My First Million - Did the creator of Bitcoin just get unmasked?

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Episode 637: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) talk about the conspiracy theory behind Bitcoin’s biggest mystery.  — Show Notes:  (0:00) The making of Satoshi (14:02) Is Peter Todd the guy? (30:20) A "1 minute" case for Bitcoin (35:21) “It's political suicide to not be pro crypto" (43:42) Must watch crypto thriller movies (46:32) SBF and FTX update — Links: • Money Electric - https://tinyurl.com/yw5mktnn  • Bitcoin Forum - https://bitcointalk.org/  • Fidelity Crypto Funds - https://www.fidelity.com/etfs/crypto-funds  • Trust No One - https://tinyurl.com/32fxa9y3  • The Night Of - https://tinyurl.com/3wmm68cc  — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: Need to hire? You should use the same service Shaan uses to hire developers, designers, & Virtual Assistants → it’s called Shepherd (tell ‘em Shaan sent you): https://bit.ly/SupportShepherd — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by The HubSpot Podcast Network // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

Okay, so maybe they found Satoshi Nakamoto, which is exciting. One of my favorite mysteries. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. It's an intoxicating story. And you're talking about the new HBO documentary. I didn't watch it yet, but like the headlines make it like amazing. I have to watch it.

What's the gist? So the documentary is not amazing. I'm going to start with that. It's good, it's good, but not. amazing. It's interesting because the guy thinks he found Satoshi. That's the only interesting part, to be honest. The documentary is kind of poorly made. Like, the director makes himself a pretty big character. And he also says stuff that feels like unprofessional. Like, he'll be talking, and then, you know, they made NFTs, whatever the hell those are. And it's like, whoa,

why is the narrator like so opinionated? It's kind of crazy. But what's interesting to me is, look, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm into any theory of who Satoshi is. I think it, I think it is amazing that something like Bitcoin even happened. It's straight out of a movie. Yeah, tell me the story. Okay, though the whole story is this. 2008, really, there's a white paper, the Bitcoin white paper gets released where some guy posts on a forum and posts in there that, hey, he thinks he solved the double spend

problem, which was a lot of people in the past had tried to make a virtual currency, a digital gold. There was e-gold. There was hash cash. There was all these different things that were tried, and they all filled for different reasons. So, for example, Egold started to get really popular. I had like $2 billion in volume. But the guy who created it, created it as a company.

It was a founder, a CEO of a company called Egold, and he lived in wherever Canada or something like that. And as it hits $2 billion in transaction volume, and on the website, it says, this is a digital currency backed by actual gold. And it says, we'll be around today, tomorrow, and forever. and actually instead knock, knock, government knocks on his door, comes in, raids and puts him in jail. And so problem one with digital currencies

was you can't be the guy behind it because as soon as this thing gets popular, you have too much power. And the nation states who today control the currency supply, they're not going to like you or that or they're just going to do character attacks on you to discredit the currency. Okay, so Satoshi solved that problem,

launching it under this pseudonym, Satoshi Nakamoto, nobody knows who it is, you know, the anonymity of the whole thing. thing and then he disappears. Okay. So the second thing was other people tried to do it with hash cash and other things, but to get the actual cryptography to work, to get the currency to work, you had to make sure that nobody could double spend the money, right?

So like one of the reasons when you swipe your credit card today, that transaction goes to a bank. The bank says, yes, this person's got the money and that money's not already been spent. It sends that message back to the register. The register says approved. That lets you go buy the thing, right? So the bank takes its 3% fee because it's verifying that, Yes, this person has the money that this person's card doesn't appear to be stolen and that

that money has not already been spent in another shop 10 minutes ago. So what Bitcoin did was, or what Satoshi did is he released his white paper saying, I think I've solved that problem. I think I've actually created a decentralized way to make money, meaning money that can be trusted even though there's no central party like a bank or a government that is verifying all the transactions. Okay, so that's the breakthrough. That happens in 2008.

They're discussing it. 2009, the first Bitcoin block happens. And do this person actually code something? You use the phrase white paper, which, uh, which means as a white paper, which is just an explanation of a system. It's an idea. It's an idea written out, like a business plan, but the technical variant of it, right? Here's the, here's the technical plan of how we could create a currency that's decentralized

that every trust. All right. Great. Uh, but it's not coded yet. Then he codes it. And by the way, people, when they've looked at the code, they're like, this is not done by like a super sophisticated programmer. Like there's things that when you look at the code, you can sort of see the elegance of it,

the styling of it, all that, the level of technical proficiency. And when they put, when you look at that, they don't think that it's done by somebody who's a super well, a super senior programmer. So they think either one of two things. One, it might be an academic type of person. So somebody who's technical enough, but really it's the theory. That's the conceptual leap. That was the big leap.

Or that it might be somebody young. They're like, it works, but it's just like the wires are messy. Exactly. And by the way, the sort of sequence of events, and I'm doing this off top of my head, so I might get some dates wrong. So 2009, so after the 08 financial crisis, which was like what people believe was the stimulus for why Satoshi felt this needed to happen because the banks got super greedy. Lehman Brothers fails and other banks start to fail. The U.S. government steps in and buys $700 billion worth of bad debt, basically bails out the banks, prints more money, tries to basically paper over the problems, right? And so people who, A, want a currency that's like a hard currency, meaning something that you can't just print a whole bunch more and devalue my currency because some other people made mistakes. They didn't like that.

And in general, this idea that it's too big to fail and the government controls it, people didn't like that. And you know that he feels this way because he's blogging every day? It's written in the, there's references to why there's a need for this in the white paper. There's his forum post. And this is all happening on message board forums. Which message board forum? Originally it was just that the sort of cryptographers like mailing list, but then he created

a forum of his own called Bitcoin Talk. So Satoshi creates Bitcoin Talk. His username is called Satoshi, which is a very important point for how this guy thinks he found him in the end. So on January 3rd, there's a message embedded in the first ever Bitcoin block, which says the Times 03 Jan 2009, Chancellor on the brink of second bailout for banks. So in the very first block, Satoshi,

who mined that block, the Genesis block of the whole thing, is basically putting in an ideal, like a statement there, which is chancellors on the bank on the, the chancellor is on the brink of a second bailout for the banks, pointing out why we need something like this in the first place, right? Dude, how awful is this? This is so like, you know, like in high school where you read literature and they want you to dive deep.

