My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - 9 - Color Me Nine

Episode Date: March 26, 2016

The theme for this episode is "hiding in plain sight." Karen covers an Exorcist serial killer and Georgia talks about children who murder. Plus stories and favorites from listeners! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is exactly right. in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Interac. Interac has a range of tools to help your business grow. Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified. Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac eTransfer for Business.

Or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus, your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business. Learn how at interact.ca slash forbusiness. Terms and conditions apply. Murder, murder, murder. Are you ready for some money we should look up uh synonyms for murder okay for this podcast okay oh for the the titles of

the podcast no no just in general so we don't say that word as much oh right yeah um being taken out violently assassinations assassinations what are we going to name this episode, do you think? It's number nine. Yeah. Nine. Non-lives. That's pretty much how this goes. Spitballing.

It doesn't get better after that. Never. Welcome, everybody, to my favorite murder. Hi. That's Georgia Hart Stark. That's Karen Kilgara. I said it like I wasn't sure. I know. never welcome everybody to my favorite murder hi that's georgia hart stark that's karen kilgariff i said it like i wasn't sure i know that's georgia georgia georgia right georgia hartshurst the worst is when someone misspells your name in a professional setting when they should absolutely spell your name correctly yes right karen kilgariff with a complicated last

name yes uh that's happened to me many many times. Also, the worst is when people say your last name, who you've known for years, and you realize that they always thought it was Kilgareff. Kilgareff? Or Kilgareff. When you're like, well, I wish you knew me more. I know. Hardstock?

What the fuck? Hard and stark are two very simple words, and yet somehow, next to each other, people freak the fuck out. People freak although i do do that thing where when i see somebody that i know for sure uh like if i ran into dustin right i would in my mind i'd go hi dustin and when i would go to say it what if i'm wrong yes oh my god i do that too except when i see someone that i for sure know like dustin i'll scream their name in front of them because I'm so excited that I know them you know what I mean like you want the credit yeah because normally I'm like I don't know who

the I know who you are yeah but I don't think I do and I'm the kind of person if I mess it up and the person's like don't worry about it I won't stop talking about it right or worrying about it right or let me go people call me Allie sometimes and I'm't stop talking about it. Right. Or worrying about it. Right. Or letting it go. People call me Allie sometimes and I'm like, it's okay. It's not okay. It's okay. But it's not. Well, I mean, you should at least get one letter right.

Totally. The first letter. Totally. Is all I ask. I love that you have that word kill in your name too. Oh, me too. I find it intimidates people. Yeah. We both have kind of like hardcore

badass last names you have a like yours is reminiscent of charles starkweather the famous spree killer sure that we're not talking about on this episode but that we okay we know what i want to talk about up up top before we start our favorite murders before we start this bullshit yeah is someone knows something the podcast yes are you i texted you the other day because i knew you were driving i was no i was in new york i was flying oh nice yeah and i was like you gotta listen to this yeah and i did all of them all well there were only three right there's a new one oh is there really good i'll listen to all of my drive so this is i didn't realize it when I started listening, but it's like, it's the entire

season of this podcast is about one topic. Yeah. Should I read the description? Sure. Because it's good. It's fucking great. On June 12th, 1972, five-year-old Adrian McNaughton wandered away from his family at a lake in Eastern Ontario and disappeared without a trace.

In season one of Someone Knows Something, host David Riggen, who grew up in the area, goes back and search for answers. And I had heard of this case and I'd never cared because I was like, he got eaten by bears, clearly. But no. The more he goes into it, like, that's what I like about it, is you make up a thing. You hear facts from him and then you go, oh, it's that guy or it's this thing. And then he keeps laying down hard facts that he goes out and looks at himself.

Yeah. and then he keeps laying down hard facts that he goes out and looks at himself yeah so there's recordings of him walking in the woods testing the echo talking to people who have never talked to anybody about it right who were they it was one guy who was there that when he wandered away and the police had never spoken to him about it it's pretty it's a pretty great show i hope it stays that way so good and and i find sometimes i get a little bit impatient and this is sexist of me but when the boys get a little um wistful and poetic about their own thoughts and feelings about things where i'm just like uh-huh that's the opposite of sexist and i love it because that's always sexist against women fucking getting being poetic about shit true true but i mean like i just have

that thing where yeah i just don't want anyone to be precious really but then i find it slightly more sickening if it's a man because because i've bought into our cultural stereotypes and norms right but when this guy does it i buy it i feel like he's being sincere i don't think it's self self no uh conscious or self-serving he seems so sincere that it's don't think it's self self. No, conscious or self serving. He seems so sincere that it's great. And it's clear that he's written out everything he's saying. It's more of a story he's telling and the writing is good. And he tells the story in not a boring way, like some of the other true crime podcasts do. Right. The music is a little dramatic at times in the soundtracks. The sound is a little dramatic. But he's Canadian.

But it's okay. So they have a sincerity. Oh, totally. That they don't fear that here in America is almost not allowed. Right. And I like to indulge in that with a Canadian man every once in a while. I love this podcast. It's our new The Simpsons, what we talk about at the beginning of every episode.

Which of course means The People vs. OJ Simpsons. Yeah. Not OJ Simpsons? As many OJ Simpsons as it takes to discuss it although the last episode I have to say the one about the jury was not so I feel like I loved it you did you didn't like it I mean I loved

knowing I didn't know any of that I didn't either what a fucking bummer to be stuck in a hotel and you can't speak to anyone or for months and then they didn't treat them well no it was it was good in that it was um kind of riveting but it was riveting in it almost like in a uh telenovela way yeah ridiculously dramatic it kind of took us off the um track that we were already on with all the episodes it felt like we were moving forward and

this one didn't really feel like it was moving forward no but the other thing i like it felt very different yeah but i also loved marcia clark in her new hair she looks hot right she looks great in that hair and also she was so badass yeah this one there was no she didn't do any like rim tears on the rim her eyes or putting her head in her hands she told uh she told what's this johnny crockering to go to the playground or something or what was it the daycare go to daycare because this is the smoker's lounge yeah and i was like okay if that really happened which it probably didn't i'm so happy about i feel like it could have it could have i mean by that point she's so pissed so many things things like DNA evidence got completely ignored.

I mean, I feel like today that wouldn't happen. No, no one knew what it was. Yeah. What I'm loving more than anything is David Schwimmer's character, like realizing his friend is a fucking murderer and him apologizing to his wife. Yeah. That that he's defending. Yeah. He's defending a man who murdered her best friend.

Yeah. What a bummer. What a terrible i mean yeah i wonder if he had quit the trial would would he not died of cancer would he not have died of cancer and would have oj gotten off probably not oh oh you mean during it sorry yes yeah i see what you mean yeah yeah yeah i mean no that would have been bad news exactly so maybe that should have been his like non-statement statement that he's like, I can't support this anymore. Yeah. Except for that, then you're basically choosing how a person's life is going to go.

Yeah. But defending him, you're doing the same thing. Or you're trying to at least. I know, Georgia. It's so heavy. There's a lot of decisions in life that one has to make and it's not until they make a dramatic reenactment tv show 20 years later about it that you realize the decisions you should have made yeah i mean please live your life like you're going to be reenacted in 30 years

and do you want someone of as high quality as sarah paulson to portray you yeah then you need to live your life like like sarah paulson could be yes your you a quiet nobility right a single tear or do you want john fucking travolta being the most flamboyant incredible character since behind the candelabra and maybe even better though but i don't mind it like oh i love it it doesn't bring me out of it i never think of john travolta i believe him i i do too i i don't know if robert shapiro is like that i have to assume he's somewhat like that in personal situations and i love it i'd like to sing this a tune of praise for the very unsung nathan lane is f lee bailey nathan lane is f of the base great and yeah nathan nathan lane who knew he'd be in this i got so excited very unsung. Nathan Lane is F. Lee Bailey. Nathan Lane is F. Lee Bailey. Yeah, Nathan Lane.

