My First Million - #170 with Jake Paul - Why Jake Paul Thinks He's Worth Billions

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

Shaan (@ShaanVP) and Sam (@TheSamParr) are joined by Jake Paul (@JakePaul) and Geoffrey Woo (@geoffreywoo). The guys talk about Jake's upcoming fight with Ben Askren and a friendly wager Sam placed. We dive into business with Jake giving his take on the creator economy, why he's worth billions to the big platforms, and how Bitclout can play a role in all of it. He thinks he can be the next Jay-Z or Dr. Dre, bridging an entertainment career with a successful business one. He's already had a hit with Fanjoy, which he breaks down for us. Jake also talks about his investment philosophy, some of the companies he's investing in, and the areas he's most interested in at the moment. --------- * Want to be featured in a future episode? Drop your question/comment/criticism/love here: https://www.mfmpod.com/p/hotline/ * Support the pod by spreading the word, become a referrer here: refer.fm/million * Have you joined our private Facebook group yet? Go to https://www.facebook.com/groups/ourfirstmillion and join thousands of other entrepreneurs and founders scheming up ideas. --------- Show notes: * (2:32) Jake talks about his upcoming fight with Ben Askren * (7:29) Jake and Geoff talk about his new fund and his investing philosophy * (20:14) The business opportunities Jake's most interested in * (30:41) The guys give their takes on Bitclout and the creator economy * (40:05) Brainstorming with Jake * (1:05:08) The guys debrief after the Jake Paul podcast

Part of it's just legacy for me, you know, just wanting to be this generation's Jay-Z or Dr. Dre. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. On a road, let's travel, never looking back. Jake, do you know anything about this podcast? Do you know anything about the hustle? What's your context here?

Because we know, I mean, I know everything about you or a lot at least. I'm pretty up to speed. You know, I'm not an expert on my first million podcast, but I know, I know Sam, I know you from some Gary V videos and I've watched you. And yeah, just Jeff has spoken super highly of you. And yeah, excited to be on the podcast and learn what it's all about. Well, yeah, so I can give you the, which I'll give you the short rundown.

But I'll say that whenever we talk about numbers, I feel pretty proud of them. And then I talk to you and I'm like, fuck. Yeah. That's not that interesting. So, like, so anyway, the hustle. It's got like 2 million subscribers and read by those folks each day to get their business news. And then we have a bunch of other businesses that are subsidiaries.

We have this thing called trends where we analyze cool companies. We have this podcast, which Sean started. But we just sold the company for a fair bit of money to HubSpot, like 60 days ago now, 30 days ago. and Sean had a company that he sold to Twitch or Amazon. So that's kind of like our experience here, which is actually similar to you, Jeff. I think that Jeff, you and I and Sean are a little bit similar,

but Jake, like when we say our numbers of like X millions of people, he's like, that's cute, five million downloads. Yeah. I remember I floored once and got five million downloads. No, I actually don't think that.

I look at people who have niche followings almost as more powerful because it's what audience are you influencing over? And, you know, are they listening to what you're saying? You know, can you move them into different segments? Like there's people who have maybe 10,000 followers. Like I know this yoga instructor, she has 10,000 followers, but she has like a course where 1,000 people or 2,000 people are paying her to teach them yoga. So do you, for some of these,

YouTube folks. So what we're going to talk about today, we'll talk a little bit about you boxing. So oddly enough, Ben at, so we have this thing called trends where we have a team of analysts who break down interesting companies and then we have a community where people discuss it. Ben is a paying member of that group. I think Jeff either, I think you, I don't know if you're a paying member, but I invited you to it. And I commented in the group. I go, hey, I'm interviewing Jake. He just launched this fund with Jeff, who's another member. And they're going to be investing in X, Y, and Z. We're going to interview them in a couple days, what should we ask them? And Ben was the top comment. He commented right away. What did he say? Ask him why he's such a

jackass. Ask him why he sucks, which is like classic Ben Ascru and shit talk. I love it. We can answer that question, but I invited him to make money on both sides. He's going to make a little bit of money from the fight and we'll help invest that money and make him even more money, right? Like I think, I mean, Jake has obviously a personal tie-in here, but I think we're all business and making people money here with anti-fund. Yeah, and it was just funny how, like, you know, usually Sean and I are like, we like MMA and stuff. When we talk about that, and then we have tech over here.

It's like, oh, my gosh, this is all one now. Once in a while in the pod, we'll do like a fighting section at the last five minutes of just shit we're nerding out about and nobody listens to it and like nobody gives a fuck because our audience is all business people. But, you know, that's me and Sam's a little time that we have at the end. But I want to talk about three things. So first, I guess the headline. stuff, which is you got a big fight coming up.

I think it's next week, right? Next Saturday? Yeah, six days from now. Yeah. Six days from now. All right, cool. The second, and so that's on Triller, right? Yeah, Triller Fightclub.com, if anyone wants to order it. And I'm going to watch it because, A, I'm a fight fan, but B, this is one where it's actually

very interesting because normally, like, okay, I'm going to talk about your brother for a second. So your brother, Logan Paul, will schedule or is scheduled to fight Floyd Mayweather, which just like, you know, it's call a spade of space. It's pretty fucking lopsided matchup. You got the greatest boxer ever, probably never been, never been beat, never been knocked down, going against somebody who's, you know, very much an amateur and has made their name and entertainment more so than anything else.

But you versus Ben is like actually something I've gotten into many debates about because you've legit been training for years. Ben is kind of like the worst boxer in MMA. And so you sort of take a guy who was a champion level fighter, but not a great boxer against a guy who's actually getting pretty fucking good at boxing and put him together. And so there's actually, it's pretty torn.

Dana White, I think bet a million dollars on Ben Ascran. He didn't even like Ben Askron. So the MMA guys are really trying to back him up. But I think that's a super interesting fight that's coming up. Sam, are you into this? Yeah, 100%. I just watched Logan's podcast with Ben.

You're friends with Ben and you have like your Midwestern, like you love Midwestern guy. You love Ben. We have Jake here right in your face. Do you have, Sam, who do you, who do you favor here? Dude, Sam and I have a prop bet on this. What is the bet? You want to talk about the bed and put it on record here, Sam? Next week, Sam's not going to have any hair.

Ah, what? You know about this. Oh, my gosh. So, yes. You're shaving your head? If you, if you, if you're shaving my head. Yeah. Is your hair thinning, Jeff?

Because mine is a little bit. And I'm like, I made this bet. And I saw, I started doing research and watching Jake Spar and stuff. You got nervous. And I heard. I was like, oh, my God. I wish I would have this bet money. You made your assumption before watching any footage or looking into it?

Emotional bet. Yeah, I did it purely on emotion because we had Ben on prior and I like Ben. I mean, I don't know you yet, but I imagine I'd like you too. But I knew him first. See, Jake, here's the thing. Yeah. So just to summarize. for the audience here.

We have it on a record, so no one punks out here. Sam and I were chatting on Facebook Messenger, and we were just talking some shit. And basically, I'm like, hey, let's put something on the line, right? I think money is one thing. But I think there's something fun, something I'm a prop bet. And I think we came up with, we're going to turn into just like, whoever loses, I got my boy, Jake.

You got your boy, Sam got his boy, Ben. Whoever loses is going to go shave all their hair. the razor. Big razor. We're going to go hardcore. I like how you clarified. With a big razor, like it made it better.

No, Bick. A Bick. A Bick. A big. It's called, we used to call it Bick in it. You got a Bick it.

It's like a stringer. Yeah, like skinhead. Yes. Yeah. So anyway, we're going to see what will happen with that. But either way,

I'm going to win because it's exciting. So we're all going to win, I think. So that's good. I'm going to keep my beautiful. hair and it's going to be funny to see as a skinhead, Sam. Well, unfortunately, I already look like one. So

the odds aren't in my favorite. The second thing is you guys launched this fund called the anti-fund. It's a rolling fund, right, Jeff? Correct. It's on Angelus Rolling Fund. We've talked about rolling funds before. So Jake, actually, to your point of like the power of a niche loyal following, so I've been doing this podcast for, I think I did it for like a year. And then I was like, you know what?

