My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark - Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 21: Because 7 8 9

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 21: Because 7 8 9, when Karen covered the Cleveland Elementary School Shootings by Brenda Spencer and Georgia discussed serial killer Jane Toppan. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode!   Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder   Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes/rewind-with-karen-georgia-episode-21-because-7-8-9 My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories, and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And welcome. To Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is the show where we take you back to good old 2016 to revisit some of our very first episodes and talk about everything that's changed since and everything that's kind of fucking stayed the same. I mean, there's a lot of repeats. There's a lot of consistency. So today we are revisiting our 21st episode.

We titled it because 789, a beloved childhood joke for everybody, except for the number nine. It's a classic. And now, because of Rewind, we can all be day one listeners. Are you ready? Are you ready to get into this? Episode 21, we're of age now. I mean, at this point, I think we, in the podcast back then, we probably really think we know what we're doing.

21 under our belt. Ah, we're getting going. Things are looking up for us. We're really getting it together. All right. Let's listen to part of our intro for episode 21. Let's get settled in. Well, all right.

Let's get cozy and comfy, light some candles. Oh, did you start? I think this is it. I think this is the last episode. Do I normally talk like that, Karen? Kind of presentationally? Cozy and comfy. Georgia, are you seducing me in your own home?

Oh, welcome. Hi. This is my favorite murder. Karen is taking a drink of water. I'm Georgia. I don't know that every once in a while a hey comes out. It feels like I have to do it sometimes. Like I don't have a choice.

Get it out of your system. Hey. Bye. Bye. Welcome to episode 21 of the podcast that rocks you to sleep at night and then shocks you awake at 3 a.m. with bad feelings. And yet you still want to be friends with it.

We've become, we're now a sleep helping podcast. We're like the podcast sleep with me that I'm obsessed with, except we'll make you stay awake all night. That's right. So it's for people who don't want to fall asleep ever again. Are you a night shift security guard? Yeah. You might want to listen to this podcast. Do you have manic depression and you're just going to be up all night anyways?

Then jump on board. Do you have a colicky baby? Are you a murderer? A serial killer? Are you a burglar? Are you a cat burglar? Let us sneak along the rooftops with you. We'd love to. Let's do it. Goodbye. I worked today as most Americans did. Not me.

But you did do something. No. Really? Were you in that outfit all day? Not this one. This is actually cuter than what I was wearing all day. And this is a fucking house dress. Georgia has a house dress on that looks like something from Bewitched, but hotter.

It's like a casual key party outfit. It's like a tomato red with gold brocade sleeveless mini house dress. I mean, they don't make them like that anymore. Karen, I'm trying to seduce you. Girl. You were correct. Girl, it's working. I don't need a house dress. I just need murder stories. Yay.

That's the sad truth of it. I'm trying to think of like, have I've ever been to a party or a situation where a guy has talked about this topic we love so much, kind of brought it up themselves. Like you've bonded, you've been like, I had the best conversation with this guy last night. Right. Like across a crowded room. Yeah. Gosh.

Gersh. I don't think so. I know neither. What is happening over there? Kev's just playing with these. There's a kitten in the room. Everyone should know this. Georgia's upping the cat factor by 1000 with a kitten named Kevin. Oh my God. And he's being very loud right now, but he's so cute. He's super, he looks, Georgia won't admit that she bought a purebred cat. It's not a purebred, not by adopt don't shop.

God damn it. This cat looks so purebred though. It's weird. He's a Lynx Point Siamese. He's purebred. However, he was found, I don't know, let's say in a dumpster. Let's say in a tiny cat size dumpster. A tiny cat size dumpster.

He was bottle fed. He was bottle fed by a raccoon. A cat burglar stole him from a purebred breeding place and is now adopting them out. And then a family of frogs that were vests raised him down by a pond. Oh yeah, stop it. That's so cute. The mom accepted them as her baby. And Kevin wrote on the mom frogs back until they were like, this hurts. I got to get rid of this. There's George's house. Let's drop them off.

And they put their lily pad right up. Am I hallucinating? Are we both high? Neither of us got high before this. This is adding to the sleep podcast. Oh, meandering stories, meandering stories. We're going to try to add along with all the horrible visuals that we feed straight into your brain. We're also adding some fun toad in a vest visuals. Yeah, some like, some like acid visuals, some fucking, let's say you're on peyote. Have you ever done peyote? No.

Is that a thing people do? Oh God. I've never been offered peyote in my life. I don't, don't you have to go to the Andes or something to get that shit? I've never been offered peyote in my life. Don't you have to go to the Andes or something to get that shit? Sure. Or... Ayahuasca? Be friends with Duncan Trussell or something? I am friends with him.

Oh, I am. Name drop. Sorry if you can't handle it. Are you? Yeah. If you can't handle it, are you? Are you? Uh, yeah. Okay, we're back. I do remember the red house dress. You do.

Orangey red house dress I was wearing. It's in tatters now, but I don't get rid of anything, so I'm pretty certain I still have it. Pull that box out of the attic and let's make a quilt out of your old house dress. Unfortunately I don't have the foster kitten Kevin anymore. What a cutie he was. Kevin! He was so cute.

