NASW Social Work Talks - EP 114: Marijuana reform policies and their impact Black and Brown communities

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

As of April 20, 2024, recreational use of marijuana has been legalized in 24 states, three U.S. territories, and Washington, D.C. But how have marijuana reforms affected Black and Brown populations that were heavily impacted by marijuana criminal prosecutions before legalization? NASW Senior Policy Adviser Mel Wilson sits down with Maritza Perez Medina, director of the Office of Federal Affairs at the Drug Policy Alliance; Chelsea Higgs Wise, executive director of Marijuana Justice; and Marvin Tolliver, a therapist at the Radical Therapy Center, to discuss this important issue.

Hello, everyone. My name is Mel Wilson. I'm a Senior Policy Advisor for the National Association of Social Workers, and I'm your moderator for today's podcast. Today, we'll be discussing how federal marijuana reform can impact the Black and Brown communities. We're talking with three marijuana justice experts and advocates, and they will share the latest changes in federal marijuana policy with us. We'll try to cover several questions. In general, we're going to be able to talk about what to expect on the federal marijuana reform front this year. What should the president and Congress do to end some of the most egregious harms of marijuana criminalization? As social workers, how can we help pass marijuana laws that are rooted in equity

and racial justice. Today's guests will answer some of those questions and give a status report on where things are. Having said that, I want to introduce or let the guests introduce themselves. After they do introduce themselves, I'm going to start off my questioning probably with Marvin. And so I'll start with Maritza. Could you briefly introduce yourself and we'll end it, Marvin? Sure. My name is Maritza Perez Medina. I'm the Director of Federal Affairs for the Drug Policy Alliance. The Drug Policy Alliance is a national nonprofit that works to end the war on drugs and the harms of the drug war. I also convened the Marijuana Justice Coalition, which is a national coalition made up of groups from all across the U.S. that believe that marijuana must be

decriminalized and that it should be legalized in a fair and equitable way. And it's a is a proud partner of that coalition. Thanks for having me today. Hi, everyone. My name is Chelsea Hicks-Wise. I'm with Marijuana Justice, and we work to repeal the prohibition to repair families, communities, and individuals impacted by prohibition, as well as to bring drug war reparations. We mainly work here in Virginia and support to be conveners of Southern Decrim right here. And we're really excited to also be working at the federal level with United for Marijuana Decriminalization and coalition with other partners to work for this de-scheduling effort.

Thanks for having us. Hey, everybody. My name is Marvin Tolliver. I'm a licensed clinical social worker here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'm not a marijuana justice expert, but definitely an advocate working with many, many different individuals who are who have been impacted by these types of laws. I work at a private practice called the Radical Therapy Center, where we prioritize folks with marginalized identities. So people of color, queer folks, immigrants, anyone with a marginalized identity. we prioritize folks like us. Excuse me. We also intentionally speak out around issues of social

justice, speak out around issues of white supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism, and how it's incredibly harmful to many of us today. So thank y'all for having me for a part of this conversation. I'm excited about it. You're welcome. And that's one of the reasons, Marvin, I wanted to start with you because I remember when the four of us got together in some pre-meetings or the passion you had in effect what got you into this these spaces and seeing something that was really compelling to us as we heard you and certainly probably in Philadelphia that you guys doing a great job so could you uh just give us where you are what what brought you here and why this passion and and talk in terms of the impacted populations

Sure. Again, my name is Marvin. If you are following me and listening to this podcast, I am just as surprised as you are that I'm on this podcast. But despite my critiques of the NASW, this is a huge issue, right? This is a social justice issue. This is disproportionately affecting Black and brown folks, folks in low-income communities of color, right? And we and we have clear evidence of that. Per our code of ethics, right? It's something that we need to advocate for as social workers. And reading directly from our code of ethics, I believe it's 6.01. Social workers should promote the general welfare of society from local to global levels. I'm going to say global levels one more time. And the development of people,

their communities, and their environments, right? So, again, this is in our code of ethics. If folks just became social workers to be therapists, you're only doing part of that job, right? We are trying to create a better world for everyone. You know, as social workers in direct practice, laws like these make things just so much more difficult as a social worker. And we witnessed this right because a lot of us are going to court with our clients we're going to you know potentially try to apply for snap benefits maybe and then get denied because of a potential record right so you know i really want to call for social workers to to challenge their own biases around this and also recognize the harm that's being done and once again it's mainly to black and brown

