My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 10: Murderous TENdencies

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, they're throwing it back to Episode 10 – Murderous TENdencies – where they first discussed the eerie 1943 mystery, "Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm," and the chilling crimes of Richard Chase, the Vampire of Sacramento. Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode!   Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder   Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes/rewind-murderous-tendencies My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories, and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is exactly right. This episode is supported by FX's Grotesquerie, a new series from executive producer Ryan Murphy. Heinous crimes unsettle a small community and the local detective feels these atrocities are eerily personal, as if someone or something is taunting her. Starring Nisi Nash Betts, Courtney B. Vance, Leslie Manville, and Travis Kelce. FX's Grotesquery premieres September 25th on FX. Stream on Hulu. What does possible sound like for your business?

It's more cash on hand to grow with up to 55 interest-free days. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. ["My Favorite World"] Hello. And welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is our new weekly episode where we bravely revisit 2016 and some of our earliest episodes

and give you our two cents on the olden days. We kind of talk shit on ourselves in a lot of ways, you know. We're not above that. And we also consider who we were, who we are now, everything that's changed along the way and wherever we can. We also provide case updates. So today we're rewinding to episode 10 from Friday, April 1st, 2016.

And this episode was called Murderous Tendencies, get it? So go get your favorite manicurist, a door-to-door salesman, or a single cat lady, and invite them to listen along, because now we can all be day one listeners. Okay, are you ready to listen to the intro of episode 10? I mean, why not? That's what we're here for, right?

Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Check one. One, two. One, two. What is this? Check it out. Y'all. Stay in the podcast. Okay. A kind of a rap beginning. The night Karen and Georgia lost their minds. I have to say this would be it. Is this episode 10? Oh my god. Happy 10th anniversary. What a gorgeous day for the two of us. This is what? Wood? Is this a wood anniversary? This is the wood anniversary. I got you a sign that says, would you murder me? Yeah, they carved it at the fair for you. So, um, God, did you ever think we'd get, when we were recording the first one, that we would record nine more? I never thought we'd get this far. I mean, it is.

Special. It's a special thing. It was a thing that we talked about a couple times, then we actually did. Then we just did it without ever talking about it again. We're just like, let's just fucking do it. Which I think is like, that's how you do things. I think so. Don't overthink it.

No. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't over plan. Don't plan. And floss. And floss and wear SPF 30 or higher. You heard the song. You know what you're supposed to wear.

I mean, listen. Look. Look and listen. Look and listen. Wear your mother. Watch out. Wear your coat. Listen to your mother's. Karen and Georgia. Listen to your mother listen. Wear your mother. Watch out. Wear your coat.

Listen to your mothers. Karen and Georgia. Listen to your mother. Listen to your mother. I'm Georgia. I'm Karen. And this is my favorite murder. Welcome to my favorite murder X. Right?

That's 10. Oh, yeah. X. Yeah. Little sexy throwing the sex in always. Always got to be sexy when you're getting murdered. Got to. Have to.

Stay so. Yeah. X. Yeah. Little sexy thrown the sex in, always. Always got to be sexy when you're getting murdered. Got to. Have to. Stay so. What? Stay so. Stay so sexy. Stay so sexy.

As a favor to us. Welcome back. We are highly trained professionals. We have radio backgrounds. We have NPR backgrounds. We have PhDs. We both have PhDs in podcasting. We both have PhDs in podcasting.

You don't even know you guys. You don't even know what you guys are doing. You don't even know what you guys are doing. You don't even know what you guys are doing. You don't even know what you guys are doing. You don't even know what you guys are doing. You don't even know what you guys are doing. You don'tPR backgrounds. We have PhDs. We both have PhDs in podcasting. We both have PhDs in podcasting. You don't even know you guys. What if we went to Yale for podcasting? We just haven't bragged about it yet.

We could be teachers there. We could. The first teachers. Where we're like, here's what you got to do with podcasting. You got to record it. Listen, I almost graduated community college. I feel like I am ready for this. Yeah, you got to record it. Listen, I almost graduated community college. I feel like I am ready for this. Yeah, you're ready. And I flunked out of state college.

I think you're supposed to do that, aren't you? I hope so, because I sure did with flying colors. I think I got like a 0.12 grade point average. I mean, you know what is really boring? Math. School. School and math. Listen, kids drop Georgia were like, don't do it. Then they told me about terrible murder. I'm going to be a podcaster one day. Oh Jesus. But there is someone on our podcast, Facebook group, who's going back to school to become a forensic scientist because of us. Legit

said, listening to this has inspired me. That's a good one. I'm going to be a podcaster one day. Oh Jesus. But there is someone on our podcast, Facebook group, who's going back to school to become a forensic scientist because of us. No. Legit said listening to this has inspired me. Yay, because she wanted to do it before and then like... Yeah, she's always been in love with true crime and she said that you guys helped inspire

me. So we don't have to take all the credit, but there's fucking credit there. Sounds like we get 75% credit. I feel like we're going to her graduation. I would completely go. I really would. I absolutely like we're going to her graduation. I would completely go. I really would. I absolutely would. Oh my god. That's so exciting to me. It's the thing that we both would love to do. God bless your education.

Do it. Help people. Yeah. Solve some fucking crimes. You're probably not going to make a lot of money, but fuck money. Listen. Money is for suckers. Look. Look and listen. No, do it. You know, you make a decent amount of money. Yeah. I think so.

I mean, listen, I've learned. Listen I've learned. Look, look, listen and learn. You only need a certain amount and it's more than you're going to probably make. But do it anyways. I have made no brag, but this is true. In times of my life, I've been so in debt that my father has told me to move home. And I've also made so much money that I could have anything I

wanted. Me too. And I was absolutely miserable when I had all the money. And I had the best time in the world when my dad was like, seriously pack it in, give up the dream. I do think back about that because I've been in the same place where I had to borrow money from my mom for rent, who also has no money. Yeah. Oh, that's the worst. Yeah. And I've had a shit ton of money. And listen, life is easier when you have a little

money. Of course. But it's just as fun when you don't. And it's like freeing. Yes. You don't have as much weighing you down. And also, it's good to have it's good to be challenged. It's good to have hardship. And obviously, we're saying that with a grain of salt of like, think life can be hard and then we're not saying we're both talking about in the past five years. It's not like when we were in our fucking 20s.

I'm talking about the last five years I've been like, yeah, I've had this experience recently where I was. Money did not make me happier. All I could figure out to do with myself was order cashmere sweaters off of J.Crew. And then I just ended up giving them to my cousins because they ended up being this weird symbol of like, I'm not about that. I don't really give a shit about that. I wish I could give all the millions of meals I've eaten that I've paid so much money for. Those are worth it.

Well, yeah, I guess. The first thing that made me think of was like amazing French bread. Oh, like I've eaten millions of dollars in carbs. There's no way that's not true. Well, because you do it professionally. I do it professionally and I love carbs. And then yeah, you do it voluntarily. I do it voluntarily. You have very good taste.

Thank you. The thing is too, instead of wanting money, you want to be doing for a living what you actually really love. That's why it's great she's going back to school. I didn't know that was a thing. I really didn't think that would be a thing for me in my life. That you'd be able to figure out what you loved? I didn't think I could do it for a living.

So I would never state what I loved because it felt too cocky to be like, I want to be a writer or I want to be a little, I want to be on camera or whatever the fuck it is. It just felt stupid to say that I wanted it. So you can just tell yourself. You don't have to tell anyone else. Right. But also you get it just as much as anyone else should get it. You're as deserving as anybody. My grandma's saying, well, as big a dummies than you. And that applies to fucking everything. I promise you someone way more stupid than this girl has become a forensic scientist.

A bigger dummy. 100%. Right? Yes. So she can do it too. She can not only do it, she can improve the field. Absolutely fucking tivoli. Because she likes it.

