My First Million - Pieter Levels: Making $2.7M A Year With No Employees

Starting point is 00:00:08 Are you intimidated? Why are you? He said he took a run before this because he was nervous. No, because I've been on a lot of podcasts, but like they're usually kind of small. You know, it's like, I see you guys as like Joe Rogan for business. So it's like this one step above is like Joe Rogan. And then there's you guys. And then below is like, yeah, I don't want to diss all the podcasts I've been on there.

Starting point is 00:00:26 Amazing. But you know, like this is like a level. But it's good. You know, I'm big fans. It's a feeder levels. So and you also don't know what Sam might ask you because Sam might just come out of left field and be like. No, but that's the thing.

Starting point is 00:00:38 I was thinking like, Sam is like, it's not a regular interview. You know, he asked some crazy shit. So, wait, me, first of all, I don't know if that's true. I don't know if we, first of all, it's not just me. It's you too, Sean, that asked weird stuff. But also, I don't think we ask that weird questions. I think we ask the questions that everyone's thinking. No, that's true.

Starting point is 00:00:58 But I mean, you're not yes, man. Like, you know, there's yes man podcast where like they just, it's kind of like a fan thing. Obviously, that's not you guys. You have real shit, real questions. And I think it's more interesting as well. Can we, Sam, can we share the thing you were just telling us in Slack? Can I share that on here on the pod? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:01:14 Wait, which one? The Sam Parr strategy for networking. This is, you know, you can go to Harvard. You can go to Stanford. You're not going to learn this one. Sam has this habit where if, like, you know, it's a very small little tweak, but it's just so Sam that it just is awesome. So if you're, if Stan wants to hang out with you, he'll text you, just like a normal person would.

Starting point is 00:01:37 but, and he doesn't need to even know you. He's just like interested in you. Maybe it's a cold DM. Maybe it's a text message. Maybe he got your number from somebody else. Like, hey, it's Sam. You know, I'm in San Francisco. But instead of saying, want to hang, Sam will just go, I'm in San Francisco.

Starting point is 00:01:52 Let's fuck. Dude, he sent me some shit that I won't say out loud. But yeah. But I think it works. Yeah. So, Sam, what is this? And why does it work so well? It's like a phrase.

Starting point is 00:02:07 like, you know, like people will be like, you know, I fuck with that guy. Like, I fuck with Drake. I like Drake. It extends from that. And I just say it and people, uh, they reply. I don't know. I just, yeah, this particular one, it was a CEO of a multi-billion dollar company who I'm friendly with. I just said, what's up? I'm in your hood. Let's fuck. And he goes down, when? So like, it worked out. It's amazing. And now, so normally we try to play cool, but we've actually been chasing you, Peter. We've been, we've been talking about your projects. We've been being like, hey, we got to get this guy on the pod. Sam is a fan of you for sure. I would say I am less of a fan than Sam, but I am a, that doesn't mean I like you. It's just I'm more in the closet about it,

Starting point is 00:02:51 whereas Sam is very open. Sam's like, this guy's amazing. This guy's like an artist. Thanks, man. This guy's got great hair. And you do have great hair. So it's all true. And now we finally got you here. And it was hard, I think, right? Because you like don't do, you don't schedule. or something like that. Like, I mean, it, it looks like being an ass, right? I don't even know if you do that, but I, like you guys, I would get so many DMs and they're all like, I mean, generally they're very low quality DMs, right?

Starting point is 00:03:17 Like I want to collaborate, but I don't want to invest. I don't want to, like people want something from you. I think it's like being a hot girl in the club. Like people want something for you, but they don't want to invest the time to actually get to know you or you feel like an object. And I don't like to feel like that. And I want to spend more time with, you know, you know, like with my friends in real life, with my girlfriend or something.

Starting point is 00:03:39 I want to spend time in the gym, you know, on my health and cooking food and that kind of stuff. Go for walks. And I think because I've been doing this for 10 years, like start-ups like eight years, and now I get the money is going well, so I don't really need to do any calls anymore, any DMs. So I'm just trying to create a more chill life. And I'm not an asshole. It just means like I don't have time to reply to everybody.

Starting point is 00:04:03 So I closed my DMs and then people got really angry on tweets. They're like, why don't you, why you close your DMs? Are you arrogant and stuff? So I wrote a blog post like kind of explaining my day and my routine and what I do in the day and that I don't really have time if I do all the things I do now to also DM everybody and reply everybody and do calls and stuff. And that's pretty much the argument for it. And let's give the context.

Starting point is 00:04:25 So let's explain who the heck you are. So your name is Peter Lovellis. You're known on Twitter as Levels I.O. right yeah that's the uh that's the right way to say it i saw you a while back i'm just going to say some interesting things about you i believe now you can correct me if i have any of these wrong i believe you publish how much you make every year and in fact it's in your twitter bio in your location there's like a meter that's like your road to three million a year yeah and it says 2.7 million so your meter is almost all the way filled up um you build a bunch of random small

Starting point is 00:05:00 projects, usually around some things you like or believe or your lifestyle, which is kind of a nomadic lifestyle. So I believe, I think you, you hop around or you don't have like a home base. So you live, you know, you could be like in Bali and then you could be in the Netherlands. You could be a different place all the time. And you make these small websites or apps. And it says in your bio that you have 13 million monthly active users. And I remember seeing you because you did a community, like a nomad community.

Starting point is 00:05:30 a Slack community really early on. Like Slack had just come out. And I was like, oh, this guy's like charging 10 bucks of, I think it was 10 bucks a month or something to get into this thing. I was like, he's got like a thousand people here. Wow, this is actually,

Starting point is 00:05:42 this guy's making good money doing this. Like just by making a Slack group. You just do a bunch of small experiments like that. That's what I know. Sam, what did I mean? I'll give, Peter, let me give like the outsider's perspective. That's a little more holistic.

Starting point is 00:05:56 So basically there's two things that are interesting to you. The first one is your business. which actually are the least, the lesser of the two interesting things. So you have roughly five or, yeah, you have seven different businesses, ranging from Nomad List, which makes $2.1 million in the last 12 months. That's a, that's a job board. You have another job board called Remote Okay. That's making $150,000 a month.

Starting point is 00:06:20 You have read, make, which looks like it's like an ebook, something like that. Yeah, it's like a e-book, yeah. Yeah, 60K month. Then you have got like a bunch of really small. You're seeing these numbers because he publishes them. where do you publish these? He publishes all of them on like the URL. Go to his Twitter profile and we'll let you talk.

Starting point is 00:06:36 Sorry, Peter, in a second. Go to his Twitter profile. Go to his Twitter profile and then like click off and it's like open revenue at the very bottom. But I'm reading off of our notes. And then you have like a QR menu creator. Then you have like an inflation chart, which doesn't seem like it makes money but tracks inflation.

Starting point is 00:06:51 And then you have rebase, which is a platform to help people become a citizen of Portugal, help them relocate to Portugal. So the first part. is those businesses, like I said, you have those that are interesting. I would narrow it down to say you have a series of job boards for nomadic or remote work that are pretty profitable. But the second thing that's even more interesting is the way that you do these things. So you do a few things that are interesting. The first thing is I think you're the only full-time employee, right? And you use a team of contractors. And second of all, you have this weird personality that's very embedded in everything

Starting point is 00:07:25 you do. So that's kind of like my big intro of what you do. Does that actually? I actually. I I could see a website and I could know you built it without you having an about page, which is kind of the ultimate complicate. It looks a little. No, it's like, it's kind of an attitude. I guess. Yeah. It's got an attitude.

Starting point is 00:07:40 Yeah. No, I think it's accurate description. It's like, like I'm not very nomadic anymore. Like I'm slowly settling down, right? But I started very nomadically. I was like moving around every month. I started like in 2013. I started nomading and I went to all these places and I started building these apps.

Starting point is 00:08:00 these little websites, little products to validate. And I remember, I mean, I told the story so many times, but I was following Patrick McKenzie, Petio 11 on Hackernews. Famous Hackernus, a guy. And now he works for Stripe. And he would share his revenue on his blog about all his little products he made. And it was like appointment reminder for barbershops. So you got an SMS just before your appointment.

Starting point is 00:08:20 So you don't forget it. That kind of stuff. And I was really inspired like, okay, this is not like some big VC funded guy. This is just like an indie guy was just on his laptop kind of, building stuff. And I kind of mix that with the nomad thing where like building from your laptop, from your backpack, moving around. I think also getting inspired from different places. Because if you move around, you, I mean, I know Sam moves around a little bit as well. Your life becomes very unique because you meet different kinds of people. You're in different

Starting point is 00:08:49 kinds of places. You see different kinds of products like in shops. Like if you're in Asia, you see some futuristic shit you don't see in Europe and America. And all that stuff kind of, it helps for inspiration for creating products in some indirect ways as well. So that's pretty much what I've been doing. And I think it's, I've been trying to be like radically honest. Like I know this, this American guy who pushes the radical honesty movement. So I'm trying to do that in my personal life. I'm trying to do it on the internet. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to be as honest and open as possible. Because I don't like this fake corporate stuff. And it's because I started business administration and I have a master's degree in it. So I know all the management consultancy bullshit,

Starting point is 00:09:28 shit. I've been there, I've done that. I know this is where my friends work. I know investment bankers. And I hate that a lot of that world where it's like fake and not real. And I want to be very open and honest. And I think it's also a little bit of a European thing, not to slack off America. I love America. But like in Europe, people are very, a little more direct and a little more straightforward. And I think that comes across in my, in the stuff I do a little bit. So what's the total size of all your projects in terms of top line and bottom line revenue? And isn't it true that you're the only full-time person and how many contractors are you using? Yeah, so I have one customer support contractor part-time, Isabel, and she works for all my projects.