folks. And so, again, thinking about a social justice lens, again, this is something that social workers need to take seriously and really advocate for. That's great. That's something that that's really important. I'm so glad that you did say that to the social work community and something that we need to really respond to. So we're going to do a series of questions and I'll start off with Maritza. Maritza, as the head of DPA, the federal department for DPA, can you catch us up on where the Biden-Harris administration is in terms of decriminalization and descheduling? And just give us a general overview of that. Absolutely. So this is a really critical year for federal marijuana reform. And I say that because there's a potential big opportunity coming

down the pipe. In October of 2020, of 2022, President Biden made a big historic announcement around marijuana. That announcement included federal pardons for folks with federal marijuana convictions. He also encouraged states to govern people at the pardon people at the state level for marijuana offenses. In addition to that, he requested that HHS, Health and Human Services, and the Drug Enforcement Administration, the DEA, review marijuana status as a Schedule 1 drug. Marijuana has been listed as a Schedule 1 drug under the Controlled Substances Act since 1971, when the CSA was passed into law. So this is historic in the sense that this is the first time actually a president has called for marijuana status on the CSA to be reviewed. So it's an

exciting potential opportunity. We are watching closely to see what happens. We expect that the DEA will come out with a rule soon. HHS already completed their portion of the review and they recommended that marijuana be moved to schedule three. So now it's DEA's turn to do their own analysis. I will say while we're excited about the potential for reform, we're also watching this closely because if the DEA agrees with HHS and moves marijuana to schedule three that is concerning for our communities and you know the constituencies and the people that we fight for because unfortunately unless marijuana is moved removed completely from the controlled substance act unless it's descheduled the harms associated with marijuana prohibition will

will continue because keeping marijuana on the Controlled Substances Act, whether it be one, two, three, four, or five, means that we will still see criminal penalties. We will still see the collateral consequences associated with those penalties. It means that prohibition remains in place, and we don't want that. So we've been pushing to advocate already with the Biden administration to support descheduling, to come out in support of it. We, of course, want the Drug Enforcement Administration to do the same thing. There will be potentially a public comment opportunity um that we're hoping that people will engage in when that rule comes down and again we're not quite sure when it'll happen we we're sort of predicting it'll happen this year but

it's not it's not clear but what is clear is that there are things that president biden can do now to end some of the most egregious harms associated with marijuana criminalization and that's what we're pushing for so you know for example i said he announced federal pardons and ask states to do the same that's great but the reality is that those federal pardons only impacted a limited number of people um and that's because the pardons were only for simple possession and use and actually most cases at the federal level are more complicated than that so we really want to push him to do um expanded relief for individuals that way people can actually leave prison because unfortunately nobody was released from prison under the original pardon announcement

and also we should remember that a pardon is not an expungement so while it's a formal forgiveness from the administration and that is valuable in the person's life it actually doesn't remove the legal obstacles like an expungement would so that a person can move on with their life and do things like secure stable housing secure federal benefits to feed their families get a job or a license that can improve their life and well-being so we're going to continue to push this administration regardless what the dea says but this is a pretty incredible opportunity nonetheless that we're looking at probably this year. Very quickly, you used the word expungement and some people may not fully understand what this is. Just briefly, could you

sort of define that a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. So as I said, what we heard from President Biden was a pardon. So both the president and individual state governors have the opportunity to pardon criminal offenses. A pardon is a formal forgiveness. And sometimes it can remove some obstacles a person may have to move on from their life, but it actually doesn't clear a criminal record. Only an expungement can do that. So once a record is expunged, that means it's wiped away from a person's record and they can go on and live their life. They don't have to report that they were arrested for the specific offense. So an expungement is more far-reaching than a pardon. Thanks. We're going to get back to those areas. I thought it'd be a good idea to bring the big

issue of race and disparities. And Chelsea, I know you're really an expert in that area. Could you just really talk to the audience about the deep and harmful historical context of disparities in sentencing and arrests and the whole nine yards for the Black and Brown community? Sure. Thank you again, Mel. And something I failed to leave out of my intro is that I am also a social worker. So I was a practicing clinical social worker for over a decade here in central Virginia, serving mostly individuals and families that receive Medicaid. And I saw this problem firsthand with many of the folks that we were serving, particularly because the majority of people and families on my list were Black people. Historically, marijuana prohibition has come specifically to target certain communities. We have on record, particularly from former President Nixon's aide, to say that this was something that was criminalized very specifically to target people of a certain race, Black, Latinos, and folks that were anti-war. And I appreciate Marvin's nod to the global issue because this was always about limiting people from having global voices, right?

