My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 82 - The MFM/Unqualified with Anna Faris Crossover Special Pt. 1

Episode Date: August 15, 2017

In part one of the My Favorite Murder/Unqualified crossover special, Karen covers the BTK Killer, Anna quizzes Karen and Georgia on relationship dealbreakers, and they all give advice to a call-in listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business. Learn how at interac.ca slash for business. Terms and conditions apply. All right, are we doing this? I don't know, Sim. Tell me what the fuck we're doing. I show up here. This is exciting. We're doing a crossover.

Karen and Georgia from My Favorite Murder are in your house right now. Thank you guys so much for being here. Hi. This is like the most efficient way to podcast, isn't it? Everybody gets together in one room and talk all at the same time. Right. I would like to describe the setting, though. We are now now we're in

like the what we call the mole room because there's this massive poster of this horrible movie called the mole people that's from like 1946 and uh and we so we call this room the mole room and now it's it's incredibly dark and lit with candles and um we're gonna talk about our favorite murder yeah welcome to our lives bloody mary right it does feel like that have you guys always been attracted to like morbid things like very attracted to yeah i have yeah yeah in a creepy way challenge though because you've i'll give you a tour later but i have like a lot of shit around that's i have a few like skulls like a lot of taxidermy um i the goal with the house was like how can i make it look like the creepiest natural history museum where

my people that come over might feel like they could get you know murdered and dream house yeah yeah this is haunted for sure the mall room is haunted it really is isn't it absolutely if any room's gonna be haunted or any house it's this i always thought like with the haunted thing like we've talked about this on the podcast before like how interesting it would be if um some somebody believed that their apartment at like the oak woods like b 2108 was like haunted yeah no that's not fucking but see that's what i'm saying like why do ghosts only yeah like gravitate towards like creepy darkness old things like 1982 we were talking about big stars haunting the oakwood right like they're really the biggest like betty davis is in my half bath right now everybody get ready

in the crown molding in the sheep but we were talking about that how much creepier it is for a new build to be haunted than an old house because it's like yeah of course this place is haunted there's like people who lived here but if it's like a new apartment or house in normal people's cases then it's like well that this is a fucking the demon that's a demon it's not like gary sherman who died at like age 78 who just has a message for his wife yeah he's not a dick it's not nice he never got married though oh is that what it is yeah he was just he was just a little lonely died of a heart heart attack, you know. His message is, get out there. Really mix and mingle. Try to find somebody.

The Okwa gym is like steps from your house and yet you won't exercise. Don't be like me. Don't be like Gary and die alone. So sad. Thank you guys so much for being here. Thank you. Wait, you're pretending like it's your show. Oh, it's not my fucking show. I'm just going to tell the listeners what we're doing first so they know great because it kind of is her show yeah but it's you know we're just at her place

it's our show it's true i get i get we're doing a full-on cross where you guys are getting the full unqualified treatment and we're gonna get the full my favorite murder treatment i feel like together i feel like a guest maybe like you like a guest. Maybe like you host this beginning part, then we'll host. It might. Yes. I would love that. We move into the room we want to be in,

which is full of dead people. My upstairs bedroom. Goodbye. Things get kinky in the half bath. Okay. I like that. So Ana, you're going to host the first part.

Next week we're going to release, we're actually on the 22nd. We're releasing this on the 15th and we're really Steve right it's we're releasing the 22nd over the second part falling asleep and then no listen what we're going to do is it's very easy this is important this is very important we're going to start with Karen you're going to talk about your favorite murder that's right then we're going to go to unqualified deal breakers then we're going to take a device call. After that, we'll end the show and then we'll come back next

week. Actually, we'll wait five minutes and then we'll start again. And this time you guys are hosting and Georgia, you're going to start with your favorite murder and Anna will go with hers and we'll do one more call and we'll wrap it up. I love it. It's amazing. Can you go over that again

a few more times? This is the most, what's the word, like when things are planned that I've ever experienced in a podcast. Is it planned? It's called planned.

Most planned. Well, we're trying. We'll see where it goes. I'm sure that we're going to go off the rails. That's because you guys are wittier than we are and we have to like

plan shit out. We're not from wittier. Are you reading from me? Okay, should we jump right in let's yeah you want to do uh let's do your murder yeah let's do murder okay just start just go for it all right guys well this is in when i got the email the highly detailed email about what how this was going to go um and it said my favorite murder. Like I've already done most of my favorite true, you know,

like my, my top 10, you know what I mean? We've burned through. Yeah. You've done. Yeah. A bunch.

So, but I realized there was one I haven't done that I do. Uh, and I've always been very fascinated by, and that's the BTK killer. Oh my God. Heavy hitter. So this is but we're doing shorter versions than we normally do.

Right. This is kind of a bit of a condensed. Mine's hot. What? Do you not know what I'm talking about? No, I do. I was like, how do I make a lame joke? I'm actually not a comedian at all.