Speaking of, I'm reading a new book. Okay, let's hear about it. And by that, I mean, I'm listening to a new book because I'm obsessed with audiobooks. I am listening to a book called No Stone Unturned. It's the true story of the world's premier forensic investigators. Remember, I think episode one, we talked about Necro Search? Yes. It's a book about how NecroSearch came to be, which started

with them burying pigs to study decomposition and what happened to bodies. But what's so cool about it that I didn't realize is they all come from a wide range of backgrounds from, I'm reading this, geophysicists to cadaver dog specialists, to chemists, rank and file cops, and no one is allowed to address anyone as other than their first name, they can't say doctor. So no one's a no one elitism, none. Nice. And everyone is just as important. And everyone's it's, the book is like a testament to socialism. I don't know. It's really good. Well, because like we've talked about a bunch of times where like when cops, when the culture

of policing gets in the way of solving crimes because people are like, oh, we're going to keep that our, I was going to say our district, our department gets that case or you see it all the time in law and order. Sure. And you don't want someone's help and you don't want... You don't share information. It's the whole thing that happened during the zodiac killing. And he killed in all these different counties in the Bay Area. Nobody knew. Who should have been sharing information.

Yeah. Well, this is really cool because their only goal is to find buried bodies. That's what the NecroSearch is, is buried bodies. Or I mean, so corpus indilecti. That's bodies- Not delicious bodies? Indilecti. It's such a rad book if you're really into forensic science and all of these fields and

how, you know, just forensic detectives, it's a good fucking book. And they're just trying to help solve cases. It's like a new way, right? In the beginning, they're looking for one of Ted Bundy's victims based on what he told them where he hid the body And so they're like a bunch of them get together to go try to find this girl's body And there's somebody there that's like that kind of tulip only grows if dead I don't kind of took only grows of this if you take a photo when the sun is rising or the Sun is setting you'll see indentations in the grass

that you won't see otherwise. That means that the soil has been disturbed. The part about the bloodhounds who find bodies is like adorable and incredible. They're like such good fucking dogs. They're very stupid also apparently. Oh, wait. But you know, they do these little things like they furrow their brows when they're sniffing and that's to store the scent in their brows and when they need it, they unfurrow their brow and they get the scent again. They do all these little weird things.

This is the kind of shit that the book tells you about and it's written really well and there's also updates because it was written like 90 something. 91. So it's updates now. My dog is half hound. Oh, I love hounds. And she's hilarious because they look different. Their faces change so much.

Like when she is excited, her face looks one way. And then when she's like concentrating, she looks totally different. That's really funny. I just heard that their lip flaps are long and they go over the bottom lip because it collects the scent in their mouth. Like it gets it all up in their nose. Oh, when their ears, because their ears flap, it, it kicks up dust so they can smell the dust, the dirt and the dust. Wow. What the fuck, right?

Yeah. So it's called No Stone, None Turn. It's on Audible. I highly recommend it. That's amazing. What's your book that you're listening to or reading? Reading? Do you know how to read?

I can read and I just bought, it's your book that you're listening to or reading? Reading? Do you know how to read? I can read and I just bought, it's the book called Lost Girls and it's about that fucking serial killer on Long Island. That baffles me. Okay. So I joined the Facebook page, by the way, everybody. Oh yeah. Karen?

No, no, no. You didn't join the Facebook page. You joined Facebook. I went, thank you. This is huge. I went back to Facebook. I made a very dramatic exit on Facebook in 2011. Fuck, everyone, like one of those.

Well, nothing had actually happened, but everybody, I was in a writer's room and everybody was talking about how irritating Facebook was, but they were also talking about how they were addicted to it. And you wanted to one up everyone? Well, I'm such an addictive personality that I can't not look at things and I get really, you know, you want to know, did somebody try to get a hold of me? And it's all that craziness. I completely understand that.

And it makes me live in a world that doesn't exist. Totally. So as everyone was talking about it, I was recognizing every single thing everybody in the room was saying. And I just really fast and without overthinking it just went and deleted my account. I did that with Twitter in like 2009. Oh, you did? Do you know how many fucking followers I'd have at this point if I hadn't done that?

I know. It's shit time. Shit time. But you wouldn't be any happier because followers are like money. I said I like money. Oh, that's right. Right, right, right. So yes, I rejoined Twitter, but don't tell anyone I went to fucking camp with.

There are other reasons I quit. Someone with your last name joined the My Favorite Murder podcast. Really? On Facebook. Susan? No, Sarah. Sling the Ness. Anyway, I was scared it was your niece because I was like, she's too young for this.

Nora, no, Norak. Nora's last name's gonna, well, I won't say her your niece because I was like, she's too young for this. Nora, no, Nora. Nora's last name's gonna, well, I won't say her last name, but she wouldn't, my sister doesn't let her on social media. You know, as of this very moment, we are about 50 people away from 2000 followers. Holy shit. I'm not gonna say followers, because that sounds kind of sending group members. Yes. And they are the fucking, it's the best group.

It is so fun to go on there. I have. So my book, somebody recommended it on that page. And then I listened to I think it's it's a podcast called I think it's called Crime Garage. Have you heard that one? It's two guys. And they were talking about the they had updates on this murder, which I had heard about, but I wanted to hear the updates. Are there updates? There were updates of just like new things that they had found, but I realized as they were talking about it that I needed to know what they were talking. I needed to know more details. And then somebody posted, whoever posted on the discussion page about this book,

when I read the reviews, it was like, this is an amazingly written book. It's funny because I've never wanted to, there's something about that case that I, I can't wrap my head around the fact that that person is still out there. And that one of the murders of the woman who ran away from that guy's house, there's a woman who went to, to dance, quote unquote, at a party house and freaked out and ran away and was then found dead. And like the answer is in there somewhere. That's what bothers me about that so much is the answer is so obviously in from when she died to when she got to that guy's

house. Yes. And that's exactly what the crime garage guys are saying. I hope that's the name of that podcast because that's what they were. I listened to it as I was in the grocery store one day. I'm almost positive it is. But basically the cops haven't interrogated the person who had that party because he's crazy rich. They were just like, no, he has nothing to do with it. But didn't she also go to some guy's house who takes in wayward females?

One of the doors she knocked on was some dude who takes in wayward females. Well I've only read, at this point I I heard their podcast and I've read like the first 10 pages. But this book is written, it's giving you the backstory of each of the bodies found. So they're not bodies found. They're these young women who have these rough upbringings, but like these mothers who busted their ass all their life to get their girl to get her to one better place. And then she was like, but I'm really pretty. A few bucks. Yeah.

That's what kind of bothered me. In the book, I'm no certain unturned. It was like about the Denver Serial Killer. They were like, prostitutes started showing up dead. And it's like, can't you just say women? You can't just say women started showing up. There's such an innuendo when you're when you specifically say that prostitutes started showing up. That's exactly right. And you can feel yourself care less than if they were like a 16 year old cheerleader from this high school. Some blonde. And I mean, we really do have a caste system.

They live more. They live more. What's the lifestyle we were talking about last week? Oh, high risk. They live a bit higher risk lifestyle. So it's more like like you get into some random dude's car wants to pay you for sex. There's a much higher chance you're going to get raped and murdered, but that doesn't mean you deserve it. But I think it's that the thing we say all the time where it's just like, ultimately, we are talking so much about these victims and what are the question mark above their head.

We how much have we talked about this fucking serial killer who has gotten away with what over 10 women these bodies are just like dumped next to this highway children. Isn't there like someone's daughter or something like that? I don't know because I've only started this book but I mean it's fascinating and it's like this this killer is just behind a wall somewhere, just totally protected. He knows who he is. It's so weird to know that like, I mean, I wonder if there's this part of him that's like, I know the secret to this and no one else does. And that's exciting somehow.

Well, and if it's like the jinx where if they're paid off or they're so rich because they're out, you know, it's out by Jones Beach. It's like way up Long Island. Crazy. Everything's gated. You know, it's all that. It's all in a bag. I don't know. It's fascinating. So anyway, I'm excited about that book and whoever recommended it on the discussion page. High five. I can't wait until we find out who he is.'t know. It's fascinating. So anyway, I'm excited about that book and whoever recommended it on the discussion page. High five. I can't wait until we find out who he is. I know. And this is good. We're gonna have an emergency episode. That we will have to like in the at 3am get the call and be like, get your podcaster out

because we got a record. Get your podcaster out. Okay, a lot to unpack here. Yeah. Where do we start? Money is for suckers? Yeah. We definitely talk shit about money, which, you know, let's not ignore that.

