My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - MFM Minisode 86

Episode Date: September 3, 2018

This week’s hometowns include attempted kidnappings and things found in cars.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We at Wondery live, breathe and downright obsess over true crime and now we're launching the ultimate true crime fan experience, Exhibit C. Join now by following Wondery, Exhibit C on Facebook and listen to true crime on Wondery and Amazon Music, Exhibit C. It's truly criminal. Hello. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder, the Minya Sode. Minya also. The Minyans Sode. This is a spot you buy the Minyans. God, they're funny. They're little. Sometimes they have two eyes. Sometimes they have one eye. The way they talk is adorable. It's babble, but you also understand what they're trying to say. This isn't, this episode isn't brought to you by Minyans. If so, it'd be millionaires right now. But I really did like that, like surprised the shit out of myself

by like just being really bored one time and turning that on and being like delighted by it. Oh, the Despicable Me franchise is rock solid in terms of comedy. I've watched all of those movies with my niece. The first one, we loved it so much. We watched it all the time. It's so cute. It's so funny and so cute. Charming. But that's not what this is about. This is about the Minyans. Now we're going to knock at charming and cute and read you your fucked up stories that you send us. Do you understand that life is about contrast and that when you have the charming and cute, you come under it hard with the horrifying. Yes. Are you ready for the first one? Give it to me. The subject line of this is we saved a life. Hello everyone with both human and animal. I love you guys so

much, but let's get right to this. Perfect. Thanks. This isn't so much a hometown story, but a story with girls from my hometown. When I was 14, I played on a traveling softball team. That just, you know, my niece Norris on a traveling softball team. Yes. Steel Breeze, you know, okay, we were based out of Pittsburgh, but we were in Wheeling, West Virginia for the weekend of a tournament. After all our games were over for the day, myself and three of my teammates were hanging out back at our hotel in one of our family's rooms. Some of our parents went to the local casino and I bet they fucking hell. Yeah, they did. They're like, great job today. Everybody get away from us. Uh, and others were hanging out by the pool, but for the most

part, the four of us were unsupervised. So what could four unsupervised teenage girls do with their time? You ask, you guessed it. Sneak away from our hotel to smoke some weed. Our hotel sat on a tiny country road all by itself, other than a few random houses down the street. We snuck off to a little spot down the road, tucked back into a little into the woods, all ready to get quote unquote highest fuck. We realized we forgot a lighter to hit our tin foil bowl. We made, oh parentheses. Yes, I know. I probably have cancer now. No, no, it's Alzheimer's. So we walked back to get one and then we returned to our secluded little spot. We smoked, we got all giggly and we decided to walk back to our hotel on our walk back. We saw a van coming from

behind us from down the country road toward us and our hotel going towards the highway. As the van drove creepily slow by us, we all noticed the woman driving really stared us down. And then as she continued by, it seemed like in slow motion, she looked into the back seats and we saw a little girl sitting back there. We all agreed it was weird, but we thought we were just being paranoid because we were high, very, very likely. We got back to our hotel safe and sound and we just did high stuff. High teenagers do eat snacks and giggle. Here's where the shit gets real. We were hanging out just goofing off when out of nowhere, one of my friends just walks over and turns on the radio, not saying a word while she does it. A song was playing and then it was immediately

interrupted by an Amber alert. We didn't pay much attention to it, but then all caught that they were talking about our area. Then it described a van and a woman driving it and the little girl she kidnapped. Oh my God. We all froze and just looked at each other. They described the van and the woman just as we saw it. In somewhat disbelief, we went and found my friend's mom trying to keep cool and yeah, I forgot that part. I didn't forget that part because I was like, I bet they're not going to call the cops because they're high. It's not really happening. It's only getting high. It's like, what if you have to take care of something? No, I mean, I think that's why it's funny when you're 14 or when you're younger, but yeah, you have so much to take care of as you're an

earthquake and a fucking crazy earthquake and you have to get your pets and get outside. Yeah, but you're like, I'm going to stop and eat his knickers first. Okay, hold on. Okay, so they go find her friend's mom and they told her what we saw on our quote unquote walk and about the Amber alert. She said we were probably being paranoid, but she called the police just to be safe and told them where we were and what we saw. We left it at that and we went on our evening. Then about an hour later, we got a call back from the police. They found the little girl and arrested the woman at the gas station right down the street from our hotel. They had found and saved the little girl based on our call. Holy shit. Because it was the woman we saw. Hot saves the day. Yeah.