I just kept trying to introduce kittens into Elvis's life because I just, but every time it would like, he'd be like, what are you doing? I'm an elderly man already. He's like, no, this is not how this works and I am absolutely in charge of this household. Right. So three cats in an apartment wasn't going to happen, which is probably for the best. I mean, yeah. Looking back, right, it's so clear.

Yeah. But at the time you were just kind of trying to be like, hey, there are a lot of homeless kittens out there. I want to help them. Yeah. And like, if my cats aren't cuddling, I'm just going to keep introducing other cats until someone starts fucking cuddling. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I just, I'm just going to keep introducing other cats until someone starts fucking cuddling. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't, I just want to see two animals snuggling. And for some reason, I have this like magnetic forced cats that don't cuddle with each other. I feel like don't cats kind of have to be related to cuddle? No, no, no, no. Oh my God, no. Don't get me started on this. It's going to make me cry. Okay.

It's just more personality time? It's personality. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm going more personality type. It's personality, yeah. Okay. Okay, I'm gonna cry. Yeah, no crying yet. Not yet. Not about that. This is also when we both, I guess, start to say hi or hi. Hi.

That's close to the intro, but not exactly. No, and I think the reason we kind of adjusted it is because hi was actually a quote from Alaska from Drag Race, and we didn't want to be like fully ripping off someone's actual you know intro I don't know intro greeting whatever sure that's really noble of us I mean we're that's what we're like we're just really good people deep down. Truly as all podcasters are it's kind of a rule okay so this episode we both do, we don't talk about it, but we both end up doing female killers.

Yes. Just randomly. I think it's really funny, in this one, I'm asking you, did you start recording? Because you know. Again, you're the sound man, or woman, sound person, but it's that kind of thing where like, you don't, I don't even know, like we don't know what's going on to the point where it's not like you're going and here we go.

Right. It's just like, wait, did we start? Did we? I don't know. Is this going? Do we have equipment? Is it on? I don't know.

I don't know because I don't do that for a living. Right. It's just like how you started our line of merch and just kept a little tally on a piece of paper. You don't do that for a living. You guys, this was like homegrown punk rock from the very beginning. We didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't for a long time, but we acted like it and that's what's key.

And you know what? You acted like it and that was what truly brought it all together because, Jesus Christ, there were reasons to not. AMT. Absolutely. MS. Yeah. AMT. Absolutely. There's always reasons to not. MS. Yeah. AMT. And that's why you keep going.

MS. Okay. So, now we're going to get into the actual stories. And Georgia went first on this episode. So, let's listen to Georgia's story about the Cleveland Elementary School shootings. Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo And that's why we're excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder, a science-backed, healthy hot cocoa for sleep. Other sleep aids can cause next-day grogginess, but Dream contains a powerful, all-natural blend of reishi, magnesium, l-tianine, apigenin, and melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. Check out Beam's limited-time holiday flavors like white peppermint mocha and gingerbread. Get them before they sell out. Despite all the stress and busyness this time of year, Beam can help you get 8 hours

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Whether it's for grandparents who adore seeing the grandkids' latest antics, or a friend who loves capturing every moment, the Skylight Frame is the perfect gift to bring joy and connection into any home. The simple, user-friendly design is perfect for parents and grandparents, allowing them to enjoy the magic of seeing new photos appear instantly without all the complicated technology. You can even preload your favorite photos before gifting the frame so when your loved one powers it up, it's ready to enjoy right away. Photos can be added easily via the free Skylight mobile app or by email. No account or subscription needed, so everyone can contribute to the frame. The 10-inch color

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Sometimes I'll post really goofy photos so she knows it's from me because that's what I'm like or post photos of the cats because those are her grandchildren in my eyes, you know? You're staying connected. Yeah. For a limited time get 20% off your purchase of a Skylight Frame when you go to ca.skylightframe.com slash mfm. That's 20% off your purchase of a Skylight Frame when you go to ca.skylightframe.com slash MFM. That's 20% off your purchase of a skylight frame when you go to ca.skylightframe.com slash MFM. That's ca.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky.sky. back in. Hey, ready? And stop skipping now.

Now. All right. So two things made me want to do this murder, my favorite murder this week. One of which was I finished an audio book called We Need to Talk About Kevin. Oh. Which was a book about, it was a book written, fictional book written by the mother of a kid who had done a school shooting. And it was the letter to, it was the whole, all the letters were to the father and it

was like how they raised this kid and what happened and why he became who he became. It was a really good book. And I just finished that. And then on Sunday morning, the fucking Orlando shootings happened. And it's horrific and awful and disgusting. And so I kind of was looking at the Facebook page and found this information that I had never known about before that I wanted to talk about, the Cleveland Elementary School shooting. Do you know this one? No.

Okay. It took place on January 29th, 1979 in San Diego, California. Shots were fired at a public elementary school and the person who was doing the shooting lived in a house across the street from the school and her name was Brenda Spencer. She was 16 years old. Holy shit, Brenda. Yep, there is the fucking... Wait, can I ask a question? Is this I don't like Monday? I don't like Monday. I'm sorry.

It's the Boomtown Rats. Yes. Is that... Sorry. It's okay. It's fucking interesting. I was just so proud. It's my favorite. But I don't know the story. I only know that a girl did it and a girl said it. Okay.

