My First Million - #84 with Noah Kagan - How the Founder of AppSumo Walked Away From $100m

Episode Date: June 19, 2020

Joined our private FB group yet? It's a page where people share each others million dollar ideas or what they're already working on: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ourfirstmillion. Sam Parr (@theSamParr) and Shaan Puri (@ShaanVP) catch up with Noah Kagan (@noahkagan), founder of AppSumo and OkDork.com. Before that, he was employee #30 at Facebook, #4 at Mint, and worked at Intel. In today’s episode we hear about Noah’s background (1:05), Noah talks about the different between needing to do things and choosing to do things (5:58), how Noah thinks about finding customers (12:30), Sam asks for Noah’s framework for knowing how and when to build a new product (16:10, Noah talks about how our greatest strengths are also our greatest weaknesses (18:12), Shaan joins the podcast (27:00), Shaan asks Noah how he would build a company now if he was 21 with no name recognition (33:50), Noah leaves the podcast and Sam and Shaan talk through Sam’s upcoming road trip and future ideas (50:30).  See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

No, what's going on? Sam Par. In meetings all day, and then I'm heading out to California in four hours. So I was just, I haven't been on this podcast in a minute because I was in Austin. I drove from California to Austin. I hung out with Noah and Neville and a bunch of people. And now Noah is coming to Malibu or? I'm coming to SF for a month, and then I'm going to go to Malibu for a month.

Where are you staying in San Francisco? Andrew Chen's house. Oh, that's right. You told me. I've decided that I'm going to get rid of my apartment in San Francisco and I'm going to live in different cities for one or two months each. We're copying each other, Sam. You went bald, so I went bald. I'm moving places. So you're moving places. I need to get glasses, a dog. Well, yeah, you need a few things. I need a few things. You're funny. We, uh, we know each other well, but can you tell the listeners who you are? What is up, you sexy listeners? listeners. Noah Kagan. I'm a cyclist. I'm a chess player. Lately, I'm making a lot of content on YouTube about everything I'm learning at Appsumo.com. That's YouTube.com slash OKDork.

I helped start appsumo.com, which is the number one site online for software deals, an eight-figure company. Been around 10 years. I was number 30 at Facebook, number four at mint.com. And then the two other things that I like working on and playing with businesswise is sendfox.com, which is a free email list for content creators. And OKDork.com, which is my site about overcoming fear, starting and marketing startups. And Noah and I have known each other for six or seven years. Oh, wow. Now, I think you're five or six years older than me.

We're very similar personalities. We're a little crazy. We have a bunch of different ideas. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah, I didn't like you for a long time. Why? So sometimes you'll hang out with Sam. if you guys have hung out or had the chance, you'll hang out with Sammy's like, how much money

you're making doing this one thing? And it's like, it's like someone asks you like, how big is your penis? You're like, dude, I don't know you. And you're asking a really personal, kind of aggressive. It's almost, it's like to the level of transactional that's just a little too much versus what you'd expect from a friend. And I think sometimes it's interesting to observe the people or companies that were jealous of or the companies were reacting negatively to and really trying to understand that. And our first experience, I think if I recall, you wanted me to come speak at the hustle. conference. No, I wanted you to, it was, yeah, I wanted you to speak at an event. And I, I, you asked me to write a blog post for you and I wrote this blog post. And then? You didn't publish it. And I was like, what the fuck? There was just weird vibes I was getting from you. And so it didn't make me excited to want to do anything. And then you sent me like a neutral bullet or some kind of item. And I was just like, this guy weirds me out. I don't like how he's behaving. And so over the years, though, I've started to appreciate your quirkiness. And it's probably like me. I'm sure some people are listening to me, but like, I don't like, I don't like. the style. I think the point for everyone is not to just go and accept everyone and love everything, but to observe our jealousy, observe our negativity, observe our criticism, and think about what we're

trying to really say about ourselves or learn about ourselves. I think one thing I would say about you, Sam, that I've appreciated, is that it's interesting to observe the people in life who get what they want. Because those people, you don't see all the things they're not getting. And I really respect with Sam how persevering you are. I think there's a lot of times where I'm like, oh, yeah, this guy's going to, there's so many people I'm like, oh, they're going to quit soon. And I definitely, you know, the hustle wouldn't be anything without effort. And I think without you just kept going and won't stop. And I think more people have to, some people are like, well, I don't have that.

I'm not Sam Power. I'm not Noah Kagan. I'm not, it's like, yeah, you're yourself, which is even better. And it's just finding the things that you'd never want to give up on. So find your hustle, find your app sumo, find your okay dork.com. And just find something you'll never quit on and then go for it. And that's one thing I've definitely appreciated watching your journey from afar. You said you didn't like me or I rubbed you the wrong way.

Were you saying that? And then you said jealousy. You're saying because you think I was jealous of you or you jealous of me. No, I think at that time I just found you kind of, I was uncertain of your motive. It's been in like six years, so I'm not exactly sure. I don't. I think everyone's favorite story is themselves. So if you ever want to talk to someone, be like, hey, you know what I notice about you?

And they're like, what? But I think feedback is a whole other thing. We can talk about that. I think I just had a weird vibe and I didn't know what your intentions were. And I think what was interesting is like, other friends of ours were like, oh, yeah, he is a good dude. But I was like, I guess I'm missing something. So let's, we're going to talk about business in a second. And I think this is kind of an interesting conversation because, but I think that what has brought us to be friends is our mutual

friend, Neville Madora, who is both of ours best friend. He was the best man in my wedding. And you have a, well, you have a brother, but he probably had it not been for your brother, he probably would be in that category for you as well. And so it's interesting how, you have, like like you could we both see how we're loyal to one person and that brings like good qualities out of each other i think neville said i'm his number one i don't know if you talked to him recently well we can fight over that if you is that what he says in bed to both of us he's like no i never said he said i was number one but i you know we both we're both loyal to similar people um so let's talk about let's talk about different interesting companies and businesses that we're both

looking at because you and I are the same and that we're both like pretty big schemers and not that we do shit all the time but we both like like to figure out how things work um what are you looking at like you're really interested in the in the email space with send fox um i'm interested in that as well what what interests you about email like why are you like because ab sumo's pretty successful um you don't have to start new shit if you didn't want to why are you choosing send fox i think choosing One of my favorite books around the words that you use is the Dalai Lama's art of happiness. And I love that you were chose, right? Because I don't have to do anything.

I want to do things. I don't need to do stuff. I want stuff. And I think it's interesting for all of us to be aware of that. Namaste everyone. I think what in my life, I think one of the things that drives me is curiosity. And I think in terms of business, like if people out there, you know, listening to this and say, hey, I want to get my business started.