Who knew he'd be in this? I got so excited. Yeah, he's almost unrecognizable, not only because of his wig, but because I just believe it's that guy. I do too. And F. Lee Bailey is such a noble character that it had to be played by someone excellent.

And Nathan Lane is a beloved actor, perfect for that role right oh guys we did not watching it we've ruined it if you're not watching it you've ruined yourself you've you've ruined it for yourself there's nothing more we can ruin in your life um how's it going everything else all right oh yeah everything's good not murdered yet uh i'm fucking the facebook group is like near and dear to my heart at this point the facebook book group is making me regret leaving facebook if you want to sign up a fake account fake name i will not out you but it is such a it is such a pleasing place to go when i have insomnia and just talk to like

everyone is so fucking cool. I comment and I post things and I read everyone's posts and it's just like really fun. And the discussions we get into and the comments people make, everyone's nice. There hasn't been anything racist or mean yet. I haven't had to kick one person out, which is like shocking for Facebook. I thought we were really big in the racist community. Damn it. Well, we are. big in the racist community. Damn it. Well, we are. They just keep it quiet.

Oh, yeah. They behave appropriately. And this is our ninth episode and there's already 1,500 people in the Facebook group. Fuck yeah, you guys. Thank you. It turns out everyone needed a place to talk about murder. Well, it is fascinating. It truly is.

We actually, somebody at work today started talking about HH Holmes. Yeah. And literally in my head, I had to say like a teacher, don't say anything, Karen. Let her tell her story. Don't be a no at all. Don't. I like had to press my lips together because all I want to do is be like, get out of my house.

Yeah. And like just jump all over. Don't you want to be like, murder is mine. Yes. Like I'm the one who talks. You don't get to talk about murder. Yes. I talk about murder. I think, though, that's a that's kind of a good lesson just in general, because I think I've been that way about more than murder.

Me too. It's such a hard thing not to be like. But it's like if someone brings it up themselves, let them tell the story. Let them have it. Murder doesn't belong to you or whatever it is doesn't. I'm not telling you. I'm telling myself. I totally agree. Oh, that, I'm not telling you, I'm telling myself, I totally agree.

Oh, that wasn't to me. No, that was to me in any conversation. Oh, not, Oh yeah. Did you know that?

Yeah. You know, it's so hard. And then when you're like, Oh, well, and you'd like bring up something that, that compares to it.

You just sound like an asshole unless you're, you're sincerely wanting to bring up another murder. You're, you're, instead of saying like, well, this is how much I know about it, which I do all the up another murder. You're, you're, instead of saying like, well, this is how much I know about it, which I do all the time.

Yes. We could, this podcast could also go into the areas of etiquette, general etiquette. Well, I do it in this podcast too, of not wanting to speak over you. Like I just did,

but it's, it's fine with me. Okay. Well, I don't want you and I, okay. Well, not wanting to speak over you.

Also not wanting to be like, yeah, no, I know that murder you're about to talk about. But it delights me when you do that. I think it's hilarious. There was one you had that I kept trying to add to and kept telling myself to shut the fuck up in my head because it was so obnoxious. But it's hard. For me, it's hard when you read a thing by yourself and you're like, there was a man in Chicago during the World's Fair that built a basically built a murder hotel. And I'm just finding out now. And I read it with what I imagine other people read like books when they go to college. I read it with the same enthusiasm and kind of like absorption. So then when somebody else starts talking about it, I want them to know that I know, like, I want them to know that you're cool.

I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. I, I want to like scream and grab each other's shoulders. I want that feeling with people I don't know. I do, too. And I want them to know that I'm on the level with them and we can have this conversation instead of like and also like I've been there. Like, don't keep telling you're going to keep telling me about it. And then you're going to find out that I have a true crime podcast. And you're like, why didn't you say anything that you knew about this? Especially really the book,

the devil in the white city. Yes. That's what we were talking. Did you read that? No. Yeah. That's it. That's what we,

I had to wait till she was done and then kind of like take a beat. I was really using it as like an exercise. Yeah. And then someone goes, I think they're making a movie. I think there was a book. And then I was like, don't say it. The second the words out of them. And then I was like, that's right.

It's called Devil. Yeah. But then if I were the girl who brought it up, I'd be like, wait. So this whole time you've been letting me mansplain something to you and you knew about it. But also sometimes mansplaining is just talking. Sometimes we sometimes people get to talk to us knowing something and we can accept that yeah and we don't have to know we don't have to tell them but i know yes you don't have to i know everything

yeah we can be not in the position of victim or somebody that's being oppressed you can assume that person doesn't have the power to oppress you and you're just being polite and letting them letting them them be a know-it-all is an okay thing to do. But then they're never going to get to know you because you didn't tell them that you know shit. That's very true. But I'm also, this is a work situation where I can't, I have to let my personality out bit by bit because it's a lot. You can't scream in someone's face. Yes. I love murder. As my mom used to say,

you're too much. And she meant it very literally. Yeah. Well, we're a lot. And that's why we have true crime podcast, a murder podcast. We could.

Yeah. This podcast could literally go for four hours. Yeah. That's why we're friends is because the first time we actually hung out on our own, we had a five hour lunch. Yeah, we did just talking. And the whole time i kept thinking am i the only one that wants to stay right she trapped right but we it was clear that we were both voluntarily eating lunch for five hours yeah and the conversation flowed it wasn't one-sided

that's right um i think i think do you speaking of one-sided. We still have our doubts. We are good. We are great. Anxiety is real. Speaking of one-sided and talking about a thing. Yes. Do you want to do your favorite murderer? I think you're first.

Do you want me to go first? Yeah. So we, tell me, you picked this, you picked this, you told me this week's theme in a way that I already knew

that you knew what you were doing. Yes. I read, I, what they call reverse engineered this week's theme in a way that I already knew that you knew what you were doing. Yes. I read what they call reverse engineered this week's theme because I had to do this story because one of our, now I'm afraid, I guess I'll say his first name and last initial because one of our listeners DM'd us, which I adore. He DM'd us like so as not to embarrass, I think. But he was like, how could you have talked about the exorcist and not talked about this? And he sent me a link and all this stuff. And I wrote back in all caps,

holy shit, how did I miss this? So that's where mine started. So then when I, um, talked to Georgia, I was like, can this week's be like hiding in plain sight or murders that like it,

they were right there the whole time. Okay. Kind of thing. Uh, because be like hiding in plain sight or murders that like it they were right there the whole time okay kind of thing uh because in the exorcist one of the biggest stories and i swear i looked at over five websites about my exorcist cursed um movie set that is which was my thing last week if you didn't hear it um but brian b our uh listener listener sent us his DM because there was a guy in the exorcist and he was the guy that played the radiologist, radiologist, something's wrong with my mouth.

Words. Radiologist assistant in the scene we talked about that I said was so creepy where she was in that crazy machine getting like the MRI. Um, that I said was so creepy where she was in that crazy machine getting like the MRI. The guy that plays the assistant in that scene turned out to be a serial killer. No. Yes. Like a serial killer, serial killer.