And if we criminalize them, then that removes them from many conversations as valid reporters or valid folks to really tell their story. So we know even further back prior to 1970s, marijuana and other substances have always been targeted for people of color to be removed from certain areas. We talk about sentencing. A lot of folks, including myself, were really drawn to this movement of prohibition after Michelle Alexander's book on the new Jim Crow. And we look at how the era of mass incarceration, which I like to tell people is just a time period where we have continued to put people in incarceration. At Marijuana Justice, we believe that anybody incarcerated is too many. So, you know, mass or or smaller numbers are actually too much. And so when we look at the time periods where this country has continued to incarcerate people at the highest numbers in the world, we see who those folks are.

And they are mostly black men. We hear numbers like the United States is incarcerating more black people than South African apartheid times. Right. So we have really created historical landmarks about how to continue to criminalize black people specifically, even after we had this thing called the 13th Amendment that really had that exception. Right. So marijuana prohibition has fed right into that 13th Amendment exception of we can still enslave people if they are prisoners. Right. And that's why we have come together to say we have to end this prohibition. We have to stop marijuana arrests. We have to continue to stop these types of roadside criminalization here in Virginia. And many states are really trying to take police power away from folks being able to stop search and seize because of the smell, because many law enforcements were

just using the smell, whether they smelled it or not, in order to have that interaction that we know if Black people are just interacting with law enforcement, that gives us an exponential chance to now have charges on us. And so what we're doing by really removing the prohibition, we're also removing the proximity of law enforcement to our communities and our families. That way we know that we can actually keep ourselves safer without this types of targeted criminalization. You know, just to speak to my fellow social workers for just one second about how important this is. As a social worker, I was able to see that whether we were trying to access housing, SNAP benefits, special ed with school, transportation, I mean, just medical benefits,

medical service, coordination, how we show up and when they see us makes a difference already based on the color of our skin. If we now have to come in and talk about someone with a past marijuana charge, or even if we disclose that they are a marijuana consumer, even in a legal state like Virginia, that family is open to discrimination. And my last thought of why this is so important for everyone is because here in Virginia, we actually just got vetoed our parental rights bill in Virginia. In Virginia, it is legal to possess and consume. But right now, if you pass, if you test positive for marijuana in Virginia, and you're at a hospital or a doctor's office, it's going to automatically trigger a CPS call from those social workers.

Those social workers do not have an option to use their discretion if the child is in danger, even because it's a legal substance. And so there are still, and that actions are taking more and more in account on Black families, particularly in rural parts of the state. And so we see the historical implications of prohibition, and we're still looking at the current, even in quote-unquote legal states, which is why organizations like Marijuana Justice, past social workers are stepping in and saying, we really need to do something about this now at a federal level that will reach people all the way down in rural parts of our country that need this benefit as well.

In North Africa, CPS, Child Protective Services, is that what you're referring to? Actually, this is an important topic. So I'll give others, Marvin, a chance if you wanted to add anything to this, to what Chelsea said, and also Maritza, if you want to add anything. Feel free at this point. You don't have to. I'm just going to throw it out there because it is an important topic. I did want to just add one other thing from what Maritza was saying about expungements. a lot of folks might also recognize the term sealed records, which is a lower form of having

your record cleared, that it's cleared for like housing, landlords, jobs, but the police system and the judicial system judges and prosecutors can still see it. So there are other levels even beyond expungement. Like Virginia, we do not have expungement. There's no such thing. We only have sealed records. So no matter what happens without this federal pardon, prosecutors, judges, And police will still be able to see these past records. And we know what that means. Right. And those are the collateral consequences of being caught up in that system.

Transitioning back, Marissa, to the process with de-scheduling. I know that there's a lot of discussion around decriminalization and also legalization. And I'm not sure that everybody really knows that distinction. And it's really critical, folks, to know what this really is. and the issue that that what we're asking for is is within the federal system so could you just speak to that and i think i might have a little follow-up question to that yeah um i did think that marvin wanted to uh add on to chelsea's question and i know i didn't i'm sorry because i i agree well i think it's a really important uh discussion but then i'll jump to the

question if you'd like okay great i missed great mark um no it's thank you um i was just going to to add some numbers to it um and just as i was looking and you know in the united states black folks are almost four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana i believe y'all can definitely fact check me i know y'all are experts um you know and also it was shown that you know in the places where um marijuana was decriminalized that nearly 20 i think for white folks uh there 20% less arrest, but only 8% less arrest for Black folks. And so that was also really eye-opening for me to really see those numbers and see how much race actually does play a role, right, in this. So that's just a quick thing I wanted to add. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Marissa, yeah, if you

could just pick up on the question. Should I repeat it or are you okay with it? Okay. The distinction between decriminalization and legalization. Sometimes folks who aren't like us, totally in these spaces every day dealing with it, it may be a little bit cloudy to them. And as it relates to federal offenses and this rescheduling decriminalization. Could you talk to us a little bit about that?

