My First Million - Business as a sport, Surge AI, and Waymo vs. Robotaxi

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Want to scale your startup? Get 700 prompts for your side hustle: https://clickhubspot.com/fpg Episode 720: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) talk about how Surge built a $1B business in 5 years and the second-order effects of self-driving cars. — Show Notes: (0:00) Best idea of the month (6:00) Business as a sport (10:57) The inner game of tennis (14:21) Shaan writes a letter to himself (19:15) Patron View (27:42) Surge (35:00) Handshake (39:47) Waymo vs Robotaxi (50:30) Elon replies to Shaan's tweet (53:13) Shaan gets in a fight with his moms doctor (1:02:50) Sam wears overalls — Links: • The Inner Game of Tennis - https://tinyurl.com/mphz9zkr • Patron View - https://patronview.com/ • Museum Hack - https://museumhack.com/ • Surge AI - https://www.surgehq.ai/ • Handshake - https://joinhandshake.com/ • Gemini - https://gemini.google.com/ • Grok - https://grok.com/ — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com • Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents. • Mercury - Need a bank for your company? Go check out Mercury (mercury.com). Shaan uses it for all of his companies! Mercury is a financial technology company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N.A., and Evolve Bank & Trust, Members FDIC — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

Dude, Manifest is out. There's a new word. What? Generative. Wait, is high agency? Are we selling high agency? We're selling high agency at the top right now. We're spacking high agency.

It's gone. Taking that cash. I'm plowing it into generative. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. On a road, let's travel, never looking back. All right.

What I miss? How was the week? Week was good. What did we do? We had Chris Corner. That episode's popped off. It's over 100K on YouTube, so that's going well. And, dude, there were so many replies to one idea that was in that episode.

I don't know if you listened to the episode. The golfing one? The golfing one. Dude, I got literally hundreds of replies of people who are like, I could do this right here in my hometown. People are studying PowerPoint decks. People are doing drive-by, sending me videos of the lake where they think they could do it. They're reaching out cold. it's very intense.

How many people have replied to this and now we're going to it. And what was the idea? Was it about betting as to where you could hit it? No, so basically on the way, there's a place in New Zealand on the way to the golf course, just kind of side of the road, there's a road that's driving by a body of water. And if you just stop on the side of the road,

there's this thing called like whatever, the hole in one challenge, and you buy a bucket of balls and you're going to try to hit this hole in one of this little golf hole that's floating out, you know, 100, 100 yards. away in the water. If you hit, if you get it, you get 10 grand. And so it's just like a fun thing for you to do with your buddies like on the way or two or from a golf course. And he was talking about like,

you know, sort of napkin mathing what he thinks it's making based off of the available information. He's like, I think this thing does like 300 to 500K, you know, in revenue. And now the costs are pretty marginal. It's like person standing there with an iPad. There's a scuba diver that goes in once a week and fishes out the balls. Like that's it. And so people. People got, we basically said, hey, I think this idea could work at more places than just this random roadside thing in New Zealand. Let's bring this to life. And who wants to do this? And a lot of people have come out.

And so we're going to make it an MFM project. We're going to see what we can do with this. So like all the comments were like, this is what I've been missing with MFM because like we started a lot with that. And then like our interests have grown. And so the content has grown to be or evolved to be a little bit different sometimes. and one critique is like, what is this, my first billion? Because we talk about like, you know, bigger ideas. And I was thinking, I, you know, we've become acquaintances with Joe Lonsdale,

who because of this podcast, who's worth, I don't know, billions, some amount of billions. And I was with him recently. By the way, if you need to pick that up, let me know. If you need to pick up that name drop, did I drop that's up here? Did I drop that name drop somewhere? No, but he was telling me like, oh, man, or I was with him when I got my Twitter check. Like, you know how you get like Twitter money now? Like you're like, for example, for some reason, my Twitter was $1,000 last payment.

And like the month before, it was like $600. And I was like, man, this is crazy. I just got paid $600 for tweeting, which is insane. He's like, yeah, I got like $400. And he was joking about how it feels just as exciting every once in a while to get like a $400 thing. that it does, however much money he's created in his lifetime. And I was wondering, do you feel like when you're talking about these things? Like, you just lit up when you talked about $300,000, when that may or may not, I mean, I don't think so. That's not going to really move the needle

for you in your life. But it's kind of exciting, isn't it? Yeah, not because of the money. It's just, I think it's awesome. I think the idea, the idea itself is fun. Making it happen sounds like it's going to be fun you know actually I was just watching an interview with a guy who the NBA finals just ended they had game seven the Thunder 1 and there was this interview with one of the guys

so they asked J-Dub they're like you know would you look back on this year what is the one what are you going to remember what were the high points and he goes he's like it's weird dude he's like I remember if you think if I think about this year he's like I remember being chat we would go to our hotel room we would do film sessions but back when he was coming

that back from injury to get it going or like these team dinners that we were having. He's like, I couldn't even tell. He's like, I don't even remember what happened last series. Like, I don't remember in the recent games what happened. But those kind of like, those inputs on the journey are like just like are so vivid to me. And this has been a very common thing where if you talk to pro players after their career is done and you're like, what do you miss the most? And you expect them to be like the big pressure moments, that those big games. And of course, they do like those.

but the thing they talk about always is the team bus rides, the locker room, it's all of the like camaraderie stuff that happens along the way. It's like the kind of the buildup is the stuff that they miss the most. And I think there's that for entrepreneurship too. I think there's that that's a huge amount of the fun of it. And it's what you get excited about. You need the number to sort of justify it. The number gives you some air cover for why you're acting like a little kid.

You're so excited about something. the numbers help because why are you taking this silly thing so seriously? But I think we would probably all do it without the numbers as well or if the numbers were half as much or whatever. Yeah, and I noticed the best, the people who love MFFM the most and the guests who you and I love the most are folks who, you know, I hung out with a friend of mine and she was like, because she was from a bad neighborhood. Now she's rich. She's like, you know, I'm so good at going really high and going really low. I was like, what's that mean? She's like, I can hang out with like my homies from where I go.

grew up and we could just like shoot the shit and kind of be a little like hood ratty or I can go hang out with a billionaire and I could I love that too I can I have so much joy doing that as well and I can blend in and get along with everyone and I think that's like that's like what the pot is is like you like talking about these smaller things as well as the big things and it's the same type of person who loves both yeah exactly also do you think about business as like a sport because that's more and more become my mental model is the way that because I you meet people and a lot of people we know have now become successful, but they're still doing it.

And obviously, for many of them, I call it, they've already made the last dollar they'll ever spend, right? Let's say you make $30 million. At that point, you've already earned the last dollar you'll ever need to spend, especially once you take into account that that $30 million could just sit in a, whether it's a simple interest-bearing account or the S-SP 500, and it'll double every seven years. So 30 becomes 60, 60 becomes 120, 120 becomes 240.

And that just all happened over the course of, you know, something like 25 years. And so you don't need to go earn the next dollar, but why do they anyways? And part of it is I think it feels good to be good at something. And if you're good at something, it's hard to stop doing it because the feedback loop of being good at something is strong. But I think in that same way, if you think about business not as a mechanism to make money, but as a sport, as a sport you play, then it's like, oh, of course. Just because you're great at tennis and you won a tournament

doesn't mean you'll stop playing tennis. Why would you do that? That's your sport. You love to play the sport. You'll basically play the sport until your body breaks down and doesn't let you play the sport anymore. And it feels good to manifest.