Smoked hot, everyone. Legalize it. This was over 15 years ago and is still a moment I will never forget. I'll never fucking forget it. I'm just reading it fourth hand. Hope you enjoyed this Reiki story with my hometown friends, SSTGM, Kel. Dude, that's a story. That is a fucking great story. That is move her to the front story. Drop notch. I don't even want to read mine now. Oh, that's great. Oh, but also under the. Did this really happen or are you just stoned? Or are you high from the aluminum foil you just smoked into your brain? Yeah. Are you just really insane? Okay. So good. Thanks, Kel. This one's called. Good job. My dad nearly had me kidnapped. Oh, hi all. So it was 1996. My dad was looking to sell his car. A man interested in purchasing said

car comes over to take a look. My dad's out front giving the man a tour of the car. A tour of the car. Toddler Ellie running around while he is doing so. After a while, my dad comes back into the house and mom asks how he got on. Oh, they must be Brits. Oh, all good. He is just taken out, taken it out for a test drive. Dad replies. My mom then asks if it was a good idea to let him, letting him take the car by himself. Fair question because who in their right mind lets a stranger take their car for a drive unsupervised. Yeah. Don't panic, folks. My dad had it covered and he replied to my mom and said, no, it's all right. Ellie's in the back. She said she's a toddler running around. Toddler Ellie running around. I can only imagine what followed was a lot of hysteria

and foul language being thrown at my dad from my very frazzled mother. I came back though, so it's cool. And that is a true and mildly not so mildly alarming story of my near kidnapping experience of my dad's wonderful parenting skills. Can we just take a second to imagine the poor man being trusted to take the car out alone with a random child in the back? That aside. It's so crazy. If I was that mother, I would have slapped him forward and back. If I was the person taking the car for a test drive, I'd be like, I don't trust you and leave. Right. I mean, because was she in a toddler seat or was she just sitting around in the back seat? Who fucking knows? It sounds like she was just wandering around. It does sound like she was just in the car. Get in, take the car for

a test drive with this nice man. Hold this beer. That aside, and believe it or not, my dad is actually a truly amazing man and an incredible father. Unfortunately, I only got a short 19 years of him as he passed away in 2013. I miss him dearly and have many, many more stories of this wonderful crazy man who was at times clearly way too trusting. And for that, I am blessed. Thank you guys for everything you do. Weird to think that listening to two funny chicks talk about murder is a sort of escapism for my severe anxiety. But hey, whatever floats your boat, right? I'm clearly not alone. Stay sexy and don't send your daughter off in a car with strangers. Ellie, Ellie, you're not alone. Also, I wonder if some of her anxiety is very deep seated,

early trust of your parents skills. Who is minding the shop to be like, I just don't feel safe in life. Well, he's not going to steal the car because he has our child. Right. Right. Oh my God. Well, we'll keep going on the car theme. Okay. This is the subject line is things found hidden in cars. Okay. Hello, Karen, Georgia, Steven and all furry friends of the MFM team. Cool. I work as a technician for a German luxury car manufacturer. Well, can we get a sample of those please? Yeah, we need to sample that. I know you guys have been asking for stories about stuff found in walls, but I thought you might be interested in some strange things I've found in cars while working on them. Yes. Yes, we are. My first story is from when I had started in the

industry. A client came in asking for her car to be searched for a tracking device as her abuse of ex husband had confronted her to grocery store when he had a restraining order, when she had a restraining order against him and had changed her number and address. I searched the car in all the obvious places thinking that the guy didn't have the have access to the car. He did and eventually found the device in the spare tire compartment. That's where it always is. Right. No, I don't know. I don't know. Apparently, the guy had a key to the car and the lady didn't want to pay for new keys and locks to the car. Anyways, the younger me is excited to have actually found it and happily showed the client the device and I'll never forget her horrified reaction. Of

