looked on his Wikipedia page, it just went on and on. He has been in a million things and he still is like up until like 2016, like release pending. Like he's been in everything. Yeah.

And he was on, he was in a commercial airline crash where there were 51 people, passengers on the plane, 27 of them died and he walked away. So more than half the people on the plane died and miraculously he walked away. So that kind of is like, you know,

it's, you know, say a tragedy associated, but it almost is kind of is like you know it's you know say a tragedy associated but it almost is kind of like well that freak accident it's a freak accident that he didn't die in so it's almost like well maybe he ended the curse if i were him i would never leave the house well but or would it be that thing where i survived a fucking plane crash that other people didn't that's true i'm invincible or whatever that's true um but also turned out and joe beth williams talked about this in an interview she did once that she found out after so you know that huge crazy scene at the end where they fall that they

fall into the pool and there's all the skeletons those were real human skeletons that they used why apparently that a rubber skeleton remake is more expensive than just using real ones. Who gave them skeletons? So they probably bought them from prop houses or whatever, but a lot of people think that that has something to do with it. But then also, they say that the remake

that they just came out with my boyfriend Sam Rockwell that they shot it on a house that had a big field behind it so they could kind of like recreate all that stuff and apparently they couldn't get any of the electronic stuff to work

in this field they were using drones to shoot overhead shots couldn't get any of the electronic stuff to work in this field. They couldn't get, they would, they were using drones to shoot overhead shots and the drones wouldn't work. They wouldn't register the field. I'm getting chills. Yeah. So there was like,

there was a thing where there, there was all kinds of problems and weird shit going on on that set. Oh my God. I'm like going to throw up right now. Well, then that brought me around. That brought me to a cracked article, which if you don't go on to cracked.com, you're crazy. Oh, my God.

The best website. It gives you listicles, but they're written so hilarious. So well. And it's like BuzzFeed for smart, funny people. Yeah. And it's like the topics they do are just absolutely incredible. Like the 10 scariest mysteries that cannot be explained or like, Oh, I love crack or like 10, 10,

um, YouTube videos that are actually what they say they are. Right. Truly scary and crazy. Right. Yeah. Cracked is amazing. So that's,

that led me to this list and they had, it was like six cursed movie sets, but I only did, um, cause the next one that that turned me onto was the exorcist. Oh shit. Which it makes, you know,

like, Oh, it makes sense that this is, yeah, it's not like, it's not like my fair lady was cursed. It's like fucked up movies like the Exorcist. And this one's crazy.

Oh my God. I want to hear, I don't know this. Um, so it's, Exorcist was shot in 1973 or came out in 1973. It was shot the year before. Okay. Um, shot the year before. Okay.

Um, so the first, I'll just start here. The shooting was delayed after the set caught fire. So there's a set of their house. If you've seen the movie, if you haven't seen the movie, you have to,

it's the scariest movie. It's so seventies. And it's so like, it's not scary because things are popping out. Like it gets scary obviously later when she's possessed but in the beginning it's just all tone and feel where you're just like lighting lighting and music and yeah tone and when they bring reagan to the hospital to see what's wrong with her there's a part where she's in like this mri machine thing that is one of the

scariest things and it's just medical equipment yeah there's nothing actually happening but it's like you know they just did it perfectly no man they don't need drones to make a fucking movie cool anymore right i mean so this set caught on fire for no reason the only thing that they can figure out was they thought maybe a pigeon landed in like the breaker boxes like the electrical boxes oh my god but but other than that they couldn't figure out a reason why it would catch on fire and the only room that didn't burn was reagan's room which is where all the possession demonic shit takes place at the end of the movie i'd quit the movie at that point it didn't didn't burn everything else in the house burned which is insane so shooting was delayed because of that okay then and i read a

couple a couple different versions of this story but the one that seemed the most consistent was that it happened to ellen burston so there's a scene where when reagan is totally possessed she throws her mother against the wall and in the movie she gets thrown against the wall falls down and there's this blood curdling scream well it's because ellen burston the way it happened she like like broke her spine and the scream is real oh i hate i feel like there's so there's like a scene in jaws too i feel like in the 70s and 80s they were like let's just use it we we like didn't do that right and the person is screaming because they're in pain exactly and it's like what better kind of blood-curdling scream as opposed to like somebody standing in its recording yeah like screaming it's when they're like a scream of her spine breaking they're like it's realistic because it's real because it

happened my god that's awful and also this was one of the first movies um that ever used subliminal subliminal recordings that's fucking awesome part of the other reason that it's such a freaky movie is because subliminally they're playing tapes of bees of swarms of bees buzzing bees and lions growling like before they eat something so like in your in your like your brain in your old brain you like understand you can hear these like emergency emergency get out but it's like in the in their lead-up part i love that it's not even like subliminally like a baby crying or like subliminally someone getting stabbed it's like subliminally shit that way back when when we were fucking animals yes we needed to be afraid of run away run away there's bees yeah love it and also there's that part where um when caris sees his

mother coming up out of the sidewalk, out of the subway. It's that part where she had died and he didn't see her and he has all this guilt and he keeps dreaming about her coming and like crying for him across the street or whatever. In that scene, and I've actually watched it and paused it. They just flick in for half a second. This horrifying face. Yeah. And you can look it up online it's great it's like it looks like a really white face with dark black circles underneath and red

red in the eyes and red in the mouth i'm gonna cry i'm gonna start crying right now it's crazy creepy okay so so okay um then let's see oh so the actor who played the director so the plot of the movie ellen berson's an actress and she's in this movie and so all the shit starts happening while she's in this movie and she has to quit the movie right well the director of the movie is played by an actor named jack mcgowan who died days after completing his scenes of the flu. What? And he was 54. What the fuck? So just kind of strangely, randomly just dies of the flu.

What is this fucking? Then the woman who plays Karis's mother, who is in that thing of like, she's an 89 year old Greek woman who literally got cast, like I think out of a restaurant, a Greek restaurant or something. She died of natural causes, like days after

Jack McGowan died. They died within like six days of each other. And they're the two characters in the movie who die. Oh, fuck. So then these are the other tragedies and deaths.