Starting point is 00:10:13 And I have a moderator for the Slack group because Slack groups, there's some drama in there. Like, I've had some crazy drama in these Slack groups in communities. So you need to have a moderator, you need to have rules, and you need to have a, you cannot just automate this. moderation away. Like I tried that. But you need a real person there to, you know, check on messages and stuff. And then I have a dev ops guy. He's my best friend, Daniel. And he works kind of like an SLA, like a service level agreement where if the server goes down, he gets a message. You know, if I'm sleeping with something, he brings it back up. But the problem is it never goes down anymore. Like it doesn't, we haven't really had that for a year. So he does security

Starting point is 00:10:53 updates and stuff, you know, like, because I have a VPS. I don't use Amazon. I use a VPS on DigitalOcean and Linode. And he kind of keeps that stuff safe, you know, so that's good. And how big is the business, top plan? Sorry, how big is the business? So RemoteK is the job board. It's the biggest business. It makes the most money.

Starting point is 00:11:11 No one of this is starting to grow, though. It's like it's past, I think, 100K this month, 100K a month. So almost like a million dollar business. Remote K is $1.6 million a year, I think. And rebase, it's a new business. It's an immigration agency. So I want to help remote workers immigrate to countries that want to attract remote workers with like, you know, beneficial tax stuff. Portugal is one of the first ones to do that.

Starting point is 00:11:36 So those are the three businesses really make money and the rest doesn't really make money a lot. Like the book makes like, I think like 4K a month. But everything you do is part of one flywheel. So I've looked at your kind of like system and I've looked at a bunch of people because I got into a little pickle where I was like, God, I'm doing so many things. things and I want to do all these things. I'm interested in all these things. But shit, you know, am I going to be able to juggle five different things? I got a podcast.

Starting point is 00:12:04 I have a VC fund. I have my e-commerce business. I have a newsletter business. I have, you know, I don't even know what else. Course business. I got another shit, right? And so it's like, am I going to be able to do this? And what I saw that you did, I have this kind of like mental model of a solopreneur.

Starting point is 00:12:22 And a solopreneur nobody's actually solo. Everybody's got like a little support team around them. that's like helpful some some in a big way some in a small way but basically it's like somebody who builds a personal brand and then builds a bit builds a successful business and lifestyle around that and what i noticed was that you had this formula which is i don't know if it's intentional or unintentional but i'll say it out loud because here's my my read of your business it's basically you have you starts with the red pill so a red pill is like you know that scene in the matrix where morphius is holding out a blue pill red pill he's like you know do you

Starting point is 00:12:54 want do you want the truth or do you want to you take the blue pill you blue pill, you could just go back to your normal life, just as everything was, you could forget this ever happen. And Neil's like, no, I need to know the truth. What's the truth? He takes the red pill. And basically it's like every great solopreneur I think starts with one truth. So like Tim Ferriss's truth was basically that like the nine to five work in a cubicle for 40 years model is like effing broken and you don't need to do it that way. Like you could work four hours a week and live like a millionaire. And so I was like Tim Ferriss's red pill. And yours was basically like this idea. of being a nomad, a digital nomad, which is like, hey, yeah, you don't have to, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:31 prescribe to the, subscribe to the normal way of living. You pick a place. That's where you are from. That's where you live. And you pay, you know, you just kind of stay where you grew up and like, and you go to an office every day and like, you have to wear shoes and whatever. You're like, no, I wear flip flops. I walk around on beaches. I just kind of go wherever I feel like, whenever I feel like, and I carry a little, like, backpack. And that's my life. Yeah. So you start with the red pill. Then you, Then you create content around that red pill. So as you talking about that lifestyle and sharing everything from like, hey, people always

Starting point is 00:14:03 ask what I put keeping my backpack for the day. Here's what it is. It's like every bit of content you can come up with that's like poppy. That's like fits that red pill. So then you become that big gives you authority on that subject. So you become like authority. And so, you know, pomp became an authority around Bitcoin and Tim Ferriss became an authority around life hacking and you've become an authority around nomadism.

Starting point is 00:14:26 And then you take that and then you basically spin off one of many businesses that can come up with it. But every one of those business, either it's a big moneymaker or it's just another funnel and more content, more new audience that's going to like get sucked into that same red pill lifestyle that you are like talking about. And so even though you're doing six things, they're all actually part of one flywheel. And everyone that you do is you're going to feed it either because it's going to give you a bunch of cash that lets you fund this lifestyle in a bigger and better way. or it's going to give you new content, new stories, new things to be known about that fit that lifestyle as well. That's how I see it. I'm curious. Is that a good?

Starting point is 00:15:05 Is that true? Yeah, I think it's really accurate. And my thing started when I was blogging, just like you said, I was blogging about like nomading. But I was blogging for my mom because back then you had like travel bloggers like 2013. And I was going to travel kind of a nomad. And I wanted to, you know, every place I went, I wrote a little, I was this city to live in and stuff. and what happened, all the crazy shit that happened to me. And my mom was reading that.

Starting point is 00:15:29 But I wrote it in English because my mom was obviously Dutch. But I was like, okay, she can read English so it's maybe easier to get more traffic and stuff, more audience. But it wasn't like super like a big idea. It just kind of happened. And then those blogs started showing up on Hacker News. And I started writing more about like bootstrapping startups as a nomad in Thailand or something or in Asia. And those started going on HackerNus really high. And I think that was the time.

Starting point is 00:15:50 It was like 2013, 2014. There was the time when I noticed that, the developers in San Francisco, worker for all the startups, they also were realizing, okay, maybe I can start doing this remotely because remote work was not cool back then and nomading was not cool back then

Starting point is 00:16:05 because you had the Tim Ferriss wave in 2008. It was like the first nomad wave. But there was, I love Tim Ferriss, but there was something about the followers there and the business that were created. They were kind of like, like shady. There was a lot of shady shit I met.

Starting point is 00:16:19 I came across in Asia in Thailand, like Americans and Europeans. It was like a lot of brain supplements. and shit like... Do it. Yes, yes, do it. Yeah. Drug dealers, online drug dealers

Starting point is 00:16:27 and like spam, daxing and like, there's still shady shit, but less. And I was like, I really hate this shady shit. I don't feel like part of this scene. I think it would be cool to make it more like, you know, mainstream, like reputable businesses, reputable jobs that do it. So I kept blogging about it and it kept taking off on Hacker News.

Starting point is 00:16:46 And you're right. I think, and then I went on Twitter and I think I kind of organically, people started following me. And then a lot of people, when nomad, all of my friends went nomad because I was blogging and they became my friends now. And yeah, and then I started all those businesses. And, but I think it's, it's not like some, it sounds very like a constructive. It's not a master plan. No, it's not a master plan. It's very organic. Like, uh, I kind of try, I'm like user zero. I try to build stuff for myself. And I always

Starting point is 00:17:14 have like, I have like new ideas. Like, there's just like you said, Redpill. There's like something there's a discongerance in society and what I'm thinking. And most people then think like, okay, there must be someone wrong with me. But I think, like, arrogant, I think there must be someone wrong with society. Maybe this is like a new thing. So I'll try and make a little website about it. Like inflation, like three years ago or two years ago, I was tweeting about inflation. Like, this shit's going to go crazy with all the fat printing money.

Starting point is 00:17:40 And everyone's like, nah, inflation is fine. Stop whining about it. I'm like, no, I'll just prove you that the real inflation numbers are higher. So I made this inflation chart.com website that shows the inflation numbers are really high. It turned out to be true kind of now. So yeah, that's great. What technology are you using to build those sites? Because they all do look alike and you seem like you can spin them up like really quickly.

Starting point is 00:18:04 Well, that's really funny because I get a lot of criticism for the technology I use. I use PHP because that's the language I knew because I was making a blog, right? Like WordPress. So I knew PHP a little bit. So I was like, okay, I just need to write with the language I know because I don't know on other languages. And I did that. And then I use JavaScript and I use jQuery. So everybody starts laughing.

Starting point is 00:18:22 because jQuery is like way passeh. But I still use it because it's so easy to, you know, make a button, bind an event to it, AjaxGy to the server, to the PHP script, does something with the database, sends it back. And it works for me really well. And I think it doesn't matter what you use, but as long as you use something that's really fast, feedback loop and iterative loop where you can really quickly develop,

Starting point is 00:18:45 like I can make a new button in like, you know, 20 seconds and deploy it to the server. And it's really fast. And I know other developer friends of mine use, a very big stack, all those, you know, Kubernetes and all the stuff, all these keywords I don't really know. And for them, it takes sometimes like, you know, an hour or maybe even days to deploy a new feature. And I think what we learned from startup and lean startup is that the customer feedback loop has to be very, the feedback loop has to be very fast, iterative so you can really

Starting point is 00:19:12 quickly change stuff. And it also makes your customers really happy because they see something, they have a problem or a feature idea. You can really quickly build it. And then they see it. I mean, if you want happy customers, that's how you get it. You make something for them. They're like, oh, my God, I influence this product. And yeah, so that works for me. So very, very simple stack. Well, we won't laugh at you because, not because we're nice.

Starting point is 00:19:36 We just, we don't know anything about, I don't know what JQuery is. Neither to Samson. I mean, nobody these days knows J-Q-R-any. You're safe here. We're too dumb to call you out on any of your technical choices. Nice, nice. It's a good podcast. What do you, what do you think, what do you think this whole?

