My First Million - Why Balance Is the Enemy of Greatness | David Senra

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Get Sam's top 7 books for entrepreneurs (+ his reading strategy): https://clickhubspot.com/gds Episode 784:  Sam Parr ( ⁠https://x.com/theSamParr⁠ ) sits down with David Senra ( https://x.com/FoundersPodcast ) to talk about greatness, balance and what destroys successful people.  Show Notes: (0:00) Intro (1:22) Balance is the enemy of greatness (9:13) How to remember what you learn (17:10) Revenge for Being Born & Reframing the Inner Critic (26:40) Success, Relationships, and What Destroys Great People (30:55) Advice for 19-Year-Olds (34:42) David’s ideal board of advisors (39:20) Don’t Do Anything Someone Else Can Do (44:05) what successful people really think about at the end (48:30) Compounding wisdom — Links: • Founders Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/@founderspodcast1  — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com  • Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents. • Mercury - Need a bank for your company? Go check out Mercury (mercury.com). Shaan uses it for all of his companies! Mercury is a financial technology company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N.A., and Evolve Bank & Trust, Members FDIC — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano /

Sometimes I think I should shut up and not say the things I say on podcasts. David Senra. David Senra. The guy's name is David Senra. He's got a podcast called Founders. To even get on Founders' Podcasts, you have to be so good at your job. Somebody wrote a fucking book about it. That's an insanely high ball.

It's almost like it's an obsession. It is. I'm addicted. I've known you now for, I don't know, four or five years. I think you are crazier now than you were. I'm not balanced. I don't think I can be balanced. I don't think I want to be balanced.

I want to be the best in the world. world at what I do. People are like, oh, 10,000 hours. I'm way past that. Like, way past that. So, of course, I've changed. I'm not doing this to stay the same. The difference between the world's greatest and pretty good, it's not a little bit better. It's not 20% better. It's like thousand times better. And that is hard to grasp. Mediocrity is invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. I've become intolerable for people that are casual. And I don't even know why I'm like that. I think I was lying to myself for a while that I've been. I don't need anybody else.

I wanted professional success to say I was born in the wrong environment and I will prove to you that I am not like the rest of these people. It's almost like a revenge for being born. Are you a happy person? I don't think you're happy. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days on.

On the road, let's travel. You have to look this guy, Elud Kipchogi. You have to see what he looks like. He looks more like a gazelle than a human being. Because the thing about world-class athletes and runners is you see them like when they're exerting themselves and like wearing their like running gear or whatever. And so they're like, yeah, he looks amazing. But then you see him in real clothes and you're like, oh my God, that person is so much skinnier, has so much less body fat than the average show. How on earth are these two human beings, both human beings, like a normal person versus Elude?

And so he runs the marathon and think of like 201, which is like 436, I think, for the mild, crazy fast. And what we were saying was the difference between the world's greatest or the best there ever was, and pretty good, you know, it's not a little bit better. It's not 20% better. It's like 10 times better or 100 times better. Or 1,000. Or 1,000 times better. And that is hard to grasp. Do you agree?

Yeah, I mean, you asked me, like, what am I think? Right before we started recording, you saw what I was doing it? Like, what are you thinking about? And I was like, I'm thinking about how this looks. And he's like, but does that matter? It was like, everything matters. Like, we're trying to be the best in the world at what we're doing. So, like, we have to take everything very, very seriously.

I think the only thing I'm obsessed with, There's actually one of the best pieces of advice I ever got that I won't shut up about, and I think about literally probably every day now, is this idea of constant refinement of association that my friend Jared Kushner told me. And Jared is unbelievably honest. There's a great line in, I just finished, we were talking upstairs, I just finished reading Bruce Springsteen's autobiography. And there's a great line.

He talks about his deep friendship that he has with Jimmy Iveen. And he's like, you want Jimmy in the room because he'll tell you the truth. Like, everybody around Bruce is kissing his ass and like, Jimmy's just like, this album sucks or this is great. You like trust his judgment. And Jared's like that too, where he's just like, if he's your friend and he likes you, he's very kind, but he was like, hey, what you're doing is not good enough for you. This person is not good enough for you.

Be careful with this. And so this constant reframing association is important because as you keep getting better at what you do, you get access to people that are great at what they do too. And there's a lot of commonalities between them. And then once you're exposed to that, I always have this line that mediocrity is invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. I've become intolerable for, like, people that are casual the way they push their work, or the friends they choose to hang out with, are just anything that is not them striving for excellence.

And I don't even know why I'm like that. It's just I have to be, I want to be, I have to be the best in the world at what I'm doing. And so that is what I'm trying. Or did you become like that because you've studied 400 biographies of greatness? That's a great question. I don't know. Michael Dell has this great line in his autobiography where, you know, at the time, he's 19 years old. he's in his dorm room at the University of Texas.

He's got $1,000, and he's like, I'm going to compete with IBM. That is delusional. IBM at the time is the most valuable company in the world. It was the first company. I didn't even know. I had to go back and research this. The first company to get to $100 billion market cap in history was IBM. And you have this kid that's like, I'm going to compete head to head with them.

And the next line when he's talking about this is, was I a little full of myself at 19? Sure I was. I think you have to be to do anything special. So I always had this like deep, just like delusional self-confidence and like default optimism that like, if I focus on something, I will figure it out. I will figure out how to do this. But I also think it's impossible. Like I've obviously changed. I've been doing the other, I've been doing founders podcast for almost 10 years.

It's like, I think I'm like, I don't know, 407 of these books by far. That's hundreds of thousands of pages. That is people like, oh, 10,000 hours. I'm way past that. So of course I've changed. I'm not doing this to stay the same. Well, I've known you now for, I don't know, four or five years, and I've listened to you for longer than that.

I think you are crazier now than you were. I think you are more obsessed now than you were. Sometimes I think I should shut up and not say the things I say on podcasts because I don't like having a filter. I don't like having two different sides of me. It makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. And so then I'm like, you know what, I'm just not going to hold back. I'm just going to say this.

I just did this when I went on Tim Ferriss's podcast. And I talked about, Tim didn't tell me what we were going to talk about other than he told my team. He's like, please tell David. David not to curse so much. That's what I told you five years ago. And I don't think that came from Tim. I think they came from Tim's team. And I think we did.

We accomplished that goal. But he started asking questions and I, like, hesitated for a half a second in my mind or half a minute. I'm like, man, I should not say this stuff. I don't, this is going to be bad. And I just let it go. And since then, I was just on the phone. I won't say who I was talking to, but it's a founder of a public company.

He's relatively young, wildly successful. And he was just like, hey, I listened to your Tim Ferriss. interview and he's like, I know exactly what you're talking about because like I went through that too. And you hear that over and over again. So to ask your question, like, am I crazier? Is that the term that you use are like more intense? I think I was lying to myself for a while. And if you look at episode 222 of Founders podcast, says Ed Thorpe, and in parentheses it says my personal blueprint. And Ed Thor is a legit genius. I am not a genius. Like whatever he directed his talents to, he was going to succeed because he's a legitimate, like, I think, fundamental, like, genius.

And what I liked about him is, like, he was, like, a real balanced person. You would love him. Yeah. Because you are like this. And I think you're truly like this. We, a lot of our conversations are like this where, like, essentially, like, bounded his professional life. He was very successful. I'll give, like, a quick TLDR of his life. Uh, he was the person that invented, like, how to count cards in blackjack. He was a mathematician and he was a mathematician and he was a professor for a long time. He wrote a book called Beat the Dealer, which tells you how to, account cards, like the 1960s sold millions of copies. He started the first quantitative hedge fund of all time. He was like one of the first investors in Burchard Hathaway. He meets Warren Buffett

when they're both in the 30s and he gets in the car and he's like, that guy's going to be the richest person in the world one day. And he invented the world's first handheld wearable computer with Claude Shannon, who's the father of information theory and another genius. It's just like, how did one guy do all this stuff? Yeah, like the Forrest Gump of like finance. That's a great way to think about it. And so, but he was also like, he came from a real mess. the family. He got into like weightlifting and like taking care of his health before there was anything like bodybuilding. And he said an hour, the way he's figured this out, he was in college time, he's like, well, the way I think about this. And at every hour that I spend in the gym working on my

health now is one less day in the hospital when I'm 80 or 90. He went on Tim Ferriss's show and you look at him and I show a picture. So like, how old do you think this guy is? He'll go, he's like 60. It's like 92 or 90 or however old he is. So anyways, his whole thing was like, I want to balance life. he would work, you know, nine to five, thereabouts. Then he would spend time on his health, his work, his family, and then he'd like to have fun. And it was much more balanced life. And then he also did something which was fascinating where once he made more money than he could ever spend in his lifetime, he also didn't like to travel like you. He has this beautiful house in Newport, California.

