My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 12: Our Bodies, Our Twelves

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 12 – Our Bodies, Our Twelves – and the cases that got them into true crime: the attempted murder of David Rothenberg and the murders of Diane Downs. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode!   Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder   Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes/rewind-our-bodies-our-twelves My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories, and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is exactly right. This episode is brought to you by FX's American sports story, Aaron Hernandez. From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes the first installment of FX's American sports story. The limited series charts the rise and fall of NFL superstar Aaron Hernandez. It explores the disparate strands of his identity, family, career, and death, as well as their legacy in sports and American culture. FX's American sports story, Erin Hernandez.

All new Tuesdays on FX. Stream on Hulu. Goodbye. This episode is supported by FX's Grotesquerie, a new series from executive producer Ryan Murphy. heinous crimes unsettle a small community and the local detective feels these atrocities are eerily personal as if someone or something is taunting her starring Nece Nash Betts, Courtney B. Vance, Leslie Manville, and Travis Kelce

FX's Grotesquerie all new Wednesdays on FX. Stream on Hulu. Hello. And welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia. This is our new special episode where we come to you on Wednesdays. We sneak up behind you and start whispering in your ear to discuss our old episodes starting from 2016. It's a recap of our own show. That's right. On Rewind, we play the old episode, but we also reflect on the past, let you know if and when we messed up, and update you on

developments on the cases we covered. And today we're going all the way back to episode 12. We named it Our Bodies Are 12s, which made me laugh out loud just now. Oh, brilliant. That's a real A+. It's from Wednesday, April 13, 2016. And the theme of this episode, we are still doing themes at the time, is murders that kicked off our obsession with true crime.

So good. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's the theme of the show. It is. It is. It's what we landed on. So go get your favorite intern, a crosswalk attendant, and maybe just also your dog, and invite them to listen along because now we can all be day one listeners. Okay, let's go to the intro of episode 12, Our Bodies Are 12. Yeah, name that tune. Do you know that song? What's that? That's the beginning of a song. It's an 80s song.

Yeah, it is. I'll do it for you. Okay. I'm doing marching rhythm. See the arms. Yeah. No, what is that? Thorn in my side by the ear and next. Now I feel stupid. Oh no, spray.

If everyone could see their marching, they would understand how great this is. Someone at home is yelling, it's the heretics. There was someone that got it on the first note. Totally. The reason I was doing that everybody is because Georgia has gotten these beautiful mic covers so now we can pop our peas. We can pop any peas we please. Pop our peas and sing our song.

Welcome to my favorite murder. The most professional murder podcast. Slash sports announcing podcast. Slash sports announcing podcast slash distant video game music. And singing. It's going to be, this is going to, it's going to take the internet by storm. This new combination of entertainment. Do you think they can hear the like the shooting helicopter video game noise coming from the apartment downstairs?

I don't know. There is a video game being played with that kind of really high pressure music and definitely some version of murder happening in that video game. It's a wall shaking war video game. One would think I would be rich enough to buy a house. You will be. And yet... Very soon. There goes a house. You will be. And yet... Very soon. There goes a motorcycle. There goes a fucking motorcycle.

Is the motorcycle in the video game or is that separate? That was separate. Okay. I mean, I've learned to ignore it and then I realized that we're recording something and it's like, oh, that's embarrassing. I think people like ambient sound. It makes it real. They know we're real.

We're street. We're real as fuck. We're as fucking real as they get in this apartment complex. They're real. We're street. We're real as fuck. We're as fucking real as they get in this apartment complex. They're real as. We're super real. Let's talk about the woman who was found in a dumps, in a recycling bin. Recycling bin is better than a trash can. Also idiotic.

You should have put her in a trash bin. I don't know if I can, I don't know if it is it better? Yeah. I mean, it's like, Cleaner. More organic. I just feel bad. This woman from Seattle, she has three kids.

She's just given dating another shot. Just trying to find someone who will love her and like her kids. Are you trying to make me cry because I will start? I am. That was my mom. And she goes out with this guy to a fucking whatever the sports team is in Seattle game and... Seahawks?

Yeah. And then goes missing. Mariners. There we go. And then gets fucking found. That's the worst. It's awful. It's heartbreaking. Do you know if it was match.com? Don't.

Tinder? I don't know what dating site it was, but I know they've gone out a couple of times. So he wasn't like, it wasn't like a warning like don't go out with strangers. It was like, she knew this person. So it was Christian Mingle. And like they showed a photo of the guy and I would never have guessed he was a psychopath. What is it about the Pacific Northwest? I mean, seriously, this is like, I always think of Twin Peaks where it's like haunted forest, bad spirits emanating from an ancient site and then going into downtown Seattle and just fucking up lives. There's so much land in which to bury and hide people.

There's depression because the weather is so fucking dark. Yeah. Right? Yes, dark thoughts. Everyone there has seasonal defective disorder all year round. Across the board. It's called depression. It's called depression.

Everyone's got it and it makes them serial kill. No, it's heavy. I have to say the couple of times I've been to Seattle, I've had a lovely time and it's been in the summer. It's so beautiful. I can't stand it. But it's like LA people go there in the summer and then they're like, what are they saying about Seattle?

Everyone's wrong. And then you leave. I have a message for everyone in other parts of the country. Okay. Move to Los Angeles. It's sunny. Literally it's what you make fun of. It's constantly sunny.

Yeah. There's no seasons, which I mean, you're like, I love seasons, but you love it until mid-February. Yeah. And it's kind of dirty. Yeah. But in a way that makes you feel like you you're gonna be okay Would you rather get dismembered or just like get a random bullet on the freeway in your head? I Mean pick one Karen pick one right now. Yeah. Yeah random bullet random bullet. Yeah, although once you're dead

The dismemberment doesn't affect you that it affects your family. No, that's very true also stuffing someone into a garbage can of any kind is such an aggressive act of there's so much hatred in that act and it's vile. It's amateur hour too. Yeah. Because what do you... Of course they're going to find this. They're going to find that, which maybe he wanted that to happen.

So he got caught. I think they immediately just went on her computer. I think so what I think happened is it wasn't premeditated. Oh. You know what I mean? Because he snapped? Because if someone has that much information about you on their computer and matched that you were going out with that person that night and you went missing from there, something went wrong. Clearly it's going to come straight back to you. Clearly you have an anger issue and you went missing from there. Yeah. Something went wrong. Clearly it's going to come straight back to you. Clearly you have an anger issue and you snapped.

Ugh. Here's the thing. Fuck everyone. Right. That's, we should have said that right at the beginning. This podcast should be called, Here's the thing, fuck everyone. Here's the thing.

Everyone. Fuck everyone. Except for you guys. Except for- Thanks for listening. Except for our 2800 plus members on our fucking Facebook group. It's growing like a wildfire.

And no one is a pervert. It's the best. Well, just the one that one guy. No one acts like a pervert. Right. Oh yeah, exactly. They keep their pervert perverse private. They're private parts pervert.