And they're like, did you notice on, you know, page 200, he killed someone. But you notice on page 50, he alluded to like he was going to do that. Like he said he loved red. Do you know what I mean? Like this is like what this is. It definitely has big aim away message energy. It definitely has when I'm in the bathroom and I, Sean was here. He is always here.

It's like, what? Why does he mean? Who was trying to get poetic in the bathroom stall? Like that was Satoshi on the first block. All right. So he posts there. Now, let's fast. a few years. So they're, but Bitcoin's like at like, like, you know, one cent, 30 cents. It's like not a,

not like what Bitcoin is today at all, anywhere close to it, right? And, but the, the community is interested in it and they're talking about it. And it exists. Now, a couple of years, fast forward a a couple of years, something happens where Satoshi posts one day, then the WikiLeaks leak happens. Satoshi posts and says, they've, I'm afraid that this is, they've kicked the hornets nest. And this is going to cause a lot of unwanted attention. It's too young. It's too young to deal with the government coming after us to try to shut this down because WikiLeaks is saying, oh, we can use Bitcoin.

And the government hates WikiLeaks, therefore they're going to try to cut, like, choke WikiLeaks by killing the Bitcoin system. So isn't that intoxicating thing? You're just like dorking around on a message board and you're playing with concepts of like the government is after us or like this big national security. threat is bad news for us because like, you know what I mean? And by the way, there's references to this so early on when nobody like, you know, Bitcoin might have had, I don't know, 200 eyeballs on it at the time.

Like 200 people on earth knew about Bitcoin. But the foresight to say, I'm going to be Satoshi, I'm going to keep this all anonymized. The second thing to say, there's people like Hal Fannie who go in there and very early replies and they're like, well, if this actually became, you know, adopted as well, you know, the world's reserve currency, that would make every Bitcoin worth like, you know, $2 million or something like that. It's like Bitcoin's worth not even $1. Yeah, that's just like a ridiculous thing to type out.

Exactly. It's absolutely ridiculous, but this is like sort of the foresight, the visionary sense of it. And by the way, that guy Hal Finney, a lot of people think Hal is the, how is Satoshi because the case for Hal is brilliant, you know, cryptography mind. He was the first recipient of Bitcoin. So the first transaction was Satoshi sending to Hal, which if you're a programmer, it's like, did you send to yourself? That's a, usually that's how programmers start things.

that might also be the case against because if this guy's kind of trying to cover his tracks, he would definitely not send to himself as the first transaction, right? And then Hal gets Lou Gehrig's disease and dies and disappears. He dies at the same time just Satoshi's last message is worth. Right? So, and the fact that this person has resisted the temptation

to move to like either claim credit or touch their, you know, $700 billion fortune that's sitting there. Not a single coin has ever been used from that that, that fortune. Maybe it's because the guy's dead, right? Maybe that's the only way to explain somebody who has the resistance to it. Which also is related to this current suspect's case.

Yeah. Exactly. So let's carry on. So people think it's Hal Finney. People think it might be this guy, Adam back, who created hash cash cash and definitely traded emails early on with Satoshi. And, you know, he runs Blockstream, a company associated with Bitcoin. So people don't know who it is.

They think it might be this mysterious Asian guy, Way Di. He's like this brilliant cryptographer, too. Nobody knows it. There's no photos of this guy on the internet he claims. So they're like maybe that's Satoshi. People don't know. Another person who like kind of came to the mix. Have you read the book about Paul LaRue?

I think is the book is called it's about it's called Mastermind. And people read it, but you told me about this. Oh my God, intoxicating story. And like he was thrown in the mix. So there was like all these people who thrown in the mix. People think it's Elon, is it whoever. And it's like, okay, we get sort of far fetched. That's sort of the fun of it, by the way.

It's like, you know, the mystery. I genuinely think we are all better. off not knowing. In fact, I'm sort of, I'll spoil this for a second. The documentary comes out. It makes a case as to who they think it is. The reaction on Twitter is like, oh my God, that's no way, that's BS. You know, that's weak proof. I don't know. Maybe it's because that was the react that the vociferous like, no way, no chance. No chance in hell. I'm like, I don't know. The evidence is sort of, the evidence is sort of interesting. Yeah. So finish the behavior of the person's interesting. Okay. So let's continue on. So.

the WikiLeaks thing happens, I think something like 2011, 2012, Satoshi posts, three days later, he makes his last post. So he posts, WikiLeaks happens two days later, three days later, last post disappears, never to be heard from again. Okay. So that's the, the mystery kind of like sits there. Or actually, I think he did come back and post something in like 2014, 2015. And by the way, he didn't disappear as I said nobody heard from.

He at some point even said, I'm going to move on. I'm going to stop talking about. I'm going to stop contributing to this. Like it's, it's on its way and I'm going to move on. I'm going to stop talking about this. So then in 2014-20-50, there's a big debate in Bitcoin about like the transaction speeds too slow.

Some people say, hey, we got to make the block size bigger. That'll let more transactions go through. Some people say, no, no, no, you can't change something as fundamental as the block size.

We should do this other more complicated thing that will take years. But the reason we should do that is because if we change anything about the Bitcoin protocol, it undermines, it's like, oh, if you can change that, then can't you change the 21 million supply?

Like you lose the core credibility. There's two sides of this debate. And on one side of the debate is this guy, Roger Verr, who calls himself Bitcoin Jesus. He paid a huge bet on Bitcoin early on millions of dollars and became a billionaire off of it. And there's other people who are saying, look, we need to get this thing adopted now.

We need the quick and dirty solution. Just double the block size and shut up about it, all right? People want to use this thing. They can't use it today. We got a minute to do the fast solution. Let's go, go, go. They end up actually on the wrong. side of the history, the community goes against them. They create their own thing called Bitcoin

cash kind of just thing that has low reputation. The people who said, no, no, no, we got to stay true to Satoshi's vision. We're Adam back. It's got Peter Todd and like, you know, a handful of others who said, no, no, no. The thing with Bitcoin is it's got to be pristine. It can't be where like the government printing money, we can't just suddenly arbitrarily change the rules. It's like people who want to follow the Constitution, which is like, it's all like a, it's like a pretty funny thing that the Constitution was just like a group of like 20 and 30 year olds who like came up with this idea and now billions of people and 250 years have passed and we've all just kind of bought into this idea that this is the way things are and no matter how the world changes we don't break it

we don't change it because even if you think you get a problem yeah second amendment do we need that is that exactly right it's like once you change the amendments now everything's up for grabs and so it's actually sort of better for the collective that way which is like a ridiculous concept to think about. And you can also say the same is true for religion and like holy text where you're like someone wrote this and tens or hundreds of billions that people have dedicated their lives to it. Like it is like a really fascinating concept.