Linda Blair's grandfather died while shooting. Max von Sydow's brother died on the first day he started shooting. Holy shit. And he plays the old priest that comes to father Karis. Jason Miller, who plays father Karis, his son was hit and almost killed by a motorcycle during shooting. Jesus. Mercedes McCambridge. I think that's how you pronounce her last name, did the voice of the demon when Linda Blair is possessed.

In 1987, her son murdered his wife and children and then killed himself. Whoa. Which is 10, 15 years after all of it yeah still like it's just the the curse thing where it's like how many movies can you say have this many like a crazy tragedies and hideous things yeah um and this is the best at the premiere in rome uh they're at this theater and across the street is a 16th century church and as the people are filing in to the movie premiere yeah a rainstorm and lightning storm starts going no everyone's in the theater and before the movie starts they hear this crazy noise outside lightning had struck the

cross on top of this church no it had been there for 400 years and this eight foot cross falls off the church and into the plaza across holy shit yeah that's not god being like nope yeah or the devil being like how dare you yeah you try to fight me so that so the last one is rosemary's baby oh i knew it because i was gonna say it sounds like the plot of Rosemary's Baby, which is that like, you know, the actor gets stricken with blindness to get a role. OK. Yeah. So, yeah. And this is if you look it up and there's you can find plenty of websites because there's a bunch of other ones.

And there's a really good one, but it's not even cursed. It's just there's that movie. I think it's Genghis Khan. I don't remember what the title is, but it's the John Wayne movie where they ended up using, they shot like five miles downwind from where they were testing a bombs in the desert. So everyone got cancer. Yeah.

Every fucking buddy got cancer and they took dirt from the set where they shot like on a location and tested it. And then they took it back and used it in the studio set. So like everybody got cancer. Oh my fucking, I love shit like that. I mean, it's,

you know what I mean? It's so terrible. It's just like the worst mistake anyone's ever made. Yeah. Like that, that is the most toxic dirt. Yeah. You don't want that shit.

I thought you were going to say they tested it and they found that it was, nope, they used it. Nope. They brought it back and used it yeah geez yeah and also the also the um the female lead in that movie was attacked by a black panther sure the real animal yeah not the not a political i figured i figured you would i figured you wouldn't i figured something would be different in that saying yeah a real got attacked by a panther and that the funniest

thing to me was that that was like a one-line thing like i would like to know more about this like where was she what happened what had the black panther had for breakfast like i want to know everything so insane so on rosemary's baby and this is a short one but just the man who was the composer um died of a brain clot a year after filming which is the same way a character in the movie dies didn't he die that way in the movie yes oh the composer of the real composer of the movie in real life died of a brain clot the way the guy in the movie died holy shit and then of course we all know roman polanski yeah who uh bought the house from Terry Melcher, who was a music producer who would not record Charles Manson's music. And so Charles Manson sent his death

hippies up to murder everybody thinking he was going to kill Terry Melcher. And he ended up killing Roman Polanski's wife, Sharon Tate, her unborn baby and four other people, Jay Sebring, the famous hairdresser. Um, and polanski was in london at the time so he just by chance missed that i didn't realize that there was a reason they went to that house yeah i think i thought they just went there because wasn't it the heir to the the what was it the coffee fortune that lived there uh folgers oh yeah uh i don't i mean it was roman polanski's house though i think yeah she was there but i thought they went there to like because it was rich people i didn't realize

they went there because manson was like you and me you wouldn't this is how he talks you wouldn't record my music amen amen yeah oh i didn't know that reason but then once they were there they didn't care yeah they were just like we're killing all these people right but here's what i find interesting about that is that um that they called the manson family called that helter skelter that murder spree which of course was a beatles song and then john in 1980 john lennon was shot in front of the dakota the same apartment building used as the exterior of the apartment building for rosemary's Baby. No. The end of my thing.

I'm just going to kick my glass of water over right now because I can't even handle any of this. I'm just going to, I just want to kick it. There's so many good things like that, but that's, I mean, I kind of went way off our theme. No, but there was a line. It was a linear narrative that started with a murder. Yes. That we had talked about before. Exactly. So I deemed that okay. a murder. Yes. That we had talked about before. Exactly.

So I deemed that. Okay. Thank you. Good. And also it makes me just want to say, we love it when you tell us if we make mistakes. Yeah. Because this conversation can be so dense.

Yeah. Shit we're talking about sometimes that obviously I definitely make those mistakes all the time. We want to hear it. If you're like, Oh wait, no, that's not right.

And we're only, I mean, Karen and I really only researched the ones we're going to talk about so if we're just randomly going off on a tangent about something else we're not going to have like be looking it up at the moment in the moment yes it's called research and we're not doing it so you're so we want you to definitely help us and add because yeah once i i saw a couple people be like i remember very specifically when she was murdering stuff. So then I was like, oh, yeah, we should tell that story accurately.

Yeah. That then led me down that path. Just don't be mean about it because we have very fragile self-esteem. We will just fall apart if you're mean. a range of tools to help your business grow. Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified. Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac eTransfer for Business. Or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus, your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business.

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and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. So this is the murder of Rebecca Zahu. Zah-how? Zah-how. I'm going to say. What's the spelling? Z-A-H-A-U. Yeah, Zahau, I'd say. Rebecca Zahau. And it's also called the Coronado House Murder. Have you heard of this one? No. Okay, I'm going to start from the very beginning. I'm going

to start from the house murder. Yeah, this one's fucked up. This one I've, I think I followed it as, as it was happening because this is what happens first. The morning of July 11th, 2001, six year old Max shack. Now's shack. Next shack.

Now six years old takes a fatal fall from the staircase banister in his historic San Diego mansion called Spreckles Beach House in Coronado, California, in San Diego. His father is a pharmaceutical CEO named Jonah Shacknow. And the 911 call comes in from Jonah's 32-year-old live-in girlfriend, Rebecca Zahow. 32 years old, Burmese. She's a live- 11. She lives there. She calls 911 to say that Max was running down the hallway above the lobby-like entrance to the house when he went over the banister. He suffered spinal cord injuries and head trauma and was in a coma.