A legit six victim, straight up New York in the 70s serial killer. That just reminded me of something when I gasped is that there is a thread on the Facebook group that every time I say, holy shit, you get to take a shot. Or when I gasped is that there is a thread on the Facebook group that every time I say holy shit you have to take a shot or when I say no or when I got like there's certain things and then when you say when you sing a word like a thing like yes it is you have to take a shot it's pretty hilarious it's very light-hearted it's not in a mean way at all no no no please okay um but now i don't want to be self-conscious about it and do it all the time is i love when people are so drunk they fall off their own couch um all right so i when brian b sent us this this very tasteful uh dm about a huge thing i missed and i'm so bummed. Please don't beat yourself up.

I won't entirely, but talk about wanting to be an expert and dropping the ball. Well, I blame the first five websites that came up that didn't mention this. They didn't. They didn't. And you would think it would. But yeah, maybe it is like specialized knowledge or something.

Maybe I just have to go to better websites first. Or you have to like i've been googling weird shit like like the weird the weird stuff not just like so-and-so murder i've been googling like deep down weird shit have you gone dark web i i wish i could i don't know how to go dark web but i really i don't want to i'm sure dustin knows let's not i'm sure dustin knows dark web look at how excited he looks he's doing the thing when we talk about something. He's like, I know about this.

I know about this. He's doing it. That kind of a... Wait, do you actually like murder stuff like this, Dustin? I think I'm more affected by it than you are. Oh. I'm not enthusiastic about it. It really makes my skin crawl.

Okay. So you don't get stoked and excited. You wouldn't be at a party with us and stick around our conversation. You'd walk away, probably. Oh my God, I never even thought to ask that. What a beautiful thing that you still come here and record this with us. Thanks, Dustin, and gave us a podcast to begin with. It turns out those headphones, he's just blasting Radiohead the whole time. he has no idea what we're saying radio i love it hi i'm una chaplin

and i'm the host of a new podcast called hollywood exiles it tells the story of how my grandfather charlie chaplin and many others were caught up in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Available now on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Interac. Interac has a range of tools to help your business grow.

Quickly and easily identify customers with Interac Verified. Pay your employees via bulk disbursement with Interac e-transfer for business or pay vendors with large sum payments up to $25,000. Plus your payments are safe with authentication and transaction encryption. Interac, we geek out on your business. Learn how at interact.ca slash for business. Terms and conditions apply. Okay, so here's the research part. And I hope I do this justice, but I'm not going to because I basically did only part of my homework. But essentially, this is it in a nutshell.

I'm not going to because I basically did only part of my homework. But essentially, this is it in a nutshell. I'm excited. The guy's name was Paul Bateson. And he was, in real life, a 38-year-old x-ray tech at NYU Med Center where they shot that scene. Oh, it's called an arteriogram is what she was getting in that scene, which is like the crazy machine that looks like a centrifuge, but the thing that spins you in all those different directions very upsetting and weird noises so um i guess when they probably when they went to like she look go location scout he was there they cast him because he already worked

there and knew how to work the machine legit already right and what i love is the link that brian b sent us the picture that comes up with this article. He looks so creepy. He looks like any dude in the 70s, like kind of forward. His hair is going forward, kind of sandy blonde goatee. But his eyes are like his eyes are drooping like they're melting. So like you were like, oh, what a great casting job that they hired this actor. And it's like, nope, it's he's really, this is what he looks like.

And that's why they hired him from this creepy movie. Yeah. And, and, and I don't know. I don't know if, I mean, that's a little woo woo to think that like his secret life was the reason that scene was so creepy.

I actually don't. Oh, this was before. So he went, these murders happened later in the seventies. So I think he was, he did that first okay oh no sorry the murder started in 1973 so that was so he was like on camera having a head murdered someone

i think so i should i have i would have to look up the movie came out in 73 and was i i'm the one that did this no you're good just pretend like you know what you're talking i'm pretty sure i know what i'm talking about um just own it yeah i think he murdered he must have murdered before directly i think he was doing it during and then ended up getting caught after because it was over a period of time so essentially what happened is um he uh so these people started going missing or there was like murder scene so the first one was a man named ronald cabo he lived in the west village and um he was stabbed to death on his sofa and then his apartment was set on fire he's 29 years old holy shit someone take a shot holy shit right because he's so young yeah and uh then four days later so they just think that's standard murder in new york city yeah in 1973 four days later, so they just think that's standard murder in New York City. Yeah.

In 1973. Four days later, a man named Donald McNiven, who was 40 years old, and a guy named John P.W. Beardsley, age 53, were both found in Donald's apartment on Varick Street. They both lived in the building, but they were in Donald's apartment. And again, the apartment had been set on fire and um beardsley was actually on the social register in new york and philadelphia so he was like some fancy he had been a harvard grad so um and they had no idea they just looked another like another bad stabbing murder i think beardsley was the one stabbed and mcnibbin mcnibbin was bludgeoned did they it was four days later four days later did they connect the two immediately i wonder not at all how do you not connect to stabbing and fires because well maybe they they might have like

noted it but he's in the 70s new york city i think there's several murders a day. And they're not sharing precinct to precinct murders. Right. Two weeks later, the body of Robin Barrero was found floating in the Hudson River. He had been missing for five weeks. Oh, my goodness. And he was still in a leather jacket. He was really decomposed, but he had a leather jacket on and then uh nine days after that um two gay men uh were murdered they i think they think they were roommates and their dog their pet poodle

yes um and from the stuff that was in the apartment at that murder is when they started putting together this This is, these are all people who have something to do with the leather community. Okay. I was going to say that that would make sense. Yeah. The leather jacket started and, and in that first guy, Robert Barrero,

or sorry, Ronald Cabo, the picture that they have up of him, he's really young and he's wearing a leather jacket. So I'm, I'm sure at the time it was like, Oh, that's just fashion choice,

whatever. But then person after person, they're probably finding different things and so by the end um uh they they got one of the jackets they got the tag and they found it was belonged to a store in the west village that was completely an snm store yeah snm clothing and supplies that sounds like a leather gay gay boys yes killing and so um that that's when they start to realize oh this is gay but once again it's just like the freeway murders in la when it's a gay community thing or any disenfranchised when it's prostitutes totally the cops are like who? No one cares and we're not going to get pressure from City Hall. I mean, I'm sure they could. If it's

someone in the community and everyone who's being killed is in that community, you talk to the rest of the people in that community and they're like, this guy's creepy and has gone home with all of these men. It's pretty simple. No, it's not. I mean, I'm sure it's not that simple. It's not that simple, but it's the thing

of what people decide to value right so people if the people in power don't value your life or your what you do in the community if they actually think you're gross or bad or judge you morally then they won't try to help you or they won't feel any you know burning desire to find your killer well they say i mean this is what they say. And I've totally, so they say you're living a high risk lifestyle already. Are you living a high risk lifestyle? Well, then are you a prostitute? Are you a drug addict?

Are you living, you know, in a gay community where you're around a lot of strange men a lot? Yeah. That's a high risk lifestyle. And they care less about you yeah because they think you can't living a high risk lifestyle means you kind of deserve it it's you brought it on yourself i'm not saying i'm not saying i think that but of course not right but it's an excuse i'm sure when cops see you know it's new york city in the 70s they saw probably 20 murders a day yeah so you're trying to somehow prioritize these things or you can't put your heart and soul into every single thing that comes across your desk. But I'm sure it got very easy to start marginalizing the deaths of these people or to not put things together. So anyway, they start, body parts start washing up on the shore of the Hudson River.

So there's like, apparently there's a gay cruising spot by the Hudson River piers. And that's where different body parts wrapped in garbage bags start showing up. And so they, putting all this together, they started calling the whole case the fag in the bag oh wow and so you can tell by that you know obviously there's not there's not a lot of sensitivity back then anyway but that's basically their attitude about all the stuff that's going on wow um so then a drag performer they said drag performance article but let's call her a drag queen. I bet she was a queen. Yeah.