Every time he travels, he's just a downgrade. Like, why did I leave my house? Once he started, had enough money that he didn't need more money. he stopped trading time for money. And he had like, you know, these are like layups. I could make $30 million on, you know, investing in this oil thing or whatever the case is. It's just like, whoa, what's the point? And so for a long time, because by that time, I'd read, you know, 200 of these books.

And I was like, oh, he's like an outlier and an outlier. Like, most of these people are like just singularly obsessed in their work. And so for a long time, like, I think I was lying to myself like, yeah, I want to balance life. And it's just like, no, I'm not balanced. I don't think I can be balanced. I don't think I want to be balanced. I want to be the best in the world at what I do. And again, I narrowly define that.

I'm not trying to, you know, I think the narrow definition is important. And that's kind of what I think about all the day. That's what kind of drives me. That is when I feel comfortable. And maybe I'll change in the future, but like I am fundamentally uncomfortable, not working towards some kind of professional goal. All right, I read a ton. I would say almost a book a week.

And the reason I read some of my, much is because my philosophy towards reading is I want to see what worked for the winners that I love and what strategies they use. And then I want to see what mistakes did they all make, where were the common flaws that they all had. And I just want to avoid that. And so HubSpot asked me to put together a list of the books that have changed my life so far in 2025. And I did that. So I listed out seven books that made a meaningful difference in my life. And I explained what the difference is that they had on me or what actions I took because of the book. And then also I listed out my very particular ways of reading because I'm pretty strategic about how I read and how I read so

much and how I remember what I read and things like that. And so I put this together in a very simple guide. It's seven books that had a huge impact on my life. And you can scan the QR code below if you want to read it or there's a link. You guys know what to do it. There's a link in the description. Just go ahead and click it and you'll see the guide that I made. So it's the seven books that had a massive change in my life this year so far. And then also how I'm able to read so much. So check it out below. So I read a lot. I read one to four books a month, mostly history.

You do more or the same. How do you become sensitive enough when you read something to know that that is a point that is worth remembering? Because there's been so many times where I've read something and I will forget it, right? I'm reading a, like, I love the American Revolution and then like I'll reread books. I'm like, I didn't even remember about this or that. You do a really good job at Recall. you've done it many times here, and you do a really good job

bringing the points of the story that actually matter. And I think this is an important lesson to learn of how do you be sensitive enough to see what is important and what isn't and then use that to change your life? I was like a big believer in intuition and just like this constant refinement

of your own taste. Like I'm sure I did not have that skill in September 2016 when I started nearly to the degree that I have it now. Right before Kobe Bryant died, he was asked this question about like what he sees in like Steph Curry that it makes him such a like formidable competitor.

And he's like there's like a calm, this is Kobe describing Steph Curry. He's like there's like a calmness about him. And he's like, and when you match this like calmness and belief in what his skill set is with his intense desire and work ethic to practice and to get better, like that is a very dangerous combination.

And what he was referring to was Steph says people always ask me what I think about when I'm shooting. And he goes, absolutely nothing. And so I don't overthink this. I read the book. If something, it's all intuition. It's dislined is speaking to me. This is jumping out to me.

I'm going to underline it. And I'm going to jot down on notes exactly what came to my mind right now. Do not overthink this. Just like you know this stuff over and over again. Because like we see Steph hitting a crazy three-pointer. in the Olympics, like to win, you know, I watched that clip the other day. We don't see the million other times he was alone shooting the three. I always say the public praises people for what they practice in private. The other thing about this taste, what I realized is when I talk to a lot of other

people that are really great at what they do, other entrepreneurs, people that want to be great at what they do but aren't yet. I was like, they're trying to figure it's like, why am I not breaking through? It's like, because you don't, you're not actually interested in this. Like, you are lying to yourself. I am intensely interested in this. You can, ask my partner, Rob, we go through this all the time with the new show about like, hey, let's get this person. And like, that person's like a big name. And I'm like, I just don't give a shit. And I'm like, but this is the way I think about my work. Okay. Like, the only way I'm going to do this for the rest of my life is if I'm doing it for the right reasons. And so I cannot overcomplicate things. Munger has this line where he says

something about like the hardest thing to do is to remember why you set out doing what you're doing and to keep things simple, right? And to do that for a very long time. So the way I think about it's like, Founders is the books that I'm intensely interested in reading, right? Not just a book that I think is going to be a lot of downloads. There's been times where like, I was like, read this book. I read it. I hate that guy and I throw the book across, literally throw the book across the room. I was like, I'm not, I don't want to spend a week in that guy's mind.

Founders is the books I'm intensely interested in wanting to read and enjoy reading. And the new show, David Senator, is the people I'm intensely interested in having conversations with. I was on the phone with somebody yesterday, and I text her, and I was like, I want you to fly to Balibu, and I want to do a show with you. And she's like, are you out of your mind? Are you crazy? Because she feels, because of the guest list has been like kind of... She's below. Yeah. And she's, I was like, and she sent me this funny meme where it's like, where like Big Birds is sitting at like a table.

And like everybody else is like, it's just like a normal office and got Big Bird. And she put like, Daniel Eck and Michael Dell and all these other people have had. and then her name on this. I'm like, that's not, that's not what I'm interested. I am intensely interested in people that have singular careers. They are doing what they do in a way that is completely natural and authentic to them. And they're kind of have like an inner scorecard. So like they're willing to make decisions that may not make sense to you, but make sense to them.

Have you read the inner game of tennis? No, but everybody tells me a show. So listen to this. So I think it's a, I think the guy's name is Tim Galloway. The idea is that he wrote it in the 1960s or maybe 70s. He was a tennis instructor. And so he was like trying to get his students to be better tennis players. And he developed this idea of self one and self two.

Self one is a critic. And so when you would hit a ball, you'd say, shit, that was horrible. I got to move my hand this way. I got to do this. Self two is someone who doesn't listen to the brain but listens to the body. And you'd be like, well, I practice this a thousand times, just like Steph Curry. Like, I don't need to criticize myself. Instead, I'm going to be objective.

But I'm going to be like, let's try moving our hand just a little bit this way. And let's just see what happens. that one, that didn't, that hit that we just did, that didn't achieve the desired outcome. What would happen if I just do this? And you just kind of feel it. And so the idea here is that you listen to your body more than your brain. And it's very similar to what you're saying of like being simple and being, following intuition. And in fact, this book, I think Bill Gates is the most recent person to write the forward of the book. It was launched in the 70s and they've republished it and it's now it's like a business cult classic. And the idea here is,

exactly what you're describing, which is like, you keep things very simple, you practice a lot, and you don't criticize yourself, and you don't, like, think too hard about what will do well. The criticism, I mean, you have talked about this a lot, like, in private. Like, we both were maniacally driven to fix and to achieve financial success. And a lot of times that doesn't come from a positive place. Yeah. The way that I see it a lot of times is basically I build businesses because I feel like I have, I'm not good enough. And also, I try to fix myself because you have to fix your personality

in order to build a great company. Mine is not that I don't think I'm good enough. There is like, this is going to be weird. One of my favorite movies is a movie called Tombstone. It's like one of my favorite things. And I watched it when I was a kid over and over again. And there's like a line where Doc Holliday and White Earp are legitimately true friends. And Wyatt Earp is about to go and have a a duel, like a life and death duel. He's going to meet this guy named Johnny Ringo, and he's like, we both have guns. One of us is going to survive

and the other person is going to die. This is about to happen to me. And he's talking to Doc Holiday about like what drives Johnny Ringo to do what he does. And the performance by Valcimer is incredible. And he's just like, people like that have a giant hole in their heart. That no matter what they do, they can't fill.