course. Oh my God. It's so creepy. A detective came to get my statement and me being into true crime, I found it very exciting to be involved. A few years later, I was working on a car where I found an unrolled sleeping bag in the back seat and in the trunk, I found a dirty shovel and a woman's single high heeled shoe. I was creeped out. What? What? I was creeped out but hoped that the guy who owned the car had simply been a pegged leg gardener who crossed dressed and slept in his car. No. Oh my God. I mean, it would be interesting but I don't think that's it. No. Another, who knows though? Dude. I mean, look, we all get to be who we want to be. Jesus. In another car, my team leader was doing some electrical diagnoses and had to remove the

car seat back panel which hid the fuses and modules. This isn't a compartment that the client should even be aware about since it's super tricky to open and only accessible from the trunk. But in a blank fuse panel compartment, the team lead found a pack of condoms. I can only imagine the guy was trying to hide them from his wife. That's a long, like a big link to go to to hide that. Yeah. Don't you have pockets? Or don't you have any fucking like, you know, what's the word, respect for your wife? For real. I was just doing short term, but you're right. Long term, it's how about you end the relationship you're not happy in. Right. But it's more fun to take your car apart and hide condoms in it. Okay. Finally, the best thing I ever found in a car was a

beautifully homemade stained glass portrait of somebody's dick pic. It was lovingly made and incredibly detailed including vans on the dick itself and the bathroom counter that could be seen in the background. What an amazing gift to give to someone. So funny. I bet the car owner was not expecting anyone to ever find it. But when you leave where things in your car, somebody most definitely will. Holy shit. But also, it's stained glass. It's not like a painting or whatever. Read it again, the description of it. Finally, the best thing I ever found in a car was a beautifully homemade stained glass portrait of somebody's dick pic. So someone sent someone a picture of their penis as if to say, consider me in your long and hilarious artist like her

best friend probably was like, yeah, I'm going to get I'm going to make you remember this forever and made and her specialty was stained glass and she made her that's a beautiful gift. Vans included. Just so everyone knows, technicians will always check the trunk during services to check on the spare tire. So anything left there can and will be seen by everyone in the shop if it is hilarious or questionable. Anyways, I love the show and all the work you ladies put into it. Stay sexy and don't leave anything incriminating in your car. Melissa. Thanks, Melissa. I'm trying to think if I have anything in my trunk that I'd be like embarrassed of or that I wouldn't want in there, but I can't think of it. It's all boring shit. Just like the unused

yoga mats. That's embarrassing. Mine is like always packages I do not send. Like I will package something up to return it or whatever and put it in the back of my car and just it's stay it's there forever. Looking for a better cooking routine with meal planning shopping and prepping handled. Hello Fresh has you covered. Hello Fresh makes home cooking easy and affordable so you can stay on track and on budget in the new year. Hello Fresh meals are convenient, seasonal and delicious. Stay cozy all winter long with classic comfort foods available weekly. Why stop with just dinner? Now you can enjoy Hello Fresh's expanded menu of quick lunch solutions, weekend brunch, simple side dishes and amazing desserts. Karen January is going to be my month

for Hello Fresh. I am so sick of takeout. I miss cooking so much I haven't lifted a knife or a pan since like early fall. So I can't wait to get back in the kitchen and Hello Fresh makes it so easy and also makes it so that my food tastes good which is hard to do on my own. It gives you everything, everything you need. So get up to 20 free meals with purchase plus free shipping on your first box at hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 with code murder 20. That's up to 20 free meals plus free shipping on your first box when you go to hellofresh.ca slash murder 20 and use code murder 20. Goodbye. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my new podcast Killer Psyche Daily, I share a quick 10-minute rundown

every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds, psychopaths and cold-blooded killers you hear about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse, FBI agent and criminal profiler. On Killer Psyche Daily, I'll give you insight into cases like Ryan Grantham and the newly arrested Stockton Serial Killer. I'll also bring on expert guests to dive deeper into the details, share what it's like to work with a behavioral assessment unit at Quantico, answer some killer trivia and even host virtual Q&As where I'll answer your burning questions. Hey Prime members, listen to the Amazon Music Exclusive Podcast Killer Psyche Daily in the Amazon Music app. Download the app today. All right, this is a good one. This is one