And that's what's happening or that is what you're referring to. Because it's very much like a religion and the people who follow it are very like religious about it. And so anyways, he weighs in one last time there saying small block size is what we should do. And it goes the way of Adam back, Peter Todd and these other guys. Okay, cool. That's the last we heard of Sinoji. And they've tried to find them.

know how to find him. So this documentary, yeah, who's the guy? The documentary goes through and he basically under the premise of, he goes to all the OG bitcoins and he tells them I'm doing this documentary. He doesn't tell them he's trying to find Satoshi. What he tells them is more along the lines of, I want to tell the Bitcoin story. I don't know if he tells them it's going to be on HBO,

but like this is good for things. So a lot of them agree to do this, which is pretty rare for them to agree to sit down and do these like taped interviews. And along the way, as he's to build, make this documentary, he's slipping in questions about Satoshi. Who is, are you Satoshi? Why do people think that you are? What's your claim to not be, right?

Hey, people think that guy is. Do you think that? Well, what makes that credible? So he's slipping in the documentary is basically, he kind of filters out 80 or 90% of their conversation probably and kept the 10% that was about like trying to figure out the Satoshi stuff. Okay. So in the end, he, um, he puts it on this guy, Peter Todd.

And Peter Todd seems like an unlikely character for a bunch of reasons. Number one, when Bitcoin, when the Bitcoin, paper was released, Peter Todd would have only been something like 23 years old. He was like kind of like a kid. Number two, he's he's come out and joked around like, yeah, I am Satoshi, which like, you know, the real Satoshi is probably pretty paranoid. On the other hand, some people say, no, the meta game would be you jokingly say that you are Satoshi to throw suspicion off you, right, that sort of thing. There's not a lot of evidence that ties him to this. So they're like, okay, I guess it could be Peter Todd, but like, why not Hal Finney, the guy who got the first transaction? Why not Adam back, who

was one of the first people ever to talk to Stoci and never has released those emails between him and Satoshi and was the inventor of hash cash cash. Like that guy seems more sophisticated to be able to do this. Why is it not a group? Why is it not the FBI? Like the case against him isn't he can't be. It's more of

why him. There's so many other more likely people. And again, the biggest case against him is he was really young and that he kind of trolls and jokes around with this. And he's also very opinionated about other things. So like he's very opinionated about like Russia and Ukraine like a bunch of shit like that.

And so people don't like him in general. He's not a very well-liked figure. So it kind of doesn't jive with the Bitcoin community that this is our fearless leader. It's like, wait, we kind of think this guy's kind of a prick. Because Satoshi kind of has this stoic mentality, this writing that is like us versus the world, like a very much like visionary attitude. And you're describing someone that may not have like George Washington vibes. you know. Well, look, the funniest tweet I saw on this

because I was trying to see the community's reaction. The funniest tweet that I think is underratedly how people will feel about this. The guy goes, Peter Todd,

this, it goes, Peter Todd, that's the most average-ass name I've ever heard. This guy, this guy looks like the most average-ass guy I've ever seen. Well, I'm looking at him.

He does look like, if that was Satoshi, I would be disappointed, right? Like, oh, it's just this guy. This is this white dude who like, you know, has all these,

like, other opinions that I kind of disagree with. Like, that kind of, the veneer of Satoshi goes away. Whereas if you Google Hal Finney, he looks like a person that just studies all day.

Yeah, Hal was this beloved guy. And then he dies tragically. And it's sort of like he went down with the ship. The captain went down with the ship. He never revealed. And the other thing about Hal is he cryogenically froze his head. And so like if a thousand years from now,

cryonics are a thing and you can unfreeze, they're like he's got the private key in his head and he'll come out of Satoshi. It's like, whatever. Okay. So it's kind of like that has that sort of aura. Okay. Now let me give you the evidence.

Why does this documentary guy claim that it's Peter taught? Okay. So the evidence is basically this. Back right when that thing happened, remember I said there was a post, the WikiLeaks happened and he disappeared. Everybody thinks that it's because of the WikiLeaks thing that he got paranoid and he decided to bounce. There was one other thing that happened after that post, that first post that was not

to do with WikiLeaks at all. That thing that happened was Satoshi posted about how the transaction, and like mechanism works. And then the first reply underneath, an hour and a half later, is from Peter Todd. But it looks like a continuation of the thought. So he says, in the original post, he says, you know, the inputs and the outputs would match.

And then he, and then the Peter Todd reply comes in. And it just says, to be specific, the inputs and the outputs wouldn't exactly match. It would be whatever. Now, some people would say that's just a snarky internet forum, like kind of rude comment. Like you didn't even,

there's no formality, there's no, like, there's no, there's no, uh, understanding. You're just like immediately trying to like correct something from somebody's post. That happens all the time on the other day. Another lens, you can look at that same thing is Satoshi writes this thing, comes back to clarify, forgets to switch back to his alt account. And that post has been up there and it's been left up there for a very long time. So the guy, the documentary guy is reading that. And he's like, dude, are we dumb?

Have we missed this? Doesn't this look like it's a continuation of the thought? It's a clarification of the thought. And for this guy who claims to have not been interested in Bitcoin until years later and claims to be have been busy in school, for him to come in at 1.30 in the morning and make a super specific clarification as to how the Bitcoin mechanism works, that doesn't really line up with this guy who wasn't interested and didn't follow it and was just a kid at the time. By the way, this is how they caught Ross Ulbrook, the creator of Silk Road. He just, he posted on a forum logged into the wrong username or he left his email like, Like it was like a clerical air. By the way, this is how they got Timothy McVeigh from Oklahoma City bombing. He, one of his tail lights was out.

Like there's like lots of examples of big shot criminals being busted over minor things. One thing like this. And but you know, this is in the, right now on Twitter, people are saying, you think Satoshi who's been like flawless with his opsec, his security of how he did this? You think he would just stupidly log into the wrong account and leave the message there? And it's like, yeah, actually that happened all the time. That's actually a. a pretty common pattern.