It feels good to have an idea and to see it into reality. And it's really fun flexing that muscle. Dude, manifest is out. There's a new word. What? Generative. Generative?

What does that mean? This is this happened a few times to me now. Wait, is high agency? Are we selling high agency? We're selling high agency at the top right now. we're spacking high agency it's gone taking that cash and we're plowing it into generative I was on a podcast and I was like at the end I was like how was that

and you could tell me the truth because I do podcast all the time with guests I know it's sometimes hit or miss like give me the from one podcaster to another what was that like for you and he's like it was great because you're extremely generative he goes what and he goes it was also hard because you're extremely generative like what's that mean he goes I'll say two things Like I'll give you one topic, but you can almost like bloom that or expand that into like a story, a framework, a this, a related idea, a simple example. You just generated all that content off the cuff right away.

And he goes, you know, biology is like that. Bology is extremely generative. You give him one thing and he's able to like take it from like the origin of man to, you know, to 100 years in the future. And he could connect all those dots. So I heard it once. And I was like, okay, that's cool. I don't know if I just got insulted or complimented of being called generative. but I'll take it.

And then James Currier said the same thing. He goes, he's like, he's like, the reason we get along is because we're both extremely generative. He's like, we like, we like being around generative people. And he's like, you know, why do we admire Elon? It's not because he's rich. It was because he's the most generative of all of us, right? And he's the least fearful.

And that's why he's able to be more generative. He's like, he literally generates businesses, like the boring company in Neurlink and SpaceX and Tesla. He's like, he's generating kids. He's generating ideas. He generates a president. He's just doing. so much and that's admirable to somebody who is generative. And so I started using that little

lens. I started looking at people being like, how generative is this person? Meaning, if you would give them an inch, could they take a mile? And what is their overall level of output in their life? You know, like, how generative are they with like, for example, James Currier? It's not just businesses he's generated. He, you know, at one point he also started a church in San Francisco. He started a new religion. And, you know, then he created this like sort of incubator, this fun. Then he created a podcast. He's just constantly, creating things because it's extremely generative. And whether it's with his kids' life or it's his business life or whatever.

So I started to realize, oh, yeah, I'm really attracted to that. I like people who are like that. And I want to be like that. And figure out a way to make that work is a fun challenge. It's a generative is the new word. Have you ever heard of this book called The Inner Game of Tennis? I've heard of it, but I've never read it. Is it good?

Yeah. Who's the pro? Who's it about? Okay. So the Inner Game of Tennis, I random. discovered it because I was at the airport and I was just looking for a book to read on my Kindle and I wanted something short and I for some reason. You're like I'm in a bookstore. We're looking for books to download separately. No, like I don't remember what I was just like I think like I was on Amazon on my phone and like a sports psychology book came up and I was like, that's intriguing.

What are what's like the top sports psychology book there is or something like that? And I randomly came across the inner game of tennis. It's about it's written by a guy named Timothy Galway. and it's one of these books that it's about life and it just uses tennis as the analogy. And the premise of the book is that you have two selves. Self one is your person. So like when you say like when you're playing tennis and you hit, you do a bad hit, you go, why do I suck so much? Or like that is self one, the critical self.

And then self two is like your animalistic self who doesn't think too much and it's just your body. and that learns by observing. And it's all about how to be generative and by ignoring self-1 and letting self-2 do all the work. And it gives you all of these tips and tricks on how to listen to self-to. And this sounds very woo-woo. And it is a little bit woo-woo.

But the book was written in the 1970s, and the coach of the Seahawks writes the forward. What's his name Pete Carroll? Pete Carroll, yeah. And like every new edition, they still are like, they're still releasing new editions where all these like who's who of leaders are writing about it. And I think I didn't realize it, but after I started reading it, I was like, oh, wait,

Tim Ferriss talked about this book. It's one of his favorite books of all time. And I've been reading it a whole lot. And it applies very much to business. I think it's only 150 page book. I've been reading, I'm almost done. I read it in like two days. It's very similar or very applicable to business, which is what you said about Elon of

he's not fearful and things like that. This book actually gives you like a set of frameworks and a way to communicate yourself in order to not be fearful when you are coming up with new ideas. is incredibly fascinating. Dude, this is awesome. I love this type of book. It says, The Intergame of Tennis,

the classic guide to peak performance, introduction by Bill Gates and a forward by Pete Carroll. Isn't that crazy? I didn't know that that. I don't have the Bill Gates one, so I didn't know that. So he wrote the introduction.

That's wild. And so have you used any of this? Or have you found a way to kind of apply any of these yet? Well, so like a very simple example is like for lifting weights or for going for a run. When you lift weights,

you're like, okay, I have to lift this weight for three times. And it's the heaviest weight that I've ever done. So I'm really scared. You don't listen to that at all. And instead, you just get under it and you go, I'm going to let self too do all the work. I'm going to trust self too. And if I fail, I will not be judgmental. I'm not going to say you suck. Instead, I'll say, you know, your knee moved in a strange way. So I'm just going to objectively acknowledge what's happening. And then I put and then I when I want to lift three times, I get it up on me and I just observe the weight on me. And I only, I'm just observe the weight on me. And I only. And I only, only go for one rep and I'd be like, all right, how does that feel? Self-2? Let's just do the second rep. So I basically am talking to myself sort of like an objective machine, not an emotional person. So the whole, I'm fearful, I'm fearful, I'm fearful, you just set that aside and you go, it's self-two time. There is no room for that. It is only room for objectiveness. All right, I did something similar to this in this vein that I didn't even plan to talk about, but I'll just tell you this because I think it's kind of similar. So one thing I noticed is any time I go into a project, you know, I obviously have a lot of excitement and have a lot of hope at the

beginning, correct? That's obvious. And then the second obvious thing is that I'm going to hit some sort of obstacles, walls, plateaus, something that I don't want to happen is for sure going to happen. I've never once experienced a project that I just simply started. Everything went as planned and it had a happy ending. Like this literally just never happened for me to expect that to happen would honestly be a little bit foolish. It's like, why would I think that that was the case? Yet, at the same time, as soon as I hit those obstacles on those walls, I'm like, shit. Like, I wish this didn't happen. I don't want this to happen. Why is this happening? And I waste all this energy on something that was inevitable. It's like, oh my God, I can't believe these gumbas are walking at me. It's like,

dude, that's the game. Like, what do you mean? Like, you wanted to play this game without anybody like trying to bite you? I don't understand what you thought this was going to be. And so recently I was doing a project and last week I wrote out a thing in advance I'm just going to kind of read you this. So I basically wrote like a simple letter to self for like two months down the road.

And by the way, three months down the road. According to Tim, according to the Intergame of Tennis, when you have that feeling, you don't, you do not judge it as positive or negative. You say now this is a challenge. Okay. Noted. And then you just keep going. Do you know what I mean? There is no why

like this is horrible. This is awful. Why? me. There are no emotions. You do not judge. You think you don't judge the emotion you're feeling. You don't judge yourself for feeling it or you don't judge the thing. Both. So you only objectively acknowledge it. So you say like, so the ball was out. Okay. Right. Noted. The ball was hit too hard. And then you're, you trust self too to adjust. But you don't, you know what I'm saying? You do not acknowledge or judge it as I hate this. I suck. This is bad. It's just. the ball was out. So I'm just going to give you a little sense of how I wrote this.