If we're going to talk shit, we can talk shit. We can't ignore that. Me saying, I was once so broke, my dad told me to move home. It hadn't been long before that episode. It was in the recent past of that episode. Definitely. Like honestly Vince wouldn't have moved in with me three months into our relationship if I didn't need someone to pay half the rent. Like I think about that now about how quickly

my relationships moved because I couldn't afford rent on my own. And it wasn't a bad decision and we would have done it eventually anyways. But three months in and he was looking for a place and I'm like we really fucking like each other. Can I pay 500 a month instead of, you know, 11? So like, you know, let's not ignore it. This podcast has done wonders for not moving home with our parents. And we appreciate it and I can't believe it. It's, I mean, it still hits me all the time and it's just wild and so crazy. So fucking crazy. If I had thrown in the towel when my dad told me to throw in the towel. That's right.

We wouldn't be here right now. Listen, don't listen to Jim. Please don't. Look and listen, which comes up in this episode. I mean, there's some classics that come up in this episode. Definitely. Also on the last episode, I talked about dirty deleting people. But actually on this episode is when I tell everybody I've rejoined Facebook.

Yes. Because I had been on it, could not handle myself on it when I first was on it. And so actually, technically, I started dirty deleting after episode 10. Maybe you snuck on though before and we didn't know you were on it. Oh, like I didn't have a profile? Yeah. I don't know. would I've been able to be a moderator? If you asked Stephen on the side, oh he wasn't there yet though. Stephen's still in the womb.

We're still pre-Steven. Stephen's in the womb still. Steve is off trying to grow out that mustache somewhere in Los Angeles. Oh my god. Okay, and then yeah, so we do look and listen and we do lock your door, the F4 doesn't come in yet. And then also, fuck politeness is there throughout the episode. Yeah. A lot of gems. A lot of gems in here. Also, we talk about the Lost Girls, Gilgo Beach murders. Yes.

And then we talk about when this guy gets caught, that we should do an emergency episode. And all that talk, and Rex Rex Howerman was arrested and charged with three counts of first degree murder and three counts of secondary murder in 2023. So unbelievable. And I think that was like I think we may have talked about it at the time. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. But the idea that back then we were just like I love it. And it's like little do we know what's going to happen with Golden State Killer. That is actually a thing that's going to happen. Back then, we were just like, I love it. And it's like, little do we know what's gonna happen with Golden State Killer.

Like that is actually a thing that's going to happen. I mean, it's funny because people get frustrated when I cover cold cases sometimes, but it's like, yeah. Do you mean me? I think you've seen. The point. The point, yeah. And now this is like, I mean, this is insane.

Like what, in the next eight years, what's gonna happen, right? Zodiac? What was like, what's the one that you just like want to know the answer to? Zodiac, probably, right? I mean, zodiac would be satisfying only because it's from the Bay Area.

Right. So there's that connection. Yeah. But. Jean-Bernier, I'll take. Just a solid kind of, this is actually what happened that night. Yeah, a period.

I guess I also say we need a new word for prostitute. Right. Sex worker wasn't part of the lexicon yet. I think listeners wrote in, they're like, there is one you should be saying this. That's right. We're just like, oh my god, then we will and sorry. Yeah, and it's perfect.

Yeah. Love that. Yeah. Love that we could get that word kind of. And it's like kind of known now that like you don't use the word. I mean I cringe when I hear it on like you know a tv show or something. Yeah yeah. Also regarding this Karen talks about the Crime Garage podcast episode about this but it's actually True Crime Garage where big fans are still around. Check it out. They're one of the OG True Crime podcasts. They are they definitely

are. Should we get into your story? This is one, I mean, you said it on the last episode, but Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm is a story where I'm like, I would love to know what that actually was. World War II murder mystery, like in a tree. In a tree with creepy like little talismans happening. Yeah. Like let's find this one out, you guys. Okay, listen to it now and then we'll talk about it after.

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Goodbye. This episode is supported by FX's Grotesquerie, a new series from executive producer Ryan Murphy. heinous crimes unsettle a small community and the local detective feels these atrocities are eerily personal, as if someone or something is taunting her. Starring Nisi Nash Betts, Courtney B. Vance, Leslie Manville, and Travis Kelce. FX's Grotesquerie premieres September 25th on FX. Stream on Hulu. Okay, you're going to go first this week?

Yeah, I'll go first this week. So we're ready for our favorite murder. Are you ready? All right. So this week, I picked a topic and then I hated it. So I said, Karen, what's your dream topic? Do you remember what the topic was before? It was vintage unsolved. Oh, right. Then I got really angry and was like, I can't do this. And I said, Karen, what's your dream topic? Do you remember what the topic was before? It was vintage unsolved. Oh, right. Then I got really angry and was like, I can't do this. And I said, Karen, have you picked yours yet?

And you said, no. What's your dream topic? And then I just didn't answer you because I was like, M-Y-O-B. Mind your own business. No, no, not at all. You said weird murders. Yes. Which basically is we've done so many already.

I mean, we've also done kids killing kids. We've done so many things that the category idea, we're just trying to organize our thoughts. It's trying to help us go down a path that's not an infinite path. Yes. Okay. But also what murder isn't weird. Oh, totally. It's kind of an aberration just in it.

But you know. Well, I thought there was a couple that I wanted to do. And I also don't want to do one that everyone, like there's something about the, maybe it's just the podcast, the Facebook group that like everyone in that fucking group knows every murder. Yes. Like they know everything, which is like so fun, but I don't want to disappoint them. Yes, same. You know what I mean?

So, so I picked one. I was going to do the Tommen Shood case. Yes. You know what I mean? Where it's an unsolved case of an unidentified man found dead in 1948 in Australia. And in his pot, he washed up on the beach and in his pocket was a piece of paper with the phrase, Taman Shud, which means, meaning ended or finished in Persian, printed on a little scrap of paper. And they don't know who he is, where he came from, what his

deal is. It's a fascinating case if you don't know it, which you probably, everyone probably knows it. And it's still unsolved, right? Yeah. Okay. And so is this one, the one that I picked as my favorite word murder called Who Put Bella in the Witch Elm? Is that yours?

No, no, no. But I just listened to a different podcast about this. It's also called the Hagley Woods Mystery sometimes. This is a good one. So in April 1943, which is obviously in the middle of World War II, four boys from Stourbridge in the UK were poaching when they came- Can you say that one more time? Stourbridge, UK. They were poaching, they came across a large witch elm, it's spelled

W-I-T-C-H or W-Y-C-H in different postings. I can't really tell. I think it's W-I-T-C-H. And they found a witch elm on an estate belonging to a lord. They thought it was a good place to hunt birds' nests. And so they tried to climb into the tree to investigate and they found a skull. And they thought it was an animal. And then they saw human teeth and hair attached to this. And they had found a human skull. So they were like, here's a great idea. Let's not tell anyone because we'll get in trouble for being on the Lord's land like Boys, if you ever find something say something or you look fucking suspicious Your parents won't be mad at you for being on someone's land if you find a skull everyone knows Lords or dicks

Look, we've all dealt with asshole Lordsords before. We've all trespassed on land that belongs to lords. And if you find a body, you should tell someone. So the youngest kid, it was like, of course it's the youngest kid, he's like, I'm scared mommy. Mommy. And he told his parents and the police checked the trunk of the tree. They found an almost complete human skeleton, a shoe, a gold wedding ring and some fragments of clothing. And then on further investigation, a severed hand was found buried in the ground near the tree. The body was examined by Professor James Webster and he established that the skeleton was a female who had been done for at least 18 months. At the time of death must have been around October 1941, he discovered, this is the best, a section of taffeta lodged in her mouth suggesting

she had died from asphyxiation. And I wrote, or from fashion. In my notes. She died from the 80s. Oh, Georgia. Oh, Georgia. Go for it. Go do it. The measurement of the trunk, which the body was placed in, made him think that she must have been placed there still warm after the killing as she could not have fit in once rigor mortis had taken hold. Rigor mortis is, I'm fascinated by it. It's just, oh my

God. Because it sets in, but then it goes away, right? I think it goes away after like 10 days, but I feel like you can also break it with enough force. Listen, everyone put on the Facebook group whether or not this is true or not. What do you know about rigor mortis? Clearly someone knows something. That's a good podcast too, by the way. So it's our offshoot podcast, someone knows something about rigor mortis.