The best business to start is something that solves your own problem. And so for me, I was using mailchurch. I've used Convert Kit. I've checked out a Weber. One, I found him way over expensive. I found him way over complicated. It took me like 45 minutes to set up a MailChimp email. And so I was like, I just want something more affordable and simpler. And that's why we built SunFox. And I think that's something where I'll keep working on it forever with the team. I think what's interesting is trying to think about what's going to happen in the next six months to six years. And then how do I be a little bit ahead of everyone else? So if you think about it, let me ask you Sam, do you think there's

going to be more or less content creators in the future. Absolutely more. So I think, you know, the one problem that I noticed with all the channels like YouTube or Instagram or TikTok or any of these is that ultimately they are incentivized to get you to pay to talk to your audience. Why? Because they have to make money. And so email is the only channel I've ever found that can scale communicating with an audience that you can fully control. And so I think if Send Fox becomes the number one place for people to grow their audiences. One, I want it for myself, number one, and two, is just a really big and interesting opportunity to work on.

So we send, how many emails do I send a year? Maybe six or 700 million? I don't even know, to be honest. AppsFumo probably has a similar amount of emails, like hundreds of millions of sends per year. I pay, I think I pay 10 or 15 grand a month to send those. Does that sound right? I don't really know.

I think there's two things that are more interesting to me. One, I've been focusing more on the total audience that you have available because email is a component of your audience, right? So you actually have like hustle Facebook, hustle Instagram, hustle YouTube, hustle podcast, and your total active audience and there's overlap, that number I'm actually more fascinated with. And the second thing with email, I think the metric cost is one thing, but I think the metric that Well, you said send Fox was trying to make it cheaper because you're, because you're

more affordable. I don't like the word. More affordable. Yeah. More affordable. How much does that cost to send? I'll tell you. If you take 0.0002 and then times up by how many emails.

So the thing that MailChimp and ConvertKit and all these guys, so 0.0002 times your number. So they make money if you don't send emails. Because they make money off your subscriber. Of course. And so the way that's, so SendFox is free and then we're a one-time payment because most people don't actually email. And so we're trying to fix that and work through those kind of challenges with people. But the other thing I think people need to think about in terms of growing their community or starting a newsletter. Like if you don't have one, start it today.

You sendfox.com, number one. But the second thing is the number that's the most important is not your email list size. It is your active email list size. So it is the amount of people within three months that have opened and clicked your email. Because, you know, I've had hundreds of thousands. I think in my total lifetime of OK, dork, I've had 175,000 subscribe to the newsletter. My active audience is only 55. Think about that.

And that's what we do too But we churn people every Three months Like we sunset them Like where we send them an email And be like hey you're gonna get we're gonna take you off this list What percentage is it? I don't know off the top of my head to be honest with you

But I know that like one I could tell you this though So like our open rate's really really high Right now it's like 55% And I think the average person stays two years So you could somehow Figure out what that is Yeah but but

But like if we don't get them on the hook right away, then they're never going to get on the hook. How do you get on the hook? Your welcome email needs to be really good. Your thank you page after they sign up needs to be really good. You know this shit. This is what you did. No, it's good. Dude, here's the thing.

I'm still learning. Even your unsubscribe page needs to be great, which you, didn't you have a really good unsubscribe page? Yeah, but I gave up on that one. I think the thank you page and your welcome thing are like the two of the most neglected pieces of marketing. Yeah, I call them like you have to make. the forgotten parts really good. So like your thank you page, your welcome email, your unsubscribe page, just like little Easter egg shit like that. That needs to be good. What do you recommend for those?

To make them good? Yeah. Well, our, so I get accused of stealing CD babies email, welcome email, which I didn't even know what that was. But then when I saw it, I realized, oh yeah, I can, I totally understand why people see that. I think I stole that. But my welcome email, was like a really detailed welcome email that it was like really long and explained what happened when you signed up and it was pretty funny and like if you google like the hustle welcome email a lot of people wrote about it um people seem to like that so just like being creative and writing long form content about what happened after those types of things um when those people signed up it it works pretty well but with so let's say like convert kit let's say convert kit is doing 20 million

dollars a year in sales which convert kit's awesome because i like the guy who started it i like convert kit and they reveal all their revenue numbers. If they're doing $20 million in revenue, like you said that you were trying to make Send Fox more affordable. I have no idea. How much do they actually charge, think to, or how much are they, what's their cogs in order to send all those emails? 0.002.

It might be 0.0015 times how many subscribers are sending them on. The profit is all in the people who don't email. It's basically, I think of email marketing companies is very expensive hosting. You're basically paying a lot of money to host zeros and ones. digits that don't cost anything. And so I think more importantly, if people are trying to start, like, that's a really interesting business to start. It's also interesting business to disrupt.

Like, I think Substack has done amazing with it coming at it from like, hey, email is actually free and we're going to make money on the subscription part, so you don't have to pay for email anymore. Same with SendFox. It's like it's mostly free and we're going to be focusing, we're focusing more on like YouTubers and podcasters. So it's like, who are the audiences that aren't really emailing enough or don't know how to email for this specific type of audience?

I think a market for that is musician. bands. I think there's a huge, like, if you look at the money where musicians make it, it's in concerts, and they're horrible at notifying you when they're coming into town. You have to serve a customer that I think you have an understanding of. I think a lot of these want entrepreneurs out there are like, oh, yeah, let me go help musicians. I'm like, one, I don't know shit about musicians. I'm learning to play piano.

It's right here. But the point being is, I think we, it's not that you shouldn't go outside of your comfort zone. I just think that there's easier ways of success, and I think too many people make it too hard in themselves. And it's just like go into your own problems or go into problems of people around you that you have easier access to. What about, have you been looking into AMP for email? Yeah, some of this stuff. I mean, I also, you know, there's also talk about, hey, email's dying and all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know, people are still using it left and right. I've seen AMP where it's like a little bit more of dynamic and faster loading emails. I think the most

important thing about email is not necessarily the layouts and all that stuff. I think the most important thing is how do you build a relationship where people are expecting your email? Where like if I stopped emailing or the hustle didn't come, they're like, something is wrong with my day. And until you get to that point, you're probably worrying about the wrong problems. Yeah, I mean, that's the hard part, obviously. That's like, how do you create? I mean, that's just about creating good shit. But I still think the whole AMP thing is actually super interesting. What I'm working on is a few ways to hack it, because I'm, I kind of am obsessed with, like, storytelling in email. And so what can you, like, if you think about what is a GIF? To me, a GIF is a movable image that has no sound. Well, so is most of

the video that you use on Instagram on Facebook. It's just audio, or it's just a video with no sound, like, because a lot of times you don't even click. And so what I'm interested is how can I use amp to tell a story in an email in a video format or like all these other hacks like that? That's incredibly interesting to me. I think there's something there with that. The thing that we've been doing with SendFox that we've been building in is there's kind of like two major components that I think are lacking in email. So number one is how do you build in like what the hustle and Morning Brew have, which is build in referrals. So we've basically built that in so anyone can have their own referral engine within emails. By the way, that was a that was a huge pain in the ass for us.

