NASW Social Work Talks - EP103: Supporting People Grieving After Losing a Loved One to Suicide

Episode Date: June 20, 2023

Christine Gilchrist, LCSW, is a specialist in suicide in prevention and in helping those who are survivors of suicide. She speaks about how she and other social workers help people who are grieving after losing a loved one to suicide. Visit the show notes for related resources.

This episode is sponsored by Connect to End COVID-19. Welcome to Social Work Talks. My name is Greg Wright. Suicides were on a decline in the United States. However, lately, there has been a rise. I'm here with Chris Gilchrist, who is a social worker in Hampton, Virginia. She is a specialist in suicide prevention and also helping those who are survivors of a suicide. Welcome to Social Work Talks, Chris. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I've looked forward to this, Greg. Let's get at it. How did you at first get involved in the area of suicide prevention and also grief counseling after a suicide may happen? After I got my bachelor's at Ohio University and had three kids, went back for my master's at

Norfolk State, go Bobcats and Spartans. I was looking, my faith is important to me, so I actually was looking at a hospital chaplain, but women could not do that then. So I went secular root and got my master's, did advanced counseling with a group in DC, did for people who know CPE, I did units of CPE, clinical pastoral education. And then my first job where I got money was for private practice. And it was a pretty large private practice. And I was assigned a woman who lost her husband to suicide and had children and so I did like we social workers do did some research and talked to some people because I'd never had that before but I can tell you as soon as I met with her and she told me the story and how she was struggling with not just the

loss, but the trauma and the tragedy of this, something stirred in me. And I thought maybe that's something, a place where I could help. Coincidentally or not, within a month, this is the truth, I was asked to lead a bereavement group for people who had lost a loved one to suicide. And I thought about it. I almost, to be honest, didn't do it because I was worried that the pain for that loss. It's true. It's so great that maybe I, the leader should be somebody who's experienced it themselves. So I prayed about it. I thought about it. And then I came to this great realization. I hope every social worker does, which is I do not have to experience everything to be able to help somebody. I'm not a recovered alcoholic. I have not as incest survivor. I

haven't lost someone to suicide but there is a universal there is a way i can be well informed and skilled in a way that i can facilitate compassion and healing so that's how um it came together then i was in um it's been 35 years ago that i started this so i was in that group with private practice. Now I'm solo practice, and I neglected to put in my bio, I have three children, and two of them are LCSWs. One is a pastor and an LCSW. His practice is a light into my path. It's from a psalm. And then my daughter is solo practice. Then I have a son, Scott, Amy, Kurt, who keeps us honest. He's an attorney. Gotcha. So, but we have a good mix. Social work in our blood. Yeah. And it's always a good thing to have an attorney in the family

too. But I also like having to have a daughter who's a social worker and it's a wonderful thing to have in your family. Trust me. It is. I would do some supervision for her, but she'd have to treat for breakfast. Okay. A good deal. So you are involved with the Hampton Roads Survivors of Suicide Support Group. And I was wondering... Not a therapy group. Yes, exactly. So how did that group form? And what is the benefit of having a support group where a survivor of a suicide is able to interact with others right i make it clear it's not a therapy group although it's very tempting sometimes to just really take over and maybe get things a little healthier but actually it was three sisters uh three decades and five years ago who heard of a of a walk so that that

was a way you could remember somebody and they asked if we could have a walk and um so i said Well, let's have a couple of months and see if people are interested. So it started with that. The suicide group started with, you wanted to know, I'm sorry, you wanted to know why, how it started? Yes. It started, I just knew some people and got my name out. You have to find ways to get your name out.

I knew people through pastoral. I knew people through graduate school. And so then somebody stepped in and we started a website. And the word by word of mouth is the main way. I've never charged anything, too. That's another way how you can get somebody to be a part of a resource. I'm hoping maybe there's a social worker who may be touched to do this. But so just by word of mouth and there's no fee. That matters. That matters a lot to people. So how is it a benefit for a person to be around others who are in a similar situation of being a survivor of a suicide? Right. Well, again, it's not therapy.

So the leader needs to not just make sure nobody monopolizes, but you want to make sure to help them differentiate and point out the benefits of how individual counseling could work. and you also want to assess. I always have people, before they can come, Greg, call. So it gives me a chance on the phone to kind of do an assessment. I bet in 35 years there will be maybe 10 people who they weren't ready for the group or the group wasn't ready for them. So I might suggest they get a counselor. So I do that.

when they come it's an open-ended group um and people call are welcome whether it's recent and statistically it's proven the sooner the better for them to come um have somebody presently in the group who lost their son to suicide 26 years ago and has come so what i did it just was coincidental, Greg, but last night was our SOS group for the month. So I asked them, I said, I would like your voice to be heard on this NASW podcast. So let's go around. Often we'll start with, you have to start with those classic introductions in this group. I am, I lost my son. His name is, people are encouraged if they want to bring a picture, which moves your heart, their heart and everyone else's. And so you introduce yourself, you start talking, and often at the end we'll have some, again, around the group closure.