that I think you're going to like. Okay. This title is Swiss Cheese Fetish Guy from Miniso 29. Hit me up on OKCupid 10 years ago. This was his opener. What? Really? Yes. This is a treat. Magical. Are you ready for this? Early Christmas. Okay, so this is from the listener. Her name's Amy. She says, hey sexy ladies. Okay. I just listened to Miniso 29 where you discussed Swiss Cheese Fetish Guy from Philly. The Swiss Cheese Pervert is his professional name. Swiss Cheese Pervert, if anyone doesn't remember episode 29, he would drive around in his car and like, if a woman would look over, he would hold, what was it? Hold Swiss Cheese near his dick. He would hold up a piece of Swiss Cheese while he was jerking off. Yeah, naked from the waist

down. Right. This is a car themed episode. It is a car themed episode. And also there's a really good animated, somebody animated and Stephen, Stephen's going to find, so we say the name, but somebody did an animation of us talking about that story for the first time. It's one of my favorite things I've ever seen. And I know that there's a photo of Paul Holes on the wall because Paul Holes told me that there's a photo of him in the wall of that. That's right. And I didn't know how to respond to that to Paul Holes telling me that. I think I just crashed my car because they put like a hot for Holes calendar on the wall in the animation. And then some smart Murderino was like, I love this clip. And then added Paul Holes to make sure he saw it.

Well, he told me we didn't have to do it. His mouth that he saw it. To your face. To my face, with his own face. Yes. And it was horrifying. What did you do? Well, her cheeks are red right now, by the way. I'm hot. He's a powerful man. It's scary. I don't know. I just don't know. I don't know how to talk about this. I'm blushing so fucking hard right now. Also, right now, we're giving, we're kind of giving away a secret. We are giving and that's why I don't want to talk about it. That's right. He was in my car. We hang out with Paul Holes, you guys. He was in my car, which was scary enough because I'm driving with a cop. Yes. And you know how I fucking drive. Yes. And then he told me that.

And I was just like, I should just crash the car right now. You're like, Paul, I have to pull over for a second. If you don't mind. Stephen, Stephen, will you give us the calls? Yeah, Nick Terry. And where can you find it? If you just, if you just go to YouTube. If you just Google Swiss cheese pervert. I just did Swiss cheese pervert. My favorite murder in Nick Terry's videos. Like Nick Terry. We'll put it up on our, we'll put it on Twitter. It's a real fast one. It's really fun. So anyway, here we are. Oh my god. He's from Philly. I damn near crashed my car when we were talking about in the money. So when I realized who you were discussing, he propositioned me online in 2008. I was living in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Is that right? Yes. About 90 minute

drive north of Philly. And I had a dating and I had a dating profile on okay, Cupid. I received the following message out of the blue with the subject line. Can we discuss this from the guy who a couple years later made national headlines for flashing his junk wrapped in a wad of cheese to an underage girl. At the time, I couldn't decide if it was a joke or if I should just admire this guy for just laying it all out there and trying to get his needs met. Turns out he was just a creeper hitting on any female human within the, at least a 90 mile radius who was so disrespectful of anybody's boundaries that he was kicked out of fat life. What's that? I guess it's a fetish life. I was thinking met life. He was so disrespectful of anybody's boundaries that he was kicked out

of fat life. And I, that's hilarious. That's very extreme. Yeah. Yeah. And then she says, no, I never responded to him. I emailed the message to a friend before shutting down my dating profile. If you ever need a mental break from reading about murder and rather know way too much about this guy's fetish, here you go. And then she says, enjoy question mark, question mark, question mark. Amy, thank you Amy for sending this. That's unbelievable. Now listen, I've been hesitant to read this because I'm not shaming anyone for their fetish. Everyone is into something different and we're all fucking humans and just trying to make ourselves and other people happy. That's the point. But he is a creep who flashed people and didn't ask for consent. And so fuck him and

fuck everything. Yeah. I mean, if you're getting kicked off that life, then you're not every, that's just it is the majority of people have some kind of like, this is the thing I like. Obviously it's, we all have preferences, but it's like putting your preference on other people as if it's their job to make it all happen for you is what separates normal people from the perverted. Part of your preference is that you're doing it to unsuspecting people who haven't consented. Yes. Then I can read this online, I mean on this podcast right now. Well, and that's kind of the key to everything is if part of your fetish is the lack of consent, no. Then that's problematic. Then the answer is no. Yes. Okay. Then the answer to this is, are you ready for this?