Ultimately, he dies 10 days later from swelling and cardiac arrest. And the medical examiner determined that the cause of death was accidental. And there's, if you go online, there's actually this like, um, drawing of what, how he must've fallen. And it's like,

it's, you know, like a mansion spiral staircase, fucking lots of, you know, marble and wood. And he went over the side. Yeah.

Okay. Acc Yeah. Okay. Accidental. Okay. Well, here's, so while he's in a coma, Rebecca goes to pick up Shaq. Now his brother,

Adam at the airport, who's there to like, you know, sit by his nephew's bedside. Um, he flies in from Memphis and Adam, who's the CEO's brother is staying in the house house, in the back house while he's there. And that night there was reports of really loud music coming from the house that night.

And while Jonah, the father, is supposedly keeping a vigil at Max's bedside with Max's mom, Dina Romano, and her sister Nina, Dina and Nina. Adam is staying at the house. And Rebecca is as well. Okay, cut to the next morning. Tension. Yeah. So the next morning at like 6 a.m., 6.45 a.m., Adam finds Rebecca's body. She's nude, hanging by her neck from an outdoor back balcony. Her wrists and ankles are bound.

And she's gagged with a blue long-sleeved T-shirt wrapped around her head with the sleeves double-knotted and stuffed into her mouth. There's like a residue on her legs that looks to be like tape residue. And she's bound. She on her on her legs. It looks to be like tape residue. And she's bound. She's hanging by her neck and her. Let's see it on the bedroom door where she had jumped out of this supposedly because here's the thing.

The coroner ruled us a fucking suicide. Yeah, that's this is the this is the thing like this is the murder. I really think that Max it was accidental and then this was vengeance. This might have been vengeance a suicide and on the on the bedroom door. Someone had written in black paint. She saved him. You can save her or can you save her? She saved him. Can you save her? can save her or can you save her? She saved him. Can you save her? No. What does that mean? Nobody knows. Um, there were four instances of head trauma, but ultimately she died from hanging. So he deemed it a suicide and the addressing the blood on her legs. Cause there was also blood on her legs. The forensic pathologists identify the cause either a menstrual period or a intrauterine device which is like the most insulting but that's also yeah i mean what are the odds yeah right right although you know if it's a really bad period you might just want to kill yourself sorry

terrible yeah or if you're right i'm like baffled right yeah it's this really bad period you might just want to kill yourself sorry terrible yeah or if you're raped i'm like baffled right yeah it's this is a baffling case which is why i love it so much and i remember i remember the kid i remember the news reporter the kid falling and then two days later this girl this woman so um dr maurice godwin a private forensic consultant told a reporter that zaha's death had all the earmarks of our, quote, ritualistic killing and that the suicide had been staged. Duh, she's fucking bound and gagged. In Dr. Godwin's opinion, someone had dazed Zaha with a blow to the head and then tossed her off the balcony. So, and of course, remember, I said that they they had heard loud the neighbors had heard loud music

coming from the house that night so maybe covering up screams screams which they also the neighbor also heard oh really yeah so that night the night that she died at 10 48 p.m zahal received a text message from nina romano the sister of the mother of of Max. And Nina stated that she wanted to stop by the house and speak with Zahau about Max's accident. And Zahau didn't reply to that message, but police said that she checked her voicemail a few hours later and listened to a message, deleted it, or it got deleted somehow,

and we have no idea what was on that message. So according... Of all the things they can do why can't they find deleted messages it seems like a simple you can find a deleted email right this is this this is like the making of a murderer thing yeah that drives me crazy yeah okay which part like why didn't they find out what was on and those kids deleted the the brother and the ex-boyfriend they broke into her voicemail and then deleted stuff. And they're like, Oh, well,

I guess it's gone forever where it's like, how is that possible? It's impossible. Especially if, if someone is missing, you're not going to, everything could be a clue. Why would you know to find this?

You're missing loved one, unless you know what's going on and you deleted it on purpose. Right. Yeah, totally. But everyone's not a true crime fanatic like we are though. So, um,

so, so according to a uh you know forensic analysis the expert he determined or a forensic expert the note what was written on the door was written by a right-handed male and based on how high the door was the person was probably six feet tall uh rebecca was only five foot three, and Adam, the brother, was the only man in the mansion at the time of Rebecca's death. And how tall was he? Probably six feet tall. Oh, shit.

You know? So according to the Generation Y podcast, which they did this on the subject, he had also spent the night, you know, in that back house, specifically looking at Asian bondage porn on his phone, which he admitted to. Oh, no. Yeah.

And she was Burmese. Yeah. Beautiful, by the way. I mean, it goes without saying, but gorgeous woman. So here's some stuff from Reddit. So how family is suing over a wrongful death. Because that's the official report. she committed she committed suicide they've they've tried to reopen it and have them put a different uh both both deaths have they have tried to get a different um cause of death like ruling yeah and neither of

them have it's happened okay so they're suing over wrongful death and so here's some of the stuff from the lawsuit um the clothes she'd been wearing before being stripped and killed were never found oh which is like if you're gonna kill yourself and why would you strip naked to kill yourself that's for real and then hang yourself in view of your neighbors which there's photos you can see photos of her body on the front lawn after this guy, Adam supposedly cut her down before he called 911. Oh no. Which, why would you fucking do that? Also, why would you bind your own legs and arms before you hang yourself?

Yeah. Well, they, they said that it's, it's been done before. It's not out of the question. They had a, they had a reenactment to see if that's something they could do. And technically, yeah, you can do it. It can be done. They had a woman bind herself, do all of these things and hang herself.

But why the, you know, it doesn't make any fucking sense. Unless she was like into that specific kind of bondage. And this was some kind of like, yeah, here's my thing. And now I'm on my way out.

Well, maybe it was, I mean, maybe it's like, here's my thing. And it was accidental. Maybe she was trying to set up her ex, her, her boyfriend or the brother. But why would she kill herself to begin with?

Because ultimately she's in question for this child's death. Right. So why would she be suddenly trying to set other people up for murder? Totally. Doesn't she have hideous guilt? A six year old died. Yeah. And she was in a coma.