So I ask people, so what would you say you have gotten from this or what makes a difference for you? May I read a few of them? Oh, absolutely. Thank you. I was welcomed into the group on the first night I attended another person I was met with understanding kindness genuine concern for my profound grief at SOS I'm surrounded by others who have experienced the same trauma and loss it helps me to know that someone finally understands what I am going through SOS has provided me with a safe place to discuss and often taboos

subject. SOS and grief counseling saved my life. I now understand that something so horrific as losing a loved one to suicide is survivable with group support. It is so sad that a group like this exists, but I am so very thankful that it does. Once a month, I do not have to fake it. I was so touched with what they said that you could not have scripted better. The people who are grieving with me have become like friends from a shared traumatic event in our life. There's a bond that we don't ask for, but we do deserve. My first meeting was the first time I did not feel alone after my wife's death, just two more. It is nice to belong to a group that knows your pain without saying too many words.

It saved me being part of this group. It lets me know I am normal and not crazy with how I feel. And the last one, our first visit to SOS was the first time we felt understood. It was the first time we had been in a room where people truly did know the level of pain we were in. Wow. There were that many people in the group. Yeah, very, very powerful. but but and it could be that's what you want for any topic especially this group that's stigmatized

yes and not losing a loved one to suicide so let's like talk about you had said um earlier that a person has to be ready to join a support group so as um a therapist and a social worker um what are the signs that a person um is ready to like share that trauma with like others this is the one time i i don't see them which we know from covid seen non-verbals are powerful so i'll ask a couple of questions i'll ask them if you uh some questions that i'll kind of know that they are if you don't mind do you mind telling me who who it is that you lost i'll know a lot in how they talk and they might not be able to say he hanged himself or um i will um another thing i'll be sure to say i let them know what the group is like and i'll say

you really don't have to talk except for the introductions it's a classic thing it's what support. Oh, and I would let them know it's a support group. And I'll assess what kind of problems they have. There's always conflict before suicide, tiptoeing, things aren't healthy usually. And so I will ask them, what was their previous attempt? I'll ask them some things as I'm assessing going along the way. I will let them know, you don't have to say anything. This is a place where you can listen and i bet what someone else says you will have felt i thought but then i tell them about the introductions because they need to know and that would be the that would be the last thing but it is important like everyone else in the group will do and it's

rare after i've hopefully gently with compassion been listening um they they oh i i can't do that that so i i will listen i will do some kind of test things to see how they handle it at the time while we're talking without other people and 14 people is a great number big enough you don't have to talk, but, um, small enough, I'll make sure everyone has a chance. So that assessment is important. Um, is there, um, a fear that by like sharing your, um, experience that it's a re-traumatization? You know, I think that's a great question too. One of the, one of the judgment parts is so these people

have taken their lives in violent ways. So I will in that conversation have an idea where they are in that. And so I don't let people

get too graphic. And we have actually an ex-marine brought us. He lost a buddy of his to suicide. We have this little table that just holds two tissue boxes. And so when somebody's real tearful, somebody else will end up taking the tissue box to them. You know, it's just nice fellowship that is formed. So I will not let there be so much crying that that you can't stop so of course i know if there's a new person if there's a new person before we have the round table i are in the intros i will make a point and we have somebody

new tonight it's mary she lost her son and when i and i'll let her know i'm going to do that Oh, yeah. Yeah. Those those steps, you know, we believe in small steps to make a difference. So our society has a hard time dealing with like death generally and with like suicide. I mean, that's even a greater stigma. You've been in this arena for a while. And I was wondering, are you noticing that that stigma is like easing or is it just as a taboo like subject 35 or so years back that it is now? Now, see, I use the time I say something, I wait and see how I can make it count the most and use the smallest amount of time because I want them to talk. So sometime I will say something like, you know, unlike other diseases that you may have, you know, the number one cause for suicide is untreated depression. It's a medical condition.

It's diagnosable. It's treatable. And early intervention even matters. It's a medical condition. And I said, but there was a time when we didn't have an understanding. We didn't know what to do when somebody's behavior and thinking was different. Fifth century, let me think, St. Augustine, 12th century, Thomas Aquinas. It was considered a crime, a sin.

Now we've advanced medicine, chemistry. Now we know. It's a fact. It's not an opinion. The number one cause is the medical disease of depression. So the best way to counter that stigma and all of that prior thinking is to replace it with the understanding we're talking a medical condition. If you don't have healthy lungs, you can't breathe well. You don't have a healthy heart, you're slower in running.