Starting point is 00:19:52 whole, your whole thing's worth. Because if you go, okay, so it depends if you do 5X. Sorry. Sean, go to his, like,

Starting point is 00:19:59 sites and you could see like, it's like something slash open. It's usually like the website slash open. And then like it says like so many stats, most of which honestly are kind of useless, but it's just like it's cool. It's like, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:11 like how many, 70% of them are like, you know, the equivalent of like a step counter. It's like, oh, how many DMs did I get today? How many,

Starting point is 00:20:20 uh, no, I don't have that. No, you do. But it's collective. It's like DM sends, you know, it's collective events. Yeah. But like, okay, for example, I'm on nomadlist.com, which you said is, I think, your biggest one slash open.

Starting point is 00:20:31 And on it, you see the revenue chart. You see, you know, CO2 removed from the atmosphere. You see the full P&L. You see a bunch of other things. And one of them that you see is my, okay, so 73% profit margin. Your team says 0.78. So I guess that's like part-time. Yeah, like full-time equivalent, like FTE.

Starting point is 00:20:50 And then plus four. 492 bots. What is that? Service. Yeah. Yeah. So on the server, he has a valuation too.

Starting point is 00:20:59 He is, if you sold for like, whatever the multiple is. 30x profit. If it was 30x profit, this would be 17 million. So I try to take the P. I mean,

Starting point is 00:21:09 it's not super accurate. I did business, but it's the P.E. ratio of public companies that are similar in the industry and I try to like sync it to that sometimes. But, dude,

Starting point is 00:21:17 it completely depends on the multiples that someone's going to pay for it, right? Like, have you sold? are extremely low, no, I've sold nothing. But I've been in selling processes with previous guests on your podcasts. You know, so, but it kind of bounced off.

Starting point is 00:21:32 I'm just, I'm just going to guess it was Andrew Wilkinson because he loves. Andrew Schmockinson. Yeah, because he loves job boards. That's just a guess. I can't say anything. But 80% I signed any, 80% of the acquisitions, they bounce off, right? So right now I'm like, I don't really care. I like that I have cash flow and my life is not.

Starting point is 00:21:51 and but I until recently I was really like until like a few years ago I was like obsessed by this selling because you build a startup like in a movie like social well not the movie social network but in the big movies about startups they're like oh my god grow big and sell and you're millionaire but then if you become millionaire yourself with your cash flow you're like okay why does it matter actually well let's actually talk about that because what's interesting about you is you have a few that you could sell so like remote okay and nomad list are both pretty cool have you calculated like how much money you want and how long it's going to take you to get there via cash flow. And if it's better to

Starting point is 00:22:26 like, well, why don't I just sell one and I can get like an $8 or $10 million lump sum? But then I still own this other one that's making like $3 million. I mean, have you thought of? Have you done that math? And what have you? The thing is most of my revenue is profit. Like the margins are really high, especially remote okay. It's like 94% margin pretext. So it's very high. So I'd say 10x after 10x gets interesting. I think the problems with bootstrap companies, you usually get three, four, five, X, uh, profit or revenue north sure, which is too low for me. It's like, I can, I might as well wait three years or four years and sit in this chair and the sites will probably keep running because they're fully automated and I barely need to work on them. They kind of just keep going. It's like

Starting point is 00:23:05 heavily automated, like really heavy, heavy. Uh, it's just that I won't build new features anymore then and the site will start looking a little bit old because, you know, design trends change, but generally it will keep running. So it doesn't make sense for me. It doesn't make sense for to sell for, you know, 5x or 4x if I might as well wait. And also, like, no one, this is like my baby. So if I sell it, uh, they're going to fuck it up. I already know, because they always do. Um, like, let's say a big, a big remote startup buys it. Okay, I know V-C funder remote startups are cool, but they're also going to be bought by big, boring companies later, like corporate companies, right? Um, and they're going to shut this shit down.

Starting point is 00:23:43 They're like, and this is my contribution. This is my life's work. It's like legacy. So, Remote decay, I care less because it's a job board. Job board is not very interesting. But normally this is like this whole movement and culture. And there's like tens of thousands of people on there. And my friends are on there. And it's like this work of love, you know. And so yeah, it's hard.

Starting point is 00:24:04 It would be hard to sell that because people are going to fuck it up. Are you the largest? Go ahead, Sean. Well, one thing I was going to say, you tweeted out something that said a 10-year overnight success, which I think is a common idea that most people don't realize, which is, by the time you hear about something, you don't know the 10 years of kind of toiling and tweaking and iterating

Starting point is 00:24:23 that it took before the big kind of breakthroughs happen. My life was the same way. You know, I started my first startup when I was 20, 21, and I made my first million by the time I was 30 or 31, right? Like it was, it took 10 years. And, you know, and then every year since then, a bunch of great stuff has happened, but like it took a long time to get that breakthrough.

Starting point is 00:24:44 And I was looking at your chart, Sam, I don't know if you saw this tweet that he has, but the chart basically shows, I think you start in... It's like the sum of all my revenue together in one chart, yeah. Yeah, it's all your revenue from all your projects all together in one chart. And it's looking like it's like, I don't know, a 2012 or 2013 start. And basically, if I go all the way up until, let's call it, 2019, you're at maybe 600, 700K per year in revenue. And only in the last, like kind of the pandemic boom, like, you know, let's say 2020.

Starting point is 00:25:16 from 2020 you went from under a million dollars to 2.5 million a year, right? So you two and a half X, and you like, it's because it sounds amazing. Wow, this dude's making almost three million a year. It's like, yeah, but he's also been building that momentum and stacking these assets. And it just really took off and at which I'm guessing is like pandemic fueled a lot of people wanting to be nomads. And like you were there to catch that wave. You were the guy ready to catch the wave at that time. Yeah, but I had no idea this was coming.

Starting point is 00:25:42 Like, this was like I did this presentation in 2015, where, I predicted there would be one billion remote workers in 2030. And everybody laughed at me. And I was like, even in the comments, like YouTube comments were like, this is ridiculous, whereas your sources is bullshit. And then COVID happened. And it suddenly seems very reasonable. And nobody could have seen this coming. And I had no idea.

Starting point is 00:26:02 I was actually kind of like thinking like in COVID or what? Exactly. With Fauci. But it kind of like, if you look at the chart, it's kind of like, you know, it doesn't really go anywhere. And I was like thinking, okay, this is bullshit. Like I tried, I tried everything to make it grow. And sometimes it grew and sometimes it didn't. But generally, it wasn't very, it wasn't like a VC start.

Starting point is 00:26:24 Right. Like, well, it looks like there's these, there's these runups and then a plateau and run up in a plateau, which is, by the way, that's how all progress actually looks if you zoom out. Exactly. And I remember that like during 2014, when I first moved to Silicon Valley, there was a small group of people like you, this is, I think, when you created that first Slack community that was like, no, being a nomad is the way to go. And I have led to Indonesia.

Starting point is 00:26:48 You know, they were, they were seen as very weird. 100%. 100%. Yes. And, but there were some people who took the red pill at that time. I think Steph Smith, who worked with a household. She met you in, I don't know, Indonesia or something like that because she had, I think, probably during that, more like that time period, 2014, 15, 16, something like that,

Starting point is 00:27:10 she was one of those people that defected then, whereas now there's like another wave. And like if you look at kind of like any lifestyle movement, it happens this way. It starts with like very, I could take crypto. It starts with the cyphor punks. Exactly. You're right. Yes. They hang out in cryptography forums and they took the pill first.

Starting point is 00:27:27 Yeah. And then came, you know, the next, the developers, then came the finance bros. And then it's the same with the next way. Like music, like music genres, like hip-hop, like early hip-hop. And I come from electronic music. So drama-based music was my previous career, like music producer. It's the same thing. like EDM taking off in the US in 2009, 2010 with Dupstep.

Starting point is 00:27:46 That's what broke EDM in US. That kind of stuff. These movements, these scenes are almost dead. And then suddenly something happens is like, and it's so unpredictable. You have no clue what's going on. You can only surf it. So I think the metaphor of surfing is very accurate.

Starting point is 00:28:03 It's better to serve these waves in general. I think life, just surf waves. Stop trying to control it. Just surf it. And kind of like, you know, pivoting startups into that's pretty much just serving like steering the surfboard over the waves because you cannot control the market at all.

Starting point is 00:28:18 You cannot control society at all, you know? One of the things that bothers me about this indie hacker movement is, well, I really, I really like it. I like it, but in general, what I don't like about it is like people think pretty small, so they're like, you know, like, there's, it's kind of related to like the fire movement, which is like, oh, I just want to save a little bit of money

Starting point is 00:28:40 so I can make $40,000 a year in passive income. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. Like, getting your first step is cool. But, like, that can't be it with life. Like, you have to, like, you know, you're going to want more. You want to do more things and contribute to society. And with a lot of these indie hackers, they kind of come up with silly stuff where it's like a small widget that they sell for $4 a month and they hope that they

Starting point is 00:29:00 can get to $1,000 a month. And I'm like, man, that's like neat if you're just starting out. But I think that this could be bigger. And you're actually one of the few people that I've seen go harder. You know, you're going harder on this. Are there any others like you? How do you think I'm going harder on it? Like in which way?