I'm going to launch a rolling fund. And I said, here's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to go to anyone I know in real life. I didn't go to Sam. I didn't go to Jeff. I didn't go to any of my friends who kind of were like, I think if I went to friends in Silicon Valley and said, hey, I'm starting a fund. They would have cut me a check. It would have been great, but not a remarkable story. Instead, I said, I'm going to only raise this from people I've never met who just follow me on either Twitter or from the podcast. And I tweeted out. I said, I'm going to try to raise a million dollars in 21 days. And we're like, I think we crushed it in like

three days. And we, I'm not four million a year on the rolling fund from people I never met. And I never did a phone call. So I never did a pitch meeting or anything like that. And that was the power of kind of like a niche following or a trusted audience that really isn't that big, but the power of the trust and the quality of the audience made it so that I could raise one of the bigger rolling funds. That's huge. Yeah, that's a remarkable story. And that was sort of, you know, why we chose to go through the Angelus Rolling Fund platform

is because we wanted to be able to sort of crowdsource from our, you know, fans and people who support me and be able to market it out there so that everyone can get involved. because when we're coming into these startups are sort of differentiating factors like the traction and marketing that we can bring to them. And if we have an army of investors who want to see these products succeed, then, you know, we're all going to be pushing it. And it sort of creates this movement. How much have you guys raised so far? Can you say or no? We're not going to say. But I think in terms of just like Anchor LPs, we have Mark and Drieson, Chris Dixon, a bunch of friends.

And it's also very interesting to see and talk to a lot of institutional investors. But do they go through the rolling front platform? Because then you're going to have to give Angelus their cut. No. You don't have to give them a good. I mean, I think we're, I think Angelus has been good partners, honestly, right? Like, I think the back office and smoothness on that platform, we're very happy to share. I mean, I think, I think Jake and I think resonate because we're long-term players here.

And I think it's a very interesting evolution of the venture capital ecosystem, right? Like, I know, Sam, you're starting to invest. I mean, Sean, you have a great portfolio. I mean, I'm sure we should talk about this, but it is very interesting to see how Wall Street Hedge, crossover hedgelands are coming downstream. Top-tier venture capital firms are going upstream into public market entities. I think the growth equity people in the middle are getting crushed. I think you see solo capitalists raising hundreds of millions of dollars in SPVs.

I mean, I think the ecosystem is really, really changing. And in our thesis, is that we're all entrepreneurs here, right? Like, just look at the people on your cap table. Who are actually people who add value and these old school funds who are middling? Like, I think people like us eat their lunch. But it's not to say that, like, we can't be complimentary. But I think just, I think as a founder, I'm looking at the cap table that in my business is. And it's very easy to see.

like in terms of dollar dilution to value ad, like the best people on my cap table are entrepreneurs and operators. And I think Jake and I wanted to be those people on our portfolio companies. And I think, well, how much is the fund going to be you think? So I think you, you guys said you wanted to be number one. I don't know who the biggest is. Sean, you're at like what, five million? But that's not the biggest. Sahel, I think has the biggest rolling fund right now, maybe 10, 15 million, something like that. I think Pomp has a big one too. But the biggest doesn't really matter.

It does matter. Bro, that's what they said they wanted to do. In the press release, you go, we want to be number one. If that's your goal, you should want the best returns, not the largest size fund. So bad goal, if that is your goal. Is that your goal, Jeff, to have the largest capital base? That's not going to do anything for you. Yeah, yeah.

No, I think that's just like us in a competitive spirit. Right. But I think the core metric for us is best cash on cash returns, right? Of course. It's IRR and returning capital to our LPs. So, Jake, were you angel investing before this, or is this kind of your first for, for you, personally, into startup investments? Yeah, I've been angel investing since I was like 18.

I'm 24 now. And then I also had a fund when I was 18 called TGZ Capital. and we raise a pretty decent amount of money, but was just getting my feet wet into the tech business, but invested into over 20 consumer startups. And the fund is performing well. We're seeing exits. And we're basically tripling.

We basically tripled our IRA. So pretty successful there is my first fund. So give us some names. What are some companies? Sorry, it's a little lag. What are some companies you invested in that we might have heard of? So quip, I think, is one of the biggest ones that's like performing no foods, Triller, which is...

Quip, quip, the toothbrush thing? Yeah, hush, hush beauty. Just a lot of consumer brands. And, you know, that was, again, just me getting started. And I was 18, 19, 20 years old at the time. And now it's like my reach is bigger than ever. My knowledge is more than ever. And I have Jeff, who has such a great reputation and is an amazing founder and entrepreneur.

So just really excited to, you know, go head, head down. How did you guys meet? Is there a good story? Because Jeff is kind of like, you know, Asian guy from the tech scene, successful, you know, tech entrepreneur. Jake, you're like, I don't know, YouTube, play. boy how how did y'all even cross past is there a good story there or is this just whatever i mean i think like i was talking to chris and olena and then jake came in and like we just shook hands and i was like oh like i saw this i've seen this kid on youtube he was trolling the fuck out of connor

mcgregor that was hilarious this guy's this guy's awesome um i mean so i don't know if this is public or not but but fuck it like connor's a big customer of hars HVMN. And obviously he's had, kind of on record, had some issues with endurance. So we just knew that through HVMN, we have some exongantious ketone technology that's been supporting folks in special operations, elite athletics. And Connor was a customer. And I was like, hey, like, Jake is cool. Like, I saw him, like, trying to want to pick a fight with some of the top elite boxers.

Let's just talk about human performance. And we just hit it off from there. And we realized that human performance was really just the start. of what an overlapping interest was. And maybe Jake, you want to tell about your three goals this year? Like, you had a couple of goals that you wanted to accomplish this year and there's really overlapping. Yeah, yeah.

I told Jeff, I was like, I have three goals this year. One is to fight three times. The second is to start a VC fund. And the third was to learn to do the splits. Oh, same. The splits. The splits thing. Like this.

Yeah. split, baby. What do you use it for that? Just a lot of stretching, just literally sitting in that position and trying to get lower and lower each time. It's not really rocket science. Dude, I just signed up for a front splits course. I said Jeff shirtless pictures all the time on me doing a back bridge.

Same. Same. We can just talk about fucking load to people all day. That's ability equals speeds. So that's why I'm, that's one of my goals. But yeah, that's sort of how we connected. And Jeff was like, oh, I want to do a fund as well. Like, I've been wanting to do.

I've been wanting to do it. And we just had mutual friends and just sort of hit it off right away with our goals and our network and our vision for what we could accomplish. I want to ask you guys about some specific companies you're looking at. And we can bring up some as well. But I wanted to ask you, so I've been doing angel investing a little bit now. So I made a great living starting and selling a company. and I'm going to continue doing that.

The thing about angel investing that is like, I'm like, do I want to spend a lot of time doing this? Is that you're not going to see any returns, if ever, for like six, seven, eight years. And I'm talking to Sean all the time. I'm like, Sean, like, you think this is a good use of time? Like, this is kind of crazy. I don't know if it's, do you guys think you,

Jake, Jeff, do you guys think that is this going to be a needle mover for you guys financially or are you doing it because it's cool? It's exciting. I mean, what's your motivation here? And don't say, like, we want to help founders because I can't stand that answer because I think that's mostly bullshit. You're not doing it.