Oh, wait, we've got more. No, I have his email to her. Oh my God. I didn't realize. Oh, she's sorry. I have his email. She sent the email to us. Are you going to do a voice? Please do your character voice. Okay. Here's his email. Subject is, can we discuss this? And this is how it starts. Oh no. This is my fetish. Full version. I love the way Swiss cheese feels against my penis. Oh, either a slice of Swiss cheese being wrapped around my penis or a chunk of Swiss cheese being rubbed against my penis. You want me to keep going? Not in that accent. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Can I just pause you really quick? I always thought, and maybe it's because of artwork we've been shown. Yeah. And remember when the girl dressed up like him for

Halloween? Like held it above the penis. Yeah. She was just holding it up. Remember when that girl made us a Swiss, Steven as a Swiss cheese pervert? Yes. Or was it Elvis as the Swiss cheese? No, it was Steven. It was Steven with the bald cap on. Right. And I still have the little piece, the piece of Swiss cheese that's like a Christmas ornament. It's a beautifully cut piece of felt. I can't remember her name. It's sweetheart. Thank you. I mean, that's old. That's from like a year ago. Okay. Want me to keep going or should I not even? No, I really want to hear it. Okay. I love even more when a woman uses the Swiss cheese to pleasure me or simply wrap Swiss cheese slices around my penis and allows me to hang out with her as I wear the cheese. And watch like

international house hunters or whatever. That's better. So to give you a basic understanding of my Swiss cheese fetish, the simplest thing is that it's just, it's a hand job using Swiss cheese as the tool to pleasure me. But I like to expand upon it by having you wrap Swiss cheese slices around my penis and I wear it for a length of time. Then you repeat the process allowing me to savor your handiwork. I mean, he's explained it seven times. We get there's not that four more paragraphs. We don't have to do this. I mean, I'm interested in the mindset. Okay. In my younger day, in my younger years, I developed a strong urge for sex, but not being the best looking guy out there. Girls tended to ignore me. So I fantasize about sex and masturbate. It's just not the same.

One day I just had some strange feeling and for some unknown reason used cheese to masturbate. I started to relate girls to cheese. Girls are attractive, soft, silky, smooth feeling and have milky complexions. And holes. Girls hands are also the same way, especially like girls with long, thin fingers. I feel really dirty reading this. Gross. All this was a turn on as for the cheese. I tried many different types of cheeses. Cheddar, he goes on to name different kinds of cheeses. How do you do that with cheddar though? It's so crumbly. Yeah. Okay, go ahead. Even some fancy cheeses and cheese whiz. Bree. However, none could compare to Swiss. Swiss is a perfect representation of cheese to me. If I held up a slice of Swiss cheese in front of you,

that compared to any other style of cheese, I'm sure you would recognize Swiss over the rest. No, you're right. I can't argue you on this one. God bids me Swiss cheese. Also, the way it smells, given it's not that bad, I use domestic and it's eye patterns and color. Swiss is very attractive to me. It also shares all the characteristics I see in girls. It feels smooth and silky. It's semi soft and flexible, and it smells like perfume to me. Swiss cheese. Okay. Now, do I like regular sex? Sure. But at the time, I would say a good 10 years before I had normal sex. This was the substitute. Now, I'm just addicted to it. Like a smoker is addicted to cigarettes. Nope. It's not like that. No,

it isn't really like that. It's like a drug that I simply can't get enough of. Everything leading up to asking a girl, I have to having it done is the high and then once I come is the low, but the low satisfaction is short lived. I'm going to stop you really quick just to say this is an introductory email. Yeah. This is the first email he sends. Yeah. The first one. This isn't like they're good friends and finally he's like, look, I'm in a level with you. Yeah. It just ends by saying, do you understand and would be willing to help with my addiction? Question mark the end. I don't know. Should we leave this in? Yes, for sure. Terrible. Well, no, but here's the thing. I would just say, I would like to say this in listening to that and not we're laughing at the