And her name was Tony Lee. And she was strangled in her apartment in the West Village. And the Village Voice wrote a big article about it because she was famous. A lot of people knew her. And that's when they started to really put together. They knew for a fact that after hours and after like the normal bars, she would go to leather bars. knew for a fact that after hours and after like the normal bars she would go to leather bars and so that's when they you know were like oh we think we really we're on to something with this like leather theory yeah and then a man named addison verrill who was 36 and he was the film

critic for variety magazine he was found stabbed and bludgeoned uh stabbed and bludgeoned with a cast iron skillet in his apartment and so where they're all of them are in their own apartments meaning that this person was allowed to come in yes that's right that's what scares me the most is like yeah i know this person i i see him around my scene yeah it's pickup stuff it's like it's they're going to they're going to sex bars they're going to leather bars they're or just you know the 70s this is like the looking for mr goodbar totally where everybody was like it was post hippie shit where people are like yeah i'm sexually liberated it was pre pre-aids epidemic yeah where it was kind of like yeah everybody wants to have sex let's do this thing yeah there's a lot of trust um and especially with they were in this thing i was reading about is like the leather community,

there's lots of, you know, like leather daddies are like really big, muscly men. Yeah. So they don't think anyone's going to hurt them. Right. They're, you know, in charge. It's all, it's very overblown presentational masculinity. It's less of a risk than a woman going home with a man because a man can defend himself supposedly against another man.

Yeah. Exactly. And also they're like, that's part of the play, which I'm sure is the other thing. The cops were like, you know, this is a little something that got out of hand type of thing. Because it's what you're into anyway. Right. Blame, blame, blame. Right.

this journalist named Arthur Bell wrote up this big article after Addison Verrill, after the story came out that he was stabbed because the whole story about Addison Verrill was whitewashed. They didn't talk about him being gay.

It was very like a terrible murder, but they made it sound like a passing thing. Like a random murder. And Arthur Bell was like, there is a serious serial killer in our community and we have to start giving a shit and if nobody's going to give a shit about somebody that's famous like yeah like this is our chance or whatever so he wrote a big huge article

for the village voice about um you know that people needed to start like real police work needed to start going into this because people were very afraid and then he got a phone call no arthur bell this journalist he gets a phone call from a man who tells him i'm the guy that killed addison verrill and we were together i met him at a bar we went back to his apartment and while we were like after we had sex i had an epiphany and i realized this was not a reciprocal relationship he didn't love me he didn't want to be my boyfriend he didn't want to get married and um i wasn't getting anything i wanted and that's why i killed him and he tells him a bunch of specifics including that there was crisco all over the scene of the crime which was a very common lubricant that people used back then really but that had

not been released to the press in any way right and so uh arthur bell calls the cops and says i just got this phone call that was crazy i figured i should tell you and he starts telling them these details that no one else knows besides the cops. And the cops know this is the real guy. Holy crap. So he talked to the real killer, which is insane. So then Arthur gets a call from a guy named Richard Ryan, who said he also knew who the killer was because he had met him and talked to him and this guy had basically told him I think he said he met him in a a or something and he

basically had been trying to get sober and had admitted to him that like he had killed Addison Beryl Wow and so that's the only one he admitted to killing that's the only yes yeah so he killing. That's the only, yes. So he, this, so Arthur Bell takes that information, goes to the cops, gives them the name, and that's when they go and find Paul Bateson. And after they arrested Bateson, he was in Rikers, and apparently he was bragging to everybody in there that he not only killed Addison Farrell,

but he was killing, quote, was killing a bunch of gay guys just for fun because he was bored. Holy shit. Just for fun because he was bored. Yeah. He was trying to impress people. Go bowling, dude. He was cutting

people up, wrapping their parts in bags and dumping them in the river. They think he's actually responsible for way more murders but he would only he only he pled guilty to the addison verrill murder got 20 years and he got out in 2004 20 years from just for stabbing bludgeoning murder just because you got sad that someone didn't love you dude who oh you mean the murderer yeah oh yeah no yeah you got bummed that addison didn't love you, too. Who? Oh, you mean the murderer? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. You got bummed that Addison didn't love you. Well, but you know this. I mean, he's probably psychotic or, you know. Yeah, but it's so weird. Like, so an un... What's the word I'm looking of?

It's not like they got in a fight. He just killed him and he only gets 20 years. Yeah. That bothers me so much. Well, he's crazy. He clearly can't, you know. I know. What's he going to have another relationship?

I just hate... How's he going to deal with that that i hate that there are people like that out there yeah there's lots of them i don't um so but here's the interesting thing so william friedkin hears about this finds out that an extra in his movie was a serial killer goes to rikers and starts interviewing him and then decides and and um in the meantime else, I don't have the author's name, wrote a book called Cruising, which was about a serial killer in the 70s leather scene in New York City. And so Friedkin goes and talks to Paul Bateson and then decides he's going to direct the movie. No way. he's going to direct the movie. No way.

And so there's a movie called Cruising starring Al Pacino about a cop that's going undercover in the New York City leather scene to find a serial killer. Did you watch it? I have not seen it. I wonder if it's easy to find or if it's one of those. I think it is. Well, it's kind of infamous because it's incredibly, it's very homophobic. It's very bad. Yeah.

Like it basically says says all these people are deviants without morals and would kill you or kill anybody and there's a lot of bad stuff in it and when the gay community found out that they were shooting this movie in New York City it basically galvanized the

gay rights movement and they would go down and protest the shooting while they movement. And they would go down and like protest the shooting, the, while, while they were filming. So they would go down with whistles and they were, they were holding up like mirrors and making light go into the scenes or whatever. Um, that's great. But they ended up shooting it anyway. They got it done. And when it came out and everyone was like, this is the worst, you know, like up until that point, most gay men in film were like oh you're the kooky butler that has no real life or personality and they don't actually say you're

gay they just imply it you're just a joke right you're just a joke right now you're not just now you're when you're not a joke you're a murderer who deserve and who and a murder victim who kind of deserves it you're a victim exactly and you're everything about your life lacks all morals and you're just you're basically yeah it's how much more real would that whole story be if if the person the murderer it had nothing to do with the fact that he was gay he's just a fucking psychopathic murderer yes you know yeah but i mean yeah it's just the whole thing is is super awful there's a great movie called the celluloid closet and it's a documentary about um you know all like gay people in hollywood and um and all and the treatment of them and basically the way they've been presented and seen it's pretty fascinating and they talk about

cruising it's really good um i think that's it i i had something else, but... I'm sorry, my cats are attacking each other next to you. That's amazing. That's it. So, tell me his name again. I want to go... Paul Bateson is his name. I want to go back and see that scene where there's a fucking real-life serial killer. I know.

It's really good. It's a very, very creepy scene. Now, I should have watched... I just didn't have time to watch Cruising, but I also also know it's incredibly depressing there's no point in you watching that and i also read like reviews of it and apparently it doesn't it's not very cohesive and it was initially um rated x so they had to pull out all these scenes because there's all this like you know kind of intense leather yeah scene shit and they wouldn't the um mpaa or whatever they're called would not let william friedkin so basically when he had to edit it it came out way shorter and almost nonsensical oh my

god yeah man people always talk about wanting to go back in time which i totally fucking do but the 70s even the 70s the 80s the 90s were so racist and homophobic and fucking sexist would you really want to go back i mean that's the thing it's just this it's the more we talk about stuff like this it just becomes this like humanist thing to me where it's just like we have people have to i mean it's separate from mentally ill people who just like have to murder or whatever but it's a thing of like we have to look at each other as human beings yeah it's crazy that you know what i mean we always want to go oh those people yeah get what they deserve or it's like are you like, we have to look at each other as human beings. Yeah. It's crazy that, you know what I mean? We always want to go, oh, those people get what they deserve. It's like, are you fucking crazy?