You're not going to get something. For me, it's having the finger on the pulse of what's going on. I think that's sort of what I've been best at over the years is being ahead of trends and knowing what's going on in the business world and what things are hot and new. I can leverage that a lot for, you know, a lot of different reasons, both financially, both in my career and I can, you know, have,

for my opinion on what I think I should be putting money into. And then I think part of it's just legacy for me, you know, just wanting to be this generation's Jay-Z or Dr. Dre where, you know, they're a part of these massive billion-dollar companies and do more for the celebrities around them than just be a rapper or just be a producer. You know, I want to be the, that bridge between the business world and the influencer world and be sort of the one that the influencer or celebrity who's known for that in this generation. And I feel like as a 24-year-old, I'm sort of already starting to lead that and accomplish that. Jake, something, something, let me ask a quick question. Something that I've always been

curious about. And we've actually talked about hiring CEOs on here, which is a little bit similar. but the Jay-Z thing interests me because he's got his hands and everything. So he just sold a significant part of title, maybe the whole thing. He had the alcohol thing. And then he's had like, he's had hits, like it seems like one hit every year, clothing, his record label. What I'm always curious about, and I actually just talked to a guy the other day who Jay-Z invested in his company. And I talked to the guy and I was like, what is it's like talking to him? And what I'm curious about is guys like Jay-Z and you're, if you're not there already, you're on your way there.

but you probably are. What I'm always curious about is how do they structure the office? So how are they actually structuring the day-to-day? So there's this, the face. So Jay-Z's the face, and he's got to do good at music. Otherwise, everything else fails. But he's got his hands and all this stuff. How are you actually structuring your day

or structuring like the Jake Paul Corporation in order to effectively do that? Yeah, I mean, for me it's about it's building out team. And, you know, for me, it's a little bit different right now with being in training camp. like I'm traveling all over and training twice a day and so on and so forth. But my team comes comes with me and we're sitting like there was a couple more people here literally right now, but we're sitting around this table, you know, throughout the day, going through operations, checklists, to do's, you know, hitting deadlines.

And so for me, I'm very much a part of the operations and running things. as a CEO. But are they structured as what your, do you have like a holding, like a, like a Jake Paul Media LLC or something like that? Well, it's like,

it's sort of like a parent company and then there's like, you know, the branches underneath it. But then both and most all the revenue is some YouTube, I imagine, related,

or some type of brand revenue, advertising revenue. And then you just have like maybe eight or five. I don't know how many people you said. And they just get, a bi-weekly, a bi-monthly salary off that. So, I mean,

it's just run like a pretty straight-laced normal media company. Is that how you have it set up? It's pretty much like a media company. Got it. Yeah, I've always been curious about how those guys do that. Jake,

you said something a second ago. You were like, you know, I've been good at having my finger on the pulse of where's culture going, where's attention going, where's business going. And so I'm curious,

what are the trends that you're seeing right now? What are you excited about? You can either name kind of like, categories or even better would be, you know, specific ideas that you're interested in or concepts or businesses that you're interested in. Where do you, where do you see opportunities that not everybody thinks it's obvious today, but you kind of see it a little bit ahead of the curb? Well, I think the hot one right now that sort of has evolved in the past two months is every celebrity trying to get involved in NFTs and digital assets or digital goods. I think a lot

people are doing it wrong though and they're sort of just doing it as like a flash in a pan and don't necessarily see the vision of where NFTs and why digital assets are so important and where it can go and then on top of that things like the metaverse where we have you know these digital museums and digital real estate that's that's something that I think is super powerful right now and and then everyone sort of in the past week was talking about BitClout you know and and how big that's become and I think both of those things are sort of digital digital you know businesses that are backed by influencers and celebrities or sort of built on the backbone of digital celebrities and artists and they're both super interesting I think

bit clout you know we will hear about for five 10 15 years to come and it's just such an interesting concept and decentralizing social media is such a powerful, powerful thing. So those are two just like right off the bat that are very interesting to me right now. Are you, all right, let me show you guys a company. Let's talk about specific companies in that space. I'll tell you one that I'm looking at and you tell me your opinion. So Sean brought this to my attention. I got a meeting with them actually in like seven hours because they're based in Australia. So it's like Monday morning of their time when they're meeting. But I just posted you guys the link. I don't know why the links always show up like that.

It's called Z-R-R-R-Hard. Have you heard of it? Yeah, Z-Rund. Z-E-D-D-Run. Have you guys heard of this? Yeah, these horse NFTs. It's crazy, dude. I've had friends that have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on buying these horses. It's so fascinating. Now, I think, so I'm going to try to invest in them, but I think that there's a ton of reasons why this can't work. But there may be is a world where they become this like massive like you know uh i forget what the big fantasy sports fantasy draft or whatever it's called uh there there is a world where yeah draft kings

there is a world where it becomes have you guys seen this can i tell you a little bit about this one so yeah for those you don't know so zan is basically a platform where you go on and you buy um like a digital horse so you buy a horse and the horse can be one of these like four different kind of like breeds there's one breed that's known for like speed there's another breed that's another breed that's kind of like known for let's say like it's endurance and so you know they like four different kind of like classes like almost like griffindore and slithering or whatever else right so the four different the master breeds so you go on you buy a horse and then you can race your horse now it's so it combines the fun of digital horse of like horse racing and betting on horses which i've done it sam

i know you're from redneck country you've definitely gone to horse horse tracks and bet on horses so so betting on horses is super fun but now you actually own the horse Like in a normal horse race, the race happens, and like five seconds later, you don't give a shit about, you know, horse number eight, you know, happy go lucky. It's like, I don't care about happy go lucky anymore. But in this case, it's your horse. And the better your horse does, the more other people want to breed with your horse. So these are, the underlying technology is NFTs. But if you just take that away, it's a game, basically.

But it emerges like the best of like a Tomagachi where you own your little pet, as well as horse racing where you actually race your. pet and you can win money gambling on the horse races. And so I know people that have made like three grand this week just because their horse was winning. I was doing pretty well. And people started paying him to breed with that horse because he had a 25% win rate. But how do you make your horse better or worse? It's just like a game of sort of random chance, right?

So you sort of buy the horses at the auction and the horse has some probability of being like one of the like top horses. And then even then like anything can happen in a race. So the race itself has some probability. So it's just a bunch of math equations that's deciding whether this horse is going to win that race or not or be one of the premier horses. It's random. Is it random in the same way that like you open a back of a pack of Panini basketball cards and you might get a Luca Dantius rookie card or you open Pokemon and you might get a holographic charzart or not. So there's just a set of probabilities where you get the common stock that are like not that great or you get the premium rare ones. And when you have that, it's this asset that just drives a bunch of cash flow because it'll win races, which wins you money.

or people will breed with it and it will win your money. And so it's this mix. And the people who will go heavy on it, there's this crew of guys, I've talked to them, that are like the same guys that are the whales

on all the daily fantasy sites. These guys bet, you know, millions of dollars. I was talking to a guy yesterday. This guy basically himself bets about $3 million a month on draft kings and Fanduel. And so it's that same crew

that became the cream of the crop. They moved to Topshot, and they basically bought all the top shot stuff, like all the Topshot car, when it was really cheap. And then they started trading with each, I can't say his name, but they started trading with each other

and they started buying each other's things up. And so all of a sudden, the prices went up. And it's kind of like a little bit Fugazi because these guys like, they're all buying from each other. So it's sort of like a wash trade. It's like, I'll pay you $5 million.

And you pay me $4 million back. And then I pay you $3 million. And it makes all the price, it makes the price of all of our assets that we bought dirt cheap go up to the mass public. Now the public just sees it and we talked about it on the pod, like, oh my God, $160 million has been traded on Topshot.

Oh my God, that one Top Shot is worth $4 million or whatever. And it's because these guys basically pumped the market themselves. And like this month, Top Shot's like crashed. It's like down 70%. And all these guys have moved to Z run. And so like the place to be right now is Zed because that's where you go buy some horses and the whales are all there betting against each other and driving up the prices. So Jake and Jeff, would you write these guys a check based off of the three

minutes of information you know about them. I think Jake and I like investing the picks and shovels of the space, right? So I think, Sean, I think you're very astute. I think there's a lot of inside dealing. And it's a very similar dynamic with the fine arts market or the nightclub, social clout, like, hey, I'm going to drop X hundred thousand dollars popping bottles and doing the model nightlife lifestyle. I think we believe that the market for this exists.