Like us. Everyone. They're private parts pervert. Like us. Everyone, the Facebook group is like my bloodline. I love it so much. People keep taking quotes from us and putting them in beautiful settings. Georgia keeps texting me the quotes that play into my ego, where somebody put a quote of mine from this podcast over a sundial, which made it look so regal. And it was like wisdom from the ages. Yeah. The font is beautiful. It's terrible. It's like papyrus. So it looks real.

People are just really hitting it out of the park in terms of their participation. It makes us so excited. Yeah. Please go join the Facebook group. Yeah. It's good times. I mean, it doesn't do any, it does nothing for us to make her happy. Like we're not gaining anything out of it. No, I don't think so. Not yet. Anyway, I mean, we'll figure out a way to monetize that.

We're going to hunt all of you down and make us buy a, make you buy a t-shirt. But right now we're just having fun. We actually are talking about getting t-shirts made. So this is, this is going to be a real dividing line that the hardcore people, you will buy and wear a t-shirt that says my favorite murder on the front of it. And then that's going to weed out the week of the people who say, I don't know if I can commit to public murder, love of murder.

And then the fucking hardcore people are going to come to the live shows we eventually have. Yes. Because we're definitely talking about doing live shows here in Los Angeles. So we'd love to see you if that's something you'd be interested in participating in. We'd love for you to come. Let us know on the Facebook group if you'd come. Yeah. We'll make it worth your while. I'm really excited about this topic, this episode. Because I see you have, usually you have this crazy serial killer notebook full of writing.

Of my seven writing. Yeah. I think we both, and I usually have a few pages printed up, but we both have only a little dialogue because, or a little writing because the dialogue around it is going to be intense. Yes. Because this week we decided to go, the topic is the one that started it all. And that is somebody actually guessed this on the Twitter page. I'm sorry, I can't remember.

They don't want their names known anyways. That's true. But he said it was a guy and he said, why don't you guys should do that? And I think maybe hearing us, because we mentioned something about that last week. I don't even know if we did because you texted it to me randomly. And that day he was like, you guys should do the one that made you interested in murder. I felt like we talked about it on the last episode, but maybe I could definitely be wrong. My memory is shit. I know.

Mine is too. I have no idea. But it doesn't matter because that was super ESP on his part because that's what I had texted to Georgia and that is what we were talking about this week, the serial killer or the murderer that kicked off our fascination with murder. It is rough. Like hearing that the way we discussed a victim that got put in a trash can. Yes. Yes. Yes.

It is rough and we've changed, thankfully. I mean, I think it's a real reflection of two gals having fun and thinking nobody else would ever hear this. Right. And we were basically, you know, feeling around for like, what is this and what are we doing? And it didn't take long and it truly is thanks to the audience and audience feedback where we started to really get a sense of like, wait a second, people are listening and this is, there's things that you can make jokes about and things you can't. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad we did that. And in this one, we read a letter from a listener

correcting us for exactly that sort of thing. So, you know. Which I think is really, that was a great lesson because we were saying prostitute, that's all we were reading. Yeah. Or seeing anywhere or hearing on true crime shows. And then someone wrote in and said, hey, it would be way better if you started saying sex workers. Yeah. And it made complete sense. Yeah.

We did it. We did it. So, let's see, we get the classic, I guess this is the first time I ever said, here's the thing, fuck everyone, which was like one of my favorite things to say at the time in my life, you know, 36 years old and fucking hating everything. Sure. Well, also it was a reaction to that horrible story. Yeah, exactly. So, it was, sometimes I feel like we would find ourselves in those moments of like, God, this is bad. So it was sometimes I feel like we would find ourselves in those moments of like,

God, this is bad. And then it just like, well, I guess we'll just try to button it and move on. Right. Let's see. Facebook has 2800 members. And then we said that they're putting quotes and funny stuff we say on back on cute backgrounds. And now we know that that's called listener art. It's listener art. And we have boxes and boxes of it here at the studio. And we are decorating the studio with them. So if you have something you want to send to us, feel free. I remember the very first listener art that I could, I was so impressed by it. And it was George's quote,

live, laugh, learn to levitate. Which, and then it was just put on the most gorgeous background, like a sunset in the forest or something. And I was just like, this is the shit. Top notch. Yeah. Top tier. So good.

Okay, so let's go back to episode 12 for George's story about the attempted murder of David Rothenberg. This episode is brought to you by FX's American sports story, Erin Hernandez. From executive producer Ryan Murphy comes the first installment of FX's American sports story. The limited series charts the rise and fall of NFL superstar Erin Hernandez. It explores the disparate strands of his identity, family, career and death, as well as their legacy in sports and American culture.

FX's American sports story, Erin Hernandez. All new Tuesdays on FX. Stream on Hulu. Goodbye. This episode is supported by FX's Grotesquerie, a new series from executive producer Ryan Murphy. heinous crimes unsettle a small community and the local detective feels these atrocities are eerily personal, as if someone or something is taunting her. Starring Nece Nash Betts, Courtney B. Vance, Leslie Manville, and Travis Kelsey. FX's Grotesquerie, all new, Wednesdays on FX. Stream on Hulu.

Do you want to go first? Do you want to go first? Whatever you want. I think you went first last time. Okay. But I might cry. Really? Yeah, this one fucked me up. Okay. For life. Okay. Want me to go first last time. Okay. But I might cry. Really? Yeah.

This one fucked me up. Okay. For life. Okay. Want me to go first? Yeah. Okay. This is Georgia.

But can anyone tell our voices apart? I don't know. There's a list. The intense list. And the one who says- I love that we're like eight minutes and you're like, this is Georgia, by the way. You don't know. Oh, someone was like, someone drew caricatures of us on the Facebook group.

And they're like, I don't know what Karen and Georgia look like, but in my mind, this is what they look like. And we just look like, it was hilariously ridiculous. And someone was like, just look at their ins... Like look at them on, like Google them. They're both like public figures. Which I was like, so charmed that someone just found it and doesn't even care what we look like.

Did I have curly hair just by chance? I know it's been my dream. We both looked a little bit like Kathy from the Kathy part. God bless. I was like, amen. I feel in my mind I look like a little more like Pat Benatar, but the reality is I look like fucking Kathy. Reality is always Kathy.

Reality is, eck. All right. So, so the one that started it all for me is actually an attempted murder. Okay. But I feel like it's the same thing because it was attempted. It was like supposed to be murder. And it happened in 1983 and I was- Hold on.

Okay. Say the name right now. You say it. This is one, two, three. David Rothenberg. Oh. Oh. Thank God.

Who's that? Is that yours? Yeah, that's mine. Oh shit. Oh my God. And mine happened in 1983. Shut your face. I swear to God.

Is it attempted or real? Well, there was one. Oh, no, no, no. It's a mix. That's why I was like just staring at you like, holy shit. One of these days we're going to have the same one. Okay. Sorry. I think we should set a rule that if we ever get the same one, something crazy has to happen.