No, no, so we built it and it works. And I'm doing it on, okay, so if you go to sendfox.com slash Noah, you can see how it looks or sign up for yourself and it's built in for free. I think the second thing that we're observing. So what everyone wants is like, how do I grow my audience and how do I send consistent emails? Because if you're not sending something weekly, you get forgotten. And in this age of attention, we're all fighting for it. And so we built this thing called weekly newsletter template. I think they're branding it smart campaigns.

And so the idea there is that we suck in all of your social information and we look at what's most popular. And then we basically just like we recommend like, hey, here's the three things that you should email your audience this week. And so that's what I do every Wednesday. I just pull two of my favorite things and one of someone else's to try to spread joy and love and build relationships. with people I don't know yet. How many people are working on SunFox? I think there's two developers, one designer. David is the GM, maybe like six.

So, hey, did you see Hay? Obviously you saw that. So for those who don't know, hey.com, it's a new email service. It's pretty neat. I don't know if it's going to be big, but I definitely, I think it's cool that they are trying that. I think it actually will be big, but that's irrelevant. What that company did, it started by 37,

They have a team of like 50 people and they make money through base camp, I think, right? That's their main thing. And they've used all those profits to fund, hey, which I don't know how many engineers they had on that, probably a lot actually. It's pretty robust already. At my company, what I'm trying to do is we're taking all our profits and we're launching more stuff. How are you figuring out how much of your profit to allocate to these side projects like

CENFox and like these new products? So the way that we've approached it recently is a little bit more structured. The question that we ask is basically two things. One, can we make our money back within 18 months? Got it, 18 months. So will we make break even money back 18 months? And secondly, is it at least a seven-figure decision? So is it at least, if it's not a seven-figure opportunity, we won't do it.

The reality is the majority of the money is best spent into whatever is making the most money from a capitalist's standpoint. Some of that stuff is short term versus long term. And so with Send Fox right now, we made our money back immediately because there's only one developer part-time and one GM. And then as it started becoming more profitable, it was like, all right, well, let's make sure it's a seven-figure business. And now we're focusing on because we know it's a seven-figure opportunity. We're saying, how do we get this to be a hundred figure, a hundred million dollar business? Whatever, yeah. But we're more focused right now on building our goal there is active audience.

So I think one thing with company metrics is how do you line your customer success to your company metric success, your company North Star? So for Send Fox, right now we're at a million active audience, meaning of all of our customers, we reach a million active customers through them. And so if we can grow that number to three million, that's our goal this year, then all of our customers is more successful. And then we will be subsequently more successful. So how long have you had people working on it? Send Fox about two years. I mean, what's fascinating about this just as a quick side note, Sam, is that there's a debate internally, not debate, but there's discussion internally that if we would have spent all the money and time that we built on SunFox and King Sumo and Hall Drop and MeatFam and all the things we've done just on App Sumo, the main thing, would it have been a hundred million dollar business today? And the likelihood is yeah. I'm going through the same process where I'm like, man, I got this cash cow and a lot of people listening, they also have the same thing where they have these companies.

but like we're fucking degenerates and we can't not make shit. Do you know what I mean? Well, our greatest strengths are generally our greatest weaknesses. So our greatest strength for, I don't know, I won't speak for you. My greatest strength is igniting. Like I go and start something and I'm like really quick and I'm really fast. My greatest weakness is like consistency. I always think of it as like a, I'm a great igniter,

but I'm not a great consistent source of fuel. And so you have to find that balance of who is your fuel? So for me, Aeman is fuel. David over at Sinfox is fuel. And then I can go focus on the igniting part. And I think that's where you can find success in life, which is what are you fucking amazing at? Just do that stuff.

And it's hard because we feel guilty or we feel weak. But it is finding the people that can compliment you on those other sides. But take another example. Like the two my favorite examples that everyone knows is Netflix and Amazon. Netflix is worth $200 billion from one $999 a month subscription. So Amazon, on the other hand, is worth a trillion. and they've got, in terms of significant revenue streams, probably like three or four. And so I don't think there's many different ways of eating a Reese's peanut butter cup.

I think you have to kind of figure it out for yourself what style of business. So for me, with mine, I literally thought about this this morning. My ambitions and enjoyment and fulfillment come from like promoting dope stuff, which we do on Absumo, sharing what I'm learning while doing that, which is happening on YouTube and my podcast. No Kaking Presents Podcast. And then three, making things that I want for myself, which is Send Fox. And I'm like, can I just do this until I die? Or maybe I'll do this if I can live forever. And I think that's what we're all striving for.

Can I ask you? I did a pod recently where I talked about delegating and hiring like a CEO and general managers. I've learned how to do this through reading a few books. I learned how to do this from talking to David Hauser, who we're friends with. I learned how to do it through talking indirectly, like learning from you on how to do it. I would talk to Amen. I would talk to you a little bit about it. I would talk to Neville.

What was your process like for doing that? Because you have three or four. How many GMs do you have or whatever you call them? I think there's three GMs right now. So there's HallDrop, there's App Sumo, and then there's SennFox. David does SennFox and King Sumo. I think what's actually interesting taking a step back, how many CEOs do you think there are in Amazon? CEO title or job descriptions?

People who were CEOs in their own businesses that are now running divisions of Amazon. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. And so the people that want to start their own businesses, if you can figure out how to align their incentives and their motivation within your business, is how you create a trillion dollar business. And so there's a bunch of examples of this, by the way. There's Alibaba. Rocket Internet has done this wonderfully. Sounds like you're doing it well. Who else has done it well?

Amazon has done it well. There's a way more where they, a company. I'm obsessed with is Coke, Coke family, the Coke Industries, they've done this. Oh, cock? I always call it cock, but I get corrected and it's Coke. Who cares? Let's call them Rich. The old white fucks.

No, I don't know if they're fucks, but I think in terms of delegation and leadership, I actually think one of my superpowers is just like observations of greatness. So here's something, it's like who fucking cares about Noah? I think what I would do as a listener, and this is what I still do this day. I'm almost 40 and I still do this. anytime you notice anything impressive, reach out to the person. That's it. And over your lifetime, figure out, how the fuck do I get around that guy or girl?

And I think that will lead you to an easier chances of greatness. Because it's a lot harder to go out and try to date and find people from the ground up. It's much easier if you're like, man, like, you know, the people I worked at Facebook, honestly, the best ever. Literally the best ever. And so it's like, oh, shit, I haven't been able to keep around them because we had a falling out, obviously. but it's like all right how do I have more of that so like Garrett Garrett's the lead developer on send fox he built a WordPress plugin that I bought for like a hundred dollars like six seven years ago and then I said hey can I pay you like 25 30 bucks an hour to fix it and he was so impressive

and he did it for a year and I told Chad my business partner I was like dude this guy is fucking fire and I was like we just need to hire him full time and let him do whatever he wants and pay him whatever he wants and it's pretty much what we've done now he works in send fox and his output is remarkable. And so I think with GMs and things like that, I'd say ultimately it's like you want to find the people that blow you away. But those people basically, you want the people who want to run their own businesses.