So I was like, I was like, hey, it's me from the future. I'm writing this to you three months from now. First, congrats, the thing you did so good. Turned out amazing. I'm really proud of you slash me. And I said, this is a letter that is guiding you to some of the entirely predictable upcoming road bumps that are headed your way. Not only is it predictable that there will be road bumps.

I can probably tell you right now what they're going to be. Eric, because like, that's true. So for example, I was thinking about this isn't what I was doing, but just to make it a simple example. Let's say you're trying to hire ahead of sales. There's some entirely predict, like, you know you'll be able to do it, but there's some entirely predictable road bumps, which is like, you know, you're probably going to procrastinate starting it a little bit, because it's the idea of finding that perfect person's a little bit hard, and you might put it off a little bit. Then you'll talk to some candidates who are disappointing. You may even run into a candidate

who's really great, but the offer doesn't work out. Maybe they don't take it. Maybe it's not the right time in their life, et cetera, et cetera. So you could basically, you can basically. So you can basically up front tell yourself, yeah, these four obstacles are probably going to be here. I've played this level of the game before, or I could just see what's coming. And so when they come, it takes the emotional edge off of it because it's like, yeah, I know. I don't feel betrayed by this. I don't feel surprised by this. Like I knew you were coming up.

You just say hello to it. Here you are. I thought I'd be seeing you soon. And I also had already kind of thought about like what I would do to get around that before it hits me. And I'm in like an emotional state. So it's like, yeah, I'm probably going to meet a bunch of people who are kind of disappointing and it'll probably feel in the moment like, God, am I ever going to find somebody great? But of course, I will. I only need one. And it's a numbers game. And I should probably just expect

that I'm going to talk to about, you know, 30 to 40 people. And that 25 of those people are going to be truly just a waste of time, you know, in terms of the interview. But that's okay. That's so that's part of the process. And you tell yourself that up front. And then as it's happening, you're like, yeah, well, I already, I already addressed this. I don't need to like react to it again. Because I already kind of pre-reacted to the whole thing. And what is this project that you're doing like big or like do you recommend doing this for a small thing or only a big thing? I don't know. This is my first time actually doing like the corny step of like writing it out to myself.

I'm like, dear Sean. Yeah. And it's like P.S. You're pretty fucking lame for write this. Yeah, exactly. It's like, all right. That's three pages now. This was cool when it was a paragraph.

I think it was very helpful. I will do it again. I will do it again. I mean, I don't know how much this actually. Like it doesn't, it sort of blunts the pain, but the pain's still there. You know what I mean? It's like when you get a shot at the doctor, it's like, if you really are looking at it and hyper fixated on it and you start hyperventilating about it, yeah, it's kind of a

worse experience. If you look away, you might still feel a little prick, but, you know, you took the edge off of it. I think that's what this is done for me. All right. So we're talking about like big and small. Do you want me to tell you about a small thing and a big idea that are, to me, are equally fascinating?

Okay. Go to patron view. dot com. So I was InVue. Okay. Yeah. So I was with Nick Gray this weekend. So I did this amazing, or we did this amazing vacation where my friend David owns a home in Utah and about eight of us, or maybe six of us, plus our spouses and our kids all went and hung out. And it was amazing. And Nick was there. And I was looking at his computer. And I said, Nick, what are you doing? He goes, let me tell

you. And it was very fascinating. And so it's called patron view. Patronview.com. And so Nick used to own this website or sorry, own this service called Museum Hack, where it was kind of amazing that it existed, but you would pay $100 and Nick or one of his tour guides would take you to the Met and give you a sort of guerrilla tour of the museum. And it was amazing. And so that's where he got really into museums. And he became buddies somehow or somehow got in with the guys who do the fundraising. And because he's a business. person, he was like, oh, wow, it's so fascinating that one person is donating a million dollars, $10 million, $20 million, $20 million to these museums, and they do it every year into tons of different museums. That's really amazing. And so recently, with a mutual buddy, Stets and Blake, they built this website where it's pretty amazing, where all he did was if you go to the Met or one of a dozen or hundreds of other museums, they, every year they have to put out a PDF that explains who donated money and how much money that person donated.

And so he's aggregated all of them, hundreds or maybe even thousands. And he used AI to upload all of them into a database. So if you are fundraising for a museum, I believe, if I had to guess, you're going to be able to pay his service money to find out who the whales are, you know, whatever. And it's crazy that because of AI, he was able to make this. He told me for $2,000. I'm just going to read the About page.

It says, we're a research platform dedicated to documenting cultural philanthropy. I've never actually heard that before, which just shows how much of a nube I am about philanthropy. But that makes sense. So people who donate to things that are about culture. And then it says the data. Our research is pulling from annual reports, 990 tax filings, institutional publications, official documents, and proprietary sources. This lets us present donor information that's never before been displayed. We like to think of it as celebrating philanthropy.

and enabling development departments. This is awesome. It's great, right? Like I was like, Nick, what's your deal here? Like you want to turn this into a business? And he's very, Nick is happy. Like he's not looking for anything. He's like, I don't know, I'm just tinkering.

And in my head as someone who is probably less, you know, content than him, I was like, oh man, like Nick, you could do this, you could do this, you could do this. And that's like how the entire conversation came about. But isn't this pretty cool that he's like building this and this is his hobby? And the fact that AI has made this so easy. Yeah, dude, this is great. I mean, Nick, I've already, you know, really shouted him out on here a ton of times because he's somebody who's made a big impact on me just seeing the way this guy rolls through life. I'm like, he just does things for his own amusement.

He does things on his terms. And I think he does things with high intentionality. And he doesn't see. And he basically resisted the rat race. I think those are the people I admire the most of all is the people that have resisted the rat race. I think he neither chases money nor status. And if you think about the people who are talented and successful in your life, how many do you think actually truly are resisting money and status?

Very few. I know probably two people, him and Jack Smith. Yes, it's pretty crazy. And so you just sort of watch their moves. And then you look at them and you can kind of learn from them. So this is extremely cool. And what's funny about Nick is every two or three years or something like that, he likes to find a publicly traded company that he loves,

and he'll make a big bet on it. And right now, for the past probably four or five years, actually, his bet has been Cloudflare. Like, for some reason, I don't know, he's got all this analysis. He, like, loves it to the point where, like, when he hosted an event, he specifically hosted his event in the Cloudflare event space

because he's, like, so loyal. And he'll wear Cloudflare, T-shirts, whatever. Like, one time there was a race, like a 5K or a marathon through Austin, and he'll, like, hold up a sign that says like Cloudflare rules. Like that's because he wants that. You told me like at his birthday party. He had his birthday party at the Cloudflare office.

