My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - MFM Minisode 7

Episode Date: September 27, 2016

Hey! Didn’t see you there. It’s a My Favorite Murder minisode. This week Karen and Georgia read your hometown murders that include the spooky 'Bermuda Triangle Of Murder’ in the Wisconsin town of Kenosha, House Hunters: Quadruple Homicide Edition, a prep school Slender Man murder, and more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is exactly right. We at Wondery live, breathe, and downright obsess over true crime. And now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C, on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music. Exhibit C, it's truly criminal. Hey Karen. Oh, hello.

I didn't see you there. I was putting my mic up in kind of a rock and roll. I know you're touching it and it really like, as if you're like touching the face of a lover with your hands. This mic is my lover. I'm going to kiss you. Can I kiss you? Can I kiss you?

Can I kiss you? I'm just a girl standing in front of her mic, trying to tell my mic that I love it. How's it going? Hey, good. Welcome to everyone to my favorite murder mini show. What do you mean? You just got over talking like this a little bit. I realized that I'm talking to everyone.

Oh, you had a little self-conscious? Probably. I think, yeah, my normal voice and my like talky voice are not the same thing. Yeah. Yes. I find when I listen back to these episodes, my self-loathing is only growing exponentially and so I have decided to try to stop doing that. Hating yourself or listening?

Yeah. It's just too much. I don't need to listen to my own recorded voice bullshitting for hours at a time. Well, you're not bullshitting, but I also do think as two people who have a lot of self-criticism and over, you know, what's the thing? Hyper-critical? Yeah. That we probably both, even though every time I listen, I'm like, we're fucking great.

Definitely. I'm left with a fun feeling at the end, but I do spend a lot of time going, like last episode of the full episode, I cleared my throat 15 times in a row, like a person with an obsessive compulsive disorder, so much so that it scared me while I was listening to it. That you had something wrong with your throat or that you... Or brain, like whatever it is, that there's something wrong. Like a tick.

Yes. Exactly. Like a weird math teacher. And I just, the whole idea of that was set me off for the week. Let's stop listening. Let's stop recording. No. Yeah.

Let's stop listening. So that was actually me projecting onto you, because I was like, why are you doing your voice like that? But really, that's me trying to talk about my own self-consciousness. And like noticing things and thinking about them too much. Yes. And turning up the X-ray vision where it's just like, you know, leave it alone. We're not listening anymore.

Who gives a shit? I mean, you can give a shit, but you're wrong. But like a normal... About yourself. Give a shit knowing that you are wrong and flawed. Probably more okay than you think. Yeah. And maybe just a little bit self-obsessed.

And who gives a shit? Is that... I mean it that way. No, we really are. And it's fine. Okay. Should we do this thing? Yeah.

Let's read some hometown murders. Yeah, we're in LA. This is what you're supposed to be like here. So this is a minisode. You guys send us all your hometown murders, which we love to my favorite murder at Gmail. And this is, we started doing mini episodes so we can just read them to you. So that you someday will hear your own back at you. Yeah.

Karen, you want to go first? Sure. Okay. Because I really like this one because the subject line is Kenosha's Bermuda Triangle of Murder. Ooh. Kenosha, Wisconsin. I have a friend, my friend Bradford lives somewhere near there or grew up somewhere

near there. Didn't even know it was a place. What's that? Didn't even know it was a place. Yeah. Wisconsin. So listen to this. Oh, in parenthesis, this thing kicks off with a parenthetical that says, hi, please

call me Nick. If you read aloud, do not use last name, which is a great reminder, Nick, because I would have gone straight into all of your details. I'm new to the podcast. My cousin told me about it and I'm totally hooked. I live in Wisconsin and I always felt super weird about being fascinated by Jeffrey Dahmer. Now I know. I'm a murderer.