And then two things. You want to give them a challenging goal. And then you want to give them some boundaries and then leave them alone. And that's the simplest and most complicated thing to do. Can you elaborate on that more? Because so I've hired a president of my company. And it's pretty great because like I get just all the shit I don't want to do. He likes to do, so it works out well. Where I struggle is I still like get into

it. I get into his way. Hey, this sucks. You need to fix it this way, this way, this way, this way, and this way. Are you doing that with your people? So let me correct you. They're not my people. The people who you work with. Yeah. I think that's a big difference. And I know it might sound like, oh, no, but I think I never say employees. I never say it's mine. Is there the technical of do I own more of the business than others? Yeah, but I think if you want people to be leaders, they have to lead and they can't ask for permission to do it. You know, a lot of times one of my favorite lines that I've been saying in the company lately is people ask me something. I'm like, who's in charge? I say this a lot. I probably say this at least once a day. I'm like,

who's in charge? And they're like, me? I'm like, yeah, damn right. It's you. Don't fucking look at me. I don't know. And so I think the more that you, the way I've been looking at myself lately with the team is where is my excellence and where can I do the best job of coaching and I hate when I've heard that because when I've heard that I'm like what does that mean what are they coaching and so let me be specific so with dork like I've hired a team of four people to help build out my brand and to help spread the message of overcoming fear and starting businesses and there these these people went through the gauntlet to get the job I'm clear on where they want to go I'm very clear on where they personally want to go and so my job

is to help them get what they want. And it's kind of like the Jim Rohn quote. If I can help them get what they want, I can get what I want. And so I learned this when I got rejected from Microsoft as a job. I had an internship. And you know when you intern, you get the job guaranteed? You know about that? No.

Most times when you intern, you get the job guaranteed, I was like the one of the few that didn't get it. It's like, damn, I'm an underdog, man. I'm still fucking fighting. But I did learn something in the job interview that I never forgotten. He's like, here's the best way to lead. I'm like, tell me. And best way to coach.

He's like, you give them a football. You tell them where the end zone is. You say, hey, here's the boundaries to get to the end zone. How you want to score is up to you. And I think what I've learned really well over the past two years is you don't want to be a seagull. You know the seagull theory? No. You come in.

Were you just chirping at them? Yeah, you come in, shit and fly away. I was doing a lot of seagull theory for a few years. Did you coin that or is that a thing? I mean, is that your phrase? Yeah. Oh, all right, cool. Well, I don't want to be shitting on people and flying away.

I think it's like, how do you lean in, Cheryl Sandberg style, and step into these challenges because I think what I always admire is solution thinking, right? Like, am I coming and complaining? And am I bringing more problems or am I bringing more solutions? So anyways, in terms of coaching, like with Amon who's running Absumo, especially lately, I feel like more of an advisor in a very effective way. And I think it's a really fine line because you don't want resentment. So Amin wants to do this one thing recently.

And I'm like, do I just let him do everything and resent it? Like, oh, fuck you, man, I totally disagree with you. Or do I say, no, Amon, do this thing. You must do it my fucking way. It's the Noah Kagan way. My dad used to say this when I was a little kid. He's like, my way or the highway. I was like, dude, I am eight years old.

Like, I don't know what you want from me. And I don't think it could be either way of those. I think it needs to be somewhere in the middle where I don't want to feel resented. I don't resentment towards Aiman. I don't want it to be a dictator because the worst thing I think you could do is hiring someone is demotivate them. That is probably like one of the dirtiest things you could ever do to anyone is like, and I've done that twice to Aman and Chad,

and they both said it to me and I felt really bad about it. And I felt really like, I don't want them working for me. I don't want them, I want them waking up thinking about it and loving it, which is what you want from a lot of people in the team. And so I think with Aiman ultimately, it's saying like, how can I, like a lot of times we have goals. He has boundaries, budgets.

And then the question I ask is, how can I be most helpful? And so really kind of coming from that approach. Because at the end of the day, if he's driving the results, I don't give a fuck how he plays the game at the end of the day. As long as the score is looking good and it's within the boundaries. So Sean is joining us now. Go ahead, Sean. I think you have, I'm a student at the moment.

I think Sean had something to say. First, what's up, Noah? Hey, buddy. Sorry for joining late. I've been following your blog for a long time. I remember you wrote a bunch of shit that was like, you know, I walked away from 100 million bucks or whatever it was. I didn't walk away, I got fired, but yes.

Yeah, you know, my $100 million mistake or whatever it was. But I, and I've pointed to a bunch of your tools. And so I just want to pause for a second, say one of the ways I got good at marketing is by stealing your shit. And if somebody out there wants to get good at marketing, especially content marketing, go read the stuff about how you built mint and, you know, just how you built your own personal brand. Just go observe the meta of what you were doing. Look at some of the spreadsheets that you linked out. that shit's actually pretty useful. And there's like a fine line usually between like,

I always have this like big skepticism. When somebody spends so much of their time telling me how to do something, I'm like, well, how much of your time are you actually spending doing that thing? Are you even, are you one of those people who you get rich teaching other people to be rich type of thing? And, you know, the thing I liked about you and a few others that we, we vouch for on this podcast is, no, there's some people who actually have done it. They've actually grown shit from scratch to scale several times. They've probably fallen over and failed a couple times.

But they just like to talk. They like to share. And they like the feedback loop of sharing out that knowledge in those experiences. And they're legit. And so I would say like go back, go to the archive. I haven't read any of your new stuff, but go read the archive, the OG shit, because it was really good. Thanks, bro. Yeah.

I mean, I think one of the things I'm doing recently in terms of marketing, I think overall, you know, when I fill out, when I fell out applications, like I was filling out, I'm signed up for relationship therapy, start next week. She's like, what's my occupation? And I always write engineer, because that's what I always dreamed of being. But I'm not, I don't think I'm smart enough. So I faced it this, when I was filling it out, I deleted that and I was like, marketer. Marketer always seems like a therapy starts here. You wrote engineer. You're not an engineer. What? Okay, let's forget your relationship. So anyways, I think what I've accepted, it's not that I've ever been a marketer. I'm just, I'm a promoter of greatness. And I'm looking for it.

it and I'm sharing it and I'm exploring it in myself. I think the thing that I've done recently that it's a simple it's marketing 101 is with my YouTube that's that's been like our big focus so I think the two things there's a few things in marketing I'll say three things that I think are simplistic simplest you know that's not in the world but uh number one have a just singular goal Facebook did it absuma.com has done it and I think with even recently with my dork world and helping people overcome fear and start businesses I'm kind of like having a bunch of goals I'm like here's our TikTok goal here's our Instagram goal, here's our email list goal, here's our organic traffic goal, here's this, I'm like, what is our most important goal? And I was like, just even pick one for some period of time.