So, Brenda Spencer, she lived in a house across the street from the school and she would become known as the mother of schoolyard massacres such as Columbine. She was like the first school shooter. So, on the morning of January 29th, 1979, she began shooting from her home at children who were waiting outside Cleveland Elementary School, which was across from her house. The first person that she killed was the principal, Burton Rag, and he was opening the gates to the school. 53 years old, ran outside to help the victims and help get rid of the children and move them inside and he got shot in the chest. And then Michael, I want to say, Shooter, S-U-C-H-A-R, Shooter? Nicole Soule-Pedro-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez-Sanchez- He was a school custodian, rushed out to help the dying principal and he was shot.

So those were the two fatalities, but eight children were injured. So then the San Diego police officer, Robert Robb, was the first to arrive at the scene and he got a bullet in his neck. And I've heard conflicting, I've read conflicting stories that he, someone moved, commandeered a garbage truck and drove it in front of the school because they could tell where the sniper was. And I heard it was this officer who got shot in the neck, but others are saying he just arrived and got shot in the neck. So I'm not sure, but I don't want to not give him credit if that's the case.

That's so smart. Yeah, right? Yeah. Like what a quick action to take that you just block the shooter. Yeah, I would have never thought of that. And putting yourself in harm's way like that. Yeah, that's amazing. Whoever thought of it, yeah, high five. How pissed off was she when that happened? Yeah. It's like the best move. Yeah. So after firing 30 rounds of ammunition, Spencer barricaded herself inside her home for like, it was like

six hours. So then on a hunch, a reporter from a local paper called the phone number that was associated with the address and a young girl answered. It was Barbara. The reporter asked if she knew where the shots were coming from and she said her address. And the reporter pointed that out. She said, yeah, who do you think's doing the shooting? And the next question was why? And she said, I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day.

Oh, I weirdly have chills right now. Chills. Cause also, sorry, but 16, Yeah. It's such a rough age anyway. And that answer is so sad. It's someone that gave up. It's someone that doesn't understand the levity of what they're doing.

Is that the right word? It's the opposite, but I understand gravity of what you're doing. Gravity of what they're doing. That would have sounded so much better if I had gotten that word right. This is what we're about, not sounding good. My favorite murder. She spoke with police negotiators who were telling them that she had shot, telling those they had made easy targets and that's why she'd shot them, which

is so fucking creepy. And she was going to come out shooting, but ultimately she surrendered. And the police found beer and whiskey bottles around the house, but she didn't appear to be intoxicated. Oh, so this is probably not the greatest home life, perhaps. Right. Well, 14 years into her sentence, she gave this TV interview, which she said that she was high on whiskey, angel dust, and pot.

What? Hold on. That combination is insane. But here's the thing is that at the time of her arrest, her toxicology reports came back clean. So is she lying? Either she's lying or the toxicology reports were incorrect. And keep in mind, she's saying these things at a parole hearing. So it wouldn't get her anything to lie? No, it wouldn't get her out. I mean, you would think that if she was lying, it would be a

prank. Oh, like that's her excuse. Yes. Okay. But however, there were those bottles around the house because her dad was like a fucking alcoholic. But sorry, it's just so crazy. I just think, sure, you drink whiskey and then you smoke pot. Angel dust is like what insane bikers do.

In San Diego. That was like a suburb back then, right? Yeah. I mean, it's like a chill beach town. And like- It's like, I was talking about like, has anyone ever offered you peyote? No. And they haven't ever offered you angel dust? No. Like you could barely get pot when I was growing up. That was like, you were so excited when someone's cousin came back from Hawaii or whatever.

And it was almost like there was this problem. Remember D.A.R.E. was that? Did you have that then? So D.A.R, DARE was, what was it? Dare to keep your kids off drugs. Drug addicts really engaged. I know mothers again start driving. Basically, in the 80s and early 90s, there was this program to keep kids off drugs called DARE. I'm on drugs. It really feels like it. I'm on drugs. And I was in that.

I was like in the perfect, you know, in the epicenter of that. Thanks, Nancy Ray. And it made me- Where you had to pledge, right? Yeah. That you wouldn't do drugs. Yeah. And at the time I was like, when I was like in sixth grade, I was like, well, I'm never

going to do angel dust, but I kind of want to try pot, you know? But like I thought that would lead to angel dust. And when I found out like that my parents smoked pot and that like people I knew smoked pot, it was like, Oh, everything's a lie. So I'm just going to do everything. You know, wow, just say something. Yeah, like no one gets angel dust is my point. Exactly. It's a crazy unless her father was some kind of like dealer or a biker or like somebody that kind of lives in that fringe life. But when you do angel dust, you go insane and

you have superhuman strength and... It sounds like something she would have made up because she didn't know. You know what I mean? It sounds like a very fakey dumb combination. Yeah. Like saying cocaine would have made more sense, but she probably didn't even know to say that. Although if we refer back to the classic film Friday, there is that part where Chris Tucker's pot is laced with angel dust and he ends up in the pigeon coop. Remember? He's like freaking

out. I mean, it happens, but I also don't think you'd be able to shoot a gun very accurately if you were on Angel Dust. Also, why would someone put Angel Dust in pot? You're just spending more money. Because they're trying to ruin your Rolling Stones concert. Oh, sure. I don't know. Kitten is going crazy. Okay. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. So her parents had separated before this happened and she lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, in virtual poverty and they slept on a single mattress in the living room floor.