And so then why? I asked the follow questions, like, what does he want? And he goes, revenge. Revenge for what? Revenge for being born? And I think what drives me, if you get into how I think about it, is like, I wanted professional success to say I was born in the wrong environment, and I will prove to you that, like, I am not like the rest of these people. I knew that since I was like six. Like, I felt very different for a long time. And I was like, and I'm going to, I'm going to do this for myself, but you're also going to see that I'm not going to wind up like these people. There is a, it's almost like a revenge for being born in the environment that I was that like drives me.

Now the self-criticism, you could be my self-criticism for a long time and you see this with a lot of high performers. It's like constantly negative, like overtly, overly negative. And what I've now changed to is it's like, that drove me, right, to work all the time, to try to find a craft that you can be really good at. that has already happened. So that was useful for back then. Is it still useful to this day?

And this is where Brad Jacobs, who was, I think, the third person on the new show, I've talked to him about this a lot. You know, that guy's, this is the benefit of meeting these people now. He has more years of experiences on an entrepreneur than I've been alive. The amount of information they can transfer to you

in an hour-long conversation, a 15-minute conversation, in a sentence is not, You're not capable of doing that unless you have this hard-earned wisdom from experience. And I'm reading his second book right now, which I don't even think is out. And so much of it is about him reframing negative thoughts into positive ways and the way he does this because he realized that when I was just negative and being myself up, I was not as effective. I thought that was a tool and it wasn't a tool.

And so what I'm basically what I've been thinking about a lot lately is just like, man, that served me back to that, that negative inner monologue. doesn't serve me now. I always say, like, learning is not memorizing information. Learning's changing your behavior. Yeah, so, but that's the hard part, because in general, people don't change. You know, Robert Green has this great book called Human Nature, and he was like, in general, assume most people won't change. Yeah, most people. I'm not trying to be most people. Yeah, but you're, but we still have that in us where, like, you have to fight inertia, and that's, quite hard. Yeah, so we were talking upstairs, this Bruce, because you're a Bruce Springsteing fan, and his autobiography, I would highly recommend people go watch this movie called Deliver Me from

nowhere, I think it is. I thought it was going to be a biopic of Bruce Springsteen. That's not what it was. It was about a guy that had an unbelievably tumultuous childhood that funneled that pain into an unbelievable work ethic to get him what he thought he wanted most in the world, which is being a rock star. And then right after he hits that after, you know, years and years of struggle, he plunges himself into deep depression. And what he realizes is like he can't form. His childhood was so messed up.

It did not give him the ability to form stable, loving relationships with women. and what he desperately wanted was he wanted a stable relationship he wanted to have kids because he wanted to raise his kids and break the chain that his parents did to him and yet what he would do

he would freak out he'd fall in love with a woman or whatever the case was and then he'd like something's wrong with her she can't if she loves me I am unlovable so therefore

I'm going to hurt this person he would run away and then he'd start dating somebody else and he would go through this over and over and over again, right, until the point where, like, he has to go, end up seeing a therapist. He finds, he basically is like, hey, my life is going to be miserable. I'm going to be world famous. I'm going to be wealthy. I'm going to have a job I love and I'm going to be depressed

and miserable. And the crazy thing about the book, the book is 600 pages long. Half the time, you're like, this guy is the first half of the book is about his love for his work and his work ethic. And so you think you see where it's going. And then this curveball happens in his life where he's like, life is more important than work. What Bruce was figuring out is that every human wants like relationships, whether it's a romantic relationship or a true friend or something, somebody understands you that you feel like you can like do life together. And I now have like my friend group is crazy because of like how high quality they are in all the domains, like all areas of their life. And that was like, oh my God, it's not that I was like, didn't like, didn't want to let people

in or I didn't like other humans. It's like, I didn't have access to this before. And so like almost every single one of my new friends have come from the podcast. And in some cases, they've become like best friends, people that I've spent years getting to know and like spend hours and hours talking to. And so that's where it's like, oh, like, this is actually really important to me. Relationships are really important to me in a way that I didn't understand. And maybe. maybe I was like lying to myself about this. And so that was like a huge learning for me. And then the reason I bring this up for the Bruce Feasting thing is because he's messing up

at something he deeply desires, yet he's smart enough to realize, hey, what are the tools that I need to fix this? Because if I don't fix this, I'm going to have another 30 years, or in his case, 40 years of my life where I'm going to be miserable. So he's like, change his behavior. That means he learned. You're not learning if you didn't change your behavior. Today's episode is brought to you by HubSpot.

know that most businesses only use 20% of their data, that's like reading a book, but then tearing out four-fifths of the pages. Point is, you miss a lot. And unless you're using HubSpot, the customer platform that gives you access to the data you need to grow your business, the insights that are trapped in emails, call logs, transcripts, all that unstructured data makes all the difference, because when you know more, you grow more. And so if you want to read the whole book, instead of just reading part of it, visit HubSpot.com. You know what's crazy? Every time I listen to your podcast, I have envy of the people, not because of their success, but because like particularly like Bruce but there's a lot of people who found their passion very early on in life

and I don't know if that's luck what it is but I think that that's like the all whenever I listen to founders and I and now the David Sutter show I think like how crazy is it like we were talking about music I whenever I go to concerts and like if it's a band that I've loved for years I love the Green Day for years Billy Joe will play a song that he wrote when he was 15 and I'm like how fortunate are you that you were able to create stuff at the age of 15 that's still relevant to you in your 50s or 60s. And so I get like, like one of the my favorite ones you've done, I didn't like this guy, but what's the Liz Zodica's guy's name? Oh, yeah, Deo Vecchio.

So basically for the listener, this guy like started like a sunglass conglomerate that's a monopoly and it's an 80 or $100 billion company and he tried to pass it onto his sons and try to make it a family dynasty. But there's a ton of like bad shit that he's done in his life with family. and he seems like a pretty like angry, generally angry guy. He was like an orphan. Yeah, like this is what I mean. He had a lot of darkness.

But he never dealt with it where I just gave you an example. Bruce is like, no, I'm not going to mind. Well, he dealt with it at the end. I think at the end of the episode, you're like, he was like, the thing that I wish I did differently was how I treated my children. Yeah, but on the episode I said, I don't believe him. Right. That's what you've said.

But what I do envy of him and many of the people is that they found their passion early. I could see that, but like I was 32 when I found like what I was to do. Really? Yes. Bruce Swayce was 15. Kobe Brown was like 11. Leonardo. I think he's Leonardo.

Dovecu was what, 17? Yes, he was young. 32 was young. But the fact that you find it in the first place. This is why you ask like, what are you doing? Why are you taking, like, you didn't say like, why are you taking everything so seriously? It's like, that is what I'm, I understand how rare it is for somebody to be able to make a living doing something that they love to do. This is why I hate, like, we talked about the fact that we don't really read Twitter that much.

I hate like when I see people just like engagement farming and they're like, the worst piece of advice you could ever have is like work on what you're passionate about. And they're like instead like start a trash hauling business. And I'm just like, no, man. Like it's the best thing in the world and it's excessively rare. And if you find it, you should do everything in your possible, impossible to like hold on to it and to not mess it up. This is a piece of advice I got from from Michael Dell. And he told me, he was like, tell me crazy stories. This is before we recorded the podcast together.

We spent five hours talking And he told me he's just like Most entrepreneurs sabotaged themselves Right? You're not taken out by like a competitor Like you You do something where like you're having success

And then like you always say like The worst thing you could do is like You go to sleep on a win You'll wake up with a loss, right? Jimmy Avine One of the things I learned from Jimmy He's in this documentary It's one of my favorite documentaries

It's called The Defiant Ones. He also had this like crazy 50 year career is like the importance of actually having a full life with crazy experiences. And so like he did this episode of Rick Rubin two years ago. He just did another episode of Rick Rubin's podcast. I think it was in 2020. It was the best single podcast episode I listened to in 2023. And it's just like, I want that.

Not only want to be really great at what I do, but I was like, I want to have a very full life. So Jimmy was kind enough when I did a founder's episode on him. He said like a thousand people texted to him. And he invited me to his house. and one of the pieces of advice, again, 72, maybe 75, it's probably 72, a guy has more knowledge, you know, practical knowledge is pinky than I have in my entire body. And he's like, most people cannot handle success. And the advice, he's been around super talented people, and these are some people who are legit geniuses

and they destroy their lives. I'm not interested in being successful for a year, for five years, for 10 years. I don't want to, I want to be this until I decide I'm going to stop doing this. And so his whole thing was There's like basically four things that he sees For ways that people do this the most Ruin their success They are successful, they're talented

And they destroy themselves Oh, what are the four? So the first one was drugs Pills, heroin, all this stuff I don't do any drugs That's not gonna happen to me. Do you see the Eddie Murphy documentary? No, everybody keeps telling me about it.