We should have a third murder in an envelope that we just have someone else randomly print up and then we just have to read. Wouldn't that be funny if we had a random murder? We don't even know. Oh my God. That's very weird. That was crazy. Okay. So in 1983 in Orange County, which is where I'm from. So I was only like, I was almost four at the time. So my parents needed to stop watching the news because I fucking saw this entire thing in a rum beret from when I was three. In 1983, a six-year-old, so it's around my age named David Rothenberg was brought to a motel near Knott's Berry Farm, which is

in Buena Park, California by his father, Charles Rothenberg, who was taking him, his parents had divorced, he was taking him on an authorized visit. And that night, Charles, the father, got in a fight with the mom on the phone and said to her, if I can't have him, nobody else can. And then, and this has stuck with me since I was four. The dad gave David a sleeping pill. You ready for this? Mm-hmm. Poured kerosene on his bed. Oh, I remember this story. Yeah. Kissed him goodbye and struck a match as he stood in the doorway. He watched from

a telephone booth across the street as the fucking fling. He said he was going to kill himself too, but he was too much of a coward. You fucking light your fucking child on fire, but you're too much of a coward to kill yourself. No, you're not a coward. You're a sociopath. You're a psychopath. You're a fucking piece of shit. So thankfully, a bunch of people in the motel dragged him from the inferno. I mean, the pain that this kid went through, he suffered third degree burns over 90% of his body. It's not supposed to live. If you see photos of him, I really don't want to say his new name because he

changed his name because he didn't want his dad's last name. It feels a little like salacious. But you can find him. And I remember seeing him in updates in the newspaper throughout the years, especially because, so the dad was convicted of attempted murder, arson, and other charges. Karen, guess how many years he got? Oh God. Is it going to be something like six? More than that, but it's- Twelve. Thirteen. Ugh. God, is it going to be something like six? More than that, but it's 12, 13. So I remember in 1990, I distinctly remember the newspaper article was that was a photo

of the kid with like his, you know, a little older now looking behind his back and it's like, if this guy gets set free, he'll always look behind his back and see if he's there. And actually the dad said in 1990 when he was supposed to be let out of jail, do I deserve to be set free? And he said, no, it's an unforgivable act. He even knew that he should not have fucking been set free. And I remember, so my parents divorced when I was five and so my dad got custody of us every other weekend. And I feel like it fucked up five and so my dad got custody of us every other weekend. And I feel like it fucked up my relationship with my dad.

Yeah. Because this guy could have been a drug addicted fucking crazy person already, but I wish my dad isn't and wasn't. But in my mind, it was just someone's dad, someone's daddy. Yes. And he was still able to do this to him. So it really fucked me out for the rest of my life. And actually, weirdly, David, the kid, the person who became a father figure to him,

which is hilarious, is Michael Jackson. Heard of the horrific circumstances surrounding David's accident and reached out to him and they became life on friends, which is like another, so sad. Well, it's sad, but it doesn't necessarily, but I mean, nothing happened. I don't think anything happened. I don't think so either. I don't think, I think Michael Jackson was inappropriately comfortable, but I don't think anything happened. I don't think so either. I don't think, I think Michael Jackson was inappropriately comfortable, but I don't think he was.

I think he had an incorrect sense of what you were supposed to do. I think he had an incorrect sense of himself. Yes. And I think he wanted to be around children because he still wanted to be a child. Yeah. And I think he was protecting this kid who suddenly just like that got a lesson of what it's like in the real world, which is horrific and terrible. And the person that you trust, you know, sets you on fire.

I feel like I know that story because it's probably because of the Michael Jackson part or probably because it was like one of those stories, but like, didn't he go on to like speak at schools? Yeah. He's like a, well, yeah, he's a pretty big advocate. He does a lot of advocacy. He's turned it into good. He speaks out against child abuse and all these things. And he's finally, you know, when your body is burned over 90%, you have chronic pain constantly. And he found someone who was able to relieve that and he's like an advocate for that. And it's just, so, but his dad served less than seven years of that sentence. Oh my God.

Yep. He settled in Oakland in 1990, but then he was arrested that January and charged with the attempted murder of a man and being a felon in possession of a gun. So I don't know where he is now, but I'm bet it's not in jail. Well, oh God. Yeah. It fucked me up. The divorce thing and this and that. My dad had us every other, every summer for a couple of weeks and would take us places and it was very stressful for him. I feel like it clouded my childhood a little bit. This was a thing that divorced parents, this is how they reacted sometimes.

Yeah. That was even just a possibility. Yeah. Especially because it was 20 minutes from my home. Yeah. Well, it's uncomfortable enough and hard enough for little kids. They don't understand why it's happening. It's like the whole world changes, so why wouldn't that change too? How can you feel safe? Yeah. My mom is angry at my dad and this is stressful for my dad. And so people react crazy and it's unexpected and adults make it complicated and kids have an easy solution to everything. Yeah. I'm sorry. What a terrible start in the world of murder for you.

That was a start. And then unsolved mysteries was a thing that somehow my parents let me watch. What the fuck? Were you a latchkey child as well? Oh, I was a latchkey kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, me too. You just do whatever you want when you're a latchkey kid. Nothing. And we, I mean, I talk about this all the time, but like kids today and even young people today don't understand how it was the wild west for kids in the 70s and 80s.

It was just like, nothing was thought of through a child's eyes. Nobody was like, hey, maybe we should throw up a warning before this show to be like, don't watch this if you're home by yourself. I learned how glamorous being bulimic was from Lifetime movies. Yes. You know? That's right. That Jennifer Jason Lee bulimia movie taught everyone how to do bulimia.

I learned that relationships had to be insane and rocky from 90210. They had to be dramatic and fucked up and crazy. And then when I was like 22, I was like, Oh, wait a minute. They can just be happy and it's fine. Like I don't have to have like, might even be better. Like a tar riff in the background only get like when I'm mad at him. Or like how Tori Spelling's boyfriend, didn't he beat her up? He pushed her down and fucking fly to stairs. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that way. Turns out you can just watch TV and get high. And really enjoy yourself. And really like each other a lot. And laugh.

And it's cool. And really laugh your asses off. Yeah. And make each other cheese toast. The best part of relationship to me is when someone makes you cheese toast. Oh, I like it when people pick you up from places. Oh. Like when you get to go do your thing, but then somebody comes and picks you up.

Do you know what happened the other night? I was supposed to go to a girls night party at this bar and I was like, guys can come later. But Vince and I had spent the whole day together and on the weekends, I have a hard time. That's what we do. I'm a little codependent. Anyways, so he drops me off at this bar, it's like dive bar where we're supposed to meet at five and I'm two minutes early because I'm Georgia and I'm fucking early to everything. And I walk in and the light, the music is incredibly loud and no one is there yet. And I call him, he had driven away and I was like, come get me.

Fuck this. And he drove back around and got me and I took a nap. And then we went back to the party together where you guys were allowed. Nice. Because I just couldn't. No, no, you don't. And you don't have to. You get to do exactly what you want.

Any weird preconceived idea of what, how things are supposed to be, quote unquote, isn't the truth. And you get to do what makes you comfortable and what makes you happy and exactly do things the way you want to do them. If any teenagers are listening right now, which what are you doing? Please don't do that. I promise you, your life gets awesome. Yes.