In fact, if I said, what's the most likely way we find them? It's either that or like, you know, maybe the email he registered his Satoshi email with gets leaked somewhat. Yeah, it's like, it fits a stereotype of like,

when you think of like the brilliant scientist, you think of Albert Einstein with like mismatch socks. You know what I mean? Like this is like, this is the internet equivalent of that. So that's the first piece. Then,

then there's like some other, there's like a few secondary things. So there's like the language. Like he writes like, Kallor with O-U-R. He writes like in the Canadian. in English spelling. This guy was going to school in Toronto at the time.

But a lot of people like, you know, is this guy brilliant, a Satoshi? You know, he was so young at the time. Is this even possible? And then they go find a message from him on the, on the cryptography forums before Bitcoin ever came out, eight years prior to when Bitcoin came out. So how old was he at that point? He's 15 or 16 years old at the time. And he writes, he's sitting, he's hanging out in this, you know, cypherpunk, you know, community.

and he basically says on the forum and he's like he's like yeah hash cash cash blah blah he had that and then he's talking about the mechanism he's like it would have to be something more than proof of work blah blah blah blah effing double spend problem and that's like the like the snippet from this email chain that he had he's posted back then which is like okay so you're 15 16 years old you're obviously brilliant and not just like you know some random programmer kid and you're thinking and noodling about this problem eight years prior. His mom taught him about cryptography. His dad was an economist.

So it's like the two skills you would need to be Satoshi is like you'd need the brilliance on the encryption and cryptography side. And you would need the ethos and the sort of ideology on, you know, creating, you know, what is a currency anyways? What is money? What is hard money? And how does the world economics work? That's his, this kid's background.

So how old is he now, by the way? mid to late 30s is his age now. And he works for Blockstream and he's like very close with that guy, Adam back. And Adam would have been the, you know, the people that he would collaborate with after, after creating this. Now, the most damning thing is so the documentary confronts him on like live. And by the way, imagine being 39 and having this documentary come out about you, like accusing you of being the richest person in the world, accusing you of inventing this amazing thing. Like, there's one side of you that's like, oh, man, I want all the credit. I want all this.

The other part. But then you're like, well, if I'm not it, but should I say I'm it? Should I be it? There's also a very irresponsible part of this. Let's say this documentary is wrong. I mean, you just painted it. You just ruined a guy's life, basically. Like, if people believe that you're Satoshi, your life immediately is in danger.

People think that you're one of the wealthiest people on earth. every government agency, every government, you know, wants to sort of take you to the back room and talk to you and sometimes worse, right? So like, if he is Satoshi, I think it's a very bad thing for him. I almost feel bad bringing it up, but I think we got to talk about, you know, I needed to hear your reaction to this. And obviously, it's out. I'm not the one, you know, putting this out there. It's out now. So just watch this video and tell me what you think.

All right. So you reach out to your old buddy Adam back. You say, we need to do something about this, but we need to pay the devs. But you can't join Blockstream because it would look to, uh, suspicious. Okay, so I just watched this clip. First of all, this is definitely editorial, like, you know, very opinionated versus factual.

This guy, so basically it's a tall nerdy guy with his hands in his pockets, and he's doing exactly what I am accused of doing all the time when I'm nervous, which is I rock back and forth. Fidget, I shift, shifty eyes. Immediately look at the friend who you're in on it with, who, by the way, that guy Adam in the back, who's his friend, who's the other kind of like co-collaborator on this thing, silent the entire time, like frozen.

Because the director sort of sprung this. They didn't come out here to talk about that, right? They're doing this walk through this like ruins area or whatever. Supposed to talk about whatever. And the director sort of does a gotcha moment. And this is their reaction. Dude, all right. So he's got his hands at his pocket and he's rocking back and forth.

I had to officiate a wedding last week. And Sarah was like, I could tell you're nervous. No one else knew you're nervous. I knew you're nervous. And I was like, how? She goes, you were rocking back and forth. You kept doing that thing where you rock back and forth. And I do it all the time.

This guy's doing that exact same thing. He's very clearly uncomfortable and he's got a very awkward smile. This is, this is a, yeah, he didn't respond well. But you could also say like- You could chalk that up to every bitcorner. Yeah, there's dork. They can't make eye contact. That's why they're amazing.

Like, you can't be this and also have good eye contact. You can have both. So what do you think? Is this the guy? So I don't know if this is the guy or not, but it is probably the most, it's one of the most compelling things. And it's funny,

it's being so discredited by the community. So either I'm missing something, which is entirely possible, or it's sort of wishful thinking, because it's much better if he's not Satoshi. And I don't think the evidence is super, super strong. But it's a very compelling theory. That's kind of where I've landed.

It's a compelling theory. This guy who clearly at 15 or 16 was brilliant and thinking specifically about the double spend problem. And then talks and then comes out and it has this forum post, which is the timing is very interesting about right when it happens, the way it's written and then the guy disappears. And then by the way, this guy also disappeared for two years after that in the Bitcoin form, doesn't participate.

And he's like, oh, I was busy. I was a student. I should have been more interesting Bitcoin. I just wasn't. And then when he comes back, he actually does a thing called replaced by fee, which is basically this mechanism

where you could pay a little extra to get your transaction done faster and actually is like one of the useful patches to Bitcoin. So he comes back and contributes this useful patch to the Bitcoin code afterwards. And in this thing,

he's like, his nervous answer is basically like, what? Me? Oh yeah, yeah, I'm totally Satoshi. I mean, that's crazy.

Why are you saying that? You know, you're going to look really stupid if you release this. And it's like, those are things I do when I'm trapped in a lot. Maybe I'm projecting here.

You alluded to something about the name, Satoshi Nakamoto, is that, did he imply something earlier in his career before Satoshi existed that he liked that name or was tied to that name? There was no, no, there's no evidence on that. The evidence was basically, the combination of evidence was that forum post, the timing of both of their disappearances. It's him, you know, when he's 15, 16 years old on the forums, it's his kind of like his spelling and kind of his writing style, even the way he kind of like punctuates where it's like the two, two spaces after the period, the OUR, things that are a lot of people do, but they all,

they don't, they do fit with this guy. Did Hal Finney write like Satoshi? No, they've looked at like Hal Finney's code and then Satoshi's code, but then, you know, there's an answer for everything. Oh, he's so brilliant. He knew to modify the code into a different style, right? There's an answer for everything. It's a, like all conspiracies, it's sort of what you choose to believe or what you choose

to not believe. That's pretty hard. Like, I actually think that that, that, that, like, I, Because when I used to actually write in fake names, like fake blog posts all the time, and I remember trying to change how I was writing. And I remember doing that and thinking, this is really challenging. Everyone's going to know this is me. I used to write fake blog post.