No. Yay. That's nice. I live in Wisconsin and I was told the story about this awful area in town. Kenosha's Murder Alley is an unpaved strip of land running south from 64th Street between 20th and 21st Avenues, two blocks away the downtown business district, bustles with activity, but residents along the alley live with daily apprehension that is more akin to an excursion through the Twilight Zone.

There's something strange out there in that alley. A coroner, Thomas Dorff, told the press in February 1981, sort of a Bermuda Triangle of Murder, I'd say. Holy shit. What seems to be going on is unexplainable. This is all the quote. Lieutenant Rudy Blotz, that's the best name I've ever heard, Rudy Blotz, of the Kenosha Police Department was equally direct, branding the alley a jinx or something.

The happenings, quote, unquote, include a string of seven grisly homicides between 1967 and 1981. Oh, my God. They're savagery, baffling locals who remark on Kenosha's relative freedom from violent crime. Three of these cases have been solved unrelated to one another. Oh, my God. They're all unrelated.

Three of them have been unrelated, but the grim geographical coincidence has authorities shaking their heads in confusion. The first alley murder occurred on February 9, 1967, when 17-year-old Mary Caldenberg left her home on 64th Street to purchase a bottle of pop from the corner drugstore. Four days later, officers discovered her corpse in the back of a 1948 hearse parked at the city auto pound a mile from her house, fully clothed except for her shoes, which were removed and placed near the body. Mary had been stabbed 12 times in the neck, chest, forehead, and back.

The case remains unsolved. 11 years later, on January 30th, 1978, Gerald Burnett, 52, was found sprawled in a snowbank near his home at the mouth of the alley. He had been beaten to death with a tire iron, killed in what police described as a robbery. But Stephen Goss has been convicted and imprisoned for the crime. On May 27th, 1979, 80-year-old Herman Bosman was found beaten to death in his burning home on the alley's east side. Authorities speculate that the fire was set to destroy evidence of the murder which remains

unsolved at this writing. A month later, on June 23rd, Alice Alsner, age 18, was unearthed in a rose garden adjoining the alley. A jury convicted the property owner, 23-year-old Thomas Holt, of raping the victim and strangling her with her own brazier. Holt was sentenced to die. On January 26th, 1981, news of a triple murder rocked the neighborhood's fragile peace. Victims Alice Eaton, John Amon, and Raphael Petrucci were found dead in Eaton's home adjoining

the alley. Her grandson, Robert McRoberts, was arrested and charged with the slaying. Since fiction, mere coincidence, whichever local officers and residents along the alley keep their personal opinions to themselves agreeing only that, quote, there's something going on out there. Keep up the podcast. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered.

Nick. Wow. I want to see a picture of Alice. Fascinating. That's so bad. That's crazy. That's so crazy. And you know it's bad news when the cop in the corner is like, we don't know.

It's crazy. It's a mystery. Don't know. It's the Twilight Zone. Yeah. That's freaky. It's like, it's explainable. No.

Yes. They're like, nobody panic. They're just like, we don't fucking know what's going on. Yeah. That's, that's a good one. That's good. That's good news. What do you got?

Thank you for sending that. Nick. Yes, Nick. Well done. Okay. Mine is called, I wanted to buy this house and tell, dot, dot, dot, disclosure quadruple homicide. Oh, fuck.

Okay. This is from Charlene. Okay. I'm just going to jump right into it. I first heard of my hometown murder a few years ago when I was house hunting. The town is Gaston, Oregon, no bigger than 600 people. And just on the outskirts of this town is a small community called Laurelwood. This is where the house I was interested in was and where I later found out a quadruple

murder took place. The parents, my parents told me the story and no, I did not buy the house. It was 1977. My parents were in their teenage years. My dad worked at the local gas station where one day dozens of bikers came in to fill up. They were members of the Hell's Angels of California. I've heard of them. A week or so later, a quadruple murder took place in Laurelwood.