Starting point is 00:29:15 Well, your numbers are bigger. Like it's substantial. Like your numbers are nice already. It could be very clear that it. But it could be survivorship bias, right? Well, yeah, definitely. But I still think that there's a mindset of like, like, for example,

Starting point is 00:29:31 your Twitter bio thing says your meter is going to three million. I would say most people who are indie hackers and makers and kind of like the sort of tinkerer community, they don't even have their meter to there. Their meter, you know, initially is going to start much lower, 60,000 or 70,000 a year. And maybe yours did too. But then you like, oh, cool, I filled up that meter. I leveled it up. So what was your like initial goal? Was it like make enough to not need a job or where did you start? When did you get more ambitious? So I mean, back when I started, I had a YouTube channel for this electronic music. I was making

Starting point is 00:30:05 and they was making like a few thousand dollars from YouTube AdSense. So I had some runway. some cash flow to live off, travel off and work on mini startups. But it was very fast. It was shrinking because of the competitive, like the copyright claims on YouTube in 2012 and stuff. So it was pretty much becoming like below $1,000 a month. But so I had that cash flow. But to go to your question, I think it's a power law. Like you always have a few people in a scene who will make more money or get more successful and stuff.

Starting point is 00:30:37 Also, there's a delay effect. I started in 2013 or 2014. All these indie, this indie scene didn't really, it wasn't cool until maybe, I think, 2018 or something, 2017. So these people that are going into it now, they're just starting kind of. And I think the widget thing is interesting because you said it's only a widget. If you make one feature really well that solves like one problem, you can get some customers and you get some cash flow and then you can build a second feature. And you can slowly scale up to a bigger, to a real business, to real product toolkit, right? And then I think another thing is you don't see a lot of people with multi-million revenue

Starting point is 00:31:15 because they will quickly raise VC. Like once you pass a million dollars a year, they will switch to, okay, let's go big, let's go become a billion-dollar company. And I think I'm the exception. I'm like, I don't want to be a billion-dollar company. I'm fine like this, kind of chill. And that's why you don't see those people a lot. Because I do know them and they quickly disappear.

Starting point is 00:31:34 Like this app we're using now, Riverside, I think is raised VC now, started bootstrapped. and then I think Oprah Winfrey use it. Because it's my friend Nandov, he makes it. He's like, dude, Oprah Winfrey used. I'm like, oh my God, this is crazy. He's like, yeah, I think I'm going to raise VC. I'm like, okay, yeah, you should do that. Because they think this is like this could be bigger than just a few million, right?

Starting point is 00:31:55 So you tweeted something out the other day that's related to this. You go, not sure if people realize it, but if your app does $20,000 a month on revenue, you're probably already a millionaire. $20,000 per month times 12 months, assume you could sell for, let's call it, four or five X multiple. Yeah. That's a million dollar selling price, right? You're sitting on a million dollar asset.

Starting point is 00:32:15 And when you put it that way, I think that sounds, and it is, way more achievable than this idea of like, I got to build a million dollar business. Like, I don't know. I don't, do I have the big idea, whatever? But getting something to 20 to 30,000 a month in revenue. It seems approachable, right? It's approachable. And that's kind of awesome.

Starting point is 00:32:34 I think that's an amazing, like, just a, like you didn't, all you did is you said something that was true out loud. And I think if more people heard that, that's why I'm kind of bringing it up here. I think if more people heard that, that is a pathway to a millionaire status that does not require like winning the startup lottery of like infecting the next big thing or working and saving and, you know, paying your crazy W2 taxes for like, you know, 15, 20 years to get the same outcome. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And I think it's reachable, especially if you think about high automation, very high margins. So software business, you're not going to hire a big team of 10 people immediately. You work with part-time contracts like I do, and you keep your margins

Starting point is 00:33:20 very, very high because then you can sell for 5x, right? Then your revenue is almost your profit. So it's the same. Yeah, I think 20K is approach. Let's brainstorm a business together that could get to 20K. So what's an idea that you, you're not currently building, but you thought of, because I'm sure you're an idea guy and you think, oh, you can make a website that does X or you could make nomad list for this other niche or you could make, you know, the immigration one for this other thing. So what's a business, let's brainstorm a business together. What's a business that you think could get somebody to this millionaire status? Dude, I think what's, man, it's like, again, this is so personal.

Starting point is 00:33:56 So I've been living, like I used to live in hostels, right, like dorms in 2013, but they didn't have money shared with six people, like crazy. Then I started like private rooms in hotels, then the rooms got a little bit more luxurious because I had more money. And then I started discovering like apartment hotels. And it sounds like bullshit, but it works so well with remote work. So I mean, an apartment hotel right now in Europe, on the beach. And there's a kitchen. What's an apartment hotel?

Starting point is 00:34:22 What does that mean? Sorry. Apartment hotel is essentially a hotel. So full serviced, furnished, a nice interior hotel room. But you also have a kitchen. You have a bedroom. You have a living room. You have it, you know, it's very big.

Starting point is 00:34:34 It's pretty much like an Airbnb, but you pay per month or per night or what? You pay per month. No, you can pay per night. You can pay per month. It's just like, Sean, it's like that guy who, yeah, it's like Sonder and it's like all, I forget the other one. The guy was supposed to come up on the pot and canceled that. Sam, you did one of these in Nashville, right, or something where you're like, this is awesome. It's like a lobby where everyone's working. Yeah, it's like a, it's basically just an apartment that you can rent for five days. And they're pretty cool. I do, I do them all the time. The problem that I've experienced is in the New York, it's like, 10 grand a month and it's like 600 square feet. So that's why I tend to go Airbnb. But I'm in smaller, less expensive cities, you can get like a thousand square foot plays for like

Starting point is 00:35:12 6,000 a month. And it's just, it's basically an apartment building that has one floor or all floors dedicated to Airbnb's. Yeah. The problem of Airbnb is that I've noticed is the quality is very very high. There's a big range of quality. And there's problems. There's no daily cleaning. it feels too much like you don't know what's going to happen. The water stuff might break. If things break here, you just get a new apartment,

Starting point is 00:35:42 right? And I've done this in Europe and I've done this in Asia too in Thailand. And I spend about usually two to three K, three and a half K. So it's a lot of money. It's more than normal rent. But the cool thing is that it solves a lot of problems

Starting point is 00:35:54 you have in your daily life because it's surfaced and stuff. And it's a huge thing in Asia. It's a used thing in Southeast Asia, even in Korea, Taiwan and stuff. So I think that's going to be bigger because of remote work, because you have remote workers, even with families, with kids, and you don't want to live in a hotel room. Hotel room is very depressing. Like, I go insane in hotel rooms.

Starting point is 00:36:16 It's just like a bed. And you can barely walk around the bed. There's no space. I need to cook food. I need to buy steak from the local butcher. I need to cook it with broccoli and spinach and with my friends and stuff. And you can do it in an apartment hotel. And I think the, if you talk.

Starting point is 00:36:31 It's a high-end market, I think, of remote workers and make a lot of money, like 200K or 100K something. If you target them, you can make a lot of money because it's serviced, furnished. So what would you build? Do you actually build an apartment hotel or you'd build a digital product? That's a big question because I'm a software guy. I don't want to own stuff. I don't want to have all this. I don't even want to buy land.

Starting point is 00:36:53 I don't even want to buy a house. I want to be able to be a customer of these kind of things, right? But I want a long term. I want to be able to rent for like six months. or 12 months even. I want to be guaranteed to stay. So we, my wife and I are like, we're at the point where we're going to start having kids soon.

Starting point is 00:37:10 And I live not like you entirely, but a little bit where we spend, we spend half the year one place, half a year at the other place. And what we're going to do next year is just rent, do a 12 month lease in New York and just not be there all the time.

Starting point is 00:37:24 But I'm looking to rent all of my furniture. And I've been looking at a place where I was like, all right, this one place. And I want to pay someone like three grand a month, but they have to show up before I arrive. They've got to completely set it up. Yes. And it's got to be 100% furnished for me. And I've been looking at these. And there's a few startups in the space that are doing furniture rental. And furniture rental is not popular right now. And I tell people all the time, I'm like, I just want to rent all my furniture. I don't want to own any of it. And they think it's

Starting point is 00:37:53 nonsense. And they think it's crazy. But if you run the math, it's significantly like it's about the same in terms of price, but in terms of headache, I think it's a thousand times better. And I think that's another, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all about the headaches. So if you can afford it, you can reduce the headaches of ownership. And ownership, uh, it sounds so privileged though, but whatever.

Starting point is 00:38:17 Ownership is a big hassle. Shit breaks all the time. And if you are like, if I spend my time on my laptop building on these apps, it's probably better use of my time than managing all this, this stuff. And if a company can specialize in, you know, managing this stuff and renting it to you, it's much better. I think there's a real, you're on point. That's a real business. And imagine you can go to a website.

Starting point is 00:38:39 You can say like, okay, you can choose different sets of furniture, different interior and stuff, paintings on the wall or whatever. And you can just click and you arrive and it's already done for you. Like you said, I think that would be really interesting. Yeah. What else interest you? Yeah, things that you're interested in either kind of niche categories or things in your lifestyle that you're like, I do this lifestyle thing differently than people.

Starting point is 00:39:02 This could be, you could build a business around this. I think the biggest problem with the digital nomad thing is that there's a, maybe it's a good big podcast to say that there's a perception that people travel really fast. And I have the data that they don't travel fast. They travel like every few months or even, I think the average is seven months now. It's very slow. So the word digital nomad is a horrible word. Of course, it has so many connotations.

Starting point is 00:39:26 But it's mostly remote working people who want. want a little bit of a different life, we want to see different places a little bit. They have boyfriends, girlfriends, wives, husbands. They have kids even, there's families doing this as well. Moving around every week doesn't really work. Being very slow is big. And if people are more aware of that, they can find a lot of products built for this long-term slow-mat market, which most of us are. We're mostly slow mats. And also slow-mads, yeah. Think about education. Think about like homeschooling is taken off also because of remote work.