Because you get to choose whatever you want to do. Yeah. Although I think kids these days get to so much more. That's like a revelation for us. Probably most kids these days listening to this would be like, how else would it be? Yeah. Because you have connection to every human being in the world. Yeah. The pre-internet days were dark, my friends. No, they were real. They were super real, just like us.

Like we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be as awesome. You wouldn't be wearing all black right now. This is my weekend goth look. Well, unfortunately we didn't have the same one. I feel like that would be, I kind of feel like it would be majestic. I feel like if we ever have the same one, we have to treat ourselves to an incredible dinner. It's a celebration.

That's right. Of our minds melding. Yeah. If we ever have the same one, we'll go to Musso and Frank's and get fucking steaks. Oh, good idea. Let's just do it anyway. And sand dabs. I don't even know what sand dabs are.

It's like old fashioned food. Let's do it anyway. We'll get Roquefort dressing. Yes. Sides and sides of Roquefort dressing. Oh my gosh. You know what I want? Scalloped potatoes.

Yes. You know what I want? I want a dry martini. Girl. I want five dry martinis. Girl. Can olives or onions? Olives.

Fuck yeah. Can I just have that one night where I get to start drinking again? I want five dry martinis. Girl, olives or onions? Olives. Fuck yeah. Can I just have that one night where I get to start drinking again? Listen, let's have a... How about episode 15? This is episode 11, right? 12.

12. Episode 15, we'll celebrate by going to Musso and Frank's. I love it. The classic old school steakhouse here in Hollywood. I love it. I'm going to wear a snood. I don't know what that is. Yes, you do. It's the back hair net. Oh.

That holds all your hair in one little pile from the 30s, 40s. I want to say I'm going to wear one of my vintage dresses, but they are so tight that I can't eat anything in them. I have multiple times ripped open the seams in the back of my dress. Why don't you wear your vintage sweatshirt? I'm gonna wear a vintage sweatshirt. I'm gonna wear my vintage gap jeans. I'm gonna wear my vintage pregnancy pants. I'm gonna wear my vintage pregnancy pants.

Yeah. Really that case, I just remember it happened in 1983. So I was maybe three or four years old. But there were a lot of updates in the newspaper all the time about it. And so it just always stuck with me. And then my parents divorced two years later. And I just, I always thought about it.

And Marty is obviously not, you know, a monster, but it did stick with me that that's something that parents can do to their children. And it just like changed my little tiny couple years of life outlook. Yes, of course it did. And it feels like that's the reason we now have those parental warnings on TV shows and stuff. It's like you sat down somewhere and got a big eyeful of media about this horrifying story that was not for you to hear. Yeah, about another child. And, yeah, I mean, it was awful.

All right, so some updates. In 1996, David legally changed his name to Dave Dave to free himself of his father's last name and legacy, which is amazing. Dave led a creative life, eventually becoming a conceptual artist, a house music DJ, a music producer, rap musician, and music video editor. He eventually moved to Las Vegas. And in July of 2018, he passed away from complications from pneumonia, and he was only 42 years old. I think that's incredible that he, like, went and lived his dream and did the art and the like things that,

because it can be so healing when you actually go do things like that and really express yourself through art. And it just sounds like he found a spot. It's just that is a silver lining for this horrible story. It is. He definitely flourished. Dave's mother, Marie, ended up marrying one of the police officers who had supervised the fire investigation. And in 1985, she co-wrote a book entitled David, which was later adapted into a made-for-TV film in which Bernadette Peters played the mother.

I feel like I would remember that because I love her so much, but I don't remember that. No. And then David's father, Charles, he fucking got 13 years and he served seven for that crime. And he continued to build up a serious criminal record, including charges of robbery. And in 2007, he was sentenced to 25 years to life under California's three strikes law. And he's still there today. Yeah.

Just a true crime. Everybody loses this is a horror show, what is going on. Totally. And it's my hometown, my first hometown. Right. Yeah. All right, well, let's hear Karen's equally awful story about Diane Downs. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace.

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Georgia. Karen. Here's my favorite murder from the jump. I thought it was John Wayne Gacy because I always talk about seeing that picture. At a very young age, I saw a graph of how he buried the boys' bodies in his house. And it blew my mind apart. But I realized before I saw that picture, because then I was like, wait, maybe it was Ted Bundy. But I realized the reason I read The Stranger Beside Me, which was the Ann Rule book about

her and Ted Bundy, I had read Small Sacrifices, which is an Ann Rule book about this woman, Diane Downs. And I will now tell you the story of Diane Downs. And this was a, this is a paperback book that I found on my mom's nightstand because my mom used to plow through any book. She would read almost a book a day, almost anything. That's awesome. And she liked kind of pulpy stuff. And this one, I just started

reading and she didn't notice that I was reading a book that I was probably 12 or so. Yeah. But again, in the eighties and nineties, they didn't understand what makes a crazy anxiety ridden person. You know what I mean? Yes, exactly. But this wouldn't in any way have long-term effects on my brain. Their parents were in World War II. Like they didn't understand. Yeah. This wasn't, it was a book. It couldn't hurt you. It wasn't a bomb. It wasn't an unexploded shell. Actually, I must have been 14 because this happened in 1983 and she went to court in 1984. So then the book was written. So, But here's how it starts. I'm waiting for

my paper, my expertly typed paper. So on May 19th, 1983, in Springfield, Oregon, 27-year-old divorcee and male woman, Diane Downs. Again, Pacific Northwest. Pacific Northwest. She went sightseeing with her three young sleeping children at 10 o'clock at night on a school night. You know this one? She was listening to Hungry Like the Wolf. When she turned on a road she'd never been on before, she said that she saw, oh, because they were exploring, that they

liked exploring. And there she saw a shaggy haired man who flagged down her car. So she said she pulled over and turned off the ignition and asked him what he wanted. He said he was going to take the car and he opened the door, pulled her out of the car, reached in and shot all three of her children at close range. She says that she then faked throwing the car keys into the field across the road. And when he turned to look where the keys went, she jumped back into the car. He shot her in the left arm. And then she sped away to the nearest hospital.

And at the hospital, her seven-year-old daughter Cheryl was pronounced dead. Her three-year-old son Danny was found to be paralyzed from the waist down. And her eight-year-old daughter Christy had lost so much blood that she had had a stroke. Oh my fucking God, real quick. I just want to get that out of the way. Okay. So, almost immediately the cops smell a rat. Sure. Because of the story I just told you, that's her official statement.