Look at me. I'm not either. For a second second I honestly thought I was like am I going to tell her about the worst Man who's ever lived this is so Exciting mine's not shorter is your shorter It isn't but I was gonna I don't know that many details will you please

I mean I'm excited to hear about this And somebody just give me a wrap it up If we need to like I have a great wrap it up finger Okay good wrap it up Okay so this all started in wichita kansas in uh january 15th 1974 um and it's bad bad bad so 15 year old charlie rotero comes home from school and he sees that his garage doors open which is weird um and he comes home to find the whole house a mess but it's silent which is insane because he has four other brothers and sisters he's the oldest everyone

else is younger than him so he knows something is very wrong his house has never been quiet in his life right if there's five kids yeah so um he's walking around trying to figure out what's going on and then he hears his sister yell charlie come quick mom and dad are playing a bad trick on us so he goes upstairs i'm getting i'm only in the i haven't gotten through the first paragraph yet that's how bad this is so he goes upstairs and he finds his brother and sister carmen and danny huddled together holding each other in their room. And then he goes and checks the parents' room, and he finds his father, Joseph Otero, who was 38,

dead on the floor, bound and strangled to death. And his mother, Julie, who's 34, also bound and strangled to death laying on the bed. They're babies. 34, and you have four or five kids, right? Yeah, yeah. That's crazy. That's how they did it or five kids yeah yeah that's that's crazy that's how they did it back then yeah that's just so yeah oh god just fill up that station hung up on the bound thing like like are they like where are their arms and legs are tied

he was a big of them he was a big hog tire um but i'm not sure specifically on this but like okay with this guy you know what i mean there's certain terminology that you use with like certain murder phrases and bound is definitely one of them right yeah this guy was like on occasion i was gonna say the same thing like with the word um what's the word when you get all your intestines taken out emboweled where disemboweled disemboweled but that's not sexy emboweled is when you get all your intestines taken out? Emboweled. Disemboweled. Disemboweled, but that's not sexy. Emboweled is when you have them all put back in. That wasn't relevant.

Go on. Oh, okay. So, this is where it's even worse. So, he yells to tell his siblings to go find their other brother, Joseph Jr., and their sister, Josephine, and bring them to him. But they can't find them.

And so they call the police. The police come. The kids get out of the house. And the police find Joey in a different bedroom, also bound and murdered. And then they search the whole house, and they finally find Josephine, and she's been murdered. She's hanging from a pipe in the basement. Yeah.

So there's no indication of forced entry. The phone line has been cut. Classic horror movie style. That's what you do. Yes. For the scariest uh results possible um the family car's gone and there's no clues the killer's left nothing behind until upon a closer inspection the police find that there is semen next to where josephine's body was in the basement. The mom? The daughter in the basement. Oh, no. So, because they stole the family car,

the first break they have is that a man, they finally find the car in a grocery store parking lot, and then they find a man who saw who was driving the car, but the only description they have of him is he's a white man with dark hair. It seems like to narrow it down right yeah i mean you've you've just gotten rid of all those blondes yeah and all those fucking gingers everyone hates listen if you're on mars and it's all green little green men then you're like it's the one guy is white and with with dark hair but

unfortunately you're in wichita you're in Wichita Kansas yeah a lot of whites yeah so why didn't the people at the Frosty Freeze they should start to like clock like descriptives of every single customer they have I do that now do you do that now none of this podcast I'm like at our job at Frosty Freeze

yeah listen this podcast doesn't pay well I do that now when I'm like I see someone strange in my like apartment and I'm like, button down, fucking plaid shirt. And that's actually a description of my husband. But I wave at everybody in our neighborhood. Like, oh, yeah. Like, I'm just like, hi, I acknowledge you. And then they're like, when was the last time you saw Anna?

And they're like, well, she waved at me at 735 in the morning. I see you. You see me. That's right see each other yep we got it i like those um stories where a little kid who has some kind of autism spends a lot of his time writing down license plate numbers and they that kid then turns in his notebook and the cops end up finding somebody because he does that never heard that really that's amazing i've heard it on two different ones what i love is when a little kid is like, he looked like a lion.

And then you're like, this might've been a movie. Then they're like, you're so stupid, little kid. And then you see him and he's like got a lion beard or he looked like a clown. And then it's like,

he was a clown. Like when little kids say stupid shit and then it turns out that they're not stupid. Like we're just, we don't have an imagination. He really loves blue popsicles. Right. And and you're like who has a blue mouth oh my god it's jimmy blue mouth fucking blue mouth at it again oh let's get back to the murder okay so so now a year later there's two brothers, the Sebring brothers in Wichita.

They turn themselves in for these murders. They have records. The police search their house. The brothers say that they had an accomplice, that they killed the whole family. And that goes into the newspaper and on the news. So about 11 months later, the local paper in Wichita, I believe it's the Wichita Eagle, they get an anonymous call saying

there's a letter in an applied engineering mechanics book at the Wichita Public Library that the police need to go take a look at. So they get the letter, and it's from BTK. And it's before he gave himself his name he said um those dude singular you have in custody are just talking to get publicity they know nothing at all and then the letter goes on to list in incredible detail exactly how the otero family was killed

and down to specific knots that were used and bindings and the fact that a radio was stolen from the house which the cops hadn't noticed and no one had noticed until this letter and then they went and checked it out and it was true.

So now they know that they're communicating with the man who killed this family. Holy shit. So the police decide to keep the letter out of the press and they keep investigating. So two years later

on March 17th in 18 um a man knocks on the door of shirley vyan's house she's a 24 year old um mother of two um and the children answer the door and let him inside and uh he takes the children locks in the bathroom puts a door under the door handle, then he strangles Shirley to death and binds her first, strangles her to death and leaves. The children get out. They are able to describe the man to the police, and they say he's a large white man with a carrying a big black bag. so nine months after that um it's december 9th 1977 and um a caller calls the police dispatcher and gives uh them the address of nancy fox who's 25 years old and um the police arrive at the address and find the body of nancy tied up and strangled and there's uh again semen found near the body and the killer's voice is captured on tape when uh he called into the dispatcher and um so the police released this