Like I had like pseudonyms that I would just like fill my blog with. And so that's like a pretty compelling actually piece of evidence if you ask me. Yeah. Like I want to be super clear. I don't know the answer. I'm not saying I believe this or I don't believe this. I'm saying this is the most interesting thing. theory on, this is the most interesting new theory on Satoshi, right?

So there's been, over the years, there's been many theories, including the time when, like, I forgot like the New Yorker or New York Post or something like chased down that random Asian guy and was like, it's him, Dorian Nakamoto, this is the guy. And he's like, he's like, didn't know where he was. And basically like had his life ruined for like 48 hours. You know, there's a, there's been many theories over the years. This might be just another hairbrain theory. But I would say, it's the most interesting one in a few years to me.

And as somebody who I'm just fascinated by the story, I badly. want to know, but I also, I understand that it would be much better to never know for all of us to never know and for whoever it is. You know, like I think they had a great contribution to the world and, you know, their wish was to be anonymous. I think that should be, you know, respected. And I think whoever is Satoshi is an extreme danger once they, once it does get outed, if it ever does get outed. In terms of like the Olympics or the Hall of Fame of stories, like JFK is like up in there, the JFK assassination, who did it. And I think actually this story is on par with that.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Like the most, you use the word intoxicating. It's like these rabbit holes that like just kind of make you wonder. And you keep going back to them, you know, aliens, certain assassinations. And then there's there's this one. This like, it kind of keeps me up at night, to be honest. And I don't even give a shit about Bitcoin.

But I think that it's just like, I think that what it's rooted, in potentially how one person had such an impact and was so brilliant. I think that if you read American Kingpin about Ross Ulbrick, Ross had the same exact style where it was very romantic. It was very, I want to get behind you. Like it's us versus the world. Like we were on a path to greatness. Like this whole, that whole concept was Ross had the exact same thing. And even though he did a lot of really bad stuff, you kind of want to get behind it because you're like, yeah, that's just like that's just the price that we paid to be James Bond. Like we kill bad guys.

And so like this. Except Ross might have been a bad guy. He might have been the bad guy in this case. He was like like he did a lot. I think that like you could do good things and bad things. But I think he actually did. I think that he should be in jail for a long period of time because he tried to kill a bunch of people. It might be more breaking bad where you're rooting for Walt.

Even though you're like, wait, I think this guy is now a drug king pen who's killing people. But. Yeah. Or Tony Soprano. I still love this guy. I was like Tony Soprano. Like you. want to like Tony, but then you're like, dude, you suck. Like, you're a bad husband and you

kill people. Like that, like, just because you're funny, doesn't mean I should like you're an amazing person. Like, can I, can I make a one minute Bitcoin case right now? Are you back? I mean, my back. I've been here. No, you haven't been here. You, you, you, you, you, you, you haven't been here. Your interest has ebden flowed from the topic. Well, my interest has to have the focus. There's no new information, right? Like, uh, like, the conviction has an ebden flows. It's like how much new information is there. to pay attention to. It's in the same way.

But I'm not like, oh my God, the internet is amazing. I kind of know the internet. It's amazing. I made that decision a long time ago. And I just used it. You know, like I just, I'm in. I've been in. I've been.

Right. Versus when it first came out, it's like every new thing is new. It was a very exciting period. But yeah, what's your one minute? I mean, the one minute is this. From the beginning with Bitcoin, there's always been these like the big risk, the big question marks.

So once you sort of accept that there's merit to having a hard currency, meaning having a currency that doesn't get inflated. The way I look at is Bitcoin's a savings technology. So people think Bitcoin's going to make them rich. Actually, the true purpose of Bitcoin is a store value, meaning it's meant to keep you rich. So I don't know if you ever seen the charts of like, you know, if your great grandparent or whatever, 100 years ago had left you, you know, a million dollar fortune, it would be worth, you know, only 3% of what they left, right?

It would be worth 30 grand today. And so just in 100 years, 100 years in the United States, at the top of the top of the top of targeted inflation or the actual inflation, your money is going to be cut in half sort of every 30 years. Yeah, if you left it in cash. Correct, correct. Yeah. The currency itself, I'm saying. Like, if you just said, I feel safer just with the good old US dollar in the bank account. It's a bowl of ice cream that's melting by design. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because on average, roughly 3% a year, it gets devalued. So that's not a conspiracy theory. That is the target inflation is two or three percent. Sometimes it's higher like it's been. But like the goal,

for them is to inflate it 2 or 3% a year, which means by design, 2 or 3% a year means that in 30 years, you're going to have, whatever, half of what you wish you did. So one generation. Okay, so if you want you believe that there's merit to just like, well, I'd rather save,

it's like, I'd rather have a phone whose battery doesn't drain. I'd rather save my money in a currency that is not designed to inflate. And you might say, well, there's still a leap of faith, which is,

will this be a thing. Currency only matters if a bunch of people believe in it. Whatever. That's the only question. question is is Bitcoin even a currency of course I mean is it is the definition of a currency liquidity is it is it or not liquidity the ability to the like a lot of people spending it a better way of saying it is it's money so it's a money asset so it's a it's a form of money and it's a so more money has three jobs store value number one meaning

I have to believe that if I go out and I work hard every day and I get paid in this thing that this thing is going to be valuable tomorrow or the next day or the next. Yeah, it requires a collective buy-in. Correct. And that's the first stage. Then after it's already accepted by many people as valuable, like the way gold is accepted by many people is valuable, then it can be used as a medium of exchange. Meaning then I'm willing to trade it back and forth with people because I know they

believe it's valuable. I believe it's valuable. They're going to believe it's going to be valuable. They know that the next guy they want to spend with things is going to be valuable. So once we all buy into it's valuable, then it's usable after that as a medium-of-exchange. That part hasn't happened yet. And then the final stage is once we're all using as a medium exchange, we price things in it.