She was supposed to be watching him for sure. So she probably does feel a lot of guilt over it. And it sounds like the mom and the sister were kind of crazy and like hounding her about it. Yeah. No one believed it was an accident. But then, so then you strip down by yourself. So then you take a handful of pills and you're dead. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And also I feel like she was also a Christian, which doesn't mean that she wouldn't kill herself, but it also, it, it, it's, there's some sort of shame there that you wouldn't be naked in front of everyone. I feel like there's kind of a, a bit of a, what's the word? Well, you know, not being a naked person you mean like body shame or like no just being um demure a little more oh yes yeah yeah yeah okay so well

because then it makes it about a whole different thing it's it's perverted all of a sudden yeah if you're killing yourself because you're so sorry yeah then you wouldn't be naked and bound in a sexual manner. And there's, so there's floor, there's four blunt force, uh, wounds to her head, which they argued on her way down. She hit her head on the wall,

which is like in postmortem post. No, like right as she's dying, as she's hanging herself, her body flings into the wall four times and hard enough to give her blunt force trauma. That's not going to happen. So the ties that bound her were nautical ties. And Adam, the brother, in the lawsuit, it says he's referred to as being a sailor. This is all from Reddit. So I didn't read this from directly from the case. And the ties binding her the same paint from the message on the door as did her nipples oh the black paint okay so the other

thing is when she if she had to jump out of the window with her full force the bed that she had tied the uh rope to should have moved moved and it didn't move enough, which means either someone was sitting on the bed, holding it in place. Someone moved the bed back to where it should have been for some reason. If she had actually jumped, it would have been heavier. She had mud on her feet,

but there were no footprints on the balcony. Why did she have mud on her feet but there were no footprints on the balcony why did she have mud on her feet that means she was outside and the back house running barefoot right but no fucking so someone clearly picked her up and threw her over the side of the balcony if there was no footprints on the balcony and then there was a computer uh in her room that was used after after 3 a.m which was later than the time she would have already been dead. And no determination was ever made as to who accessed it. So a lot of people are saying that this is like, you know, a wealthy man. They want to bury this.

They don't want to bring this to trial. The cops are corrupt. It's a really wealthy neighborhood in San Diego. They determine that her death is a suicide. And they're like, and this is now this is done. And yeah, asks any question. And not only that, but they keep going. Like when there's questions about how on earth could this have happened? Why would this have happened? Instead of saying like, well, we need to look into that more, because that doesn't make any sense as to a suicide. They like give insane

excuses as to like, you know you know well people have have killed themselves that way in the past or see like this woman was able to do it in a recreation so it must be how it happened and you know no dna means and if she was hit over the head she maybe was stunted and there's no dna because there was no fighting between them she never there's no defensive wounds because she was immediately rendered unconscious. Yeah. You know, tied up and then tie the fuck up.

Also, how do you bind yourself? So say, let's go with that. Yeah. She bound herself crazily before she threw herself over. So then your legs and arms are bound and then you still have to jump and get over the belt.

Yeah. Or whatever that thing is that she went over and, but then a thing if the paint is on her yeah when she's bound and on the ropes and on her nipples then she must have done that after she painted the message right bound painted a message at five foot three that's up high. That's not really a suicide note. No, that no one really can understand what it means. So, so, uh,

they're saying that people have, have bound themselves like that in the past when they commit suicide. But, um, I can't remember what I was going to say. First of all, how many? Yeah.

One. Right. That's crazy. Right. Yeah. One person was probably very interested in that kind of bonded. Yeah. Or it was like a sexual thing gone wrong.

Yeah. Or gave them, yeah, pleasure, relief, something. They were connected in some way. Isn't that insane? And that's just, that's it. Yeah. And that was two days after the kid went over the railing. Well, also the kid going over the railing, like in just picturing it in my mind, knowing

nothing about the actual setup when you're six, how tall are you? Four feet tall at the most. And if, I mean. So you're not buying it. They say like, well, he must've tripped. That's, that is shady too. And they're saying that, um, later one of the coroners said that he it looked like he had been not choked, but that someone had maybe like tried to stifle his his his mouth. So he wasn't yelling or something like that.

So there could be total foul play going on there, too. Yeah. That would that makes the most sense to me is like some kind of killing of that child, whether it was accidental or not or whatever. And then they come back like 10 times harder. Yeah. You did this. Yeah. So even if, even if that wasn't true, that he, it was accidental, they still would come

back that way and they would believe it because this is the new young pretty girlfriend that this kid is living with dies under her fucking supervision supervision and so of course they're pissed and gonna come after her yes she's the ultimate villain yeah also she had to go get like in that before she was murdered after the kids in the hospital the brother comes into town and she's the one that's got to go pick him up she goes and gets him and then they go have dinner which i i want to be like well who the fuck is having dinner when this kid's in the hospital but then i mean it's true who the fuck is having dinner i want to know where they had dinner but i've been at a bedside of someone dying and you're like you have to eat so you all go sit at this place and have a quiet uncomfortable sad dinner

like that's, that happens. It does happen. It's not like they went to fucking Chili's. Like who knows? But if you, I just think if I was, if there, I was babysitting a kid,

a six year old who then basically died under my care. I'm not driving to the airport. Most people won't drive to the airport anyway. Yeah. Like I'm not driving to the airport. I'm not going out to dinner. No. Like I would probably be on so many pills i would be in bed permanently yeah me too i mean you're not wanted at the hospital because the mother is there and she fucking hates your

guts and the family hates your guts probably anyway take a fucking cab from the airport take a cab or some other relative oh you know what i'm sorry she her sister was in town at that moment and so she had to take her sister to the airport which still take a cab to the fucking airport why is she running errands for people she must be in like okay say she's a sociopath and she killed a child yeah that's the only thing that makes sense to me to be like sure i'll be there at eight to pick you up or she's in shock and she's doing everything she can to be helpful because she just is like let me do what i can yeah i guess so maybe not i know um yeah so it's just baffling and it's really frustrating that nobody seems to want to test for anything well and if it's like pharmaceutical money that's like the most money right all

ceo of a pharmaceutical company that's all of the money in the world that's all the money and then he's like basically going around it's a coronado yeah crazy rich part of san diego yeah so then it's just like those people already know those people he probably gives to the community yeah to begin with so they're just like, I've had a tragedy. Now she killed herself. Can we let, just lay all this to rest?

Yeah. It's probably the storyline, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like there, this is, no one's going to come back.

