My First Million - Producer Ben Had A 90-Minute Phone Call With Mr. Beast, Hypnosis and More

Episode Date: July 19, 2022

Sam Parr (@TheSamParr) and Shaan Puri (@ShaanVP) talk with Producer Ben (@BenWilsonTweets) about his surprise phone call with YouTube sensation, Mr. Beast, the power of hypnosis, and ambitious people. ----- Links: * Mr. Beast * Intro.co * Grace Smith * Aviator Nation * Write Like Shaan * Do you love MFM and want to see Sam and Shaan's smiling faces? Subscribe to our Youtube channel. * Want more insights like MFM? Check out Shaan's newsletter. ----- Show Notes: (18:15) - Intro.co and Hypnosis (29:30) - Aviator Nation (38:05) - Shaan's mother's immigration story (48:30) - People who follow through (58:10) - Hanging out with ambitious people (01:02:35) - Thoughts on Pieter Levels podcast ----- Past guests on My First Million include Rob Dyrdek, Hasan Minhaj, Balaji Srinivasan, Jake Paul, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Gary Vee, Lance Armstrong, Sophia Amoruso, Ariel Helwani, Ramit Sethi, Stanley Druckenmiller, Peter Diamandis, Dharmesh Shah, Brian Halligan, Marc Lore, Jason Calacanis, Andrew Wilkinson, Julian Shapiro, Kat Cole, Codie Sanchez, Nader Al-Naji, Steph Smith, Trung Phan, Nick Huber, Anthony Pompliano, Ben Askren, Ramon Van Meer, Brianne Kimmel, Andrew Gazdecki, Scott Belsky, Moiz Ali, Dan Held, Elaine Zelby, Michael Saylor, Ryan Begelman, Jack Butcher, Reed Duchscher, Tai Lopez, Harley Finkelstein, Alexa von Tobel, Noah Kagan, Nick Bare, Greg Isenberg, James Altucher, Randy Hetrick and more. ----- Additional episodes you might enjoy: • #224 Rob Dyrdek - How Tracking Every Second of His Life Took Rob Drydek from 0 to $405M in Exits • #209 Gary Vaynerchuk - Why NFTS Are the Future • #178 Balaji Srinivasan - Balaji on How to Fix the Media, Cloud Cities & Crypto * #169 - How One Man Started 5, Billion Dollar Companies, Dan Gilbert's Empire, & Talking With Warren Buffett • ​​​​#218 - Why You Should Take a Think Week Like Bill Gates • Dave Portnoy vs The World, Extreme Body Monitoring, The Future of Apparel Retail, "How Much is Anthony Pompliano Worth?", and More • How Mr Beast Got 100M Views in Less Than 4 Days, The $25M Chrome Extension, and More

All right. Let's do this. I've got a few things to talk about. But first, Sean, let's talk to Ben. Ben had a big night. Why are we even talking? We are now the sideshow. We're the openers, actually. For the main event, Ben, Ben made event Wilson. What's up? Dude, how are you feeling? Well, let's let let's let the same here. We're not even tell them why. We're just going to hype it up. So here's the here's the setup. Sean and I were chilling last night. And we get a, text from Ben and he says, hey, look who just followed me. And it was Mr. Beast. And I think it's, so for context, everyone, Ben is our producer here. Ben has a podcast called How to Take Over the World. It's, uh, it's fairly popular, but growing quickly. So, uh, your Twitter only has like a thousand or two thousand followers, right? Four thousand. Four thousand. So we get this message and you said, hey, look who, uh, look who just started following me. And it was Mr. Beas. And Sean and I made

fun of you saying like, you know, that's nothing, no big deal. Then you sent a text message to us saying, uh, been on the phone with them for the past hour and a half. And we were like, wait, what? And we don't really know. We don't know anything else. So, of course, there's going to be some stuff here that you can't talk about. But what happened? Yeah. So, uh, I got back from Utah with my in-laws on Saturday. So I was like feeling a little jet lag. I was about to go to bed early, getting into bed with my wife and I looked down on my phone and I've got a notification says Mr. Beast followed you. And my first thought is like, oh yeah, Mr. Beast followed me. Like Mr. underscore Beast, hey, give me my social security number and I'll Venmo you $5,000. So I literally, I saw it and I just put down

my phone and like keep just like chatting with my wife or whatever. And then I pick it up five minutes later and I look at it and I go, I actually don't see an underscore. I don't, I don't see anything wrong with this. And I click on it and it's verified and it's Mr. Beast and he just followed me and I was like oh that's weird like you said I only have 4,000 followers like it's not it's not a normal thing for like I just you know pick up Mr. Beast and then I get a DM like two minutes later and he's like hey um I listen to your podcast I think it's cool I would love to chat sometime I don't want anything from you I just like want to learn and I was like so I respond I say cool yeah let's talk anytime I'm free like anytime you want to talk next week you

sound like you're playing it cool, but inside, what's going on? Yeah, so inside, I was like, actually, even outside, I was like, my wife is Katie. I was like, Katie, Katie, Katie? What's this starts happening? And she was like, what? And I was like, Mr. Beast following me. She's like, what's a Mr. Beast? And I was like, no, I got to call someone else.

That's what I texted you guys. Because like, she doesn't get it. I need to talk to someone who gets it. Katie, leave the room. Go get me a 12 year old stat. who could have a discussion about this movie. Katie, get your nephew on the line. She's getting mad at me if I talk smack about her, though.

Once I explained who he was, she was very, very excited. She was very, very excited. So I messaged him, yeah, and I'm like trying to play it cool. Like, oh, yeah, cool. I could make time, no problem. And should I run or crawl to you? And then he hits me with the Sean and he's like, how about right now? And I'm like sitting there like in my boxers, in my bed.

And I'm like, yep, I am 100% ready to talk right now. Call me. And so he called me. And apparently he does this. At night he goes for walks and he just calls people who he thinks are interesting. And he tries to like download their brains and learn anything that he does. can. So we talked for like almost two and a half hours at the end and he's a very cool dude and I learned a lot of cool stuff. Well, like, well, and? Yeah. I mean, what did you guys talk

about? We talked about a lot. I like it was, you know, it was just like a personal conversation. So I'm not going to share everything that we talked about. But I mean, for me, the, the coolest thing he did was yeah I've known for a long time that I need to take my podcast to YouTube and I got to ask him like okay so how should I do this and he basically walked me through how he would do it and how would he do it general game plan basically I was saying you know should I do segments should I do clips should I animate it should I do me on the screen and what he said is do the full episodes you probably want to edit the scripts a little bit so that it's not quite so casual. Because podcast, like you listen to as you're washing the dishes, like it doesn't matter that it's not gripping

every second of the of the audio. But for YouTube, like it does need to be gripping every second, like really needs to pull people second by second. So he said, you need to edit your script a little bit for video, do animations, do it highly produced, and do the full episodes, like 45 minutes to an hour long. That was the basic strategy. And then he gave me some comps, some, channels that I should make it similar to and some homework to study up on. What did he want to ask you, right? Because he called you. So, you know, was he looking for something? Was he just saying, hey, tell me about, you know, I'm walking around. I want to hear, I'm listening to your podcast and I decided I'd like you to say it out loud to me live. Go. Like,

what was he, what was he interested in? He was laying in bed and he said, Ben, tell me about my heroes. Yeah. And, uh, no, he, yeah, he, the funny thing was, he didn't really know. So we were just like talking about random stuff. And he's like, I just want to learn from you. So I don't know. What's up, man? Like that's kind of how he went into it.