That's called the unit of account. So those are the three phases of something becoming a true, you know, useful currency. Today, Bitcoin is like, basically it's completing stage one where at this point, the whole world agrees that it's valuable, you know, the bulk of the world. And the majority has flipped to believe in that Bitcoin is valuable. Okay. You could see that in the price, $60,000. You can see that in who owns it, individuals, you know, wealthy, wealthy folks.

How many human beings own one Bitcoin or own some Bitcoin? I don't know the number of like active wallets now. And the hard part is one person can have multiple wallets. But it's like over 100 million for sure. It's like in the hundreds of millions of people. Okay. Well, then I think it's a stretch to say that it's a stretch to say everyone agrees that it's. What I mean is obviously not everybody.

So not eight billion people on earth own this. 8 billion people also don't own dollars, right? That's not, that's also not the case. but for hundreds of millions of people to have active, like have wallets with value in them is big. That's, I mean, that's a humongous number. So anyways, that's how the currency works. So the case for Bitcoin right now is over time,

there's always been two big risks. So the first risk is the government's just going to shut this down. Right. The smart guy case was, look, you might be right that this is better than gold. You might be right that it's more secure than gold. It's easier to transport than gold. that it's the more programmable money. Like, I get all that.

But look, the government's not going to go down without a fight. Their biggest stranglehold on power is that they own the guns and the money. You can't take one of their two big powers away, right? They'll still have the guns. But if they lose their ability to control the money supply, no government's going to allow that. And for a while, it looked like that. China tried to ban it. India tried to ban it.

But Bitcoin was pretty resilient. And now you have in this election, for example, both of the candidates are pro-crypto. Donald Trump is very pro-crypto. and Kamala is now realized it is now political suicide to be anti-Crypto, which is insane. It's crazy. It's crazy. They're both on the circuit. That's wild, right? Donald Trump is speaking at the Bitcoin conference. Kamala stopped saying she's going to kill crypto. Well, dude, I talk to our, we have a mutual friend who owns a crypto-related media business. And he was like, all these politicians want to talk to me now.

It's insane because they want to speak at our events. They want to do all this stuff. They need us now. They want to participate. They want to be. part of the conversation. And that's insane to me. I mean, at a good way, I think. But that's like wild

that these people want that. I mean, Trump has literally said in very Trump fashion, maybe we'll do bitcoins and that'll pay the debt. Right? He's like, maybe we'll just buy some bitcoins and that'll pay everything off. Like,

uh, kind of that, which by the way, honestly, if the US government quietly accumulated a stockpile and then put their faith in it after that, if they basically like, they would be able to pump and dump,

pump and dump basically Bitcoin themselves, or at least pump, even if they never wanted to dump, meaning it would be a very easy way for a legitimate country to get very wealthy by using its institutional power in the world to validate Bitcoin after they've created a stash. Anyways, but besides all that, the point is the government is now pro-crypto. They've now realized it is political suicide to be anti-crypto because there's too many Americans who have wealth.

It's like 40 million Americans who are actively on the like the petitions and all that shit to say like it's like a voter block. Right. And if you say we're going to either block this or ban this or. confiscate this, that means something to too many Americans. So now you can't politically be in a, we're going to shut down or kill crypto, but Bitcoin specifically. And so that's a huge thing that changed from like five, eight years ago.

And I feel like nobody's really giving that. Nobody's pricing that in properly. Nobody's giving that enough credit. That like one of the biggest risks that the U.S. government is never going to go for this. And now they're pro crypto. That's crazy. The second thing is, you know, there's all these clips of Jamie Diamond and BlackRock

and all these people just shitting on Bitcoin and calling it, you know, the dumbest thing, you're idiots, if you want to go lose your money, go do this. And now they're the biggest custodians and the biggest salesmen of Bitcoin. Dude, aren't they so full of shit, man? It's just funny how, I guess, I mean, everyone deserves the right to change their opinion

once they gather new information. But the consequences are very big. So here's the consequences of that, right? Like a week ago, BlackRock released this presentation that they're giving about why Bitcoin is better than gold. And it's literally the same slides that they're like crypto anarchists were using 10 years ago. It's like, here's Bitcoin compared to gold. Golds.

You can't carry it easily. You can't easily divide it. Gold's not actually that scarce. We can always find more. Bitcoin's actually a fixed supply. And so like all of the old arguments, they're now on a roadshow to wealthy people and to financial advisors. So they're basically training financial advisors and their clients that a healthy portfolio has one to five percent Bitcoin in it. And they're showing all these Monte Carlo simulation.

that like, hey, and if no matter we run this over the last, you know, 10 years, like some Bitcoin allocation, no matter when you entered, either whether it was peak or trough, whatever, has outperformed like the 80-20 stock bond portfolio mix and all these other things. So they're recommending it as now like the smart move, the wise move to do. And so they're on a roadshow because they make a bunch of money. It's their incentivized to do this because they make a bunch of money, right? It's the fastest growing ETF product in the world is Bitcoin. I think the Bitcoin ETFs are now like some insane number. And why do you need a Bitcoin ETF?

So the Bitcoin ETF is one of the other big counterpoints was this is too complicated. My mom, my dad is never going to go download a wallet off this thing and figure out their private key and they're going to be afraid to lose it. Okay, Coinbase, that's easier. But like they don't open up new accounts. They just invest out of their 401k or whatever. So the reason an ETF matters is now everybody who's got an account with whoever it is, Morgan Stanley or, you know, Fidelity or nationwide, whoever.

Dude, it's so funny. I just Googled crypto ETF or Bitcoin ETF and there's a website for Fidelity. It just says it's, it's an ad that Fidelity is running to get me to click on and it's about their crypto font on a Fidelity website. It's going to start to look like life insurance. It's so funny. It's going to look like a loving family, like hugging and embracing, be like our future is secure.

This is like, this is like Walmart buying the Supreme brand. Like, dude, come on. This is lame. Everybody is incentivized to do it, meaning the presidents are like, yo, if we're pro crypto, we unlock crypto donation dollars and this voting block.

So they're like, all right, politically, we're now incentivized to do this. BlackRock's like, yo, how much money can be made with this? Right?

There's 60, the ETF has had like $61 billion put into management, like in the last, like, you know, it's only been legal for like six months or so. It's pretty lame though, right?