And then midway through the birthday party, he ran upstairs and got like to like a product manager like a marketing manager to come down and be like, hey everybody, quick word from Jack from the marketing department. Why don't you just tell some of the great things you got going on at Cloudflare? The guy's like, uh, yeah. So. And before and before he brought that guy in, he goes, I need everyone to treat Jack from Cloudflare like a celebrity. like a celebrity. And so when he walked in, we go,

oh my God, is that Jack? Are you the VP of engineering at Cloudflare? Oh my God. He's here. He's here. The stock is up 400% in the last five years.

So he's done pretty well. He's done well. And if you click the About page, I know for a fact. So he lists an area that says technology. Patron View is built with modern web tech to ensure fast, reliable access to data.

And he only did that so he could list that he uses Cloudflare. I know that's exactly how he thought. But the reason I'm bringing this up is I think that if you're like just starting to build a business or something, you should follow patron view or like go there like go there once a week. And I and I would bet that you're going to see like it evolve like, you know, it's sort of like measuring your kid on the wall. Like you're going to see like the measuring like that's what's going to happen with this. Cool too. I think another another cool thing about this is this fits into like a genre that, you know, personal software.

So or maybe social software. So basically, when the internet came out, before pre-internet, the only people that made media were media companies. You know, you got your media from the New York Times and the Huffington Post, whatever, like newspapers, magazines, TV, et cetera. And then when the internet came out and you got Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and Snapchat, then social media became anything. And everybody became a little broadcaster, right?

Everybody broadcasts a little moments of their life or their content or their interest, whatever it was. And there was this explosion, like, you know, a sort of like one billion X increase in the amount of media that was created because everybody was doing it. And like one clear thing I see that's happening in the world today is that that's now happening with software. So software used to be something that only software companies and software engineers could make. And, you know, there's only like, I don't know, there was less than 100 million roughly software engineers, like proper like professional software engineers in the world. So, you know, 100 million. out of 8 billion people could do the thing.

And, you know, in terms of software companies, there's even less, maybe 100,000 software companies. I don't know, order of magnitude roughly. And now with like Replit and V0 and all these different tools, it's going to be like social media where like, oh, I have, I carry in my pocket a thing that can make media. It's like, I carry my pocket, a thing that can make software. So a guy like Nick, who before this probably couldn't have taken his idea and made it into

an app because he would have to either, A, learn to code or B, go higher, like, expensive programmers to make this happen. Like, he did most of this with AI. And so you see personal software, this like, you know, this personal software category, which was like, didn't exist three years ago or five years ago, is now going to have the same sort of like one billion X, you know, increase just because anybody who's got an idea can now make their idea. Now, today, it's like broken three-fourths of the time.

It doesn't quite work. But, like, every six months, that number goes down by 15%. And so, you know, it's. Within two or three years, that number is going to be like zero, right? It's going to be like, when do you have an idea, you make your app? Everything that I've been making on Replit and Lovable and Cursor, it's basically just like a Figma replacement. Like I'm just like, it's basically just like drawing on paper. Yeah, it's just like a mockup and you still need someone to like actually do the work.

But it, but it's a sick mockup. Yeah. Like it looks. Yeah. So somebody called it minimum viable promise. So instead of minimal viable product, it's like, it's not really a product, but it's like, it kind of has like, you make a promise. So you can see the promise of something. And I think that's what a lot of these tools are able to do today.

Have you heard of a guy named Edwin Chen? Edwin Chen. I mean, there's like, you probably have 10 friends. There's probably 6,000 of them on my Facebook fee. Yeah. I went to school in Beijing. I think I got a few Edwin Chen's in my rolodex. Edwin Chen might be the, like, if you did like a chart of like

richest slash unknown slash youngest person in the world, I think it's going to be Edwin Chen. Is this the guy who's doing surge? So, yeah. So Edwin Chen, in like 2018, 2019, he worked at Facebook. And the story is that he was tasked with, like, making some type of Yelp-style product. And what that meant was he had a list of 50,000 vendors, and he needed to figure out which of those 50,000 was a restaurant and which were a grocery store. And so he went and hired a firm, some company to like parse it out. And it's like manual.

You had to do it manually. Like you had to like hire some firm that had a lot of offshore talents to go through and do it all manually by hand. And he was like, it took us four months or six months, something like that, which basically just meant we had to sit and wait. Like we couldn't do anything until we had that data. So I just had to sit and wait. And so he had this idea where he was going to make a better way to do data labeling.

And the data labeling is important now because that is what a lot of AI companies use, which I had no idea. They did that. And I'll explain how they do that. But basically, when a company like Open AI wants to figure out if a certain reply is unethical. So, like, for example, asking, like, is it okay to, like, hit someone or I don't know, like whatever, like, questions you would ask it, a real person.

And actually not just a real person, but like a really smart person, even someone who, like, does engineering or philosophy needs to spend time going through all the potential answers and to tell Open AI, I think this one sort of fits what you're going for. But anyway, Edwin had this idea of I'm going to create this massive workforce of philosophers, of engineers, of Ivy League grads, who can go through and label all of these answers as good or bad so AI companies can kind of, I can be like their offshore talent. And so he's done this and it started in 2020. Now, Now he has 100,000 people who are in the marketplace working for him as these data labelers. And this company is completely unknown.

So I think it's Surge AI, I believe is the URL. So if you go to Surge AI, it's a landing page with one paragraph that's an amazing paragraph, if you want, you can read it. Do you want to read it? Yeah, I was just reading it. What made people like Hemingway, Kalo, and Von Neumann's so extraordinary, their life. The books they read, the stumbles they had, the reinforcement. every time friends laughed at their jokes and every time they didn't.

It's the people that met, the police explored, and every decision they made along the way. Data does for AI, what life does for humans. It elevates the neural networks that know nothing about the world into the intelligence capable of providing

new art, setting rocket chips to Mars, etc. Our mission is to shape AGI with the richness of human intelligence. Curious way to imagine if it's unexpected brilliance, we wake up every day trying to produce the data that makes this possible. Amazing, right? Romantic.

It's romantic. This guy's amazing. like a giant fleet of overseas data lablers sound like the army from 300. Yeah, it's the best. And the real website, I believe, is data annotation.

Dot Tech. That's the website where the, that's the website where the, where the annotators go to apply. But the way the business, the way, yeah, it's much more traditional. And that one, there's like a brown dude

staring at a laptop with a reflection blurring his eyes. and it says get paid to train AI in your schedule. And so the way the business model works is they have 100,000 of these folks. And they train them on different standards and whatever. And then they've also made software so they can show the basically homework or task to their folks. And a company like OpenAI or Google, whatever, is going to pay Surge millions and millions of dollars. And Surge is then going to take something like 30 or 40 percent of it and give it to the annotator

to do the work. So this company is only five years old. And it was leet that they did one billion dollars in revenue in the last 12 months. And this guy, Edwin Chen, he's only 37 years old, and he owns 100% of the company. They have not taken any outside funding. Now listen, their biggest competitor is a company called Scale. Scale is run by this guy named Alexander Wang. I think Alex, Alex Wang, I think his name is. And it recently sold, for something like 30 times revenue. I believe it they were doing like 800, 900 million in revenue. They just sold half of the company to Facebook.

I think it was for 28 billion or 30 billion. Yeah, 30. Which means this guy, Edwin, who's 37 and has a five-year-old company, presumably is worth something like $30 billion. And you can't find him on Twitter. He has no blog. You can't find photos of him. He used to have a blog, but you have to go to web archive in order to find it.

because he took it down. And his customers are like, Edwin is not online. You can't find him anywhere, and we like it that way. His business is very boring. The branding is basically not existent, and it just does a very good job.