The victims were a young mother, Margo Compton, her two six-year-old twin girls and a family friend, Gary Sessler. Gary Sessler's fiance was the first to happen upon the scene. She found her fiance still alive, laying on the ground, holding the telephone, gurgling his own blood. Oh, God. He died shortly after she found him and she left to go get help. The police arrived and they found Gary Sessler, Margo Compton, and her twins all dead from

gunshot wounds. The twins were wearing matching striped swimsuits and clutching matching teddywears, lying face down. They had each been shot behind the ears. Why? It was later found out that Margo Compton had moved into this small town from the California Bay area to escape her life of working in a brothel run by the Hell's Angels. She had recently testified against a Hell's Angel member for crimes involving prostitution

rings. That's not good. That Hell's Angels member, Otis Buck Garrett, was convicted in well-in-jail. He hired a hitman named Robert Bug-Eye Bob McClure to find and kill Margo. Bug-Eye Bob came for her. Looks like it. If the Hell's Angels were successful, Bug-Eye Bob would be initiated into Hell's Angels. Do you want to kill two children or do you want to be in Hell's Angels?

I need friends and I love motorcycles, so yeah, I guess I'll kill two children. Just run the CD of the month club. Just grow your beard and listen to ZZ Top, you fucking loser. I just said that about a Hell's Angel. I know. Should we even be reading this? I don't think they're as strong these days as they were back then. No, I don't think they're violent.

Folks. I'm sorry for being rude, Hell's Angel. He was accompanied by a fellow hitman named Benjamin Psycho Silva, who made the trip to Oregon to carry out the murders. Also, the contract was not only to kill Margo, but to make her watch her two girls be shot first. Gary, the family French, has happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This case went unsolved until 1994, only because Bug-Eye Bob, well-in-prisoned, for

who knows what, bragged a fellow inmates of his killings. Eventually, him and Buck were convicted and given four life sentences. Psycho Silva was not charged because he was already imprisoned on death row for kidnapping, raping, and killing two college kids in the 80s. Oh, and on a side note, I just Googled Psycho Silva and his murder conviction was reversed in 2005. Whoa. Oh, fuck, working to be murdered.

Whoa. I can't find any updates after that. What the fuck? Maybe you guys can do some research and follow up on this for a possible My Favorite Murder Theme. No. Could be, duh, he is the killer, but conviction reversed. Yeah.

I can't feel out there. Let's tell everyone that. I can't help but say in an Oprah voice, you got off on a technicality and you got off on a technicality. And that's my favorite hometown murder. Thanks for talking, and miss for murder, Charlene. Shit. That's a good one.

Oh, fucked up, man. Is there anybody that tries to join the Hell's Angels named like Responsible Jim? That's all I could think of. They call him. They call him Jim the nice guy. The Whispering Man. Oh, that's just fucking. Jim the kind of women.

Man. The male feminist. Jim the male feminist wants to join our motor-cycle gang. Jim the feminazi, Smith, wants to. He'll get in your face about social issues. He makes a mean hot dish. That's rough. I know, man.

Back in the 70s, Hell's Angels were scary. It would be like they would just come to a town and everyone would be, I mean, that's what all those Charles Bronson movies are about. He's like the lone sheriff and then there's just like 50 motor-cycle gang members there to raise Hell. Yeah, I just don't think they're like that anymore. Well then Mask came out and you saw the softer side was Cher and her boyfriend, Sam Neill. Sam, it's not Sam Neill, that guy's British.

I don't know anything about it. I thought Stephen was making a Sam Neill face at me. He was just enjoying the podcast. Sorry, I'll read it. She didn't know you were going to reach you one more. Hey, I'm Aresha. And I'm Brooke. And we're the hosts of Wondery's podcast Even the Rich, where we bring you absolutely

true and absolutely shocking stories about the most famous families and biggest celebrities the world has ever seen. Our newest series is all about the incomparable diva Whitney Houston. Whitney's voice defined a generation and even after her death, her talent remains unmatched. But her incredible success hit a deeply private pain. In our series, Whitney Houston, Destiny of a Diva, we'll tell you how she hid her true self to make everyone around her happy and how the pressure to be all things to all people led her down a dark path.