And I was like, I don't know. What's up with you? And so then we just kind of started chatting about random topics. I asked him a lot of stuff. He told me a lot of cool stuff that is not public information. And then at the end, he was asking me sort of about, like guru is honestly very similar i told you about that finance guy yeah yeah so and like wants me to be his guru the background is very similar the background of that is like

this person worth hundreds of millions of dollars hollered at ben and said just tell me what mistakes i'm going to make before i make them based off of like historical people so ben's podcast is he basically reads three books on titans of industry and he breaks them down into like a two or three-hour podcast. So by, in theory, Ben's an expert, three-book expert on a lot of different people. And if you're going to listen to one, go listen to Edison. I think it's amazing. Sam, what's your favorite one? Edison, to me, is by far my favorite. What's the richest Rothschild? I like the Rothschild one. But I do think the Edison one is the most impactful because it, like, we all know the outcome of Edison. The Disney one people liked. I didn't like that as much

because Disney, like, is not as interesting to me, but, uh, that one's probably the most popular. So interestingly, I, for Disney, I almost did a follow up at the end of it because I listened to Mr. Beast's interview on Joe Rogan. And the stuff Mr. Beast was saying, I was like, oh, this person is so similar to Walt Disney that it's almost kind of spooky. And maybe I should make a podcast just pointing out, like a quick 10 minute one, pointing out the similarities between Walt Disney and Mr. Beast. And when he got on the phone, he was like, I loved. the Walt Disney one that really resonated with me. And I was like, oh, that doesn't surprise.

Dude, this is why, like, you're, you're, you're pretty under monetized, but I think it's going to catch up soon because I think what's going to happen. And we said this six months ago, you make these comments like, oh, you remind me of Walt Disney. And so if I'm the person who, like, if I'm Mr. Beast and you said it to me, I go, really? What, um, what mistake? Like, what am I doing wrong? Um, or like, uh, I'm thinking about doing X, Y, and Z. Did Walt do this and like, did it work and did it not work?

Like, you're this weird. fortune teller type of person. And that, did he say something like that to you? Yeah, a little bit, a little bit. He got into the like, well, what mistakes should I look out for? Like, what do you think that, like, what do you think I need to be wary of? There's a, there's a Charlie Munger quote that's like, tell me where I'm going to die, so I know I never go there, right?

Like, I'll just make sure you never to go there. It's kind of that. But I'm sure there's also the upside, right? Like, it's not just what mistake. but like how did they make their greatness happen? I think that's actually more of what people care about. How do they make their greatness happen? And then kind of draw parallels to my own life of like,

yeah, I am just like Edison and the Rothschilds and Disney after all. You know, so similar, right? I think, you know, like for Mr. Beast, I think the parallels are super easy with Walt Disney. The thing, the only time that Walt Disney slowed down in his career

was for like a decade. And it was because Walt loved to be, working on a new thing, but a certain point, everyone convinced him like, oh, actually, you have this enormous multimillion dollar animation studio now. You just need to be working on pumping out more full-length animations. And like when he did that, the whole thing kind of went downhill. And then he goes crazy and he starts obsessing over little toy trains and like really going off the rails. But those those model trains then get bigger and bigger and becomes Disneyland. And that is when he comes out of his funk and starts innovating again.

And so for Mr. Beast, it's just like the, don't let anyone convince you that you need to be working on the reasonable thing. Like you need to follow your unreasonable passions because somehow great things are to come out of that. So for context, Walt Disney, I can't imagine he was more successful than Mr. Beast was at Mr. Beast's age. But how big was his business when you say things were going, were being becoming unsuccessful? And he started focusing.

And what does focusing mean? Like, was he the CEO of this company? Walt was essentially the CEO of Walt Disney Studios. Yeah. And this is basically in the 40s and early 50s. And it was not huge, huge, but it was like hundreds to maybe just over a thousand employees. That's how big Walt Disney Studios was. That's amazing.

Well, Ben, I think this was cool as hell. I'm so happy for you. that that happened. These are cool moments along the way and sort of like signals that like you're on the right track. You know, Sam discovered you, I don't know, when. He came on a year ago. It was a year ago. And you did this awesome. Somebody put a Twitter clip up. You did some interview and you were like, you're like, I'm listening to my first million and I hear Sam say, man, I found this podcast. I love. It's called How to Take Over the World. And I thought to myself, Huh, there's another podcast called How to Take Over the World. How cool is that?

And then you're like, oh shit, he's talking about me, Ben Wilson. He just said my name. And then, you know, and then we basically, then I went down the rabbit hole after Sam said it. I was like, that sounds like really interesting. I don't like to read biographies, but I think I'd like to listen to two hours. And like, that's just, you know, like one commute. And I could like know the story of Edison. I listened to the Edison one. I got hooked. I called you basically right after that. I think I DM'd you and called you. And I was like, hey, let's partner. Like, I think your thing is going to blow up. Come work for us on our podcast. And then we will help cross promote your podcast and like, let's take this to the next level. And these are the little happenings that happen along the way. And now, you know, Mr. Beasts following, you know, Sam and my lead of recognizing your talents for what they are. And so, you know, honestly, like, I think you have a great thing going. I'm really happy for you that, you know, this happened.

I think it's such a cool thing that happened. I think what would be cool. And I think this might happen, Ben. Here's what I'm going to predict that's going to happen. And in the next month, you're going to record an episode with Jimmy, Mr. Beast. You're going to record an episode with Mr. Beast. And I think you, if you, you should ask him, you should text him and be like, hey, next time you want to do a Sunday talk, can I just record it?

And we're going to talk about history. And I'm going to make it an episode. Do you care? And it's going to be really cool because it's going to be like when Elon Musk went on or when like, I forget it was like Elon Musk went on a couple like, he went on weight but wine. Hardcore history. And it's like, dude, well, hardcore history is like, big.

than you been, but even to the mainstream person, they're like, why is Elon Musk appearing on this nerdy niche thing? And it blows it up. And that's what's going to happen. It's going to be all the young people are going to be like, why is Mr. Beast on this history thing? What is going on? Who is this? And I think that's what's going to happen and your life is going to change. I predict that's, this is how that story is going to play out. You should definitely reach out with some idea. You just need to, what is the idea of how he could join you on the thing? And like, just get that. one thing right and it'll be like an inflection point for for you and what you do well it should be

it should be why mr beast is the new Walt disney and you're going to be like and i'm going to tell you i'm going to jimmy uh this name's jimmy right i'm going to tell you why how you are just like Walt disney but i'm going to do it in front of everyone and you can ask me questions and i'll explain to you why uh that's that's why i think you are just like him i think that'll be really cool I think what I would want to do is if you would let me, like, go down to North Carolina and, like, interview his parents, interview his friends and, like, actually kind of make like a semi-documentary, audio documentary out of it, the making of Mr. Beast. That would be sick. And also, it could be like, this is the part one of maybe, of hopefully many parts to come. And I'm going to do this, you know, I can, I can kind of document your whole whole thing, how this turns out.

But you're only 20, what is he, 25, 26 years old, something like that. It's like, you know, this is, this is part one. You know, it's funny, part one. I was talking to him and I was talking about like guys you call me. This is like, you know, wow, I have never seen this sort of deep happiness inside you. This is amazing. So I was talking about like, yeah, these guys call me up and think I'm their guru. And so like I might do like a consulting business off of it like coaching type of thing because

there seems to be a market for that. And he was like, oh, yeah, I could see that. That seems like something I would have gone for when I was younger. And I was like, when you were younger, you're 24 years old. Like, how much time is there of when you were younger? He's like, I used to feel like just like that yesterday. He's like, yeah, when I was younger, you're like, I have a child. I'm seven years older than you and I have a child. All right. That's funny. That's awesome. He just I think dogged you in a very nice way. Yeah, he did. Did you a favor?