And compared to Scale, who's like, you know, the hottest kid on the block, like Alex Wang was just on Theo Vaughn's podcast. He was at the inauguration. He's kind of like the it guy right now. These guys are the exact opposite. You're not going to fight them anywhere.

They only have 100 employees. They're totally under the radar. and it's super, super fascinating. Dude, this is, this is wild. I did not know that he bootstrapped the whole thing. I also had never heard this company until Scale got bought. I had never heard of this company. So their company is killing it now because Scale got bought.

So because Scale got bought is now owned basically by Facebook, Google and a bunch of other companies, they go, we don't want to, we don't have with you anymore. We go on straight to surge. But they were already winning. They were at a billion in revenue. And scale was that $750 billion? And the reason why they're winning is because they charge a premium and they're, he's like, I don't, we got scale, but it's like I wasn't trying to get scale, meaning I wasn't trying to grow big.

I was trying to hire the best people and to train them really well. And I charged for it. I charged three times what scale charges and the results have been better and people really like us because of it. And this whole data labeling industry, I had no idea about this. I didn't know that people were behind the scenes making these decisions. It's kind of wild. I mean, this is one of the best, like, picks and shovels businesses. So if you've never heard of picks and shovels, the idea is like anytime there's a gold rush, who makes the money?

Yeah, it's the few people who find the gold. But the more reliable way to make money is just to sell picks and shovels to everybody else who's rushing into the gold rush. And scale and surge were the best picks and shovels businesses, maybe besides Nvidia. because what they were doing is saying, cool, everybody wants to compete to become the, you want to make AGI, you want to make AGI, you're all raising billions of dollars. Well, all of you have this same problem,

and I will sell the data labeling service to all of you. And this is so funny that now that Facebook is buying scale, it's like there's all that revenue has to find a new home. Like, it's crazy that that's the best news ever for this guy. And there's another company called Handshake. So if you go to Join Hand, Handshake.com. Previously, or it still might be this, but they were known as a company that helped recent college graduates get jobs. And so basically they're a job board or job network for

22-year-olds. Dude, yeah, this was for college kids. Okay, well, listen to this. They noticed a few months ago, that surge and scale were using their service to find these data annotators. And so they go, we're going to do that now. And so in a very short amount of time, they pivoted. And that business that they have is going to be at $100 million a year in the next couple months in a very short amount of time. Because what they did was they went and just said, oh, you are looking for a data annotation gig. We got you. Let's go ahead and get your training, and we're just going to provide that service to folks. And so Handshake is building that business now. Dude, that's so crazy. I remember using this because I was like, oh, it's interesting that nobody's really built the kind of like one place to go hire college interns or college like fresh grads.

And they built this like marketplace where you could go post on a job board at my local college here. And I could get, but it was like kind of crappy, dude. It was like, it wasn't great. It was very little liquidity in the market. But I remember thinking like this is an interesting idea. Somebody, like, it's a marketplace. I like marketplaces. Somebody should do this right. And I remember they were kind of like puttering along for a while, it seemed like.

And this is so funny that they pivoted to this and now are going to just explode. Yeah. And if you Google Handshake Data annotation, you can find the blog post that they wrote on them announcing that they were doing this. And so it basically just says that for the past decade, Handshake has changed. how college students started their careers and then it goes on to basically say we're changing the company to like just hire just do this thing and it's already making it and they don't actually say this but like it's now making a hundred million dollars a year and you know i don't know how long this stuff will last like you know this might be a business that i think in like seven to 10 years

you may not need this anymore like it seems like the way a i is going you may not need this kind of a human in the loop to label all this data. Either either they label enough data where then the model learns how to label data. You don't need humans doing this. Or they use a thing that doesn't have the RLHF, right? Like you just do reinforcement learning without human feedback. And I think some people who are kind of pure believers in AI think you won't need the human feedback at a certain point. So this might be a get while they're getting is a good type of business. So let me, Let me tell you a potential counter to that. So Tim Westergen founded the company called Pandora,

and I think he started it in 1990, maybe 98. It was like pre-Iphone. Wait, when on the iPhone come out? 0-8-06. Yeah, so it was like probably like 2002 then. And anyway, he told me this story, because we had him talking at one of our events where he was like, I raised $7 million,

and all $7 million of that went to hiring basics, ex-musicians or musicians who were teachers and didn't make a lot of money. And for two years, I had about 150 of them listening to music. And I gave them basically a Scantron of all types of attributes that a song can potentially have. And so if you're listening to the Beatles, you would fill out like, okay, it sounds like it's at like 90 beats per minute. It sounds like there's guitar. Like it's melodic.

It's lighthearted, whatever. And after two years of doing this, he put all of the data, basically Scantrons, into this algorithm that he built and he started playing like a, he told me a Beatles song. And then he clicked next and it would suggest new music that was similar to the one that the Beatles song that he originally played. And he said the Bee Gees came up. And he was like, the Bee Gees and the Beatles, they're not similar at all. What the hell? And then he kept clitting next. He's like, oh, wait, they have the same melody or they had, they all like have the same, like, they make me feel similar. And he was like, it's working. It's working. And so originally his idea was, I'm going to create

kiosk at Best Buy. So you could say, I'm interested in Beatles. but here's like five other songs that Best Buy could show you, and you will buy those CDs while you're there. And then the iPhone came out, and he was like, oh, my God, this is actually the exact way to apply this. And so this idea of data labeling has been around forever. And I didn't, when I was reading Scale or about Serge, I was like, oh, my God, this is exactly what Tim was explaining to me,

how Pandora started. And so this has been around for 20 years. And so you say, I don't know if it's going to be around or not, but I don't know, it's been around for 20 years so far. Yeah, that's true. but it's kind of like self-driving, which is coming out now. I've taken the Waymo's in San Francisco and Robotaxi in Austin, the Tesla self-driving just launched in Austin,

I think like two days ago or something. But they took two different approaches. So Waymo basically has this really expensive car. I forgot the all-in cost, but it's something like $150,000 to $300,000 is the cost of the car with all the sensors on it, right? So they have this really expensive car with Lidon. And in addition to the LiDAR, they hard code and hard map the roads.

So for years, they would drive around and basically like map the road physically. And they could only launch in cities where they had mapped the roads. And Tesla took this other approach, which was basically cameras only, no LiDAR, and we're not going to hard map the roads. We're going to let people drive around. And then the car needs to have a brain that's smart enough to figure out a road, even if it's never been on that road before. and it was this interesting bet because Elon was like LIDAR is not only we're not doing it

it's stupid and that's a dead end path and everybody else was all along LIDAR everyone's like LIDAR makes it safer it's better you can't do this without LIDAR and Elon's point was we humans drive with just eyes we only have cameras

I don't have a LIDAR in my brain and I'm able to drive safely right And LIDAR is what LIDAR is like you're shooting some type of signal and it bounces back. You can see through things. So I don't know exactly what's the difference of LIDAR and radar and all these different things,

but like it's another version of basically scanning that allows you to do what a camera can. Camera can see through an object. Lidar can. It could sense that there's another object behind it. So the classic example is like, you know, you know, maybe you're going to do a turn. There's something obstructing your view. But then there's a little old grandma walking on the crosswalk. But you couldn't see the grandma until you started the turn visibly.