Yeah. But if something happens to you, you don't deserve it. Yeah. Someone could say you and I could be in a category that someone, a lot of people out there would say that about for whatever reason, because we're women, because we live in Los Angeles, because, you know, whatever the reasons. Yeah. So people could say that about you so why would you say that

about other people right it's just i don't it's just lame it's just i don't know i don't know at the end of all these stories i'm always like oh it's lame i'm sorry i brought it up i'm sorry i brought it up it's a rough one it's called my favorite murder i'm sorry i brought it i'm sorry i brought it up i'm not yeah there's something there's something fascinating to the idea that that there's just like a person in a horror movie that's also living is is walking the walk i wonder if he in his i wonder if he in his twisted brain was like laughing at the irony of it too i know I know. I wonder. He's apparently a very bad alcoholic, too.

So he claims he didn't remember a lot. He's still alive and he's out. Oh, yeah. I think he's died since. He got out in 2004. He was living in upstate New York. What did he do after? Just chill and make breakfast? Did he make breakfast for himself every day?

Yeah, he just, you know what? He went down to the community center and he... That's so crazy. He loved to help with the spaghetti dinner every month. Isn't it crazy that you only have to go door to door and let your community know

if you're a pedophile but not if you're a convicted murderer? Serial killer. A convicted serial murderer. Oh, and he wasn't convicted for all of them, though. So yeah, just a killer. Just a killer.

So you don't have to let them know that unless you fondle children. Right. I want to know if someone next to me, next to her to me is, no, I don't. Do I? No. You know, there's pros and cons. There is pros and cons. It'd be hard to sleep.

And it'd be better as if just, if sentencing were a little more harsh. Just a little more harsh. Harsh for the people who will take you out. It's not that harsh isn't the word fitting is the word. Yeah, that's right. Oh Jesus. That's right.

Hey, what's your murder? Hey, okay. So hiding in plain sight. When you said that to me, I was like, Oh, okay.

I didn't really get it. No, I was excited about it. Cause I was like, I was like, so you mean like serial killers who have day jobs? Like I't really understand it so i was like yeah that's kind of what i meant okay yeah and you said yes so i was like what does that mean to me hiding in plain sight and to me that meant being and i'm fascinated by this and how disgusting it is uh you're hiding

in plain sight is being a child who kills someone because that's plain plain sight is being a child and this this one is kind of so i have two similar but very different child murderers that i've always thought about because they're so fucked up and the first one is uh the murderer is josh phillips okay um and he killed maddie clifton. So do you know this one? No. Yeah. This one is a kind of well-known one, but I just, it's interesting because recently some new information came out about it. Um, so basically in this kid, Josh Phillips was born in 1984. Um, he's from Jacksonville, Florida. And in, um, July, 1999, he was convicted of murderinging his eight-year-old neighbor, Maddie Clifton. He murdered her in November 98.

He was 14 years old and she was nine years old. And what happened was Maddie disappeared and the whole community started looking for her and couldn't find her. the search ended a week after the disappearance when Josh Phillips' mother went to clean up Josh's room and thought his waterbed was leaking, which A, don't get your kid a waterbed. B, it's not leaking. You're not like a bachelor. What is that? Yeah, way to give your kid fucking back problems and send them to jail at the same time. Because what's more comfortable, the water bed or the jail mattress?

I don't know. It's always the mother's fault. It's Melissa. You need to get this together. Upon further examination, she discovered that it was Maddie's body hidden inside, hidden like underneath the bed. And she and fucking kudos to her ran outside across the street. There was a police and was like, hey, this kid, you know, like some parents, I don't know if they would do that immediately or they would wait until he came home and talk.

I'm like, what the fuck? And then call the police. She was like, get the fuck, you know, freaked out. Oh, that is amazing. So Josh was arrested at school that day and he was held in maximum security. So here's what's so fucked up about it. Uh, I,

he was, as a 14 year old, he was tried as an adult and convicted to, uh, and sentenced to life without the possibility of ability of parole. Like adult killers who kill more people in a more fucked up way and sexually assault them are not tried are not convicted or are not given such a harsh sentence right um and okay so according to josh what

happened was that maddie came next door to play with him um and despite the fact that josh wasn't allowed to have people over when his parents weren't home he let her in anyways the two were playing according to him the two were playing baseball outside maddie threw the ball or josh threw the ball and um it's it struck maddie in the in the eye causing her to start bleeding and she started to scream and josh freaks out because his father is abusive and has a temper and if he finds out that maddie's there the fact that she's screaming and got hurt at his house, he's going to be in a shit ton of trouble, including being abused. So he takes her to his room. I don't know if I should even like go into the details because I know people who are listening have children and I don't want to. Well, if you have children and you are listening to a murder podcast, but you're going to get sensitive.

Yeah. Then I would go forward uh one minute and 30 seconds thank you basically basically she died from stabbing uh and strangulation and clubbing with a baseball bat overkill took her pants off but didn't but she wasn't um molested which is odd also i was reading something on reddit that said that she didn't have any he said he dragged her inside the house but there wasn't any dirt or sticks or anything on her on her body on her clothes which would indicate that that had happened so we don't really know for sure and that's a really, that's, I mean, he tries to get off easy by saying he hit her in the head,

but then he goes on to over and tells how he killed her. So it's not like he was, if he was lying about one of them, why wouldn't he lie about both of them? Yes. So he is, he's never going to be free. She was nude from the waist down,

but it didn't seem. And so the murder appears to have been motivated by his fear of his abusive father. It's just so fucked up. Do they know that's true? Or that'd be another thing he could have been making? Yeah, we don't know that either. Or even that maybe the, maybe the, because I watched a couple episodes of, of, you know, true crime shows where the parents get interviewed and maybe that was something that they made up even to say like, Oh no, the father was abusive and he was scared of him. Like, let's give him an out. So we don't know if that was true or not. Well, the thing, I think you're right. Him, especially the stabbing part.

Yeah. His stabbing is such a furious and personal thing. He also choked her for 15 minutes. Oh yeah. That is a lot. And it it's it's very hard to choke someone to death i think we all if you're into true crime you know this it takes a lot longer and a lot more force than and that's when you're an adult that's when you're an adult but he's also she's also eight or nine so she's probably a little more fragile she's i mean

the thing that fucks me up about this is that she's this little tomboy girl and she reminds me of me as a kid who wanted to hang out with the older boys and play with them and be one of the guys there's a video there's a home video he made that the boy made of this little girl maddie and her sister playing with their new puppy so like she trusted this kid next door she wanted to come over and was bugging him to play with her. And as a 14 year old... Did he have like a history of anything? Not mental stuff or anything?

No mental stuff. The dad died in a car accident eventually. Okay, so in 2012 recently, the Supreme Court ruled that automatic life without parole sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional. And that ruling entitles Phillips to a resentencing hearing. Also, he's super hot now. Whatever.

That's just beside the point. But let's just put it out there. Let's just let everyone know that. Let's just get those people on Tinder aware. Yeah. Let's just let everyone know that. Let's just get those people on Tinder aware. Yeah.