Okay. So the woman's murder was in the midst of World War II in the UK, which clearly had a lot of action going on. So it hampered the investigation. Police could tell from the items found what the woman looked like, what so many people reported missing during the war, they really couldn't tell, like find out who it was. They did a nationwide search of dental practices, which came up with nothing, which I feel like in 1941, the nationwide search of dental practices was not very thorough. Yeah. You're like calling up on one of those like crank wall phones of like, you know, hey, Strowbridge 39478.

Have you seen a cap on Insides or three? We don't do those here. Yeah. Hey. Strollbridge 39478. Have you seen a cap on an incisor three? We don't do those here. Yeah. Bye. And it's also a barber shop. I love our dental. Hey, we are. They're British people that talk like they're from the Bronx.

Perfect. From a movie from the Bronx. This is good radio. But again, just the facts here, you guys. That's all you got. The fact and only the facts. you guys, that's all you got. The facts and only the facts. This is a real boring podcast. So people eventually kind of forgot about the woman in the tree until the graffiti started. What an ominous fucking line.

This is the beginning of Banksy. Someone wrote who put Lulabelle down the witch elm in graffiti? And then someone wrote the haggly wood Bella. Then someone wrote, who put Bella in the witch elm? And the graffiti appeared on walls throughout the West Midlands, which is near where it happens, seemingly by the same hand, which is a fucking, I love handwriting analysis so much. Me too. It was last painted on the, the graffiti was last painted onto the side of a 200 year old obelisk, which is like spooky as fuck.

Yeah. On the 18th of August, 1999. Whoa. In white paint. That's some, that's some, what was the, that's some Toy and Be Tile shit. Yes, that's right. It just continues on. What the fuck? So, let's see. Okay. A couple theories that the hand buried close by could

have been a hand of glory, which I actually talked about recently on Slumber Party. It's a dried and pickled hand of a man who has been hanged, often specified as being the left hand, or if the man was hanged for murder, the hand that did the deed. And they, old European beliefs attributed the great powers to the hand of glory combined with a candle. Basically, they made a fucking hand of someone who was hanged into a candle. And so when people would break into someone's house, they would bring it with them for good luck. Oh, shit. That's pretty much what it was. So it was a cultist type of thing, which is like, look, there's a hand

buried nearby. What does that mean? I feel like the glory part is a bit of a misnomer. It's horrifying. It's a disembodied hand. The hand of stolen. Horrifying. They put the wicks on the tip of the fingers. If someone broke into my house with that, I would run. So of course you would get away with it. Take all of my jewels. Bye.

I'd be like, bye. Okay, bye. Okay, bye. You got me. Later days. So, so I read this part from, this is all from like Wikipedia and random like websites. This is from the unredacted. It wasn't until 1953 when journalist Wilford Jones started

to write about the old case that interest was revived and he would soon receive the first solid lead in nearly a decade. This is in 1953. There was a letter signed only Anna offered new details of what had happened to Bella. According to the letter, Bella, I love this, had been murdered because of her involvement with a Nazi spy ring operating in the Midlands in the early 1940s. Yes. No, I'm obsessed with World War II and Nazis. Love them. Hundreds of German spies were captured in Britain during the war and the Midlands would have been a valuable source of intelligence because of its prevalence of munitions factories.

Wow. Really fucking cool. So the journalist- You never think of England as having spies like that. It's like you think of, cause it's an island over by itself. How did they get there? Well, this is one of the theories. Oh, sorry.

No, no, no. I didn't write this down, but this is one of the theories is that she parachuted in and somehow ended up in the trunk of the tree. I call bullshit on that theory. Maybe she parachuted in and they found her and killed her and the trunk of the tree. I call bullshit on that theory. Maybe she parachuted in and they found her and killed her and put her in the tree. The idea that you would parachute in to be a spy and you would parachute down into the trunk of a tree is you're the dumbest, unluckiest spy who's the worst at parachuting. Listen, she's in a plane, she gets scared. So she grabs a handful of her taffeta,

stuffs it in her mouth. She doesn't scream too loud. On her way down, hits her arm, her hand comes off. The force buries it in the ground. This is all absolutely feasible. It's doable. It's doable. Wait a second. What material? Taffeta is like prom dresses. Taffeta isn't parachutes, right? I think, no. Taffeta, I feel like it's an underskirt material.

Oh, okay. Or maybe it's a lacy collar. Okay. Like a high, like Victorian lacy collar. It's not like nylon. We're not talking, it's a different thing than parachutes. No, yeah, that would be cool. I thought I had a theory, but.

You know, at the same time though, these stories are passed down so long that someone could have said it's taffeta and that stuck. Which is the problem with these old crimes is like, they just get told so many times that these things come back. So I'm going to say that she had parachute nylon stuffed in her mouth. Let's change the story that works for us. We're slipping the script. Okay. So then the journalist got a letter from this woman, Anna, claiming Bella had

died after getting involved in a World War II Nazi spiring. And she said, finish your articles on the witch elm crime by all means. They're interesting to your readers, but you will never solve the mystery. The one person who could give the answer is now beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. That's a great way to say someone's dead. We're now called my favorite beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. God, earthly courts. That's a great way to say someone's dead. We're now called my favorite beyond the jurisdiction of the earthly courts. God, earthly courts. I know. The affairs closed and involved no witches, black magic or moonlit rights. Basically this witch is like, I know what's fucking happened.

Shit. Do you think that witch, did you say witch or bitch? That bitch knows what happened. No, no witches, black magic or moonlight rights. Like she's saying it wasn't a witchcraft. Because it is in the forest. I know. Creepy. Yeah. And she's found in a fucking trunk of a tree.

Like that's, that's some, what was the show recently with, um, A Mary Harrelson? No, Woody Harrelson. Oh, True Detective. That's some True Detective shit right there. Season one, baby. Season one. Fuck season two.

Season two is slop. Although we did see Colin Farrell at the movie theater the other night. I almost told him your performance in True Detective season two was masterful. The only saving grace of that episode season. And my girl Rachel McAdams. I do love her. No? She just bores me. She just talks like this all the time and she bores me. I know, but she has perfect, like, she always has a good bob. Yeah. She has a great bob. She has a nice tall forehead. I'm jealous of her face.

She loves a tall forehead. I really do because mine is like a three head. It is the shortest. All my bangs are an atrocity. Nothing works. You should shave the front part of your forehead. Like an Edwardian. Just get it waxed and it'll look like... That's a good idea. Oh my God, I want a barf.

Like how you used to cut your Barbie's hair off in the front for bangs. Like, here's bangs, they'll grow in. You know, I used to do baby bangs like in the early 90s when I was a big drunk. Like little foofies? I can't tell you how my face looked like a straight up full moon. I looked like the blood moon walking around working at the Gap. You talk about your photos from when you were younger so much, and I've never seen them. I'm dying to see them.

I've scrubbed the internet of them. Please don't scrub my brain of them. Okay. Sorry. No, this is the best part. After subsequent correspondence, Anna revealed herself to be a woman named Una Mossop and told the full story. She said her husband Jack worked on a local munitions factory, again, the munitions factory in the early

1940s and come into some money after meeting a mysterious Dutchman. He later admitted to Una that the Dutchman was a Nazi agent and Jack had been passing him information about the local industrial sites. Listen, you asshole. This is why we fucking lost the war. No, I'm kidding. We actually won the war. Good news, Georgia. I'm totally kidding. Let's see. So, which in turn was passed to another agent posing as a cabaret performer at local theaters. The Midlands have been bombarded by the Luftwaffe in the early 40s and such information would have been invaluable to

the Nazis to target their raids when they would have done the most damage to Britain's war effort. One day Jack met his contacts at a pub close to Hagley Wood. He was arguing with a Dutch woman. This Dutchman was arguing with a Dutch woman. He ordered Jack to drive them both out to the Clint Hills, but the argument had grown extremely violent and the Dutch one. Ordered Jack to drive them both out to the Clint Hills, but the argument had grown extremely violent and the Dutch agent strangled the woman in the car. Fearing for his own life, Jack helped carry the body into the nearby haggley woods where the pair buried it in the hollow of an old tree elm. That sounds reasonable. Yeah, that's, I mean, it sounds insane, but like a reasonable explanation.

Also, sorry to say, but it's kind of a good idea to bury a body inside of a tree. Totally. It's like now how they're doing burials when you can be like, I want to be a pod and you can get buried in the woods now. Oh, right. But it's against your will. But it's the only difference. Listen, stick with me.