Oh, it was so good, dude and one of the main things was You know, he was famous since he was 16 He was on S&L, I think, when he was 18 and, you know, did all these movies when he was like, I've never done drugs. And he's like, that's one of the main reasons why I am what I am. So his, he's going to be number three on this list, which we'll get to in a minute,

about what could destroy you. And he wasn't destroyed by it, but he has a, he's addicted to something else, which we'll get to. Number two, alcohol. Like, you just could destroy your life. You know, I had, went to dinner last night with a friend, and, like, I had a glass of sake. Like, but I didn't get drunk. It was like, fine, right?

three women they just like they attract the wrong kind of women they fall in love with the wrong kind of women they let the wrong women in around them like they're like what's the Patriots coach Bill Veltrick yes you see what

he's doing now he's saying like a 20 year old or something oh yeah man she just calls the shots okay well it's exactly what you're describing no in cases it gets a lot darker there's like just it can distract you it's just you have to you want high quality people around you in every single domain Friends, high quality people.

If we work with high quality people, the people you date, you want high quality people. Like, you just want high quality people. It's like, it's the most important decision you make in your life is the people that you let around you, which I see people are way too casual about this. And I could be really, really ruthless in this domain. And then the fourth one is megalomania.

And the reason I say Eddie Murphy, because he's, like, he's, like, dated every single person. He's got, like, 10 kids. I think he's got a bunch of different baby mamas. Again, he's still living his life he wants to do, but he clearly likes that, uh, Number three. So number four is just megalomania. You start to think that you're successful because of you and not the work that you put in. And you start to believe you have like you're like a god and like everybody should, you know, praise you and you just completely become disassociated from reality. And this is why I say like it's very dangerous, especially to like do numbers driven thing. Like I talk to founders all the time. I'm like, oh, like tell me about your company. Like I just want to be the first, you know, I want to build a trillion dollar company. I want to be the first, the fastest company. to 100 million ARR.

I'm like, you know, like, no, none of history's great entrepreneurs. Not a history's great entrepreneurs. I'm calling you out on that. That's bullshit because when I talk to Ramp, the Ramp founders are amazing. They're like the best and the best. They said our goal is to get to a billion dollar in valuation in 18 months.

That was not their primary goal. Their primary goal. But they said that's with their goal. I mean, he was like, I think it'd be cool if we could do that. Oh, that's different. Oh, come on. No, that is different. 100%.

I'm saying the reason for your existence, the reason what you're doing, These people are telling me, I'm only starting this company so I can hit a certain financial number. That's completely different. No, that's not what they said. Yeah, that's not what they, wasn't I there with you in the office? I recorded with him. And he repeats this all the time. It's like, that's like a cool thing.

He was like, I thought it'd be cool if we could get to a billion in valuation 18 months. I don't know if I heard that episode, but like there. He said it a bunch. Okay, their experience with Paribis beforehand was giving the insight into the founding story of Ramp. So that's a longer story. But my point being is like, I'm having. hugely skeptical if you're, there's some kind of external metric that I will only be happy if I hit that metric or that is the reason that I'm doing this. Where mine is just like,

I want to make things that are proud of that I think are good in, like, I could put out in there, like good into the world. And I don't confuse like when we were just upstairs. And you're like that guy sitting next to us. It's like, I don't confuse with somebody saying, hey, I like what you do. Like, that's the perfect way to say it. You like what I do. You might like me as a person. If we knew each other, we probably get along, we probably have the same interest. But never confused that they don't like you. It's the work. And if once you stop putting in the work, everything else goes away. That is how the megalomaniacs, they just think, like, I'm so talented, I just show up. Everything I touch turns to gold. I don't have to practice.

I don't have to put any effort. And everything's going to work out. And then they also, you know, treat people essentially not as people. If you had to teach someone who is 19 how to find their life's work based off of talking reading about 400 people and not talking to dozens of hundreds of successful entrepreneurs, what would you say

is the exercises that they should do? My problem is, I think at that age, I wouldn't have taken anybody's advice. And I think I'm only now, the last few years, like, been open to letting other people, like, mold my mind. What would you say?

The fact that they're asking the question, like, there's just a great line where it's like a 21-year-old kid comes up to Mozart, and it's like, I want to know how to write a symphony. And she says, you're too young. And the guy that is asking most of the question, it's just like, yeah, but you wrote symphonies when you were 14. He's like, yeah, but they didn't go around asking people how to do it.

There's something in there where you feel somebody else has the answer. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for advice. I'd be very clear here. I don't think there's anything magical I would have to say that would put them on the other path. you need to spend a lot of time thinking about what you actually believe. A lot of people just lie to themselves

over and over and over again and this is a long conversation last night and the conversation started was like what's the lie that you're telling yourself? And we went back and forth me and this other person for a while about this. My lie, I'll just tell you right now

which again, I'm probably sharing too much publicly is this is like that I don't need anybody else. That's a lie that's a lie. You think that. That's a lie I've been telling myself for a very long time, which again has happened and I learned that because of the experience of having the relationships I have

realizing that like you're you're doing that because it's a defense mechanism not because it's actually true and so for this i'd be like take the time like what do you actually want and that's very hard to be truthful about and the one way that i found it is just like i just follow like i have ungovernable curiosity about things i cannot tell you why i like to read and so like when i first started my first podcast it was like oh like it'd be cool if i could like build a business and a life where i just get to read all the time, which sounds ridiculous, but it actually worked. And then you just follow this. And then now to the point where, like, we recorded this conversation with Todd Graves, who's one of the, one of the people I wanted to meet the most, which people sounds crazy,

but I'm like, he's like, what does he do? He's like, he sells chicken fingers. And they're like, what? Why do you want to meet him? I was like, because he grinded himself, first of all, he's been doing his business for 30 years, started out, built the first store by hand. He had no money, went to crazy risk to find the financing because there's no venture capital, and no want to give money. He had to risk his life on a boat, sailing off, fishing off Alaska. He worked as a boiler maker. He was like highly leveraged and almost went out of business. He did all these crazy things because he just found he had this chicken finger dream. That's what he calls it. And he's like, I have to do the chicken finger dream. I can't explain why it. Again, he's not external

looking for external validation. I'm going to do this. Everybody's like, you're an idiot. You can't do it. It hasn't changed his menu in 30 years. So we fly to Baton Rouge. The conversation is incredible. We record for two hours, two hours, two hours, two hours. And then you're And then we spend another two and a half hours one-on-one together after. Was he any different? No, because he also listens to the podcast, so he understands who I am. Like, it's just very, this is what I meant. It's like, I don't make media.

I'm building relationships. He might be a top 10 person I've listened to on your pod. Yeah, he's incredible. And so this is the point about following the curiosity going back to the 19-year-old. I go back to the airport and I call Sam Hinky. And he picks up and I go, I'm in big trouble. And he goes, what's going on? I go, I am already wildly addicted to having these conversations.

He goes, I go, I've never done ecstasy, but this is how I feel right now. I am like high, I am wired. I am like high as a kite because I had this guy, again, he's got three decades of experience. He had 915 stores. The company's worth over $20 billion. He owns 90% of it. He's growing faster in year 30 than it ever has in history. He still has trouble sleeping because he can't wait to wake up and get back to work the next day.

And so you just get like, you get this download of information. information and energy from him that like just made me euphoric. Who would be on your board of advisors? Would he be on one of them? How many people do I get? Six. I have to name them. Yeah.

Living or dead? Either. Let me do dead just because that will give me some time to think about living. And I think like I don't know if I want to answer that question honestly, but I would have to. Dead. You know, Rockefeller built the greatest company ever created. Rockefeller, I think is one of the few tycoons of, in terms of like unpeachable character and like amazing success, I think he's,

the best. Debatable and unpeachable character. No, okay. Unpeachable's not the right word because he screwed up. He did lie on the record a bunch of times.

But in general, I think he was, he's a ethical, honest person. Got a little hansy towards the end of his life. Let's just put it that way. I remember, I collect

obscure... He was 100. I collect obscure rock, Rockefeller biographies. I have made my own. I have one at my house I haven't done an episode on. It's 1700 pages long.