Together. Yeah. Acquaintances later said that Spencer, that she expressed negative attitudes towards police and had talked about shooting one. Teachers described her as introverted and she started hanging out with other troubled youth and became obsessed with Alice Cooper. Which actually, he's like a crazy intellectual. It's so hard to think about people using him as an excuse. And he's like an incredible intellectual. And also, isn't he super into golf?

When he doesn't have makeup on, he's just like kind of an old dude with too long hair at the golf course. And that was like performance art too. Like, he wasn't even serious about it. Yeah, but I don't, when people try to say that, it's like too bad. You're making the money off of people taking it seriously. So you have to take it seriously because it's a, I've seen Alice Cooper, like I grew up with Alice Cooper being on TV with blood in the corner of his mouth.

Everyone took it seriously. There's nothing performance art about it. It's not like you're in a black box theater. Yeah. You can't be like, just kidding afterwards. Yeah. Okay. I'm really mad at Alice Cooper.

I can tell. Is that your father? I hate you, dad. I hate you. I will go to the dance. All right. So in December, which is the month before this whole shooting happened, a psychiatric evaluation was recommended for her and they said that she should go to a mental hospital

due to her depressed state. But her father refused to give permission. I wanted to go to rehab. I said, no, no. Dad says it's fine. Everything's fine. Look at me, I'm fine. In three months, I'm dead. So is everybody else. Right. I love that song. But so, yeah, I do too. For Christmas, so he said no, he wouldn't let her go to rehab. And then for Christmas, he gave her a Ruger 1022 semi-automatic 22 caliber rifle. Sorry for everyone who fucking knows about guns, but I just butchered that. With a telescope sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. She had asked for a radio. Her father gave her that gun. She asked for a radio for her birthday and her dad who had just been told that she should

go to psychiatric care. A mental hospital. Because she was depressed, gave her a gun. Well, he's a real piece of work. I mean, some people shouldn't have children, it turns out. That's heavy. And she said later that I felt like he wanted me to kill myself. She said.

Also 500 rounds? Yeah, that's a lot. I agree. Yeah. In 2001 later, she accused her father of having drunkenly subjected her to beatings and sexual abuse. But he said the allegations were not true. I don't feel good about a single mattress on the floor in the living room. Absolutely not. She was tried and as an adult, she finally came out with her, put her gun down, came out. She was tried as an adult,, she finally came out with her, put her gun down, came

out. She was tried as an adult, pled guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon, sentenced to prison for 25 years to life. And then in prison, she was diagnosed as an epileptic. Oh, I have that. I know. Uh-oh. Wait. And then she received medication while at California Institute for Women in Chino. California, that's her neighborhood, right? No. Great. But then later, here's the fucking kicker. During tests while she was in custody,

it was discovered that she had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain attributed to her accident on her bicycle. Sucking. Childhood head injury. Send him back like we said last time. Send him on back. If your kid hits his head.

Oh, you know what? I just had a realization that all of the helmet bullshit that for years I've been like, this is dumb and these helicopter parents are crazy. What if they've just wiped out an entire generation of serial killers by making sure children have helmets on all the time? Definitely. Dude. I thought you're right.

That's heavy. That's so heavy. I mean, some will slip through just because it was meant to be. Sure. Some don't even need an injury. They're just like, there's some shit to begin with. They're hell bent. Yeah. Their parents make it sure that they're fucking just terrible. That is a crazy fucking story. Right, Andrie, just like so many serial killers out there.

Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. All right. At a hearing in 2001, she said that her father beat and sexually abused her. And she submitted a written statement in which she said that her father had began fondling her when she was nine and sexually assaulted her virtually every night. Which is like, why, you know, why didn't you come out with that earlier? I don't want to doubt her, but it's like,

that's a hard thing to talk about when you really did these horrible things. Also, she could have just maybe dissociated so that it was this, she's in this world now where she's killing people. It's like everything is a cry for help. And maybe she was on angel dust. And maybe she didn't understand the connection between her father sexually abusing her and her wanting to die and so killing people. And kill other people, the rage that she felt. I didn't mean to victim blame. And I totally, I believe her. No, no, no, no. We're just talking about theories. And here's how you, here's, so the father never admitted to any of this, but he was

visiting her in a juvenile detention facility after her arrest. And he met a girl who resembled Brenda, but was younger. They went on to have a sexual relationship and he married her. So clearly he has a fetish for fucking underage girls that look like his daughter. Yeah. He's not against it. Nope. That's like enough proof, I feel like.

Hell yeah. That it's true. That's insanely dark. In 2009, the parole board ruled that she would be denied parole and wouldn't be considered for 10 years. So she'll be eligible again in 2019. But in a 2001 statement, she acknowledged her possible role as the inspiration for later generations of angry kids saying, she said, quote, with every school shooting, I feel I'm partially responsible. What if they got the idea from what I did?

And of course, finally, the song, I Don't Like Mondays written by Bob Geldof for his band Boomtown Rats was released later that year based on that song. And I just want to go ahead and say that this is, everyone listening, this is our new karaoke song. I don't like Mondays. That song, I remember in high school finding out that that was about a girl that did a school shooting and it was just like the most fascinating thing to me. It changes that song completely.