tape wait it was him who called in to get them to come to her body yes what a creep i mean so he calls a murderer so the police release the tape uh on tv and they ask anyone who recognizes the voice to please come forward no one does no one knows who it is so two months later in february um there's a letter uh sent to k-a-k-e tv that's right cake tv in wichita claiming responsibility for the deaths of the Otero family of mrs. Vianne and of Nancy Fox as well as another unnamed victim and the color the writer of the letter demands to be called BTK for bind them torture them kill them yeah sort of a weird version of fuck mary kill isn't it yeah yeah but it's more past tense as opposed to like future do you think burger king suit that's not funny

that's in bad taste georgia i thought it was very funny no thank you but thank you everyone supports you georgia thank you it's a supportive room uh the next day the police chief uh named richard labunyan announces that a serial killer is at large in wichita his name is btk and he has threatened to strike again um so of course everyone loses their shit in wichita um there is a rumor going around that this killer is targeting women with long hair so almost all the women in wichita kansas cut their hair short there's like a line i want to work it beauty cuts right in 1977 we'll just give you a nice dirty handle i'll be making bank yeah we'll curl the bangs under you want to work this part back sheer bliss um oh this is horrible it's it's bad a year later in april 28th 1979 um a woman named uh

ann williams oh no i'm sorry anna so uh or anna oh i think it's on a ferris williams oh god it's not. That's not cool. I knew that I was living in some kind of weird purgatory. But this is it. This is all that happens is someone says your name. I become a movie star. This is the best purgatory ever. Love it.

Okay, so this woman, Anna Williams, this is a crazy part of the story. She has square dancing one night. And so she's supposed to, normally when she goes home from work, she's home around 7. But that night she was square dancing. So she doesn't get home until after 10 o'clock. She's sweaty and like full of joy.

She's been flirting with cowboys. Square dancing, come on. There's not a more innocent hobby that you could have. Like, it's like in a boot. Yeah. So she gets home and notices that her bedroom door is open. And she knows for a fact that she shuts it every morning when she leaves her house. She picks up her phone to call the police.

And the phone line is cut. So she runs to the neighbor's house. Yes, girl. And they call the police. The police go she runs to the neighbor's house yes girl and she um they call the police the police go to her house and search her house and they find a wire fashioned into the shape of a noose um next to the bed and in a previous communication btk had promised that he was going to hang his next next victim so anna never anna never went back to the house hey hey we'll back it up keep her anna okay what a weird promise yeah you know like ice pinky swear uh uh so she never goes back to

the house but her daughter goes by to pick up the mail um and they find a letter addressed to anna's deceased husband um care of her and it looks very official but when they open it they find a pair of her pantyhose inside and a drawing of what he had intended to do to her with a poem called oh Anna why didn't you appear so this 66 year old woman who went square dancing instead of home didn't get killed by BTK because of that. So seven years later, it's September 16th, 1986. And Vicki Wegerle, who's only 28 years old, is found by her husband when he comes home from work, strangled and near death. So he calls the paramedics. They come, they work on her and they get her into the

ambulance and they get her to the hospital. Um, the crime scene is completely compromised because they're all walking all over it and she dies, um, uh, of her injuries. The police have no leads and the case goes cold. So 30 years later on the 30th anniversary of, uh btk killings the wichita eagle publishes a recap 30 years later and not and no new murders right i was on the wichita police force and i tell you what did it eat you up inside i wrote for the wichita eagle and three years later i was like who wait how has this not been solved it goes forward in

time and you have one gray wisp of hair like right on the side of your bob it's real stylish that's how we know the 30 years have passed for you that's it though because i've had botox ever since still so they have they publish a recap of what happened and the effect that it had on the city and um uh a couple days later a letter arrives at the wichita eagle and it contains a photocopy of vicky weger lee's driver's license and photos of her dead body posed um so it's the btk and he's letting the police know that he has not gone anywhere and he is not a part of history and he begins to communicate with the police um through statements in the newspaper and personal ads and um through letters and they the police basically convince him to start sending them packages because they know

anything that they have from him they can get now there's you know so much more forensic um science that they can apply to all this. Because, of course, back in the 70s, all they could do is collect stuff and put it in an envelope. Lick that stamp, motherfucker. Right. And put it on a fucking envelope. Exactly right. So, they're trying to get him to do all that.

At one point, he's actually caught on surveillance video in his black Jeep Cherokee dropping off a package to the police station what because he's like thinks he can never get caught um so uh at one point he asks the police if they can trace him through floppy disk and they the police say no no no of course not but the police are lying yeah no i guess this is my big reveal the police were lying to him i But the police are lying. Yeah. No, I guess that. This is my big reveal. The police were lying to him. Wait, I'm sorry. Police are not allowed to lie by law. Well, it turns out, in this case...

Wait, what? Yeah, you can. That's inadmissible. BTK, don't worry about a thing. And go ahead and send us that floppy disk. Because his thinking was... What a fucking idiot. He had so many maps he wanted to show them

and poems and things that he wanted to communicate to them that he didn't want to have to send it all individually. So he was like I'm just going to throw it all into a floppy disk and send that over to you and then you can have all my serial killer documents and they were like sounds great. Do it

right away. AP English or some shit I don't know what that means because i was never in ap english but i bet advanced placement that you couldn't do that no you can't yeah um so so they they of course trace him on that and they find out that the person sending all of this is a man named denn Rader. He's a husband and a father of two. He's the city dog catcher. He's a church elder and he was a boy scout leader. So he was in the entire time hiding in plain sight in Wichita. Oh my God. Any one of those seems like a serial killer job.