It's an eco-burial, but you don't have a choice in the matter. This totally makes sense to me. And I was going to say something else and I forgot. So yeah. Oh, I feel like there's so many murders that are solved because an ex-girlfriend, a jilted ex-lover, ex-girlfriend is like, hey, FYI, here's what happened. Totally. I didn't say because I was scared. Which I totally believe. You eventually tell.

Yeah. I mean, because that guy had a lot to lose. If he was passing info. Oh, treason. Then if she said anything, yeah, he probably told her, I'll kill you. I mean, like. Yeah. He thought he would die.

She didn't want him to die either. She loved him. Yeah. And then he slept with her sister And she was like listen fuck this dude. Is that the reason why she? Okay, so Una's husband was apparently so traumatized with a brutal murder Myrtle of Bella that he had a nervous breakdown tormented by horrific visions of a woman's skull in a tree and he was Institutionalized in 1941 and apparently died later that year. So that sounds totally plausible and feasible. And it sounds like it happened immediately. Like he went through the trauma and then just

freaked out. It turns out nobody knew this, but Nazis are assholes. Oh, yeah. They should have mentioned that in the 40s. America could have gotten involved in that 40s. America could have gotten involved in that war. I said it. You heard me. And I said it. It's like everyone from there. That era is dead. I don't care that you said it. It's true. There's like one 90 year old veteran that's like, how dare you? I came here to listen to a Moda podcast. Not a rant against the Luftwaffe. Yeah. So that sounds, I like that theory. Again, I like it and it fits very well and it could have changed a lot and who knows if it's true, but it's a good one.

Yeah. There was a second possible victim, but being a prostitute, again, prostitute. Some woman who sold her body for sex. She was forced to. Right. Stated that another prostitute called Bella who worked on the haggly road disappeared about three years previously. So, you know, that could have been the same woman too. True. I like that one. So yeah, you guys want to, there's actually a good photo of the skull. If you go online,

so this is the who put Bella in the Witch Elm or the Hagley Woods mystery. You can see some cool photos from back then. Okay, now we're back, 2024. Okay, so update wise, it's been 81 years since she was found in 1943. No major updates. There was a facial reconstruction of Bella's physical features based on photographs of her skull done by British anthropologist Caroline Wikkinson.

But it didn't lead to any new insights. And the location of Bella's body is now unknown. So a DNA test is not going to happen. I have a book recommendation based on this story actually. Oh really? Yes. It's a World War II murder mystery that also like jumps into the front, jumps to the back. It's all over the place. It's so good. So if you're interested in this story, I highly recommend the book. The Lake House by Kate Morton. It's all British and shit. World War I, the Blitz in London, like just really juicy and good.

I'm literally going to take this recommendation and read this book. This is the book I wanted you to read because I want to know if you can figure out what the surprise twist mystery is. Oh, okay, I'll do it. Okay. Kate, what's the author's last name? Her name's Morton, Kate Morton. She's like an incredible writer.

It's so British. Great. It's like the thing of like something crazy happens in the past and there's a big secret and the person in the future right now is trying to find out the secret before the matriarch dies or because they found a book or a photo that like leads them back to their, you know, lineage. And so they go back to the old like Castle Farmhouse and find the answer. Like it's just that kind of thing. And like memories start to resurface in a way that they fucking don't, you know? Yes. It's good. It's good. Okay, great. Nice.

I might read a book this year. You know, those people that are like, I read 85 books this year. Well, to be fair, I listened to this. It's just a different thing. Counts. Counts. Okay. So let's get into your story about, wow, a madman. I mean, Richard Chase, AKA the vampire of Sacramento. BRO! It's official. All sizes of premium roast coffee at McDonald's now have a new low price, starting at just $1 plus tax for a small, every day. The next Tuesday that falls on a prime number, dollar plus tax.

The next weekend practice, dollar plus tax. Your cousin's kid prime number, dollar plus tax. The next weekend practice, dollar plus tax. Your cousin's kid's birthday, dollar plus tax. And the next day that ends in a Y, one dollar plus tax. One dollar small premium roast coffee every single day. Must be McCafe plus tax at participating restaurants in Canada. Prices exclude delivery. I've known about this one for a while and I've been trying to jam this one in like when Georgia said, what do you want to do? And I was like, weird murder. It's like the first

thing I thought of for this. But once I started really reading details, I remembered, oh, that's right. About 10 years ago, I watched a documentary about this and boned myself out so hard that I just kind of put it out of my mind and never thought of it again. Oh, God. I'm already having nightmares from the Facebook group. So this is going to be fun. Right. And I'm sure most of the people on our Facebook group know this guy too, because he's, he's, he's not a top tenor, I don't think, but he's up there. It's Richard Chase,

the vampire of Sacramento. And I know that once again, I'm talking about Sacramento. Now, there's so many murders that happen in Northern California. Yeah, there really are. There's a lot of country, there's a lot of space, wild space. It's almost like hillbilly-ish in some areas, shockingly. I hear what you're saying about my upbringing, but fine. I don't care. No, I just mean that there's farmland. Yes. There's a lot of space for people to really do what they feel at night. Making meth.

We're just making meth. Tons of drugs. Yeah, there was a lot of acid up there. I mean, that's where the... I'm also listening to right now, have you ever heard the You Must Remember This podcast? Yes. I'm listening to the Manson Murders one because so many people, there's a woman on our Facebook page who mentioned it and was like, is anybody else listening to this? I'm listening to the Manson murders one because so many people there's there's a woman on the our Facebook page who mentioned it and was like, is anybody else listening this I'm going crazy. And people all talked about it. But I had already heard. I think Patton was talking about it on Twitter because Michelle McNamara talked about it on. No, maybe she

didn't. But she talked about a murder in like Laurel, Kenya might have been related to Manson murders. And maybe she mentioned it. I'm not really sure. Okay. It's a great podcast and it's like talk about like fucking high-end. Yeah. Music cues all that. So it's like our podcast. It's just like this one. Brilliantly written, concise, effective. They don't they take it seriously. They don't make fun of murder. We're not making fun. I know we're not. We don't make fun of murder. We're not making fun. I know we're not. Okay, I can't wait. Your notes look-

I'm not because I almost barfed in my car. I was sitting, I got here a little early outside George's apartment and there's never parking on her street. So I was like basically- Give him my address. Bring your knives over too. So I was like a block and a half away sitting in my car in the dark. It's okay.

Next time pick me up and I'll walk with you. Oh, okay. I never thought about that. Yeah, but you're like, once I got up here, you're like in your slippers. Yeah, but I come with shoes on so fast. Okay, good. I'm glad we worked this out on the air. I will, because I'm gonna next time. I don't normally I never have that feeling. I've lived in this major city by myself for fucking 25 years. And tonight in writing about this

serial killer in the dark in my car with my iPhone light on, sitting there and then a guy walked right by my car and he was talking either on the, I'm sure he was on the phone. It scared me so bad that I was like, Oh, this, I got to get out of this car and walk up the street. You might've just had a fucking intuition about him. Let's say you did. Let's say you're super intuitive and you're like, and he's a murderer. Oh, I'm definitely intuitive. I think we all know that you and I are very intuitive.

I think I just found the Zodiac killer and he takes the bus. I just hear Karen on the street yelling, say that vampire of Sacramento is a man named Richard Chase. And he did all of his killings in one month, but his whole life led up to that month. He was, he had a terrible abusive mother. By the age of 10, he had the McDonald triad, which is as we all know, arson, bedwetting, and cruelty to animals. That's called what? The McDonald Triad.

I didn't know that. And that's a theory. Now people- Yeah. There's no- I know each of those, but- When they are combined, a lot of people look at that. And some people say that is a direct link to serial killers, but actually that's been

disproven. that. And some people say that is a direct link to serial killers, but actually that's been disproven. What it is a direct link to oftentimes or more often, I should say, is abuse. Brutal abuse of parents. And that's what Richard Chase had. What are they? Bedwetting? Bedwetting, arson, and cruelty to animals. Fuck, man. So it's like, if you have a proclivity to this, usually it's the bedwetting is the first if you're being abused.