This is a tragedy all around. Let's just let it rest. And her poor, like, is she like a first generation Burmese? Yeah. So her poor parents are just like, can we get a little something? Yeah.

It's like, nope. And everyone's saying, you know, the family is saying that's not her handwriting. She was not suicidal. Her sister spoke to her that evening. Not suicidal at all. Everyone's saying she wasn't suicidal. Oh, that is sinister. Yeah.

And even her ex-husband, who you would think would hate her because she actually cheated on him with her new boyfriend, is like trying to figure out what's happened to her. He's not even like vengeful in any way. I know. I want to know more about that brother. Like, what's his deal? Yeah. No, there's no information about what he does for a living, who he is. He's from, I believe, Memphis.

Yeah, he's from Memphis. He's from, I believe, Memphis. Yeah, he's from Memphis. And it's kind of like, I think we all know people who have, like, the type of person who has an insanely rich older brother. Yeah. That's basically like, well, now I get to do what I want. Yeah, totally. Maybe.

For all of my life. He cut her down at 6.48 a.m. and then sent a text message to his brother to inform him of the news. I would love to read that text message. Yeah. Hey, dude, your girlfriend's dead. What if you text someone to say your wife is dead? Yeah, your girlfriend. You call.

You call at minimum, if not drive down to the hospital. What the, what? Yeah. Is happening. This brother is sinister. I'm curious about the dad, the boyfriend, if he had anything to do with it. Apparently he was sleeping at the Ronald McDonald house that night because he was, you know, by his kid's bedside the whole time, needed to sleep a little bit, which is what the Ronald McDonald house is for.

And so he wasn't even near the house. And then the ex-wife was also at the hospital, but her sister was at the house. Her, the wife, ex-wife was also at the hospital, but her sister was at the house? The ex-wife was at the hospital with the sister. There's, you know, the speculation is that they came over, were banging on the door to be let in. Rebecca wouldn't let them in. The message that was deleted might have been from Jonah saying, let them in. Oh, yeah.

That was deleted. Right. So if they had that message saying, let them in, then they have proof that the, that the women were there, but there's no proof that they were there. I know. How fucking crazy is it? Well, there's no proof that they were there, but no one's looked for proof. Right.

Right. Yeah. No one's looked to prove a suicide. It sounds to me like there's no proof that the women were involved. It just, it sounds correct. I think that this guy, the brother is clearly,

it is either, was it sexually motivated? It had nothing to do with Max and maybe she rebuffed his advances and he got angry and killed her and made it look like it it was revenge there's a lot of motives there there's a lot of motives there and none of them are being explored no and then you know it's one of those things where like in your head it's like oh she was so pretty and they were rich and blah blah blah and then you look at the photos and this kid is like a sweet little kid this photo of this kid max who dies yeah you it's like the same thing with

um john bonnet when you're like she was a beauty you see all these beauty pageant photos and then you see a photo of her like a normal person like oh i was such a young person like it was a baby well and also when children die people very justifiably go insane it makes sense like any reaction the idea that the cops aren't going look there's a massive loss here yeah the reaction off of this loss is understandable not justified not you know good or anything but going crazy it's very clear motive it's very logical motive yeah yeah and and getting and hearing which they hadn't even heard yet it was accidental they hadn't been told that yet because that wasn't until after he died that that got ruled though the women and

everyone else are probably like this woman is responsible how the fuck did this happen you should have been watching him she said she was in the bathroom when it happened she's like you should be able to leave a six-year-old alone long enough for them not to do certain things. They say, like, he tripped over the dog or he was riding a scooter. Weird shit. I don't know. You don't buy that either. I know I'm picturing it inaccurately because I don't know the truth.

But I'm like, when you trip and fall in your six, you're tripping, what, at the most two inches yeah you're not you know you don't catch fucking air and go over the side of a railing totally but if you're a little you know you're playing around that you should in a way you shouldn't be and you're messing around and you're trying to climb over the railing even yes because you do stupid shit did you ever get your head caught between the banister the railing and i did it was the most terrifying i still remember it i mean yeah there's but but then i go how long was she in that bathroom that he's doing so much stuff like it could have been a minute but but when you're babysitting it makes me think of nora of course my niece who's now nine

but i babysit her sat her a ton when it was just her and i and if you have to get up to go to the bathroom you go you put the tv on and hypnotize them and just go stay right there i'll be right back don't touch you don't even close the bathroom door all the way no way yeah when i maybe send my nephew who's a six-year-old boy very rambunctious six-year-old boy i'm like mike you good yes you get out there constantly call out to them yeah but she what but technically she wasn't babysitting him she was living with this person and i feel like when you're actually someone's guardian it's not you're not you know you and i are terrified of killing our siblings yes like child and don't understand that kids can be left alone a little bit more than we think they

can. Oh, that's true. So, but then again, that's not, you know, who,

who knows how long she was living with them. So was it only the two of them in the house and her younger sister who was visiting? Oh, right. Okay. Oh man. I know that is.

Yeah. If you guys want to look up, it's the, if you look up the Coronado murder house, this fucking mansion is. Yeah. If you guys want to look up, it's the, if you look up the Coronado murder house, this fucking mansion is so ugly and you can see it's blurred out and I'm sure you can find one that's not, but her body on the lawn naked. That's not,

you know, that they took from the fucking helicopters. That's an unfortunate porn search that he did that night. If he's innocent, how is that possible that she's found bound and he looked up not even just bondage porn asian asian bondage porn that's not yeah that is quite a that's too many things yeah to be just a simple coincidence totally oh and then who was on her computer after 3 a.m right after she's fucking hanging god damn it can you imagine being a neighbor and

waking up and saying that oh my god fuck but he's the one that cut her down he's the one that found her so he quote found her yeah in the morning 6 30 in the morning then what was time of death do you know no like was it supposed to be the night before i think it was supposed to be the night before but but what is your first, I mean, is your first instinct to cut someone down if they're clearly dead? It's to run away and call 911. It's to call 911 in a panic, not run upstairs, get a knife or whatever, and cut a rope down. So this person who's, you could tell when someone's dead and not dead, then falls to

the ground. who's you could tell when someone's dead and not dead yes then falls to the ground especially if she's if you let's say he has nothing to do with it and she's bound your first instinct because this is not a suicide this is a murder why would you then cut them down right why would you we everybody knows that you don't contaminate a crime scene even if you're not like us who are obsessed with this shit you know not to fucking get your finger it's law and order 101 oh and then there was also a knife in the room that supposedly he cut her down with no fingerprints on it why are there no fucking fingerprints on that this is all this very specific stuff i have to say is from reddit supposedly from the um reports reports yeah that of the family suing the shacknaws for the murder,

for wrongful death. So this could be bullshit. Well, what's interesting is when I did the looking up all that stuff on the Elisa Lam thing from Cecil Hotel last week, most of the information people get ends up being from those wrongful death cases. Yeah. Because that's when they release the information and you get it in court records. Right.