So, and there's not a ton of conversation about this murder, like on Reddit or anything like that. So I just thought it was interesting. I do think it's, I, I agree that you shouldn't, that life without parole for a 14 year old is insane. Even though I get it. He, I mean that stabbing a little girl to death and strangling something happened to that boy. Yes. Something very bad happened to that boy, whether it's a psychotic break, whether it was something

to, he was terribly abused. There was an interesting conversation in Reddit in like the one little bit I was able to find where this commenter was saying, you know, when I was a kid, my dad was abusive and all you wanted to do was not get in trouble. You didn't think about what would happen in the future if you got all you wanted to do is not get in trouble. That you didn't think about what would happen in the future. If you got caught hiding, whatever it was that you were in trouble, getting in trouble meant the whole family would be terrorized. So you do whatever you can to not get in trouble that moment. And it kind of made sense in a way that was like,

she's not dying from this way. She's not dying. I need to kill her at this point and get it over with because I'm going to get in trouble for having had someone over, which is, you know, maybe he was a little, maybe he was developmentally delayed, but 14 seems too old to think that killing someone was an okay solution to that. Yes, for sure. Also, I feel like hitting someone in the head and being

afraid and this is this is just theory obviously he would just hit her in the head a bunch more times right why not just smack her in the head with a baseball bat this the other part just gets so violent up close crazy bloody i mean like yeah almost like wanting to see what happened what happens you know well the pants down thing is not good the pants down thing is a very a very it's sexual no matter what yeah so even if you didn't touch her it's sexual yes and stabbing is sexual in that you know in the psychosexual way. Yeah, totally. Strangling too, I mean. Yeah. Oh, man.

I mean, and when you strangle someone, you, for the most part, have to look at them in the face. Yeah. If you can fucking do that, you got some major issues beyond you being scared you're going to get a belt whipping from your dad. Yeah, yeah. And also, I mean, people always say this, but I'll just say it anyway there's you can

hear the chorus of people who were abused by terrible parents who are like i would never kill anybody right so it's not a plus b like i think yeah that that psychiatric element is absolutely has to be there yeah because here's the other thing too you're right a mother who would immediately run across the street like obviously it's insane finding a dead body under your son's bed yeah but the she knew yeah knew he did it like it wasn't i don't know she didn't go let's let the cops tell us what happened she went you have to go get my son her first her first thought was for the girl the little girl and her and her family who was waiting to find where she was and not for her kid or or for the for the dad who you know because if you find the body

someone in the house did it you might not know it's your son right her first thought was that i found this the girl yeah she's clearly the victim not not my son my son. That's amazing. Yeah. That's, that's fucked up. There's another one too, but maybe I don't need to get into it. Do it, do it. It's just Eric Smith.

This, the red, the like little, the redhead kid. He killed his parents? No. Okay. So Eric Smith,

born 1980. Um, he murdered four year old Derek Roby on August 2nd, 1993. This is in Steuben County, New York. So Eric, unlike Josh, had been diagnosed by a defense psychiatrist with intermittent explosive disorder. It's a mental disorder causing individuals to act out violently and unpredictably. He was a loner.

He was tormented by bullies his you know he he was like a nerdy redhead he you look at him as a kid in court especially there are these videos of him in court and he's just this he you can tell he's troubled just by looking at him you can tell he's been bullied you can tell he didn't like himself and he basically said he took he took his anger out on on this little kid this sweet little derrick robey who was riding his bike to summer camp and let's see eric was riding his bike to summer camp and four-year-old derrick was walking alone to the same camp he saw they saw each other he lured him into the nearby woods and then smith like overkilled the shit out of him like so this was on purpose like you know it's it's such a weird

thing it's like well these two different things where this kid said that he had to do it because he hit her in the head and his dad was going to find out this kid just straight up wanted to murder someone yeah and i remember hearing this thing about in of the, one of the many fucking true crime tales I watched that he, that, that, uh, Eric took a banana out of his lunch and smashed it into the little kid's face. And later that night, the aunt or someone was babysitting him and got a banana out and the kid freaked out. And I think that's how they figured out who it was.

The kid freaked out over the banana. and I think that's how they figured out who it was. The kid freaked out over the banana. So basically, Smith said that he'd been bullied by older children in high school and also by his father and sister and he confessed that he took his rage out on Roby but was worried that Roby would tell

so he killed him. It's very odd. How old was he when he did it? So this kid was, Eric was, I think he was 14 as well. Oh, wow. I just remember looking at pictures of him. Oh, you know why? Because when I was doing those two boys that killed their dad, his picture came up all the time. And he looks so young. He looks looks he's in a blazer he doesn't look 13 he looks like he could be he looks like

he's not 11 or 12 yeah nine and he's got those ears that stick out big old ears and if you look at him now too because there's some interviews with there's some jailhouse interviews with him now or he like he's just so apologetic to the family he says i wish i could take the kids place like he's very very remorseful about it but even now he looks he looks like um remember the redheaded guy in the burbs who lived who was one of the haunted lived in the house he looks like him now it's just like he doesn't look which is such i shouldn't judge someone by the way they look, but you know, well, I mean,

that's why people get bullied if you look different. Yeah, definitely. It's, well, so he's been apologizing through in prison. This other kid, Josh,

um, he has since gone on to, he got his, he got a degree in parent and being a paralegal. And he's been working as a paralegal, helping other inmates with their appeals. So both of these people have like have gone on

to try to make amends for their murder. Do they deserve to be in prison forever? And I'm not asking like they don't. I fucking don't know. Right. It really brings, well it makes you come way off the like let them all fry right which is i i like to feel that way just because it's very comfortable

and like a solution but it's the same reason that i don't i still can't give anyone a definite answer about the death penalty right i just couldn't give anyone an answer right because i don't fucking know there's so many different circumstances i know it's true it's it's so it's much more complex than one thing or the other it's and it's case by case but i mean yeah it's and it's difficult because i understand people saying like it's wrong to kill and revenge is wrong and like one wrong doesn't make a right don't make it right i agree i agree with all of it but then you hear a story about a dad murdering his child's molester and you're like yeah good 100 yeah or like you hear about repeat molesters yeah um that kind of thing those priests

that have molested 600 children yeah kill them immediately i mean i honestly feel that way it's just like what good are you you clearly don't this is what you're going to do. Yeah. And what life you have ruined 600 lives, if not more. But then you hear, well, he was molested when he was a kid constantly. And maybe if his molester had just been taken out with a single bullet. I mean,

it's so calm. This is why we have this podcast is because if we could talk about this for hours and hours, which is what we're going to do. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so rough.