Yeah. But like all together, you know, like a dog catcher. Yeah. Well, do you remember that hometown that we had we had somebody send us a letter and they were from wichita and the story they told was they had a dog that got out and the the dog catcher lived in his neighborhood and the dog catcher took the dog and took him inside his house and then he went down to get the dog and the dog catcher was like no no no you're you have fines that you have to pay and you can't have this dog back. And I'm going to take him into the pound tomorrow morning and all this stuff.

The guy and the guy basically charged his neighbor and was like, I'll beat the shit out of you. Give me my dog back. And he got his dog back and went home. And then like a month later, it was revealed that that guy was BTK. So he basically almost got into a fistfight with a serial killer started some shit yeah and he's like give me my fucking dog that's amazing um forgot about that so essentially

dennis raider confessed to all of the killings and then he confessed to two cold cases that they didn't know were connected to the btk which one was a woman named katherine bright who was stabbed to death in her home she btk was waiting inside her house when she got home. He didn't know that she would be with her brother, Kevin, who he then shot and thought was dead, then went and attacked Catherine, and then Kevin got up and tried to fight him again, and then he strangled him and thought he was dead again

and then he murdered Catherine and then turned around and Kevin's body was gone. Kevin! Kevin had gotten up and fucking ran out of the house. Fuck yeah, Kevin. And called the police. Can you imagine how scary that was? Like even for a serial killer to turn around and the body's gone? Oh, dude.

Even for a serial killer. The most for a serial killer that even if you have no feelings at all you're like oh shit oh shit um so he on that case he or that crime he didn't clean up anything he didn't do this his normal um stuff that he would do he just like really quickly covered his tracks and ran out so he was positive he was going to get caught on that murder and he wasn't and then the other one um this this this is bad it was in 1985 he broke into the home of marine hedge um who was one of his neighbors and after her male guest left for the night he got he snuck out of her

closet turned down her bedroom light um he she sat up he pounced on her and strangled her to death and then he put her body in the trunk of his car oh no sorry the trunk of her own car and drove to the christ lutheran church where he eventually became a church elder and, uh, took pictures of her in various sexual bondage positions. Um, he had all of these pictures in his house and all of the pictures of all of his victims in his house.

When they arrested him, they found all of these files in his garage. Um, and so basically he entered guilty to all counts, all 10 murders, and he was given 10 consecutive life sentences. And he said, in an early letter that he blamed his murders on what he called factor X. He said he was a big serial killer aficionado himself. And he said that all serial killers had the same factor X from Jack the Ripper to the son of Sam. And he said that basically factor X was a demon. And he described it as something that controls his desire to kill.

And he drew it in varying ways, sometimes as a frog and sometimes as a more traditional looking demon. And that's the basics for the BTK killer, everybody. Okay, can we talk a little bit about the death penalty stuff? Why do serial killers tend, some of them get a pass? Like you shoot somebody, let's say, once by accident during, you know,

when you're robbing a gas station if you're if you live in kansas you're gonna get like the death penalty why the fuck does he like get a pass he's serving pled guilty right i mean i have no idea we are the last people you should be asking we have no idea i could speculate i'm the shit out of this but it's all speculation and i think it's because he made a deal that if he pled guilty he wouldn't get put to death right most likely you guys are both staring i don't know because then you don't have to put the families through the trial well also depends on state by state some places have the death penalty and some don't amy you could probably weigh in here um i'm a actually federal prosecutor holy shit why are

you not getting in here i mean i don't know i feel like a podcast called like my favorite narcotics distribution offense doesn't like really have no i want to hear that have the same ring no i don't actually do death penalty cases luckily for me so this So, this isn't really something I can weigh in on, but certainly there's lots of reasons. We don't do any of that. There's lots of reasons why somebody might not get the death penalty between like whatever the statute is to a plea agreement, like you said, or also there could be, you know, they might have a particular, I mean, there's just a lot, there's a lot of different reasons. Is it rare to get a death penalty case based on all the things you can do to avoid it, even to go to trial that way?

Yeah, you know, I mean, again, I do federal criminal law, so I don't... Speculate, again. This doesn't come up a ton. Speculation, this whole thing. I have worked on some death penalty matters. There were habeas petitions at the Ninth Circuit, and they were pretty horrible, gruesome cases. I did not enjoy it, so I don't know how you guys... I just don't, you know what I'm saying like i do this every day i don't like and where you know we tend to be

whatever okay i don't i don't mean to go off on my weird tangent why that's what this podcast is but i but truly like why like it seems like all right if we're going to accept the death penalty which i i'm not in like favor of just in general on an ethical basis but if you're gonna do if we're gonna do it as a nation seems like the btk guy well you know that seems like top of the list yeah yeah right right yeah yeah well a lot of the for me a lot of the sentencing and and that sort of thing doesn't really make a lot of sense there's not like a there's not a clear-cut one where it's like well he did this so this is going to happen because historically this is how these people get charged i just wonder if like the gruesomeness of fascination like is adds this undercurrent of

like um do we weirdly clearly like kind of appreciate the the obsession and and the oddness of mentality and value that in a way that um or we can learn from it in some way i mean i think it's interesting i definitely don't like value it or appreciate it like it's i don't think that the fascination is a positive no not at all of course not. Yeah, but there is something different about the fascination of mind of somebody like this, whereas somebody else we're a little more dismissive of. Yeah, we'll inject you. Well, I always think it was a really interesting decision, Yeah, we'll inject you.