The files are open. Because it's, they, when it's a regular police case, you can't get that information. And yet, isn't it fucking, this is a thing that's insane to me. That's nothing to do with any of this. The fact that 911 calls are public record. a thing that's insane to me that's nothing to do with any of this the fact that uh 9-1-1 calls are public record yeah are is absolute bananas to me so you can't get all this information but you can hear a 9-1-1 call just whenever you fucking want yeah those should be so private i can't even stand it those things bum me out so bad i know you can't stand them i hate them i don't think anyone did

you there's one where a woman gets killed like on the phone no nope there's a whole episode of last pad cost last podcast on the left where they just do 9-1-1 calls i skipped that one i know i was like i've listened to every fucking episode i like yeah i wait for new episodes but that one yeah that one i was like i listened with my finger hovering over the stop button because i was like i know i and i never finished it because here's the other a couple times on like 2020 or like dateline or whatever the ones that bum me out the most are those fucking doctors that kill their wives and call 9-1-1 pretending to be my wife and it's so fake and it's so obvious like if you've taken one acting yeah you're like sir i'm believing nothing of this right now and they think they're so smart they think they are

fooling everybody you know what we should do i just thought of how fucking cool this would be make a fake 9-1-1 just do just do uh prank calls to 9-1-1 for the entire show and then get arrested and then have the knock at the door of us getting arrested no i wouldn't okay this would be ridiculous but if we played let's say we played we had dustin pick out 10 911 calls five of them were real the person actually had had not killed the person right five of them were like later found out that they that person killed the person and then we'd take a test and we have to guess why do we have to do 10 that's so. Okay. How about one of them is fake? Let's do three.

Okay. I honestly feel like I could do it right now and pass the test. I feel like I'm bartering with you. Okay. Three. We'll just do three. And one will be fake. One will be fake.

But then we have to listen to two real 911 calls. Two will be fake. One will be real. I think it's because, and I don't know if I've ever talked about this on this. My favorite all time show is I survived. Oh, I don't want to see survivors. So let's talk about this.

That's okay. The reason I love it is because it's all the, um, cause it's instead of being the thing I'm interested in, which is serial killing and all the crazy shit, which I want distance from and no relation to and no, you want to make it just, yeah. And I survived. It's people that go through all that shit and are sitting and most of the

it's like literally 90 women the men are always there because they're like i survived a hike that went wrong yeah it's like fuck you yeah it's always a guy that's like had his own yacht and then he's like i can't and the storm came like don't go on a fucking yacht then and then there's four women who are like just just this guy came up behind me. Humans are bigger than I, most male humans are bigger than I am and can hurt me in broad daylight. And so unfortunately I had a job. Right. And then this man decided I would die for that.

Yep. But I, that's why I don't like it. Cause do you know the show, um, cold case? Oh, what's the one with the two women who... God, my memory is awful. Is it a real show or is it like a fictional? It's a real show. Where they're trying to solve cold cases?

Cold cases, yeah. And is it relatively new? Yeah. I've never watched it. Okay, it's called Cold Justice. Cold Justice. And these two badass women, one is a prosecutor. Oh, okay. And one is a crime scene investigator and they go to these like fucking tiny towns that have no money for you know uh for detectives and

people to look up what's going on and right take and try to solve a cold case that's cool oh it's incredible and it's like so feminist i love it because these chicks are badass so they did they started one called cold cold uh cold justice and then but it's like it's only rapes and sexual assaults so these women are survived and it's just so depressing because their interviews like make me hurt but you don't have to get an interview from the person who's dead right so i just yeah yeah that's very true well yeah it's the i think a key to having this interest is distance yeah it's too much to be involved in like the victim's lives but and that's normally how i feel but i survived is produced so well yeah because you don't want to watch a person who survived and can't tell their own story because they're still

so fucked up yeah that's that is too much to take on we all have enough problems it's also nice too when you're like when you know that the case has been solved and they've caught the guy and he's in prison because they're still trying to find the guy who raped them that's too much yeah like the stress in their life yeah on i survived it's all women who most of the time at the very end they're like and then i started the victims counseling center. There are all these amazing women that like, take it, turn it around. There's one girl that like was kidnapped when she was 16 by this crazy serial killer somehow survived, whatever.

And she's a cop. Fuck yeah. It's the, everything becomes really amazing and inspirational. Yeah. Like how you can, the worst thing in your life can become like you're basically your destiny. Does it make you think too, that you're more equipped to survive something that like that happens to you because you're you're never going to be like well everyone dies from this you're going to be like remember that girl she fought this guy and she won and and here's how

to oh yeah and once you know that's a fact a true that can happen yes and also they all talk about it you do whatever it takes to survive so if you have to play dead if you have to you know like they just not justify but they're like explain like the things that a lot of survivors feel guilty about which is like you know then i got raped for the fourth time yeah and i didn't fight or something right it's like no you don't fight because he would have just slashed your throat. Yeah. There's a thing I always like, this is my big thing is like, just even if you get stabbed, don't get in the truck. Don't get in the car.