It's in a big binder. He was a weirdo when he was like 90 and he was like giving people nickels and shit. That's fine. Great. He, undeniable, one of the best businesses ever created. Charlie Munger told me to my face that he thinks Rockefeller created the best business in history.

Yeah. Munger would have to be on it because he's dead, unfortunately now. I think he's the wisest person I've ever studied. If I can only, like, emulate, learn from one person to be him. Edwin Land. Who's that? Who's that? He was Steve Jobs' hero.

His whole thing, he's got a lot of things that, a lot of personal mottos. He invented the instant photography, the entire industry. then monopolized the industry. It's like one of the last great American technology companies that were never like, his patents were never... What did he die?

I've never heard of him. In the 90s? When he was in his 70s, Steve Jobs met Edwin Land when Steve was like 25. Edwin Land was like 72, I think. And he said, Steve Jobs said that spending time with him was like visiting a shrine.

This is how a lot... I get to meet like crazy people in the world, right? I actually had lunch with a friend yesterday. And she told me something fascinating. She's just like, you need to like take a minute to think about what's going on in your life and the fact that you have this ridiculously sick life because of the people you have like access to. You ever write this up down like a journal? No.

This is like, I think I've, I think one of the reasons I wanted to do the Bruce Springsteen episode is because I think I'm also, I like run for my past. I don't like thinking about it. Like there's just all kinds of other stuff going on. And so I spent time yesterday with a 71 year old guy. it looks like he's going to do his first ever podcast interview with me. He just sold his company for $60 billion. And in an hour,

he transferred more knowledge to me than I would, weeks speaking to like a young startup founder. It's just unbelievable of that. So Edwin Land, I felt, did the exact same thing for Steve Jobs. And Steve Jobs, like, what essentially copied,

he patered Apple off of Polaroid, and a lot of people don't understand that. Like, to the point where, like, you can go back and watch Steve's product demonstrations and the table and chairs that are on that are the exact same ones that Edwin Land did for Polaroid. People don't actually see, if you don't have, if you're not studying history, you don't have this like basis of historical knowledge in your head, you actually don't know what you're looking at. Like I saw something different when I saw that video than somebody who didn't study history does.

It's like very, very valuable. And this is like we're wasting time doing dumb shit, like watching short form videos all day, being obsessed with the news, following X. Like this stuff is garbage. It's just like read books and talk to really amazing people and try to like apply what you're learning from both of those experiences to be a better human. And then the better human you are,

other better humans will then open up to you. And then there's like this virtuous cycle. You have three more. So Rockefeller, Munger, Land, obviously Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs built, you know, most successful consumer product of all time. I will say about Ivan Land, I took two ideas from him. He had a, his personal motto was don't do anything someone else can do. I think that's different, demand.

Man's differentiation. When you listen to my podcast, they are very weird. Foundry, there's not like, you can read books and have a solo podcast. You're not going to make it like that. It's a very weird thing. Even the way I'm doing the new show, it was like, this guy interviews weird. I'm not interviewing a goddamn person. I am having conversations. What you're hearing on the show is exactly what you would hear if we weren't recording this. This is the stuff I have. The idea of all these, all these guys, everybody who's doing the show besides James Isis and so far, has listened to the podcast. You think, first of all, a lot of the early listeners for the new show come from founders, right?

And some of the message I get, they're like, yeah, but like, you're like talking too much and like you interrupt and you do all this other stuff. Like, you should do it the way this guy does. We just did 400 episodes of people that build lives and phenomenal careers by being differentiated. And now you're like, no, no, don't be differentiated. Go do it like this other guy. The differentiation I have compared to other podcasters that want to talk to excessively successful people in business is they haven't read 400 biographies about history's

greatest entrepreneurs like I have. I spend time with Daniel Eck all the time. I just saw Michael Dell again last week. I promise you, they don't want me to not talk. That is not what they want. They listen to the show. And so this idea from Edwin Land is like, don't do anything someone else could do. That is a very, very simple sentence and a very profound insight if you actually apply it. Most people are so scared to be different. Because your recall is so good. I wasn't born with that. It's work. It's 10 years of reading and then rereading. and then like building my own database. And then like I've done all kinds of crazy shit

that no other podcasters do. Because you know, like I talked to other podcasters and I ask all kinds of questions. It's like, everybody's like, you are blessed with phenomenal memory. No, I forget everything all the time. But I don't forget something if I read it 15 times.

I was up in your room and I took a photo of your book. You had the Brad Jacobs book. Yeah. And I was like, I just want to see what he's underlining. I was like, I just want to see like his thinking. You underlined so much stuff. It's so many notes in there. Yeah.

So, but this is because again, I also love what I do. And if you love what you do, you're going to do things that are not for financial reasons. You do it because you want it to be great. Like, I am killing myself over this edit right now. The episode that I'm working on right now is probably four days late. And I still don't have it.

And I feel uncomfortable right now. But I know that's a good feeling because like when I get on the other side that this happened. I did this episode called How Elon Works. I think it's the most downloaded episode of founders by far. And I remember talking to a friend because I was working in Malibu. And I was like, it's just not ready. Like, I can't, like, I am struggling. Like, I, if it's supposed to be out on Sunday, it's not coming out.

But the thing that I realized, like, no one's going to remember if it came out four or five days late. They're going to remember if it was great or not. And spending that extra time and being confused is like a good signal. It means that it care, and then I'm trying, and I will find my path, like, my way there. So I think that's really important. So let's go back to the other thing about Edwin-Land real quick. He also has this great line. And they said, this is where I said I was lying to myself about wanting a balanced life.

He says, there's a rule they don't teach you at Harvard, which he knows because he dropped out at Harvard twice. He goes, as a rule they don't teach you at Harvard, that anything worth doing is worth doing to excess. I can't hold myself. Like, I have to take things as far as they can go. That's why I can't do many things. I essentially can just do podcasts.

I could take care of my health. I could do podcasts and I can build relationships. That is essentially all my 24 hours a day. That's all I have. I can't do anything else. So Edmund Land, Steve Jobs, Rockefeller, Munger. two other dead people. I don't think I need the other two.

I like fewer deeper. Fewer deeper relationships. I tend to talk to like the same people over and over again. You know, being public figures, you could talk to a thousand people a year if you wanted to. I find that like, I want people, I want genuinely know people who they authentically are.

I want them to know who I authentically am. And then like, I want to skip all the bullshit and I want to get right to like the actual stuff that we want to talk about. I want to talk about your relationships you have with women. I want to talk about like the guilt that you have being on the road all time and the fact that you're a dad, I want to talk about the stuff that you lied to everybody else about.

Like, this is the stuff, the only stuff I'm interested in. I cannot have, like, superficial conversations. Like, I remember one time, this guy reached out, he was a billionaire, and he's like, I'd love to talk to you. I was like, sure, and then he's like a sit-in. I got, like, looped in with his assistant. I don't even have an assistant. I don't even have anything myself.

So, like, besides, I guess the new show, and I have a whole squad that you see. But I remember getting the calendar invite, and it was like 30 minutes. And I'm like, like, we're, We're not even going to get started in 30 minutes. And so I was like, this isn't going to work. Like, tell me when you have, like, more time.

Like, but I'm not going to talk to you for 30 minutes. All right, let's take a quick break because I've got to tell you a story. Let me tell me about the first time I tried to run payroll for my team. I was using a traditional bank and you know the type. It's got a janky interface. It's built like a 2002 tax form. And it was open only during business hours. And I hit send and it froze.

They flagged the transaction. They locked my account. They put me on hold for 45 minutes. And then they told me I got to visit my local branch. And that was the day I started looking for a new banking solution. After asking a few founders what they were using, I found out about Mercury. And so now my payroll is two clicks. I can wire money.

I can pay invoices. I can reimburse the team, all from one clean dashboard. That's why I use it for all of my companies. And so do 200,000 other startup founders. And so if you're looking to level up your banking, head to mercury.com and apply in minutes. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking the services are provided through Choice Financial Group, column N. A and evolve Bank and Trust members, FDIC.