And I think that for Gen Z and Ford, it's just as cool to have digital stunts versus real-life stunts. So I think enabling this economy, I think, is a real market. Just like Warholz are a real market, I think Beeple's are like a real market in the sense that there is some liquidity in the space. But I think it's very hard to choose which specific art or artist is to be made. And I think where I think we have some alpha is there is going to be a similar infrastructure

around the Christie's, the Sotheby's, the gallery owners, the tastemakers, the curators. There is a multi-billion dollar industry that chooses winners, right? Like who says that a Rothschild, $40,000 wine is worth $40,000? Right? There's an ecosystem that chooses that wine or that chooses that artist to be the next winner. So the question then is Jake and Jeff, do you think that Z, are you willing to bet? Would you bet that this is going to be the next Kentucky Derby? I think a lot of these games are hits-driven businesses, right?

I think it's like just like how there are a bunch of mobile games that were super hot that like spiked and then crashed. I think these are like movie franchises, right? Like which ones are durable and which ones are flash in the pan, right? And I think there's a lot of self-dealing with folks that come to. early and exactly as you mentioned. I think we've seen and looked at a lot of these deals, right? Like the Biple art piece that sold for 69 million-odd Christie's, the buyer, people had 2% of that stake, right? Like they were pumping up people's art value, right?

Like that is like well known within like the hardcore NFT art collection. Like it was a self deal dealt trade. Like he is pumping his own art pieces, right? It's almost like a like because they're not securities, it's probably not insider trade and not illegal. So let me give you a Jake just had a grin. Jake's got something to say. No, I just say, I wouldn't. He slapped at something. Invest or not invest into a company based off of a three-minute spiel from not the founders.

Yeah, that's good. That was a trick question. Good point. There was a great tweet I saw yesterday by somebody, I think their name is, I don't know how to say it, for dose, buy, or something like that. But they said, here's the scenario. I have $2 million of ether. I create an NFT art piece. I pay an artist five grand.

Hey, make me some NFT art. Cool. Now I use my $2 million of ether to buy my own NFT. Now I still have $2 million in ether because I bought my own NFT. The money went to me. And I have an art piece that's valued at $2 million. So now I put that NFT backup on the market. And let's say it sells at a 90% discount.

It sells for 200K. Oh my God. I took a big back. on this, whoever bought it got a great deal. They bought a $2 million ether. This thing just sold for $2 million. They got it for $200K. Great. I now have $2.2 million in ether. And it's like, that is how simple the sort of self-dealing can be in this space right now because it's the Wild World West. Now, that's, I got to tell you, the same sort of shenanigans were taking place with Bitcoin really early on. And sometimes there is a fake it tell you make it nature to these things.

Right now it's happening on BitCloud. So I was, I came on here talking about BitCloud a few weeks ago. And everyone's making fun to me because they're like, oh, are you pumping this like, you know, is this a Ponzi scheme? Like, oh, you know, it's like that scene from the office where Michael's all excited. And then Jim goes and draws a pyramid around the thing he's, he's, you know, drawing out. And it's like, yeah, that's a pyramid scheme. But I, you know, I sort of saw something different in BitCloud. I think actually BitCloud has a lot of potential.

I pumped in 100K because I know that for all these platforms, they don't have to work in the long run for them to be successful. They can be successful in two other ways. One is they can just show the world that, hey, this is not maybe the end, the winner, but this is a good idea. And then somebody will come out with a V2 later and it'll be better. The second thing is if you get in early and there's a speculative run where people get excited and more people get involved, it doesn't have to like replace Facebook and replace Twitter for you to make a bunch of money. And so that was my view on BitCloud. Jake, I'm heavy in your coin right now on Bitcoin. I'm just waiting for you to claim that baby because you're one of my main.

Yeah, why? I'm claiming in the next couple of days here. But it's so interesting. And again, it goes back to like being able to get the general public involved. For me, when I saw, when I'm looking at crypto, like I understand it more than the average person. I'm not an expert by any means, but I've been following it for years and investing money into it. But it's still a bit confusing. And I don't know all the different coins. And I have to like look and research their functions. and all this stuff and figure out who's involved and if they're legit, if I want to put my money in. When BitCut came out, I was like, oh my God, this is perfect for me because I know who these influencers are. I know who these celebrities are. I know who their managers are. I know if they're actually smart. I know if they work hard. I know if their career will have longevity. And I think also for fans, you know, they can be like, oh, my God, you know, I love this kid on TikTok, I think he's going to be the next big thing. But is BitClout's only $500? I can put in $500. And then who knows if they actually blow up? And so I think for the general public,

BitClout is so much easier to understand. It's easier, like, entry point. And it's just the start. And that's part of the reason why I'm bullish on it as well and think that it has a ton of potential and that it'll be around for a while. And you sort of have this direct access to, your most loyal supporters and the people who believe that you will be successful in the long run, you're able to connect with them, message them, and see who's backing you. So can I just say one thing on that? So I joined the thing like three weeks ago and, you know, it was excited initially and put a bunch of money in and I've made a bunch of money on it.

But now I'm, I guess my thoughts of something is clicked in my head where I now get, I can now better articulate why I think this idea, whether it's in BitCloud or some other project that comes up two years from now, this idea is never going to go away. And I'll explain why. Because a lot of people said, okay, what's the point? Why would I buy this coin? Why would I buy Jake Paul's coin? I would buy Jeff's coin. What's the purpose of it?

And here's how I would explain it now. Everybody sort of gets and actually kind of likes things like Patreon where it's like, well, I like to support a creator I like. So I want to give them money so they can keep creating kind of. content. And Patreon has this like feel good vibe to it where I'm just, you know, sort of donating. And I get back, I get some kind of access, right? So when I get, when I pay on OnlyFans or Patreon or Substack, I pay for access. I pay for stuff. And so I give you money and you give me content. And what BitClout does is it takes that same trade, but it makes it even better for the person giving the money because it says, hey, this time when you buy my coin, yes, you get access,

You get content, you get exclusives, you get more from me, and you're helping me do what I do, because now I can make a living doing this. But if you were early, if you think that more people in the future will want that same access, you're going to not just like pay for stuff and, you know, it's money going to make money. Because the coin's going to appreciate and value. And so you as an early tastemaker get to, like if I knew Jake Paul was going to be Jake Paul, actually, Jake, I saw you, we were at a party together. You were coming. You were leaving. I was coming at a house party like five years ago. four or five years ago.

And I remember you were walking around with backpack on. I just remember thinking, why does this guy got a backpack? And they're like, oh, that's Jake Paul. I thought, oh, yeah, I've seen some of this guy's stuff on Vine. I think this guy's great. If I could have bought your coin then by being an early, identifying earlier on that, hey, this guy's going to be big, not only would I've got the access pay for content, but I would have made 5x, 10x, X my money by believing in you early.

So it takes the concept of a thousand true fans, which was like a 20-year-old concept that a lot of people talk about, hey, if you can. You can get 1,000 people to pay you $10 a month. You can make a living as an artist. A thousand true fans is gone. Now it's 100 true believers. A hundred people who actually invest in your coin, not only are they enough for you to make your living, but they will get rich by being early in you too.

And so I think that's the one thing that will stick around. I don't know who's behind Big Cloud. I don't know if it's a scam. I don't know if they'll run away with our money. I don't know if it'll get hacked. Nobody can guarantee you those things. But I can guarantee you this idea that the curators, the tastemakers, the people who identify talent early as a fan

and they are going to get it's like buying Amazon stock early now they're going to make financial rewards in addition to being an early supporter that idea is never going away and that's what BitClout brought to the world. Yeah I hear this this like legit I don't know if it's like an open secret now but like there's legit people behind

and like legit operated yeah it's Chamath and Andreessen or they backed it. It's public yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and like the operator the founder is like a legit guy who's raised like hundreds of million, like 150 million dollars of previous crypto projects. I think like the team is like going to be reasonable. It's underwritten by like reasonable people. Yeah, I mean, I think the

long term scheme is that like for Twitter, Instagram, right? Like Jake offered so much freaking value to those platforms, but he has to monetize off platform. Jake, how much money, how much value do you think you created? Just give me a wild ass guess, you know, a wag, wild ass guess. How much value did you create for Vine, for Twitter, for YouTube. If you were throwing a number out there, how much value were the Paul brothers for those platforms? Oh, over like billions, billions of dollars in media value.