Don't go somewhere with the person. That's like the big thing is like, you're better off getting shot on the street than not getting shot and getting in the car of the person who's trying to like do whatever you fucking can, even if it's getting stabbed to not get in the car. Yeah. Because as soon as you're in their possession you're fucked yes it's a good thing to know in your head right but in the situation comes up who the fuck knows yeah i'm not gonna it's so crazy because also you go into shock i mean there's totally people that tell the story where you're just kind of like it all is so surreal that you feel like you're dreaming yeah like you

how could this actually be happening ali has this crazy story that she was just walking down the street in like larchmont which is like a nice fucking neighborhood during the day this car pulls up these two like gangster dudes get out with fucking kitchen knives big old chef's knives and are like give us your money and she takes her purse like a football throws it it in the opposite direction, like to the side, and then runs back the way she was going, which is like, that's genius. I thought that you could even do that while you're getting held up.

And like, understand that if you throw your purse off to the side, they're going to go after the purse, not you. Yes. Genius. How did she know to do that? She said it was just instinct.

Fucking crazy. Well, her dad was also a crime reporter when she was a kid so i bet something like that has happened and she's yeah he's probably like been like oh and by the by yeah now that we're sitting here at breakfast should she ever yeah that's amazing yeah the closest that i can even slightly think of like anything like this that's happened to me is i was walking down one time and there's a bank that had a weird like inside parking lot where you drove in under like a little bank overpass and then there was just like an interior parking lot creepy Saturday afternoon so like the bank was closed and as I was walking by here like hey excuse me excuse me hey

and there's a guy sitting in like a station wagon. He's like, pardon me, can I just ask you a quick question? Nope. And I'm walking by and I just started laughing. I was like, uh, no, and I like was still walking. He's like, ma'am, I just need to ask you this question. I'm supposed to walk in this thing. Yes, sir. And then he, yeah, I just was like hurried it up.

And then he's like, man, people are so untrusting. It's like, why the fuck aren't you out here on the sidewalk if you have such a pressing question yeah and you saying untrusting means you're clearly untrustworthy why would i trust you yes why are you bringing that up at all and also what kind of idiot right has to go i mean that's a terrible thing to say but it was no you know why really dangerous it's because we're bitches and we don't have to be fucking polite to other people yes which is like such a gift that's right that's i was raised by a bitch who was like yeah to a person's face be like why don't you get back the fuck up right now my mom too yeah my mom got someone copped a feel on my mom in broad daylight when she was a kid and she told me about

it when i was a fucking kid which probably probably shouldn't have. So like, I've always been fucking terrified of strangers. Yeah. Um, that happened too. Yeah. Great. That happened to me too. I, I like a few years ago I was leaving a bar and some guy kind of seemed like he was following me and I was like getting into my car and he was like, Hey, Hey. And like running towards me and I get in my car in front of him and lock the door and he was like never mind and like walked away and he was like clearly a creep he wasn't someone that was like a friend you know yeah but like the tone I'm sure the tone of his voice was like yes what do you need yeah what kind of fun experience will this be right crazy also that made that just made me think sorry now we're doing this I love it it just made me think of this when i was dumb and i think i was probably 21 or 22 i lived in san francisco and we all went to see my friend

maleva lived with a band it was so hilarious in this victorian house um vns they were the coolest guys they were so nice and it was like a total like dave matthews style band and they were playing at a bar nearby so we me and her and my other friend all went to watch the band in this little bar we all got drunk it was um i think it was the king's head oh the pub yes next door is the best sausages i've ever had in my life really wait i think that's it yeah no that's tornado lombard yeah no i'm thinking something else but i know the king said that's okay um so it was like it just felt like a regular night going out like we had done a million times and we were all dancing on the dance floor and having a great time and this guy came up and

he was really cute he looked the on first impression he looked like he had just gotten out of the army to me he was very clean cut and kind of intense but he came and started dancing next to me and talking to me and almost like you your friends or like you have must have friends in common or something like he knows who you are yeah and also but it was like the feel of it was like almost like a jam band like we're all here together and so he was like hey blah blah blah and i'm like what and he's like hey let's dance together and i was like yeah like we already were yeah it was we all were dancing everyone was dancing and then he goes he goes let's go let's go over here and i go no and i

looked around my friends were nowhere near me i didn't realize it because i was drunk yeah but they weren't nearby and i was like no and then he grabbed both of my hands at the same time by the wrists no and he goes let's go over here and was pulling me toward the fucking door no and the guy this guy dave who was the greatest was the manager of the band and he also lived in the house with everybody and out of nowhere dave fucking shows up grabs the guy by the shirt and just pulls him away and the guy got kicked out by security thank fucking god dave was watching the entire time do you know that happened over the weekend and jesse pop fucking kicked this guy out of the bar what i just remember yes sorry dustin is this going way too long is this okay okay there's this fucking guy in a bar we We get to the drawing room, which is like this dive bar. Everyone loves like the bartender knows us. It's the best. And I'm getting drinks. And this guy next to me is like being friendly and I'm being friendly back because everyone there is a regular. And then he suddenly turns and says something about Vince, my husband. That's rude. And so I just stopped paying attention to him. And I think he said something shitty. And Vince and vince was like gotta want to fight him kind of which vince doesn't do yeah and then so ali and

i are talking to a friend and this guy who's like drunk as fuck comes over and starts talking to us and jesse pop walks over and goes this guy bothering you and i go yeah actually he is and just he goes all right bub come on get leave the ladies alone you got to get out of here and the guy was like kind of pissed and like yelling at him. And then the bartender came over and kicked him out. It was straight up. Is this guy bothering you? Yeah.

Okay. Are my cheeks red right now? Yes. That's my favorite thing I've ever heard. It was amazing. That is. Dustin was there. Dustin saw it.