Yeah, that's a really great question. A lot of people confuse the two or conflate the two. When we talk about decriminalizing marijuana, we literally mean removing the criminal penalties associated with a marijuana arrest. When we talk about legalizing marijuana, we're usually referring to some sort of regulatory framework that creates a legal market for marijuana. So for example, there are many states across the country that have reformed their marijuana laws. Some have decriminalized, which is great. Some haven't gone further and legalized and created

legal market for marijuana. But there is a distinction. At the federal level, and as it relates to the CSA and what's happening right now with the Scheduled Review Order, as long as marijuana remains on the CSA, it will remain criminalized. So in order to decriminalize it, we need to ensure that it comes off of the CSA and that we address criminal penalties. So a rescheduling of marijuana, in other words, moving marijuana to a different number on the CSA will not decriminalize marijuana. Even if we descheduled, though, we still wouldn't legalize. In order to legalize, we actually need legislation, which is the work of the Marijuana Justice Coalition. Right. So the Marijuana Justice Coalition has been working toward passing comprehensive descheduling bills in Congress.

In the House, we have the Marijuana Opportunity Reinvestment and Expungement Act. In the Senate, we have the Cannabis Administration and Opportunity Act. Both bills would deschedule marijuana and address criminal penalties. They both would resentence and expunge convictions. So therefore, we can call them decriminalization bills. They also create a regulatory framework for marijuana. The CAOA, the cannabis bill in the Senate, I would say has a stronger regulatory framework. It's a true legalization bill, but that's what makes them legalization bills is because they address how marijuana is also going to be regulated once it becomes legal. That's very good information.

Another sometimes lack of clarity that happens in the broader community, Chelsea, is when we talk about the approach to marijuana, we talk about decriminalization, which, of course, means that they're taking them out of the criminal justice system and moving more towards a property health model. And again, a lot of people may not be really informed what that really means on a day to day process situation. Could you just give us some background on what that is? Sure. You know, when we start having this conversation, I start thinking about the who, what, where, when and why. And it really is a shift between looking at a prohibition model, which is we have law enforcement, we have judges, we have prosecutors, we have POs, we have juvenile justice systems, right? Like those are the folks that work in the criminal justice prohibition institution right now. If we were to move to a public health model, then we would start seeing doctors, psychiatrists, social workers, hospitals, health experts, scientists come into the conversation, as well as if young people are caught with marijuana.

They would be sent to a social worker to be done an assessment to say, hey, are you misusing marijuana because you might be creating some addiction? Or do you maybe need more holistic services and you're using marijuana as a way to cope, right? And so that completely removes a juvenile justice system, a probation officer. It removes the fines and fees that come with being arrested or having a summons at any age, right? So we really are looking at making a total shift of how consumers or even folks that don't consume at all that might just be in proximity to the plant, how they are now informed and treated and by whom, right? And so folks say, well, what do you mean if you're not even a consumer? Well, this would also take place like in our other institutions like hospitals and schools, right? everyone kind of remembers the Just Say No campaign. This public health model would also

create real comprehensive education around substance uses, around cannabis. I know DPA supports Safety First, which is a curriculum for schools that I've also worked with many Virginia schools just to introduce them to this type of newer age curriculum that focuses on the health. The focus is on the safety. And that really allows young people to have different pathways around drug use. And so when we're talking about public health, we are also just really taking into account our social determinants of health. And most of us know a lot about that, right? Those are our genetics. And there's plenty of evidence right now to show that a lot of the trauma and this targeting that has happened over generations is showing up genetically

and Black folks. So now what does that also look like in a prohibition world, right? That behavior that we're looking at, that is the behavior environmental, as well as your physical environments, your medical care, right? So now looking at public health, like, do you have access to even talk about marijuana use or to talk about different things, right? So making sure that that public health is even an option or accessible, or are we just automatically shoving people back into a criminal justice system. Because again, we're not looking at how drug policy and how new reform drug options have to be accessible to all people. And of course, we're looking at the other social factors of like, what's taboo. You know, a lot of people we, we know that black people can

take pain more, right. And so that might mean that someone might not get a cannabis prescription for pain because we're looked at as seeing as taking more and and there's just many more ways to retrain talk about cultural competency and many different professions because drug policy has really touched just about every institution that we have to interface with and so it's now how do we reframe get different messengers different experts to now look at how we are treating people around cannabis that doesn't criminalize them we haven't pre-discussed it that as you're talking the whole issue of diversion with the medical model, I think we need to pause. Did we lose Chelsea? Okay, I thought we lost you. Okay, back again. The whole issue of medical model and then

getting the law enforcement and diversion, is that an intersectional issue to be talked about and whether or not diversion is effective? So I really appreciate the question about diversion. I think that we do need to figure out a way to move people from one institution to the other. One thing I did not mention about public health is that sometimes we can also use the same policing surveillance and public health that we're already using in the criminal justice system. And guess who feels that the most y'all, but the same population, right? And so we've, I've been really careful watching what diversion does to a lot of my families and individuals as a past social worker. And it ends up still not allowing them to be seen as full humans many times. Sometimes we're standing up drug courts. And those have been things that just as a past social worker, I've seen again, trying to navigate that as real solutions have just not been the answer.