I just assumed it was British though, since Boomtown Rats and thatats and that guy, or he's Irish. He's not from here. I think he's Irish. He is not from here. But yeah, I just assumed it all happened in the UK. I'll safely say that. Yeah, I know. But they were playing at the time in San Diego, I think. When her trial was going on, they were playing in San Diego. Oh, wow. So they kept seeing headlines of her being the, I don't like Mondays girl. See that super bums me out because, and maybe this is just a bias because it's a female shooter. It's like a 16 year old girl where I just so understand the mindset no matter

what. But then fact after fact on top of that is like that girl did not have a chance. No. She didn't have a chance. I wish she had had, you know, clearly some people cared about her that they took her to a psychiatrist and that they put her in like a school for, or they put her in with counselors who were there for troubled youth. They tried. Yeah. And they're fucking shitty parents. Just wouldn't

let her have that. Like what if he had said okay and she had gone to this mental institution? She would have been fine. Also it's so, I just would like to remind us all of the garbage truck part because I really liked that part. What a badass. Hell yeah. They probably saved so many lives that day. Seriously, and just kind of like blocking off the whole thing of like, no,

this you're not doing it anymore. Like that's so bad. It's brave and fucking. It's just quick thinking and like sharp problem solving. Totally. I like it. Um, well that's heavy. Yeah. That's fucked up, right? So that's the, uh, Cleveland elementary school shooting. Yeah, we're back.

That was heavy. That was... This is one of the stories, especially in California, that's just like, can't believe this actually happened. Well, it sucks so bad. I mean, we'll say this till our fucking faces turn red, but the fact that this happened in 1979, we're talking about, I'm talking about it in 2016 and it's still a topic that we must discuss and happens all the fucking time. I will say based on

the details of this case, I do think the father would have been held accountable nowadays. And I really like that the parents of shooters are being treated as perpetrators as they should be. So this father who, allegedly abusive father, who bought her a very depressed daughter that he refused to let get treatment, then bought her a gun, a semi-automatic rifle for Christmas when she had asked for a radio. Like, he should be held responsible. So should she, of course. But...

Yeah. No, no. You're right. You can track how this happened and how clearly it was a path that could have been diverted multiple times. I do want to say, though, back then, but especially now, the idea, it's like, whoever's responsible on that end, our leadership and politicians in this country who have politicized this event like it is one side against another. Yeah. Or it's political at all. That it's political at all as opposed to we are letting children die at public schools, we are letting teachers and children get murdered at school is, it's reprehensible and insane, and it has to stop. And just this, it's the idea of like this concept has gone so far, and we have been forced to get, we have gotten used to it. It is crazy. Other countries look at us

and go, this is disgusting. Yeah. Well, what's so crazy too is that it's become a conversation. The manipulative people do this thing where they make the conversation about something else. So you're yelling about this when really that's not what it's about. It's not about gun rights. They politicized it and made us start yelling about gun rights when really that's not what

this is about. This is about children not being slaughtered. You know what I mean? Like, when you're up here having the wrong conversation, the right conversation never gets brought up. Right. And I think it's like they're saying, you cannot have any adjustments on this because any adjustment is a betrayal of my experience. A violation, somehow. Well, as a woman in the year 2024, let me talk to you about rights being violated,

left, right, and center. Truly. Like, no. You've got to make adjustments. And the idea that you don't want to, to the detriment of children just trying to learn. Like, you know, my sister and I have had multiple conversations. She has been a grammar school teacher for 30 years.

She teaches first graders, like, shooter drills and lockdown drills. It's a part of her life. And it's absolutely disgusting. It's like that kind of thing where we should stop adjusting to it and normalizing it. Okay, so does this case get getting back to the story you just told? Does this case have any updates now? It does. So in August of 2022, Brenda Spencer waived her right to a parole hearing until 2025, which I guess some people do because they believe they won't be able to get parole anyway. So at the moment, now it's 2024, she's still incarcerated at the California Institute for

Women in Chino, California, but she'll have another parole hearing next year. Yeah, I mean, I think in the story you say that she is known as like the grandmother of school shootings. Yeah. So I'm sure she's like, I'm probably not ever going to get out of here. Well, she does talk about that. I think I mentioned that, you know, that every time she hears about a school shooting, she's like, I am somehow also responsible for this.

So it does seem like she has some remorse. Oh. All right. So now it's your story. This might be one of the like first times you were like, let's do an old timey story. So we're not like, so it's not so fresh. This is the kind of thing where it's like,

clearly we're starting to process what we're doing, how we're doing it, the effect of it, all of those things, which is pretty interesting too. I mean, part of the reason it's kind of hard to look back. And then it's also kind of interesting because it's like, well then how do you pivot if you're like, this is a concern I have all the time because, you know, we don't want to make mistakes that we made in the early days.

And so suddenly it's like, but there are stories to tell and there is validity in telling them. Yeah, like there's an evolution. So here is Karen's story about the deadly nurse nicknamed Jolly Jane, Jane Toppin. The holidays can be overwhelming for everyone. Shoppers want convenience and retailers need to stay organized. That's where Shopify point of sale comes in. You can turn your holiday rush into Shopify's point of sale system is a unified command center for your retail business. It seamlessly integrates in-store and online operations even across more than a thousand locations.