The best. Yeah. Oh, my God. You know what? Fuck yeah to tall guys that take care of business. Yeah. Short guys, too. Well, yes, exactly. Any guys, actually. Right. oh my god you know what fuck you out of tall guys take that take care of business yeah short guys too well yes exact any guys actually right fuck you out of guys that step up pay attention because things like that especially it's like you can't even drink as i was gonna say it's like you you can't have two drinks yeah because you're inebriated and suddenly you're

kind of like yeah i want to hang out yeah people and give people a chance and literally like the the my story the turn happened so quickly i remember in my head thinking you fucking idiot not enough time to react no no time to react and like he had me i overpowered you if that guy wasn't paying attention i would have been out the side door no one would have seen me go no it was the was the perfect scenario. I wonder if you'd recognize him. He had to have gone on to fucking be a rapist at least. I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, isn't that weird that that could, he could have gone on to do that and you wouldn't know. Yeah. That you, how, how you escaped that. Well,

also think that later on when we all got on the bus together, it's such a dumb like part of my life where we're like we lived with a band yeah like she did but then i was no it's adorable it's what you do in your 20s yeah exactly but they're like they all knew it happened and i felt i was ashamed like it was me but they were like hey are you okay and like they were all kind of checking in where i was like i wanted to be a city girl yeah and there's that problem too when you want to be a tough city girl that knows her shit and parties and this and that or you're one of the guys and then suddenly this person does the same to show that you are just a fucking girl yeah who can pretty much be overpowered by the smallest guy

in the group yeah and you're just kind of a dumb weakling yeah didn't yeah it's yeah i think that we like to be tough and then someone proves that you're not or like when some when you want to be tough and then someone makes you cry and you're so pissed off at yourself for crying because it makes you look like a pussy yeah that's so annoying yeah oh man hey come on i love how on the show we're just so like everything is the worst and fuck everything and you got to be on your guard maybe you know maybe we'll save someone's life yes exactly and also just you got to be a survivor yeah that's the point listen have a buddy don't ever be alone at a bar no and don't be drunk alone don't leave your drink alone yeah if you're gonna get drunk

which hell yeah go for it yeah but you have to have it maybe either either one sober friend yeah a friend that drinks slower than you yeah or just someone that's got their eye out yeah and don't don't leave the bar to go home with someone and leave your girlfriend behind don't fucking let your girlfriend leave you behind i mean don't be stupid is basically i know oh man you look so worried right now you look like you're solving a you know you know what it is i'm just thinking about the fact that i was a blackout drunk for 15 years of my life and for some reason i'm fine i somehow survived i don't know how it's the thing that i think happens in every episode where we're like how are we not dead i know you know what we're all okay we're we're so okay and hopefully okay hopefully this podcast will lower like just on its merit

alone will lower our percentage like because we've talked about it so the likelihood of it happening is less right is that a thing i've heard you say that now eight times because there's been eight episodes it's it's now like your magic mantra it is saying if you can imagine something happening the like the likelihood decreases that it'll happen well because you're being yeah you're running scenarios you're being smart exactly you're being smart exactly are we gonna listen to vince's story oh yeah okay so we kind of have the uh said husband vince left me has has had a murder story that he told me in the very beginning because he knows that I'm obsessed even though he's not but then he told me this murder story

and I was like I tried not to react so like I was in love with it because I didn't want him to think I was a weirdo but it's really good. It's a good one. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Vince Avril ladies and gentlemen. Avril. Avril. Did I tell you that story that the dj asked me how to pronounce his name he leaned over and he goes

how do you pronounce his last name and i go it's avril and then i sat there for three seconds and it was like he was about to say it and then i leaned over really quick and asked matt or whoever was next to me that knew and then i'm like avil april april did you yeah but then did you hear when he introduced us he was like hard stark and that was me the pause in between i go hard start really fast i was sitting directly next to the thank you you're welcome okay but i almost fucked up vincent i love it it turned out okay i grew up in a small town outside detroit Michigan, and we had a central park in town. And when I was like a freshman or sophomore in high school, a girl who was in my class was abducted out of the park and ultimately raped and murdered by a guy who was like a serial killer, it turned out.

It had done it to a number of women. killer. It turned out it had done it to a number of women. And then a few years later, like the year after I graduated, there were two 12-year-old girls who met these guys, like a 20- to 30-year-old in the park, and had asked them to buy them alcohol so they could celebrate their 13th birthdays that were coming up. So the guys told them to come back and meet them there that night, and they would have the alcohol for them. So when they, these girls snuck out and came back, and the guys got them drunk, raped, killed them, pretty horrible stuff. And then they put the bodies in the river, in the drain, and then shortly thereafter was like the summer festival that happened every year and during the festival which was a lot of it taking place in central park the girls bodies were discovered they came up and uh i don't know

jesus so like all the families are at the festival and the fucking bodies float up in the river then they thought the girls were run like runaways until then i think also did you see my cat like as soon as vince's voice came on he ran over i was like what the fuck where's my where are my treats uh yeah that's a fucked up oh my god i know 12 wait no the girls the girls were like i think Oh, my God. I know. 12. Wait. No. The girls. The girls were like, I think 13 or 14. No, no, no. They were 12. Yeah, you're right.

They're celebrating their 13th birthday. But I was a I went to rehab when I was 13. Like they were probably bad kids. I know. You'd never know it from your wonderful dresses. Thank you. Of wonderful things. Thank you.

And your gorgeous spa water. You're just served us delicious cucumber water like a fucking rich lady. Oh, there's meth in it. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, that's fucked up. Those scenarios, I was in those scenarios drinking booze with like 20 something year olds. Stay out of the park and

in a park at night oh just like the only difference is i didn't get raped and murdered yeah come on jesus christ do you want to read a hometown murder or are you done should we save it for next week maybe we're emotionally i'm wrong out we're emotionally exhausted i love it this murder podcast has murdered us it's it's really gonna get us to a new place yeah i totally forgot about that thing that happened to me till just now i swear to god um this is bringing up shit and we're probably gonna need to talk to therapists about it yeah should we is there something positive we can talk about did you ever i just snorted like snot in my nose like a fucking third grader no i love it you're sick it's okay um there's no they can go on to other podcasts for shit there's like all kinds here let me elvis do you want a cookie? Want a cookie? Okay. That's there. That's a positive. That's okay. Elvis,

cookie. Okay. Um, all right. Well, thanks for listening, you guys. I'm sorry, but please tell us everything. You can email us at my favorite murder at Gmail. Please get onto the Facebook page. My favorite murder group murder group it's private so people won't be able to read your crazy shit that you write and it's like such a fun fucking group and then on twitter we're my my fave murder yeah please follow us and then go on itunes and rate review and subscribe have you been reading our reviews i haven't we should see if we have any i did once and um i told the story of how i fixated on the two bad ones and didn't even pay attention to the hundreds of good ones. That's how life is.

I know. We shouldn't do that. I'm going to shame us for doing that. Yeah. Thanks for... Thanks. We love you. We love you.

Stay sexy.