Yeah, market cap for sure. Hands down every day of week. So let's take the conservative angle. Let's take it most conservatively. Let's say you only added 100, million dollars over the last 10 years. I think that's an extremely conservative estimate, right? Or we can go, we can just say 100 million. Roughly right now, what do you think, what percentage of the value that's created do

do you YouTubers capture? Do they capture like 1% of the value they're creating 10%? Like, how one-sided is the deal in your opinion? It's very one-sided. And I think that's why you see, you know, YouTube and creators not as in sync as before because they're finding ways to go off platform and make money like OnlyFans, BitCloud, their own subscription platforms. So it's not the same ecosystem that it was before. But even before it was still very, very lopsided. And we're bringing all of this attention to YouTube and we're bringing those eyeballs without that content there from the influence.

you know, the fans aren't necessarily going to come back all the time, I think. And I think that's a value you can't even really put a price tag on. Yeah, I mean, just look at it from like a Netflix model, right? Netflix spends billions of dollars. Disney Plus spends billions of dollars on content. And then YouTube basically gets it for free and then kicks an ad revenue split to the creators. So what? Like, I just don't think it's a,

a stable equilibrium just from like economics 101. Like that will have to change in the medium long term. And I think that's part of our thesis as anti- So what do you call that? What do you call this genre of companies? Companies that basically help people like Jake or us make more money versus just making a tiny bit of money from ad revenue. What do you call this like niche?

Yeah. I think people are deeming it creator economy, passion economy. I mean, it's just like, I think there's a new way. I think like what is the ultimate commodity? It's time. What is the best proxy for time? It's money. What's the second best proxy for time?

Attention. Right? Like, so I think it's like literally time is what everyone has limited resource of. Money buys you a lot of time because you can pay people to do stuff for you. And then attention, right? Like attention is very, very scarce. And I think what creators and influences offer is a lot of attention. So let's actually talk about some of those companies that you guys are looking at.

I know, I mean, I know the past ones, Jake said that he helped build or was very tightly associated with Fanjoy, which if I had a guess, I just, just from what I read online, I would imagine that they're doing north of $100 million a year. Well, they're for sure doing north of $100 million in gross merchandise sales. Are they doing more than $100 million in like net revenue? I'm not sure, actually. If I would bet, I would bet, would say 50 or 60. Explain what it is for people who don't know. What's Fanjo?

Jay, how do you explain Fanjoy in the easiest way? I'm technically a co-founder on the books of Fanjoy, but also investor and like just been very involved in strategy from day one with the CEO, Chris. But essentially, Fanjoy is the best place for influencers slash celebrities slash athletes to go for their merchandising, creation, shipping, fulfillment, and fan experience. So, you know, let's say there's a big influencer and they need merchandising.

Fanjoys is the best place to go. They take care of design, fulfillment, shipping, customer service, the website, and it's basically A to Z one-stop shop. What do you, is something? What's going to be the, how does fan joy and someone like one of the massive t-shirt companies

or something like that buys them for hundreds of millions of dollars? Yeah, and I think just continuing to scale and scale and bring more influencers and you know, doing unique things like disrupting retail in many ways because you know, when

some of these influencers, we've seen them go into retail in different places like Zoomies or Target even, they're going crazy because their fans can actually go to the store and buy physical products. So I think there's, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of value in that. And then just getting super smart around the actual product and the customer acquisition. And there's always going to be an influencer, a celebrity or an athlete that's super popular at the time.

And so the business obviously continues to grow and grow and grow. What other products are you seeing in the space that are interesting that most of our listeners won't even know our thing? I mean, Big Cloud we've talked about, but that's something that a lot of people don't even know. Companies that help creators. Yeah. Monetize better than just plain advertising. I mean, maybe just like, we don't want to like scoop someone, announce some investments, but we already started making some investments.

And I think we've looked at novel ways to do commerce, right? Like, I think SMS conversational commerce is very, very interesting. You know, Sam, you've been awesome to kickover some interesting deals. Yeah, I can tell you. So I sent Jake and Jeff this company called Tails. And what it does is the reason they interest me is there's already companies in China doing this that have like $50, $70, $80 billion in market cap. entails is a platform where an author can upload the text of their past books and through a bunch of

different technology it turns into an interactive book which you can sell for more money and make the author more money and that's kind of interesting I think that there's a ton of reasons why that business can fail but there's a few reasons why it could be quite massive and so I invested in in it for a few reasons I think it could be big I think I sent that sent that to you Sean yeah yeah I saw that one too so Jake let me ask you if let me ask the question a different way um the people who listen to this podcast are like makers of some kind of product or engineers. Everybody from, we have like execs at Twitch or YouTube or Facebook that listen to this podcast, Twitter.

And then there's like, you know, the 18 year old college kid who listens to this because he loves getting ideas about like different things that they could go built. And so a lot of them, one of the biggest DMs I get is just like, hey, like, do you have an idea or what do you think of this idea? I can make anything. I just don't know where, I don't know what the. problems are that people have. Because imagine, you're a 20-year-old kid, the apps that those people build are typically the apps that solve problems of 20-year-old kids, but they're not, because they don't know what problems that Jake Paul has. And same thing with execs that these companies, they don't always understand what are the problems that an influencer like you would have.

So what are some pain points or like, if you could say kind of like, man, I wish somebody would make it easier for me to do X or, man, it really sucks that, you know, I'll just throw out some examples while you think, because I know that's a tough question. I wanted to buy a house and like it sucks. You can't get a mortgage even though I got millions of dollars of no W2 income. Okay. Yeah. So I think in this space, there are very few people who are great at just social media in general from understanding it,

knowing what's going on, knowing the players involved, being able to create content in the space, edit videos, graphic design, you know, understanding Twitter, being able to run a Twitter, account. Everyone I meet ever is like, I need a social media person. I need someone who can edit, film, uh, understand, post, do the captions, tweet, make the TikToks, come up with the videos. I need ID, like every single company, every single influencer needs that person. And there's, where are they? I don't know. I've had to, it's, it took me long, long, long time. My John right here, he's my guy. He's like, I'm right here.

But it's so hard to find them. It's so hard to find them. And so I wish there was a place where I could just go and be like, who's the best social media people. I think that would blow up instantly. We just went through this. Yeah, we just. So Jake. So what's that look like?

We just had a fun version of this where like, so my studio looks, you can say it, Jake. I look pretty legit right now, right? Got good lighting, got good audio, got a good camera. I didn't know how the fuck to do that. And so these guys basically flew out to my house and built me the studio in my garage. And they did the same thing for Sam. And then they said, great, we're going to take your podcasts and the videos from this. And we're going to chop it up and make awesome social clips and just have them ready for you on a platter to post.

And then some guys are posting them for us. So now we have this machine behind us that's taking the raw content and turning it into something awesome. It took us a year to find that. And we were just lucky that we found it. So let's just riff on that idea for a second. It seems like there's two ideas that come to mind. You tell me if either of these are exciting. One is a way to, like a job, like a basically like a place to go hire.

Like, you know, LinkedIn is too broad. You know, Upwork is just too random. A place to go, a marketplace where you could find trusted content creator like allies, digital, like kind of like editors, social media people, graphic designers, stuff like that. So like a place to go find high quality people like that, like a marketplace? Well, do you know, Jake, do you know Angie's list? We need Jake's left. Yeah.

But the thing is though is like a good creative artist editor slash videographer isn't going to go and fucking make a LinkedIn profile. Like how do you get these people who are actually good and like super talented to maybe be on one of these sites? I don't know. And a lot of them are young kids. So one company is called Dribble where great designers didn't want to go to LinkedIn and just say I'm a great designer. Even if you went to LinkedIn, you couldn't tell if they're a great designer or not. What Dribble did was it let them upload little shots.