He kind of like shit on you in the most gentle way possible in a way that's helpful to you. Yes, exactly. Well, congratulations. That's cool. All right. I'm excited to see what's going to happen. Thanks, guys. All right, Sean, I have.

What else we got? I've got a few interesting things for you. Let me tell you the first interesting thing that I'm doing in my life and kind of an interesting business. So I'm on this app called intro. Are you using intro? I don't use it. No.

but let's explain what it is. It's basically like you call an expert for an hour and you pay for the time and you can do like a 15 or 30 minute call with them. Yeah, that's all it is. And that's not the point of the story. But that's like, that's all it is. It's just you pay money to talk to people. It's consulting. And my buddy started it.

So he asked me to do it. So said, yeah, fine. I'll sign up. Whatever. So when you and I were in Miami, this man and woman, this husband and wife came up to me and like started talking to me about hypnotherapy because they knew that I was afraid to fly. I've got like I have a pretty hardcore claustrophobic thing. I don't take subways. I don't fly.

And I also have an addictive personality and I love sugar. And so they like knew that and they were trying to pitch me on like using their services. And they kept emailing me and I just, I ignore everyone. I don't reply to email really. And eventually they book a intro call with me. And I charge like, I put it at like two grand an hour. And they're like, hey, you're never answering our emails. And to be honest, when I met them, I did, you know, we do the, we do the,

nice thing when we meet people. Oh, yeah, you know, this sounds great. Like, you know, maybe I'll do it some time. Like, you're just trying to be polite. And I said, let's find a time. Yeah, let's run away from potentially talking to each other. Yeah. And they booked a call with me and they go, you said you're going to do it. We can't get you down. So we're just going to pay you money right now. And we're going to sit down and do a hip, what's it? What's it? What do you call? Hypnosis? I guess a hypnosis session. And I'm like, okay, I don't know what that's about, but I do it. And it kind of. And it kind of. has changed my like the game for me and so what yes and i'll explain to you what but uh i keep getting the words screwed up hypnotherapy what is it called hypnosis uh they uh this woman so she has an app her name is grace i think get grace dot com is like her app and then i don't know i think like grace dot tv if you go to get grace dot com i'm sure you'll see all about her her her name's grace and she told me she's like look here's the deal uh a handful of executives pay me a million dollars

a year to be their personal hypnotists. I'm not going to pay you that or I'm not going to charge you that. But if you like it, you have to tell people about it. I said, whatever, fine. But I'm not paying you a million dollars. She's like, that's fine. But you just let me give you five sessions. And if it changes you, let me know if you want to talk about it.

And so I do this, do this thing. It's totally worked. So basically what it is is, you know how you do breathwork and meditation? You just kind of like sit down and get quiet. and like you hear like a voice in your head like it's maybe it's your headphones it's Andy from headspace and he says like all right imagine like the sun is pouring on your mind or on your brain and it's leaking down to your body and causing you to like relax and you're filling with like relaxation whatever you basically do that but then she talks to you while you're in that state

you know that meditative state and she says things like you know imagine yourself on a beach in your safe space and imagine like there's four year old you and you're explaining to him how you're trying to overcome like you know the sugar I addiction or whatever the thing you're trying to overcome. And so, and tell me what you say to that person. So you're basically just like, you're getting spoken to and you're sometimes speaking back in a meditative state. Not like that interesting. When I did it, I was like, oh, like I thought I was going to be in a trance. But for some reason, this has been wildly effective. I think it could be placebo. I think it could not be, but I don't care. I haven't had sugar in like three weeks since I

started this. And I like, am like kind of an addict with that stuff. And it's like to the point where I get sick if I think about it. It's been. crazy fascinating. Wow. She gets all these people to pay her a million dollars a year. Is that the craziest? Who's paying, does she name names?

Who's paying her a million dollars a year? That sounds a little far-fetched. It does sound a bit far-fetched. On her website is the founder of Clearco. Clearco. What are they called? They're called? They're called Clearbank or something.

Yeah. They were. That guy is one of her testimonials. And then she told me other people who I actually don't know if I'm allowed to say who those other people are. Oh, yeah. That's fine. But do you believe?

Her website, yeah. Well, her website is grace smith TV.com. And on there, you could see testimonials from people. So could she be like kind of pulling my leg? Yeah. I mean, I didn't like look at her financials. Yes, 100%. But I don't know who.

I mean, would someone lie about that? She looks way different. For some reason, I imagine her to be like 70, but she's not. She's very young. So Grace Smith is the world's leading hypnotherapist. it is a seven-figure investment to work with Grace. Wow, that's amazing. You can work with her team for less

or download the Grace app for free. Okay, Grace app for free. That sounds promising. All right. So the founder of Clearbank. Wow. She's been on, you know, whatever. Something that looks like Jimmy Kimmel,

but it's like not. It's called the Noit with Denilo Gentili. Oh, it's the Brazilian version. It's the Brazilian version. It's the Brazilian version of Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. So, okay. So yours was around sugar or was around your flight?

We're going to address the flying thing later. But I was going to try and do sugar. And it's actually a bit effective. I'm shocked to say it's been effective. That's kind of crazy. I like it. And it makes me want to do it, which I think is probably, you know, pretty common. She told me to tell you that you can do it for free to if you want.

Oh, okay. Great. How do I get over my? What do I even have? I don't have as many. Yeah. The problem is that you're like emotionally healthy. So like I don't know if you have issues.

Get over this happiness thing I got every day. Yeah. So I don't know if like it's going to impact you. I don't know. Like if you have any diet. Yeah. It could be food related. Like, you know, do I really want that cheese pizza?

Maybe I'll just never eat a cheese pizza again after I talk to Grace. That could be kind of nice. It's just kind of interesting. But it could be a thing where it's like, man, I got to meet with this woman every week. And like if I tell her that I ate sugar, I'm going to feel like an it. So, I mean, that could be it. I don't know what it is, but it's kind of interesting. Well, I started using that my body tutor after you had mentioned it on the podcast. Did you really? They definitely had a bump. I signed up. I paid for it. So I was like,

all right, let's try this out. It's legit, right? For multiple weeks, it's super legit. I mean, it's like, there's no like hocus pocus. It's like straight up. Here's a kind of like a coach who's a nutritionist who's like going to really help you. So I have this woman, Haley, helping me. I don't know if she's the one same one do you have? I have Heather. Okay. So I don't know about Heather, but Haley's amazing. And so, and a lot of it's just like the basic psychology of accountability, right?

Like I tell her, I'm going to do something. And I take a photo of every meal. And I have to think to myself, am I going to either, A, be a big fat liar and just not take a picture of this like, you know, bag of cheese it's that I'm about to eat? Or am I going to take a picture of it and be like, yeah, I know I told you I was going to eat good. And then I just ate bad, even though clearly it could have just not. not eating bad, you know, not eating bad. And so it's helped so much to clear up, like,

you know, just like, I don't know, let's call it 30% or 40% of just random bullshit mistakes that I would have been making. Plus then there's the strategy. Like, okay, she gave me this that. I'll share a specific example. So like, she told me this thing. She goes, all right, I snapped a picture of a meal I ate. She goes, like, whoa, big meal. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, whatever. She's got, you know, her job is to kind of judge my meals, right okay fair and she's like do me a favor before you eat i want you to just on a scale of one to five just take take note just like at the beginning here i'm not going to change anything in her diet but just observe how hungry were you when you started the meal like if one is absolutely starving

and five is absolutely stuffed like were you starving when you decided to eat or were you um like a two or a three on the hunger scale and then when you were done were you like um so stuffed i need a nap or are you like, you know, okay, I'm full, I'm done. And she's like, don't change anything. Just like, give yourself a number before and after, after every meal. So I started doing it. And she's like, I was like, so what do I want like, you know, start at a two and end at a four? She's like, no, you kind of want to start at a three and ended a three.