And so what I would say is that from the jump, right, from the moment somebody is caught with this, even if I hate to even use that because that gives a policing sense, that we need to make sure that they are pointed to social workers and other folks from a health perspective so that they don't have to necessarily get permission from the court to then get services, right? Exactly. Thank you. The issue, Maritza, of the Biden administration and what they can do as an administration around the whole issue of the scheduling, and I know the big piece of that is not Schedule 3, but decriminalization. And of course, they've been out in public with this and some very, very public announcements. Could you talk about that from an advocate standpoint and from a professional standpoint where DPA and the coalition is at with those positions that the administration is taking right now? Yes, absolutely. The coalition and the Drug Policy Alliance are pushing for the Biden administration to support de-scheduling. Ideally, President Biden would come out in support of the bills that I talked about earlier, either the Moore Act or the Cannabis Administration Act. He could say, Congress, send me a de-scheduling bill for my desk. Send me a bill that's centered on equity and marijuana reform. He hasn't done that. It's been really

disappointing because the truth of the matter is that's what we need in order to end a lot of the harms that we're talking about here. That said, there's so much that the president can do now. He can use executive authority to direct his agencies to review how they deal with marijuana. For example, federal drug testing is still totally legal and rampant across agencies. We also know that folks like veterans have trouble accessing even medicinal marijuana because of federal prohibition. I talked about earlier criminal penalties and how we still have people serving really draconian punishments at the federal level for marijuana activity. He could call for expanded pardons and clemencies for those folks. He can ask the Department of Homeland Security to stop

prioritizing people for deportation simply for marijuana activity. I think that's one thing that we don't talk about enough is the impact of marijuana prohibition on non-citizens. And I'm not even talking about folks without legal status who are so-called undocumented. I'm talking about anyone who is not a citizen of the U.S. So you could be a visa holder, a green card holder, some sort of worker with authority. As long as you're not a citizen, federal prohibition impacts you because it means that you're subject to automatic detention and deportation for any marijuana activity, even if you're complying with state law. One way that we see this play out is that we see medical marijuana patients or we see people who are participating as business owners

in the adult market face consequences because even working in state legal businesses or participating in state legal programs brings about immigration consequences. Biden could fix that by directing DHS to deprioritize those types of convictions and deprioritize detaining and deporting people for marijuana activity. So immigration reform intersects again, all these intersections with these policies are really critical. Actually, this is a question that both Chelsea and Marvin, if you want to get into, because really I'm asking in your opinion, what the administration can do or what it should be doing. So Marvin, you want to jump in a little bit on that? I mean, sure. I am from the generation that we were told always ask why.

And another statement that someone mentioned to me was to follow the money. And then another statement more recently by Mark Lamont Hill that I heard was that America doesn't have feelings, it has interests. And, you know, when I, again, I was researching a little bit and I'm thinking about who is gaining, right, from black and brown bodies being in prisons, right? And so private prisons are paid anywhere between $100 and $150 per day per incarcerated person, right? And so let's say a prison has 100 people in that prison. They're getting $10,000 to $15,000 thousand dollars a day right so that's three hundred thousand to four hundred and fifty thousand dollars a month and if we multiply that by twelve again we're looking at multi-million

multi-billion dollar uh industry the prison industrial complex right and so i don't know of any prison that only has a hundred you know inmates in it maybe they exist maybe they don't i don't know but again we have to really think about how capitalism and how greed plays into this and how, again, it's at the expense of Black and brown folks, right? And so, again, we as social workers, we really have to take a look at who's capitalizing from this, who's gaining and who's losing, right? And so the folks that we usually work with, they're the folks that are losing. And so it's making our jobs more difficult to then fix the harms done by white supremacy

and capitalism. I would like to follow up on that if that's okay. I'm glad that Marvin brought up private prisons because you asked what can President Biden do. So President Biden campaigned on shutting down private prisons. At the beginning of his administration, he put out some sort of announcement around ending private prisons. And that is true for the most part, but private prisons are still in existence. The federal government still has private prison contracts for non-citizens so immigration prison prisons are still privatized largely privatized um another way that we see this play out going back to what i was saying earlier with immigration