Well, I always think it was a really interesting decision. And maybe even we lost something in the fact that Ted Bundy was put to death. Because I feel like there's so much we can let the extreme of being a sociopath and psychotic. We could have learned so much about the human brain based on just interviews with Ted Bundy, not with people who could be tricked. You know what I mean? And like, so we put him to death and it's like, well, we kind of put ourselves out of a learning experience in a way. I mean, he was going to stay in prison for the rest of his fucking life.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, I agree with you. My uncle lived across the street from him, by the way.

In Seattle? Yeah. Start over. No, that's all I know. Just that he lived, um, my uncle lived right across the street

where Ted Bundy lived in, he rented a room in an attic. Is this the same uncle who made the guillotine that is on your front porch? Yes, it is. Holy shit. He sounds like a badass motherfucker. He is. He's awesome. Uncle Roger. Uncle Roger.

Roger, get on the podcast. So, okay, I'm sorry. I did not mean to go off on that. No, no, no, no, no no not at all um no because i was thinking about that like it is the like ted bundy was interviewed a bunch at the end of his life but i think people get so it's like you murder almost 40 women and after a while people just like get rid of him like we don't care what he has to say anymore it's not that idea of like him getting to have which i'm i also don't even know he has to say anymore it's not that idea of like him getting to have a which I'm I also don't even know how I feel about the death penalty

I'm definitely not advocating for it but I do see the mentality of people just being like do you want a daddy night in this gorgeous home guillotine on the front porch this whole thing is going to turn into like some kind of game

that Anna's playing with us oh and they'll be magical she tried to kill us in all different ways my favorite run but like dennis what i think is fascinating about dennis raider is he was um like when he was the dog catcher he was they called it like the city i can't remember the name of the term that was on the side of the van of this really good made for tv movie i watched but he would do things like go around and measure people's lawns and if your lawn was too high he would like take a picture of it and like give people a warning and there was a story in this movie and i'm i didn't have time to see if it was real because i didn't know how to fact check it but he in but I think it probably

they put it in based on something he really did which is if somebody's dog got out he would bring it to the pound and then tell the person they had to talk to him before the pound would release the dog to the person and then and so he would say they have five days to contact him and then he wouldn't answer his phone and then the pound would kill the animal he did that in in this made for tv movie he did that to one woman and i remember hearing about other things like that so it's like this person who is taking these weird little like you know those people that love control and love power even though it's like the dog catcher power so i could see that in a way where ted bundy would get off on being interviewed and it's like he's not really being punished he doesn't give a shit about staying in prison the rest of his life

because all these people want to know about him so it's almost like kill that motherfucker it's a really fucked up way to approach fame isn't it like like yeah like if you just want to be famous yeah I was gonna go through like two different avenues I just knew when I was eight that I just really wanted to be famous quote famous acting or killer or whatever else it takes if killing

doesn't work then you go with acting I mean they're very similar but truly though like the psychology I guess maybe this is what you're getting at, Karen, is the idea of like, like the idea that he clearly wanted desperately to be known. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

He himself, you know. He's the reason he got caught. His own need for that fame. Like even two people almost got put into prison because of the, you know, who admitted to it. Like you should be like, great people almost got put to put into prison uh because of the you know who admitted to it like you should be like great i got off of it he would have been it would have been a lot yeah that'd be the old double jeopardy thing we talk about where if those people were prosecuted for his crimes then he would have he would have been innocent and he couldn't let that

happen because he wanted the credit my question is a fucking applied engineer book at the library you think people check that out enough that they're gonna find out they're gonna find that letter that he wrote applied engineer no no i think he no i think he put it in just specifically for the cops i don't think he stuck it there like forever but okay he went and put it in and then called and said it's in this book because it was 11 months i thought he was just waiting for some engineer student to go check this book out like smart people will get this oh yeah no no i think you just rolled on up to the library listen i think george is totally right i don't know no i think he was like this is an obscure one but maybe like someday yeah yeah some lucky nerd who loves numbers this isn't a post-secret book where they like hide people hide their real secrets listen uh that was fucked up i'm glad

you did that one i feel like i feel like we don't do like famous serial killers a lot but they're so such interesting stories like ted bundy it's like we wouldn't we have a lot i grew up um north of seattle and there's there's like we have a lot I grew up north of Seattle and there's there's like yeah you guys know you're nodding your heads Pacific Northwest

yeah I know it's something yeah you guys got it some of the rain uh huh uh huh

loneliness loneliness depression in the rain control not enough people getting laid I don't know

so many layers of clothing all the time yes that wool that scratches on you until you kill. So do you remember a lot of this from when you were a kid? Well, we had the Green River Killer.

Right. Yeah. Did you hear a lot about it? Oh, yeah. It was like in the news all the time, like another body found, another body found, another body found. And then I heard a story that, i don't know you guys might know more about this but um that apparently his co-workers at the gas or whatever he the car mechanic place that he worked at um would joke that he there would be they'd be like dudes the

green river killer no because he's so boring i think you know what there's like the scent there's the sense of creepiness that we're taught to ignore and especially as women um oh yeah and like because we want to be polite we want to be kind but some maybe somewhere in us there's that little tug of like oh yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah. Not surprising. Might be a little creepy. Maybe you should avoid that.

The eyes are bad on that one. That's what I always think. Bad eyes. Yeah. And also, it's that like overly nice creepy that you can't really explain. It's the same thing of when like when the guys guys who put girls who, when a girl puts you in the friend zone, they're like, you don't want a nice guy. And it's like, no, we don't want a creep.