Like, you know, you basically want to be like, okay, it's been about three hours. I think I'll like, I'll eat now. I think I could eat. I don't have to eat. But I could definitely eat right now. Because you're creating like patterns and being consistent. And when I'm done eating, it's like I don't stop eating when I can't physically eat anymore. I stop eating because, like, cool, like, I've had enough of my meal and I can move on.

I know that there's going to be more food in a couple hours. I don't need to, like, you know, stuff myself to the brim here. And so literally these, like, very small, like, nuances. So I'd notice, oh, man, I really do tend to eat bad when I get to a one because then I'm just like, I'm redlining. I got a, I just like, my decision making is very poor there. So I'm like, normally if I, like, eat out of two and I finish out of three, I'm, like, very proud of, like, those, all those meals.

So little things like that. or, you know, certain, like, hey, give me a grocery list. I'm going to a whole food. Just give me a grocery list. And I'm just going to buy only that shit. So I only have that to eat at home. Like, you know, let's make this simple. And so she gave me like an exact grocery list.

I went and bought all that stuff. I was like, oh, this is great. It's an amazing service. Yeah, my coach was like, anytime you want a snack because I would like snack a lot, she was like, get a baked potato, put it, a paper towel over it and rinse the bake, get it wet and just put it in microwave for five minutes and just eat that. And I started eating that. I'm like, oh, this is delicious.

This tastes wonderful. wonderful and it's only 150 calories. So I was like, what the fuck is a sweet potato? I didn't know what a sweet potato was. You know what I mean? That's what you call your girlfriend when you're in high school. It's like Dave Chappelle when they do switching spouses when the black guy goes with the white family and he goes, what the fuck is a parsnip?

Like he doesn't know what a parsnip is. I was like, I don't know what a fucking sweet potato is. Who's Renee Zell Wisher? That's what he says. Yeah, so anyway, it's been a good service. I like my body tour. It's good. Me too.

This is not an ad. We're not paid to do it. I genuinely like the product and it's helping me. Also, it's like $700 a month and I don't want to spend that anymore. But I said the only way I'm quitting is it when I hit. It's like $200, $250. I do the thing where they call you every single day. Oh, okay.

They call me every morning. And I can't cheat because my wife and family knows that I'm doing it. And they're like, oh, you're going to tell. Heather that you just ate that. I was the biggest thing. I had to make a decision. Am I, is this 100% honesty or is this 90% honesty or 60% honesty?

Like, you know, there are levels to this whole honesty thing. And so I was like, all right, I decided if I'm going to spend this money, I got to do 100% honesty. I don't know this person.

I've never met this person. Like, she's going to be my little confidant of every single thing I eat in the exact thing. Like, yeah, I did just put ranch on my potato. Like, that happened, you know, like, I can't explain it.

I just did it. And so I'm like, I got to take the actual photo of the actual thing every single time, no matter what. And I think that also, the commitment to actually doing it right is what actually makes you get a good result from things. Do you want me to keep going? You want to do another one? You want me to do another one? Yeah, let's go. All right.

Have you heard of Aviator Nation? No. All right. So this is this week's Billy of the Week. So basically, have you heard of Tom's shoes? Remember Tom's shoes? Of course. Buy one, give one type of thing.

You know, like the hibster shoes. Well, anyway, the guy who started it, his name was Blake. By the way, you go to Africa. Is everybody just running around and tell them shoes? They better be at this point. Yeah, at this point. 20 years, Tom. Yeah.

That's for sure. Tom shoes better be like the official shoe of like South Africa. They got to everyone should have a pair of time shoes. So her name is Paige. How do you say their last name, Mikoski? Blake, Mike. And so anyway, so her, this woman, Paige, and her brother is Blake, the guy started Tom's. They got kind of popular and they got seed money because they were on like this thing called,

you probably knew all about this, the amazing race. And so they like did that and got a little bit of seed money, whatever. So he starts Tom's. The same day, she starts a different company called Aviator Nation. Now, you are not in the target demographic of Aviator Nation. It's mostly women, particularly like young. high school and I think middle school girls. Like it's like a status symbol a little bit.

But basically she taught herself how to sew just like on YouTube. And she started going just like fairs, like Venice Beach flea markets and things like that. And she would sew like these interesting stripes on like old vintage sweatshirts. Like, you know, nothing like breathtaking, but kind of cool. And like she would be making like five or 10K a day every once in a while when she would go. And it was kind of working. And she bootstrapped this business to the point of 16 years. years later, she owns 100% of the company. In 2020, it did 70 million in revenue.

2021, 110 million in revenue. 2022, it's going to double again. So it's going to be north of 200 in revenue. And last year, she paid herself a $50 million dividend check. And she's buying a lot of real estate with it. And in this article I read, Forbes was like, we estimated that she's worth around $350 million. But she said the number is at least double that. And, you know, And she recently acquired her ninth property, a $15 million lakeside house in Austin. And she has other homes in Malibu, Venice Beach, Marina del Rey, in an Aspen ski chalet. And she says that if she didn't subscribe to my first million, none of this would have happened. That is fucking crazy, dude.

Yeah. She says she reads the milk road every day. Yeah. She subscribes and shares with friends. Like, unbelievable. Yeah, what a sweetheart. And have you ever heard of this business? I've never heard about this until Forbes did an article on it.

No. And this, I don't know why, but I'm almost mad. I don't even know what I'm mad at, but I'm just like this. Because you go to the website, you go to the website. And this literally could be like someone's school project. This could be like an Ali Express demo site. This could be. And I don't, I don't mean that to, to, to,

kind of shit on it, but I'm like, what am I looking at? This is basically like a shirt with four stripes on it. It's like a sweater with a lightning bolt. It's like a dude wearing black shorts with a yellow stripe on the side. And the short, wow, the shorts are $168. Yeah, so, and I forgot to add that. That's like the shtick, which is it's like sweatpants are $160. So like the items of clothing are a luxury brand.

Yeah, a little bit short of luxury. but like basically my friend Joe told me that his kids wear it or they always like are wanting it because they'll see girls in school wearing it and it's like $150 for a pair of sweatpants. And so it's a little... This is like the mystery box for me. Like how do you do this? How do you make something just like arbitrarily cool and in demand when it seems like there are a trillion alternatives to this?

And like I kind of get it when it's like established brands. It's like, oh yeah, well, you know, Louis Vuitton or whatever. They have this like history. of being seen as valuable, so therefore people will continue seeing it valuable. This is just like some woman at her dining table was like, no, you know what? Three stripes on the hoodie, $800.

This plan will work. And like somehow it did. I don't understand. Explain this to me. This is like makes my head hurt. Listen, in that book, what's Peter Thiel's book, Zero to One? He talks about like, he's like, there's like basically like these, I don't remember the words he used,

but he said like there's like a moat or like the truth. Like you have to know something that no one. else knows. And basically you have to like figure out some secret, some type of like technology that others haven't figured out. But he goes and Peter Thiel's like this kind of like autisticy like genius. And he's like the fifth one is branding, which I don't know anything about that. I don't know about cool, but I know that that's like important.

That's kind of like what he says in the book. He's like branding is like a moat, but like, you know, I don't know anything about moats. I just do technology. And I think that I've been chatting with a, remember how we had Sophia Amarosa on the on the on the pod? She's the woman who started nasty gal and she's got all these. other new projects going on. And like a woman like her, just everything she does to me, it's just like cool. It just looks. Well, when I met, when we, when we met her, I was like, oh, yeah, like, whatever you are selling, I'm buying. Like, uh, dig your vibe. You seem awesome.