So it's like while they're in Photoshop, if they're doing something cool, they kind of take a screenshot, upload it to Dribble, and other designers see it. So it kind of became this social network for designers to share their coolest stuff they were making. It's like our portfolio. And then once they got everybody building their portfolio on here and sharing it with each other, then it became the best way to hire designers, because now you could just go browser portfolios, and they got higher paying jobs. So that's one angle of attack. The other is Lambda

School. So I invest in this company called Lambda School that basically was training people to become software engineers. Like every tech company needs to hire engineers. Every influencer needs a social person who's making, you know, editing and posting stuff. Every tech company needs more engineers. And so Lambda School was like, yo, college is not doing it. We need to make a nine-month boot camp or we'll make you like from zero to ready to be hired and we only make money if you get hired so like we're fully aligned with you if we can't get you a high paying job as an engineer then we failed we don't make any money it's on us and lambda school is going to be like a billion dollar plus company now you could make potentially a lambda school for whatever content creation

or media creation yeah i mean let's just put it out there like i'm sure all of us would invest in a company that would like prime up people that doing social media management i think I mean, I'm talking to Sam, Trung, one of your lead riders for this for HVMN. I think there is a scarcity in this type of skill set. But Jake, what are the solutions to the, all right, so somehow we got to the solution of like some type of job board issue, like vetted thing. The other like obvious one is, well, we're just going to build up an agency where we hire thousands of people.

That actually probably could work. It would be kind of a pain in the ass and not that exciting. What other solutions are there that you proposed for this? I guess it would be maybe like a place where people could put their highlights. Yeah, maybe like their videos, but then maybe their understanding of social media, like almost if someone had a resume spot, that was more robust for this specific type of thing. but again it's difficult it's a because it's a challenge this is a challenging thing

yeah I hear this problem I have this problem as well where I'm like I just want to hire someone who I can just say just do it it is but so I hear you I'm and I haven't come up for the good solution I just looked at Fiverr do you guys know you guys definitely know Fiverr maybe you could do just a more exclusive Fiverr they have a pretty good market cap $8 billion publicly traded It's pretty fascinating. Yeah, but I think to Sean's point,

I think Lambda has a good model where there is, I think, best practices that some, you know, someone like, you know, John, who works with Jake is like literally teaching, curating, like, just giving the best practices of what, like, a top tier, top five creators actually doing with their setup, right? Like, your guys' setups are beautiful, right? Like, why isn't that replicated across everywhere? But I would pay to just have that just set up for me. So would you guys invest in that?

Would you basically just launch Jake? Like a, I mean, you wouldn't do this, but maybe someone would for you. A Jake, like a, like a, like a, some cooler name than social media school, but a social media, you know, like a school like that. Yeah. So I've, I've tried. I've dabbled. I've dabbled in it.

I've dabbled in trying to teach kids about social media and how to do it and like so on and so forth. And what I found was is that just people weren't dedicated, honestly. And it was a lot of, it was a lot of shit and lots of hours of content and me explaining. And it just, I think people don't understand how hard of a job this is and how it's 24-7 and there's so many different, you know, parts to it. So I've tried to educate people. I actually think what would be far more, what I think could be, what I think could be interesting is if we created a, like a, where it's not geared towards young kids.

It would have to be geared specifically towards companies. And what you would do is charge 10 to 15 grand. And your employees would go to it. And you would have recorded talks by Jake Paul by Logan. But then you'd also be like, all right, now we're going to talk to these editors. They're going to show you how they do it. and it's a three week, no, you do a six-week thing, you meet twice weekly for three hours apiece,

and you just have a curriculum, and it's just like a boot camp. I'm pretty sure you could build at least a $10 million a year company doing just that. And potentially it could become much larger, like a Miami school for advertising, which is like $100 million a year company that's been around for 50, 100 years,

whatever, yada, yada, yada, yada. You could probably get quite wealthy doing just that. Well, I think anti-fund would invest in something like that. is a credible operator, right? I think Lambda showed the path for software engineering, right? And I think you're exactly right. This is not like the trained kids, like 18, 19-year-olds that are just like dabbling around. They just want to kind of like hang out and get affiliate with Jake Paul.

This is like, hey, we want to train legit social media managers for top 500 enterprises. I think that there's clearly a demand, again, like the business I've worked with, like, we would pay for that. And can I? So I think it's like, if you guys. chip in like we can like in the audience here there's there's entrepreneurs out there every time we put out there hey here's an idea like anytime we put on an idea that says hey i have this problem or here i think there's a genuine problem in the world and somebody could fill it maybe doing this maybe doing that and i would back to you if you wanted to do this do we get incredible operators coming out the woodwork so

when they hit us up after this i will share you know we'll share it amongst the four of us and if somebody's legit trying to do this great we'll go for it like jake i don't know if you saw this but we did a mini SPAC where I just straight up said, hey, there's all these little small, like, SaaS companies out there that are, you know, they're not doing great, but they're not horrible. And I said, instead of going to business school and wasting 200 grand and two years of your life,

I will gift you one of these businesses. I'll buy you a business for five or 10 grand. That's making, I don't know, $1,000 of profit per month right now. And you run it. You'll learn more from this than you will for business school. And a bunch of other people on Twitter chimed in. They're like, I'm in for 5K.

And so it kept going. and we basically gifted this kid. He's a college senior. We gifted him a $100,000 business. It was a Shopify app. And it's a Shopify app that makes it already profitable. And the person behind it hadn't run it. And so this is like a new education model, right?

Like this guy is not, you know, instead of going to business school, he's going to get to run a business. And for us, we get a kickback if this guy's able to grow it. And if he's not, no problem. Like the business is already profitable. So there's already kind of like a floor on how bad this can go for us. But we're pretty ballsy. with the stuff we put out and people step up when we do.

So I'm curious, is there any other pain points for like, dude, somebody should do X or I wish somebody would solve this problem for me or for people like me? Is there anything else that comes to mind? I'm curious. I'm trying to think of like right off the top of my head. I can bring one up if you don't have one as well. It's crazy because to actually sit there and think about like this. I would want to put it out on Twitter more.

Maybe I need to become better at putting out some of these ideas. Like, guys, we need help with this on Twitter. It's obviously Fight Week, so I'm just posting all this stuff about the fight. But I think I need to get better at posting this business sort of stuff on my Twitter and utilizing it to capture an engaged audience. Because I have ideas like this that come up all the time. But I'm just like, oh, no one's ever going to do this. I think you'd be surprised.

I think particularly if guys like Jeff or me or Sean eventually start like sharing it and then you start you're going to start capturing like our side of the world, which you already are. But I think you'd be surprised at who would pounce in some of these stuff, some of these things. Can I bring up one quick one really quick? Because I know we're getting close of time. Again, the reason why this is interesting is because I've talked to Jeff a ton about this. And it's also interesting because Jake's younger than us, but is like, I guess technically you are a professional athlete.

And then Sean doesn't care about any of this, but I think he's the ideal customer. So here it is. The average 22-year-old male today, this is a tweet that went viral the other day. The average 22-year-old male today has roughly the same testosterone levels as a 67-year-old had in the year 2000. The average testosterone level has fallen close to 50% in the last two decades. Pretty wild. A company that I've been looking at and I actually passed on them and I kind of regret on

is called Peak. So I actually, it's called Get Peak Today. And so the idea here, and I want to hear what Jake, kind of like, you're kind of speaking on behalf of like the little bit younger folks. Sean, you're speaking on behalf of people who maybe you should consider taking this, but you don't. And I do take it. So basically, TRT, Tasochrome Replacement Therapy.

It's an incredibly scammy industry. This company, get peaked. Their URL is getpeaked today.com. I think they're doing something like 15 million in, recurring revenue in the first 18 months. What do you guys think about this industry, TRT? Basically, what we're explaining listeners is just fucking injecting yourself with a needle with testosterone, basically a PED.