But Lidar would know that there's something. there's an object there that's moving. Point is, other sensors besides cameras. Whereas Elon was like, no, we're just going to put like, whatever, eight cameras on the car, and that's going to make it work. And for a long time, there was a big debate. Some experts thought Elon is wrong. Some were just like, Elon is correct.

And Elon we trust. And very smart people were on both sides of the debate. And it was like a very high stakes debate because self-driving cars is one of the most valuable prizes that there is. Like self-driving cars, I don't think people really realize it. I think because it's, I think because people talked about it for a while, they got kind of numb to it. This actually happened with AI too. People have been talking about AI, maybe machine learning, deep learning for a long time. People didn't really realize when something actually had changed.

And then suddenly like, wait, it's actually here. And the same people who had been tracking it for a long time were almost late to the party. Because they mistakenly wrote it off as, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard this before. And so the same thing's happening with self-driving cars. We're sort of like a yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, wait a minute, it's actually happening now. It's an extreme game changer, both like for society, for Tesla's business, right? Like Tesla's business is now going to be, if you own a Tesla, when you're, instead of 95% of the time your car just sits parked, you're going to just tap a button and say, go make me some money, please.

And like a dog, it's going to go fetch. It's just going to go out there and it's going to start doing rides for people. And it's going to start earning you money passively all the time. Dude, I think Morgan Stanley or Chase, one of the big banks, like, last week was like wrote up, wrote this report where they had to say what the world's going to look like with self-driving. And it wasn't like, it was far more grand. They're like, the economy is going to look radically different because people are going to have so much more time. Like it was like at a macro scale, it was like, oh, like the world will change because of this. But it was also like there's 60, I think, thousand card deaths.

a year, like, what's the world going to look like with more people? Like, it was like a pretty meaningful, like, it was like a very grand way of thinking about it. It wasn't just like, oh, wow, I could play on my phone while I'm walking or driving to work. It was like, no, everything changes. I asked last night, I asked Grock, I said, what are the second order effects of self-driving cars? Here's what it said. So it's like cities are going to look completely different. Right now, parking lots itself occupy 30% of all urban land in some cities.

And this is going to, you're not going to need parking lots. because the cars aren't going to just sit parked. They're going to be running around. You're going to need way less cars in a city. Plus, they're not going to sit still. So you don't need all of the space. If just look around a city, how much space is dedicated just to parking? Like, we're going to look back and that's going to look sort of like cavemen style thing.

It's like in the future, those are going to be parks and public places. It's going to be smoking in a restaurant. Yeah, exactly. And so like the good version of this is that's like, you know, green spaces and affordable housing. But like, who knows? Maybe it actually gets co-opted for some other purposes. They all just become like, you know, drone delivery, you know, parking units where Amazon keeps like 10 million delivery drones. The next one is labor.

So right now there's three and a half million truck drivers alone, let alone all of the like Uber and taxi drivers. And you're just not going to need that job. Period. And I don't know what happens to that, but there we go. The next one is, you know, basically I think the average person, especially, I think the average person, spend something like 90 minutes a day just commuting. And so you get, you know, of your wake time, let's say you're awake for 16 hours, you're going to add, you know, what is that?

So let's just pretend it's two out of 16. You're going to add like, you know, 13% more time to everybody's day where they can now sleep, eat, work, play, right? You're going to sit in a car and you're not going to have to think about the car. You're just going to be able to do one of those things, which also means the car becomes a new place for entrepreneurs to build experiences, right? Like today, there's no one out there being like, I build car games, right?

There's people who build mobile games and Xbox games, but there's nobody builds car games. Well, car games is going to become a thing because people are going to sit in cars and play video games. People are going to sit in cars and they're going to relax, recover, they're going to work. And so you're going to build tools that go in them. Another one is insurance.

It's like the whole insurance system, like, you know, Buffett's Big Betts and Geico and all those things. It's all based on human driving. And so if humans aren't driving anymore, like both the risk and the risk reward ratios change, but also who are you insuring? You're insuring the software company versus like individuals. Like, how is this all going to work? And so that whole insurance industry changes. And then basically like car ownership.

So today owning a car is both like utility but also status symbol. So it's going to be kind of interesting. Like you're a car guy. Like I wonder when they're self-driving cars and basically transportation is just on tap. like flowing like water, right? You just, you push a button and in 30 seconds, the car of your liking pulls up and you, it's just going to be like people who like horses now.

Like it's going to be a small group of people who are passionate. Yeah, it's just like, oh, you're passionate about it and you are lucky enough to have enough room or enough money to like afford it. But like maybe I would like buy a group on and can go experience that once in my life.

Like that's what it's going to be. Yeah, or like, you know, like horseback riding is like therapeutic. People like to like brush a horse or pet a horse. It's going to be like that with a car. It's going to be like male therapy. to just like get in there and just be behind the wheel. Have control over something in your life. Yeah, it's good.

Or like it's like, you're like like, feel the noise and like smell the gas. Like it's going to be, it's going to be like a hobby. Yeah, it's not going to, it's not going to exist. I don't think. I think it's going to be a lot longer. But like in 20, it could be 20 years, 25 years.

It's not going to be in the next five years. But yeah, it's going to be a hobby. Are you sure about that? Why do you think it's not going to be in the next five years? Waybos are now doing 20% of all the rides in San Francisco. Because that was zero like 12 months ago. Dude, have you like, have you ever like a large percentage of people of Americans have to have to drive, let's say 60 miles one way to to work or they have to like pull stuff or carry stuff? I just don't think.

I think that for the urban. There's it's not. There's going to be like a there's probably going to be like four sections of users. So it's like young urbanites. And it's like, yeah, you guys don't need a car at all. Like you're doing this. Probably already there with Uber. Yeah.

And then like the far end of that spectrum is like rural people who have to actually tow stuff. You know, even though everyone has a truck, very few actually use it. But there's like that section. And there's like the people in between. And there's going to be like a timeline. Because like if you ever, you can't really tow anything on an electric car right now. It's like, it's like, you say you can, but go talk to someone who lives in rural Texas. When you have to be driving shit around all day, it's like impossible.

So I think that there's going to be like, it's going to be like for, you know, what's that early But when you say it's not going to be five years, are you saying it's not going to be, meaning self-driving is not going to work? It's not going to say. No, it's going to work. It's just not going to, just the user adoption. It's like, it's going to take a minute for that, for the whole spectrum of people. I think for the urbanites and people like that, it's, it's tomorrow. We're going to do it, I think.

Yeah. I mean, that guy, towing probably still doesn't, he still has an AOL email address, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think it's pretty safe to say that that person's not. Yeah, it might be 40 years before that person. It's going to be a long time. But then, like, you know, there's like a lot of, you know, people, like, I'm one of them. Like, I'm romantic about my gas vehicle.

I had an electric car and I got rid of it. And I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I acknowledge it's better. I acknowledge that like it's the future. But it sucks. I want to gas. Yeah, it's like our vegan friends. It's like, I get it. Yeah.