Follow Even the Rich wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. This one. Yeah, one more. I'm Jeannie and the subject line is an all girls prep school, a seven foot killer and a loyal dog. Wow. Girl.

Jeannie, you nailed it. Speaking my language. Hi ladies. First of all, I love you both. And I can totally tell your voices. Oh, thank you. Good job, Jeannie. I know you get a lot of these, so hopefully my subject line caught your interest because

this one's a doozy. It did. Good job. All girls prep school named the Madeira School for School for High School. I can't be right. Did they teach you how to write? It was everybody majored in redundancy. Sorry, we love you.

We love you. We love you. From the moment I got there, I heard stories about the 14 year old girl who was murdered in the woods. So naturally, I did some research. She's the lifelong murderer, you know. First and foremost, the campus is on 376 acres of land. What?

The campus using about 5% of it, the unused portion is basically all woods. Here's your movie. We're in. This is scene one, right? Yeah. Fox rolling in. Yeah. All forest.

All girls. All girls. And a monster. And a dog. And then like, can there be like a strict teacher who in the end turns out to be the one that saves them all? Yes. Like a Snape.

A Snape. But a lady. Totally. You were thinking of a lady's name? Yeah. Mrs. Snape. Snape's girlfriend. She's on October 29, 1973, 14 year old Natalia.

Her name was Tasha, parentheses. Semler was tortured and murdered by 23 year old John Gilraith in the woods on campus. Oh no. Tasha, who was a small 5 foot 190 pound girl was walking from the school's chapel to lunch, so daytime, but never made it to the dining hall. Later that day her family thought it was strange when she didn't come home from school And her parents, so it was, you didn't stay there. It was like, you'd go home.

So you'd go to school in the woods and then come home. So it wasn't a boarding school, it was like a. It was just four girls. Yeah, okay. Later that day, her family thought it was her and she didn't come home from school. Her parents called the headmistress, her friends, et cetera. Mrs. Snape.

But they didn't panic. They called Mrs. Snape on her red phone on her desk. But didn't panic since bad things rarely happen in Northern Virginia at the time. Yeah, it was the 70s. As dinner time came and went, they started to worry and called the police who didn't think much of it and kind of rode it off.

Run away. Yeah, a teenager being rebellious. They didn't start investigating until several hours later and we all know that typically the first few hours that a person is missing are the most critical, duh. The police, that was in the email. The police arrived on campus at around 9 p.m. She was missing since before lunch.

Hello. Also in the email. They found her bike and backpack near the woods, but it had rained heavily, making it very difficult for dogs to track her scent. So instead of looking any further, they called the search off because that's totally normal.

Idiots. Tasha's parents obviously weren't ready to give up. So the following morning around 6 a.m., Tasha's father went to the campus with her beloved golden retriever, Tilly. We're not Tilly. Within minutes of arriving, Tilly found Tasha's body. Tilly did it.

Tilly found her. Do you think Tilly was so scarred from that? Yes. Thank you. A scarred golden retriever. Oh, what is worse? We have to, we have to start recording. Should we take a break?

No, I'm sorry. Oh, no, Tilly. Tasha's body was found beaten, bruised, scraped and naked from the waist down by her father and dog. No, absolutely. That's, this is awful. The two worst people who could find her. Her hands were tied so tightly by blanket scraps

that they were black from lack of circulation. She was tied to a tree. Oh, this is awful. They also found a gag stuffed in her mouth. She had punctured wounds on her back and chest, apparently from a screwdriver. The wounds along with multiple cuts and bruises on her face indicated she had been forced to endure prolonged torture.

This is horrible. She bled profusely, died from shock exposure and fatigue after being outside and tortured for over 10 hours in 30 degree weather. So they would have found her? Yes, it looks like it. Yeah. Holy shit.