That's uncontrollable. Because it's uncontrollable. And then the rage is arson and cruelty to animals. So, it builds if it doesn't stop or if the kid has no work. That hurts me in my heart. I know. It's terrible. So, I was eating lunch with April Richardson, our friend, and telling her about this. And she basically goes, Oh, this guy had no choice. This guy was going to be a

serial killer no matter what. Because this, all of these things in his early life do add up to it. And when he was in high school, he had girlfriends and stuff, but nothing ever lasted because he couldn't maintain an erection. because it turns out he was only sexually aroused by the killing of animals or the stabbing of people. Okay, so the killing of animal erection probably started first, obviously. He accidentally got an erection one time while he was killing a mouse. You know, it's the thing with like a foot fetish where it's like your genitals get rubbed by a foot. It's something with like a foot fetish where it's like your genitals get rubbed by a foot. It's by a beautiful woman, whatever. And then you associate boners with...

Yeah, it gets imprinted on your brain or whatever. But I think they say with stuff like this, this is like crossed wires. This is bad wiring. I'm already seeing someone writing, you associate boners with, like, the people on the Facebook are writing this beautiful quote, hilarious quotes. Oh yeah, and the calligraphy. Like with a beach photo in the background. He associates boners with feet. With feet.

It happens all the time. Yeah. Okay. So, of course then he gets in, it's the 70s when he's a teenager and older. So he's super into acid and then he starts and they so they're never really sure if it's drug induced psychosis or if it's paranoid schizophrenia. Later on, they're like he definitely had paranoid schizophrenia. But if you do enough LSD, you can actually induce trigger. Yeah. If you were going to have schizophrenia 50 50 and you do a bunch of drugs, it's going

to happen more likely, right? I don't know about that. Maybe somebody just keep doing that. Maybe someone else can be a part of this research. But they were talking about drug-induced psychosis is basically a parallel thing. And it would happen at the same time because people who are starting to experience paranoid schizophrenia would try to self-medicate. If they weren't on medicine, then they would drink, they would get high on pot, and they would do acid. And this was the 70s where nobody thought it was that bad. It wasn't that big of a deal. So to kind of quickly synopsize, he basically started going to the doctor all the time and telling the doctor that somebody stole his pulmonary artery because his heart was stopping.

And that also his cranial bones were moving around and coming out of the back of his head and he ended up shaving his head because he was so positive that this was happening. What a terrifying thing to be sure of. Yes. And if you're having that organically in your brain, but then you're doing acid, I mean, horrible. Not like Karen and I have ever done acid multiple times, but- No, not in the least. It does that.

I just stared at my friend's hand until it was my hand. Because it's fucking fat. It's the most fascinating thing you've ever seen in your life. Yeah, it's crazy. But then I did it one time and I was like, I'm never doing that again. It's just chemicals. Don't do that. Don't do it.

It's not good. Anyway, he also was sure that his blood was turning to powder. So he had a lot of medical issues that he's going to bring into the doctors a lot of the time. The doctors pretty sure that he was, because that's actually the age in men, like late teens is when the signs of schizophrenia start showing. So he was kind of going through that. He was started accusing his mom of poisoning him. And so his father got him an apartment and moved him out of the house. Wow.

Basically said, you can't be here anymore. Go be alone. Yeah. Do whatever you want to do. Yeah, exactly. So he was alone and it turned out he gave himself blood poisoning because, and this is where things are going to become a serious bummer. So let's do it. He was injecting himself with rabbit blood. He was injecting rabbit blood into

his own veins. These are all ways he thought he was going to pelt his powdery blood or his skull bones moving around or whatever the fuck thing he thought was wrong with him. So he was, they don't know how he was buying rabbits or catching them or whatever, but he was drinking rabbit blood, mutilating rabbits and then he started injecting the blood into his skin. So he involuntarily was committed to a psychiatric hospital. I want to go to psychiatric high school. Everyone just keeps asking you how you are all the time.

Now here's the weird thing though. Not that there are very many psychiatric hospitals around anymore, but at this place, the staff was scared of him. That's how freaking this guy was. And at one point they told a story of the nurse going into his room and there was blood all over his face. And she was like, what's going on? And he said, Oh, no, no, I just cut myself. But it turned out they found some dead birds on the outside his window. He had been catching birds and drinking their blood. The scary

fire. Yeah. So they started calling him Dracula and they're all freaked out. Well, the doctors legit had like power. No, no, no, no. He was Lestat. Mind melt. He was Lestat. I feel like you'd hold out for human blood. Wouldn't you? Bird blood? You get whatever you can get. Bird blood though. I mean, it's pure, man. They're so dirty. So they get him on, they start to, they balance him out on psychotropic drugs, right? And they finally after a year are like, you're free, you're not going to be a danger to yourself or others, see you later. And they release him from the hospital. His mother, upon his parents, I think the word they used in the article is recognizance. I don't think that's the correct word, but it's basically under their supervision. His mother immediately weans him off the medicine because she's smart lady. So she gets him off the medicine, gets him

his own apartment again. Now this time he has- And she's the person who abused him to begin with. Yeah. She's not smart. She's probably a bit crazy herself. She cares little about his wellbeing. Yeah. She probably just wants him to get away from her. And this was also the person that was like, did I say that part already where he was accusing her of poisoning him? Right.

So she's just like, she knows she's in danger. The idea of her weaning him off the medicine though, God knows what that was about. I can kind of imagine and it's idiotic. It's frightening. So he's out on his own again. So he ends up sharing an apartment with three roommates and he is so fucking weird that they demand he moves out. Apparently he was drunk high and on acid all the time. He would do stuff like nail himself into his own room and accuse them of like trying to get into his room and invade him and all this stuff. So finally there and he also was always naked.

We just walked through the room naked. So no one can have anybody over. So finally they're like, you have to move out and he refused. So everybody else moved out. That's how creepy it was. So he's in this house by himself. And that's when he went into full vampire mode. So he started, they don't know, buying, catching, whatever, but he was constantly getting animals, mutilating them, drinking their blood. He had a thing he would do where he'd put the animal blood in a blender with some Coke and blend it up and drink it. Soda? Like Coke soda? Yes. Coca-Cola. Yeah. Like a little smoothie, pre-Jamba Juice. This was late 70s.

Otherwise, he would have been fine. He would have been a millionaire. And so these were all the ways he thought it was going to keep his heart from shrinking, which was his main fear at this point. I mean, to be honest, blood is good for you. Like eating blood is, you get a lot of iron. Iron, yeah. If you have iron, poor blood, but it's not going to help your cranial bones from moving out of the back of your head. You're a pregnant woman. Fine. If you're psychopathic, fucking. And if you are a pregnant woman, you feel like you might have iron poor blood. Instead

of mutilating a rabbit, you can just have a Guinness. Drink one Guinness and you're done. It's perfect. Or have an iron, chew an iron tablet. Yeah, you could do that too. Don't drink blood. Iron a bunch of shirts. Go on. I've never heard of this one, so I'm fascinated.

Oh, okay. So the killings begin on December 29th, 1977. And right the month before the killing start is found. There's a place called Pyramid Lake that's kind of by Lake Tahoe. And it's this weird kind of salty lake. And it has these weird rock formations that are pyramid shaped. And apparently, this guy drives out there and there's just Richard Chase standing out there naked covered in blood. And they're like, what the fuck? So they call the sheriff or blood. And they're like, what the fuck? So they call the sheriff or whoever and they find Richard's truck has a bucket of blood

in it and the whole inside is covered in blood. So they arrest him, but then they test the blood and they find out it's just cow's blood. So they let him go. Goodbye. No charges. No charges. Because apparently that's, you're allowed to just cover yourself in cow blood if you so choose. Oh, that's fine. Yeah. Just be standing. Imagine if you're like, let's go out to pyramid lake and take some pictures. What a gorgeous day. And you get out there and that fucking, apparently he was like 5'11 and weighed 145 pounds. Oh, so he's like emaciated and he's a ghoul. He looks like a ghoul.