Jesus. They were sightseeing at 10 o'clock at night. Yes, as you do. As you do with your three children, one of whom is a toddler, who doesn't even know what sightseeing is. Right. So they're like, huh, interesting. And they then notice that she, in telling this story, She, in telling this story, is completely emotionless. The cop who I watched on an old 2020 said, not one tear did I see as she was telling the story. So she's explaining how her children are shot point blank range by- Yeah, but she could be in shock because they say now, don't judge someone's reaction because you just never know how they're going to-

Absolutely. However. The night of, true. But that it is going to raise the alarm bells in a cop, where if you're either not crying or fake crime. Right. Then when they brought her in to see Christy, when she had woken up from her, like she was conscious again, when they got her going. There were, there's a detective and then two doctors in the room with her when they brought Diane in. They said her

eyes glazed over with fear and her heart rates that was on the heart monitor went from 104 to 164. Holy shit. So everybody was like, uh-oh, because like a little girl surrounded by strangers and her mother, the one person who's supposed to give her comfort in the world comes in, she's terrified. So that's alarm bell number three. Then they find out that almost immediately after arriving at the hospital and her children being wheeled in to the ER, Diane made a call to a guy named Robert Knickerbocker, who was

a married man and a former colleague of hers that she'd had in fair with in Arizona, made a phone call there. And they also noticed that even though none of the children had been given any first aid of any kind, Diane had a dish towel wrapped neatly around her gunshot wound. Good to know. So these are things everybody's dinging off one by one and going, ah, all of this seems weird. Is that shitty for me to say that I'm surprised that in 1983 these things dinged?

Because I feel like a lot of shit got past people. Oh, I think, yes. I think because it was still the early days of this kind of crime being like there, cause there was no, you know, forensic files and you didn't see this all the time and hear that same story of like, but then the cops... So it was like smart cops and smart doctors. Yes. Paying attention. Yeah. And I think it's when three little kids get killed or one gets murdered and two are horribly injured, everybody's on high alert and paying as close attention. There's less of a lack of days of feel as opposed to our usual, oh, they ran away. Bullshit.

But yes, definitely these cops on this case were on it. And this one cop that talked the most in this 2020 special, which you can see if you go on YouTube or whatever, it was his first homicide case. Wow. So I think that's probably another thing. He was poised. Yeah. He wasn't jaded. He wasn't like, oh, this old thing. He was there trying to figure it out.

He wasn't thinking about all the paperwork that needed to be done. He was like, let's pay attention. He's like, what the hell happened? And they say that the phrasing here is shaggy-haired man, but that's not exactly the wording she used. That's actually a police term for that fake person that people who kill people and then blame it on a random person who came in. They call that the shaggy haired man. But she actually said and she described it and you can see like the police sketch.

It is a shaggy haired man. It's like some man who slaps her down. Some like a drifter kind of. A drifter type. Yeah. That no mother in the world would ever pull her car over for. No. On an empty country road, much less turn the car off.

That's the craziest part to me. Why did she add that in? Cause it wasn't necessary. No, because she's a bad liar and she's one of these psychopaths who thinks that she's the mastermind. Smarter, yes. And. That's really the funniest to me because they're the most obvious liars. Yes. Well, because they don't know how dumb they really are.

I really love watching interrogations when you know someone is guilty. When you're not guessing, you actually know they're guilty. And the lying they do. And how loud lying sounds. It's just so blatantly obvious. And I love when the cops play along. Yes. And they sympathize.

So with her, this is what I love. These cops decided to let her talk. She started talking to the press almost immediately. Because of course they were like, we've got to find the shaggy haired man. So she was giving these interviews and the more she did it, the more she loved it. And they called her, she looked a little bit like Lady Diana. So they would call her Lady Di. And she kept on giving interviews.

Well, four days after her daughter, Cheryl is pronounced dead, she's doing a reenactment for the news. Oh my God. And you can watch this. All this stuff is pronounced dead. She's doing a reenactment for the news. And you can watch this. All this stuff is on YouTube. She is laughing and joking along with this reporter, reenacting the murder of her children, but literally like, Oh my God, I just hit my cast. Like, she looks like a flirty high school girl. Can you explain my face right now? Georgia's, all of her orifices are open as wide as possible.

Oh my gosh. Jesus, Karen. This is an X-rated podcast. How dare you? But no, no, it's crazy. It's so unnerving. And also you see these, the interviews, she talks more and more as each one goes by. So the one that they end up having to hold because the reporter knew if they released it before

her trial, that there's no way she would get a fair trial in Oregon. In this one, she's quoted as saying, and this kind of made me sick. I had to turn it off and turn it back on a couple of times. Because this woman is overtly crazy. She has the hallmark of crazy in my opinion, which is anyone who's plucked their eyebrows down to just like two little lines. Always to me, that's like, either you're on speed, you're on some kind of white drug, or you're just totally crazy. I love it.

Because she's, it looks like two upside down use over each of her eyes. And it's like, it's like one eyebrow connected to the next cyber connects like one hair. Yes, exactly. Like she just left on the bare minimum of eyebrow. That's always a very bad sign. So she's getting interviewed and the reporter asks her, do you feel lucky that you only got shot in the arm in this terrible crime? And she says, my children are the ones who are lucky. I'm the one that

has to live with this pain and scarring for the rest of my life. What a fucking cunt. And in the same interview, you see her as she talks. She smiles at the end of her sentence. She giggles a little bit. What an idiot. And during one point, it's almost like her brain doesn't know what the correct face is supposed to be for this situation. Because she's a narcissist. Oh, that's the thing. I was watching, I read a thing recently

about sociopaths and you can tell them because when you yawn, you know, normally when I yawn, you'll yawn too. When I yawn, they don't yawn because they have no empathy. Because they don't catch the yawn because they don't feel what you feel. They don't have any of that. She doesn't understand that facial expressions read. Yes. And she doesn't know to mask. She is enjoying being the center of attention. And she doesn't know to mask that joy while she's talking about the blood coming out of her daughter's mouth. It's one of the creepiest things.

I want to call it Munchausen by proxy, but it's not because she, I mean, like shooting someone is so aggressive and... Yeah, no. Munchausen's is more, you're getting the sympathy from people. This is a person who thought she was going to get away with a triple murder of children. So what happened? So- I'm scared. So basically she keeps doing these interviews and now everyone around is seeing that this woman is not the victim of a

random crime on a country road, like she initially said. Everyone nearby is like, oh my God, there's something wrong with her. And so then as all that's happened and she's doing it, she was volunteering for these interviews, the police are still investigating, they find her secret diary. And that's where they find all the information about that guy, Robert Knickerbocker and her obsession with him and how she basically wanted to kill his wife when she still lived in Arizona and that this guy had no interest in children, thought it was inappropriate to be around her when she was with her children. And so clearly the motive was on the page. She killed her children so she could be her children. And so clearly the motive was on the page. She killed her

children so she could be with him. Right. Listen, don't have a secret diary unless you're going to kill someone. Like, it's the only people who have secret diaries are going to fucking kill someone. Yes. That's just evidence waiting to be found. Just think about it. Think through your thoughts. Don't write them down. So then a guy comes forward that says, because her story was she raced to the ER after this happened. A guy comes forward and says, I drove behind, she had a red Nissan. I drove behind a red Nissan that was going so slowly that my speedometer needle wasn't

coming off the peg. He said she was probably going seven miles an hour. And he had to pass her, came up behind her going so slow, had to pass her. And her story was she was racing there. She actually drove so slowly to ensure her children would bleed out because she could hear them moaning. I'm going to throw up. It's fucked. So she was arrested February 28th, 1984, like nine months later. And then during her trial, her daughter, Christy, the one who got scared when she came in the room had recovered enough and Christy testified

against her own mother. And told everybody there was no man in the street. My mom shot all of us through crying, you know, tears and everything testified against her own fucking mother. But here's the sweet part. Is there a sweet part, please? There is a couple. First of all, she was convicted. She got sentenced to life in prison plus 50 years. So she's never getting out. Good.