What do you think would be the biggest regret of all the people that you've talked to? What would be the top three biggest regrets that they've had? This is where it's like with these kind of people, I don't necessarily believe them that they're regrets. So Sam Walton, he's writing his autobiography as he knows he's dying. He's got cancer all of his bodies in immense pain. He took out some of the last time that he ever had in life. And he essentially distilled what he learned from his like 50, 60 year career.

And I think it's one of the best books, easily top five, you know, entrepreneur book of all time. And it's like such a gift to future generations of entrepreneurs that he did that with his last time. And he, he said that, you know, he missed out a lot of stuff. Like he was working all the time. He's like a fairly, he calls himself a fairly overactive fellow. Yeah. And well, that's, that's, that's one way to put it, Sam, but like that you're, you're just a conqueror. You're, you're an insane person in a good way. He's trying to do something, you know, that he thought was good. And he's like, you know, if I had to be honest, though, like, yeah, I missed out on seeing, you know, parts of my kids' lives,

Like I was working a lot. But he's like, if I did it all again, I would do it the exact same way. And I think a lot of people feel that way. And they get to them in their life. And then they're like, I think it's just natural to be nostalgic and to think, oh, what I would change? But like even Buffett says in Snowball,

whatever he did to draw, to like push his wife away, his first wife, I would go back. He says I would go back and like do it differently. Maybe, I don't know. Like, I think he did exactly what he wanted to do. Maybe in that case, he's right. He was like, I was, like, truly in love with this woman, and I messed that up. I could see that being, like, a true regret.

I think a lot of these people have a hard time assessing, like, their own regrets accurately. There's a great book called How to Get Rich. Have you read that one? Felix Dennis, episode 129. Yes. one of my favorite books of all time because his writing is really good. It's the best. I compare him to, he's like if Mick Jagger and Richard Branson had a baby, his writing is the best. And it's one of the very few books that's tactical and written by a billionaire. And so the

reason it's a good book is he was dying. He was dying of cancer. I think he died when he was 60 or something. And he said, if I could live life all over again, I would accumulate $50 million as fast as I can, hopefully by the age of 35. And then I would spend the rest of my life writing poetry. Yes. And the reason I believe him is he spent the last 10 years of his life, retired writing books and poetry and his philanthropic issue or thing was planting forests. He loved trees. It was very strange. He also, like, said in the book, he's like, I've spent $100 million on horrors and crack. A cocaine, cocaine over a decade. I was going to bring that up. Where like, this is, this is. He was a, he was a crackhead. He was a legit. I didn't know his crackhead.

No, it was crack. He was like a crackhead. Right around here, actually, in this neighborhood. I believe him because he got to like 500 to 800 million like he got way yeah but this was like in the year 2002 so like even more yeah yeah and so you read that book and again this is why like i spent so much time with these older people because there's like a certain like you don't know yourself as well when you're younger you're still on the rise and so you're incentivized to like put on a show essentially like you're not being truthful and you can't let the world actually see how you like what you believe about certain things and especially in like this entrepreneur you system of you or you're in. Like, most of these start-founders are just straight up lying so they can

raise more money. Like, it's really gross and disgusting. This is my whole thing. I am fundamentally, if I am like being, if I'm being dishonest about something or if I have, like, different sides of me, I don't like that. I need to reconcile that right away. I've gotten so much more value out of listening from old people than I have reading Twitter or whatever. It might be because they're willing to tell you the truth. Well, and it's also because when did you get past a certain level, and that level, honestly, is pretty small. But, like, when did you get past a certain level, the analogy that I heard recently was really good. It was like, I'm no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the captain of a boat, and I'm not trying to fix the engine, but steer the ship. And so I don't want, I don't necessarily need to tell me how to live, like, a good life. And a good life is a variety of things, but like, I need to know about what the definition of a life worth living is, not how to make money or whatever. I don't know, whatever the tactics are. And so I've gotten so much more value, so my friend Noah Kagan's got this channel on YouTube where he interviews like 80 year olds. And, and, um, mostly like entrepreneurs, I've gotten so much more value out of that.

You see this if you can't interview them, at least you can pick up like Felix Dennis's book where how many people are going to be honest about? That is a crazy thing to admit to. That I spent 10 million a year for 10 years, $100 million on prostitutes and coke. Dude, when he died, his prostitute girlfriend was living with him. Again, like I'm sure, I can't imagine the SDDs this guy has or had

and doing coke and drinking in nightclubs because they're like nightclubs, I think, remember correctly. Yeah, like in the 80s. He's just like, you don't want to do that. Like, what are you doing? Like, it's going to shorten your life. And some people want to. There's a great line in Bruce Svee's autobiography where he's like, some people's five years is worth more than other people's 50. You know, so like some people just have to burn bright and like they're going to, that is like their destiny. That's what they're going to do.

I want to like have a very interesting life and I want to succeed decade after decade after decade. Were you making any money in the first five years? Back then, so there's a long story, but like there was the podcast advertising is not like how it is now which is like way more advanced and like you can sell your own deals independently so at that time there was like these they call them podcast networks

but they're not even I guess they're not there wasn't a network podcast they would just sell ads for you and so I just remember reaching out to one of them and they're like we would love to to like sell ads for you it's like you need 50,000 downloads per episode what did you have 1500?

The number they said I was like 50,000 I was like it seemed like such a I would never have that Like, I just didn't, I couldn't compute. I don't even know what I had, but a couple thousand or whatever the number was back then. And so then you would like, try to do like, you could do like affiliate deals.

Like, remember Audible scaled on podcasts? People don't understand the size of businesses you can build on the backup podcast to this day. And now I don't even talk about this public anymore because like, I think this is a secret of mind. Like, my business has made a lot of money via podcasting because I promoted my company Hampton on there. And there's just a million examples

that people don't even know. Like, I've collected all these cases. The hard part is that podcasts are like the most challenging to grow, but they're the most sticky, I think, of all the mediums. Oprah understood the intensity of a per of a legitimate parisocial relationship back in the 80s, way before, like nothing we're doing is new. She had built in distribution, right? She hooked up with the network and that was, and there was only 60 channels. I did an episode on that. That might be 332.

I might be wrong on that episode. But the key there, like, let me just tell you her insight and I'll tell you what she figured out how to monetize it in such a huge way. Her key insight was, you know, she would have like Brad Pitt on her show. like these A-list celebrities. And she's like, oh, I have something different because the way my audience responds to, like, a movie star is not the way they respond to me. And so, like, they're like, Brad, oh, my God, you're handsome.

I love your movie. Like Oprah, it's nice to see you. How are you? No, they're like, Oprah, come over for lunch. Come over for dinner. When people walk up to me on the street, they, like, get right into it. Yeah, because I think they know you.

And in many cases, they do. They know, like, what I'm into and, like, what I'm intensely interested in. And then Oprah's thing, just to close that real quick, Well, first, also, I think people vastly underestimate the importance of frequency, which is like another thesis I'm about to try to prove here, whereas she's in your house, one hour or day, five days a week. The intensity of the success of her business and the intensity of the pariscial relationship

about it would be much more diminished if she was doing it once a week. I think that's very important. Second thing she realized is that at the time, this is all, you know, television. The most profitable show on TV at this time was local news, right? because it's like, cost nothing to make. And you could sell advertisers like, I want to sell my car in Charlotte, yeah,

it's a more targeted. It's a huge target of that. And what she realized is like, if you have Oprah coming into being the lead in from four to five to your five o'clock news, right, she's going to bump up your rating, your Nielsen rating by like, I forgot what the number is,

let's say three. And for every one Nielsen rating, your local news would make like another five million a year. So let's say you don't have Oprah, you just lost out on 15 million a year. $15 million. So if Oprah says, oh, I'll sign with you, you have to pay me five of that. I'm making up the numbers. You have to pay me five of that 15. You're going to say, yeah. So I couldn't figure out how to sell enough ads. I'll close this real quick because I've

talked about this on another podcast too. I had found this socialist podcast called Chapo Trappos that was selling, uh, that did not run ads because they were not capitalists. Right. So they thought it was, you know, immoral. And they were using Patreon at the time to sell subscriptions to podcasts. And the Patreon API is public. And they're, There is a website called Graftreone, and they were at the top of the list, and I found this, and they had 25,000 people, or 20,000 people paying them at least $5 a month. And I'm like, oh, there's a business model right there, and their business model was simple. You can listen to every other episode for free.