is even the biden announcements on marijuana uh excluded non-citizens um while the pardons did include green card holders um so if you're a green card holder perhaps you did get a pardon under the biden announcement um that's only one type of immigration status there are many types of immigration status. And at the end of the day, even if you are a green card holder who has that pardon, you still face these immigration penalties. It doesn't do anything in terms of keeping you in this country. Like the crime is still on your record. You still could face detention and deportation despite that pardon. Great. Chelsea, anything to add to what they said? You know, I think we, it's important to continue to push Biden because he said he would do this. And, you know, it is getting harder and harder for a lot of folks to continue to believe in politicians. And, you know, if anything, we need to continue to just bring out what you say you would do four years ago.

Um, and that's, that's the hope people bring to, you know, to vote. Um, and it's important that we do listen to folks that have real solutions like executive orders and legislation and, uh, continue to point people to knowing what the administration can do. Um, but I think it's just social workers we have to continue to show up and push this right now because uh this is what our elected officials said they would do we're supposed to be holding them accountable that is what democracy is supposed to be about um and so we just all need to do our part and continue to push biden but there are many things that he can do many experts that are continuing to bring up things that he can do um and so we're like hey pick one of them i didn't want to leave out

congress but it's uh uh you you touched on it you touched on a couple of bills this whole issue of bipartisanship is always thrown out there and i know that you work so so much on the hill and have such expertise in that area so i didn't want to sound like we're just talking about the Biden administration, obviously the Congress itself has a major role. Did you want to touch a little bit on that? Yeah, we would love to see Congress pass a comprehensive descheduling bill. The two bills that I named are really the only descheduling bills in Congress that approach marijuana through a lens of equity, racial justice, and social justice. Again, the Moore Act in the House is a very comprehensive bill that would deschedule marijuana, resentence and expunge

marijuana convictions, address the collateral consequences of marijuana criminalization, such as inaccess to federal benefits because of a previous conviction. It would also address immigration penalties, as we talked about, and it would create a pathway for folks who have been directly impacted by prohibition to enter the regulated market, which is vital. The Cannabis Administration and Opportunity Act in the Senate would do the same thing. The bills are slightly different, but the overall provisions are pretty on par with one another. Both bills are bills that we support, that we want to see passed into law, that we want to see the president come out in support of.

But in order to get there, we've got to continue to build our coalition both on the Hill and off the Hill to get this bill across, to get a bill across the finish line. It's exciting that both of these bills are out there now. now. The MORE Act has already been introduced. I think it was reintroduced in Congress last year. The CAOA is also out there. If folks are interested in supporting those bills, the Drug Policy Alliance has some really good resources on both bills and ways to contact your member of Congress in support of them. So definitely follow the Drug Policy Alliance to stay in touch and learn how you can show support for those bills. and this actually segues into to both marvin and to chelsea about social workers

to to marisa's point what what what can social workers do nationally including nasw to really be a part of not only the conversation about generating and moving towards change uh we we talk about uh in practice areas and working with with directly with the client population but But, of course, legislation and policy are just as important. So for both of you, because of your social work status, could you talk about that? And Chelsea, if you want to. Sure. You know how social workers can can continue to show up and do this.

Number one, you know, we actually have a letter that can be signed in support from social workers to President Biden to say that we need to reschedule and that rescheduling is not enough. So that's a simple lift that you will be able to sign and show up for the next couple of weeks. I would also really make a call to social workers to show up on different levels of government and to speak out. You know, the parental rights bill here in Virginia was really formed and we're continuing to update it because social workers have reached out to me in their current settings and said, this is what's happening and saying, this is why, you know, choices have actually been removed from my hands and our people are at risk. So I really appreciated what Marvin said at the top about if you're just here for therapy, you're only doing part of the job because it's important to do the holistic work as a professional, not just in services, and make sure that you are helping to look at policies, regulations that can be changed and supported.

And you don't have to do that work. There are good folks like us that can do that policy work and we work together. So joining organizations like NASW and continuing to push back as well as critique and be like, what are y'all doing? The MJC? Is it going further far enough? Continue to ask questions like that. But I think right now, too, is that there are a lot of associations and meetings and credentials and classes and trainings about social work with social workers, particularly around diagnosing around drug policy and substance use. But what else are we doing as well to look at how we can change the policy of it that actually supports our job and the folks that we're serving even more? So let's start to include some of those more policy conversations to the treatment conversations. yeah as you ask this question i'm thinking about uh you know most i believe most social workers are direct practice social workers and um just thinking about our clients right thinking about

an individual who's taken away um he's being held being imprisoned how the rest of the family is going to survive. This is a loss of income. This is a loss for the kids. This is the loss for the partner. If there's a partner involved, this is potentially traumatic for multiple people involved, right? And so, and many of us who have worked in schools have seen the symptoms of kids who experience losses like this. We see how it affects folks' mental health. We see firsthand the sadness, the pain, the utter confusion of like, what the hell am I going to do? And so if we don't support the macro level bills, the laws, push our president, our local governments, everybody, we have to use ourselves. We have to use our bodies, put our bodies on the line.