Also, that kid, and I mean, I've never had explosive anger, but I understand like getting in, especially if you do drugs. Like when I used to be on speed, I took diet pills for a long time, which yes, I lost 30 pounds in one month. 30 pounds in one month? Yes. in one month yes I had friends who were like are you okay yeah I'm talking and smoking right not breathing but you do have that thing where there's a the weirdest feeling that's so separate when you have like a rage explosion or like a like when you get onto that track and you can't get back off it's like a panic when you have

a panic attack exactly it's like your brain is having a reaction separate from you and to be a child trapped inside that i mean well then i under i kind of can't help but understand taking it out on someone else because i was bullied as a kid but i was a little and my brother and sister were you know fucked with me not abusive but as older siblings will do and i'm the youngest so i can't take it out on anyone else so i just hurt animals no i'm just kidding would not be hilarious so i just hurt my cat no my god um but yeah you you when my mom would be a bitch i would get so fucking pissed it's a thing of punching a wall because there's nothing else to punch yeah yes it's and this kid clearly wasn't taught self-control if he was abused by his dad and his sister he he was taught that that violence against someone smaller than you is okay yes

that's exactly right that's almost like a larger almost like he i know he didn't do this in any way consciously it's symbolic yeah it's him going here's what we do right here's what we do and here's what happens to me yeah it's gonna go this far the idea of a father and sister being bullied and abusive within a family it's disgusting to me like that's what a terrible, sad life that kid had. I completely see it. You know, I think about like the things we, I, I was bullied, but I've said so many shitty things to kids, like the nerdy kids when I was younger. And I think about them all the time and what their home lives were like, and that I contributed

to their fucking, their awful lives. And it, it disgusts me. I mean, that's the thing too. I feel like when you're kids, you do these things because you don't have, uh, you, you don't have the,

a mature sense of where you belong in the world, what other people's lives are like. I remember being like, honestly being like in fifth grade and asking my teacher who is a friend of our family and she would eat dinner at home sometime. And I asked her one night, like there's a girl in my class and I was like why is Sarah's face always dirty and she was like because she doesn't have anybody to wash it for her and I it blew my mind I was like I assumed every single other kid had the exact same life totally yeah and i mean like in my my existence

like i was loudly making fun of other kids because i was happy that i wasn't the kid at that moment getting made fun of exactly right and because i wanted to show everyone that i was part of the group too that i could make fun of this person too because i was getting made fun of and it's a hundred percent not okay but i do it to this day of like the quickest way to bond with someone is to figure out who you both hate. Oh, for sure. And that's just human nature. That's that thing of like, yeah, you deflect.

I'm not the bad one. Isn't that person the bad one? Yeah. I mean, that's, it's how we do it. And it takes a lot of strength and a lot of like, it's very difficult to have like with human interaction if you've gotten dealt a shitty hand every time to still be like i'm gonna handle this great to be kind when you're 12 yeah i mean like you can't do it we're 31 and it's hard enough to i wish i was 31 girl yeah you are karen's 31 everyone on this podcast yeah we could be whatever um drink shots uh what was i gonna say i don't remember let's let's not have kids ever i mean

terrible people that's the other thing is like that um i remember saying so the last time i was home i said something bitchy to my niece, who I adore and we get along great, but she was just doing something kind of jerky. And then I was like, just go do it or whatever I said. And then she's like, all right. And instead of like having a sensitive reaction, she's learned because she also is the daughter of an old, you know, her, she's an only child.

My sister is a single mother. Yeah. And so she's kind of learned to roll with punches for a nine-year-old so much better where I was like, oh, man, because I felt guilty the second it came out of my mouth. Yeah. And I was like, if I had like a favorite aunt that like bitched at me, like snagged at me, it would have hurt my feelings. But she was kind of like, whatever, dude, and walked away.

She's like more of an adult because she's a single her mother's single mother and she's a kid and she doesn't have siblings so she acts your sister probably treats her more like an adult than a kid i think she's that and she's very close with her two cousins who are like two and four years older than her so she's like she's kind of like toughened up a little bit but it's that's the other thing is when you, everybody gets picked on in some way, you learn that picking on people is a good way to up your own status. And there's no other, when you're young like that, you,

there aren't options unless you go to some amazing progressive school that teaches you about stuff like that, which it doesn't work. It's like, no, somebody is going to get thrown in that garbage can. And the way to make it not you is to make sure you're not. But then you go home at night and your parents are abusive, too.

Like, Vince always gets sad when he sees kids because he remembers how you just feel like this is going to go on forever. Yeah. You're never going to have control over your life. You're never going to, you know, be able to make decisions on your own. It feels on forever. Yeah. Being, you're never going to have control over your life. You're never gonna, you know, be able to make decisions on your own. It feels fucking infinite. Yeah, for sure.

Well, and like school politics also feels like, Oh, this is my world. These, this bully is always going to be in my life. Yeah. This girl's always going to be prettier than me.

Totally. It's all that kind of stuff that you, it's just the way like a teen brain works. It turns out that we ended up being the coolest ones out there. Who'd have thunk? Here's how you be the coolest ones. Yeah. For a really long time.

You're so not the coolest. You're severely not the coolest one. The least coolest one usually becomes either a murderer or the coolest one. Yes. Pick one. That's right. It's your choice. It is a choice.

It is a choice. It's a path. You go down. That's, that It's your choice. It is a choice. It is a choice. It's a path you go down. I mean, that's what this whole thing comes back around to is it is a choice. And these two boys chose to kill someone in the moment. But. But. I know. Here's the psych.

I'm just going to play devil's advocate psychiatrist. It's like if you have explosive disorder, you do not have a choice. Yeah. It's like that thing where when I get nervous and my mouth starts talking, then'm like oh no i'm talking it's not a choice what am i saying and we have so many um outlets now psychiatry and psychology and intense therapy to to help control it but you just but would you feel comfortable if that person was out in society now? Probably not. Like, not in my town.

Yeah. I would just be, it's that thing where, like, you know, as a parent, you'd just be so paranoid. Totally. Totally. All right. Well, that's my favorite murder. Can I pick next week's favorite topic, I mean? Yeah. Message received, Georgia.

That was all your fault, Karen, that I got so dark and deep. So let's, do you want to read a hometown murder? I pick next week. So can I? It's like butterflies, kittens, something nice. Butterfly murders? Oh, the butterfly murders of the Philippines, yes. We absolutely can do that one.

Do you want to read, let's see, why don't we do this? So you want to read let's see why don't we do this so you want to read a hometown murder that we got emailed you can email us at myfavoritemurder at gmail your hometown murder we'll read one every fucking week even though we get so many it's incredible I love you guys and then maybe let's do a quick separate episode

of other people's favorite on the Facebook page I said what's your hidden in plain sight murder and I can read a few of those and maybe we can read one or two hometown murders. So we'll have a mini episode that'll come out maybe a couple of days after the regular one comes out. Great. Is that cool? I love it. Okay. So why don't you read, read me a hometown murder, please. Okay, cool. This is also another, now I'm, I'm getting obsessed with followup. I'm getting obsessed with like thoroughness and research and but but i really do genuinely love it so this is a bit of a follow-up

but there's much more to it okay and it's from lily k will will say yes uh hi karen and georgia can't believe how much you sound like my friend julie and i when we're together and really get going um i've been obsessed with true crime for so long that I became a forensic psychologist. You are a fucking badass, Lily. Why not do what you love? There's nothing else in the entire world I'd rather do. And yes, you can intern for me sometime. Yes.

Way to go. I make my husband watch all the true crime shows. And now when he gets sick, he's convinced I'm poisoned. Like those deadly women of centuries past. I love it. Anyway, I just found your podcast and your call for hometown crime. Then I saw you did mine in your second episode. Bummer.

But I decided not to listen to it yet and pretend you didn't do it. So I can tell you about it. Love it. Paul Bernardo was mine. And like I mentioned, it affected me so much that I became a forensic psychologist. Wow. When I was in high school in Toronto, Toronto, the Scarborough suburb of Toronto, rapes were going on. It was terrifying.

The bus company started letting women out at any point along the route at night, not just at stops. So we wouldn't have to walk far from the stop to home. Oh, wow. Our regular gym classes were canceled, and we got a specialist in to teach us self-defense. Holy shit. Also, there was a guy at my high school who looked more like the sketch of the Scarborough Rapist than Paul ever did,

and he said he was thinking of changing his hair when the sketch came out, but he was afraid that that would actually make him look more guilty. Yeah, I would. And then she put in parentheses, it wasn't him, by the way. Okay, so just as the rapes started slowing down, we heard about the two girls. We heard about two girls go missing on the other side of Toronto. Did you know Leslie Mahaffey was actually locked out of her house

the night that she met paul bernardo horrible she was a rebellious teen and her mom picked that night to do some tough love on her when she broke curfew and locked her out and her mom locked her out can i just say my mom tough love is a like was a thing and my mom fucking did it and it was the worst in the 80s yeah kids parents please don't do tough love on your kids it doesn't work yeah that's right oh sorry go on no that's okay it's oh my god so she locked her kid out mother locked her out of the house how much does that woman hate herself now oh i can't imagine i mean that is if she's even still alive no that is for sure talk about the worst thing in the world. Totally. A child dying and then you, oh my God, that's a nightmare. Sorry.