If you want the other episodes you're not getting, you have to pay five bucks a month. And so I was like, well, this is like information for business. People for business would, of course, pay for this. And there's actually a story here. And so I sold it too cheap. It was like $100 a year or $10 a month. and then I ground it to like a grind into like a couple thousand. So it's like you're making like dentist money or something like that as the way I would think about it.

But then- 24 grand a year ain't dentist money. No, you're making hundreds of thousands of year. I thought you said 2,000 a month. You got it. No, no. Annual subscribers had like a couple thousand. Got it.

Okay. 3,000, 4,000, something like that. So that'd be like 400 grand or whatever the number is, right? But then let me, then I also, Rob was like, you idiot. I'm trying to send this. He's like your biggest asset you have is your back catalog. and you have a big giant do not enter sign in front of your biggest asset. He's like, I've been trying to send it to people, and it's so good that you had to buy gift descriptions.

And so he's like, I spent like $900 this week sending your episode to my nine friends. I have to pay $100 every time I want to send somebody's friend. My friend Sam Hinkke, he was spending like 2,000 to 3,000 or 4,000 a year because this is too good. He was just buying it for everybody. He's the one that told Patrick about it, which has obviously changed my life from there. And so then here's another thing, which I did. didn't understand that podcasts are not all. All is not that it appears from the outside.

This is a lesson from Rockefeller, where he realizes that one of his advantages was that not everybody, there's posted rates on how much it's gonna cost to ship a barrel oil over the railroad. That posted rate is a lie. Yeah, so he gets rebates. Yes. The foundation of his empire.

And so what I realize, and I remember Hinky calls me one day, and he goes, hey, where are you? I go, I'm in the Hamptons. He's like, what are you doing there? I go, this guy DM me, and we talked on the phone. I really liked him. And he has this giant house in the Hamptons.

He's like, will you come speak to my company offsite? And Sam's like, he's paying you for that? I go, yeah, of course. He goes, how much? And I go, X amount. And he goes, and I go, he's paying me X amount. And then he put me in this crazy house or this crazy hotel where, like, the room service is like a three-star Michelin.

The restaurant downstairs is only one restaurant. It's like, I'm ordering room service from like a Michelin-Star restaurant. And then I go to, checking even though I'm not paying for it, and I see what he's paying a night. It's like $3,000 a night or something like that. And so I was like, yeah, this place is incredible, it's beautiful. And, you know, and we just went over like basic numbers. And Sam goes, you have got to stop selling things. He goes, you have one of the most price and sensitive audiences in the world. You cannot sell something for $100 a year. Because like they would have paid $10,000 because

like it's relative to their wealth. And so like, the, this just happened when you said the book that you saw upstairs. In that book, Brad Jacobs, who has now become a friend of mine, sent me an early copy of that book. He did not tell me I'm in that book. He just said, here's the book. Tell me if you like it. I'm reading the book. And it says at the end for his new company, and not even the end, I think it's on page 76, if I remember correctly.

He's like, most of the investors in my new company, which is now a multi, multi-billion dollar company, are repeat investors. However, two of my top 20 shareholders did not know who I was. They discovered me because I was profiled on David Sunrose Founders Podcast. And I'm like, that's crazy. And I know the two people, because those two people also told me and they told Brad. That means Brad raised $750 million from my audience, from people that didn't know he existed before I did the episode on his book. So that was Sam's point. He's like, you have one of the most price-and-sensitive audiences in the world.

You cannot sell things for $100. This guy, and the speech wasn't even a speech. We go, his whole team is at his Hampton's house. It was like 30 of us. And he just wanted to like shoot the shit in front of them for like 30 minutes and pay me unbelievable amount of money. Dude, this is like that. I told Ben Wilson, so I found I've been the history buff for 20 years.

I love Ben. And I saw Ben's podcast, How to Take Over the World. And I was, he sent me the graph. I think when I found him, he was doing 100 downloads an episode. I was like, Ben, what's going to happen in the future is you're going to become sort of like guru, but not in that type of way, where because you've consumed all that, this was before AI, because you've consumed all this history knowledge, billionaires are going to pay you money to help them predict the future by not repeating the past. I was like, that could be like the

business model. And it was like hard to understand at the time, but it's not your time kind of sucks. But that's like the joy of reading history. It's basically, it's like sort of education that's wrapped in entertainment. That's why I love it so much. Do you ever use newspapers.com? I bought a description. I don't think I've ever gone on. Dude, you have to use it. It's so fun because the problem with biographies and, like, listen to your podcast is you're telling me these stories when I already know the ending.

And it's so much better to go back. So, for example, you could read about, like, Dan Gilbert. And he's just like one of the greats when it comes to being an entrepreneur. And you can read about him and watch interviews, but you know that he was successful. You already know the outcome of the story. And so it's really fun to go back. I use newspapers

I come all the time because I go and find articles in the 80s when they, and I'll find, his first profile, like the very first time a newspaper wrote about him and like, what were they saying about him right then and there? Or how were they disrespecting them? Or did they like, could they spot it? Or like, because there's revisionist history. Like, what were people saying about them then and there? Because because I was in San Francisco starting, I moved to San Francisco when I was 21. And there's a bunch of like people that are ballers now. And I'm like, I knew that guy when we were nothing. I did not see that. I did not know that he had that in him or this person I thought was

going to be the shit. They were nothing. And so it kind of becomes hard to like, predict who's going to be, I mean, obviously, Angel investing would be a lot easier if this were the case. This is why I would say, like, the only filter I trust, like, time is the best filter. And so that's why I can gravitate towards people that were successful over many decades. We didn't finish the, so, like, if you think, you asked me the living board of directors. Yeah. I think this is a good segue into, like, what you were just talking about, where it's like,

it would probably be a lot of the people that have had on the new David's Center show so far. So, like. Ovitz, Dell. No, the first spot would go to Daniel Eck for sure, for sure. He was cool because he, everyone. the shark who's that successful, but he had a soft side that I liked. He is like Swedish Buddha. I don't know how to describe him. He is unbelievably philosophical and he's changed my life in so many different ways. I can't believe he's that way at such a young age too. And that's the way,

like, we're close in age, but he is like so much wiser than I am. And I've spent a bunch of time with him. And I would say he's taught me a lot. Like he he's another guy that will call you on your shit. In a very polite way though. Yeah, he's great. So like he, the reason I started doing video, The reason I'm doing the new show too is because of him. And his whole thing was just like, we were having this crazy dinner, this four-hour dinner in New York. He's just like, why aren't you doing video?

And I was like, I'm not doing this for like fame. I'm a very private person. I don't want to ever be recognized in public. And he's just like, a lot more people know what I look like than what you look like. He goes, I got recognized in the gym this morning. You know what they do? They come over and say, hey, I love Spotify.

Thanks for building it. And then they go about their ways. And he's just like you, I'm paraphrasing he said, he knew I was obsessed with podcasting. He gave me great advice. He's like, you're easy to understand, so therefore you're easy to help. Because all you care about is podcasting.

And so it's very easy for me to help you because you're easy to understand. That's a wise line. This is what I mean. If I only had one board of directors, it's probably him. In the beginning of the podcast, he told the story about how he advised Dara

to take the job of Uber. And he was like, he tells us an amazing story. He was like, Dara, you know, I think you should take this job and Dara saying, like, you know, somebody nominated me to like, uh, run Uber and Daniel was like, yeah, you seem like you've been complacent, this and that. And then he like talks about how he convinced him basically to take this job at Uber. And then he

later tells him the story. He's like, I was the one that nominated you. He didn't even tell him. He was like, I dominated you. This is the important part for somebody to say that to you. You seem complacent. That looks like you're criticizing. That looks like you're attacking. This is why you have to get over. Don't listen to random people. But if that person genuinely cares about you, you have to be able, this is something I struggle with. Like, He didn't curse. He's just like, essentially, my paraphrase is like, you're lying. This is bullshit.

Like, get over. Like, he said something about, like, getting on, like, I'm straddling the fence. I can't remember the exact words. But essentially, just like, this is the business you've chosen. And the fact of the matter is, podcast I have video grow a lot faster than podcasts that don't. He gives interviews multiple times. People asking what his favorite podcast is. He says founders.