Starting point is 00:39:58 If I have kids, I don't know if I want to put them in a regular school. Maybe, you know, Elon Musk builds his own school. That's kind of cool. But you can do things in a different way. And like now it's still very, we're still niche. Like this remote work thing is still niche. It's going to get only bigger. There's only going to be more and more people doing this once physical jobs get automated.

Starting point is 00:40:16 So if you make products, I don't know specific product, but if you know, if you build products for those people, that's a high end market of like tech workers that are remote. So if you don't buy, use. said that you don't own stuff or you kind of said like you don't like owning stuff you said that you said that you don't want to own real estate so if you're making two and a half million dollars a year in profit this is a question that Sean always asks that I'm stealing it which is what do you do with your money then yeah so I'm heavy in ETFs um I read a blog post by what's his name the guy from Google that does SEO and he's like I just put everything in ETFs so Vanguard ETFs SMP 500

Starting point is 00:40:58 but also I'm heavily invested in Asia because I believe in Asia. I believe in the future. I know the West, there's a lot of things about Asia that are good, but it's very, still things very futuristic. And I also invest in crypto, like I hold Bitcoin and Ethereum. It's always scared to say those things on the podcast, right? But it's all like very secure and stuff. It's not exactly the most shocking thing to assume that you own some crypto.

Starting point is 00:41:22 Every tech guy. Every tech bro is crypto. Yeah, exactly. But I mostly, you're actually not allowed to have that haircut. if you don't own like three. You can't have a high phase with like long top hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you don't own 3E.

Starting point is 00:41:36 I spend about like 4, 5K in mom for something. That's it. So most of it is just, I do need to pay tax. But after that, most of it goes to, you know, ETFs and stuff. It's scary to invest now because it's a scary time. But generally, I'm like, I want to do this for 20, 30 years in the ETF, invested and stuff.

Starting point is 00:41:50 And sometimes stocks, but I did a benchmark. My SMP 500 ETF outperformed all my stock decisions over the, last two years. So I'm stupid just like most people. Sean, you want to tell them what you did recently? What? Oh, selling? With your stocks? Yeah. I sold not everything, but pretty much everything. It's sold maybe 70, 80% of the

Starting point is 00:42:13 stocks that I hold. I get that. I mean, yeah, but I'm scared. They always say like, don't try and time the market. So I'm like, okay, I'll just sit and just crash with the, you know, Sean, why didn't you do that? Why don't you just like chill? Uh, two reasons. One, I didn't want to risk a margin call because I borrowed a little bit against my stock portfolio, but, and, you know, to what I felt was extremely safe. And it's still safe, but I was like, uh, look, if this drops another, you know, 20 percent, then all of a sudden, I'm having a headache that I don't want to deal with. I don't want to have to deal with freeing up a bunch of cash just to buffer this. So I was like, I noticed that every morning I was waking up

Starting point is 00:42:53 and I was checking it. And I was like, okay, logically I know I'm in pretty good shape here. but the stress of having to think about this is taking away from my like you know my day-to-day quality of life it's like that's the opposite of what i want money to do i don't want money to give me stress my money is supposed to take away my stress so what did you do with the money opposite what did you do with it where is it it's just it's in cash right now um like i might do some like whatever some short-term you know fixed incomes type stuff but like for now i was like again i don't care like i don't need the two percent i needed the peace of mind and so that was the first thing the second thing was I thought, what will I regret more?

Starting point is 00:43:29 What do I believe more? Do I believe that this is the bottom? Or do I believe that this is kind of like actually thinking that this is the bottom, you know, six months in and that it's all going to get better soon? But basically like there's three paths. Either it gets better now. It stays. This is about the bottom, but we stay here for an extended period of time, one, two,

Starting point is 00:43:51 three, four years. Or it has further down to go. And I basically thought that it getting things going up. up soon seemed like the least likely thing. Like I would, I would actually be betting against that heavily. And so I thought, okay,

Starting point is 00:44:05 I have nothing to lose here in terms of upside because I just fundamentally don't think that stocks and everything is just going to go rip back up again. And we're all going to pretend like, you know, that was it. We just had a few months of pain. And then it all went right back up. And remember things go. Things are all green again.

Starting point is 00:44:20 And so I thought either it's going to be flats, boring and sideways for a period of time, or it's going to go down more. And I thought, well, in either case that I won't regret being in cash because, A, I don't have to sweat it every day. I don't have to think about it every day. And B, I'm not losing anything by doing this. And so that was my thought process.

Starting point is 00:44:41 And I figured, okay, there's going to be these little bear market rallies. So just sell at the top of the next bar. So that's what I did. Everything rallied 5%. I just sold. And I kept like, I don't know, 20% still in the market. And I just left the other 80% in, and, you know, not thinking about it cash. but I held my crypto.

Starting point is 00:44:58 I didn't sell my crypto. That's good, yeah. Are you guys mostly invested in the American stock market or worldwide? Yeah, like you said, I believe in Asia. I'm like, yeah, I believe in Asia too, but I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. How do I go invest in Asia and where would I invest? I don't even know. What does that mean?

Starting point is 00:45:13 Are you buying the equivalent of like an ETF for like Japan or something? What are you doing? Dude, I had a Vanguard ETF China and then suddenly disappeared from my broker app and I'm like, what the fuck's happening? And I get this message, they're like, Vanguard left China in March or something. because they were like, this is too crazy to buy a different ETF. I don't know this.

Starting point is 00:45:30 The government did some shit. Yeah. No, for sure. They did some shit. They made private companies public or something. Yeah, no, they fuck Jack Ma for sure. There's a lot of weird shit happening. But I still think I should be invested in those markets.

Starting point is 00:45:44 Sam, have I told you about the Jack Ma thing? How it's crazy that the third richest man in the world, they were trying to was like, hey, Jack, shut up. And he's like, yes, sir. They just took Jack off line. My brother-in-law calls me. So we had one moment where like a month in when people started noticing Jack Ma's missing. And my brother-in-law in the car one day was just like, where's Jack Ma?

Starting point is 00:46:09 Like he was in the car, but he's like, bro, why aren't we talking about this? He's like, where's Jack Ma? And we just started laughing. Like, how crazy is that? That Jack Ma is just not like, what if you just couldn't find Elon Musk because he said something, you know, that Biden didn't like? That idea is crazy. They did it with a tennis player, too. Yeah, I saw that.

Starting point is 00:46:28 My brother-in-law still calls me. He'll be like, he'll just call me out of the blue. It's been like a year now. He'll be like, you know, where's Jack Ma? And he'll hang up. And like, that's the whole call. That's so good. He just be like, yelling, where is Jack Ma?

Starting point is 00:46:40 But dude, that's the thing with Asia and China. Like, all this stuff is accurate. There's some crazy shit. But the other thing is also accurate that there's, there's the love of happening in Asia. And I think in the West, in Europe and America, we have a blind spot because we get so much information that's negative about Asia, especially about China. And I'm not a China spy or something. My friends call me China spy because of that.

Starting point is 00:47:02 But I think it's a blind spot a little bit in the West. We're going to miss out on, you know, China's going to be the biggest economy in 2030. I think by GDP, it's already the biggest economy, by purchasing power parity or something. Ignoring that, just, you know, because there's a lot of arguments why we should ignore China. But it sounds like a blind spot in the West a little bit to me.

Starting point is 00:47:24 do you uh what well i'll do it we'll do an easy one do you like tweeted out your calendar and it was like free for a week or something like that and i know sean does that too and i i i kind of like that sometimes i don't like that because i'll do that for three days and i'm like oh my god i'm so bored

Starting point is 00:47:43 it are you is it real that you just don't plan anything yeah so this is the only plan thing and it gives me stress because i'm like oh shit there's someone's coming up um But I mostly, like I spend my days, like I live in my friends. So my friends are my neighbors now. So I brought all these nomads friends to Portugal and Europe and we kind of live together. A lot of them are in the city near here, whatever. Everybody's kind of near.

Starting point is 00:48:05 So we just have like dinners outside and we cook food and the sunset on the beach and just this nice, chill life that I never had. Because I was always alone in hotel rooms. I had friends, but they were always around the world. And now they're all kind of here. So I mostly do that. So I don't want to do calls about like, because what am I going to call about? Like I like having calls with you guys. What am I going to call with other people about?

Starting point is 00:48:26 Like new business opportunities. I don't know. Don't you get bored? Like, no, because I can, I, because I work on my websites, right? I open, I make coffee. I make, open my laptop, meet my friend and we code a little bit together, make a new feature. You know, then you go to the gym, we go to sauna. We go swim.

Starting point is 00:48:43 They're kind of like, but that's very reason, right? This kind of chill life. And I don't get bored. As long as I ship a little bit on my websites, I don't really get bored. You're like the only rich. So basically, it's almost always the truth that no matter how hard you try, the more income that you make, your lifestyle gets inflated. Maybe sometimes not as much, but then other times a ton.

Starting point is 00:49:09 And I was like, oh, I'm going to fight it. Like, I can't imagine spending more than $10,000 at a car or whatever. And then you make more income. You're like, oh, whatever. Who cares? You said you spend $4,000 or $5,000 a month. You're one of the few people that has acknowledged that your lifestyle. actually doesn't seem like it's been, it's not lavish at all.