Who's like, who's being nice to us. Not, I don't know where I'm going on this. Like no one who has an agenda. Agenda. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Okay. Sim just passed me my note sheet here. Are we supposed to? Yeah. This is my subtle like transition. Okay. You used to be way better at segways you did he said it's a very strange show by the way it's a very strange segue how do we go from that murder to relationship deal breakers i mean serial killer relationship

deal breaker okay um okay so imagine you're single Deal breakers, ready? He calls spaghetti paschetti Nope Goodbye Bye He gets his balls professionally waxed every month No That's polite Shave them

Waxing is fucking What's the word? It's torture Maybe he likes it though That's part of it Shave them Shave them It seems like there would be an awful lot of cuts, no?

Everyone calm down and shave your balls Okay great uh he thinks oj was framed oh that's you're like asking us to say yes to these questions they're not yeah no karen i mean i feel like these days with all these documentaries come out it's hard to know you have to really stay neutral on a lot of things so you love arguing you can still go out with this fella i mean it's fine if he's passionately yelling about it in my face constantly then no oh then i'd say yes singular passion i love nothing more than to argue loudly at a bar with people about something i don't even tell i was yelling at vince we're talking about aliens at a bar and he was like i really don't like doing this it's like oh my god i'm wait are you pro or con aliens yeah well it depends on what I'm what side I'm arguing oh I'm pro you're just doing whatever you're just arguing yeah I'm pro

I like the idea that you know we're not like this singular like a sort of abyss of loneliness just that there's other. You doing okay? Over there? No. No, I'm not. We're all together. We're all together now. Here we are.

Yep, there's other things out there. We got to believe it. Okay, during sex, he puts his finger up your butt. Without asking? Oh. As a surprise? We didn't clarify. Yeah, without asking. Yeah.

First time? Are we talking like seventh time? Let's say it's fourth time. I need to be asked. I need to be asked. It's a weird ask. It is a weird ask. Georgia, may I put my index finger up your anus?

No, I'm going to go pass on that. Karen's being real quiet on this one. I'm just thinking. I'm thinking about stuff. I'm just fantasizing. You know. Guys, it's all sensation. I feel like our culture really makes us feel bad about stuff.

I am so with you on that. Yeah. So we know your answers. Two proud yeses or whatever. Two not proud. Okay. He eats placenta in a shake every morning he's got a hookup you know lady or i mean not guy like lady or animal yeah it's wolf placenta

so then yeah it's fine because then he's i'm gonna go ahead and say a firm no on this one there's take vitamins Yeah I don't think that's the way you have to do it So many vitamins out there Okay guys But you know There's immortality involved

It is there But you can still get hit by a car Even if you eat placenta Yes or no I'm right Nope Nope What?

Not if you eat it every day You jump right over that car. You become immune to cars. That's amazing. Now I want to eat placenta every day. That's it? I want more placenta. I know. That was fun. That was fun. Hi, I'm Una Chaplin, and I'm the host of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles.

It tells the story of how my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many others were caught up in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Interac. Interac has a range of tools to help your business grow. Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified.

Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac e-transfer for business. Or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus, your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business. Learn how at interact.ca slash for business. Terms and conditions apply. So we're going to actually move on to a device call right now. We're going to call Katie, and she's in LA, and she's 25. We're going to call Katie and she's in LA and she's 25.

Hello. Hey Katie. It's Sam. How are you? Hi, I'm good. How are you? Here's Anna.

Hi Katie. Hi Anna. We have two really special guests here. We have Karen and Georgia from my favorite murder. Hi. Hi. Shut the fuck up. You shut up. I was, you Shut the fuck up. You shut up. Do you know who they are?

I take it you know who they are. Yeah, no. I literally only listen to like three podcasts, and one is Anna's, and one is My Favorite Murder. So yeah, I definitely know who you guys are. Oh, hell yeah. Who are we competing with?

Yeah. Who's the third? Do you know My Brother, My Brother and Me? Oh, yeah. Travis is great. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's my third uh do you know my brother my brother and me with the McElroy brothers Travis is great yeah of course yeah that's my my third excellent well Katie tell us why your boyfriend's co-worker is making you feel uncomfortable yeah so um just a little background my boyfriend uh and I have been dating for five and a half years um we've known each other since preschool um we're best friends, you know,

the whole thing. I moved to LA in January for a job. He moved after me. We moved in together. He got a job also, which I was really excited about. I was kind of nervous about him moving with me. I didn't want there to be any resentment if he like hated LA or anything like that. So he eventually starts kind of, you know, making friends at work and going out with coworkers and things like that. And there's one guy that would just kind of make snide comments about like, if my boyfriend and I already had plans, you know, to make dinner or something that night, and he was out with them at a bar, he would say, you know, okay, guys, you know, to make dinner or something that night. And he was out with them at a bar, he would say, you know, okay, guys, I gotta, you know, head home, like, Katie and I are having dinner together. And the guy would just kind of make these comments, like, Oh, yeah, I gotta get

back and like, make dinner for your girlfriend and blah, blah, like, or got it, you know, you're whipped or whatever, like, she's, like, I don't know, know things like that and he would make these comments in front of all of the guys that they hang out with um and then eventually he kind of started making them in front of me toward like to me directly so like for example one night we all went out to a bar for one of their birthdays and uh my boyfriend and I are going to leave. And the guy comes up to me and, you know, like hugs me goodbye. And he's like, you know, thank you so much for actually letting him come out with us tonight and stuff like that. And I was like, what the fuck dude? Like, I mean,

and it's kind of one of those things where like I, in, in any other like friendship, if someone were, you know, ragging on me like that, someone that I actually knew, I'd be well like fuck off whatever i don't care but like it's kind of a situation where i don't know this person and it's like a new co-worker and i don't want to like jeopardize his friendships and things like that and so i don't really know how to handle it i guess is my question here oh my god i have so many thoughts i know let's just let's go down the line no no no you guys go first well what is what does your boyfriend say when do you guys talk about it yeah so he's he's very non-confrontational like i would definitely say

that i am uh the person to be like fuck off he's kind of the person to just ignore it and not pay attention to it not really like give it life i guess you could say so he's kind of the one that's just like oh haha oh i hate that so much that makes me so angry yeah my husband's like that too um me too because i've definitely confrontation i'm like yeah say something bad that's my first thought no is he defending you at all? Um, I mean, I don't really know. I haven't been in front of that. Like, I mean, he didn't hear it whenever the guy said it to me personally. So I... So he laughs it off because he's afraid, like, oh, he's a professional connection.