sometimes. We have to use our voices. We cannot continue to believe that, oh, Chelsea will handle it. Marissa will handle it, right? We have to say, I am going to do something, and I'm going to hold my other social work colleagues accountable as well. I'm going to hold the NASW accountable as well. This is what we need to do. We also need to recognize, right, that some of us as social workers are also causing this harm. Because some of us are doing home visits and maybe we see marijuana in a bag. Maybe we smell marijuana. Maybe we see a person in the household that may have been using and we're automatically calling child protective services on this family. When we know, all of us know the stressors that are happening right now and that have been

happening since the pandemic and probably before the pandemic, right? There are multiple genocides happening right now. We are still, I don't even know what's happening with the pandemic. No one really knows, right? Like there's so, you know, as far as the economy, things are going up and we don't, and our paychecks are not. And all of that causes stress. And so for a lot of our clients, they can't go to therapy or that sometimes can't afford therapy. Sometimes they may not have a safe space. Sometimes they may not have coping skills. And so marijuana may be the only thing that they turn to on the same schedule as heroin too, by the way, right? Which doesn't make any sense. And I would additionally say, I'm sorry, go ahead.

I would just additionally say let's be real some social workers and helpers use marijuana as well and so let's think about how some of us have used it we're not criminals though but how other folks are using it

and they're being labeled as criminals I really think that was very powerful And in fact, there's a national conference coming up with NASW, and I don't know, because I'm not on those committees, whether or not there's a panel on this. There needs to be on that whole issue of macro involvement and the role of macro social workers. Sometimes we do. I can get a little preachy on this, so forgive me. But sometimes we do totally focus too much on that micro notion, and we're not looking at that face-to-face, where you're at with family. I've been there. I've worked 20 years in this. So I understand that face-to-face. I understand the policy. I understand the legislation.

And what you just brought up about the macro is really critically important. So thank you. Thank you for that. And Mel, can I just jump in to that point really quickly? When I was an undergraduate and I was looking to go to graduate school, I asked so many of my mentors, do I go micro or do I go macro? And every single one of them told me to go micro because it's the only way you'll get a job. It's how you'll make money. And if you ever want to switch, it'll be easier to switch from micro to macro. okay um i'm here to tell anyone that's listening let's all change our narrative around that when young people are coming and asking these questions and i'm here to say that hey if you're a social worker and you're interested in macro we need you i am meeting social workers all across this industry and drug policy it's almost a surprise that we see each other but it shouldn't be in fact, we should expect to see each other there. So I really appreciate, Mel, that you're bringing

that up even to the upcoming conference. And I hope those thoughts continue to come up because I remember when I made the switch to macro, I wasn't confident. I didn't know if there would be a job for me. And now I realize how important it is for me to be in this space. So really wanted to also just kind of push that narrative change out there for our industry. Yeah, I think it is important so that's something we all need to need to focus on um marissa i'm transitioning again marissa i know a lot of things coming up uh around advocacy in the city i think it's uh on the 18th and the 20th or during that period uh could you just share with everyone where what's going on the mobilization and the advocacy in dc yeah absolutely there's a lot of activity taking place

around mid-April, around 4-20, April 20th, a few activities in support of de-scheduling, in fact. So the Last Prisoner Project is leading a whole coalition of people who are in support of de-scheduling, both individuals and organizations. The Drug Policy Alliance is going to be involved in that action, which is going to consist of a lobby day that's taking place on Thursday, April 18th, where we will go lobby in support of de-scheduling bills in Congress. The Marijuana Justice Coalition and DPA will be there going to different Senate offices and asking that people support the Cannabis Administration and Opportunity Act. In addition to that, there's going to be a White House visual where people can, again, raise concerns that nobody has been released from federal custody because of the pardon announcement or due to the pardon announcement, which means we need more. We need to release people who are currently in prison for federal marijuana convictions.

So there's going to be activity at the White House to raise awareness around that. In addition to that, the National Cannabis Festival is coming to D.C. once again. The National Cannabis Festival holds a festival every year in D.C. around 420. This year, they're also doing a policy summit, something that they've done for the last couple of years or so. So there'll be a policy summit in D.C. at MLK Library with both lawmakers and advocates talking about federal marijuana reform, including what we talked about today, the CSA, descheduling, rescheduling, all of that. And I might be forgetting something, but there's a lot going on that week. If I'm forgetting something, I know Chelsea probably knows if I'm missing anything. Well, don't tell Chelsea.