We shouldn't kill creatures. But it just tastes so good. Yeah. But when you dip them in ranch, it's fantastic. But I'm excited to do it. What's crazy is in Austin, I think, or SF, people are actually paying more for the Waymo's. Yeah. Yeah. It's not that much cheaper yet. That was, but people are, people want to not be around someone. And, uh, that was unexpected.

So like when I was, when I drive my, my, I have a B&W that has self-driving stuff, I feel way safer on that than if it were just me. Uh, and I think that there's like 20% of people. And it's usually men I've noticed. I've noticed women tend to hate everyone I've talked to, hate self-driving and every man I've talked to. likes it and like have you have you have you do you have any self-driving now um no well I don't I don't have it so I haven't had that that level of a I haven't had a sample size to no I've noticed that here's if that's common or if you're just like indexing on three people no it's well yeah I am but yeah it's like five of my friends like the husbands use it and the wives

are like nope I don't mess with that I don't use it but I feel way safer with it you want to do one more thing or you have something well I have a so I tweeted something out that Elon replied to over the weekend. How did that make you feel? Did you like, did you like clap and like scream? No, so I, first of all,

I played it so cool. You wouldn't, if you had seen me, you would have thought, I might be under the weather. That's how cool I was playing it. And actually what happened is, um,

I just texted my wife and I was like, oh, not Elon replying to me. And, uh, and then I just, I forgot about it. Next day I didn't even think about it.

I moved on. My mom. calls me. She's like, Sean, what did you say? I'm like, what? She's like, Sean, what did you say? Elon? What did you say to Elon? And I was like, what? My wife put it up on her Instagram story. And I was like, oh my God, I'm trying to play a cool over here. And then you made it like, you know, lame city. So that felt interesting that I got like multiple phone calls from people. And I was like, that's like the only time your wife has shared something that is when another person replied to you. Yeah, exactly. And so I thought that was interesting, how big of the reaction was.

But the thing I had said was, I wrote, within a couple of years, not using AI while you're doing your job will be the equivalent of coming to work without a computer. Like if someone just turned up and they're like, no, I didn't bring it today. You'd be like, what the hell, dude? Like, what are you planning to do? What is the, what's the plan here? That's how it's going to be if you're trying to do your job and you're not using AI constantly to do your job. Yeah, I thought that was good. And he applied and he was like, you know, sooner probably.

And so that was like, and so I started thinking about that and I started thinking about somebody else said this thing, they go, pretty soon being a doctor who's not using AI as a co-pilot, like you let's say you're radiologist. And you're just trying to eyeball every MRI

and you're not also running it through AI. That'll be considered malpractice because like you put the patient at risk by not at least including the second layer of AI diagnostics. And I thought that's, pretty interesting. It's like the flip is going to go so much from this doesn't work, you know, something we don't do, we don't even use it, to if you're not using it, it's considered

a malpractice. Whether it's corporate malpractice or medical malpractice. My doctor friend admitted to me the other day, he goes, Open AI is a better doctor than me. And he was like, and I knew this was going to be popular because for years, he's been a doctor for 10 years, patients come to me and said, well, Google says this, or WebMD says this. And he says, over the last six months, the only people who have used that reasoning is with Open AI. And I said, well, according to OpenAI...

Yeah, Chatsypiti said this. And he goes, and they're right a lot of times. The diagnosis is right. Dude, I got to fight with a doctor recently about this. Did I tell you this? What did they say? My mom had to have a surgery, but she was on a trip.

And so I'm like calling in to the doctor, every time the doctor would make her rounds, she would FaceTime me in because she's on the other side of the country. And so the doctor would come in and like doctors, doctors are very hit or miss. I love some doctors,

but a lot of doctors, I'm like, wow, this is an extremely underwhelming experience. And so this one doctor comes in and she's like, yeah, your levels were fine. And then I'm like,

I actually read the test through chat GPT and the levels were like high for this. And she's like, well, which level? And I'm like, I tell her, I'm like, whatever the thing, whatever the term was.

And she's like, yeah, that was high. But, you know, it depends on the exact number. So I go, what was the number? I would have to check. I'm like, you're the doctor. So yeah, you would have to check. Like, you know, what are you talking about?

And I'm like, you know, basically chat GPT said, if it's above this, then you should consider doing this like additional step. Like, do you believe that that's, like, do you agree with that? Like, do you think we should do that step? She's like, well, I mean, you're putting me on the spot here and I don't have the number. And I'm like, and she basically, was getting pissed and she's like, well, if you're going to ask me questions, then I'm going to need to go look at the number.

And I literally was like, yeah, you are going to need to go look at the number then. Because I am going to ask the questions. What are we doing here? I don't understand. Like, why are you offended by me asking if you, if you have seen the data from the test, the test you just said to run and now you're coming back to discuss the test results and you don't want to look at the test results? I don't really understand what's happening here.

Well, I think what's going to happen is that, you know how, have you noticed? So have you ever been to a doctor now with an AI scribe? So like they have like for, okay, so for a long time. Oh, I was humiliating her in front of her AI scribe. Is that what happened? Well, for a long time, they could have been human scribes. And so like, have you been to a doctor and seen like a person on an iPad? Like literally, it looks like the doctor's FaceTiming.

Typing notes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like a scribe. Now they have AI scribes. And I think what's going to happen is like the AI is going to like talk up and be like, actually, man, but he's right. I think that's what's going to happen.

And if I was an entrepreneurial doctor, I would 100% start a new practice, all centered around, we are AI first. So we work with AI, you know, and I don't think that we aren't at the point, and maybe we'll never be at the point, where you totally trust it. Just like you always want the pilot,

even if autopilot is still a thing. But I would like go heavy on that, of leaning into like, we have all of the context here. we have all of your files uploaded to our chat, GBT, or whatever it is, and have an AI first because I think that a lot of people like you and me and people listen to this podcast, they have the similar sentiment where they're like, oh, no, I trust a computer way more than a human being. But I would also want the human being to put their stamp on it.

It's also there's a subtle difference. Because it's not even that like, oh, the AI found the problem and the doctor didn't. Sometimes it's just as simple as like, cool, the doctor came in, they talked kind of fast, they didn't fully explain. I still have more questions. And so you go and you ask chat GPD to explain it to you maybe simpler or you ask some follow-up questions. Maybe you're not as embarrassed to ask questions.

You feel like you're not like, you know, the person's not like in a rush to get out of there like a lot of doctors are. And so sometimes it's not even that the AI doctor is better because it's smarter. Sometimes it's because it's infinitely patient or it's an infinitely better communicator or, you know, it knows, you know, maybe other things about you or, you know, you could ask some follow-up questions. You don't feel silly doing it. Like those are other components of the doctor experience, essentially bedside manner, that is better at. Yeah.

And so I'm like very eager to see how this works. I go to, I go to a doctor now, a concierge doctor, and it's not very expensive. But the reason I go there is the average, at most doctors, they have to see four patients an hour. So they're at 15 minutes. Right. And is that insane? I remember I went to a doctor and like my head an earache. I'm like, guys, my ear is killing me.

and like he spent no time like trying to like help me like figure this out and I went to a concierge doctor and the average time is 45 minutes so we can like thoroughly walk through things and so if I can just use all the information that they have and then go and ping chat chabit to further the conversation it is pretty brilliant I'm very eager to see what's going to happen I like people act like AI is amazing for a bunch of different stuff and it is but what they're doing with medicine and drugs and cancer and things like that is like pretty astounding and I think that's going to be the major breakthrough and the next couple years. Dude, the other one, lazy-ass parenting. So your kid's a little young for this, but it is amazing. Dude, I'll open up Gemini and has like a camera mode.