And he'll laugh it off and he'll go back home and he'll just kind of take it. But inside, I'm sure it really hurts him and it hurts you. It's completely disrespectful. i hate this guy right i guess to to me like because whenever we've kind of talked about it one-on-one here um he's just kind of like well if i don't feel like you're controlling or that i'm whipped or we have something wrong in our relationship then why does it matter what this random guy thinks i guess which i get but at the same time it's just kind of like i don't know what to say to this dude and i wish that i could have something to like give my boyfriend that's

non-confrontational to like be like hey man maybe like gently fuck off kind of thing i don't know no he has to say that he has i would tell him to completely fuck off that's what i would say but yeah i get it he has a job and it's his co-worker have you ever tried cupping his face in your hands and saying who hurt you you could do something like that because it really does sound like a person who yeah is either jealous of you like kind of into your boyfriend there's a lot of possibilities going on but the idea that you would be actively trying to like, pick on someone because they have a relationship is very, it doesn't, it's not a good

sign for you as a person, if that's something you feel the need to do. And I feel like there's something to be revealed in that guy. And maybe your boyfriend gets the sense that he's like one of those aggro dudes that he just doesn't want to like start anything with. I bet this guy, the minute your boyfriend and I want to say like, it bothers me that he's being called a friend and your boyfriend doesn't want to fuck with the friend and you don't want to ruin his friendship. That guy's not a friend. And the minute I bet your boyfriend who absolutely should say something to him says something, this kid will fucking start crying. Like I bet he's so fragile i don't think i don't think his feelings should be taken into consideration don't we think that like somebody's like like don't you think that he's loves her or

like lusts after her or like is either her or him yeah there's something i think her there's jealousy i think it's katie like i i think that the dude is like, like lusting after Katie. No, I don't agree with any of you guys. I really think that this guy is just an asshole. Sam, I'm very fun and attractive. Thank you, Katie. I totally feel that from you. I can hear it in your voice.

Sorry, Katie. I feel like the minute, though, you put like this romantic spin on it and oh he's listening like then it's like he deserves some kind of kindness which if he is in love with you and lusting after you well that's his fucking problem and he's showing it the wrong way and that's that's just this this whole thing I feel like there needs to be a way to explain to your boyfriend how much this affects you and the minute he he needs to know that you're the person he should be defending not this fucking douchebag yeah that would bother me a lot also that kind of that um young dude thing of like oh you're whipped or you you go home and

eat dinner together therefore that's a bad thing right it's indicative of a mindset that isn't healthy and isn't good like that those are those kinds of guys who are like women do this to men or whatever and he's so comfortable saying it and quote-unquote joking about it that that's and that's another thing that that i don't know i when i'm anytime i'm around guys that are like that word i just i'm like i just want to get away from that person like maybe that's not to defend the boyfriend so much but maybe he's just getting a sense of like this isn't one of those guys you want to get on the bad side of and so it's putting him in this weird position I was with um a guy a long time ago in my early 20s and uh his best friend told him, he's like, oh, you're so pussy whipped.

And then the dude told me that, that the best friend said that. And I had such complicated feelings because it was like, well, what are you trying to get out of me that you would tell me that? And also, what the fuck is this dude? Maybe you, I don't know. You're right, Karen, though. It's that way of communicating that feels really youthful yeah that um that and also and manipulative and and weird and and filled with envy yeah and like envy and angry yeah yeah because it's also that thing of like oh i'm joking i'm joking you're like hiding behind a joke but you're taking it too seriously

but you're actually just sending a real message which is let him do what he wants and fuck off. Katie, I hate to say it, but I don't mean to like, I don't want to diminish your relationship at all, because maybe you're so crazy about your boyfriend that you want to marry him and be with him forever or whatever. But I do. I think that the fact that there's a little bit of a bro before ho culture happening here can I say that's not safe for you something I noticed too like way in the beginning that I that might be connected is when you said that you he moved here for you and you want you would feel bad if he wasn't happy here and so you don't want to get in the way it's not your responsibility to make sure that a decision he made is then you know it's not on you for him to be happy so you being annoyed that this person

he works with who's not even his friend like gets upset with him isn't your responsibility in the same way that him finding a life and being happy here after he made the decision to move here it's not your responsibility either which is a hard thing to I can't deal with that at all I'm learning it in therapy but like it's just none of that is your responsibility you you have yourself to worry about yeah yeah we have to start yeah very true thinking a little bit more individually like like collectively as women and i i was going to say a little more like men but that also feels that feels like we're handing over power there but i think in general don't you guys think that like we like it's important to impart on because for