Starting point is 00:49:27 It's 100% on purpose. Like, it's very, um, and it's not always true. Incidentally, sometimes you spend more, right? Like last month was, hotels were really booked so we had to pay a lot of money. But now it's chill again. I think it's on purpose because I try to follow, uh,

Starting point is 00:49:41 like last one was like 10K or something for a hotel because we're in, we're in Lisbon. You're making $3 million a year. Yeah, but paying 10K for hotels is ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. Like it should be the max like two or three K for me personally. But I've seen. seeing a lot of people do that lifestyle inflation, because I know from corporate, from, again,

Starting point is 00:49:57 from studying business, I know the management, managing people and stuff, they get paid more and they get golden handcuffs, right? And they can't leave. A lot of my friends are like that. And I don't want that to happen to me. I mean, can't happen to me, but you get what I mean. And I know that material goods don't really make me happy. So I buy a new shirt or something or I buy a new iPhone. Within two weeks, I'm used to it. And there's studies on this. There's like research about this stuff. Like if you buy a new car, even if you get married, after six months you're at the same happiness. If you buy a house, after six months, same happiness.

Starting point is 00:50:25 So if you know that stuff, you know that, okay, you don't really need to spend money so much. You don't need to buy stuff, essentially. And generally, it will probably make you happier. What do you think you would want to spend more on? Let's say that, like, you know. Food, like good food, like organic, you know, free roaming. I mean, it's cliche, like Joe Rowan, right? But free roaming grass-fat cow beef, you know, that are happy animals, organic,

Starting point is 00:50:51 vegetables, you know, that kind of stuff, like not goods, you know, experiences. It's on purpose I do this. What are some experiences that you think are worth the money? What is what? Sorry. What are some experiences that are like worth the money that, you know, when most people go by, don't you even cost money, right? Like, do you fly coach?

Starting point is 00:51:11 Life coach, what? No, do you fly coach? Sorry. No, so that's, yeah, you're right. So, man, you got me. Like, you're trying to find like stuff, right? Yes, I fly business guys because, no, exactly. I'm done with, I can't sit.

Starting point is 00:51:23 I only do long haul and I only fly like I flew only once in the last 16 months and I flew business Qatar really nice and you can lie down and sleep and stuff. But that's about it, I think. And you know there's one thing I noticed. Like I was in Bangkok in this luxury kind of apartment hotel stuff, but it was a little bit too luxury for me, you know? And I was there for a month and you start noticing that you don't meet as much interesting people. Like I met one interesting person who had this giant wheat farm, the biggest wheat farm in Thailand, because I just legalized it. It was kind of cool. But generally, it's a very different, it's more like a socialite kind of Paris Hilton audience, you know. But in the hostels, you would meet crazy people. You would need backpacks, but also like researchers and entrepreneurs and fledgling entrepreneurs, you know, you met generally more interesting people because you were more in those areas. And I think the problem, yeah. Sorry. Did I tell you about, did I tell you guys?

Starting point is 00:52:18 listen to this. Sean, did I tell you about Sam Corkos from levels, other levels? What's the... Oh, yeah. Yeah. Levels health. The level's health. The thing that goes in your arm. So this guy, so he raised... Yeah, that's right. He raised... So he has a startup that makes eight figures in revenue. It's worth, I think it was $400 million. So let's just say that he's worth $150 million on paper. Not real, but on paper. He came over to my house and he was with his girlfriend. And she made a comment like joking, like, oh, you know, he always gives me a hard time because it takes me forever to pack. But that's ridiculous. I only had this one carry on. And I was like, well, how long does it take you to pack? Sam? He goes, oh, I don't pack. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, he had a drawstring bag. You know what a drawstring bag? It's like a bag. Yes. That's all he had was that bag. And he goes, well, you see, I only own the clothes that I'm wearing right now, which is a white t-shirt, a pair of pants, socks, underwear, and shoes. I only own that plus another pair of underwear, a jacket and this bag in my laptop, which I have right here on me. That's literally the only thing that I own. I was like, wait, what? He goes, yeah, I've been doing, I've been doing this for like eight years now or something like that. And I only live and like, I do what you do. He's like, he does what you do, Peter. He, he, he looks. He, he does what you do, Peter. he lives in like these Airbnbs and hotel style setups and he's been doing it for years and that's all he owned and I thought that was the craziest shit. So he does laundry every day? I don't understand. How's he well I was like I was like so I was like well what if you got to go to a funeral? What if you have to do this? He goes well I just go to a thrift store when I need to go and I buy stuff and then I just bring it back. And he does it partly out of I think this is my guess. He does it partly out of like convenience of not wanting to worry about stuff. I also think that there's like a

Starting point is 00:54:02 philosophy, like a very philosophical thing going on here because it's like extreme. But have you ever heard of anyone, Peter, being that crazy? Dude, yes. Actually, like in 2013, I was in Chiang Mai and there was an Australian guy who would fly from Australia to Thailand to Chiang Mai with only his MacBook Air and the clothes he wore and not even a bag. And he would buy everything he needed on the spot and he would be there for like two or three months. And he would donate the clothes he wore to charity. And then he would fly back to Australia with his MacBook error in his hand. And I was so impressed.

Starting point is 00:54:39 This data is wrong every freaking time. Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrated. Whoa, I can see the client's whole history. Call, support tickets, emails. And here's a task from three days ago I totally missed. HubSpot, grow better. See, that's cool.

Starting point is 00:55:00 I would do that because I think that actually adds to the experience of traveling. like traveling fully light. And then when you get there, buying what you need and then giving it away when you leave. Like I'd actually get down with that. But like I rotate two underwear and I put my underwear in my bag with my max. I don't know about that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:20 No, but I think it comes down to philosophy. And I do think it sounds pretentious, but I don't care. It comes down to constraining your life in a certain way. I think constraints are good in creativity and life and stuff. And it makes you focus on the really important things in life for you personally. It must be different for everybody. You know, for me, that's like, you know, girlfriend, friends, health, food, you know, happiness, all that stuff kind of. And creative work, meaningful work, very important.

Starting point is 00:55:51 Like, I need to be able to, I need to have something to do in my day. I need to feel like I'm contributing something like Sam said. So what do you own? So I have a backpack. I have a rolling suitcase, though, like a small one. I have clothes. I have an iPhone, MacBook,

Starting point is 00:56:06 a pro. I have a toothbrush. It's a minimal. You can name all the things you own. I'm looking around, right? I have two stadia controllers like game pads. You can use stadia here. It's kind of cool.

Starting point is 00:56:23 Yeah, that's about it. I think, I mean, I mean, I have like backup phones and stuff because, you know, two-factor authentication stuff, but it's not a lot of stuff. do this. You mentioned, you can talk about your family or not if you want, but do you think you're going to do this when you have kids? So what does doing it mean? Because I'm mostly settled down. I'm mostly in one place. I'm just like trying to not buy stuff from Amazon. Doing it as in not owning stuff. I mean, like, I think your life is cool, but you have to acknowledge

Starting point is 00:56:51 that it's alternative in the sense of like, you know, one percent of the population does what you do. Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. I think it's interesting that like the stuff I do may or may not become a thing because a lot of things I did eight years ago now are normal right so it might be that the things that who cares become I mean if you're happy who cares if it becomes a thing it's more like yeah it's more like it might become mainstream um I think uh I think even if you have kids you can do it in an alternative way you can uh you know you can go to a thrift store get like second hand toys or something second hand clothes that kind of stuff but it all doesn't have to be this so consumerist and and buying and you know what I mean it can we can do

Starting point is 00:57:31 it in a different way. And I'm just trying to figure out, like, how I, how I, yeah, want to do that. And we've talked about a nomadless style red pill before briefly, which was my, I forgot what it's called. Sam, do you remember the name of like the zero waste project or the zero, the zero project or something like that? So basically my wife told me about this. She's like, yeah, you know, there's like, like in the city, in the little town we live in, there's like this Facebook group. And what they do is it's just like, it's like a barter it's like oh it's not even a barter economy it's like a giving economy so it's like if you have stuff you just give it into the giving circle and other people can take it out and then they can give stuff in and it's basically like oh your kid it's i think it's a lot around kids stuff

Starting point is 00:58:14 like my kids grown out of this uh it doesn't it doesn't make a trusted by me right yeah like craigslist randos it's like yeah amongst this trusted group of people who buy nothing the same thing but the buy nothing project yeah um and i think i might have butchered exactly how it works sam do you know a little bit how it works well it It's just the idea of like, instead of like reduce, reuse, recycle, like for like consumer or for like plastic and shit, they're like, no, no, no, let's just like reuse. We're going to reuse everything. So instead of buying a new toy, we're going to go get one for free and then we're going to give away when we're done. It's just a mindset. And then there's, there's a bunch of companies in the space. But the big one is like this buy nothing series of Facebook groups. So we're just like, I'm going to give away, I'm giving away these children's clothes. Come get them. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's. I mean, it's. That's nice. Like, it doesn't make any sense. You have a baby and it grows out of its clothes every month or something or every two months. So why would you buy every new? If you can ask your family for clothes they already wore or whatever, right? It makes more sense to me personally. Yeah. Who do you want to be like? Who do you admire and who do you want to be like? Because like the reason why people buy shit for their kids is because they want to have, they want their kids to have Jordan. So they look cool for other people because they want to impress other people. Who do you want to impress? And who do you want to impress? And who.

Starting point is 00:59:31 Who do you want to be like you think? Like, who do you look up to? I like Derek Sivers. I don't know if you know Derek Sivers. Yeah. Tell me about him. Who is he? He started a company called CD Baby in the 90s, I think, or in early 2000s,

Starting point is 00:59:49 which was like one of the first indie kind of music distributors where you could send your music as an indie musician, and they would press the CDs for you, and they would send it to your customers and stuff. and they also now on Spotify and stuff and he sold us for $30 million. I interviewed him for my best first thesis, actually. He's really nice guy, like the most nice guy in startups, I think.