But she did get pregnant before the trial. So she was pregnant during the trial. By whom? A guy that she seduced on her mail route. So she knew she was going to get arrested. So she slept with this guy and got pregnant so that she could garner sympathy and look like, I would never do this. Look, I'm such a loving mother. I think you also get put in a better prison if you're pregnant. Yeah. You get treated way better. Right.

So, this is the quote that she had about being pregnant. I got pregnant because I miss Christy and I miss Danny and I miss Cheryl so much. You can't replace children, but you can replace the effect that they give you. And they give me love, they give me satisfaction, they give me stability, they give me a reason to live and a reason to be happy. You fucking can't, You fucking shot your children. And then she's going to make more. So that child was immediately taken away from her and put up for adoption.

And that girl never knew who her mother was until like recently. That's me. What if it's me? And then here's the beautiful part. The prosecuting attorney that sent her away adopted both Christy and Danny. His name is Danny, right? Yes. Adopted them both. Him and his wife, they're legally now their parents. I don't cry. I have no feelings in my heart. And I love that. Just fucking cry. Because it makes me so happy. Because they need so much. They need so much. Yes. They need so much. And that prosecutor from, he was the first one who was like, you need to get a therapist

with Christy and have the therapist with her all the time because at some point she's going to need to start talking about this and someone needs to be there and be ready for her. And so she just had like constant support and she like and they did it, they did right by these kids one time in one of these horrible stories. These kids got done right by. Even if they hadn't been shot, they got a better life than they would have had. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Apparently she was a narcissist, a sociopath, and a hysteric. Wow. So she must've been a nightmare mother. The kids said she hit them all the time. She's someone who in the 1800s would have been a good mother. You know what I mean? Like in Brooklyn in the fucking 1800s. It would have been like, well, she keeps her kids in line.

And would have never like, well, she keeps her kids in line, you know, and like would have never, would have never gotten to try it. That's right. She would have had like a funny name, like a, you know, bully Betty. Yeah, exactly. And then would have never. Oh, Mrs. Slappy. So that's the first one that like affected you? That was the first, I read that story. I can still remember the feeling of reading it and the whole description

of her turning around in the car and shooting the children and just being like, it was basically, I had an equal opposite thing of like, I realized this was a possibility. Right. I didn't ever have to consider, although my mom did own the book. So clearly she was interested in this situation. She's like learning about it. She might've been doing research. But it was just that thing of like that adults, just not to trust adults.

These are very hard lessons we both learned. And I wonder if they taught us what we started a podcast about, which is anything can fucking happen anytime and you need to be on guard for it at all times. And don't take things for granted or judge books by covers and don't do the things that average people get tricked by. Because this woman, it was like, she looked like Lady Di and she was like, I would never hurt my children. And everyone's like, okay. And if she herself had stopped doing interviews at that point, it may, I mean, who knows? They would have

had to prove everything else by evidence. I think it's funny that like my story is a dad story and yours is a mom story. And what it is, is that anyone is capable of anything. Anyone could be lying to you at all times. Also it's, we picked the worst dad and the worst mom was kind of, of all time. Yeah. But these are the things we remember as children. This is what you and I remember as children. Yeah. Yeah. Dude. Kindred fucking spirits.

Okay, we're back. Any updates, Karen? So now Diane Downs is in her late 60s. She's still incarcerated at Chowchilla, which is here in California. She's been denied parole multiple times, most recently in 2020. Okay, to wrap this up, let's listen to the outro of Our Bodies Are 12th. You know what's funny is so I wrote before we came over, I wrote like on the Facebook page like, you know, I was was right, we're about to record,

here's the topic, comment with your story. Which I think is so smart. Yes. It is really smart of you, Georgia. I am the smartest. But some people wrote things and I was quickly looking over them and one of them is yours. Is Dianne Downs? Dianne Downs is fucking in there.

Yay. Should I read a couple of peoples? Yes, please. Yes. And thank you for the people who are now running the Facebook page. Aren't there, didn't you say there's two people who are, what do you call it? Yeah, we have a couple of moderators. Moderators?

That's the word. I'm burping. Can you hear me burping? Or is that like... I didn't hear it. I saw you whip your head back. You think what's in your head and then you realize it's just belching. It's going straight into a microphone.

Sometimes you just don't even know. That's life. I'm going to read you a couple. Okay. You just made me want to die, but we're just going to keep going. So someone wrote, do you smell chicken soup right now? Do you think it was your burp? No.

No, I'm like a bloodhound working fucking smell shit. Really? Okay. Someone says, Zodiac, my mother had a book about him and I snuck it up. I snuck it at age 10 to read it. So that's, I think that's what happens. Yes, I do too. Oh, I just got a whiff of the chicken soup. Do you smell that? Yes, I do. How good is that? It smells really good.

I remember my mom took away my brother's copy of The Outsiders, which made me want to read it even more. Oh, I loved The Outsiders. Betty Broderick, hometown murderer, all over the news when I was 10 or 11. My dad's boss's daughter was murdered when I was around 15. Oh no. That started it all. Diane Downs, she shot her three kids and still to this day will and try to say a man on the road shot them. And there were six replies saying, yes, this

is the one. Yes. I read this book and I haven't seen the movie, but I think about it all the time. Oh, that's right. Farrah Fawcett stars in the Lifetime movie. Shut up. Yeah. Yeah. And Ryan O'Neil. Brilliant. Not actually a movie, but the a murder, but the spontaneous human combustion episode of Unsolved Murders. And then she said, actually, actual murder, probably Ed Gein. Ed Gein.

Ed Gein. That's a classic. But I remember that episode of Unsolved, is it Unsolved Mysteries? Because the picture they show is just this lady's legs. That's the only thing left. Sticking out of the chair that she combusted. Yes. It's amazing. If you actually look in spontaneous human combustion, it's actually really interesting that there might just be a friction of things in your pocket that lit on fire. But you're so gassy and fatty that you're basically a human candle.

Yeah. Oh no. I think you mean me specifically. I can shake the walls of my farts. Anywho. Someone wrote, Red Helter Skelter in seventh grade in 1982. Girl. Unsolved mystery in general was my gateway drug. And someone said, let's see. Yes. That number, the son of Sam got obsessed after the crazy John like was on the movie about it, which

shows how young people are. Summer of Sam. Yeah, that I was in. I was on speed when that movie came out and I couldn't watch John Leguizamo. He was real annoying. Someone said watching Silent Witness with my mom. Which one was that? Was that the Silent Witness? Someone said, you know, the Kara Homolko and Paul Bernardo that we've talked about before. Let's see here. The West Memphis Three.