And then Kristen French was also portrayed as the good girl and Leslie as the more rebellious. And Tammy, Carla's sister, was basically forgotten. I know every single detail about this case, but in case you don't want to hear it, I'll get to some good anecdotes. This was going on throughout my entire high school life, the rapes, the murders. Then my last year of high school, they found out it was Paul and Carla. So, of course, I went to the trial. I actually had this college boyfriend I wasn't that into, and I made him go with me. Poor guy.

He was really upset about being there, but I loved it. Paul, oh, it says Paul was so incredibly in court. I wonder what she meant. When they took his handcuffs off, he wouldn't just turn his wrists to have them removed. He would turn his entire body. It was as if he was trying to look every person in the gallery in the army. It was creepy. And then in college, a girl in my dorm started dating a guy named sam

who looked like paul so whenever i had a couple drinks in me i'd call him paul i love this chick i also wrote all my psych papers in college on paul bernardo or carla abnormal psych class personality class i wanted to know what made them tick and then she's a second one but it's super long yeah what a terrifying fucking thing to go through high school i mean it took up their whole world i mean that was crazy and then to find out that a woman is involved i don't know why like that's a different level because you would see a couple and you'd think i'm safe it's the only ultimate lure. We've talked about that. Yeah. Episode two, was it? I think so.

But that's the reason I love that she gave all those details because that was the one where I wasn't, I was a little fuzzy on my details in that one. Well, it's shit that you wouldn't know about. It's the same thing about watching The Simpsons is that it's information that, you know, you watch the whole trial, but you could not have known what it was like to be on the jury or what it was like in Marsha Clark's office when her boss was pissed about the glove and that it was their idea to have him try the glove on.

Yeah. Oh, it's just that like being I love that she loved it so much. She went to trial. Yeah, that's amazing. I can't tell you how like I've been asking people their hometown murders for years when i'm at parties and drinking too much and calling people by the murderer's names and this is like just feeding this is feeding me on a level that i can't even handle you can really put away that voice in your head that says you're weird in any way yeah it's just simply not weird because we have an inbox full of hometown murders to i hope we haven't gotten any like yeah it's incredible any what

sorry i don't know like i wouldn't like you said someone asked us to be on their podcast and our gmail and i wouldn't see it because it's just buried underneath that is there's at least one person but i think there might be more than we need we need to give them a different email address yeah um i love it i did uh so i wrote a thing on facebook real quick about and i said um that like a cocktail trivia like information that i love so mine was that um that everyone knows that all serial killers don't have three names as everyone thinks they do like john wayne gacy it's that john they use their middle names so that normal people named John Gacy don't people don't think that they're the you know they don't look them up in the fucking

um yellow pages and say John Gacy is that you know it's John kill them at their house Wayne Gacy right so I asked people they're like cocktail trivia murder facts and this person can I read a couple please that DNA was um the DNA evidence was first used to convict a killer in england in the 80s the killer was named colin pitchfork and he had killed two girls wow which is amazing but serial killers are apparently obsessive masturbators since they can't attain normal sexual relationships most women who kill when using a weapon will use a knife because it's more personal yeah many killers start out as peeping toms let's see um that is really creepy because peeping toms culturally have always been treated very lightly

like oh this kook up in the tree yeah oh he likes that he wants to look at cute girls yeah it's like that you know animal house i've got my yeah binoculars and i'm looking into this right that's murdery. You're on your path to murder. Totally. One more. Eileen Wernos' last words were, yes, I would just like to say I'm sailing with the rock and I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus. June 6th, like the movie, big mothership and I'll be back.

I'll be back. She was fucking crazy. Someone replied and said, which is weird because that was also my wedding vows. This is why I love the fucking Facebook groups so much. Yes, the best. Oh my God. Okay. So everyone's. I'll be sailing with The Rock.

Did she mean The Wrestler? I think so. No, the movie The Rock. Oh. I think. Fuck. I didn't know about that eileen eileen honey girl sweetheart girl angel um you can so we're at my fave murder on twitter yes and you can email us at my favorite

murder at gmail and please follow uh go to our group on facebook my favorite murder it's private so you can just like talk all the shit you want. But also those things people are making. Did you see the girl on Twitter? Those making fake books? No, we know. I'll tell you what. Okay.

Real quick. Someone's making someone on the Facebook group made a, uh, a murder bingo. I saw that. Yeah. And someone else made me this, made this beautiful,

um, a quote that I said, I think last week it said uh i don't want i don't want any survivors and it's like in the background of beautiful flowers and stuff i saw that i want them to keep doing that and of course it looks like an inspirational quote but it's you saying i don't want to see any survivors yeah and then of course the um the the drinking game which is like everyone just keeps adding like when they say this when they do that when they say this it's like the

best i said i mean that feeds right into my humongous deep ego need no totally people aren't listening to us it's a it's a girl on twitter named thin izzy and she's doing these she keeps writing read my new book And this is don't burp. The Robert Durst story is just stuff we've said about people and she's making it into a book. I love her. Or maybe I think it's things we've said. He definitely killed like eight people.

I was a teenage Robert Durst and it's like Robert Durst when he was like in his early twenties. And it just, they look like book covers. What a gem. Well done thin Izzy. Oh, I love this one.

The staircase part two oh my god it's just an owl and then it's he was gay in the south is one quote and a microscopic owl feathers on the other side oh my god and it's like a beautiful photo of an owl yeah that's incredible people are the best it's very exciting i think this is this what we're doing here is just trying to make everyone know that there are there are a lot of murders but there are a lot more funny people and here's the other thing i remember when everybody started going batshit crazy about i know i've already talked shit about this on this podcast but sex in the city in the in the uh whenever it was late 90s early 2000s and i was like has the world gone insane who gives one

fuck about that stupid show but it was like i'm a'm a Miranda. I'm going to drink a Cazapel and whatever. And I was just sitting there like, I guess I'm just a total weirdo and a total outsider and totally alone. You'll never connect with people on a normal because they like shit like sex in the city. Yes. And just, and so things like this, it just, my heart grows 10 sizes every time I hear anything about it. Cause it's like, we have our people.

We just didn't know they were out there. Well, the most fun is that we're the most popular ones out of the entire group of people because we're the host of this podcast. What? Oh, you mean of everybody? Yeah. Cause we started going back to feeding our ego.

And it's nice that we're the, we're the bot, like we're the heads. I have to say. Yeah. So we're one quick conversation where you were like, we should do a podcast. I was like,

okay. And then here's why I love Georgia hard star. Cause then she actually does. I wish like, yeah over one quick conversation where you were like we should do a podcast i was like okay and then here's why i love georgia hardstark because then she actually does it i wish like yeah i would it would take me four years to actually really make a plan or be like no let's actually do it i i'd love to go to little little tiny georgia and say someday you're going to talk about murder and people are going to listen to you she would have been like yes that's fucking awesome georgia stop cursing you're just a tiny little thing uh yay find us on places and thanks for listening we love you stay sexy yeah