Reports indicated that she had not been raped, but that there were open wounds on her ankles from trying to escape the ties. She was just 400 feet behind the chapel. Oh, my God. John Gilraith was almost seven feet tall. What the fuck? And 200 pounds.

Oh, no. And had been convicted of seven sex-related incidents prior to attacking Tasha. How many does it take? Sounds like eight. He also previously abducted and molested another 14-year-old girl from Madera for over two hours. Originally, he was sentenced over 50 years in prison

for this last crime, but was released with a sentence suspended on the condition that he go to a mental institution. Not even a year later, he was given outpatient status. What the fuck? On the 29th of October, he returned to Madera to prove that he had suppressed his irresistible impulses to attack girls.

After Tasha's murder, John Gilraith was convicted and sentenced to 50 years. Tasha's parents testified. 50? That means he could get out still. Nope, because he died in December of 2009. Wow, that's so recent. And she said she's not sure if he died in jail or what,

but he's gone. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. And also make sure your pets know you're sent, just in case. K-bye, Genie. Mimi, would you find me? She's like, after my naps. She's like, I don't even know where I am half the time.

That was crazy, bummer, intense, but also awesome and how awful it was. That's a crazy story, though. You would never have heard. Seven feet. My father's six foot four, and he is a very large man. And 200 pounds is like big. No, I guess not that big.

For someone seven feet tall, he's like a wraith. He's like a big, skinny monster in the woods. That's so scary. All right, you got one? You got a pelt? Can you deal with it? No, I have another murder story. That was, yeah.

It seems like this theme has really painted us into a corner in terms of, should we change the name of the podcast about rainbows or something? Yes, it's called Rainbow Time with Karen and Georgia. We should start like an after the podcast story, just talk about the best things that have ever happened. That's actually a great idea. At the end of this, we're going to tell each other

one thing that made us really happy this week. OK, good. Until then, I'm going to cry silently away from my microphone. This is just called Hometown Murder by Kelly. Hi, I recently discovered your podcast and needless to say, I'm obsessed. You ladies are my murder soul sisters. I live in Lakewood, Colorado, where I grew up.

When I was about six years old, a little boy, you ready for this? Yeah. Here we go. Was brutally raped and murdered in the green belt where we used to spend endless summer days playing, swimming, catching snakes, et cetera. Jacob McKnight was the same age as me

and went to a neighboring elementary school. My brother knew his older brother. They played sports and stuff. Anyways, Jacob was tagging along with his older brother and his friends one day down at the green belt. The story goes, they were giving him a hard time and he was younger. You know the deal.

Older brother being a dick and whatnot. They ended up leaving him behind and took off on their bikes. A man approached Jacob, allegedly this dude Chin, the CHINN, and offered to help him get home. He took him to the 7-Eleven on the corner and, according to surveillance videos, had bought him a slurpee before taking him back across the street to the green belt

where he raped and stabbed him like 100 times. He stashed his body under this fallen tree where it was later discovered. A few years after that, the family burned the tree. I remember driving by it and seeing it up in flames with a small crowd gathered around it. Bench was made to memorialize Jacob and was later vandalized.

They never solved the case. It remains cold to this day. Whoa. Anyway, this still haunts me to this day. I have a little boy of my own now and I can tell you he will never ride his bike alone or with friends until he's like 37. Oh, how fucked up is his brother?

Yes, that's the first thing I thought of. It's those... The decisions you make is a kid that you should not be having to make. Yeah. Because you shouldn't be out by yourself. No. And it's good that people are helicopter parents now

because when you're out on your own and you're eight and your brother's six, you're going to make the wrong decision. Totally. Always. I mean, unless it's hit home as it was when we got old later, like in the 80s and so, of like stranger danger, don't talk to strangers,

like don't... If someone says they know your parent, they don't know your parent. They didn't know that before, like what, 85 or something. No. I mean, like, pockets of people knew it, but yeah, on the whole, it was like, no, just walk around and people try to offer you a ride.