Like, I don't know, you're wearing like six rings right now. I don't even own one. I feel like I should own six now. Like, I don't know what's happening. But like, I am drawn to your lifestyle, your charisma or whatever. And I think that's like the, you know, whatever. Like, you know, that works for nasty gal. I think it works for like goop and shit like that where it's like there's just something about certain tastemakers and trendsetters where you're like exactly all right I just want to like I just want to drink whatever you're drinking well if you google this woman page um she kind of has that vibe she's like the jessica simpson version of nasty gal like maybe a little bit like maybe like a little bit less like edgy but like still cool uh right you know like uh like just a little bit more like uh she always looks like

she just got back from Coachella. Yeah. Oh, you just got back? Yeah, like she's not going to do coke with you, but like she'll have like really good peach ice tea. But it's still like cool and like you always like,

you're like, oh, what the fuck is this hibiscus stuff? Like that type of the vibe. And anyway, I like her. I love this woman page. I've been reading all about her.

This company is really, really cool. And you're in the, you're in the e-com space. A bunch of our friends are in the e-com space and it's really hard right now. And I read about this woman and I was like, oh,

well, she sure makes it look kind of easy. It's kind of a thing. I think that's why I have such a big reaction to it because I'm an e-com. I'm just like, how? How the, oh, how do you do this? You know, you ramped up to 200 million in sales

with like the most competitive, common category, like shirts. Oh, no. Yeah. Okay, what makes your shirts good? They're just cool, you know? I'm like, yeah, yeah, but that doesn't count for 100 million. And it's like, actually it can if you really are cool enough and you build that grassroots thing.

What I want to learn, and I don't know if there's a way to even like figure out this backstory without doing a bunch of work. But like there is something to like the foundation of cool. Right. So like how do you build a foundation or like a ladder that will like, you know, started. It sounds like she went to festivals and she's in the first store was in Hayd Ashbury and in San Francisco. And it's like with the right group of people, you start getting going. and then it kind of like spreads from there. And I've never understood that when it comes to fashion.

I never understood how... But her brother has that too. So if you Google Blake Miyoski and you see like his house, like he's got like a vintage, like a vintage like Toyota Land Cruiser truck with like a golden retriever and like a cool like Pennington, Pendleton, whatever's called blanket, like laying over the hood and like skis on top of the truck in front of their Malibu. Like even though it's like, you know, they're just wealthy.

So it's maybe it's easy to like have all. that cool shit. There is like a sense of style that he's just always had. I think part of the cool thing is you're just, you're just good looking, to be honest. I think that's definitely like a factor. I think we got to the root of it. Right. I mean, like Brad Pitt could wear anything and then I could

wear the same clothing. It's just like he just looks better. He's just better looking. I mean, of course, like, he's cooler. But there is a few other things I think that that are a little bit more learnable and replicable when it comes to that. But these people definitely have it. It reminds me, so yesterday I was talking

to my mom and my mom's in town. My mom's like visiting my house. And I started doing this thing. I did a podcast with my mom where I was like, I really want to hear my mom's story. Like, because we all talk to our moms, but we don't like really talk. It's like surface level stuff or it's all about the kid and, you know, moms are great because they're like, you know, they're all about you. But like, how often do you really sit down and ask them questions about like them and how they grew up and what made them them? So I recorded this podcast with my mom because, you know, parents are getting older and I just always wanted to have it. It was amazing. And one of the things she had told me, I don't know if I shared the story on the podcast before,

but she had told me like her trip to America, like how she got here. And like, and it wasn't hardship like, it wasn't hardship like, oh my God, we, we were smuggled in and boats and like we had to like, you know, walk through the Rio Grande with just our nose above the water. Like it wasn't hard like that. It was hard in the way that's like very relatable in that just unknown. You just don't know what you don't know. And then you're in a situation and there's nobody to help you.

And so she talks. about like she got on the plane and like uh she saw the seatbelt they're like fashioner seatbelt ma'am and she's like you know like a plane seatbelt is not like any other seatbelt you've ever seen and she's like I don't know how she was like and she's just like clacking it together over and over and it's she just like goes in and like she was so happy like oh my god like thing number one done like I could do this and then she was like all right I'm flying to America like I don't want to miss my stop because she'd only ever been on a train so she's like wide awake for like 16 hours of a flight being like, when are they going to announce like the America stop and I need to

get off this, this plane. And like, she didn't know that a plane just like goes to one place and that's it. And there was like so many things. Like when she got to the place that she got to JFK or something like that, she needed to transfer to Pittsburgh. She just didn't know. She was like, I think I'm in America. Like I didn't really know beyond that. Like I have to get to Pittsburgh. What is a Pittsburgh? And she's like, um, how old was a guy? She was like 20 at the time. And she, like, her 20 is like today's like seven year old like because she had never been to a restaurant she couldn't speak english she um like she told me once she's like yeah right before i went to america she told me this yesterday she goes i went as like our school thing we went to a restaurant and i'd never eaten outside

of my house and so i was like oh okay uh and she's like there was like a fork and knife on the table and i didn't know like i knew what they were but i didn't know how you hold them and she's like i'm looking around everybody's doing it so fast and i'm like okay what are they doing with their like how do they pick this up like this up like this and She's like, I basically didn't eat. I paid for the most expensive meal of my life, and I didn't know how to get the food into my mouth. And I was so embarrassed to use my hands, I just didn't do it.

And so I was hearing these stories, and I was like, we all have these moments where, like, the world seems too mysterious for us. Like, it's just like, I don't know what this, this black box is like completely foreign to me. And I don't know how to operate it. And, like, her trip to America had like five of these. Like, she was talking about, like, when she finally got off the plane and the American guy had met her.

and it was like, okay, you clearly look like completely panicked. And he was like, do you know, like where you're going? Do you have family to come pick you up? And she's like, no, like, do you have somebody's phone number? Was she going to college or something? She was even younger. She was actually, she was 17. She started high school three days later in America when she came.

And so she came because if you come right before your 18th birthday, you're not an adult yet. So you have to do way less paperwork. So her dad, like, put her on a plane at 17. It was like, go. You're like, you're about to turn 18 in three days. Like, you need to get over there. and so her brother was here but here uh you know like she didn't know how to get to his house like she she didn't know like all the steps it takes to get there so this guy was like do you have her phone

number his phone number and she was like yeah yeah look I have a phone number and he's like okay let's go to this pay phone and he's like um and she was like I don't know what this is like I don't know what this device is and I don't have money and I don't know how to do this so he pays he puts quarters in and he calls and then she's like she talks to her brother and brother's like well you're here like I didn't even know you're coming like okay stay exactly where you are. Don't move. I will go to the airport and I will find you at the phone booth. Do not move like one step. And she's like,

okay. And she's like, the guy who had helped me like set up the phone call, he had to go catch his next flight or he was leaving. She could like read English, but she couldn't speak it. She had never practiced speaking. So she like, you know, was here and she's like oh shit. And so she was like, I, she was like, I'll never forget. She's like, I was trying to, like, I was done with the phone call, but I didn't understand how to hang up

the phone. I couldn't, like, I couldn't figure out how to get the pay phone back. Like, what was the original starting point. I didn't remember. And she's like, I remember I just like left it hanging, like the cord hanging and the phone was swinging. I like walked away and I was so scared. Like, the police are going to get me for what I just did. And she's like, everything was so new. Like, you know, on the way home, we stopped at a 7-Eleven. And I was like, this is a palace. Like, look at how much stuff is here. Look how bright these lights are. I've never seen lights so bright in my life. And like, you know, every little thing was so amazing. And so I say this for two reasons.