Or what if I was like, Karen, do you want to go out to the pyramid lake and put our cow blood all over ourselves? And I'd be like, yeah. And then be like, Oh my gosh, Richard, what are you doing here? I knew it was meant to be. So, so a month later, he was basically walking around and driving around his neighborhood and he just starts shooting people. So he does a drive-by and he ends up killing 51 year old Ambrose Griffin who was out in his driveway. He was helping his wife bring groceries into the house. She thought he dropped and she thought he had a massive heart attack because it was such

a strange thing. And then she only found out when he heart attack. Because it was such a strange thing. And then she only found out when he got to the hospital and was pronounced dead that he had actually been shot twice. No. Ambrose. I know. And he, you know, later that, and he was a father of two, very sad. Later that day, a 12 year old boy riding his bike reports to the police that a guy drove

by in a brown Trans Am and shot at him and missed. Jesus. So he's wilding. Richard is doing some crazy shit. He's wilding. Okay, so- Again, you won't get professionalism like this in any other podcast.

That's right. Where we're just like, whoa. Oh my God, babe. Okay. So then January 23 23rd about a month later. Mm-hmm. This one's rough It's a bummer. So this is where it turned for me where I was like look how weird this guy is Eating rabbits and drinking their blood right? But that of course just was the beginning for him to go on and do that to people So if you didn't like the rabbit part,

you're really not going to like this part. Everyone liked the rabbit part. Everyone doesn't love a good rabbit killing. So this is the part that's a super bummer. What he would do is just walk around a neighborhood and try doors. So yeah. And he told the FBI agent who interviewed him after he was arrested from jail that he would walk around and then if a door was locked, he interpreted that as that he was not welcome and he would move along. But then if you would get to a door that was open, he would go into the house and just see what would happen. So there's a story of him. On the same day, he was trying doors and he walked up. A woman tells a story of seeing this young man who looked super crazy and creepy walk up and try her back patio door and it's locked and she's watching him

do it. He walks over to the window and tries it. It's locked. And then he walks to her front door and she walks up to the front door like, what the fuck doing he just stares at her and then walks away that is this if I saw someone trying my back door and my window shit a breath I would scream yeah that's terrifying it's horrifying so then he went on his way I'm pretty sure she called the cops because obviously she told that story yeah but he went on and the next house he found the front door was open. Oh no, lock your doors guys. Yeah, always. So he goes in and a pregnant 22 year old woman named Teresa Wallen. Teresa run.

Her body was found disemboweled, drained of blood. And there was a yogurt cup sitting next to it that had been filled as if he was drinking out of it. And she was raped and mutilated and her organs had been taken out of her body. What a sick fuck. Yeah, it was super crazy like Jack the Ripper style insanity. And the worst part is that her husband came home from work and their dog was on the front porch and the lights were out, but the stereo was on. So he goes in like, what the hell's going on? He thinks, oh, it didn't say.

Probably the doors. That's what I'm picturing. Something hideous. He thinks there's oil in the front room. Like he doesn't understand what's happening and then he finds his wife's body. How fucked is he for the rest of his fucking life? It's over. It's over. It reminds me, it makes me think of like the end of the Zodiac. Remember the movie, the Zodiac, when they interview the guy?

In the airport? Yes. Who had been in the car with the girl who got shot. Yeah. That actor is a great actor. His name is Jimmy. I can't remember his last name, but he, you know, the girl from, um, beautiful, uh, heavenly creatures who was, it was Kate Winslet and then, um, the girl with the brown hair. I'd heard that he was someone before. So that makes, that reminds me that I can't remember. He's a great actor and he was on he was on all of this is meaningless.

I can't, I can't say the right names. And before the cops later found that he had put a bullet in her mailbox as he was walking up to that door that was significant to him. Yeah, somehow in his crazy fucking, I mean, the idea of seeing that gore and guts and blood and not being and being and being not affected enough to stick around and keep doing it, there's gotta be some crazy dissociative shit going on. Yeah, he's gone, gone, gone. Most people see someone get cut and see blood and are like, I can't deal with this, or like a broken bone.

They're like, I can't deal with most of us. Yes. Can't handle it. But he's not even, it's like that thing of like, you know, sociopaths don't have like consciences, but he's psychotic. Like this is, he's not there. So he leaves that house and apparently he had gone into another house, the cops find out later. He'd gone into another house and had gone in because the door was open and had ransacked it and peed into a drawer of freshly laundered baby clothes and then defecated

on the little boy's bed on their child's bed. They walk in, he runs out the back door, the husband chases him and he can't catch up to them. So that was just like a fucking near miss that they weren't in the house. They were just coming home. Yeah. Thank God no one was there. And same day as he did that murder. So he was just walking around doing what he wanted and doing bad things. He wasn't even aware of it that he needed to go hide.

Right. You know what I mean? Right. Exactly. No, no I mean? Right, exactly. No, no, no, not at all. Like he knew once the guy was chasing him, but no, he didn't. He was walking around with like bloody clothes and didn't try to hide it. That's not mentally competent to stand trial if I've ever heard it. Yeah, no, he's out of his mind.

He was totally fried. So once this murder and this horrible scene is found, they call the FBI in and the FBI makes a profile and it's like young, unemployed, mentally ill and it's like they undernourished. Like they had him. Has been in lockup before, like they know specific shit. Yes, the way that the way the FBI does. So then the next murder is 36 year old, and this one's rough, Evelyn Mroff and her six year old son and his friend Daniel.

And now the good news is that in my mind, they were all shot. So he didn't torture them or make them suffer. But I'm, you know, I see what you're saying. I totally see what you're saying. I mean, as compared to some hideous ones that we talk about. How many times have I said, oi ve and Jesus? I can't stop saying that. Because this is hideous. But it's basically, she was upstairs taking a bath while her friend Daniel, who is 51, was in the house watching the kids while she was up there. He shoots that guy. He goes upstairs and shoots her in the bathtub, mutilates her, rapes her body, eviscerates

her, does weird shit with her and trails, all that creepy stuff. Then the little kids each just got shot in the head. And then there was a baby that when the cops got there, they found a pillow with a bullet hole through it. The playpen had blood in it and the baby was missing. So yeah. So now the cops and FBI and everybody are like, this is, we've got like a serious serial kill.

I mean, obviously they already knew that, but this one was, it was, I mean, you can go online and read the details, but the details are just a bummer and it's just more of what I'm saying. It's awful. It's really awful. But here's what I kind of find fascinating. And this is when I think this is the part I freaked myself out on is, so they get a call, the cops get a call from a girl. Let me find her name here. Her name is Nancy Holden. And Nancy Holden tells the cops on the same day as all this other shit happened, she was in the town and country shopping center, which I know where it is. Shut up. In Sacramento.

That's so exciting. Off Watt Avenue. It's this area and it's like, Sacramento is just this big, I said it before, but it's just like this big wide spread out. It's like all these suburbs smashed together. And shopping centers and stuff. Shopping centers and Shell stations and Taco Bells. That's all I remember. So culture everywhere.

It's just culture as far as I can see. It's like New York but flat. So they're in the Town and Country Shopping Center, which is one of those full on 70s like a shopping center that looks kind of Adobe. Like light wood. Yes, light wood. There's a lot of Ivy. I'm from Irvine, like in Orange County.

You know it. Archway, walkway type of thing. All the signs for the stores have the same, it's like woodcut signs. Yes, with like, there were like dark wood and white paint. Yes. Oh my Irvine. That's Town and Country Shopping Center. So this girl, Nancy Holden is in a store and this freaky guy walks up to her and says, were you on the motorcycle when Kurt was killed?

And 10 years before her boyfriend Kurt was killed in a motorcycle accident in high school. And so she's looking at this person and she goes who are you and he's like It's me Rick chase and then she's like she remembers Richard chase from high school as being this like studious cute guy and now she's looking at this fucking again ghoul and he has he's wearing a sweatshirt with blood on the front Of it, and I think I think barefoot is what she said her with blood on the front of it. And I think I think barefoot is what she said. But apparently he's trying to talk to her and she's just standing there like getting the worst vibes to this guy. So at one point he turns around and buys something and she just gets the fuck out of the store for her. He follows her out because he wants to get a ride from her and

he's trying to still try to talk to her. She gets in her car locks the door and drives away like peels out. This girl's smart. She's super fucking smart. And then she calls the cops and says, here's the experience I just had. The guy's name's Richard Chase. And that's what leads the cops to his apartment. When the cops get to his apartment, they stake it out for a little while, they go up and knock. They know they can tell he's in there, he won't come out. So they just go back and sit in their car and watch. Finally, after hours, he comes out holding a box. He's got that same bloody sweatshirt on. He's got no shoes on, bloody feet. The baby's in the box?