Starting point is 01:00:09 And he's very, he writes a lot. He writes a lot of books now and he's very philosophical. Also kind of nomadic. He's been in like living in Singapore. He lived in New Zealand, lived in US and stuff. And he's very, if you go to his website like Derek Syvers. Ork, I think, he writes very much kind of same concepts that I talk about. like about simple life and, and, yeah, it's hard to describe it.

Starting point is 01:00:36 But I think that's a very inspirational guide to me. And I don't really need to impress. I think I want to impress my parents, just, but they're already happy with me. So it doesn't really matter. I want to, I want to try and stay, have like a stable, you know, happiness. Because I've been depressed a lot. I've been anxious. I had like, especially when traveling, you go crazy in these, you know, in hotel rooms

Starting point is 01:00:58 alone. Like traveling can, it brings you very deep into your own self and stuff. And I think the most important for me is to impress myself by just, you know, being stable and having a stable, happy life with people around me. And, yeah, like kind of wholesome life, you know, and that's my goal. What part of your life are you not impressed by? Either yourself or Derek Sivers or if any of those people, right, you just mentioned like the lifestyle, you mean?

Starting point is 01:01:28 Yeah. What part of your life is not at that point where there, you feel like it's not impressive in that way that, that, that, that, well, I'm like, I want to have a family too, like you guys. And that's what I'm working on. And yeah, that's like, that's more of a focus now, you know, like, pretty easy, by the way. You just got to do one thing. I'll tell you about it. I'll tell you about it later. You know, and then you need to, like, see if they're not crazy. You need to, like, connect and all this stuff. And I think, yeah, that's, that's it done. Dude, Sean, you have a... Go ahead, go ahead. I want to hear this answer. No, I mean, like, a little bit like you say, like, I think about Elon Musk. Every time Elon Musk presents something, you're like, oh, fuck, like, that's so cool. Like, why am I building shitty internet websites?

Starting point is 01:02:12 This is my only life I have. I'm going to die. I should do something bigger. But then I have to, like, bring myself back to like, no, it's cool. You're doing okay. Like, it doesn't really need to be bigger. But, I mean, everybody wants to make, like, space rockets, I guess. But it's just so hard to do that, you know?

Starting point is 01:02:26 Sean, you have a, you have a dog. right a little dog yep I've got a big dog how do I love dog yeah yeah so you like animals I owning animals like big aggressive looking dogs that's what I'm that's my thing it's like I'm a weirdo but how do you live this the I want to live a little bit more like you it's and I can do it a now because I have a little bit of money so I can just like pay for fancier Airbnbs that are pet friendly and B I can only do it basically in America doing this lifestyle with abroad with an animal. Even in America, I drive, you either have to fly private or you have to drive most places. I drive most places. How do you live this life with an animal? I don't have animals,

Starting point is 01:03:09 but I want them. I had two cats with my ex-girlfriend, and it was actually interesting. We went to, in Bangkok to this luxury apartment hotel, and they were cat-friendly. And it was like this, you know, high society of Bangkok people with cute cats and cute dogs. In Asia, all the dogs are small. They like small dogs. I like big dogs, too, like you some. But, uh, and, And they walk around in the hotel and it's super cute. And they have like cats and dog ice cream and stuff and food. And they have little like a little beds for them to sleep in and stuff. And everything is service.

Starting point is 01:03:39 And that's another big market, I think, you know, tech people with pets and stuff. They want to travel as well. Yeah. Sean, have you looked in to have you guys looked into flying in America with an animal? So basically if you're, why do you think I don't go places, dude? What am I supposed to do with my dog? Your animal's under 20 pounds, right? Yeah, she is.

Starting point is 01:03:56 But that also means like she's not like tough enough to do all this stuff. Like we're like, oh, God, how's she going to handle this experience, you know, of going on a seven-hour flight or whatever? Yeah, but she's the dog's able to. So like in terms, I don't know if she's physically able to, but she's allowed to, you could put it in a carrier and put it on your lap or like in the above, whatever the suitcase thing. And if you have an animal that's above 20 pounds. Who's putting their dog in the above thing?

Starting point is 01:04:24 You can put your dog on. That's not that. I don't know, dude. It's like putting a blanket over a... It's like putting a blanket over a bird cage. It's right. I don't know. That's just what...

Starting point is 01:04:33 Or you put it underneath. You put it underneath, dude. Whatever you fucking do. I don't know. I don't have one of these things. But that's what they say on the directions when you look online. But, uh, like, if you have an animal above 20 pounds, you cannot be... You basically cannot, this whole emotional support animal thing, that's kind of nonsense.

Starting point is 01:04:51 That's kind of getting phased out. You cannot bring an animal, a dog on a flat. I'm always amazed that for popular routes, they don't have like a once a month or twice a month animal friendly route. Dude, it's going to happen. It's absolutely going to happen. It's a huge growing market, I think. Because a lot of rich people are not having kids.

Starting point is 01:05:10 Sorry. Right. I was going to say, I read something that one airline is like being like, yeah, we'll fly pets. Like, I think they do a lot of pets in the cargo or whatever. Because most airlines have been phasing that out. And I think it's Southwest. I forgot which airline. Some airline is making bank because they take all the pets.

Starting point is 01:05:25 And it was like a different. It's like, you know, bags fly free, but it's like, yeah, we, we let you fly your pet. And everybody else is saying no nowadays. Man, I think you can do it. You can, I think it's all about slow matting. So if you do, if you move like every, let's say, every six months, it's not that bad for the dog or the cat. And you give them a stable life in where you arrive and not too much chaos and stuff.

Starting point is 01:05:46 I think it's okay. I think it's not okay if you keep moving like every week or every month. That might be a little bit stressful for the dog and a cat, right? But six months, like, yeah, it's okay. And especially if you get the, the. It was, you had a great tweet. It was, if you don't have a dog in your profile picture on Twitter, are you even trying? It's a growth hack.

Starting point is 01:06:05 It's the biggest growth hack, right? Sam has one, right? You have a Facebook picture, I think. Yeah, because guys use this on Tinder, right? This was a Tinder dating trick. Like you, because they swipe right for the dog, not for you, but they still swipe right, right? So, yeah. I've noticed there's like two hacks.

Starting point is 01:06:20 When I was single, if, like, if I ever walk around with like a niece or nephew or like a kid, that's like an automatic door open. to meet women. And then the other one was having an aggressive but nice looking dog. It's like, oh, doors, I'm on, they're disarmed. We're good. You know? And why does that be aggressive, but aggressive looking but nice?

Starting point is 01:06:40 Is that one of those things where it's like dog owners look like their pets? And so if your dog looks a certain way, they'll think that about you. They want to heal you, you know? Like, women want to heal you sometimes. It's like seeing a guy with like sleeve tattoos who smoke cigarettes and a, and a tattoo under his eye who like you know just wants to like spend time and cuddle you know like it's like a it's you know you're you're you're eclectic i don't know it just works don't ask me uh that just works yeah um so dude i love samoyette dogs by the way the big white polar bear dog right and i think

Starting point is 01:07:15 it kind of like it's it's so fluffy it's like that's a very Asian move of you that's they're very popular in Asia right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah think what uh I've seen him here too yeah yeah yeah but yeah. What are some, is there anything that people assume about your life and your lifestyle and your businesses that you, like for example, with the hustle as well as Sean's Milk Road, a lot of people are like, oh, that's it. It's just a fucking newsletter. You just write these words and you just hit send. That's so easy. Anyone can do it. And it's like, well, no, it's actually like a user acquisition play. Like, you have to know how to do that. And then it's also like, you're just not good at writing. Like, you have to be good. And that's just a talent. You either

Starting point is 01:07:53 have it or you don't. And so that's like some misconceptions about our business. What about yours? Is there anything that people always assume and you're like, no, because like, people can, anyone can copy you. Yeah. I think generally people think that every website or app or company, they're a customer of that is more simple than actually is because you can't see behind the hood and it's actually way more complicated than you think because there's so many edge cases in every business

Starting point is 01:08:18 that you need to code like if statements for or build like little scripts for special features. it's much more complicated. And I think people realize that when they start, because people always clone you, right? Like they make a copycat of your website and somehow doesn't take off because they've been able to copy the outside of it,

Starting point is 01:08:35 the aesthetic kind of, but they don't know what's happening under the hood. So it's much more complicated. Like, dude, a job board is much more complicated than you think. Like, fuck, how do you explain this? There's so many little parts that, you know, especially companies want. They want, you know, invoices for every little thing they add.

Starting point is 01:08:54 the price is dynamic, that kind of stuff. I changed job post pricing based on how many people post jobs on my side, for example. There's so much stuff happening behind the curtains that you don't see. Yeah, it's much more complicated. I also think the misconception about, yeah, sorry. And a lot of your stuff is automated

Starting point is 01:09:11 to where, like, you don't have to be involved. It kind of runs itself. You said everything's automated. Almost 99%. And to post on your job board, it ranges from $100 to $1,000, I think of whatever, the huge range. Yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:23 How would you, for the, like, I'm tinkering with something that costs many, many thousands of dollars a year. Is there, how would you figure out how to do that? Like, and so in my head, I'm like, fuck, I got to hire a bunch of salespeople. That sucks. Do you think that you could automate most things, even that are high-ticketed items? Oh, for sure. Dude, I sell job post bundles for like 50K via Stripe, which is like amazing for me, to me. Like, I'm like, how do you do that?