Wait, but why do you use different ones? You've said Claude, or sorry, you've said, uh, Gronk, and now you're saying Gemini. And then we also refer to to, so you use different ones. It's like, you know, you go to your different friends for different questions. You only ask me certain questions. Sometimes you go to your, you know, you go to Joe. You got to different people for different things. So like if you want to be, if you want something that's a little bit more real and objective, I think Grock is better. If you want something that's either code or creative writing, Claude is better. You know, the catch all is chat GPT. And then Gemini has some like advanced feature. So this is what I was saying like Gemini has the thing where you just turn your camera on like

FaceTime. And I think it's for like maybe you're supposed to like show it your car, be like, how do I repair this? And it like tells you what to do. But I just. pointed at my kids and I'm like, hey, we're playing charades. Guess what they're doing. And then my kids will like get on the ground and start like crawling. And it's like, hmm, seems to be a boy crawling. Maybe it's a snake. Are you a worm? And it like tries to guess it. And they love it, dude. And so I'm able to just straight up chill and let them play with AI. It is amazing. Another one I'll do is I'll just be like, hey, I have a five year old and a four year old here. And they want trivia questions. They like animals. They like pop patrol. They like, you know,

They know a little about about Pokemon, but nothing too complicated. Ask them a bunch of questions. Cheer them on when they get it right. If they get it wrong, tell them the right answer. Keep track of the score. Here's their names. Go. That's the prompt.

And it plays trivia endlessly with my kids. And they love it because it's all audio, which kids can do. They don't have to, like, be on screens to be able to do this. And so I'm just discovering, like, game after game, I can play with them. Like, I'll do, like, basically replaced Kuman with, hey, I need advanced kindergarten math, which like, I don't even know what that means, but it like gets you, for whatever reason, those three words give me the sweet spot of like a question that that kind of works for my kids. And it's like a tutor, right? It's an infinitely patient tutor with them.

And it's not perfect in the sense of like, you know, sometimes it like starts and stops. It's audio because if you make any sound, it thinks you're talking. But damn, it's pretty good. And it's like already usable for us. I've not seen. I didn't even, I didn't know much about Gemini. Gemini Live, I had no idea what this was. Is this Google?

This is Google. Gemini is like after summer break, you know, that one kid who comes back, it's like they're kind of like hot now, but you still have the old image of them. Like their reputation is still being like not hot. But objectively, they're hot now. Yeah. But nobody's really on it yet. That's what Gemini is.

Gemini was basically out of the game. It's Google's AI tools. Out of the game. It was just chat GPT, grot, claw, love. Yeah. And then she changed. And she like, it's like, wait, like she got contacts and like she learned how to do her hair. She like watched a makeup tutorial.

It's like, she started rollerblading, which was like surprisingly good cardio. And now, like, suddenly Gemini could do things that like the other ones can't do, but nobody's on it yet. Which doesn't really actually give you any benefits. Wait, so Gemini is hot now? Gemini's hot now. Google's hot? Google's hot, yeah. I don't know, man.

That's hard for me to buy into. But. Yeah, because you're one of those jocks. at school who's just stuck in seventh grade. You forgot what happened over seventh grade summer. All right, I'll use this. Yeah, I'm just stuck on chat chb-tieb-t. And I don't use grok because I'm shot.

When people say they use gronk, I'm like, wait, so you go to like Twitter.com to use AI. No, grok.com. That's just, is that the same thing as that's the Twitter one? Yeah. Because Steph Smith just got a job at this other one. What was that other one called? Oh, no, she got it at grok with a cue. That's stupid name.

I'm a shareholder of Grop with the Q also, but unfortunate naming situation. Yeah, and it's AI as well? They're making chips. Okay, well, they should change their name. Yeah, they should change their name. Because, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Or at least the pronunciation, right? Like, I don't know how you all see.

It needs to be grok or something like that. I don't know what they're going to do. They could be grok, I guess, but they, yeah, Gronk is. So it's the same. I love how you putting the N in there, like it's Rob Gankowski. Wait, what did I say? You're saying Gronk. Oh, what is it?

Grock. Grock? Yeah. Like the shoes, crocs? Yeah, like Crocs. Wait, so what is the Twitter thing? What do you mean? What is it?

That's also Gronk. Oh, that's not Gronk? Oh, I thought it was Gronk. Yeah. There's no N. Any of them. That guy's a football player. He's a retired football player.

Dude, I went to Montana to visit a friend last week, and I wore overalls because they're like the best. I saw a photo of that, and I just thought to myself, holy shit, this guy's got, this guy's got no, no limits. He's just wearing overalls as standard, standard wear. It's the best clothing because you could put your phone in your wallet right there on the chest. And so you're like, holy kids, like, you just have so many pockets that you have like this right here. And I love it. And she was like, oh, you got these, did you think that we're all cowboys here? And I was like, huh?

And she's like, you wore your overalls to Mountaineau? You're trying to make fun of us? I was like, what are you talking about? I've worn these for years. I am not pretending. No, I actually just got to. By the way, I was very inspired by your Instagram post. You wrote something, the caption of your post you go, from now on, I'm only taking photos that if my kid looked at it 20 years from now, they'd be like,

my dad was pretty cool I thought that was great that's that's because you have that photo of your father right of him when he was in his 30s and you're a baby and he's like doing something cool he's wearing a cool shirt and you're like oh wow dad was sick they're like oh yeah you don't see them like that anymore right like they don't care anymore they're like fat now or whatever

and so you don't you don't see that side of them but like it lets you put a little respect on their name when you see like oh damn when you're young they were actually kind of that's actually kind of fly what they were wearing So I was smoking a cigar and they were, which I never do, but I like was smoking a cigar and like they were going to take a photo with my kid or someone had a camera. I was like, go take photos and I put the cigar. I used to hide it. I would hide it behind my back.

And I'm like, no, fuck this. She's going to be proud. So I put it back in. Dude, do you think smoking is going to be cool in 30 years? That's going to be like you had like a slave with you or something. It's going to be crazy that you were just smoking with a baby on your shoulder. Brother, have you seen the photo of the eight guys sitting on the beam off the, like, of the Empire State Building?

That's a great picture. I think to myself, those guys are crazy. They're dangerous. But they're fucking hard. That is awesome. And so I will never be on the beam of the Empire State Building, a thousand feet above the air, but at least I could smoke a cigar and look remotely cool. Dude, we should print this out.

I want this framed. Dude, three of them have overalls, very similar to the ones you were wearing. Yeah, what's up? Same make and model. Yeah. You just need this like beret hat. You probably have this. What am I talking about?

Of course you have this hat. Yeah, and the courage to eat lunch a thousand feet above the ground, which is like, even back then, the coworkers were like, guys, what are you doing? There's a cafeteria like right here. Like, it's a fuck.

All right, that's it. That's a pod. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all. In it like no days off on a road less travel never looking back