years i would think about just how my identity through men yeah and um and i think it's important to sort of explore the idea of like let's not let's not fucking do that anymore let's like let's think about ourselves let's be selfish you know as my mom always said be selfish in love never listen selfish it's just like but but self-care yeah yeah selfish is a good word for it well but but because i think we have to redefine everything like as a gender. Yeah. I also wonder if you've discussed it in this way, if you had this group of girlfriends that you were going out with and there was one that was giving him shit about hanging around and like, why don't you leave her alone? And how would he feel if it was going back the other way? And not even not even like a demand of answer me right now. But think of what this would be like

if this exact situation was flipped and it was happening to you just put yourself in my shoes because i also think there's that thing of you know they say that like when there's a problem guys freak out and they want to fix it they don't you know they just it's like he doesn't know how to fix it and it's a work thing and it's like very problematic. So his, his solution is just don't let this be a problem to you. But really, I think what he needs to think about is, is you, like we're saying, and how it affects you and how would it feel to him if there was somebody kind of letting him know that he wasn't welcome and that he's a bummer, but you know, that, that like your friends think he's a bummer. That's so shitty. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I definitely know how that situation would go, because like I said, I don't care about telling people to fuck off or whatever. But I haven't really presented the idea to him like that, like reverse, like said to him specifically, you know, if this were happening to you, I would have your back kind of thing. Yeah. So, yeah, that might be an interesting. It'll be, it'll be a revealing test, like, with your boyfriend a little bit, like, how he sort of absorbs, if you can be honest with him about all of this, and, and, and really, and, like, have a long conversation about it. It'll be a revealing test for how he respects you, and you respect yourself, and you respect the relationship. Yeah, because the first thing I was thinking of

is the fear that this guy is voicing something that your boyfriend might not be able to say. And that, I think, might be where the pain able to say. And that I think might be where the pain is coming from. And so it'd be like, if this guy stops talking, then that means that whole idea is gone. But really, that fear is just like, is this actually an issue here? Is this, you know, do you need is that are you unable to talk about that you want to spend less time together? So it's now we're introducing somebody that's introducing the idea so that he's not a part of it. And I obviously don't know you and don't know anything about it. But that's, I always think about that when I in relationships focus on

things that later on, I realized, I was just focusing on something else. Because I didn't want to like put my hands on what the real problem was. Yeah, no, I mean, I've never really considered that. But that may would make a lot of sense. I also have like a lot of like, I really try very hard not to be like controlling in any way or anything like that. I mean, I don't feel like I really am anyway. But I do make it a point. just because like his last girlfriend was kind of like just fucking nuts and would like like not even let him hang out with guys alone or anything like that like would have to just be present like with him all the time if he was going to be doing anything social just remember that that's that's what he presented to you like if you talked to her and

heard her side of the story that might not be true and like you don't have to be the chill girl like I feel like we all try so hard to be like I don't care I'm so fucking chill you know and you're allowed to have your emotions and one of those emotions sometimes is piss the fuck off yeah I love oh no I'm definitely crazy like I'm definitely a crazy girl also and he knows that full-on but then sometimes it's also like, I think a good way to approach an issue that you have instead of, you know, being pissed off is to go, my feelings are really hurt by this thing and here's why. And someone can't get,

I feel like if someone gets mad at you for saying, I have really hurt feelings and this makes me really sad and they get mad at you for it, that's not on you. Yeah, and Katie, you know, yeah, don't be afraid of the future you're young yeah you're in la there's a lot of amazing people out there don't feel afraid to like feel your independence if if not everything if things aren't right i made that mistake i think a little bit like feeling like i'm checking my relationship off the list. And, um, and if that would be the, like the final advice

that I could give you would be like, no, no, your worth, no, your independence, know that you're young and there's so many people out there. There's so, there's so much life experience. I hope you get to live it all. And, uh, and you know, and, and experience a whole lot of people. And life is too short for you to be in relationships where you're not feeling like this isn't fully right or somebody doesn't have your back or somebody doesn't value you in every way. Because I view this as a bigger problem with you and your boyfriend than anything else. And so, so please, please take that. And, and hopefully, I don't know that that's at the. Katie, are you good with this advice? Yeah, I guess.

I mean, do you know what I'm saying though? Like have, have intimate conversations. I also just was curious, like, I don't know how to, if he, if this guy, the co-worker were to say something to me again in person, I guess I'm just confused about how to. What did he say to you in person? He was like, oh, thanks so much for letting like your boyfriend come out tonight. And your boyfriend didn't say anything to him? He didn't hear him. He literally said it like in my ear as he was hugging me. It sounds he's hitting on you and it but it also sounds like if your boyfriend doesn't understand like like if you can't be honest with him and have like because listen like shit tons of people are going to hit on you katie

we live in fucking la it's going to happen all the time but the bigger the bigger thing in my opinion is the the relationship with your boyfriend and if he isn't if he if he isn't fully empathetic then that's something that you that's on you then then you need to examine do i want to spend time do i want to invest time in this relationship and a knee to the nuts in the meantime is a great fucking way to shut someone up. You know what I'm saying? But I hope that you know that like, like the coworker truly aside, yeah, he's a creep and he wants to fuck you. And, but there's going to be a gazillion of those experiences that you'll have

throughout the years here. So I just think that the bigger question is the relationship with your boyfriend. And that's my very strong opinion and i'm very unqualified to do any of this hey katie thank you so much for hanging out with us tonight yeah katie will you give us thank you so much uh stay sexy don't get murdered and fuck you sim all right thanks bye bye guys bye all right that's gonna end part one so next week All right. Thanks. Bye. Bye, guys. Bye. All right. That's going to end part one.

So next week, we have part two where Anna will start off with your favorite murder. And then Georgia, we have yours. We have one more call. And then let's take a little break. We'll be right back. Or next week. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye.