My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - My Favorite Murder Presents: That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast - Episode 1: Bully

Episode Date: January 5, 2021

My Favorite Murder presents the first episode of That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast where Kara and Liza recap SVU’s “Bully” (Season 12, Episode 18) and the true scenarios (Leona Helmsley and R. Budd Dwyer) the episode is based on. Plus an interview with the “bully” herself, Kate Burton. Listen and subscribe to That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, you guys, we're so excited to share with you an episode of our new, exactly right podcast, That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast. It's hosted by SVU superfans and comedians Cara Clank and Lisa Traeger. Cara and Lisa have been working on this podcast for over two years. So we're so excited that we finally get to share episode one with you here in the My Favorite Murder Feed. Episodes two through five of the podcasts are out now. So after you listen, head over to That's Messed Up to subscribe and catch up.

On each episode, Cara and Lisa will take listeners through an episode of Law and Order Special Victims Unit. They recap not only the plot, but the classic SVU moments and tropes that occur. Then they'll walk you through the true crime or crimes that the SVU episode was based on. And then finally, they'll interview a guest who appeared on that episode. Some guest interviews they've already come that have already come out include Oscar winner Marsha Gay Hardin, Kate Burton, who you may know from Grey's Anatomy and Scandal, and the actress Ari Grainer.

They'll bounce all around the 22 seasons of SVU. And every Tuesday, they'll announce the following week's SVU episodes. You can watch along with them and catch up. But even if you don't watch, you'll get a full and detailed recap from the hosts. Yeah, you kind of don't have to watch. Oh, and also we should mention that even if you don't watch SVU or you're not really familiar, this podcast is for all true crime lovers because it's equal parts SVU, but then also true crimes.

So check it out. Even if law and order is new to you. And it'll make you laugh, which is awesome too. Yes. So enjoy the first episode right now and then head over to that's messed up for episodes two, three, four and five. And don't forget to subscribe to that's messed up and SVU podcast on Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.

And if you like what you hear, please write Cara and Lisa a great review. That's right. And you can follow them on Twitter at messed up pod and on Instagram at that's messed up pod. Goodbye. Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable. We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on these are our stories.

Done done yay, hello, welcome to the first episode of that's messed up and SVU podcast. We are comedians slash SVU superfans. I'm Cara Clank. I'm Lisa Traeger and we're very excited. We're so excited. And obviously this is about SVU true crime and we will get into all of that. But first we want to introduce each other because I guess it's like a first date. We want you guys to know who we are.

Like who are these random women that are just beautiful in our drawing and you're like, who are these gals with such great hair and we'll let you know. Yeah, so we're both comedians. I've been in comedy for about 12 years, stand-up comedy for about 12 years. I'm married to another stand-up comedian. We have a 20 month old toddler baby girl and Rosie did start saying my name. I don't know if you want to tell anyone her name, but Rosie does say Lisa's name. And also she now when I am busy, she goes, Mama podcast.

Oh my God. So she'll be like, even if I'm like in the bathroom, I can hear her being like, ah, podcast. My favorite is when she goes, not. Anyways, I'm a I'm a comedian as well. I've been doing it 11 years. Oh, nine is when I started and, you know, I dabble in some acting. But mostly mostly we do comedy and I am not married.

I would like to be married. My ulterior motive to my whole career is to find a spouse. But you can't be like too, you can't know too much about me. But you have, yeah, I don't know. I am looking for a wife. I will settle for a husband, but I would prefer a wife and then I but I am child free by choice, but I'm an aunt in the traditional sense where I have nieces and nephews and then I do feel like I have kind of babies coast to coast that I

like buying presents for and hugging. Yeah. And that make me really happy relationship with my daughter. So I'll tell people a little bit about you, Lisa, so that you don't actually have to like brag on yourself because you do have a very impressive life slash resume. Lisa came to this country at age three from Russia. She has it's like actually very delightful to hear her speak in like rush English to her parents on the phone.

Yeah. What's even better is trying to explain to my parents what a podcast is. Yeah, that's the most fun thing to try to explain. She's a Chicago native. She moved to New York after doing stand up in Chicago for a long time. And that's where we met Hannah, who is our intrepid producer. Hannah, say hi. What's up?

If you ever hear a third voice talking on our podcast, it's usually Hannah are amazingly organized producer. We both have known her for years and years through comedy. Lisa has had a half hour on Comedy Central. She's got a half hour special on Netflix as part of the degenerates. Also, she says she dabbles in acting. She recently, I thought, was a scene stealer in the Amazon movie King of Staten Island. So if you want to go check that out and get a little bit more of an idea of what

if you want to see me in a low ponytail and a tie, that's the movie. That's what like your your waitress outfit in that movie is exactly like what my waitress outfit was like, pretty much like just so unflattering. I had a clip on tie, like I very much identified with your character. And in the makeup chair, I kept being like, are you sure we just can't raise the ponytail, maybe a fun, messy bun? And they're like, and I kept trying to fight. And they're like, Judd said, no, I'm like, I just can't imagine Judd is like,

give her a low ponytail or else to the side part and gel it down. But I guess he he did do that. You are also an amazing stand up. And I guess I just call myself amazing, but we are. And I loved going to your album recording. Your album, Undefeated, is so fucking good. My I love the Disney Princess joke. There's a trip if you're looking for the best transitional lenses joke that there is.

Undefeated is the album for you. And I remember sitting on the floor and it was because it was sold out and it was so much fun. And then you are a very skilled writer. I always love when I type how I talk into something and then you make it palatable for the world and grammar, which is amazing. But yeah, girl code younger and then the biggest brag of all fucking time is you wrote for Drag Race, which is amazing. We like to say our Venn diagram of friendship is SVU Drag Race Housewives.

That is us. Yeah, we love Housewives. In fact, today you're going to get a little taste of Housewives. And we didn't even plan that. That's pretty fucking cool. It just naturally are all of our passions collide. Now I just need Miley Cyrus to do an episode and I'll explore. There haven't been more drag queen episodes also of SVU.

We need to facilitate that. I'll message some agents. Yeah. So yeah, we have a lot of common interests. And before I met you, Cara, I like even though I was living in Chicago, I knew who you were. And I think you knew like all girl comics know each other, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're all like pretty on board with each other. And when we started, there were less. Now it's like so fun to have so many Housewife fans as comedians. Everyone. But we met at UCB East at your show. If you build it, we had we had met, I think, but this was like the first time we truly connected was at my show in the green room. We started talking about how we both like one of us brought up SVU.

We were like, oh, my God, I love that. And then you told me about this Twitter account. Yes, Doink Doink, which is at Doink Doink and it's amazing. It will it tweets anytime any law and order is on television. What episode? What channel? And when it starts and it influences my life. Sometimes I'm on Twitter and I'm like, oh, my God, in three minutes. And I'll like go tie on immediately.

So yeah, we discovered that we both love SVU. We both love true crime. We have a favorite forensic pathologist in common. Dr. Michael Baden, I don't we love him. Yeah. If you have another favorite, let us know because he is the king of. Well, Lee, Dr. Lee is a good one. The one who did like, I think, OJ and stuff like that. He's he's also a good forensic pathologist.

But Dr. Baden on his show, autopsy. Great. It was just so good because people would write to him and be like, please help, please, you got to switch the death certificate to be not natural so we can investigate. And I just love that he's a superhero and travels with his little briefcase from town to town, solving crimes. But yeah, and we love SVU in the way that I'm assuming everyone does, which is you want to have sex with either Christopher Maloney or Marish

Gahargette or both of them at the same time. Like is that is that now while we're watching a glimpse of Stabler, shirtless and angry and, you know, contemplating about his divorce? So that's what that's what we want. Yeah, I have like, love this show from the beginning. It premiered on my birthday in 1999. Really? So yeah, it's a I think it's written in the stars for me to be obsessed with the show. I remember one time I went to a Paley Center event and it was the SVU panel

and I bought my ticket too late. So I didn't even get to sit in the room with the people. I had to sit in a side room at the event and watch it on the screen. And then afterwards me and a few like 10 women just stood outside in the rain waiting to see Marishka and Peter walk out and then afterwards we were just deflated. And if you were one of those women, please let me know if you were standing in the rain with me. And you can do that at that'smesseduppod at gmail.com. I want to know because I did feel very I felt happy to see a glimpse of them

together and in love, but then also sad for myself that I was willing to get wet just to look at her once. I don't know. She lived on my same neighborhood in New York for 11 years and I never saw her. My sister did, but I never saw her if we can see. I mean, it's her house. I would love to see that she needs to do a 73 questions. I want for Vogue. I want to see the inside of her home so bad.

So this podcast is two years in the making over two years. I originally came up with this idea in like 2017 and had a sorry, Lisa, I had a different partner associated. We recorded a bunch of episodes together and then just scheduling wise, it wasn't going to work out with her. She's her name is Jackie Zabrowski. You should all follow her and listen to her podcast page seven is one of her podcasts and it's very popular.

And she, I don't think she just had time for this. So yeah, thank you, Jackie. Honestly, so glad you couldn't do it. This is a dream come true that now when I watch SVU and people are like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm working. I can't do anything with you. So Lisa perfectly was moving to LA at the same time. So it like all worked out.

And then, you know, we ended up going to pitching exactly right. And Hannah had already been thinking of doing something like this. So it was like a perfect match. What I love so much is in the emails, like when our manager messaged us to say that Hannah also wanted to do an SVU podcast was the same day that you gave birth to Rosie. Yeah. So it's just so cute that I'm like, Oh, this is great news. She is in labor.

But then I still emailed you being like, I know you're in labor, but we have to write this thing for the thing. And our manager was like, leave Kara alone. I'm like, okay, you're right. You're right. We should let her give birth to Rosie. Yeah. So a labor of love.

This has been a long time coming. And we're so excited that now you guys are hearing it. And it's called that's messed up. And that is a, for those who know, and for those who don't, it is a reference to iced tea. I used to say that's messed up all the time. Apparently writers, it was apparently it was a big drinking game. And the writers stopped writing it in for him,

but from seasons like two to nine or 10, I think you can catch iced tea saying, Oh, that's messed up about a lot of stuff. And it's true. Like when Lisa and I are researching the, these true crimes or watching these episodes, we definitely say that to each other all the time. Very heinous crimes. Yeah. So the, essentially the layout of the show,

in case you're just stumbling upon it right now is we are going to jump all over the show's 22 season history. We're going to pick episodes that we like and that are based on true crimes. And we're going to do a recap, little analysis of the episode. And then we're going to do a deep dive into the true crime that the episode is based on. And then our dream come true for, for us is we get to interview an actor from the show from that episode.

So every episode we get to talk to a person from the episode. Can you believe it? Oh my God. And we're talking to some really awesome people. So yeah, we're really excited. And we recognize that SVU is a fantasy about the legal system and we love the show. We love the characters,

but we do also realize this is not the reality of how cops behave. This is absolutely not how the justice system works. And we plan to call that out whenever we can. Yeah, I mean, the show is called SVU and the show is about special victims and our podcast is called that's messed up. So obviously we plan to tackle some pretty intense subject matter, whether it is fictional or not. And we're comedians.

So our goal is to entertain, but we will also be taking a page from Olivia Benson's book and always being respectful of the victims and our listeners. So we're going to get into our episode and side note. We did record this before the election. So if you hear us talking about 45 as present day, that's because we did not have our celebratory election yet. Yeah, we're so excited for you guys to hear this podcast and to get started.

And I mean, ultimately my goal is just to be able to afford Hulu without ads guys. And I want to meet those women in the rain and find a spouse. No, and we need, and we want to be guest stars on the show. We want this. We need to become so popular that the SVU writer's room is like, well, I guess these ladies have to find a dead body. They just let us find a body.

We're not asking to like be incorporated into the cast. We just want to find a body. Yeah, pre theme song, pre theme song. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's get into bully season 12 episode 18. This starts with like the classic disclaimer that's like, this is a fictional story and does not depict any real person or event. We don't believe you.

Yeah, we started a podcast about it. It also starts in an art gallery and it made me miss New York. Yeah. Yeah. It starts in mingling wine. This episode opens hot with a cameo from Viva la diva herself. Luanne Dela set countess Luanne Dela set. Can you believe that our interests just intertwined so hard.

It's really wild. And she was wearing a silly hat too. I'm actually like, no, she's not, but I'm actually really surprised that more housewives have not done cameos on this. Like I feel like they get like Pat. No, not Pat. What's his name?

Pat, the guy from New York one. I have no idea. He's like iconic New York guy. He's always like doing little news clips. Other episodes we're watching have Tamron Hall, like all kinds of like New York, New York, New York, New York way. New York.

New York. New York. New York. New York. New York. New York much better New York. York, New York. New York.

New York. New York. New York. New York. New York. New York. Washington State. New York.

New York. New York. New York. New York's New York. She just had to play like sort of a pompous, like art person. And that kind of like works for her. So yeah, we started this gallery opening.

Lou Ann, like Waltz is in, like just yelling the name of the artist in the middle of a gallery, just Andreas, where are you? I'm like, who walks into an event like that? She brings him back back to like the behind the scenes of the art gallery to be like, I love this new piece you did. It's so beautiful and it's just drips of red going down a wall. And he's like, that's not my piece of art. That's real blood.

So dun dun. They, you know, have some. They should have an all musical episode of SVU. OK, I mean, that's definitely something you could pitch. I don't know how that would work. Daria did it. Why not? So the blood is coming from upstairs where like a body has been murdered, the body of Ellen Saislin.

She's the CFO of a company called Luscious Grape, which is like a high end alcohol distributor. And she's just lying there with her blood pooling down this vent that has now gone into the art gallery. The cause of death is an exsanguinated from a severed carotid. She also has anal trauma. There's no DNA and there's signs of a struggle. And this always reminds me of the John Mulaney joke.

And I'm mad at him so hard that he has the best SVU jokes that have ever been written and every episode, but it is like, you know, you can't swear on TV, but you can say anal trauma, not even before the credits. What the fuck? Oh, the credits are just getting started when they're talking about anal trauma. And so, yeah, they find out that the show downstairs is called dollars in death, the politics of blood.

So it's all just very coincidental. And the squad initially thinks that this is just like a date gone wrong. And that's how we piece out of the cold open. And so we go to the site of Luscious Grape. So you need to understand to understand this episode, you got to meet all the characters at the Luscious Grape company. OK, this high end liquor distributor, wine and alcohol distributor. So the first person should not fancy or sexy job, like of all the businesses.

It's just like a distributor. No, but when you work in wine and alcohol distribution, like you do like wine and dine big clients. Like, I do think it is kind of a cool, I don't know. I know people who work at like Diageo and like big alcohol companies. And you get to go to like a lot of parties and like do. And it sounds like a pretty fun job. I don't know. All right.

You could sell booze. Like this tastes great. Oh, no, I did always when I waitress get excited when the beer guys would come, you know, like, you want this beer sample. Here's some koozie. I did enjoy that. I think it's really the next natural step would be you were running an international company of alcohol distribution.

Too many spreadsheets. Yeah. You know, working on this with you, I'm like so impressed with your organization and all the tabs and the spreadsheets. And so I was, you know, hyping you up to a friend and she goes, yeah, we make spreadsheets. I work in an office. Why are you? Yeah, I have spreadsheets. And then someone else was like, yeah, tabs in a spreadsheet.

I do that too. Like no one is shocked. They've been doing it for decades. And I've been talking about it for two weeks nonstop, how there's multiple tabs in a spreadsheet. Never seen it before. But hey, I love your adoration of my spreadsheet. So you can keep it coming.

OK, so basically on the Luscious Grape website, there's this super fucking weird video. It's like a cult recruitment video, honestly. Like you first meet Annette Cole, who is the president CEO. Then you meet Ellen, who is the dead woman who is the CFO. And it's like we started this in our garage in Jersey City. I'm like, OK. And then what is this whole thing with starting companies and garages?

And we all have to give it round of applause. No one cares. Yeah, it's crazy. You had a garage in Jersey City. I lived in a one bedroom apartment in New York with one window. So you meet all the different characters at this place. I'm going to just break it down for you, who they all are. So there's kind of like a young douche named Justin. There's a young girl, like a baby spice named Corinne.

There's an old Australian dude named Donald. And then there's like a gay dude named Bruce. I would never just call somebody just the gay dude, but they literally do that in the episode like 10 times. Like it's his only identity is that he's a gay man. And his name is Bruce. And his name is Bruce. That's the gayest name on earth. So those are the main characters that we meet in this like insane recruitment video.

And all they talk about is how like much they love working there and how it's this like amazing workplace. And I'm like, you just know somebody thought something's fucked. No one talks about their workplace that way. Like you can be like, oh, it's great to work here. But they're like, this is a family. It's just too creepy. Yeah, you know, something's up from the internet.

If a company keeps saying we're family, that's not a good sign. Yeah. So they're lusciousgrape.net is their website. I guess lusciousgrape.com was taken by like a drag queen or something. They're also I need to point out to our producer. There is a co-producer on this show named Speedweed. We need to get that person for an interview. Just let's make a note like who is Speedweed? I always see their name in the credits. And I'm like, are you a man or a woman?

I need to know more about Speedweed. So a neighbor approaches Benson and Stabler tells them that Andreas, the artist is kind of a creep. That turns out to be sort of a dead end. He's like a douche, but he's not the guy that killed Ellen. He goes for hotter girls, basically. Like this is another episode where they keep acting like Ellen is the ugliest woman on the planet.

But she's actually just like a perfectly lovely looking person who's not a supermodel. And Andreas has continued to use Ellen's blood on an art piece, which is creepy. But he has an alibi, so he's not he's not like a suspect anymore. So then we get into meeting Annette Cole in person, who is the CEO and founder of the company. She's like Ellen was my best friend, the younger sister I never had. We had dinner the night before. Luscious Grape was our life, Jersey City, family, whatever.

It's like Red Flag Central, I think. I mean, just the way she's talking, like no one has, I don't know, such a perfect relationship with their coworker and business partner. But maybe I'm jaded. We also have to lie to the cops, because if you say one thing, it could be used against you. True, true, true. What if she was like, yeah, she was kind of lazy and then. Yeah, they're like, it's you.

Yeah, Amanda Knox, perfect example, said a couple of weird things and was in jail for like three years. OK, so Bruce kind of gives us an insight into Ellen. That's a little bit different, saying that she was a blast at parties. They call her a fruit fly. I don't think we're allowed to say that anymore. It's like there's a couple words for women that have a lot of gay male friends. And I don't think any of them really fly anymore, including fruit fly.

Fruit flies, probably the nicest. Probably the nicest, but I don't think that many gay guys like being called a fruit. Yeah. Yeah. This episode, they call him a fruit four times. Like it's very, I mean, what year is this episode from? It's I just have so many fruit tattoos that to me, I I it only don't make me joy. Yeah, I just like I would love to be fruity, but I understand, you know, yeah.

So Bruce reveals that they've gone to A.A. She's sober, so it appears she's been drinking the night of the murder. So that's a weird thing. Like yeah, they say that she gets drunk so she can fuck because no one wants to fuck her ugly face. Yeah, they act like she is deformed. So the cops get into Ellen's phone and then we get into like a serious tangent in this episode, so I'm just going to go into it really quickly

because it does waste a ton of time. But there's this tangent where Ellen has been buying leather goods at a website called My Leather Fantasy, not SNM. It's high end leather goods. The guy who owns it is named Juan Alvarez. He's been harassing her. So they find they go to find him. He gets shot by a man in the street who says he killed my Peggy

because he harassed this other man's wife Peggy until she had a heart attack because he thinks that harassing people will cause them to leave bad reviews online. And a bad review is just as good as a good review. So this is some kind of psychotic yelp conspiracy where like people are still going to go to your website because they have reviews that this man calls me in the middle of the night and screams at me. I think I would pass on My Leather Fantasy. He also has a great quote, quote of this episode for me.

And he goes, OK, so I harassed the bitch. Yeah. So that's great. Yeah. He's like, I didn't kill anyone. I just called an old woman with Alzheimer's at 3 a.m. and screamed at her about paying for her leather. So basically he's the like. Yes. He's any press. Good press.

Yeah. And he presses good press. Exactly. So once we get to the end of this tangent, he's got an alibi for Ellen's murder. So even though he was harassing her, he didn't do anything. Now we get the flip. The script is flipped a little bit. Warner comes in, our girl, Tamara Tooney, not to me, the Luggage Brand. And she's saying it might not be murder. She's ruling the manner of death as undetermined.

And we also discover, which I feel like you and I were just talking about this the other day, that Ellen has Trico Tillomania, which is when you pull your hair out. Yeah. I have a friend who does that. Yeah. Oh, no, I was talking about it with my husband because in a episode of Pen 15, one of the girls pulled out a piece of her hair. I thought maybe they were going to go into a Trico Tillomania plot, but it was not that. I'm just impressed that you can say it fully. I mean, it's it's actually pretty phonetic, but yeah.

There's also another fun quote. Yeah. Benson goes and got anal trauma on the way down. Oh, yeah. I don't remember, but I have it in all big letters. Right. Like they're basically acting like it's possible that she just fell against this vase because she was so drunk and the big chunk of glass like severed her carotid artery. Oh my God. Wait, is the carotid artery in your butthole?

No, it's in your neck. That's where the, that's where the cut was. But yeah, that's why Benson's saying she's like, what? And then she somehow got anal trauma like it during the fall. Like she's like not buying that this was an accident. Okay. So everyone. Yeah. You guys are such good friends that she said, isn't it your butthole? And you didn't even comment on that. Just went, no, it's in the neck.

And we're so loving towards her. Wait, your carotid artery being in your butthole is really funny. Okay. So everyone at luscious grape is stonewalling in like a very creepy way. Like they're all saying the same words. They're all saying like her death is a major loss to our company. Like they're all, it's very culty. They've been told instructed what to say. And then Benson's like, if you guys are a family, why didn't you know that your best friend and sister's ripping hair out of her

head? Yeah. Mental illness is not a game. No. So get help. Someone breaks into Ellen's loft. The cops go over, they find immediately, they find the one thing that the person that broken was looking for, which is this little panda flash drive. The flash drive has tons of videos on it. Twist with Annette, the CEO, like completely terrorizing her employees.

Like in a way that's not just like, Hey guys, we need to up productivity today. You guys messed up last week. It's like, well, that's not even kind of menacing. No, yeah, I know. I'm just saying a boss. Yeah, you're right. It's okay. You do yours. Okay. My mean boss that's not criminal would be like, are you stupid? I asked for that an hour ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So we're like, it's Miranda Priestly.

It's kind of like the level I think of a legal stupid Miranda Priestly would go. I demand excellence. Bring 50 skirts to the appointment today. Yeah. Don't ask me another question. Yeah. I don't have time for your bullshit. Yeah. So she's calling. She's like making homophobic slurs. She's terrorizing them. She slapped Ellen across the face. Okay. So they confronted that with the videos.

It's 20 films of her being a complete psycho. The waiter at from the dinner the night before says that she was also screaming at Ellen the night before she was murdered. And that is just like denying pretending to cry. It's like crazy how she almost, she offers like no excuse. She's like, this is out of context. It's like, there's no context. We're slapping your employee across the face. It's like a good thing. Yeah.

And then I see goes the queen of means on a tear queen of mean. So Bruce, we're, so as they go check in with all the different people that are in the little luscious grape cast list. So Bruce, the gay guy has a $200,000 car. Corinne, the young girl is in therapy. I don't know why that is considered something lavish, but I guess it's like they think something's going on with her. Justin, the young douche has this really nice house with like multiple levels,

which in New York is a staircase to New York is weird and like very, that's a status symbol. He lives with his mother and we hear his mother yelling down, Justin mother needs her juice. And it's like really what's going on. His mother is a disabled former opera singer. Okay. Keep that in mind for later. So Huang tells them that tells the squad that all these people have Stockholm syndrome. Like they've all bonded to this woman emotionally to prevent

being abused by her, which kind of makes sense. And they find out also that this company is about to be sold for $500 million. We get a morning Joe segment. Okay. So the tapes get leaked to the media because Ellen sent them before she died. She sent them to the media. Like I can't handle this anymore. Probably right after the dinner she had with Annette where Annette was yelling at her and through a glass at her, I think. So we get to this mob scene where all these people are attacking Annette.

It's like honestly iconic. Like she looks amazing. She's got dark sunglasses on like probably something with like a fur collar. I don't really remember a like a head scarf over her head and she's like, and they're like construction workers are yelling suck it bitch at her. Look, I don't condone calling women a bitch in this way, but it honestly like really makes me giggle in this context. You need to watch the episode.

She's like, I'm going to sue the NYPD for emotional distress. And she's just like out of my way. It's just kind of a fun scene. It reminds me of Lila. Yeah, it's Cruella. It's sunset boulevard. Like it's just very. Yeah, John Collins.

Yes, very John Collins. 51%. Yeah. So all this press comes out the half a billion dollar offer is rescinded. The press is completely savaging Annette. Annette calls a press conference. She's weepy. She's apologizing.

She's like, I'm so sorry to everyone. And then she literally flips the switch tells everybody totally pulls up. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Doesn't tell anyone they're cool. Fuck you. Fuck you.

And then kills herself in at this press conference in front of everybody. So it's like a with a gun. Yeah. With a gun. Sorry. Your brain's out. Shocking, it's very shocking. I don't know.

No one got ideas from this episode. No, very shocking. So Huang said it's like kind of classic. She like fanged contrition to draw people in, but then traumatizes them. So it's like what you get when you mix a sociopath and a narcissist, a ticking time bomb. That's what Huang says. So Annette leaves every penny in her will to her dog. Nothing goes to her quote unquote family members at Luscious Grape.

And then Bruce gets nailed in a hit and run. We essentially find out that all the luscious grape employees are turning on one another because they were all holding on just until this $500 million sale, so they could like be rich. And they all thought that each other was the one that killed Ellen

and like jeopardized the whole thing. So Baby Spice is the one that hits Bruce with her grandfather's car because she thinks Bruce is the one that killed Ellen. And Bruce is like, I didn't do it. She was dead when I got to her house. So then they basically kind of figure out, old Australian guys, the one who did the break-in,

they all had their own little crimes. The last person left is Justin, the douche who lives with his mom. So they get to his house and Warner shows up and we figure out that the reason Ellen was drunk is because someone got her drunk through her butthole. See your butthole, you were right about something with the butthole.

Yeah, and this is why we watch SVU for our last second, a last second butt chugging reference. And the thing is it's not like someone or the medical examiner told Benson like, hey, by the way, something with the alcohol, she's just like, the opera singer, the throat, it's a butthole, like she just like, I love detective work like that where she pieces together.

Cause what was it? Her blood alcohol was low like, how did they know she didn't drink it? Because there was no alcohol in her stomach. So there was no alcohol in our actual stomach, but she had a blood alcohol of 1.6, which is way over the limit. So she, they basically say,

oh yeah, it's an old alcoholics trick to put alcohol, like up through your anus or girls do it with tampons. I had heard of girls doing it with tampons. I've never tried it. I like to just get drunk the old fashioned way. But so basically Benson realizes that they have to go to Justin, okay? And we kind of figure this out as we go.

At the end, Justin admits that he came on to Ellen. She rejected him, he tried again. She slapped him, he pushed her. She fell into the vase and saw the, and then the glass was in her neck. So that actually was an accident. And he's like, there was so much blood. So then he put the alcohol up her butt to make it seem

like she was drunk and had this accident, right? And then the cops basically get it out of him that he grew up learning how to do this trick because his mother is an alcoholic opera singer who couldn't damage her vocal cords. And so that's how he would help his mom get drunk is like pudding. That's why the entire episode

when we've gone to Justin's house, the mom keeps going, mother needs her juice. It's like her special juice. Oh, so he's butt chugging his mom. He's been helping, he's been butt chugging his mom. Oh my God. And as he's getting carried away by the cops, the cops don't even care about this old woman.

She's just left screaming like, Justin, Justin. And like the cops are like, bye, bitch. And he goes, mother's very clever. She taught me a lot of things and you're like, what else? And the end is very Willy Loman where it's like they all wanted money. They all try and they get nothing. Yeah, yeah.

Very Willy Wonka. You get nothing. You stole fizzy lifting drinks. You let your boss slap you across the face. You get nothing. How much money would you work at a, like let's say you were treated like this at a job, slapped in the face, insulted.

What would be the paycheck you'd need for slaps? Well, I mean, millions. Okay. I can't, I don't know. So for five million a year, you'd be okay with your boss pulling your hair and slapping you once a week. 10.

10 million. 10 million to get slapped once a week. Oh, it's a once a week slap? Yeah. Yeah, I guess you'd get used to it. Yeah. That sounds terrible. All right.

All right, let's move on. I love this episode though. It's got so much. It's just like a, it's got twists and turns and- Butt chugs, a housewife. Yeah. Leather fantasies. Who knew that we were gonna start

with gay slurs from the past? Yeah. A baby spice reference just from you. A grandpa, the name Peggy, our friend's mom's name Peggy. We like that. Yeah. That was a good episode.

Well, we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna get into the actual scenario that this is based on. This is not even a full-time, like, there was a little tax evasion, but this character is based on a New York legend, Leona Hemsley.

And I watched an ID channel, but I didn't know what it was. I was like, I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was.

I don't know what it was. I don't know what it was. I watched an ID channel, Barbara Investigates. Barbara Walters is one of my heroes. And so I was really happy to see their interview. And this interview took place, like right before she was going to jail. So she was not happy.

She was pissed. And she kept playing like, I'm the good person. I've done nothing wrong. So it was like, really lovely while walking around her mansion. So loved that. So who Leona is.

She was a billionaire hotel maven. And her biggest rival was Donald Trump, which you've got me on Leona Helmsley's side immediately. And you know, what's crazy who brought Leona down was Rudy Giuliani. Oh my God, which now it's all connected. Like were they friends even back then in the 80s?

Were they always conniving to this evil, you know, white supremacist lunacy? I don't, I just don't know what it is. So that's just interesting how this is all happening. It was the 80s greed was good, baby. She was known for lavish parties, celebrities and she never had to pay for her parties

cause they were in her hotels. Yeah. Like Elizabeth Taylor would party, Michael Jackson, like in the 80s, the Hemsley's were the fucking party billionaires of New York. I just want to say really quick that my family has stayed at the Hemsley sandcastle

in Sarasota, Florida. And it's not that nice. You know, this is the 80s. I bet they have. We stayed there in the 2000s and it was not great. Yeah. That's like most of Vegas. It's like, this used to be nice, so fucking gross.

The 80s were pretty garish, is that a word? Okay. So she, I'll just give you some stats though. 50,000 apartments, they owned. Her and her husband, 4,500 hotel rooms and seven million square feet of office space. Whoa.

Yeah. And they lived on the top floor of their most grand hotel, the Park Lane Hotel. She didn't grow up rich. She was a, you know, 1920s daughter Jew immigrants from Lithuania, poor dad made hats. She dropped out of high school at 16, married and divorced twice, mother by 20.

So, you know, nothing too wild. But then she became a receptionist at a real estate firm within a few months was a broker and within a few years top realtor. She was a closer baby. Wow. Yeah. Immigrants know how to work hard.

And so when she met her husband, she was older and she was 40 and she was worth a million dollars. And I just feel like as a single chick, single mom in New York being worth a million dollars is impressive. In the 80s, yeah. It's super impressive.

And big fun thing, Harry was married. So she met this dude and she's like, we're in love. And he left his Quaker wife in a second for this party bitch. Cause he wanted to live a fun life and his other wife, like they didn't drink, no coffee, just like very religious losers. And he also started out poor. He would collect rent for tenements.

And then he crushed it during the depression because the banks needed someone to manage all these buildings. And so he started managing buildings for banks during the depression. OK. And so that's how he made money. And he found investors and yeah. So he and he became a real estate person.

I don't really know. They're like this real estate power couple then when they get together. Yeah. And he like, they really did love each other. It seems like I don't think it was just for money. I mean, maybe it was, but he was excited to finally live this like gold, fancy, fun lifestyle

after like living with his wife for 40 years who are they were married for 34 years and Leona was more fun. Yeah. You know, was there a big age difference? No, I don't think I don't know. OK. Good question. But I don't know.

I just feel like if he was managing buildings like the depression, he's probably a little older than Leona. Yeah. And he died before her. Yeah. So you're right. Also, he did. OK.

So in 1961, he had his dreams come true and he bought the Empire State Building. So he owned the Empire State Building. I try to see who owns it now and it's just a giant trust. And I was like, I can't, I cannot. I can't weed through this. I can't weed through all these people who own it. But the Empire, he owned the Empire State Building,

but he didn't treat it like a jewel. And that's the thing. Like he wanted, he grew up poor. And when you're poor, I think it fucks up your brain because like he reduced the maintenance crew and the cleaning. Yeah, the Empire State Building in the 80s. I feel like the first time I went there was in the 80s or the 90s and it was not nice.

It was gross. Yeah. He just didn't let it. He just had that hold your money type vibe. And so he didn't even do anything fun, whatever. So they had money. They married. And she just revolutionized his life through gold on everything

and bought all these luxury hotels. Him, her and Trump are fighting. Yeah, it's weird that they're fighting because they're like twin people. They're like the same. Well, that's why they don't like each other. Narcissists don't want another narcissist around. And then and they know their tricks.

So and we talked about this before we recorded. When is a woman an actual like bitch, evil person? Or is she just like a Miranda Priestly and really good at her job and being judged unfairly and like men want a mommy to baby them and not a boss? Right. So it's like, was she evil or not? You are asking.

This bitch is crazy. Yeah, she's firing people. She would fire people on the spot. Someone would be at the elevator. She would be like, you're fired. Like she loved to fire people. She was a micro manager. And her nickname was the Queen of Mean,

yeah, which they say in this episode. And so what happened was she joined with this advertising company and they were like, this is what we're going to do. And no one's ever done this before. They're like, you're the queen of your castle and we're going to put you in the commercials and you are the queen at the hotels. And if people come to these hotels,

they get to hang out with the fucking queen. And then she fired the person who made the advertising campaign. So that's what happened. But yeah, she was an iron fist. Like she wanted shit to be perfect. And why not? She, you know, her, her name's on it.

Yeah. So she loved firing people. She was suspicious of everyone, suspicious of her son. Everyone's stealing stuff. And you're asking, is she evil or is she just a tough boss? OK, so her son died about 42. She turned on her daughter-in-law, gave her the bill for the funeral

and to move the body from New York to Florida and evicted her and her grandchild from the Hemsley property. Wow. Yeah. She's like, that's despicable. And she was cheap and just fought with people, like haggled constantly, even though she had all this money. And this is her downfall.

She sounds like she could be president except that she's a woman. That is what's upsetting. I'd rather Leona be the president. At least she had a sense of humor, you know, like. At least she had diamond, like dressed well, you know what I mean? Not a boxy suit. Like it is crazy to have these two despicable lunatics

from the 80s and one is the leader of our country right now. It is or hopefully not, you know, we'll see when this airs. But anyway, so that this is her downfall and what she got in trouble for. She bought a mansion in Connecticut in 1983. You're from Connecticut. She bought it for $11 million and she wanted to renovate. And at the time, her renovations seem crazy. But now I'm like, this bitch was on fire.

She wanted speakers in the bushes so she can listen to music and play tennis seems not out of line at all. Who doesn't want to like hit a couple of balls around with eye of the tiger playing? Come on. Yeah. And she wanted a marble dance floor on top of the pool. Again, it seems. That's true. I it's just crazy how much house renovation standards have changed from the 80s till now,

because I'm like, this doesn't seem crazy. Yeah. But she wanted to save money. And just like our 45th president, she decided not to pay any of her contractors and charged everything to the business, which is illegal. Yeah. So if Rudy was on her side and not his, maybe she would be in charge of our country. Like they're they're the same.

So she didn't pay anyone. So they got an anonymous tip to a New York Post reporter. He got a call and said, Leona is a crook. And do you want to win a Pulitzer Prize? Whoa. And that's all he got. So that's like spicy. I love that. So he agreed to this reporter agreed to meet someone in Manhattan. He got these files, started calling people

and started figuring shit out. And then the US attorney, Giuliani, started to investigate from the New York Post article. So New York Post posted this article on all of her schemings and how she's not paying people and that she's a crook. Giuliani starts investigating and he says, usually it's really, really hard to get witnesses to talk. He said people were volunteering everywhere

because they hated her so much. So they just sat back and people like dozens of people were just calling and calling, being like, she didn't pay me here. She did this, she did that. She's this, like she wasn't able to successfully Stockholm syndrome them all with the promises of millions of dollars like in this episode. But no, no luscious grapes. No luscious. Nice to anybody.

So the hatred was so huge for her. And she abused so many people that April 14th, 1988, they announced an indictment of Leona Hemsley and 35 counts of tax evasion, false records that showed personal as business expenses. I do this too, but that's because I'm unorganized. So I am really scared that one day I don't have enough money, but I definitely just put everything in my bag.

I just, yeah. No, at the end of my account, so he's like, this isn't a business. What are you doing? I'm like, I just am confused. But what sucks? And I am on her side here. It says she only didn't pay four million dollars in taxes. But she has in total paid six hundred million dollars in taxes.

So it's like a small percentage of what she was avoiding. So she's pissed. She's like, oh, everyone thinks I don't pay taxes. I've paid six hundred million in taxes. So another reason she's above Trump is that she'll show her tax returns. Yes. Yeah. But so four million, she says that she's brought a blank check to the government. I don't know how you do this.

And I said, here's four million here. We'll pay it. We don't care. And they didn't. They still wanted her to go to jail. Yeah. So she and guess who her lawyer is? Alan Dershowitz. Yeah. Alan Dershowitz is in here. And he's like, it's a misdemeanor. Chill. Relax. What are you doing? Like she.

But I'm going to get ahead of myself because it's too funny. She didn't pay him. She never paid. She never paid Dershowitz. She was pissed and didn't pay him. So I love that. But he was like, whatever. Like I don't understand why he's being why this is happening. It's not that big of a deal.

And a housekeeper overheard Leona Hemsley saying, we don't pay taxes. Only little people pay taxes. Oh, yeah. That's a famous quote of hers. Yeah. Yeah. So the housekeeper heard her say that. And also her husband, Harry, was like old and sick and couldn't stand trial. So it was all it was all her. Oh, I didn't even realize he was still alone. He she was still alive at this point.

Yeah. And eating. Yeah. Harry was old and sick and got off the ticket. So only she stood trial. And then the media just came out. And so so yeah, so go on. So what did she get for a sentence? But the thing is, so Trump has called her a disgrace to humanity, which is takes one to no one. Yeah. And then the mayor called her a wicked witch.

Well, that's the thing. So they also said she wasn't able to get a fair trial because the press was. Yeah, it's not in New York City when everybody. I mean, she was just such a lot of her loving to hate her. Yeah. She was just like, I was saying she when I grew up, Leona Hemsley was like a punchline. Like you just I knew who she was and I was like eight or nine. You know what I mean?

Like I just knew what was up that she was some kind of like mean lady. Yeah. And you. Yeah. You grew up on the East Coast because I also was foreign. I don't really remember this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. East Coast, like not that far from New York. Also, I'm from Connecticut. So she was I don't know where she bought this house,

but it's probably near me where I grew up. Her lawyer revealed her age in court and she was pissed. And she said, I have a temper. I have a temper, but I won't say it's terrible. So I love that. August 30th day before my birthday, 89, she was found guilty of 33 counts of tax evasion and sentenced to four years in prison. But the he got Dershowitz got the state to drop their charges,

just not federal charges. And so she did. And that's why she refused to pay him. And Dershowitz is talking about how he's poor and he still uses tea bags three or four times. Yeah, but also like just being her lawyer, probably got him so much business. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I was like a very sensational trial. I remember. Yeah. I just hate when rich people are like, oh, but I still reuse my tea bag. And it's like, yeah, but you still hire a mate. You know what I mean? It's like you have these symbolic poor behaviors, but you don't actually live like a poor person. You're trying to relate to us and it's just not working.

I'm sorry. And you're not a bad person if you use a tea bag once. Like, what do you shut up? I'm like, on the West Side three bedroom is filled with old tea bags. And she said she does community service, but I don't know. Who knows? She didn't want to go to jail because she's like, Harry needs me. He can't live without me, but no one fucking cared.

So she served 18 months in jail and two months house arrest. 18 months in jail at like a white collar, probably. Yeah, like a Martha Stewart. Well, they said that she tried to turn the prison into the Homsley mansion and she hired other inmates to make her bed and sort mail and do laundry. Oh, my God. From jail, she ordered a birthday cake for Harry

from the four seasons while she was in prison. So I got to love that. Ninety seven Harry died and she started to sell off parts of the real estate empire. And she went up, she went out with like younger men here and there. Yeah. But she never married again. Her found love again, but she loved her dog. Yeah. Her dog's name was Trouble.

Trouble. Trouble. She loved trouble. And then Cindy Adams is in this episode of I.D. Investigates with Barbara Walters and Cindy Adams and her were best friends. Cindy Adams is a columnist, right? Yeah. So they were really good friends. And Cindy also stopped talking to Leona because she invited Mrs. Adams to stay in her Palm Beach house

and then had federal marshals kick her mother and her out of the house. OK, why? Just to do it. All right, I'm moving the page. OK, so, you know, and there are some good things she wanted to push. Yeah, and 11 she walked to a firehouse, gave him five million dollars. She gave five million dollars to her. So she still had a ton of money when she got out of jail. It wasn't like it ruined her.

Well, she still owned all of the property. Like four million is not enough to like repossess things. Right. So, yeah, she just sold off a bunch of stuff and had time. So she got charitable at nine eleven. Yeah, nine eleven brought the best out on her and well, that's what's crazy. Nine eleven happens in this evil bitch gives five million dollars. And our president celebrated that he had the tallest building in New York now when nine eleven happened.

So, you know, who's more evil? I mean, you're right about like maybe she is an evil bitch, but like how we view evil bitches towards evil bastards is not fair. Yeah, like he is our president. He's done worse crap, whatever. I can't even keep talking about it. Two thousand seven, she died of heart failure at eighty seven years old. And she gave most of her five billion,

billion with a B dollars to a charitable trust. She gave her two grandkids five million each. Her other two grandkids got nothing. Ah, oh my god. Five million out of a billion, though, is like feels like nothing. But I think that's nice. But I think Bill Gates is doing something like that, too. Oh, you're only getting ten million and go live your life.

And like, hopefully you can make that work. I always heard she left the money to her dog. So she left twelve million dollars to her dog trouble. OK. And the news that sort of it got sensationalized. And that's the only way I knew of her when I said I didn't really know of her as a child was the woman that gave all her money to her dog. Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't all her money. Did she give more to the dog than both?

Then the grandchildren. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But nobody wanted to take care of trouble because she was a bitch, too. Trouble bit everyone and it bit. Oh, and it would shit. It would shit. Wouldn't it shit? I feel like I read somewhere that it would like shit inside and she would just make people pick it up. Oh, I'm sure. And but it had a security guard because I had too many death threats. New York is the greatest city in the world.

They're going to kill a dog that has too much money. Trouble died in 2011 at 12 years old. And it's it wanted it. She wanted the dog to be buried with her. They didn't allow it. And then Leona has a three million dollar trust to keep her mausoleum clean because she hates dust. Wow. And so that's the story of Leona Hemsley.

I'm glad she didn't commit suicide in front of us. Yeah. Well, speaking of that, I just want to really quickly touch on that part of the of the episode. That part of the episode, the public suicide, like on camera suicide, is based on a politician from Pennsylvania named R. Bud Dwyer. I didn't know this. Yes. And he in 1987, he was he was like a state senator in Pennsylvania and a state treasurer.

He was accused of like, you know, misappropriating funds and he was going to lose his job and his family was going to lose their pension, like any rights they had to like money that they would they would get upon his death. So he called a press conference the same way as the character in the show. But in his press conference, he said he gave letters out to each of his children and to his wife and kept saying like, I'm sorry for what I'm about to do. It was like anyone with a brain would have been like something

fucked up is about to happen. And he just kept saying, I'm sorry. Like, and if this is going to bother you or traumatize you, if you have a weak stomach, you should leave now. Like he said stuff like that to people like you should just kept sitting and people just kept sitting. And then it wasn't until he pulled a gun out of a vanilla envelope that people were like, oh, wait a minute.

Well, he literally in his speech said, thank you to my wife. I love you for making my life so happy. Goodbye to all of you. Please make sure the sacrifice of my life is not in vain. And still no one like rushed him or did anything until he pulled out the gun. And then he, yeah, he shot himself and his family ended up getting a one point two million dollar payout, which they never would have gotten if he had lived. So I think he did it. That's why he did it. That's so sad that he thought that one point two million dollars

would be better for his family than him. Yeah. That's really sad. And he maintained his innocence the whole time, which is also crazy. No, you don't do that. You don't do a public suicide. He said that he was like, if I'm going, if they're going to lose everything, I don't know, but he maintained his innocence and said it wasn't like. So this is what I have to say.

How do we know about Leona giving money to a dog? But we don't know about, I don't know about this guy publicly killing himself in front of press that sat there doing nothing as he handed good buy notes to his family. Maybe it was just because it was like Pennsylvania and like it wasn't a like a glamorous location. I love the 80s on VH. I've never seen it once. And in the 80s, this isn't as related because it wasn't at a press conference, but in the 80s, a woman named Christine Chubbock in Sarasota, Florida,

where the Helmsley Zinn Castle is, she killed herself on air. But that was like a depression thing. And she was, I think she was kind of, I think we could say the senator was depressed too. Yes. But she was trying to make a statement, I think. And I saw a movie about that with Rebecca Hall. It was really interesting. Anyway, thank you for telling us all about Leona, the queen of Maine. Thanks for telling us about public suicide.

And she is a Leona, Leona Hemsley is a iconic New York character. I think if I got a Pomeranian, I would name it Leona in honor of her or Trouble. I love that. Trouble just reminds me of that Chevy Chase. Nothing but Trouble, a classic, classic, classic. Our first guest today is a renowned character actress, a star of stage and screen and Hollywood royalty, honestly, if you look into her, you've seen her on Grey's Anatomy, on Scandal and on the best comedy of all time, Veep.

We are so pumped to talk to Annette Cole, the bully of Luscious Grey herself, Kate Burton. So this SBU episode bully is out of control. You're amazing in it. Yeah, it's iconic. And we just want to know when you saw the script and read that you're going to, you know, publicly commit suicide and slap people and call them fruits. Like, how did you feel?

Well, here's the thing. I mean, you know, as a New York actor, as you know, SBU, law and order, the mother ship and criminal intent. I mean, honestly, that, you know, you, I mean, I can honestly tell you, and I've been doing this for almost 40 years, and those shows, those three shows are like annuities. I mean, you know, and for a New York actor to be in those shows, I was in the mother ship five times and playing two different characters.

And then I did criminal intent the second episode and I had never done SBU. So when they present, I mean, and I was a hand at the script, they, they offered it to me and they said, we want you to do SBU. And I was like, the trifecta, I've done, no, I will have done them all. And that is a big thing for a New York actor. So, um, and SBU, I mean, SBU is unbelievable. I, you know, to be honest, I don't watch SBU as much as I do the mother ship because it's a little too gritty for me.

Sometimes all of the mother ship gets very gritty towards, towards the end. Um, but sometimes I'm like, Oh God. SBU has more living victims. So you see special victims unit. Well, exactly. It's not about murder. It's about sexual assault. It's about all this, you know, and so, you know, and these are things we watch

right before we go to sleep at night. So I don't generally watch SBU before I go to sleep at night. Having said that, um, yeah. So bully was, you know, I, for some, I'm really nice lady. I, you know, I have two kids. I'm, you know, I'm very happily married. I play so many of these mad women. Oh, you do?

I play, oh my God. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, Ellis Gray on Grace, Sally Langston on Scandal, Sally Langston, particularly, um, you know, they're crazy late. I mean, they're, they're, I play crazy mega ladies. Those are, that's my thing. Crazy mega ladies who kill people. But are they usually ones that start out sort of sweet?

Like, cause at the beginning, you're like, Oh, this woman seems so nice woman, I know she's, she's got a problem. But listen, the thing about bully that was so incredible was just, you know, getting to, you know, commit suicide in front of people. That's always fun. You know, and that's the thing is that, you know, I think that what, what law and order or what the casting directors and what Dick Wolf, you know, always did so incredibly is, you know, they mined their New York actors.

They had this plethora, they have still, uh, this plethora of New York acting talent and, you know, those early years of the mothership were like, nobody had seen New York, like so gritty and true and real. And, and it was so, I mean, he really did break the mold, Dick Wolf. So, you know, then, you know, continues on and here's, and here's SVU. And I think SVU staying power, um, is that it's, you know, ripped from the headlines literally, um, and I think also Mariska Harkatay. I mean, I think she is so extraordinarily amazing as that, as that woman.

And she, you know, to watch this great female protagonist guide us through these terrible stories. Oh my God. Yeah. You know, and I have a tendency to say yes to everything. So that's sometimes not a good thing, but I will tell you, like I did doing, when you do anything to do with law and order, you always know, even if it's the grittiest stuff in the world, it's still going to be classy.

Another thing that was so great about that character. And I don't know if you had any say in air collaboration was the wardrobe. The hair and makeup was so good. Well, wardrobe on law and orders in general are all, I mean, it's, they have the bat, well, you know, they have costume designers that have experience in theater, in film, because, you know, New York is a one, you know, everything happens in New York, you know, if in terms of all the different media. Yeah.

Um, and so, you know, uh, the costume, you know, I've always had him in costumes. My only sadness is that I haven't been able to keep any of them because they need to keep them there for other guest stars to come in and be glamorous. Yeah, I'm so, you know, that's with that point in bully, where you're trying to push through the crowd. That's all like the mob that's coming after you and you're wearing like dark glasses and like a sort of a hooded scarf.

And you're like, out of my way. Like it's like, just it's class. What can I say? You know, this podcast, we sort of talk about the episode and the true situation or crime that it was based on. So this episode, um, what the, your character, I think was loosely probably based on Leona Helmsley. Oh, you know, I didn't even totally know.

Yeah. Okay. So I love that you know that you're telling me this years later. She was this, you know, incredibly mean employee. Oh, please. And do you remember those advertisements to your dog? Your character left everything to her dog. So it's like very similar.

Please, you have such memories of this episode. Thank you for reminding me. Yes. Well, you know, those advertisements that you used to see in your times with like the queen is in her palace. Yes. You know, there she be Leona Helmsley. I mean, Leona Helmsley is like a character out of a cartoon.

I mean, you can't even make stuff up. It also was nice to hear that you're probably amazing to work with considering Shonda keeps using you and the law and order world keeps using you and that's like pretty amazing. Yeah, thank you. Well, I do love working with all those folks. I mean, look, you know, the key is heart, one of the hardest things about being an actor and especially of my age group is that you, you know,

we came from sort of one of the thrills for me, to be honest, is I really thought by mid 40s, I'd be done. I mean, I really thought, you know, when I was first coming out of Yale, I was 24, you know, I thought, okay, well, I kind of got 20 years and here we are and I'm 63. Yeah. And the reality is, thank you. And the reality is, is that I'm still working.

My great friends, Deborah Monk and Christine Nielsen, who are even a little bit older than me, they're constantly working. And so the notion of there are interesting roles for women who are older. How great is that? That's amazing. You know, and I moved to LA when I was 49 and I always say what my age is because I'm like, why not? And I have had the most interesting parts, you know, Ella, I came with,

I arrived with Ellis Gray, Sally Langston, Senator Barbara Hallow's on Veep, you know, Anne Marie. I can't believe that just hit me. That's like our favorite. I mean, I can't. The favorite. That's our favorite show. I mean, you know, I don't get on television.

Well, she's a genius. And so is Armando Unucci. So, and so is every single person on that show. I'd rather say it's perfectly cast every and every detail of every character. Tony Hale. I mean, funny. I mean, Tony Hale. Tony Hale.

I mean, even in the read through for the pilot, Tony Hale. I remember just sitting at the table just like, you know, hold me back. I mean, and, you know, but the thing is, is that I'm so, I feel so blessed that I've gotten to play all these different, really interesting parts. So since you are, um, have been in all the law and order worlds, we were wondering if you needed the help of detectives, which, which detectives would you go to original criminal intent or SVU?

Oh, I have to say, well, Mariska Hargit is pretty hard to beat. Yeah. So I would, I would, if I could combine them, I would go to Mariska Hargit and Christopher notes. Yeah. I don't know if this is appropriate to ask or not, but we just, if you have an Elizabeth Taylor tale or a little snippet. What was it like being Elizabeth Taylor's stepdaughter?

You're asking me this with two minutes to spare. She was a dream. I love her so much. I mean, I love her personally. We always got along great. She was always incredibly dear and sweet and just really great. I mean, incredible sense of humor. She was amazing.

And I mean, you know, honestly, you know, I mean, I, one of the sort of, I actually told the story a few times, but, um, you know, she had these jewels that she really, really loved. And, uh, I mean, they were very fancy jewels and one of them, my favorite thing that she ever had, there were a couple of things, but one of them was this pearl. It was a pearl, beautiful pearl, sort of a teardrop shape, but a huge, like this size teardrop, very large.

Wow. And it was actually an unbelievable, um, had an unbelievable history because you can see this pearl in the Holbein portrait of Mary, Bloody Mary, Mary Tudor, who is the daughter of Henry VIII, who became the first of his children to sit on the throne of, uh, England. You see it in the picture. It's in the portrait. Oh my gosh. So that's how old this pearl is. Anyway, so the pearl had gotten missing.

Couldn't find the pearl. And everybody was running around the house looking for the pearl and she had washed, she'd like to wash her jewels and baby ship. So she'd washed the pearl and somehow the pearl, like, I don't, do you know, I mean, this is the madness sitting on the side of the sink, sitting in a dish. Who the hell knows? Somehow the dog got hold of the pearl and we're running around the dog and the dog is sitting in the middle of the room,

like just chewing on something. Somehow somebody stopped and went, wait a minute and looked down at this little fluffy dog, so cute, going like chewing and it had the pearl. Well, thank you so much for taking the time out of your, um, schedule because I know you seem very busy. You know, you are so welcome. That was thrilling. Oh my God.

I'm like buzzed from talking to Kate Burton. Yeah, she loves acting. She's good at it. She's been in everything you've ever watched. Like, I don't think anyone can say they've never seen this woman on their screen. I can't believe we forgot. I mean, I must have just zipped over that in her IMDB or something.

I don't know how I miss that, but like iconic. What a career and that she's been in all the long order universes and she loves Mariska as much as we love Mariska. Yeah. Yeah. So it's nice to know that even if you're a stepmoms, Elizabeth Taylor, you will be blinded by Mariska. Yeah.

Today's charm beauty work ethic. She wants to call Mariska in the event of a problem. Yes. That's her decision. And that is the right one. Yeah. So postmortem. Okay.

Let's do, let's break it down. I mean, what do we learn from bully? Luscious grape. Don't let your boss slap you. Take him to court. Right. Have a lawsuit. Tape stuff.

Actually, we learn if you're getting abused at work. Tape it. Record it. Yeah. Record it. Yeah. Don't end up dead. Right.

But record it. Get a good lawyer. Yeah. I have a friend who actually just had a very high pro file lawsuit against like a creepo, like billionaire boss. And she recorded stuff. And that's, I think, how she eventually brought him down. Yeah.

You gots to record. So record before you quit and press charges. Yeah. Don't, I don't, don't pour alcohol in your butt. Don't butt chug. Don't butt chug even if you're trying to, even if you're trying to get your opera singer mom drunk, like put her in a home, I think.

There's got to be an edible in a fine, another addiction. There's got to be another way. So yeah, don't butt chug. Also, don't trust your coworker. They're going to rat you out. Also, there's cameras everywhere. Don't steal your grandfather's car. Yeah.

And try to run over one of your coworkers. I think those are all the lessons. I mean, I was going to say, if you want to commit suicide, do it with a crowd, but that's, don't say that. Don't do that. Don't say that. None of that. Yeah.

This was a good one. This was a great episode, a great interview. I mean, the crime is just Leona. Do yourself a favor and look more into Leona Helmsley. She's a true, like Kate said, like a comic book character, like comic book villain. Yeah. Her tune, I guess she said.

I guess we also learned don't make villains like that, the president. I don't know if we learned that just from this episode, but. I mean, I stand with her just because she was mortal enemies with Donald Trump. Also, I'd like to say, if there's a press conference and someone is reading suicide notes and apologizing to their family, stop.

Go for that. Go for that. Grab the gun. Don't just wait it out as they're fully confessing what's about to happen. Yes. So I think, you know, that's, yeah. If you see someone that's on the, on the brink, maybe help them

out. Don't just watch for a story. Yeah. And is Lesha's grape a thing? I don't know. No. Don't work somewhere where people think that, like, they say that your family.

Yeah. Don't let. Yeah. Pay your taxes, babies. Pay your taxes. And don't leave all your money to your dog. That's honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Not all.

She only left 12 million. All right. Lisa. More than her kids. 10 million. The dog has like a 10 year life expectancy after your death, probably. What then happens to the money?

Who does the dog bequeath the money to? The dog's eating wagyu. Is that how you say it? Yeah. Wagyu beef every day. No. Yeah. Pay your taxes.

Rachel Ray dog food. What's the problem? Doesn't Rachel Ray have a dog food? Yeah. Which is weird. Someone has a joke about this. That's why I looked at you so weird because the joke is like you're a chef and you're coming out with dog food.

What does that say about you? I think it was Matteo. Anyone cares about Rachel Ray and Matteo? I think it is too. Follow Matteo Lane on Instagram. He sings opera and he actually doesn't really drink. I don't think he butt shucks though. We got to talk to him.

Matteo, you got to come on the pod. Okay. So we are here as always inspired by Mariska Hargitay, but she also does a lot of charity work. She has her joyful heart foundation and we would like to use our platform, however small it may be to spread awareness on certain things. So this segment is going to be at the end of every episode.

It's called What Would Sister Peg Do? Shout out to the nun and savior of many runaway girls. Sister Peg, an amazing recurring character, RIP. And so at the end of every episode, we're going to call out a resource or an organization where you can go to learn more about or contribute to a specific issue that we touched upon in this episode. So for today's episode, if you would like more information on

workplace bullying, please go to workplacebullying.org where you can get a lot of resources on how to handle that. And if you'd like to watch along with us next week's episode, we're going to be covering Damaged, one of my favorites of all times, season four, episode 11. All of the episodes are on Hulu. That's how I watch. And if you're more of a peacock TV type person, it's available

there as well. Thank you so much for listening. Tell a friend. Give us a fun review. You know, follow us on Instagram. We're going to post some fun games and gifts and SVU art. We'll see you guys next week. That's messed up is an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you like us to cover, shoot us an email at that's messed up pod at gmail.com. Follow the podcast on Instagram at that's messed up pod and on Twitter at messed up pod. And follow us personally at Cara Clank and at glitter cheese. As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer and fellow SVU super fan Hannah Kyle Creighton. Thank you to our heroes, Stephen Ray Morris and Annalise Nelson, our engineers. To Henry Kopersky, musical extraordinaire for our theme song. To our artistic queen Carly Jean Andrews for all of our artwork.

Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia hard star Karen Kilgariff, Danielle Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media. Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you in the next one. .