Yeah. When I was in fourth grade, my friend's dad, perhaps foolishly, led us to the DHS of Paradise Lofts. No. The night of the slumber party. Oh, no. Oh, no. Fourth grade.

Honey. Yes. Too young. Honey, no. Oh,, honey. Oh no, fourth grade, it's just too young. Honey, no. Oh my Lord. Mimi. Cat is like, I'm going to step on the stop button. Let's see here. The clutter family from the, in cold blood. Yeah, that's heavy. Of course.

Son of Sam, my mom was a pretty girl in the seventies in New York. And she's, this person says New York in the 70s was an awful sounding and scary place while also being fascinating. I would go back in time and go there. Yeah, but you'd need an armored car. Yeah. Or to be like a punk rocker. Yeah. I just remember stumbling across the Dat line one night when I was in high school. Fuck yeah, dude. Lizzie Borden, Manson, Zodiac, another Lizzie Borden, Jonestown, West Memphis Three, Helter Skelter.

Helter Skelter? That's how you say it in Yiddish. All classics. All good kickoffs. I know a lot of Ted Bundy's. I thought there'd be many more. I guess he's a bit old for this group. All classics, all good kickoffs. Not a lot of Ted Bundy's, I thought there'd be many more. I guess he's a bit old maybe for this group. There are some more Ann Roles.

She just like rolls. She Ann Roles. She was the greatest. And those books, she just wrote books that were so easy to read. They were easy. Like Stephen King books that were like, this is intense and complicated, but I don't feel stupid. And also she's made single one-off murders interesting, which I never was interested

in, but we're getting behind the mentality of a person who killed their wife or whatever. I need to go back and reread a couple of those because in my mind now, I'm too sophisticated and I don't care and I don't want to know about Ted Bundy anymore. I know everything, but if she's such a great writer, then I should just be able to go through it. Yes. Well, and also her Ted Bundy that's a stranger beside me is great because it's her first person account of working with Ted Bundy. How stoked is she that that happened to her though? She's a little stoked. For real. And she is in, if you look up Dying Downs, she's interviewed in

that 2020. No way. She's still alive back then. She's since past. She's the best interviewer. She's like someone's sassy mom. Can we do a book club and like read one of them together? Like one we haven't read before. Okay. I'm actually really interested in the Lacey Peterson case. You're not.

No, I am. That was in your area. It was in Modesto, which is very, it's in the East Valley, basically, Central Valley, East Bay. Like there's no way he didn't do it, right? Oh, he 100% did it. It's so, it's so gross. This is the New Simpsons.

It is. Oh, and how many people, I loved how many people wrote to us because they're going to do a true version, not like OJ, but a real version of JonBenet. And we had maybe 10 different people going, you guys, have you seen this? Which made me so happy. This is our Super Bowl, Karen. Yes, it really is. I know we said this before, but we need to watch this together.

We need to have special episodes that you can... We'll all watch it together. We'll all watch it together. That's actually a great idea. Because you know, our friend Joe DeRosa and Pat Walsh, they have a horror movie podcast where they watch the movie and talk during it. And it's so hilarious because you can watch the movie yourself, but then you can watch it with people. It's as if you have two friends that are dominating

the conversation. You can watch wrestling does that too, but they'll watch like, they'll watch WrestleMania 4 and just fucking talk about it. And there's like silent moments in it and it's fine because we're all watching it together. Yeah. I mean, but you and I won't shut up. We'll get high first. I won't be able to. Yeah. I'll be talking a lot. Should I edit that out? What? That we're going to get high?

Well, we could do whatever we want. The only way I yell at television is when I'm high. And it's pretty fucking funny. I remember because I watched the Oscars with you. One of the greatest. Oh, it's funny. Screaming. Wait, we do have a, I have a corrections corner moment. Oh, right. Because someone, a couple people wrote this and I was so embarrassed, but it also made me laugh. I like cry laugh.

I can't wait. I do not think that Manitoba is a city in Canada. I know I said it, the way I said it made it sound like that. Although I can't claim to know, inherently know the geography of Canada. I do. No one said that, made it sound like that. Although I can't claim to know, inherently know the geography of Canada. I do. No one said that, did they? It was the way I said it because I said the bus went from Brandon to Manitoba. Oh, and someone's like, it's not half an hour.

That's like saying it goes from Las Vegas to California, or essentially. Everyone calm down. Well, but just so people know. But I mean, at the same time, if it's written in Wikipedia, I'm reading it to you and I'm not going to double check anything. Listen, this is not clearly the most researched podcast. Manitoba is a province and I know that. Okay. Right now I am looking up the word whore in our My Favorite Murder Gmail.

Cool. Because I needed to find the email that said notes and resources about sex workers in episode 10. Oh. So someone named Sam wanted us to know that, I know that neither of you are involved in sex work. Thanks, Sam. You don't know that.

So I figured I would just let you in on a few things. First off, a lot of sex workers and people in the quote, adult industries take a lot of justified offense at the word prostitute, which is another way of saying whore, which obviously doesn't fly. Some prefer to be called escorts, but overall calling people involved with sex works, sex workers is really the right option, which I did feel there were some people pointing out that the right option, which I did feel there were some people pointing out that like, we were like, kind of rude. I was kind of rude about sex work and I want to clear it up. So this person said, the way the quote work is highlighted that it's a job that should be considered as normal as being a paralegal or construction worker. Furthermore, most cops really don't

give a fuck about sex workers in any capacity. This extends to people in porn as well. That is why safety and clarity and communication and a level of protection are inseparable in sex work and why hearing about a male porn actor raping and harassing female co-stars is just as, if not more jarring than hearing about another piece of trash serial killer.

That said, there are really good resources out there for people in sex work that offer help and advice for awful situations that may arise. I highly recommend SWOPUSA.org and sexworkersproject.org for anyone in sex work. I just wanted to clear that up. I said something about how no one chooses to be a prostitute. And I understand that it is so much bigger than that. And I feel bad for saying that. Well, and I like the fact that we have listeners that then send us constructive information because that's very true. And we've said it a million times, but to people having conversations about something that we're interested in, we definitely make mistakes constantly.

And so anytime you hear any of that, especially if it's something that you take offense to or that you think we need education on, we are happy and open to hear about it. Especially because nothing terrible has happened to us, either of us. It's not like we're saying this from experience. We haven't had our fucking sister or a cousin or whoever get murdered. Yeah. We're a little more flippant about it than we would be if these things had happened to us. Right. Exactly. And we just have the of the... We have just the interest from distance and that's the reason that we can take the take that we have, but we also in no way want to offend people.