Like, the, he's like, you genuinely believes it's good for the world. So me not doing video means less people see it. Yeah, it's sort of like a horse dealer fighting the fact that Ford is around now. Yeah, and it's just like, what are you doing? Like, so get off the fence. And then me and Patrick set this dinner too, we get in the car after that. I'm like, we're going to do video. Well, Patrick didn't want to do it either.

I know. Neither of us wanted to do it. But that's why my point is, like, you have to be smart enough to change your behavior when you're reacting to new information. And so this also leads us to really, like, my obsession now. Founders will always be my obsession because I never going to stop reading. But like, like, I'm spending a lot of time. Most of my time will be on David's Enra is.

we get in the car and I'm going back to Patrick's house to spend the night at his house and he's been pushing me to record podcasts and do more what he called interviews at the time and he did for years and I was like No, no, no, no.

Whose house do you say? Patrick. And we get in the car with the driver and he's like, you absolutely have to start recording these conversations that you're having. He goes, I just spoke. He goes, I spoke 2% of time.

Daniel spoke 49% of time. You spoke the other 49% of time. He goes, I have known him for four years, you got more out of him in four hours and I have in four years. Nobody can speak to the soul of the founder like you can in the world. You have to start recording these conversations. And that is the push. I was like, oh, that's, conversation's different. Like, I can't interview anybody. Like, I, like, that might be interesting. There could be a differentiation there. Are you ever going to monetize us in a different way than normal media ways, ads and

subscription? No, I don't think I'll ever do subscription again because I think that's, so you're only going to monetize it to ads. Yeah, I think the power of media is like, it's free and accessible and therefore it can compound through word or mouth. Just such a shitty business model for how much influence you have. I don't, well, we'll see. I have some other thoughts on there that I will

keep to myself. I think I have an earned secret. So there's one of my favorite tweets. This is what I will say. Like, you mentioned like taking out interesting ideas of the books and how do you do that or whatever the case is. And maybe sometimes my interpretation may be different

in other people's. I remember reading Cable Cowboy, which is supposed to be a biography of John Malone. Right. And, you know, I was like, oh, he, like, he is the person that invented the word EBITA. and he has all this ways to finance, and he's focused on cash phone.

There's all these other takeaways that I've heard other people describe that book. That's not the main takeaway for me. Fact is, like, most industries default into some kind of like oligarchy. And the cable industry, I think there's like eight, like, main players and, you know, the top two are bigger

and number six is a little smaller where the case was. And what's fascinating is, like, he's one of the eight, yet all the other players that are essentially competitors, like, go to him to, like, learn about, like their industry, this brand new industry that they are the ones,

essentially building the foundation, the one that has now grown crazy in the last like 50, 60 years where other cases. And so one of the important parts for me where I would like disagree with some of the stuff I can't say publicly is like, I saw this tweet one time. And it says, I think one of the most interesting ways to, or one of the ways to have the most interesting careers is to find an earned secret and exploit the hell out of it for decades. And this tweet was talking about Mark Leonard, who used to work in VC from Constellation Software saying, hey, these vertical market software businesses, they are shitty for VC,

but if I, they're great if I put it in a conglomerate and then everything that he did. So I think he started out of, I don't remember a number to say 50 million, 80 million and grind it to like 80 billion, whatever the number is. And so he had that earned secret. VMS, bad for VC, good for this other way. Let me just do that and he exploited the hell out of it for three decades. I think because I've strived to collect more information about podcasting almost anybody else, I think I have earned secrets that I don't think there is any limit to what the size or the performance of the business. No, and all the great ones, like, you know, we were talking about Oprah the other day. Like, there is, the breakthroughs don't particularly have like a blueprint where you're like,

and we were also talking about how like the people who are number one in certain things are literally a hundred times better than number two. So I binded that. Jay-Z has a line. If I'm going to make it to a billy, I can't take a same path. And so I'll be very eager to see what you're going to do. I hate advertising. In most cases, I ran an advertising business. When you rely solely on advertising, I hated it. But if you can make money in ways where I own bits of companies that I love to promote, or if you do it in some interesting way, then it becomes good. But the traditional form of advertising, I think, is a pain in the ass business model that only captures a fraction of the value that you create. And so I'll be very eager to

see how you will change that. And here's the thing. I'm very comfortable. like putting a lot more value into the world that that then I capture and I just think I'm going to capture more than like if you go back somebody asked me my friend at lunch yesterday uh asked me he's like what would like the 25 year old version of you think of this and it's like I don't even know if I can think in those terms it's like already wildly like exceeded I'm just very happy like where I'm at and like what I'm doing and I know that I are you a happy person I would just describe it to the happy person no no no no happy with the way he wants to work is going. Are you a happy person? I don't think you're happy. I think this is, again, why,

why is Daniel Act the number one on my, um, on my board of directors? I already mentioned one of them, like, he's pushed me in a certain direction. Another thing that he's taught me is like, you get around them and you realize, like, you don't have any ceilings. Dude, those people are really rare. I've been around a handful of them. It is contagious, and I'm always curious. I'm like, who gave you that? This is the key. This is where constant refinement of association, people hear that. They're like, great advice. They don't actually do it. So few people will do it. This is, I'm very interested in being one of those very few. I think about this a lot.

I take this very seriously. So I don't think I'm apt to answer your question. Another idea that I got from Daniel, which is on the first episode of Davis Center, which people should listen to if they haven't, and they have listened to it, they should watch it again. I'm going to do a founder's episode

based on the transcript of the conversation that I had with him, because there's so many good ideas in there. And I'm like, we printed out, it's like, I don't know, 60 pages, 70 pages, something like that. Like, it's crazy. It's like a little, it's like a miniature book. So impact over, and his whole thing,

he's like, you don't optimize for happiness, you optimize for impact, which is the exactly advice he gave Dara for Uber, the advice that he takes for himself. And, like, I am very happy. If you saw, this goes back to like, I don't need to capture,

I don't need to be, let's say, I don't know, whatever the number of value out into the world, and I only capture 1% of it or 2% of it. It's like, man, there's other things that are so, like, if you go and, like, you can go to the website right now and send me a message,

which I might have to stop reading because it's just like all these messages come in all day. Most of them are positive. But if you would just go, through like my emails, my DMs, the contact form. It's just like, these people are like, you change my life. And it's not me changing their life. They're like, basically, you have all these people like, hey, I really appreciate what you're doing. I want you to know that it has an

impact on my life. This guy chased me down at the airport today. And he's just like, you don't understand, like the difference of my life pre and post, like discovering your work. And so it's like, okay, that's not a, I can't take it to the bank and, you know, deposit that. But that's not, There's a very real tangible benefit from, and then this is the crazy thing. So the James Dyson episode, we just did, right? God bless Rob Moore, took 45 emails back and forth to get that scheduled.

It's just like this relentlessness. But everybody knew, like, he was my number one guy, that his first book is episode 25. Dude, I bought it Dyson because of you. Exactly. There, there I go. 25, 200, 300, episode 400. It's all about the same book.

The book that changed my life. the book that encouraged me to persevere when I had no reason to persevere. There was nothing that I was saying that this is going to be a success other than just relentless self-belief that I'm going to figure this out. If I focus on it and I want it to happen, I will make it happen. Like I feel like I have a very intense will to change like what I want and to happen in life to happen. And so the crazy thing is I've been talking about this guy for seven years. It was seven years in the making.

That when we started doing the previews for the episodes, showing the pictures, some of the trailers, some of the clips, some of the clips, then the episode comes out. Strangers I've never met are like, I'm unbelievably happy for you. I cannot. Yeah, I saw that. That was cool.

How crazy was that? I was pretty invested into it. So like, what is that? That is me capturing value. And this idea where like, oh, I have to hit a certain number or I'm not going to be happy. That's not wise. I'm trying, I'm not trying to be smart.

I'm trying to be consistently and that stupid. And if I can be consistently that stupid over a long period of time, I think that's going to result in me being wise. And that's what I'm after. That was a good ending. All right, that's it. That's a pod.

I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off. On a road, let's travel, never looking back. All right, my friends, I have a new podcast for you guys to check out. It's called Content is Profit. And it's hosted by Luis and Fonzie Camayo. After years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like Red Bull and Orange

Theory Fitness, Louise and Fonzie are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue. In each episode, you're going to hear from top entrepreneurs and creators, and you're going to hear them share their secrets and strategies to turn their content into profit. So you can check out content is profit wherever you get your podcast.