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that's squarespace.com slash murder and use promo code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Well, I, I took it back because of I kind of wanted to do this anyway, because when we talk about things, it's so funny that we fully do this anyway, because when we talk about things, it's so funny that we fully do this podcast, love it, enjoy it, and yet bum ourselves out every week after we talk about our topics. So I was like, how about a little distance and we go back in history a little bit and we don't have to be so present day and so have to feel it so much. So I went all the way back to 1885.

So I have no feelings about so much. So I went all the way back to 1885. So I have no feelings about that. Who gives a fuck? No, I don't give a shit. Weird outfits and like high neck dresses and shit. Racism, all kinds of isms. The deadly nurse, Jane Toppin is my person. You may have heard of her. She... It's okay to laugh at this because it's from the 1850s. That's right. Anything before 1900, you can laugh and laugh. She was an Irish immigrant whose mother

died of tuberculosis when she was very young and whose father, a tailor, was a well-known alcoholic and eccentric who some say after her mother's death, tried to sew his eyelids shut because he was so insane with grief and alcoholism. What does that have to do with anything? I mean, it's just like this is, it's just painting the picture of where we're even starting with this girl who is a child when this happens. That is, it's some, some articles say it happened. Some say it was a rumor and it was just basically everyone knew this dad was a nut.

That's how fucking crazy everything was. He was super crazy. Yeah, it speaks more just to him and his reputation. The crazy tailor up the street. So a few years later, that dad drops off, her name at the time was Honor Kelly. And she's six years old and her sister is eight. And the dad drops them off at the Boston Female Asylum, which is a girls orphanage. Documents from the asylum note that the two girls were quote, rescued

from a very miserable home. Oh no. So yeah, so even if he wasn't crazy enough to do something as totally saw the Saw movie series as sew his own eyelids together, it was bad news. So after two years at that orphanage, Anora Kelly, if I'm saying her name right, was placed as an indentured servant in the home of Mrs. Anne C. Toppin of Lowell, Massachusetts. So she was like eight or 10. Eight years old.

Eight years old. Can you remember a little servant? An eight-year-old indentured servant. Maybe like, can you go get me my fucking, run my bath, eight-year-old? Like probably scrub the dishes and like lift shit. I mean, like they didn't care. This was 1885. Oh, that's so sick. They didn't give a fuck.

Yeah, kids were just like little humans. Yeah, this is when they were like, get them in the factory because their little arms can go into the machine. It was dark. This is also why I love Charles Dickens because all of his stories include all that like child labor shit. That's true to life. Roughly around this time. Yeah, where it was like, we wouldn't know if it weren't for like those stories or be like the last thing that would ever happen to most children these days, at least in America. Kind of. Anyway, so Anora was never officially adopted by the Toppins, but she took their

surname and eventually became known as Jane Toppin. Which is so weird that you're like, I'm not part of the family, I'm just your fucking servant, so I'm taking your last name. Yeah, I'm your lifelong child servant living in your house. So in 1885, she began training to be a nurse at Cambridge Hospital. So during her residency, she used her patients as guinea pigs in experiments with morphine

and atrophine. So she would basically go into patients who are like on a morphine drip and she would give them atrophine, which I'm pretty sure is like an upper. So she would play back and forth with sending them out and bringing them back over and over. Oh my God, just let them go to sleep. Yeah, no, because she basically got sexual, she got aroused sexually from seeing people be brought to the brink of death and then come back and then go back. What the fuck does that have to do with sex?

So I think this might be shedding a light on some fucked up shit that happened to her beforehand somewhere in the past. If there's a book about her, I will read it because some shit happened. So she would do that to these patients and then get, because she wanted to see how it affected them, but also would get into bed with them and hold them as it was happening. She told police after her arrest that she got a sexual thrill from being next to patients when they were near death, coming back to life and then dying again. So this is by her own admission that this got her off. Which is, you know, everybody's into something.

Aren't they though? So she would administer the drug and then she'd get into bed with them and hold them close to her as they died. And then this article says that this is rare for female serial killers. They usually kill for material reasons. Sexist. Bullshit. Or that the on average, it's not sexual satisfaction. That's man's domain. And so in a way, I'm

proud of Jane because she broke that glass ceiling and she got hers. Sorry, that's wrong. So she didn't get caught, I guess, because she was recommended for Massachusetts General Hospital in 1889, which this article says is prestigious. And there she killed a couple more people. And so she was actually killing people, like, because it sounds like she was bringing them back, but certain people she wasn't bringing back. She would bring them back a couple of times, but ultimately let them die. And that's what got her off.

Oh, okay. So it was like she would play with it and that would be like, you know, but I guess didn't get caught and kind of was able to cover it up. I read a thing about how she kind of messed with the charts. So everything was, you know, it was back then it was just like, yeah, people die, whatever. And I think no one would suspect a woman, no one would suspect a nurse. So she goes to Mass General and then kills more people and then gets fired. So probably like someone was sharp and on it and a little bit like, too many people have died under your watch. So then she went back to Cambridge, but she got dismissed for prescribing opiates recklessly, which is like, how is a nurse prescribing anything? But I guess that's

how they did it back then. She sounds fun. She sounds like she parties and she forces other people to party to their death. Just like a fraternity. So then she, of course, what's her natural next step if she gets fired as a nurse at a hospital? Private nursing? Private nursing is exactly right, Georgia. That's right, girl. Mind of a killer right here.