They get a 1% fee of doing it. Then they sell this as a product as an upsell to people. Now anybody in their retirement accounts and their stock trader accounts can push one button and own Bitcoin without ever having to deal with custodian issues or the private keys or your wallet or losing your hard drive or any of that shit. And so yes, it's lame because it's not cool

anymore, meaning it's not cool and edgy and alt. But the whole point was like it goes to this adoption phase, right? And now it's going more mainstream. So I think what's my point is, I cannot believe, as somebody's been watching this thing for like probably at this point, literally 10 or 11 years, that now, like, it was unfathomable 10 years ago to be like, not only would Bitcoin be $60,000 a coin. That would have already blown my mind 10 years ago. But on top of that, the presidents are going to be using this in their campaign. They're going to say this is a good idea.

They're going to talk about having a little bit of on the nation's balance sheet. Corporations are going to own this thing. BlackRock and Larry Fink and Jamie Diamond, that's going to be their hero product. It's their hero skew now. And that you're just going to be able click a button and buy it as an ETF. Like all of that is unbelievable to me. and I feel like people all really have not grasped how once you do that, you can't unwind it.

So once everybody owns it in their ETFs or their retirement accounts, what are they going to do? It's too embedded in the system at that point. You can't rip it out. Its tentacles are too deep. Dude, listen to this. So this is kind of like indicative of where Bitcoin was going. It's kind of silly.

This is to the listener. I've mentioned I moved to a small town outside of New York City in Connecticut. And my town is very much what you would picture of Connecticut. Like the other day, I went to like this fancy Ralph Lauren store and they're like, where do you live? And they're like, and I was like, I live where these clothes were designed to be worn. Like where there's like literally polo fields at like my, like in my hood. And there's a rowing club next to my house. Like you're on the, I guess it's a river and you're like rowing like crew, which growing up in Missouri,

that's like the richest kid like yuppie bullshit ever. Right. But I was interested in it. And I go to this rowing club to like see if I could like sign up for like. lessons. And I see a Bitcoin book in the lobby of a row club. So a row club is basically just imagine a gym, but instead of like just weights, there's like areas to row, whatever. And I see a Bitcoin book. And I was like, wait, what the hell? Why is this Bitcoin book here? And then I start walking around and I see a case full of trophies of high school people who have graduated

from this row club, but did well in high school and won championships, whatever. And there's a picture of these two guys who are 18 and they're huge strapping looking dude. And they're huge strapping. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Why do you have a picture of the Winklevoss twins here? And they go, oh, their father owns this place. And when they were young and they were into rowing, he built this row club so they could kind of have a place to go to. And I was like, that's why you have the Bitcoin book?

They go, yeah, they like, I don't remember if they wrote the book or if it was written about them. And, you know, the father's proud. So he just has like their book in the lobby. And I was like, that is so funny. And so this row club is finally. by the Winkle Voss father, whatever,

and it's like, doesn't it seem like they would totally call their dad father? Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm going to demand that my kids call me father, because I feel like that's just like already like 25 prestige points in life.

Dude, I tell my little daughter whenever we FaceTime grandma, I go, that's your grandmother. Yeah, that's wild. That's so funny. You live the most preppy life now?

Yeah. You know what? embrace it. It's kind of fun, if I'm being honest. It's kind of fun. So I enjoy it. But dude, this Bitcoin stuff, I wouldn't say I'm not exactly a hater of it, but I love like poking holes in it because I think that's just a fun position to have with this whole conversation. But for this podcast, I want it to be back. I had so much fun hearing these stories. I think it's like the stories and the drama regarding this whole community and this thing is so cool, like all time great.

Like just some dork invented this shit, some nerd called a cyberpunk invented this thing. And now fidelity is like, you know, however many tens of thousands employees and like the most amount of money in the world is all like rallying around this. I think that is such an exciting story. There's yet to be a great movie around this. And I think it's too hard of a story to tell. There needs to be like only a couple storylines for this movie. But I'm really excited for something like that.

And frankly, I want to go and read more books on the topic because every book I've read about Bitcoin has been thrilling. Yeah, yeah. Well, it depends if you want the thriller or you want the theory, right? There's like, no, no, I don't want that. No, I just want like, tell me about somebody who like died or just sex, death and war. Like, you know, like rebels doing shit. That's what I want. Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

Then you might like this documentary. I don't know. We'll see. Actually, the best one of that is there's a. documentary about this business called Quadriga. Did you ever watch this one? No, what's that? It's the best murder mystery, crazy, like just insane, bat-shit crazy, scammy, like,

movie about crypto. Oh, is this the guy who died? Trust no one. The guy who died in India and they're like, dude, you faked your death. And like the Indian doctor, we already talked about it. The Indian doctor fake the autopsy. Well, they don't know. That's a theory, right?

So, yeah, it's called Trust No One, the Hunt for the Crypto King. That's probably the most, like, thriller version of a crypto movie that I've seen. Dude, I just watched this one about these kids from Long Island who, like, moved to Miami, and they came up with, like, some ICO scam, and they document this guy as he's telling his story. But coincidentally, he's also still on trial. So you get to see him, like, going through trial and then eventually getting acquitted. and we talked about this particular guy. He was posting pictures of his abs and his Ferrari on his Instagram.

And we're like, dude, if you have abs and perfect teeth and you're also in the crypto community, you can't be trusted. And like Floyd made weather and about these guys back to his shit. And we're like, this is a complete scam, but he still walked away with potentially tens of millions of dollars and got away with it. He didn't go to prison. And so did you see that one? I didn't see that one. No.

The kind of the ICO, you know, kids with Lambeau's version of it. I just hate them so much that it's such a turnoff. I can't bring much of watch it. But when it's like this kind of ideological rebel person who, you know, like more like Sandbaker's free. Like I need kind of like maybe evil, maybe genius. It's hard to say. Is it just misunderstood or actually is he just playing all of us?

Like that's really kind of the sweet spot for me with the crypto. crime stuff. Like crypto can basically have its own true crime like index, right? Because there's been so many, so many issues. I don't like the like 18 year old like TikTok TikTok,

TikTok NFT. Yeah, because that's just a straight scam. And that story is so easy. There's no art to that. Yeah. There's no. Yeah.

Like the Sandbakeman free thing is so interesting because not only is he like an enigma. And like it's like he looks the part, but then he did something crazy. But it's unclear why he, did it because he actually had a business that would have made him a billionaire many times over. That was like the scam with FTX wasn't that the demand and the customers were fake. The demand of the customers were real.