And so I think I've come into that realization, like let's just pick YouTube and just be okay with that. And guess what? That'll rise all other ships. So don't be ignorant of those other ones, but just focus on one. Second thing is that as I was doing a lot of this content recently, which has gotten me really fulfilled, and it feels good, feels great. on YouTube or okay dork.com. Mostly YouTube, mostly in YouTube world. The second thing that's been most critical,

and this is really hard because everyone says they do this or wants to do this but doesn't, who is my audience? Who is the audience that I really want to be helping and communicate with? Because on one hand,

I want to connect with like nine figure CEOs and 10 figure CEOs. And I, you know, I actually don't think there's a lot of content of how do you go from seven to eight or eight to nine

and I can share how we do it. But that audience is really small and they don't really need as much help. And so we've realized, like, our audience is dudes, 25 to 40 that have tried to start a business that haven't been successful, that are afraid of failing and need a little bit of help. And so I think the second part of marketing that I've gotten revisiting is who am I really trying to talk to? And what are the words? So like, here are some words that we've even identified that our audience resonates with rat race, freedom. So I'm like, really? All right. Self-doubt.

So those are some of the things that I'm thinking about. And then the third part that we're I think that's applicable for every business is what is your unique strategy of success? Like so with that we have two parts. One, what's our core messages that we're, this is our unique like bread and butter that you will know. I was talking with the meat about this. And he's like, what did them, you have so many messages. Just pick three.

So I was like, all right, challenges to overcome fear, million dollar weekend and behind the scenes of an eight figure company. That's the three that we're going to do. And that's it. And then the second part of, wait, wait, say that again. So those three are the three what? So basically, let's take a step back. So one, what's your goal?

Pick one goal. Number two, who is your customer? Number three, what is your core messages that people know you for? So for me, those are the three that I'm going to be known for. Challenges, which I always tell people to do the coffee challenge, which is ask for 10% off when you buy coffee. You're going to be afraid. You're going to learn about yourself and you're going to grow.

Secondly, is behind the scenes of an eight-figure company. So, like, how do you, like, there's not a lot of people that have that experience, and I can do that. And the third part is how do you actually. get a million dollar business or a hundred dollar you know a million dollar business started in a weekend which i've done many many times and i can share which is unique and then the last part of this marketing equation that i think i'm exploring and revisiting around all these things is what is my unique strategy or what is my strategy of doing that i think where i've been very successful is i

just do a lot of stuff and eventually something works but i think i will be even more successful slowing down being a little more thoughtful with these things and so our unique strategy lately has been do the fast stuff, but on lower risk items. So basically tweet and Instagram and LinkedIn post fucking everything, like throw it all out there unlimitedly. And then based on what works, aligning to our core messages, that's what we'll go deeper in. That's what we'll write a blog post about.

That's what we'll do an interview about. That's what we will do a YouTube video about. And so it's just having a higher likelihood of home runs. Interesting. I'm curious. So how old are you now? You said you're almost 40? I look and feel 32, but I'd say I'm about in physicality, in our society 38.

Not physicality. In our whatever traditions, I'm 38. Okay, cool. I'm the opposite. I am 32 and I look and feel 38. You do look 38, bro. I'm trying to go the other way. I said I would love.

So if you were 21 again, 21, no network, no name brand. You're starting up from scratch. And you don't have to go the same pathway you went. I'm curious, you know, if you had the luxury of picking any path, now that you know of so many more paths than you probably knew about when you were 21, what path would you go down? Honestly, I think I'd copy my path. Which would be what? So you're 21. What do you do?

I'll tell you exactly what I did. I didn't know what the fuck to do. So I went and tried a bunch of stuff out to figure out what to do. I think the only, I think one question is what Delta would I have chosen? And I'll tell you exactly what that was. So at 21, I didn't know what a BS was. I got it from Berkeley. I was like, oh, Bachelor Science is cool.

Everyone kind of follows a stream, right? Like when you graduate from college, which I think less and less is becoming important, everyone's like, oh, get a job, go to Intel, go to wherever. And I was like, okay, I guess that's what everyone's doing. But I've always wanted to start my own company. I just didn't know what to do. And so I think the two things that I did really well when I had that day job at Intel was I use that as my investor.

And the two things I'd recommend is that I started a lot of businesses. So if you're like, I don't have any idea. Two things you can do. One, go to sendfox.com and start a newsletter. and send an email once a week for 365 days or for 52 weeks. That's number one. Or number two, go on YouTube, take the Ryan Holiday Challenge, and post a video on YouTube for 30 days.

Start there. The second thing that I did is that I connected with people very aggressively and I asked anyone I knew for anyone that they knew that was really smart. That's how I met Tim Ferriss. That's how I met Orrin Hoffman, Dave McClure, James Hong, Max Levchen, Ramit Sethi. I basically put on events. I hosted lunches.

I organized conferences. I didn't know anyone, but I wanted to bring smart people together. So if you don't know any smart people, find one smart person and say, hey, you should meet this smart person and then just go and hang out with both of them. Guy and girl. And guess what? You can do it on Zoom if you're in a remote country. Or if you don't have any connections, I think one of the ones I've really observed lately,

every person I've hired that's been the most impressive has done two things. They've offered something for free of value that I've wanted. And they did it without asking. And those people have been the most impressive. And guess what? Now, they're like, hey, I want to meet this person. I want to do this thing. I want to grow here. I'm like that most of them are now working with me. And so I think I would have, that was something very early on. I was very aggressive on meeting people and just trying to build my brand. In terms of career, I think the two things, one thing I did very well is I was really great about following my curiosity and things I was really excited about. So I really loved Facebook and I really loved Mint. And I was like, I'll do whatever it takes to work there. I think the only difference I would have chosen is find someone 10 to 20, years ahead of me that I think is doing the things I would like to do in 10 to 20 years and be obsessed or aggressive in figuring out how to make them excited to want to be a part of my life. So I had one guy, Doug Hirsch, who was my boss at Facebook, and it didn't really work out as well

as a mentorship. But it's nice because you can say, oh, that's how you do a relationship. Oh, that's how you do a career. And it'll shortcut it. You just have to figure out the real most important thing is how do you get them to give a fuck about you? And the best way to do that is help them with whatever things they're working on. You want to hear something crazy? Sean, I don't know if you know this, but I don't know if Noah knows it.