fact that this is it. This is an overstep of boundaries beyond belief. Hopefully she got that and then there was like, oh my God. Yeah. I was going to say deleted it, but clearly she didn't. But I would say this, everybody feels like they were ignored by the opposite sex when they were younger. And you know why they feel that way? Because they always, you always like the cheerleader or the quarterback. You don't go, oh, I like the really weird guy in the corner. Yeah. The person who would actually or like, you would have a chance with my friend who's like, super nice to me. Right. It's never that because everyone's got their, you know, their dreams and the stars or whatever. When you take that as this fact toy and hold it to your breast, like you've been so damaged

and then you go through the rest of life, like, oh, well girls don't like me or guys don't like me because this, it's, you're just lying. It's like, put your shit down and get in the mix. Yeah. I say the, it's the most hypocritical thing I've ever said in my life. You've been married. But I got in. I've got hurt. You know, you can say whatever you want. I mean, it's true. And I've had several wonderful relationships. But I mean, it's like, you have to let go of that idea that you, you somehow were rejected by all of one gender. It's bullshit. It's like, you have to open your eyes to who is interested in you and what you do. Like, why are people not interested in you? Are you a fucking dick? Yes. Maybe you're a dick. Maybe you're a dick. And also think of, there's tons

of unattractive people that are very charismatic and sexy. So don't use that as an excuse because just like, don't back yourself into this kind of corner. And suddenly it's like, because you complain that people don't like you all the time. Or because you're holding up cheese in front of people going, this is what women are to me. Okay, well, then go to therapy. That's not women are not Swiss cheese. They're not all silky and smooth with holes. Like get your, your, you've oversimplified everything to the point where you can't be in the world. Yeah. Oh, this is surprising. Oh, oh, Stephen is showing Karen, the girl who dressed up. It's Bryn Bryn. Her name is Bryn Bryn on Instagram. And it's the fucking greatest Halloween costume of all time.

She's the Swiss cheese pervert. She's wearing white flesh color, like a white person's flesh colored lycra leggings with a like felt star that she put over her crotch to look like she's like hiding her junk. Yep. A bald cap and she has a Swiss, a piece of Swiss cheese because that's the picture the lady took. And it's like, he wasn't wearing, he's wearing a blue t-shirt and wasn't wearing pants. It's hooray for you, Bryn Bryn. Do you have another one? Oh, this is very short and I think you're gonna like it. Let's send on something else. You know, and everybody again, will just reiterate fetish up all you want. This was not fetish shaming. Forensic beach encounter. Uh-oh. Hi there, murderesses. I just started listening to your podcast. Thank you for

distracting me from my tedious pot farm job. Everyone hates their jobs. No problem, man. I know that would be like so many people's dream job. Though not all my co-workers enjoy me yelling murder every time we are choosing something to listen to. We get it. Thank you. I was at the beach in Brookings, Oregon yesterday drinking a beer in the sand with my sister. Sounds awesome. We noticed a strange netted trap like device hanging in a tree. We were trying to figure out what it could possibly be for catching birds, butterflies, who, why, what. A woman wandered over and said, you ladies picked the wrong day to sit here and then mumbled something about the smell of a body. And she started fussing with the trap and we asked her what she was up to.

It turns out she was a forensic entomologist trapping flies with rotten chicken liver. She said she was going up the entire west coast, identifying which flies were in each area so that when dead bodies were found, they can gather unique geographical information from the type of flies and maggots found on the bodies. Amazing. Which can air in solving murders, which can aid in the solving of murders. She said, you're too early. She said that flies can smell rotting flesh from a mile or more away. I didn't know that. And that there was nothing in her trap because the wind was blowing the scent straight out to sea. We told her about a dead seal we saw further down the beach and she excitedly took off an Instagram. I love her. I found the

encounter to be fascinating and thought you might too. Thank you, Aria. Wow. That's amazing. How cool is that woman? What a job. Yeah. Tonight on CBS. I love her. The Coastal Bug Lady. I want that's the working title. I'll think of a new one. The Coastal Bug Lady. Coastal Bug Lady. Thanks for writing in you guys. Keep doing it. Such a good round of stories this week. Yeah. My favorite murder at Gmail. And just tell us anything. Yeah, we like hearing from you all your stories. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Want cookie?