Well, I actually have some experience here as a biohacker, interest in human formant. So I actually did an angel investment in a company called Maximus, Keith Roboy, and Formation A laid the seed round, and they're just rolling out of alpha. The founder's CEO is Cam SEPA, who is a UCSF. Yeah, I know him. Trained clinical psychologist. So he's doing some interesting work there, exactly solving that problem. I think it is an underspoken issue where, yeah, exactly.

Like literally the average man today, their testosterone levels is like their grandfathers of 30, 40 years ago. Is that, I mean, we can go down all sorts of rabbit holes that might not necessarily be a PC to talk about. but it is a very interesting where tea levels are just dropping. Have you explored this, Jake? As you've gotten into athletics, have you explored like your your T levels at all? Yeah, yeah. I've definitely been tested for it.

And obviously, like mine aren't terrible like that. But it's definitely, it's definitely something that I think men talk about, even at this age already, like it's starting to become this bigger conversation. that needs to be fixed. Obviously, there's a massive problem there. I think obviously due to our diet, our food, our chemicals, our pesticides, all that bullshit is obviously has to do with it. And 30, or when you're 30, 35-ish, and you're no longer, and you no longer, like, you know,

are you test by Usada? I imagine you are, right? Usada, one of those, yeah. I don't even know which one it is. Yeah. So, like, when it's no longer an issue of, of using a performance-enhancing drug, would you be adverse to injecting yourself weekly

for the rest of your life with testosterone? And how do you think some of your peers would feel about that? I think they would do it for sure. I mean, if it's going to increase your life performance and your libido and your muscles and all of that stuff, then for sure. You know, especially it's only going to get worse as you get older. And so if it's already this big of a problem in our generation,

then of course, you know, and it's, this is something that, again, is becoming a bigger conversation. And I think hair loss and all of this stuff are all part of that. Maybe I'll invest in this company just because Jake said that his peers would do it. We should incubate or seed this company, dude. This is a, this is one you, I think you said this on like the first brainstorm we ever did. And this is still, I think probably the best idea you've brought to the table. You peaked on day one of this TRT subscription. company because you see what Hems and Roe have done where they took the same thing, a taboo topic,

like erectile dysfunction or, you know, early, early balding. And they basically created a top, like consumer brand that built trust. And they went crazy building a D to C brand on, you know, through Facebook and advertising around that topic. And this is, I think, an even better business because it is, I think the market is actually larger for something like this. I think some people are scared to inject some folks. I passed on this on the seed round. On the seed round, I passed on this company. And I was like, and now I see their numbers now and I've got so much frustration. This type of thing, it's not even just like a one winner take all. Like Hems and Roman are both multi-billion dollar companies, both fighting in the U.S. I just invested in, you know, Roman for Canada

because it's like the same thing. If it works in the U.S., it's also going to work in Canada. It's not going to not work there. And you need a very different like kind of legal and logistical set up to do it in Canada and these other guys are doing it better. So I think that it's not like there's one company that's just going to win here, especially if you had the power of distribution behind it, like if Jake or Logan or whoever, if they invested in something like this and had it had skin in the game to be able to bring awareness to this crazy fact, right? A company only needs one insight to start. And if that one insight is the average 25 year old today has the same testosterone as their grandfather did it at 67, like it's dropped that dramatically, like that one

one inside alone, you can go start a company on. You'll figure the rest out as you do it. You don't need anything else to get started. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a thesis behind anti-fund. I think it's like, how do investors help, right? It's like, and like, again, you guys are all operators too. Like, who are the best people on your cap table? It's like, can they make introductions?

Can they give you attention? Can they give you customers? And it's like, and I think like you guys, I would invest in your funds because like, you guys have channels. You guys have people that actually listen to you. You guys are sharp. You guys get a lot of deal flow. And I think in some sense, you know, we're starting a little bit behind in terms of our fund status. But like obviously, Jake and I are personal investors and have some track record there. But I think people like us, I think,

will have outsized returns compared to the middling VC funds who are run by people in the previous generation who don't get the strategy that we're trying to execute here. Yeah, I buy that. Okay. Well, I know we're coming up on time. Sean, you want to you want to wrap it? up? Yeah, I think we should, how do people get more? So where do they follow you guys? How do they invest in anti-fund? Watch the fight. Plug everything you want to plug for people who have listened this far. Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of the fun information, we're on Angel List. I think we're the top featured rolling fund right now. So Angel List, search for anti-fund. We're there. We have profiles on Instagram and Twitter. You can find Jake at Jake Paul. You can find me at Jeffrey Wu on all the

standard social channels, and then watch Jake's fight. I don't know. Yeah, Triller. Dude, on your angel fund. And I love bullet point number four on your angel fund, rolling fun sales page. What is it? The earth is flat. The earth is flat.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it just shows a little bit of the personality where I think, yeah, I think it goes back to the thesis that like, If time is the ultimate commodity, what are the proxies of that? And I think it's like if you can command capital or if you can command attention, those are like the most powerful assets today and today's economy. And hopefully we can execute and utilize what we think we have some advantage here to return, returns for ourselves and our LPs. Good.

Hold on. Go ahead, Sean. Okay, we can wrap it up. Jeff, Jake, thanks for coming. Jake, good luck at the fight. I think you're going to win. Sorry, Ben, if you're listening. I just think that Jake cares more and is going to try harder to win.

I think Ben is okay with the decision. And because of that, I think he's going to lose rounds. That's my prediction. It's on the record. Sam, you're going to shave your head. That's how I think this all plays out. Thanks for coming on, guys.

We should do this again. We should do this again in like, I don't know, six months or a year. And we'll see what you guys are investing in. We'll keep shooting the shit and talking business. Yeah, a quick debrief. So I still feel like crap. And I don't know if I told you, but we, I was insane. Louis when this happens, which is 13 hours away, we were supposed to meet with Jake on like a

Wednesday or Thursday or something. Something changed. We had to do it on Sunday. He told us like 24 hours in advance. So I just drove back here. And I got home at like, I drove through the night. I got home about 5 a.m. Oh, shit. I had no idea. And then we did we did the podcast at like, I forget which time. noon maybe. I was exhausted. I'm still exhausted. So I was, I hope I hope it. It went over okay. Well, yeah, I hope it turned out okay. I know that when we were talking to him live, there was like a little bit of a lag or like a delay just on his connection or something.

And so that made it really hard. Maybe just remember like how much more fun this is to do in person than online. Yeah. Like I don't care how good these tools get. I don't care what Zoom is worth. Like doing the podcast in person is so much better than doing these online. Speaking of which, although actually let's talk about Jake. Do you want to say anything?

I don't really have much to say. I thought it went okay. It went fine. Yeah, exactly. It was fine. I would say, great. It wasn't bad. It was fine.

Yeah. He, you know, he was like, you know, he took it seriously. I thought he did a good job. He was trying to like, you know, he brought, he brought it to the table what he, you know, what he had to bring to the table, which was like, yeah, here's how I think about my business. Here's what I'm focused on. Here's some things that other influencers, I think don't get right. But here's what I think I'm doing better or, you know, here's my, here's how I think about it.

So I thought that was all good. I thought a bunch. I thought I was a little bit disappointed in a couple things. One was Jeff's great. I love Jeff. But also there was questions where I want like tougher questions for Jake that Jeff would take for him. And I thought. Oh yeah.