But I launched my, I created my, so my company, which is a, it's an okay company. It's been good for me. It started because Noah had a blog post about organizing conferences. And I was like, I, what was it called? It was called like how I made 90K hosting a conference or something. Was that it, Noah? I made a quarter million dollars in conferences because I didn't know I was going to make money doing them. Yeah, so I saw that and I was like, well, I had a book club at the time and I was like, well, I've been hosting these meetups, but I don't make any money from it. I should like make money off this thing. And so I started my company and I've made millions of dollars personally off conferences because of that blog post. And more importantly, or maybe not more importantly, I've met, I met actually all three people on this call and most of my friends and coworkers. Because of that blog post?

Because of that blog post. I met Neville because of that blog post. Neville, the best man in my wedding, I met because of that. Good for you. So what you're describing of what you would do and how basically you described like hosting events, which is similar in a same vein as posting content. I did the same thing and it made me millions of dollars and I met all my best friends that way. Awesome. I mean, I think the only other thing that I was doing at the time that I think everyone should do. So number one, build your brand in some way. Even if you're not trying to be a personal brand, I think practicing writing.

is a skill you can use in sales, you can use in development, you can use in design, you can use it almost literally forever. I think the connections very valuable. Literally probably the reason I'm a multi-millionaire is because I've been able to meet and help people and connect people, connecting and meeting. But the third thing was that I was starting a lot of businesses. And I think what's beautiful is especially earlier in your life, your cost of living is so damn low. And my cost of living is still damn low because I haven't grown up in some ways and I'm maturing in certain ways, that it's so low that you should take a lot of risk very early on in trying a lot of things out. So when I was working at Intel, I was doing this college consulting.

I did a thing called NinjaCard.com. I was putting on these conferences that I charged for. And then I was working at Mint. I started doing the Facebook apps. Like I did all these games and I started making a lot of money. And I was working at morning. I was working on weekends. I was working at lunch.

I was working at nights. I kept going. And I kept trying a lot of different. And eventually, after probably two and a half, three years, Gojin, 04. And three years later, my side hustle finally became my main hustle. Did any of those, like I have, we actually have a good friend, Encore. I don't know if you know him, Sean, but me and Noah do, who did the same thing about the online, he did like the Facebook apps and Facebook games. And when I think of that shit, I'm like, dude, that is just some scammie get rich quick shit.

Is that an accurate assessment of what those were? because I was a little bit, I was too young to be doing that shit in 2010 or whenever it became popular, or I wasn't interested in the internet. Is that an accurate assessment of what those were? I think what's interesting is like, how do you become a part? I think what's more interesting about the Facebook games besides whatever people spam or not spam is like, how do you be around the title waves? So I think where I've been very fortunate and lucky is that in my career, either I'm an ambulance chaser or I'm like a visionary or I'm maybe a little bit of both. where like I was in the Facebook game world, I was in personal finance world, I was in social networking world, I was in SaaS world with sumo, I was in e-commerce world with, you know, some of a Shopify.

And lately I'm back in content world. And I think what's been the beautiful part about that, you know, in an app sumo, I've been in the software world, which has been amazing. I think the amazing part about that is that it's opened up a world where my life is more rich, not rich even monetarily, just like rich, like fulfilling because of all these really cool people I've gotten to connect with. Like I got to meet this guy Nick Nimman. And I'm going to talk with him on Friday about videos. And then I've got to meet this guy, Javier Mercedes, who lives in Austin, who came over and showed me how lighting, like, okay, look, let's switch lighting here. Let's switch lighting here.

And I think what's amazing is try to figure out which category is going to either be big or which category you're interested in and then how to interject yourself in that conversation. So you're like, well, no, I'm not a developer. I don't have any commerce products to start. Guess what? Start a fucking YouTube channel reviewing those products or start an Instagram account where each day you just post, hey, here's my favorite e-commerce product today, here's why. Or start a newsletter on sunfox.com. Like, hey, here's

my weekly e-commerce product of the week and email that company saying, hey, I just promoted you this week. One of the easiest things that anyone, especially early on, can do is flatter people. Legitimately, don't just bullshit, because it's obvious. But just flatter. Hey, I love your stuff. That's an easy way to open the door and then do what you can to start

helping people. And so I think I've been lucky and intentional about what am I curious about and what's becoming more popular and how can I connect with people that are inspiring me. I would also say, like, Sam, I wouldn't call those that, that Facebook game era because there's a whole bunch of other friends that we have that started or like kind of caught their first big wave on when Facebook platform opened up.

Like the very first episode of this podcast, Suli, that's how he caught his big wave was he made a Facebook app called superlatives. And it was about, you know, saying which of your friends is most likely to end up in jail or, you know, stuff, goofy stuff like that. Or, you know, I know some of the Lollaps guys listen to this. and they were, you know, they were, you know, the fastest growing company in the world at the time probably. Like, you know, oh my God, you know, you launch a product and get to 10 million users in a day. And that just breaks your mental model of the world.

And so I think two things. A, you're right that the people who go there were the type of people that sniffed out interesting spaces before they're proven out. So if you're that type of person, you're going to end up in a lot of those types of situations. The second is you get this crash course on hypergrowth and marketing in a way. that's like you can't learn like this guy who the guy who sold tbh to facebook recently um oh yeah yeah yeah tweeted this thing out yesterday that was like it was good first time social app founder is like oh we're going to build a platform for intellectual conversations it's like you know i get 23 users and 5% retention and then he's like by the 50 year that same founder's like all right

let's just have people vote on who's hot and it's like result 10 million users 40% retention it's Like, you know, it's very true. It's like, the only way to really ever get good is by putting yourself out there. So when you're saying go start a YouTube channel or somebody goes and has to build a Facebook app and you see that the apps that grow are the ones that tap into people's core needs. Like they want to know about their friends. They want to take quizzes about themselves and learn, you know, goofy personality quizzes. And it's the person on the sidelines who's like, oh, all that stuff's dumb.

And what they're missing is that they don't sort of figure out, you know, at the end of the that you get rewarded for giving people what they want, not what you want people to want. And then the second thing is that if you really want to get good at anything, you've got to be in like the eye of the storm. And these new platforms or these areas where there's a lot of growth, a lot of action happening, that's where you sharpen your skills.

So, you know, you might not have ever made money off the Facebook games, right? Like you got a bunch of group users and may not have ever lasted. Well, you might have made money. I think the question is if you, I think you need to pick,

are you trying to make money? You're trying to learn. Because I think sometimes when you're young, you're like, well, I want to make money off this person. It's like, well, Maybe there's a lot more long-term dividends by just trying to focus on what you can learn. But also, wouldn't you say, like, I've seen this in my life, sounds like you were in the same, where it's when you're trying to make money that you end up learning because you're trying to do something hard and you learn the hard way, like what actually works and what doesn't.