Maybe she has something to it. Maritza has done a fantastic job. So I'll just say again, April 17th is the Policy Summit. Come join us. On the 18th is the Unity Day. We're going to be rallying, lobbying, visual. And then the Cannabis Summit is the 19th and the 20th. Well, you will be able to find these organizations, including United for Marijuana Decriminalization

and the Policy Advocacy Row. You'll be able to actually also hear in the Policy Pavilion on that Saturday, 420, more about descheduling. I believe that's at 330. You can come check that out. You might hear National Cannabis Festival and feel like it's just a good time. We have good we learn good and we really community really well, too. So it's a it's a place for a building and not just fun. And if you can't go to any of those things in person, we want to really push you to decriminalize marijuana dot dot com decriminalize marijuana dot com. And there is a petition that you can sign to tell Biden to de-schedule and de-criminalize marijuana right now.

And if you're a social worker, which you probably are listening to this podcast, you can also join our social worker letter as an individual organization or even as a student. So many opportunities to step in. We're going to share some of that Maritza through information through our web pages or NASW. Yeah. Is that true? Yes. So there should be links associated with this podcast, including a letter to a petition in support of descheduling marijuana and then a letter for folks in the social worker community to sign a letter in support of marijuana descheduling. And that's a letter that's going to President Biden in support of descheduling.

And that's open to social workers, whether they are current or former. It's inclusive of students and organizations. okay listen as a wrap-up opportunity for all three of you to uh talk a little bit about your organizations if you want to or make any closing uh remark that you may want to and i'm looking at marissa just coincidentally so i'll just start with with her uh just anything that you want to say yeah you know i think um this was a really powerful conversation and i was really happy to do this because, one, I have a lot of respect for the work that social workers do. It's a tough job and such an important job. And I always appreciate that people care enough about

our communities to do that tough work. At the same time, it's important that you use that power in a good way, in a way that benefits people and communities. Here's an opportunity to do that by supporting the ending of prohibition of marijuana, by supporting marijuana decriminalization. So I would encourage you to get involved. It might sound intimidating if you've never been politically engaged, but there are tons of ways to get involved. Even listening to this podcast is a way of getting yourself educated, having conversations with your social worker friends or your family members that's one way to get engaged but there are actionable ways that you can take as well so for example if you're listening to this podcast you're also going to notice that

there are links that will drive you to different petitions on our organizational web pages so you can learn more about this issue and sign your name sign your name to some letters and petitions that that can really make an impact? Yeah, for me, folks can follow me. Mostly I'm on Instagram at M as in Marvin Tolliver underscore LCSW. I have a TEDx talk that folks can listen to. I have a Smithsonian channel feature.

I'm a cycle breaker as part of Oprah's Color of Care documentary. therapists for the NBA Players Association. So a lot of just cool things. I also offer consultation. I have a men's group for Black men, another podcast called Dear Black Man, You Good. And so just really, if folks want to connect with me,

go to Instagram, go to marvintoliver.com. Again, social workers, as one of my favorite social workers, Kim Young, Dope Black Social Worker says, if you are just here for therapy, then social work is not for you, right? We need to be making sure that we are building a better world for ourselves, for our clients, for folks coming after us. And last but not least for us, Chelsea, any closing remarks? Thank you again for having myself on. Marijuana Justice is really excited to be part of this conversation. We're inviting everyone to come subscribe to MarijuanaJustice.org and follow us.

We want to continue to push that this is so important, not just for the industry, for our people, but particularly for Black folks that are majority in the South, right? We are mostly showing up in the U.S. South, most people of color in the U.S. South, most of our trans folks and families are in the South. And without this federal action, we will continue to be the targets. We want to encourage everyone to continue to follow us on social media at THC Justice Now. And you can also find me on LinkedIn, on X, or formerly known as Twitter at Chelsea Wise RVA or Instagram, Chelsea Higgs Wise. Thanks so much. thank you all three of you i think this has really been a great great conversation on behalf of nasw thank you so much for joining joining us and maybe we'll have another opportunity

to follow up at some point so thank you very much you have been listening to nasw social work talks a production of the national association of social workers we encourage you to visit nasw's website for more information about our efforts to enhance the professional growth and development of our members, to create and maintain professional standards, and to advance sound social policies. You can learn more at www.socialworkers.org. And don't forget to subscribe to NASW Social Work Talks wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next episode.