Starting point is 01:09:51 That works. So you make a. page called buy bundle and you have the this you can go to remoterk.com slash buy dash bundle and you'll see like a slider where you can make your own bundle and get a discount based on it and it's all automated and you add your credit card and then you pay you know 50k or 40k whatever and how many people do that oh yeah it's like a lot of it's like 30% of the revenue I think bundles no shit so someone's using a debit card or whatever for 50k yeah yeah Yeah, dude, these company cards, this is what, this is lagging information.

Starting point is 01:10:26 People don't know the company cards have been upgraded, I think, because they're using it for much more these days. Really, like, it's a lot of money. And I have no idea. Like, I never thought, like, I don't, I'm not hiring people. I don't know how this works. I just try it. Like, okay, maybe, I think companies ask me, like, can we buy a few job posts for in the future? I'm like, okay, I'll make this thing.

Starting point is 01:10:45 And a lot of companies use this. So you figure out the features that people want based on the token to them, of course. Dude, I'm looking at the sales features by bundles. 25, 25 jobs, it's $22,000. You do something interesting in your sales pages is you just pack it with information. That's totally the right move.

Starting point is 01:11:02 But you pack it with text. Like you use icons to kind of break it up. Emoges, yeah. I use emojis a lot. Yeah. No, it looks like a circus, right? But it kind of works. It's not like well designed, right?

Starting point is 01:11:16 It's not like minimalist design. It's just like I just add stuff every day and it just keeps growing. But it works kind of. what's the biggest purchase someone has made i can scroll i gotta jump sorry i got another call i got i got to i got to peter this has been amazing i gotta go yeah nice to me to sean see yeah what's uh what what what's it been the biggest uh purchase that you've had this scrolls all the way up to 150 000 i think 50k or something around 50k maybe 49 but that happens that happens a lot of

Starting point is 01:11:45 yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah this is crazy yeah i'm working on this thing and like it's like 10k a year and I'm like, oh, man, I'm going to have to, like, get on the phone all the time. But seeing you is quite inspiring. But I get annoyed if I need to use, like, I want to use these location service APIs to figure out where are people traveling to, for example. And it's always like, you need to do a sales call. You need to, like, contact us and stuff. And I get so annoyed with it.

Starting point is 01:12:10 And I know people on Twitter get annoyed with it that they can't get a price directly and sign up, you know. Yeah, I think it's much easier to do like this, like a sales flow. I think it's easier. I would argue maybe... It's easier for me, yeah. It's easier for you, but I would actually argue there's a world where it's not as effective, though, because I'm in the same boat as you is I don't want to have to do all this crap.

Starting point is 01:12:36 And I'm not naturally a salesperson. But when I hired a sales team, and they were shockingly good at drumming up demand. And I remember a cool podcast with the founder of Squarespace, I think it was. And he was like you. He's an engineer. like, I don't want to leave my room. I don't like talking to people. I like freedom, this and that.

Starting point is 01:12:55 And he goes, and he goes, the biggest, one of a huge mistake I made was I look down on salespeople and I look down on this, like, the type of pricing where I think I got to get him on the phone. But he was like, I looked down on it and I was wrong. It was effective. They, they created demand for a product. And that surprised me most. So, like, yeah.

Starting point is 01:13:15 I don't know. I think you're right. I think my problem is that it's been, it's very hard to meet good. salespeople or to find them. And it's unclear for me how I, how I can hire them and, um, you know, I, how can I rate a person to hire them as a good salesperson? I don't know what's a good salesperson. And I've never done outbound, almost never done outreach and stuff. Um, and I'm scared that if I hire sales people, I need to manage them and then, you know, they might fuck up. They might start spamming everybody in LinkedIn and then it becomes like a screenshot thing on Twitter like Luke, Peter

Starting point is 01:13:48 levels is spamming with his website and stuff. That might, to try, you know, to try and you. It might, and bad. And I think you're right. If you get the right salespeople, it can work. I just, I'd never been able to, you know, find those people. It just matters what you're optimizing for. If you're optimizing for happiness and a well, if you're optimizing for happiness and like a good life, do it your way. Your way is working really well. If you want to like grow at a certain rate per year and you want to really push it, I do think a salesperson is, is you do need a sales team, but that's not what you're optimizing for. You're optimizing for freedom. So in happiness.

Starting point is 01:14:23 Yeah. And I also think there's different types of companies. For example, there's companies that ask for a lot of forms. Like they want like a W-8 form, like all these US IRS forms and stuff. They want you to sign everything. They want you to sign an NDA. And there's some companies that just, you know, enter their credit card on Stripe and it's done. And it's different customers.

Starting point is 01:14:39 And the customers that ask for a lot of questions on email, they generally convert less. For me, they pay less money. And they are more of a hassle to, you know, do customer support for and stuff. So you also, you get different types of customers. If you do it all automatic, you get more kind of modern customers that are easier to deal with, I think. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to talk about? No, I think we, maybe transparency.

Starting point is 01:15:09 Like the reason I'm so transparent is, I think it's very, like I said before, I think it's very important to be honest and to show other people that you can build a nice indie company like this by sharing every ups and downs of it. And instead of, because everybody else is only sharing the good things and we're growing so fast and we're hiring and we're funded and blah, blah, blah. And I think it would be cool if we did business in a maybe in a more wholesome way where we, you know, share everything and share the ups and downs.

Starting point is 01:15:43 And yeah, maybe not grow super, super, super big, but more in a, you know, wholesome manner. I have a, I like that, but I have a few critiques. The first is, I think that if you're higher, so you remember Buffer? It's a Buffer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did the whole shit. They did it even more, well, equally as extreme as you, I would say. But they revealed everyone's sessions for sure, yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:06 But they revealed everyone's salary. And they did that. Yeah. I think they did it as a marketing schick. They did it because they're like, well, like, you know, like our product's okay. It's good enough. But like, let's come up with a cool schick. So we stick out.

Starting point is 01:16:17 And it aligns with our philosophies. Great. And it worked really well for the. them. But I actually think that it probably hurts them after a while. It's really hard to do that after 100 or 150. I don't know what the number is. Some amount of employees because you're like, dude, I don't want my shit all out there. And when I, if I was you, like, when we sold their company, I didn't exactly reveal how much I made because I'm like, man, I don't want to be a target. I don't want people to take advantage of me. I don't want to be judged in a particular way.

Starting point is 01:16:44 I don't want that type of attention. So I'd rather just say like round whole numbers instead of like exactly what I do. There's a real security risk for sure. Yeah. Like you don't want to talk about where you are right now. Yeah, yeah. Part of it is because. Yeah, for sure.

Starting point is 01:16:58 100%. Yeah, yeah. 100%. So like that's accurate. Part of the downside. But at the same time, it's a marketing. It's maybe it agrees with your life philosophy.

Starting point is 01:17:10 And also it's a pretty sick marketing stick. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I think it's hard to stop it. Because I've been doing it for so long. It's become part of my identity. it would be hard to hide all this stuff now.

Starting point is 01:17:22 And they're like, where did this open page go? Like, why are you not sharing anyone? I'm like, ah, I'm just done with it now. You know, yeah. And I do think it's this recurring marketing machine that I think is a big part of why my businesses work became successful and why I got a lot of audience on Twitter. It's because of this. I cannot deny that.

Starting point is 01:17:40 So it's very hard to quit that, right, once you've been doing it for so long. Yeah, that's why I'm nervous about even doing it in the first place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's kind of like I haven't gone hard on YouTube or any other social platform because I'm like, oh, I don't want a commitment. Like, you got to keep up with that. I wanted to do YouTube as well. And I have the same problem.

Starting point is 01:18:00 Yeah. I'm like, this is going to be a new recurring like activity I need to do every week. I need to upload a video, make a video. Yeah. I think there's a world where you could do seasons, you know, like a TV show has a season. I think there's a world where you could do seasons and do quite well. But the majority of people do it like regularly. And I'm like, oh, man.

Starting point is 01:18:19 don't want to get on that treadmill. That's scary. No, I think it burns you out. Like, look at all the YouTube is burning out. It's a- They all bail. Extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's extreme schedule. Yeah. I think it might be interesting if I just sit in front of the laptop like this and I just tell all the stuff I know and I think. And instead of writing it down and just making like little videos, Derek Sivers also did that. He makes little videos about small topics, you know, five minutes, explain something in the next video. And so Alex Hermose was doing it.

Starting point is 01:18:44 The guy on our podcast, Alex Ramosey, he's been doing it lately. And he loves it. And it seems like a lot of, kind of a lot of work, but not that much work. No more work in this podcast. And I don't consider this podcast to be too much work. But it works well. But, dude, thanks for coming on. This has been fun. I hope you will come on more often and we'll do a little more brainstorming this time.

Starting point is 01:19:08 Yeah, dude, it was super fun. Thanks for having me. Super cool. Yeah, hopefully we didn't. You said you were nervous because we were going to ask. No, but no, it's fine. I don't think we asked anything. We didn't ask anything crazy.

Starting point is 01:19:19 Yeah. cool. There's not much to ask when you tell everyone on the internet about everything you do. Yeah. This is always when the good part of the podcast starts, right? Because you end it and then like the real shit. Hopefully not. The real stuff I hope was going on the whole time. It was great. Yeah. Dude, thanks. This is awesome. Pimp out your stuff. So it's at levels. Yeah, it's Twitter.com slash levels. I also L-E-V-E-L-S-I-O. And there's all the links for my website there. So you can click from there. Thanks, dude. Thanks for coming.

My First Million - Pieter Levels: Making $2.7M A Year With No Employees

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.