You know, just play it as it lays and figure out. Adults are authority figures and you need to say yes, sir and yes, ma'am, and do what adults tell you to do. That's the one thing I have to say. I'm so grateful that my mom, my mom had two alcoholic parents and she was an only child. So she basically raised herself.

And so she was super, from a very early age major, my sister, I both understood adults were not authority figures and we didn't have to listen to adults. And if anyone ever made us feel uncomfortable, like she laid the groundwork of all that stuff super early. She was also a psychiatric nurse. But she had, she like,

being a person who had to like fend for herself, essentially in all of life. She always... Like experienced shit and was like, that you don't need to do this. If an adult ever yells at you or raises their voice, you leave, you call me, you, like that you don't have to take shit

from people, especially adults. Yeah, I always liked someone, I think wrote recently somewhere on Facebook. I'm sorry, I'm not giving you any credit or I saw this somewhere that someone, that a parent says to their kid, there is no reason for an adult to ask a child for help. Yes.

So if a kid, if a guy comes to ask you to help him, find his dog or to help him. Look for anything. Or he needs, there's children do not get asked for help by adults. No. So don't ever call for that. Or when your mom needs you, let me come, let me help you.

You know, let me take you to her. I like that we're saying this as if a six year old's are listening to us. Listen to me. Your parents are. Your mommy would never. And he, yeah, so kids get ramped all the time. Oh no.

So dark. It's so dark. But I like, I think of my nephew and I'm like, he would never be alone. No. He would never. Those times are over. It's kind of a beautiful thing.

Yeah. Those times are over where it's like, yeah, people realize there's plenty of very sick people in this world. And you have to like, your kids aren't just to be turned loose into the field. But it's so crazy because do you think about like, if I saw a six year old walking alone down the street,

I would be like, get in the fucking car. Like you can't be walking alone. But then they're always like, don't get in the car. And then they would pull a gun on you. Cause they'd be like, ma'am, it simply isn't done. And then you go to prison. Did I ever tell you that story of when I was driving in Silver Lake and I was driving

it was nighttime along Griffith Park Boulevard, kind of behind Hyperion. Dark, it's dark over there. Dark. Yeah. Not a lot of street lights. And I saw a little kid, he probably was like nine years old running up the street. And he, as I was driving, it was kind of slow cause it was like, there's a bunch of stop signs.

He looked in the car and was looking into the car. So I stopped and rolled the window and I go, are you okay? And then he stopped running and goes, oh yeah, sorry. And then like ran up a driveway. But I think he maybe thought it was like his friend's mom or I don't know what it was, but there was this four second period of time where I'm like, this child is being pursued

and I need to get him into this car. Good for you, Karen. Thanks. Thank you very much. You're a great person. And you're beautiful. And you have a button nose. Look at his mom's nose. That is a goddamn button.

I want to sew that onto my coat. It is, it should be on a teddy bear's jacket. It is just... And how do you get past TSA with those sharp cheekbones? How do they let you into an airplane with those weapons of mass destruction? That's right, we ended on an up note. We did it!

What made you happy this week? Oh, I think all the messages from people who have had the back and sciatic problems that I had last episode or the episode before, everyone was so nice and offered so many solutions and it was just like this really nice outpouring of people who were cool. That's very cool.

It was very, very... It made me feel like I was in a community. You are. I am. It's very cool. People who are genuinely concerned and want to go, oh, I have a trick for that or I can solve this for you. I've experienced this thing, it sucks.

Here's a solution. Not like, I mentioned know-it-alls, it was just like, I want you to not feel like shit. It was great. There was a couple things I read that were contradictory information, though, where I was starting to get stressed out for it. No, no, no, no, no.