Versus if you just say, I want to learn, a lot of times people take a very sort of passive or intellectual approach to it. Now, that's different than saying, I want to make money so I take this job at Intel that pays me a guaranteed six figures or whatever it is. you may not learn the most doing that path because you're not actually challenging yourself in the same way. But I think the two things I would highlight there is that I think there's passion or interest or curiosity and then I think there's opportunity. And I think I've chased opportunities to make money, which have been fleeting. They've been profitable, but fleeting. And I think when you're in your 20s, you should do those. Frankly, you should just do the things that are like hot and exciting if you think you want to make money.

And then in your 30s, you start reflecting more like, wow, mortality is real. what's really important. And I think you'll come back to finding how do I work on problems and things that I want created in my own world. And for you, that's what? That's helping people sort of overcome their fears to start businesses. Is that the, or is it one step removed from that? No, it's exactly that.

It's like I want to be on the ground level helping people overcome fears, start businesses and marketing in businesses. I love seeing the underdog succeed. I love seeing like this guy, Ali Abdul is a popular YouTuber. Or I love seeing companies like MeatFox who got promoted on App Sumo and now they have a business around it or a phone web. is a popular one today for doing phone calls. That guy, Ali, he's great.

He's, I think he listens to this podcast, but he's a doctor, right? He's a doctor YouTuber, or is that? Yeah, he's so, I mean, he's so impressive. He's, like, you know, people are like, I don't have enough time. This guy's a full-time professional doctor making three high-quality YouTube videos every week. And he engages in an audience. And he's put, you know, he's just very genuine. I really enjoy.

Can you spell his name? A-L-I-A-B-D-A-A-L. You know, and I think it's interesting is that you have to think about, on the reverse of that, How do you become someone that people want to meet? How do you make things or do things that others want to connect with? And I think we're like, oh, I'll just do stuff and hope it happens. This guy looks amazing. I just love the, like, I just did a quick Google.

Dude's dope. Bad ass. Dude is just dope. I love this guy. He's just like, I found him because he blogged like, hey, here's some cool shit I found this week and our podcast was in it. And so I was like, okay, who's this guy who's giving us a shout? And then I checked out his YouTube channel.

And I was like, well, this guy's amazing. Well, I think that's something that even in my news that are every week now, we have a section where we promote other people. I think the more that you can go and this is one of those things that's like stupid obvious, but no one does it. It's like, go help a bunch of other people. And there's a good chance that you'll be able to connect and get a lot of things you want. Like the quote that I heard yesterday that was like really powerful to me. It was like your rewards in life will be exact proportion to your contribution. That's interesting.

I don't know if it's true though, because I feel like you can definitely make money by like some bullshit Facebook. app you know what I mean but I definitely think it's the way to live by but can can I bring something up within the last three minutes so four weeks ago or three weeks ago Sean told me about a book called happy body um and I told I was with Neville and Noah last week or two weeks ago and I was like yeah I Sean told me about this book I'm going to buy it and Neville was like oh I have it uh upstairs let me go grab it for you he gave it to me then he gave it and then Noah was like wait what's his book and I think he ended up buying it. I've been doing those exercises in that book.

I feel great. Have you guys been doing that? I just got the book yesterday, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, my God. Basically, what I'm realizing is I, on this podcast, said I had scoliosis, and I had like 30 or 40 people reach out to me, say they also have scoliosis. And so then I started doing this book to help fix it. It's been awesome.

My back feels so much better. Does your back feel better, Sean? I never had back pain, so it's not my, I wasn't doing it for that. I just, like, I read the philosophy and I was like, oh, I vibe with this. Like, this makes sense to me. I don't feel like I'm being sold to. I think this, this seems like one of those, like, fundamental truths about the way your body works and how you should, like, sort of tune it.

And so I started to like it. But I haven't been, like, doing all of those. Actually, I've been swimming a bunch, but, like, I haven't been doing those exercises in there. But, yeah, if you're back hurts, give it a shot. You know, like back pain is one of those like, you know, quality of life ruiners if you have it. And so, you know, you just got to try fucking everything if you have back pain. Well, Noah was talking about getting older and trying to feel younger. And before this podcast, he took a shirt off and showed me his body.

That's what we do. That's what real friends do. But, golly, this thing has totally made a difference. We aren't getting, I'm not getting paid to say this, but that shit's awesome. All right. So, Noah, let's ask you then. What has been the best either decision, purchase? change that has lifted your quality of life on a day-to-day basis that you've done,

you know, that comes to mind, recent memory? I think there's probably about, I'll say three, and then I got to jump off. So number one, buying my Tesla. I think it's not about the Tesla, but I think it's about, I think we're conditioned that like materialism is evil. And I think it's more about, is there ways that we could use money to make our lives better? So I think that's been really powerful for me to, like, wow, really enjoy something

versus getting the cheaper, like, I like miatas. I have a me out in the backyard. But it's like nice to have something amazing. And I wonder what else in my life going to have that would be amazing. And that I can also be amazing. Because I think it's something to say about what does your stuff say about you? The second thing I would think about is journaling. Right?

So I've been using Bear app. I think one of the, you guys asked for three business opportunities. One of them is technology advisor. There's so much new tech, new cameras, new everything. Like I think you can go make a lot of money coaching people and teaching them. How do you spell bear? bare app. Bear.

Or Bear app notes. I really enjoyed. I literally journal five days a week. And it's been really helpful to understand myself better and learn my interests and motivations and fears and all this stuff. And then those two have definitely been powerful. I'm trying to think of the third thing that's really... And I think the third thing that for me has really changed my life is observing where I'm living and how much my space affects my energy. So I've been renting Airbnbs and I'm going to be moving because I'm like, you know, there's something there about your space and how much it can impact you've.

professionally and personally. Guys, I got to go. I love you guys. Ab sumo.com. Thank you. Sean, let's stay on. But Noah, uh, let's come back again and actually talk about some business stuff because this is awesome. And I also want to do the other thing. Thank you. Have a good day. All right. You too. See you. Thanks, Sean. Bye. You want to talk about anything Noah said, Sean? Uh, you know, a lot of it was really relevant to me because I think the things he's talking about, like the thing he spent like, I don't know, 15 years doing now is building up this audience, this. this like putting out great content that's going to help people and like distills down his wisdom.

Like, okay, if I learn something, the act of me trying to teach it to somebody else will help me learn it better. I think that's the vibe I get from him. That's what I want to do. That's what I find most enjoyable in my life anyways. So personally, I thought that stuff was interesting. If you're not trying to be a content creator, I don't know how useful that part will be for people. But honestly, these are pretty universal, like, just like tactics to get shit done and get shit out there. and like be an action person.

And so, yeah, I like, I like his message around being an action person. I wish we had gone into ideas because I think he is a kind of an idea starter, like he said. I'll actually bring up something that he mentioned that is not related to any of this help-help stuff, which I enjoy. But so he talked about his space and buying a nice car. So I think I just spent three weeks in living in Austin. I think I'm going to give up my place in San Francisco. go and I'm going to spend four to eight weeks in different cities and see what happens. So I'm going to buy a car.