It's just that he took the customer money and gambled on it. You know, used it for crazy donations to build power and to put in his hedge fund to like run up the, run up the balance on that side. It was just an unnecessary risk. And so the fascinating thing about that one is like, why? Why did this guy even do that? He didn't need to do that. He won. He had the real win, and he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in that case.

How about if I told you three years ago when SBF was still, we still thought he was legit, that him and Diddy are in prison together. Like, is that the craziest turn of events? It's really insane. Like, Diddy and SBF are like. Have ever told the SBF, the FTX story with Milk Road what happened? how they advertised with you and they were late to pay? No, no, no, they weren't late to pay.

They, we used to do something called deep dives, which is basically like if one of the like sort of ad products was, if you pay us a ton of money, we will do a report on you. But the catch was we're going to do the report we actually want to do. Like you don't get to say what we say in the report. And with FTX, it's like a no-brainer. They're like the richest player.

And there was a bunch of good things to say. So it seemed like it was going to be a win-win. And so they do that, they pay us a bunch of money or they told us they're going to pay us a bunch of money. and then we go write the report. And in the report, you know, I'm trying to, this was, I think I was writing it myself or me and Ben were writing. I don't remember exactly what the case was.

But I was involved with it. And I remember we were thinking about, okay, like, what's the devil's advocate? Like, what doesn't smell right about this? Because you have to have the counterpoint. And not even just a rip on them, but having a counterpoint makes, acknowledging the counterpoint, honestly, makes the point stronger. So even if we were trying to say like a positive thing, which was that they were super fast growing,

and they had this really, like, you know, aggressive marketing strategy that was working, like all that shit. We're like, what's the counterpoint? And the counterpoint was like, the guy we had met who was like the chief security officer,

he was like 24 years old, or not security, a chief strategy officer who's 24 years old. And we're like, wow, that's so impressive. Like, how does this kid become like,

chief strategy officer of this like, at that time, it's like a $20 billion dollar company. Oh, yeah, I know exactly where the story's going. And so we were like, yeah, actually like a lot of the like,

execs are kind of like young, just like the friends. But okay, Facebook looked that way too early on. You know, okay, interesting. Maybe a good thing, maybe a bad thing. And then we're like, yeah, it's unclear the like connection between Alameda. They're like hedge fund and FTX. And so we wrote that in there. We're like, one thing that's not clear is like, what is the relationship between

these two parties and where is there, is there a firewall? And there's some speculation that like, you know, it wasn't that Alameda was just like, the FDX was just siphoning the money and giving it to Alameda and then Alameda was gambling and losing it. It was that Alameda had, you know, like insider info. They were front running. That's kind of what people thought. So we wrote that in there.

Like, hey, we need you to take that out. We're like, no, we're not going to take that out. And they're like, okay, then just hold on this. And we're like, cool, but you paid us already. So do you want to ever run this? And then they just never replied again. And we were like, okay, I think they paid us like half of the amount. Was it a large sum?

I mean, I don't know what it was. Not that large. Like in the grand scheme, it's not that large. But like, at the time for us, we were startup. It was like, you know, great to have revenue. And so that was awesome. And so I remember them just like checking in every few months, like, hey, do you, what?

Like, are you ready for us to release this yet or no? And they're like, no. I'm like, okay. Didn't think too much of it. Moved on with our life. And then sure enough that, hey, this connection is sort of unclear. And, you know, there's some potential issues. That turned out to be like, it's like, oh, no.

That's stage four. That turned out to be a very, very big problem, actually. And is SBF like in prison? How is he holding up? Is he still eating just peanut butter? And that his whole thing? that he only consumed peanut butter in prison because he's a vegan. He sent this to 25 years.

But I do think there was like there was, I think he sentenced to 25 years, but I don't think he's going to serve that whole time. I don't know how the whole system works. Well, no, if you get for federal crimes, you know, a lot of like a lot of people say like, oh, you got sentenced to 20. You're only going to do 10. Well, for federal crimes, I think the max amount it can ever get reduced is 10 or 15%.

I mean, maybe 10%. So if you get sentenced to 20, you're just serving 18. Something like that. It's like a fucking. a huge deal. Like, yeah, this is not like a, and I think the prison he's at is like, it's, it's, it's, it's big boy prison. Like this is not like particularly a fun thing.

Right. Like there's this like idea of like a white collar. I talk to a, I know a guy or a guy who's uncle got sentenced to a white collar crime and he served 18 years. And he was like, he told me he would visit his uncle and he was like, yeah. I mean, it was, when you say the word white collar crime, you kind of. of think like it's cushy and like it was kind of that but like it's prison like bad and bad stuff would happen and like you're confined all all the time like it's it's it's it's really bad and i don't

think sbf is is in that type of like prison anyway he's in like a real prison right like a prison where he's not built for that yeah do you have you ever watched this show the night of no what's that oh dude amazing show i think it's on showtime or hboh uh the night of it's just an awesome show and one of the things that I really liked about it is they showed almost like, they showed the actual legal system at work. And it's almost like painful to watch the whole legal and prison system

as the story plays out. But they don't fast forward. The way a lot of movies and shows do is they kind of fast forward. It's like there's the crime. And then there's like the courtroom where it's like one lawyer is giving one dramatic speech and the other lawyer is giving another dramatic speech. Whereas this one, it actually shows like the real deal,

holy field of, of, well, we have, the first hearing, okay, the appeal's going to be in three months and he's back to jail for three months and he's waiting, waiting, waiting, and just going through it and it's just extremely well made, an awesome show to watch. It takes forever. The stuff takes forever, which like kind of boggues my mind a little bit about why. And then you could push things for a long time. So you remember Elizabeth Holmes when she got in trouble, I think it was like many years after the actual stuff went down that trial actually happened. Well, she went on maternity leave from prison. Remember? She started having babies and she just had two babies back to back and kept pushing it off.

That's what happens when you wear Ralph Lauren and look like you live in Connecticut. You could take maternity leave from prison. I think that's what the perks. She took advantage of that privilege. We didn't mean to make this the Bitcoin episode, but an hour has flown by. Once you said the magic word, I was in. So I'm happy that it became that, to be honest. All right, that's it.

That's the problem. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. all in it like no days off on the road let's travel never looking back like