One is if you haven't done like the kind of like podcast with your mom, go do it. It's amazing. Even if you don't have a podcast, you don't need to publish it. Well, just like few people are going to have as good of a story as that. I don't know. Like I feel like everybody's got a story when you start to dig in. And then for my mom,

it was almost like she didn't think about this stuff. Like it was only like halfway through when I got to like the interesting bit because it was all like just so buried in her head. You know, what does she remember from 40 years ago? But then she did remember once I got like on the right. trail. But the other thing is like when I hear this story about this woman who, you know, just put stripes on a t-shirt and like grows it like crazy. And I'm saying that kind of like,

to me it looks so simple. But obviously there's more to it. I just don't know what the more to it is. And I'm sure there's people who listen to this podcast and they hear these things. I hear us talk about many things. And they're like, I feel like you guys say it like it's so obvious. But it's like completely not obvious to me. It's like, how do I hang up the pay phone? Like, how do I connect the seatbelt? Like, I. I don't know. That's okay. Like there is that everybody's got that black box. And then like later you look back and you laugh and you're like, I can't believe it.

You and I, you're, I don't, you're not an immigrant, but you and most all of my friends. And I think you as well, all of our friends are either immigrants or kids of immigrants. I feel like I'm like the only like not, not one of those that I'm close with. My wife is that. My family's that. you're that. And what you notice talking to these people. And a lot of, you and I are friends with a lot of immigrant entrepreneurs or children of immigrants and their entrepreneurs. And you, you like, I often wonder, I'm like, how are these people succeeding

when there's, it's, they're coming from a place where things were much harder. You know, like, I didn't learn how to, I didn't have to learn how to, you know, use a pay phone. I just knew. And you hear the story about your mom and you're like, well, that's why they succeed. so well because, well, she had to learn how to use a fork. Like, that's like, I imagine, like, pretty humiliating and you're frightened, you're frightened. You get on a plane to like, you know, it sounds like to her, it'd be as if you sent me to the moon. Mars. You know what I mean? You're like, what the hell? Like, I don't know. I don't know anything. And it's like, well, okay, I, like landed, I found my brother somehow. Like, what's the worst that could happen?

They're going to send me back to this place. I mean, like, you know, it can't be that bad, failing at least. And so when you talk about people who are like, well, I don't know what to do, it's like, yeah, but like, it's kind of straightforward. You just can't really be afraid to do it because like the worst that's going to happen is not that bad. Like, you know what I mean?

If this woman from India can come knowing nothing and she ends with like this big family and she's, your parents are pretty successful. Like it can work out if you just kind of take a little bit of risk. It's pretty inspiring. Our software is the worst. Have you heard of pubs? Spot? See, most CRMs are a cobbled together mess, but HubSpot is easy to adopt and actually

looks gorgeous. I think I love our new CRM. Our software is the best. HubSpot, grow better. Yeah, I think that's where two common immigrant traits come from. Number one, like a willingness to grind it out in a way that's like, nothing is beneath me, you know, like, okay, like she was like, you know, two weeks later, I had a job as a waitress. Like, the person who had never been to a restaurant, now was hired as a waitress in America and couldn't speak English. And she's like, my brother was like, how the hell did you get a job? And she's like, I don't know. You said we needed a job.

And so like I just kept going to different places every like hour. I just went to a different place to interview. And this one liked me and they just gave me the job. And like, okay, I have to go at like four in the morning before school and like, I'm going to help clean the stuff. And then I'm going to go at night. And like, that's what I'll do. And so you get this like grit side. But then you also get the like kind of like, why.

are immigrants so cheap? It's because like they've operated with no safety net before. And so now when they have some resources, they're like, don't squander them. We remember what it was like to have no resources with no back, no net to catch you if you fall. And so like, yeah, don't like spend too much. Even once like a lot of immigrant parents end up in America, like they end up getting rich, but they still live very cheaply. And I think it's because like if you've lived, it's like, you know, somebody who's like, I don't know, they like grew up in the woods. And it's like, why do you sleep on the floor still? It's like, I just do, okay?

Like, don't ask me too many questions. It's like, I know I have a bed now, but like I don't need the bed. I don't want to use that right now because I feel like, you know, anything could happen right now. And so a lot of my, the same fear. And a lot of my friend, so my mother-in-law is from Haiti and I would talk to her. So she, did I tell you how she started this pillow business? I don't know how big it is exactly, but I imagine mid six figures. And she took, she asked me to drive me two hours to the airport.

And I was like, why? She's like, I want to ask you how Shopify works. I think I want to create an online store where I sell these pillows. And I'm like, all right, whatever. I'll explain to you how to do it. But like people ask me this all the time. They never follow up and they never do anything. And so she calls me six weeks later.

She's like, all right, I got my first sale. Now what? It's like, oh, my God. And I was talking to her. And the way that they would describe it, you know, my in-law, my in-laws as well as to my other immigrant friends, it's kind of like, what's interesting is when you take like these immigrants and you put them in America where there's like a pretty strict rules and laws, like, and like mostly the government can't take things from you.

And like your stuff is mostly protected. It's like, well, this is easy. This is an easy mode. Like, we all know the rules and we know that people are mostly all going to follow the rules. Like, this is easy. This is just a board game. Like, you just got to play it. And so I'm always inspired hanging out with those types of people.

Yeah, for sure. Me too. You said something just now, which is like, I think is an important little, thing, which was, I tell people this stuff all the time and like very few take action. Like, most people just don't do anything with this. I've been kind of, I've been admiring. There's been a bunch of people who've built cool shit for us that like, I just want to call out is kind of awesome.

And I don't know where it leads. And I like that they did it knowing not where it leads, but something good is going to happen. I'll give you a couple examples. Somebody created this thing. I don't know if you saw it. They put it on Product Hunt. It's like the MFF ideas system.

I wish I knew the link off top of my head. but if you go to ProductNet, you search my first million. Basically, he went in indexed, like, I don't know, 30 or 40% of all of the different ideas we've said on this podcast. Well, we're like, oh, MailChimp, but for inside your company, because you need to write internal newsletters, blah, blah, blah. And so they'll take that idea. He timestamped it.

And so you can go to the website, and it'll be like, give me an idea. And it'll give you an idea. And then it says, listen to it. And you click it, and it opens up in Spotify or whatever, some player, like, exactly where we talked about that idea. And I was like, wow, this is so awesome for us, but also for anybody who's a fan of the podcast. And immediately I was like drawn to this person.

And it's such a, it's such a hack to stand out just by like doing a useful thing. And there's so much energy that gets spent like reading books, listening to podcasts, like asking people for advice. You know, and it's like, dude, you know, instead spend actually like a one third of the time. and actually like build something or make something that's like kind of interesting. That will get you so much further.

There's another guy who built this thing called write like shan.com. Have you seen this? That was really good. It was great. This guy created this thing. He trained GPT3 like the AI model or whatever to on a bunch of my Twitter threads

and he goes, oh yeah, I trained this AI to write like you. So watch, you can just type in any topic and it'll spit out a Twitter thread. And I was like, okay. Yeah, I did it. It was awesome. It was great.

It's actually awesome. this guy, someone put it in there. Let me find it. He put in, I'm going to pull this up for a second. It's pretty amazing how the language, like it is like you. I put something in there and like the cadence sounded exactly like you. So, okay, so this person, where's the one? Somebody wrote how to pick up girls or whatever.

Somebody wrote how to be happy. And then it goes, you don't find happiness. You create it. Most people go through life searching for happiness. They think that when they find the right job, right relationship, right house, they'll finally be happy. But the truth is happiness comes from then. Here's how you create it yourself. Number one, do something that makes you happy every day.