I don't know what type of car I should buy, but I'm going to buy a nice car and I'm going to drive all over the country. Yeah, that's great. I'm all for it. I want to ask your opinion on that. But also, to the listeners, if you want to rent my apartment, I'll give it to you for six months. It's 4K a month. I live in Glen Park.

It's a lovely neighborhood. And it's furnished. And I have a gym here, a home gym, a really nice one. So message me on Twitter if you want to rent it. Otherwise, I'm going to give it up and I don't want to. Dude, you should charge a premium. This is sleep in Sampar's bed for 8K a month, actually. You know, get that good, good juju.

Yeah, no, there is no pre-maybe. Maybe I should, fuck. I just blew my. Yeah. He's willing to accept four guys. He's willing to accept four. I just blew my. No, I wasn't going to make money on it.

I just, you just cover the expenses. I Austin's amazing more people should I don't know what sometimes I'm like it's way better there so a couple years ago I made a decision to do something similar where I was like I was sitting in San Francisco and I was like why am I just here all the time like life is so big the world is so big and so I told my girlfriend at the time and I was like let's go you know now my wife but at the time we were just dating I think and I was like let's go live in South America for the next six weeks and like I'll just work from there but like let's just go pick a cool city that we are not going to live in long term I don't want to move but I want to go live there and I was like wait a minute

I can live there without moving and the way that San Francisco works is like an arbitrage where you can Airbnb your house or your apartment and you could make more you could literally live for free somewhere else in the world you know get a free vacation so that's what I did it went for five or six weeks we lived in Buenos Aires Argentina and and we just lived there like a local not like Or not exactly like a local, kind of like an expat, but it was better than, it wasn't a vacation. It wasn't like go, sightsee, take a bunch of photos and leave after five days. It was like, okay, we're going to live here.

Like, what's the coffee shop we should go to? How do we get groceries? And like that was just a way better experience. I was like, I'm going to do this every year. But then one year was like, oh, we're getting married. And then I had a kid. And now I don't know when I'm going to do it. So, wait, but you did do it.

I did do it for one year. And I planned to do it again. this year now that my child is a little bit older, I think we can go do it now because she's almost a year old. So I'll do it again. So my logic is I'm only going to go to places I can drive to for two reasons. One,

Corona and two, my dog, who I consider part of my family, he's old and I would not want to leave him behind. And I don't know if you can bring a dog. You can probably bring a dog to some European countries, but in a lot of places

they have like a three-week quarantine thing. You could get to Canada. You could get to Mexico. That's cool. Well, so I would move to Mexico City in a heartbeat. Have you been there? I've never been, but everybody who I know says the same thing. It's like amazing.

It's amazing. Like I remember I was there when Trump was just getting elected and he was talking about the wall. And I was in like a hipser neighborhood and I asked my barber. I go, what do you think about this Trump guy talking about this wall? He goes, I don't care about what he says. Like I want, he goes, yeah, build the wall. That will keep you guys from coming in. This is amazing here.

We don't try to go to America. And I was like, oh, man, you've just broken all these stupid stereotypes of head in my head. Thank you. And so, yeah, they're going to need a wall to keep me out of Mexico City because that place is lovely. So I would totally want to live there. The Mexicans were awesome people. I love the neighborhoods. But Corona. I'm nervous about Corona at the moment.

Yeah, Corona. And before this, it was what's it called Zika, which like people didn't really care about, but Zika is scary as shit, especially if you're like, we were going to have a kid. we knew that and Zika like basically you can become a carrier for a year or so and pass it to your baby so that was like a scary thing that's what that killed it one year and now Corona it's like I don't know when I'm going to do it but I'm going to do it I think I'm going to do Canada because I trust the Canadians around Corona where Vancouver Vancouver somewhere remote who knows because like but like why would you do remote Canada when it's like the same shit it's like Montana isn't it I also don't I also would go to Montana man Montana school too but uh you know I don't

I don't mind that. That's a change of pace. What car should I buy? Should I do this in a F-150 truck? Should I do this in a Subaru that I, like, put off-road tires on? What should I buy? I thought about a Tesla. Well, that doesn't come out until 2021, and I want to leave in August.

You could do, you could do that as a Tesla SUV, or you could do the F-150. I think that would be hilarious, although that's kind of cramped and not the most ideal. Why not do an RV? No, an F-150 is four-door. You can get a four-door. but a Tesla would be fucking horrible, wouldn't it, for a 3,000 mile trip? Why? Because like, wouldn't you have to pull over every 300 miles for an hour?

The superchargers are pretty fast, and it goes like, I think the new ones or whatever go, like 600 miles or something crazy. It's interesting. Maybe I would do that. Yeah, definitely do it in something that is not your usual. Well, that's what Noah said that inspired me. I was like, I'm not going to penny pitch. I'm going to buy the nice shit that I want. Yeah, you're just waiting for, you're just waiting for somebody to be like, you know what's cool?

Buying cool shit. That's right. That resonated with me too. I'm always doing like penny pitching shit. So I need to step that up. You want to go over anything else? I have a bunch of ideas that I added to the thing, but I feel like we should just do like an episode about it, like a full episode. episode about those ideas. So I think we should keep this one kind of Noah and then yeah, I have a

bunch, but it would be like an hour. Okay, I have a bunch too. They range from interactive email to I have a bunch of ideas around privacy stuff that fascinate me a ton and Corona stuff. Someone's got to create the organic label, but for like, is your restaurant Corona clean? Oh yeah, yeah. I like the, it's like the, you know, the health score, but like this time specifically branded around corona hygiene. Yeah, so that's what I'm going to bring up. What are you going to bring up? Okay, I'm just going to read you some of my quick notes that I had here. One is called Scott Galloway being super wrong. Another one is... I know exactly where you're going with that and I'm very interested. Another one is scams that I found interesting. And I have four examples of scams that I found interesting.

Another one is WikiLeaks for creeps because Chris Dili is. turned out to be a creep. And then another one is how the 37 signals guys are marketing their new thing, hey.com. I think it's pretty interesting how they're going about that. And then I have a bunch of startup ideas that are around, one is around baseball cards, one's around, yeah, I got a bunch of ideas. So we got a lot to come.

Great. I am interested in all those, particularly the Scott Galloway one and the hay.com thing, which I think is actually going to be a huge business. I just downloaded it. Have you used it? No. All right. I'll tell you,

if you didn't like Superhuman, I may not like this either, but I just downloaded. Thumbs up or thumbs down? I'm like 10 minutes into the onboarding, but I'm also like thumbs down so far, but I really like those guys. So I'm like,

just let me try it actually. I wouldn't say I've given it a fair shake yet, but the onboarding so far, I'm not sold. I'm in the same boat, but I understand why many people will like it. Right. Okay, we should.

We should jet here. Leave us for review. Tell us what you think. Tweet at us, whatever. We'll talk you all soon.