Jeff was totally blocking for him. Yeah, he was blocking. Which I think you got to do if that's your relationship. You're like the business guy and the partnership. So you're like, okay, I'll handle that question. It's kind of like. But it's the same thing. Like, you know, if you ask a CEO question and the PR person answers, you're like,

no, no, I don't want to hear your answer. Like, I know your answer. Yeah. I want to hear that person's answer. And so that's the only thing where it felt like there were sometimes, I was like, shit. Like, Jeff, I know you have a good, smart answer for all this. I want to hear what Jake thinks about that because, you know, he's the interesting

personality, frankly, of like, you know, of why I was excited to do that was like, I wonder how this dude who's totally different than me thinks about this type of stuff whose life is totally different, right? You're one of the biggest YouTubers in the world. And, you know, you're going to have a different perspective than like, me and Sam and Jeff, who we're all kind of like the same, kind of like tech entrepreneur. What, um, how much do you think Jake Paul? So like, we, I asked him about the Jake Paul, like, how it's set up. And so basically there's probably a, he kind of said there's like a Jake Paul

LLC, which probably most of the revenue is like YouTube ad or brand revenue. And then, um, then there's a variety of like, I bet minor things. So maybe his investments or something like that. but how much do you think the Jake Paul media company earns a year in revenue and profit? Man, it's hard to say. Okay, let's just take it. I didn't bring this up to them, even though this is something everyone wants to know, including myself. I didn't feel, I wasn't on that level.

Yeah, we're not talking like that. Okay. So like if you just take YouTube, I'm sure people can do, you know, on the fly here. I'm not going to do the back of the envelope. Like how many monthly views does this video get? Okay. Then you assume a $5. CPM for his YouTube ad you know,

RevShare. And then you say, okay, he has these sponsors. I think there are going to be seven figure, you know, I would say his media side of things should be bringing in about $10 million a year. That'd be my guess. I was thinking a little bit more, but give or take, give or take, uh, no,

15 to 20. So I would say that's the, that's the media side, which is his YouTube cut plus his his issue is that he's not entirely brand safe. which there's no judgment there. I'm just, that's probably the truth. Yeah,

exactly. And then I would say the boxing stuff is probably going to bring in about the same because they own a lot more of that. So even though the total pie is less, you know, they don't have, YouTube takes such a big cut that I think, you know,

comparatively, I think his boxing stuff, I think if they're smart, they're doing it like Floyd Mayweather, where they are the promoter. So they're the promoter and they're the talent. And they put on the show. And then they kind of license.

deal with Triller or whoever to split the like paper view buys on top of that. So I would guess their boxing stuff is going to bring in like $5 million to $10 million also. And then on top of that is like anything else, you know, which is like maybe t-shirts, maybe merch, maybe other stuff. So I feel like the whole thing. I bet you they, I bet you, I bet you him and his brother sell collectively 20 to $30 million a year in merch. Yeah, which is insane.

I think his brother does does more. I think his brother is a bigger. enterprise than Jake is because that his brother has the impulsive podcast which I think is like the number one podcast uh you know or like it's like top 10 or something like that because um if you include like the YouTube views they get so I think that podcast has turned into a big thing for them and then Logan also has like Maverick as his brand and like it's merch brand or whatever and I think that that's like a stronger brand overall and has like a larger following than than what Jake has. That's my guess but I'm not like I don't follow them professionally.

Me neither. I bet you he spends a ton of money. If I had a bet, I would bet that the difference between like Jake Paul person and Jake Paul media is probably quite like every all every expense is probably media expense or the company expense. So it's not the same or not really different. I bet you he spends at least half a million a month. That's a lot. Yeah, but he's got his crew, right? It's like all all celebrities. You have a policy that rolls with you. It's like, we're flying here. You know, like they took a private jet after our podcast. He got on a private jet. flew to wherever they're going to do the fight for fight week. And because he's got a big boxing match on Saturday. So, you know, the one thing I was going to ask you is, you know, whenever somebody meets a celebrity, I always ask, what's he like? What's she like? Which is, it doesn't really matter what you say.

It's like the conversation is usually not typically that interesting. But it is interesting to be like, what's that person like in real life? So what was your impression? What's he like? Respectful, kind of quiet, listened more than. Then he talked. He was just like a quiet, a quiet young person. I mean, he seemed confident enough, but he was very polite.

In the podcast, on the podcast, Sean basically put me on the spot and was like, oh, so Sam wants you to lose. And he handled it gracefully. Right. So, like, respectfully. Like, he didn't say like, oh, you f it suck. He didn't disrespect Ben at all. So I thought he was very, he was polite. He didn't big time us.

He, you know, which we've had that experience with other people. who either come on the pod or we're trying to get on the pod, they'll, you know, people who are famous and have a bunch of, like, obligations. Everybody wants a piece of their time. Everybody wants to have them interviewed or whatever. It's easy to kind of big time other people. I thought he was extremely respectful, did not do that at all, you know, brought his, you know, A game to the table. I thought, like, you know, this guy really is in some ways a marketing genius. Like, to build his self brand up the way he did is actually quite impressive. It's to me, as impressive as building, you know, I don't know, whatever, the brand of Jinko jeans or, you know,

whatever, like any brand that kind of like hits some pocket of culture. Well, let's put this in context as well. I think he's 23. 24, yeah. She's 24. So I think before the podcast started, we were like, by the way, maybe we should put this segment like at the end. We should move it to that pod.

Yeah. Yeah. But he said something like, yeah, we're like, do you invest? He invested. He was, yeah, I've been angel investing since I was like 18. 16. But I, is that what he said? He's like, I have a pretty large real estate portfolio.

Like I invested real estate. I'm like, oh, wow, you're, you've been doing this longer than I have. And I'm seven years older than you. Right. So that's pretty amazing. And you forget that. You forget that. Like, whenever I see LeBron, like young videos of LeBron when he, you know,

his rookie year because I like to watch like old YouTube clips of him doing stuff. I'm like, wait a minute. This guy's 19. He's got reporters in his face asking him, like, you know, you threw the towel and you were kind of disrespectful. And he handled it with such poise answering that question. And I was like, what was I like when I was thinking? Yeah, I was a total shit. And what was I like when I was Jake Paul, 23 years old?

It's pretty amazing. Yeah, there's videos of me goofing around pranking people or trying to make funny YouTube videos when I was probably 16, 17 years old that, you know, I'd get canceled for today, right? Because it was just a dummy. I didn't know anything about anything. I couldn't handle, like, any kind of. serious conversation. I didn't have a real estate portfolio. I wasn't that guy. And I think this type of, getting famous forces you to grow up one way or another. And also like a big part of it's who's around you. I'm pretty fascinated by all these like childhood, child celebrities. And it's like you see

that their dad is the manager. And then like they get to kind of take it advantage of by their best friend who stole from them. And like this is so common. Like that's not it's not surprising when you hear that. It's like, oh, yep, that's the pretty much par for the course here with athletes. and musicians and child actors, like, that's just how it goes. And I would say the transition from like, A, platform to platform, right, getting big on Vine. So go to new platform, get big there.

Boom, move to YouTube. Then from YouTube, Instagram. Okay, so cool, you're building up your social following. Then it's like, all right, what got me famous was, you know, B being pranks and jokes and silly stuff. And then now, you know, Logan Paul's podcast is like, actually like more like real conversations. and they bring on, you know, crypto people and they talk about investing and they talk about

this other thing. They bring on, you know, a porn star. They'll talk about that. They'll talk about a wider variety of things. And then you go, then there, it's like, okay, so they stayed relevant on social media for a while, which is hard. Then transition to this boxing thing, which I think is kind of a genius move, this like celebrity boxing angle that they took because they're making a lot of money.

And now they're like, just like a different chapter. It's like they got off the daily vlogging treadmill. which every YouTuber burns out on. And they're like, all right, screw it. I'm going to go train for nine months. I'm going to do a boxing match against this other YouTuber. Neither of us are really in any danger because we're both suck at boxing, but we're each going to pull down millions of dollars and do something different with our life.

Right. It's like, oh, that's cool. Then it's like building businesses, starting a rolling fund. It's like continually reinventing yourself is interesting to me. I think if you listen to like whenever we do Billy of the Week, it's usually somebody who's reinvented themselves and three or four different chapters of their life that is interesting. This guy's, I thought that was kind of cool how he's done that.

He didn't say any of those things, but just when I was doing the research, I was kind of taken aback by, oh yeah, that's cool. He's already had like three, three to four pretty interesting chapters before the age of 25. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like my days off on a road. Let's travel. Never looking back.