It doesn't have to be big, it can be small. Like, this is a fucking computer that's writing a very realistic, you know, looking thing. Here's another one. Why we don't do public math, right? Somebody's a fan of the podcast. He goes, we don't do public math. Think about it. When's the last time you did math in public?

I mean, really did math. Addition, subtraction. Multiification, not mental math, but using your fingers, a calculator or a piece of paper. When's the last time you saw someone do math in public? It's almost like we're ashamed of it. We don't want people to see a struggle at math. We think they'll think we're stupid. But the truth is math is hard, and it's normal to struggle with it.

So let's start doing public math. It like changes our whole perspective by the end. Let's practice public math, period. How can I make one of those? Because I would like to do that for my stuff and just still write emails for me. So what do you do? you just like tell gpd3 to read all of your tweets and it gets to know you we should just get this guy so this guy odd little pickle is his name uh is his like twitter handle i told him because i i put it

in my newsletter i was like check this out this is awesome and it like crashed his site and it ran up a thousand dollar bill before it crashed the site he's like oh no my side project i was like dude i'll like i'll pay your bill just let me own the thing and i'll pay your bill like it's my it's right like john i'll buy it off you and then you don't have to worry about this stuff um and so because i I think it'd be cool to like, like, I love John Steinbeck. I've been reading, you know, you don't even know who that is, do you? Famous American author, whatever. A classic American author.

Like, you know, like the, he's like from the crew that wrote like, Catcher in the Ride, that type of crap. I would love to, like, write my marketing emails like those guys. And I think it'd be cool if I could, if I could figure out how to like teach GPD3. What, um, you want to go to a different time? crying in the background. I don't know if you could hear it. It's all right. What topics you want to go to? Well, there is a couple others on this like GPT3 thing.

Yeah. So basically like this, the AI has gotten really, really good at really specific things. Like, I don't know. Have you played with Dolly? That's the other one that's incredible. That is the craziest shit on earth. That is way crazier than GPT3. Dolly is basically the, it's the picture version of this. You just type in any concept. It's like Sampar surfing while smoking a cigarette

And it'll generate like 12 pictures Like AI illustrates Sampar on a surfboard Smoking a cigarette It'll give you a bunch of variations. Dude, I told it to do wild shit. I said do real life grown up Cartman and Bart Simpson And it made a real life Like it looked like a photograph

Of what a grown up Cartman from South Park A cartoon looked like. It was crazy. It is so impressive. And this is like the demo version. It's not even the real version. I'm going to start doing a thing. There's this company I want to invest in that does this with voices.

And so basically he sent me a clip of Gary Vee reading the Milk Road. So it's like, you know, it goes, good morning. You know, and it's like in the Gary Vee voice, it read the thing. And it sounds exactly like Gary Vee. And then he's like, here's Jordan Peterson doing it. Here's Joe Rogan doing it. Here's Gary V doing it. And he's like, if you give me like 16 hours of like your podcast audio data, like I'll just,

I can make your voice like a synthetic voice. So then you could like you could just type something and it'll do it'll record the audio for you the way you talk. And I was like, what in the world is going on? So this stuff is so amazing to me. It's really captured my fascination. And it's just the beginning. Like this is going to get so much better.

And it has all kinds of crazy implications. Like, hey, you're not going to know what's real and what's fake. Like because fake and real are going to be like indistency. distinguishable, like a deep fake video or like a Photoshop photo, but for everything, for voices, for videos, for drawings, for whatever, Twitter threads. Like, it's not unreasonable that, like, most of the content you read on the internet is just going to be written by computers. Dude, like, you're going to go on Twitter.

It's just going to be auto-generated content from brands and people that are, you know, just plugging it into the AI and AI is spitting out good content for us all to consume. Like, we may not have Hollywood at some point. It'll just be like computers making movies and the rest of us just. like, you know, wall, what's that movie where they're like

fat people sitting in wheelchairs and just like sucking down slurpees and watching stuff, it'll just be that because it's like, oh, we don't need to do

the work to make stuff anymore. So the computers make awesome movies. We just watch them. Dude, let me tell you a quick story as we kind of wrap up real quick about, you know how like,

you know, it's not, for a little while it's been not cool to live in a city lately and it's been cool to live in like less popular places,

like in Portland, Austin, that type of thing. Last night, I went to a wedding. It was my wife's buddy's wedding. So they weren't like, you know, my friend. They weren't like what I thought, like, you know, our startup e nerdy friends. And I sat at this table and listened to my table. I didn't know who any of these people were. We just started chitch chatting. The person next to me started a business that had raised $30 million at a startup. And all these people

are about 28 years old. Had raised like $30 million. The person next to them had a company that in two years hired 300 people. The person next to them had a startup that they sold for $140 million. The person next to them had a VC fund that had a billion dollars raised. And this person graduated college in 2009. So however old you are, 33 with that. And then the person next to them was a partner at one of the biggest management consulting firms. And so it's like mostly like... And then there's some poor like English teacher in the middle who's just like, what is this? Come on. Come on. Let me do it here. I'm the one doing real work out here. So no one was dushy at all. So the reason why I even knew that was because they had seen Sarah

post about me and they're like, oh, you do the podcast about startups. I was like, oh, yeah, okay, so you must be in startups too. Yeah, I work at this company. Oh, what do you do there? Oh, I actually started it. So like, they're trying to, they're being cool about it. So it was pretty inspiring to be around these people. I'm used to like, you know, sometimes being like a big shot sometimes amongst my my like non-entrepreneurial friend group and I go around these people and I'm like oh my God like this is like incredibly motivating I actually think that there's a world where it's a little unhealthy because you're like you know like this money shit doesn't actually matter that much but it's so it's kind of bullshit that I'm like comparing myself to others but it's

incredibly incredibly motivating and that's something that I miss about San Francisco and we had that for a little while. Yeah, that was the best part about San Francisco by far. Like, people would be like, how's San Francisco? It's like, oh, well, the city is basically Gotham City. You know, it's cold. It's not actually like warm California weather. You know, it's super expensive.

It's, you know, all these things. But the upside is like, you know, if you want to hang out with some of the most ambitious, interesting people who like look at the world a little differently and are kind of crazy enough to go pursue it, you're just going to keep bumping into them, like, everywhere you go regardless of what you're doing. And sure enough, your brain will start to change to be more like them. Dude, what's funny is I feel like our friends weren't even ambitious. Like, you know, like, Jack Smith is not an ambitious person. He just like works on interesting things and just so happens that they become huge money making operations. Or like, we have a few

friends that are ambitious. But then we have a bunch of friends that's just like, I don't think. Jack, I think is more of an outlier. Jack is more like, just like curious and mischievous more than he is ambitious. But I don't think most people are like Jack. I think Jack's a bit of an outlier. I don't consider myself to be ambitious. Do you consider yourself to be ambitious? You are ambitious.

Yes, you are. I don't consider a lot of our friends to be ambitious. I'm just like, we're just like doing interesting things. And it just so happens that the output is. Yeah, but yours is like, okay, Jacks is like, I like doing interesting things as in, like, he'll build a ergonomic chair in his garage to like see what that's like. Your version is like, I like just doing interesting things that are highly profitable. And like, you know, there's a.

There's like an important caveat to you're like, you're not like just reading novels from like, you know, 18th century. You're like, okay, how do I, you know, spin up this thing that's going to get to six figures in revenue very quickly, right? Like that's your version of what's interesting. It's what's interesting to you is kind of the hook, right? So like what's interesting to people like, okay, Furkan, I would say is very ambitious. He's not very money minded, right? Ambition is not money. It's like, but he's like super interested in new tech.