I was like, don't ice it, don't heat it. Oh, every single one was... I wanted to write down, like, it was just... But there were doctors and people who were writing in, they were like, don't do this, do that. And I said, listen to them, but yeah, there was a lot of contradictory shit and so I kind of just did all of it.

Smart. I didn't feel better. I get really nervous when I see, like, when someone writes in like, I'm actually a doctor, I'm actually a lawyer. And I'm just like, ooh, please don't look over here. I don't trust doctors and lawyers anymore for your listening to this shit.

Why are you filling your head with this absolute crap? We don't want people like you. We want people who are in menial jobs who are bored. Go to your charity events. Go stand around in your tuxedos, be doctors. We don't want you. What's the best thing that happened to you this week or a good thing?

You know what, to be totally honest, there was a thing that happened at work that it was just a tiny moment between me and another writer and I felt bad at how I reacted in the moment. I wish that I'd just been neutral the whole time, but I had like a little, someone kind of sass me and I sass them back. Someone who I consider a good friend.

And your sass is hurt sometimes. Yeah, I can be super, yeah. You're good at it. You know, well, it comes out and it's like, I was raised to sass at Def Com 5 and most people are barely at like a point too. And our fucking self-esteem's are like a negative. We're all just these fragile eggs.

Oh, come on. So it was a moment that passed and it wasn't that big of a deal. And then when I, but when I woke up the next morning, I was like, I need to say something. I need to do something that I was irresponsible. I felt just bad. And the next night he apologized to all of us

in front of everybody. And it was one of the bravest, coolest, most mature, like, I can't tell you how it went from me going like, oh, I have this bad feeling. And maybe I just need to ignore my bad feeling to like, oh, I work with true adults and fully developed people. So he felt guilty about the incident as well.

Yes. And so he actually apologized. He didn't like just set it at the table where it happened. Man, that is vulnerable as fuck. It's vulnerable. It's very strong and it's incredibly mature. And I just, I swear to God, like when we left, we walked out together and I just said,

that meant the world to me. Like that was amazing. And I felt terrible and, you know, whatever. But it was like, it's that kind of thing of when you see other people act good, then it gives you permission to do the same thing. Definitely. And I feel like that's, that's leadership.

Like that's, he did a thing that was such a leadership move that I couldn't, I just respect so much where it's like, it's so hard when you do something, even if he had never said a word about it, no one, none of us would have. It was not a big deal. It truly wasn't a big deal. It was fully tonal.

It doesn't matter if the thing happened. It matters so much. It's not a negative, there's not like a negative repot. It's like, what's the word? Yeah. It was neutral, but he then elevated it to this better point. Yes. We're just to express like, I wish I hadn't done that

or whatever, which I was just, I don't know. You guys love your lives being vulnerable. It makes, it makes your interactions and your connections with people so much more meaningful. And immediately apologize if you think you're in the wrong. Just do it. It will feel so much better. Like that idea and I'm, it's a great irony

that I'm the one saying this right now because this is the hardest thing in the world for me. But to be able to just drop your story and drop your act and just go, oh, I'm really sorry I did that. Or I'm really, I, you know, like to say what you really feel as opposed to standing behind an argument that actually doesn't matter. Like in 10 years, you would have never remembered the argument,

but you remember how awful you felt. Yeah. And it was that kind of like, it wasn't just like an apology. It was like a moment that elevated all of us. It was beautiful. It was wonderful. I'm happy for you. Thanks.

That was kind of private, but I didn't say his name. Yeah. And we don't know what happened. And I know it's a he just cause you said him, but. And hey, man, that's his business. You know, oh, am I wrong? Are you wrong? Are we wrong?

Not. Hey, we're not. Hey, thanks for listening. We're never wrong. Hey, nope. We're doing it right again. There we go. Yay.

Thanks for listening to the mini. So go to my favorite murder all over the internet. Find us. And stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Oh, bye. You want a mini cookie? Oh.

Oh, that was a mini meow. That was a no. No. No, I know. I'm good tonight.