They arrest him. No, there's weird random shit. And I think the gun was in the box. But they go into this apartment and it is covered in blood. The walls, the ceiling, it's putrid. Like the smell was apparently horrible. He's got three blenders going. Like not going, but three blenders with all of his crazy shit on the counter. And they said it was just, it was a horror show inside. Inside the refrigerator there's body parts. It's like Dahmer style, pre Dahmer Dahmer. What a sick fuck. Crazed. And it was basically this person who's in full psychosis left alone to just go as

crazy as he needs to go. Schizophrenia doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go fucking murder. No. It doesn't mean that's going to happen. That this person, that was his predilection is to to go fucking murder. No, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean that's going to happen that this person that was his predilection is to fucking go after it. This is like the, you know, the perfect storm of an abusive childhood, paranoid schizophrenia, untreated drug use worse. It's he he went down the worst possible road and then drove himself 20 times further down

that road Did they did they find that he had killed anyone before this murder spree or was this it? No, but there were stories of him like walking through people's backyards There were lots of the creepy story of I saw that guy He tried my door or just somebody like there was one of just him standing in someone's backyard lighting a cigarette. Like the creepy, creepy factor is all in there. So of course he goes to trial and ultimately he, I didn't really write down the details because I just started getting so bummed out about this whole thing. It doesn't matter.

You're talking about the murders. It's yeah, right. And, but here's what I like that FBI. The FBI agent that created the profile of him went afterwards and interviewed him at San Quentin. Love this. And he explained that it wasn't his fault because Nazis and UFOs were trying to kill him. And he needed to kill and he needed to drink the blood and he needed to eat the organs and do all this stuff to stay alive himself.

He's so mentally ill. And then in one of the articles I read, there was two different kind of versions of the story, but I love this version. Then after explaining all of this, which is just batshit psycho bullshit, he reaches into his pockets and pulls out a whole bunch of macaroni and cheese and gives it to the FBI agent and goes, they're trying to poison me. I need you to go test this. And so apparently the story at jail was that the guards and everybody said that all the

other inmates were so freaked out by him that they were constantly telling him to kill himself. And so in 1980, he had stockpiled all the antidepressants he was supposed to be taking and he just took them all one night and killed himself. And so in 1980, he had stockpiled all the antidepressants he was supposed to be taking and he just took them all one night and killed himself. Fair enough, man. Yeah. I appreciate that he did that. But most important question, was the macaroni and cheese spiked? It was totally poisoned by alien Nazi blood and a little rabbit. I ate macaroni and cheese today. Do you think that it was?

Be careful. How do you feel? Crazy? No, like I love macaroni and cheese. I love Nancy Holden. She is the key element in the town and country shopping center. She's the one. Yeah, I know we had the Woodbridge Village shopping center.

It's a bad one. Karen, how are we going to rid you of this? I feel like you need like a palate cleanser. I feel like I should start drinking again tonight after 25 years. Don't you think that's the key? Yeah, but not on my watch, man. Yeah, just watch me drink four beers. It's literally on my watch. I demand that you watch me drink 29 beers because I can do it. I just want to prove

to you I can do it. And then you turn into him. And that's the night. Also, and I'm sure everybody's seen it, but the pictures of him, there's part of me and this is the sick part of me where you look at pictures of him and go, he could have been so cute. It's kind of like Nancy Holden being like this guy, he was cute in high school. And now he's super scary. Yeah. But it's kind of sexy.

I mean, blood on the ceiling, blood on the walls. Blood on the ceiling, blood on the walls. There's a song here. Oh, hey. Okay. I thought of something. We're going to do, we're going to start doing live shows. Yes.

Every month. Can you do the theme song live every time we do a live show? You know what's funny? I think I can, but I made that up just in the excitement of you and me recording that first podcast. I went home and just like started playing that. I would have to really take some time to figure out what I was playing. How about it can be different? You can just fucking freelance and do whatever the fuck you want every time. Okay. Okay, wow. That was so chilling and creepy.

And lock your door, please. I mean, that's the thing about Sacramento. It just really, it has this tendency to draw or pull out of people. The grossest, weirdest, most fucked up things. It's, you know, it's horrifying. It's so funny. I think you think of Sacramento the way I think of Orange County. Yeah.

You know? I think so. I suffered there a lot. OK. I did a lot of suffering. There you go. But then I also had some nice beers. And some of my oldest friends are the people I met in Sacramento.

There you go. So there's no major updates on the Richard Chase case. The Richard Chase case is a story of a person with unmedicated, untended to mental illness to a degree that just goes out of bounds and is a true argument for reinstating government mental health facilities, services, all those things. People need it. This is just like a horror movie of what can go wrong if they don't have it. But in the story I told, I was a little bit vague on who was killed on January 27th, 1978, in Evelyn Murroth's home. So I'll be very clear, the victims that Richard Chase

murdered that day were Evelyn Murroth herself, who was 38 years old, her son Jason, who was six years old, her nephew David Ferreira, who was a baby, and Daniel Meredith, who was 51, he was a family friend. So just for the clarity of the people who were lost that day in something that was like insanely tragic and just worst-case scenario of any of these kinds of stories that we talk about. Like an absolute horror story slash like outlier that you just can't help but live your life differently because you've heard it. Even though it's just such a random act and rare and you know locking your door isn't going to do anything to ensure your safety, but

man. Right. Well, I mean, I think our specialty is oversimplifying things and then yelling them at people because we have anxiety. Yes. That's a... You just fucking summed it up so hard. There it is.

It only took us this long to figure it out. But it's like, it makes me feel better if I just yell at you and say, get in the car, immediately lock the doors. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, totally. Literally just start doing it again. A beautiful thing about this podcast too, and we talk about walking to my apartment in Hollywood down the street at night, a beautiful thing is I have a parking space now. Oh, congratulations.

Due to this podcast. Thank you. It really means a lot to me. So what's fun is that you thought of doing the mini-sodes, didn't you? Yeah, separately. I think I was like, let's do a whole episode about mini-sodes. You're like. Because there were so many because the Gmail box was so fucking full of incredible stories.

It was like there's no way to just do the episode and this. Right. So then we got to do a second episode, which it's like that kind of audience participation helped us become what we became because that's how numbers go up and that kind of interaction enabled Georgia to have that idea. And then we're like, yeah, second episode. And then, I mean, that is it like you guys built this with us Totally. I do think it's funny too that like the word hometown back then was like what's your home? Like it really was what's your hometown true crime story or whatever it is that got you into it? But now it's just like a word that's thrown about about

Your horror stories or your incredible story. It's just hometown. I love that. Hometowns. That's right. It's another way of saying your grandma story. Yeah. It's kind of like the hometown inside of you. Oh. So what would this episode be called if it wasn't a pun, murderous tendencies based on stuff we said in the episode? Look and listen was because I said that

after suggesting that people floss and wear sunscreens. I think we decided that whenever we say something motherly or like tell you what to do, it's a very like, look, listen. So look and listen has to be. That's right up there. And then I say, listen to your mothers. Right. I talk about people getting PhDs and podcasting. Which probably is a thing now.

I mean, there's definitely, well, Kate Winkler Dawson teaches podcasting. My God. I mean, in college. Yeah. Yeah. And then millions of dollars of carbs. I've eaten millions of dollars of carbs. When did I say that?

That's funny. There is a fun part of this. There is. Where we go, look, we had some fun ideas. I like this. Yeah. I like this. I like you guys. It's fun to have a career where we get to do the thing we're interested in the most,

laugh this much, and then work with people that we adore. Yeah, totally. Alejandra, our producer, Leanna, our engineer, who's also a college professor. Do you teach podcasting, Leanna? Not anymore. I teach like used to teach audio production, but I did take a podcasting class in my master's degree. Wow. What grade did you get? NA, Karen. Yeah, you did. We don't hire, we look at your GPA when we hire you here.

Exactly right. That's right. We're like, sorry, if you got below a B, we can't. But you and I, our college drop, we wouldn't be allowed in our fucking own company. My only grade was below, C or below at all times. But yeah, we have to really hold a standard. It's important. All right.

Well, thanks for being here with us on yet another episode of Rewind. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?