That's right. So she flourished as a private nurse despite complaints of petty thefts. So Jane couldn't handle her shit. She had her hands everywhere. They were still like, but she's a good nurse. But you know what? She gives me a bath real good. So then as a private nurse, that's when she really starts her poisoning spree. In 1895, she killed her landlords, which is a great solution. We've all been there. In 1899, she killed her foster sister, Elizabeth, with strychnine, which is, I think, a very painful way to go. It's no morphine, atrophine ride. No, it's no nighty night. It's no nighty night, good morning.

In 1901, she moved in with the Davis family because the elderly patriarch was Alden Davis. And his wife had died. And so she was there to take care of him in his old age. Well, it turns out she killed his wife had died and so she was there to take care of him in his old age. Well, it turns out she killed his wife. That's why she got the job. Holy shit. So within weeks, she had killed the patriarch of the family Alden Davis and two of his daughters. Within weeks.

Honey, you're being so obvious. Nicole Sarris Honey, pace yourself. Nicole Sarris Dude, pace yourself. Nicole Sarris This is a marathon, not a sprint. Nicole Sarris Like one per family is what you get. Nicole Sarris I mean, you do know people catch on to like mass murdering an entire family. Nicole Sarris Yeah. Nicole Sarris So after that happened, she moved back to her hometown and began

hoarding her late foster sister, Elizabeth's husband. So she's like took- I thought you said hoarding. She was hoarding into herself. She was hoarding and it was all over the house. So- That's shitty. She then kills his sister and then poisons him so she could earn his love by nursing him back to

health. For fuck's sake. And then when that didn't work, she poisoned herself out of, to try to garner his sympathy. Actually, that's kind of smart. But it didn't work. Okay. And so he cast her out of the house, which is something people did in the late 1800s. She was cast out.

Even though she was sick. Well, she got over it because she probably gave herself the tiniest little bit of strychnine. Snicky snack of strychnine. Just put a little bit on top of her biscuit. So the rest of the Davises who hadn't been terribly murdered in that house, ordered a toxicology exam on the youngest daughter that had died. And they found that she had been poisoned. And so they put a police detail on good old Jane Toppin. And on October 26, 1901, she was arrested for murder. And by 1902, she confessed to 31 murders.

Holy shit. Yeah, girl. And she's quoted, this is one of the reasons that I picked this story. And it made me laugh. It kind of makes me like her. There's something about this that I'm being a little ridiculous. Because the victim's family, it's like three generations later. Right. There's no guilt. Angry letter from a Davis. How dare you? So she was quoted, she told the cops that her ambition was to quote, to have killed more people, helpless people than any other man or woman who ever lived.

Wow. It's what she wanted and she tried her best. What does she know? Like, does she have a reason why? Like, did she think she was helping hopeless people? I know that. I think there's some angel of death nurse types that do think they're helping or like the doctor that I did.

Peter Robert, Pinkerton, Pinkerton, Woodward? Richard Woodward. Richard Woodward. Pink Richard Woodward. That guy I think was trying to convince himself. It was like, if they're a little bit older, take them out before they suffer. Yeah. But he was getting like early 70 year olds. Yeah.

No, he, I mean, I guess I was saying he was probably rationalizing it to himself a little bit, but that couldn't have been the real reason. But this one, no. I think she just literally got off on... Helpless people. And killing people and taking advantage of helpless people, which is the creepiest part. Damn, dude. I bet there's got to be something like by the time you're six and you've lived in this fucking depraved, fucked up household world, and then you move to a fucking school for girls in Boston, so it's probably real fucked up.

You just don't have any empathy anymore. I mean, hit yourself in the head with a swing at that point because you're dandy. Her older sister stayed in that orphanage a couple of years longer than her and then basically eventually became a prostitute and died of alcoholism in the gutter. So she got the better of the two lives. She went out and she made a life for herself. But I feel like, yeah, the Kelly family of the Taylor, the famous crazy Taylor Kelly, they didn't have much of a chance. There was dark, angels, Asha style darkness.

Don't date anyone ever. Don't invite anyone into your home. Easy for you to say you're married. He could be a fucking serial killer, for all I know. What if he was? He's not. He's totally not. He's not. And if he is, what a great episode that'll be. I've had a great run. You've had a great life. He gave me everything.

You've had some great night gowns. Up until the point that he murdered you, he has been so good to you. Yeah. If he murders me without me knowing that it's him that murdered me, then I die happy. Oh my God, it'll just go out in your sleep. Yeah. Like an axe in the back of your head. Listen, on June 23rd, 1902, no, no, no, this is the end of it. She was found not guilty by reason of insanity at the Barnes-Stable County courthouse, but she was committed for life in Taunton Insane Hospital. And then she died August 17th, 1938. So she lived in the mental hospital for quite some time. What would you give to go fucking have a chit chat with her? Just be like, listen, Jane.

Hi, I know that's not your real name, Jane. She's like, hey, you want a sneaky snack? No, thanks. No, I brought my own in the Ziploc bag. Just want to know what happened. Did your dad sew his eyes shut? With leather shoelaces, I'm adding that part because it's so disgusting. He was a tailor, so I bet there were clean stitches.