And so, you know, our office would have like, oh, you know, here's this, why is, why doesn't the TV remote work? Oh, sorry, I changed the, I like took the chip out of the TV and I put a Raspberry Pi in. It's like, why can't I use this beer tap? Oh, because I put a fucking like drone that floats above it and like, you know, what is this? Where's my computer? It's like, oh, I needed a place to put my 3D printer. And like eight out of those turned out to be just like, you know, money sucks. Like there was no commercial value in the Raspberry Pi or the many drones or the 3D printing.

or any of that stuff. It was just like the fifth one where he's like, yeah, I'm playing around with this like crypto thing. You know, this thing,

how Ethereum just came out. And it's like, just happened to be that that one was like, one that turned out to be extremely profitable and like, you know,

changed the world in a bigger way. But, you know, the interest was in, let's say for him, tech. Or like, our buddy Xavier is just like, dude,

how do I provide electricity to people in Africa who don't have it? Right. That's ambition in a different way. Right. And that was inspiring, right?

Like, I was like, holy shit, you're the biggest solar provider in Africa. But I guess what I mean is like in New York, I noticed that the ambition is like, let me crawl up this ladder and climb to the top of the ladder

because I want to be number one and I'm going to kick other people off the ladder and make sure I stomp on their faces I'm going up so they can't get as high as I am. Right. Whereas it seems that maybe I'm just being like, just I just think our shit don't stink, which is it's more like,

let's create new ladders. You know what I mean? Let's just make our own ladder. It's like here's the test of New York. It's like, do you know which finger can take the least amount of pressure before it gives up its grip? It's like, yeah, step on the ring finger. They're done. And it's like, whereas in San Francisco, it's a little bit different.

In San Francisco, the virtue signaling is different. Like what you get rewarded for is different. You get rewarded for, I'm solving some big problem at scale, billion users, billion dollar prize. That's what you're going for. And it's okay. Like, you're high status if you're broke, but going for a big, big prize. Whereas in New York, you don't get high status for broke. Like, it's like, no, in San Francisco, it's like,

make it or not. The guy with the biggest ratio of wealth to poor looking is like the winner. You know, like you have to be like the most raggedy-looking dude with the most amount of money. Yeah. Yeah. Make the most money and then give up all your possessions and live on the street. Like that is the like peak, right? That's like, Jack, go look at Jack Dorsey. It's like, okay, you build two multi-billion dollar companies, but then you grow up.

a homeless man beard and you like pretend you don't care about it you give all your money away and you wear a tie-dye t-shirt and like you know you carry around a notebook and like that's you know while you walk barefoot it's like that that's the highest status like person you can be in silicon valley what did you think of the peter levels podcast i thought it was dope like i think he's great uh i like him like you know um i always liked his content but i like him i didn't know him um and i like the way he thinks I like the way he acts. I thought he was pretty honest. Like, he didn't come on here and try to perform. And he got the vibe. He got the, you know, I think he's a hit. He's a hit. I like him.

There's a handful of people who we were friends with and who we've talked to publicly who I think I would put in the category of like, oh, they've kind of figured it out. And of course, they're flawed and they make mistakes and they're not always happy and whatever, just like normal humans. But like in general, they've kind of got it figured out. I would say Darmesh is in that category where it's like, Oh, man, you've like, you have a lot of the boxes checked of. Like, you seem happy. You seem like he got a good family. Your career is good. Jack Smith, our good buddy is another one of those people.

He started a company that he sold for $800 million, but like he's not that. Like, he doesn't really care about that and he'll never tell you about it unless you ask about it. But he's happy and healthy. And then this guy levels, Peter levels, I would put him in the same category where it's like, you kind of like seem like you know what you want and you stick with it and you have principles and you're achieving exactly your ideal life. And that makes me happy. You know the tell that I figured out?

Like what's the quickest way for me to pick up on is that person like those people? Like some of our favorite people are like that. I put Suli in that category. I put Furcon in that category. I put a bunch of Ramones in that category. It's what percent of your like kind of when you talk about yourself or what you're doing, what percent? There's two tests.

One is what percent of a conversation do you talk about yourself versus you ask questions or you're interested and curious about other things, other people, other things. And the second is, when you talk about yourself, what percent is talking about the past stuff you've done versus stuff you're interested in doing or the future? And it sounds very simple, but if you go to their bios,

very few of them even have their last company in their bio. Whereas if you go to my bio, it's like, sold bebo, right? Like, number one, the first thing I write in there is like, sold the thing. You know, like, I've done something cool. Please ask me about it. I love to tell you about my wins. You're fairly close to being in that category of like, I feel like you know what you want.

And even if you don't get what you want, you're still mostly happy. Yeah. And the thing that's helped me is like I'm getting away from doing that. I'm getting away from basically trying to like seek validation in some way. And then the second is like that that's why we talk about our past, right? To like kind of like give ourselves some status or get some validation from others. It's like, you know, here's my background. Here's what I've done.

Therefore, please give me some respect and whatever else. And once I picked up that these other guys do that very differently, I started to shed that. It's like somebody will bring something up in a conversation. I think of an anecdote where I can tell them a really cool story of how I've done that. And I'm just like, well, that doesn't actually add to the conversation. They're already convinced. Why do I need to do that? I don't need to perform here.

It's fine. And so I let that go. And that thought never used to be let go. It always used to be something I would immediately jump in at any opportunity. to kind of like, you know, hey, can you validate my parking here? Here's my ticket stuff. Can you please punch a hole in it? And like that's how I felt like I was doing stuff.

And then I noticed these guys don't do that. And I remember asking Suli, I go, I feel like you never, I kind of have to brag for you when we meet people because like, dude, they don't even know who you are. They don't know you're like how much of a hitter you are. And you want to look and Sean wants to look cooler that he's associated with Suley and bring it. Why did I bring this guy to this meeting? Because this guy's fucking awesome. And like, hold on.

You didn't do it. You didn't brag. Let me brag. Yeah. And I was like, I was like, why do you do that? I was like, I was like,

I also feel like you don't even talk about or think about like all the stuff you've done in the past. And like, he was like, he was like, yeah, I don't know,

I don't really do, I don't really feel the need to. He's like, you know, I heard Kobe Bryant give a talk once. And he's like, it was after Kobe retired. And he was talking about like the new shit he was into.

He's like, because I don't know if you know, Kobe started like making little mini movies and like, he like got really into storytelling and movies. And like that was like what he wanted to do, right? Great stories. Like kids movies and stuff. Yeah. And so he was like creating, he created like a production company. And Kobe had said something that was like, I need my next 20 years to make my last 20 years like a footnote.

Like the next 20 years need to be the best thing I've ever done. And this is coming from one of the greatest Hall of Fame basketball players. Whereas if you see what most players do when they retire, they go put on a suit, they put on 30 pounds. And then they go sit at an ESPN desk. And they talk about how the players these days don't get it back in my day. we used to be so great. And they never, like, move on to the next great adventure. And they don't, they think it's implicit that the best work of their life was behind them.

And that's why they gained the weight. That's why they aren't as happy. That's why they're nostalgic for the good old days. Whereas somebody who looks at it like, oh, this next chapter is my best chapter. And that's a different, that person's going to like go through life a little differently. And so he told me, he's like, when I heard that, I thought the same thing. Like, oh, yeah, great. my next company needs to make my last company be this like little afterthought.

Like we'll put it in the appendix of like stuff I'm done. And if I think about it that way, then I won't put so much emphasis on it. I won't use it as my crutch as like a way to get kind of respect or attention or anything like that. I'm going to only make my new thing the way I do it. And I really respected that. I was like, that's great. Have you heard the song, Damn, it Feels Good to Be a Gangster? Of course.

Basically. And one of the lines, he says, real gangses don't flex nuts because they know they got them. And that's what we're talking about here. You don't flex nuts because you know you got them. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think that's the episode.