No. Or, and we certainly aren't judging anybody at all. And we absolutely would never judge a victim of any crime. And this guy made a good point, which is like you guys have, we have a platform that we can announce these things. And so we're lucky and we should do it. And I totally agree. And I don't want to seem flippant about sex work being like a lark, or like not a big deal or not a choice, which is choice. And it doesn't mean that you're a bad person or... No, not at all. And if you get yourself into a situation, it's great that... I mean, that's

a beautiful way to end that email, which is here's some constructive like a direction someone can go if they want to go in that direction. Totally. So they do have options. I agree. Very cool. Yay. I feel like this was a more serious episode of My Favorite Murder.

It's kind of like personal. Well, because it was kind of about us of My Favorite Murder. This got me personal. Well, because it was kind of about us. It was about us. A little bit. I mean, these are the things that fucked us up. These are the reasons this podcast exists. I have to say, it definitely fucked me up, but it also... I was also thrilled to understand.

I feel like I was raised very, I kept away from the realities of life. Both of my parents were blue collar workers. My dad's a fireman, my mom's a nurse. So they saw a lot of the bad stuff of life and they wanted to keep my sister and I so far away from it. And it drove me crazy because I think I always had the sense of like, there's more going on than they're telling me. So every time I would find an and rule book or I would read an article or whatever, I felt like I was getting one more piece of like what's really going on. And I think that that's another way to look at

it and maybe a good way to look at it too. It's just like, as we said a million times, it's almost like the more information you have and the more you know, the better off you are. Yeah. Like the adult, we are as children, I think children especially understand that the adult world is something we don't totally get. And we're always like, as children are trying to understand it. And so we know someone's hiding something from us. And we're always like, as children are trying to understand it. And so we know someone's hiding something from us. And we know like when something happens, our parents react to it and we can sense it.

We want to know, like you and I are curious fucking people. Some people aren't. I think the people who are into murder and into true crime are curious fucking people who want to know the dark side, even if they know that it's going to ruin them a little bit. Yeah. Because it's almost like the option. It's like better that than not knowing. And some people are like, I just don't want to know, which completely makes sense.

But I've never been that person. I've always talked to my therapist, like how great it would be just to be like a fucking, I want to just live my life in suburbia and be unaware of all the awful things that can happen. And I wish, I really truly wish I wanted to be that way. But you don't. But I'm so fucking happy I'm not. Me too. Cause then we get to do this.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We're dark and it's okay. Hi. Hey, Karen. Hey. Well, this has been episode 12 of My Favorite Murder. Yeah. Yeah. We're dark and it's okay. Hi. Hey, Karen. Hey. Well, this has been episode 12 of My Favorite Murder. Thanks for listening.

Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe. Please do that, you guys. That helps us a lot. And we're doing so crazy great. Our numbers are huge and it's because of you guys. So thank you so much for listening. Totally. Go to feralaudio.com and buy your Amazon shit from there and listen to other podcasts and

tell them how much you love us. And of course, don't forget to stay sexy. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Bye. Bye. I think in this episode, if I'm not mistaken, we start talking about starting an Ann Rule Book Club. Definitely. Gave that up immediately. I mean, I think we should do it. I think that sounds super fun. And also, you know, the Ann Rule people just sent us a big box of her books.

They did. I took one that I hadn't read. So did I. Oh my god. Maybe we'll just do any Anne Rule book that you haven't read. We should all read. Yeah. Okay. But we have to figure more structure out for it, so it's actually a club. Like when do you drink the wine?

When do you stop talking about the book and start gossiping about the people that you work with? What's the level of cheese we're talking about here? I think it's high-bree. High. High-bree? High-bree always. It's like, what will we do? Like on the main episode, there's a part where we just stop the main episode and then it's like, sounds like a cocktail party in the background. And we're like, it's book club time.

Ding ding ding ding ding. So what did everyone think? And then we just have a blank, like, 17 minutes. So that's where you can say your response. It's interactive. It's the first interactive podcast. Holy shit, I love it. And we'll just go, mm-hmm, a couple times throughout. Wow, interesting take. I'll go, no. Go fuck yourself. Is there any more white wine? I need to leave this room spiritually.

We also, I guess, first figured out about each other, that we were both latchkey kids. Oh, yeah. Which was interesting that, like, maybe that's why we, like, knew each other when we met each other, we were both latchkey kids. Oh yeah. Which was interesting that like, maybe that's why we like knew each other when we met each other, like bonded. It was like, of course we were. We're so trauma bonded, it's insane. It's insane. We had all the things, okay?

Yeah, just on either side of the state. Yeah, exactly. So just to remind everyone, and I bet you those day one listeners heard this in this rewind, but Georgia for the first time says, here's the thing, fuck everyone in this episode. And so of course, that's become one of our, what is it called?

A slogan? What is it? Yeah, a slogan. A saying? A saying. Most popular on merch too. People fucking love it. It's the best.

You guys love wearing shirts with the F word on it, you crazy kids. It's fun, you punk rockers. So we're going to re-release our old school, here's the thing, fuck everyone design that everyone loves. Go to MyFavoriteMurder.com to check it out. So we'll have like a shirt. I think there's other stuff. Yeah, check it out.

Yeah. On MyFavoriteMurder.com. There's already been, it's not a true re-release, but it's like kind of here's what we did the first time. Yeah, and it's not a true re-release, but it's like kind of, here's what we did the first time. Yeah, and it's fucking cute. Yeah. Oh, so, I mean, it's hard to beat our original title. Yeah.

It's really a good title, but it's just the fun of what could it have been doing the way we do it, which is, it's something we say within the episode. What was the bullshit spoken? Well, here's the thing, of course, could have been one. Yeah. Oh, I said to Georgia, of course, could have been one. Yeah. Oh, I said to Georgia, were you a latchkey child as well? And then I lost my mind. Sides and sides, what we'd order at Musso and Frank when we hit, you know, something.

I think I said she and ruled, which is very catchy. She did. And this is our Super Bowl. Yeah. The John Bida Ramsey documentary coming out is our Super Bowl. Yeah. The John Benet-Ramsey documentary coming out is our Super Bowl. I stand by that. I still agree. I think also that saying, that kind of joke that

you made was like the lightning point of people being like, that's right. That's it. Like we do this and we have this and we should be able to join together. Right. And I'm supposed to understand the Super Bowl, but I don't and I don't care. And I think that you guys all going crazy about your actual Super Bowl is a little silly.

And I'm not interested in anything but the snacks and the beer. And so that's ours. And you can't make fun of us either. Right. And you actually might even have to come and be a drag along and start getting interested in what your lady likes. That's right. Or your beloved significant other, whoever it is, your man. You have to watch the documentary. We will bring snacks. We will provide snacks. And we can all wear jerseys. Our My Favorite Murder t-shirts are our jerseys.

That's right. That's right. We've done it all for you. We've actually structured how you can be a fan and we're working on the details of how to be the best kind of fan. Always. That's all we've ever done is you know how detail-oriented we are. Oh my god, just organized. We have Excel spreadsheets. You have to see it. Thanks for listening to another episode of Rewind. This is so fun. We're just gonna keep doing this if you guys are into it and you seem to be and we appreciate that so much. It gets easier every week because the show gets better every week. So we don't have as much to cringe about and be worried about. But thanks

for always being there and stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?