I bet he did it real quick and it was only like 12 bucks. Which is 24 bucks in today's standards. In the post-interns. That's crazy. What was her name? Her name is Jane Toppin. And I'm sure there's much more to know about her. I really do want to read like a full on book. I'm sorry I can't give you all of the... No, that's a good sound.

I feel like there's lots more information to be had. I just don't have it. How pissed are the top ends that she moved in with? They're like, we got to change our fucking name now because this is our legacy. Well also, yeah, you know what? Too bad then maybe don't hire eight year old indentured servants you dicks. Actually, yeah, you're right? Too bad then maybe don't hire eight-year-old indentured servants you dicks. Yeah, actually, yeah, you're right. You deserve all of it and more. You deserve your bad.

Also, what if something happened to her in that, like that's where it kicked off. Like she was like, everything's terrible. Everything's terrible. Okay, now I'm this orphanage. Okay, well at least I have this job as an eight-year-old. And then things really kick off at the top in South. It's like rape city. Or like dark, I mean, what? Who hires an eight year old indentured servant? You creep, you old rich creeps. Yeah. God damn it.

Yeah. Everything is fucked. I don't know. I see the, I don't know. You see the Pazza? I see the, I don't know. You see the Pazzo? I see the light at the end of the tunnel. I guess she probably lived longer than anyone else did. I also think of like, what if you're laying in the hospital and you're like, you feel

terrible and then you're like, oh yeah, morphine drip. Yeah. And then you're like, whoa, now I'm on speed. And you're like, this hot nurse, let's pretend she's hot. This hot nurse is laying next to me. Fuck yeah. She actually isn't bad looking. There's a really great picture of her on Wikipedia and she's actually attractive looking, but she got the eyes where you're like, oh, you don't want to be in the bathroom with her at the same time. She's one of those people that you know she'd immediately start talking to you real close.

Crazy eyes. Can I borrow your mascara? No, no, you can't. Three steps back, Jane. We're not doing this. We're not best friends immediately. No. And that's not sanitary. That's crazy. That's a good one. I like old ones. I do too. Sometimes it's a nice break. We should do a couple. We should throw them in there because it's been real depressing lately.

I know. Let's do, you know what? Do you want to do next week a theme of like really, really old ones? Like weirdly from the 1500s or something? Oh, like oldie times? Yeah. Like weird old like, did you ever see In the Name of the Rose with Sean Connery? No. It's a real good movie about, it's Sean Connery and Christian Slater actually. What? Those two people don't belong together. I know, it works. They're monks and they go to this creepy, I mean, I don't even know,

it could be a much earlier year, I don't know anything. It's like the dark ages. And they go to this monastery where priests are. Is it a monastery? That's nuns. They go to where priests live because these priests keep dying in weird ways and they have to investigate. Sean Connery, I think it's during the Spanish Inquisition, whenever that was. I love all that shit. Me too. And the first time I saw it, I was in high school, but I was like, this is fucking fascinating because it was back when murder was a little bit normal. Yeah. And you didn't live very long. So it wasn't like, you took a ton out of their lives.

Right. But there've always been serial killers. Yeah. Let's do, let's do, let's say the 1500s and then do anything around there. Like between 13 and 17. Let's say the 1500s then get within a 700 year mark of that. Okay we're back. Karen, any case updates on this very old case? Jane Toppen died in 1938. That's one. It is funny to think about that it is an interest of like historical true crime and like, oh, this is something that human beings have been doing to each other since the dawn of man. And we can be talking about this in a way that feels a little less risky or, you know, a little less like we're going to mishandle something, which is cool. But then also it's like, it's very strange where we've done, is it Harold Chipman?

I mean, like, it's like there's these repeat stories of certain types of serial killers or mass murderers where you think of it only as starting now or starting in the 80s or something. And it's like, oh no, Jane was, Jane, they think she might've killed a hundred people, I think it is. Wild. I mean, this is like exactly why Buried Bones is such a good show too, I think.

Or such a popular show is because people want to hear about these, you know, that things were just as fucking bad in the past. Well, and if you haven't listened to Buried Bones, you absolutely should. Not just because we're fans of Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes, but the idea of people taking modern day forensic science and then Kate's historical research brain

and applying them to these old cases that, up until this point, have just kind of been sitting there, we are imagining that they're just sitting there. It's like, wait, you could move forward on this. This could be solved or it could be, we could get to an actual answer. Yeah, analyzing it with like, you know, today's science. Pretty cool. Fascinating.

Yeah. All right. Well, is that it? Oh, I think it's, this episode was originally titled because 789, but we have some options of what it actually could be named. Okay, so, Sleep Helping Podcast, which I think it kind of is. I hear from a lot of people that I meet who listen that they fall asleep listening to it, or at least try to. It's very romantic.

I'm very honored. I'm always wearing a tomato red house dress as I podcast. Sleep Helping. Now I need a Sleep Helping podcast. There's also the title Girl It's Working, which is me saying to you that you're trying to seduce me by wearing that red house dress and I'm letting you know, yes, girl, I see you. I mean, this isn't sexy by the way.

This is a grandma, that's my, like house dresses are like your grandma's caftan muumuu and then this is that but like my knees are maybe showing. So there's nothing seductive about it. It didn't really seem to be at the time. I think that's the brilliance of our comedy. There's a lot of opposites-y comedy. Oh, I love it. All right, well thank you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind.

We appreciate it so much. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered! Goodbye! Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ah!