If you don't have a healthy brain, your reality is distorted. You don't think straight. Your brain isn't functioning. You may decide to take your own life, but it's not based on reality-based information. You're not thinking straight. So when you replace that, it helps. It sheds light. It gives hope. This is fixable. And it helps them let go of that. And then I might say I've done a lot of talks with the military. Hampton Roads has all five. It sounds like you've been here in Virginia Beach, Norfolk, the largest naval installation in the world. I'm a Navy brat. So I grew up in the Navy. My brother was a Naval Academy graduate. We were on the base there when I was like a little kid. So, yeah, I'm familiar with that. Oh, well, then, you know, our seven cities. So you give a shout out to Hampton Roads, too.

So, so I will say too, sometimes I've, I've met for two hours alone with the Admiral at the Pentagon and I talked and I would say died by suicide or lost their battle with depression, but he's saying to commit suicide, to commit suicide, to commit suicide. So very respectful. And I said, sir, if you notice, I don't say to commit suicide. suicide but i would not say to commit pancreatic cancer either because i know they're both i had said this very respectfully because you don't want to point out the admiral maybe made a mistake

so um so there's another way to say it and he wonders he's wondering what is it and so of course of course i tell him because this is a medical condition and we're conjuring that we're conjuring that stigma. Now, you are working with a large military audience there. I grew up in the military and I noticed like issues like alcoholism and domestic violence and others, they kind of tend to be like brushed over or ignored. So for a thing like suicide, is it even more difficult to work on this issue with a military audience compared to a civilian one, Chris? I just love that. I love that question. And every command in the Navy, but it's true for, you know, you've got Langley Air Force Base, you know, you've got the Army.

They have, for their commands, suicide prevention instructors. They'll have training. They have different plans. And the stats, when we look at stats with the 21 statistics, which were it was over 47,500 and of that per 100,000 white males were 26.4 per 100,000 black males 14.1 hispanics 8.7 military was 24.8 mostly you would know mostly young in a enlisted so the 24.8 you know is somewhere it's it's not it is higher than civilians but not by many points i was surprised it's very hard you probably could imagine this it's very

hard to get military stats sometimes but what i noticed that's different in working with them is, and I've worked with them a lot. I feel very honored. My dad was Air Force pilot. So they'll look at resilience and they look at all these different philosophies, Greg. But what I said to the Admiral too, Admiral Carter, I said, all of these are,

the military wants to provide for our military folks and their families, the dependents and dependents. They want to do that. But what, in my view, what an important issue is, Greg, you're going to appreciate this. How do you reconcile the military persona and the individual's humanity? And so how do you do that? You've got to find a way.

So how does the leader, when you're pumped leadership and all the military stuff, and then how do you handle the grieving or how do you handle the stress? You're supposed to be a leader. And the truth is, if you get help through the military, they're your employers. So this is a paradox, but I hear it all the time. And the paradox is somebody is severely depressed. They're thinking of suicide. Oh, I don't want the military to know. And so I say, why is that?

And of course, they're going to say, it might ruin my career. So you're thinking it might ruin your career, but life is so painful, you want to stop the pain and end your life. Engage in NASW's National Connect to End COVID-19 campaign today. It's a CDC-funded initiative to support social workers and their clients in informed vaccine decision-making. NASW and the NASW Foundation are partnering with the University of Texas at Austin Steve Hicks School of Social Work to provide national webinars, chapter trainings, tools, and information that promote vaccine confidence among social workers and equip them to support clients in informed vaccine decision-making.

Visit NASW's website to learn more and join the campaign. So that's what I think the real challenge is. And I am in touch that I know even when they have support groups after, I mean, they had two suicides, helicopter command within a couple of weeks of the bush. You know, these aircraft carriers, a couple of years ago, they had three in the bush in a couple of months. So you've got to find a way to help them grieve and heal, but yet they're afraid they don't talk from their heart. They don't say that.

They're trying, but with the military, I'll let them know. And I did a stand down for USS Vinson, and I told the CO, I'm not going to do a stand down without telling them, but I want to tell you first so you're not surprised, that when in active duty, if they're experiencing depression, they also can go to counseling with their wife for marital counseling to have another way. and you can do that usually outside of the military dependence can so that means your records are private now the the ceo i forget his name at this time but was not crazy about that but i said having it as having access different ways to get help is proven to make it to make a difference. I want to, yeah, that's a good solution because I grew up in the military and I had always like heard, I am afraid if I say this, it will affect me because, you know, there's a climb up the ladder. Everyone wants a promotion, et cetera. So, you know, that's actually a good

solution if you are um a married person but if you're like not if you're um a single like person and you don't have a spouse um there's not pay out of pocket but and also there are mostly united way funded counseling centers where they'll negotiate a fee i always have the numbers with so that is another option and the csb you know every i don't i assume i hope this is national every city has their own community service board yeah yeah exactly is that mandated i would think i don't know but um we'll like find out and like like putting in our resources with this podcast Absolutely. Don't mind. I was like looking at some like figures from the CDC and it said death by like suicide has actually been on a decline before the pandemic. And then they started to inch back up again. And I was like wondering, is it like social isolation?

Like what has what is your like take on like why our suicide rates are now going back up lately? I guess this is a disclaimer, Greg, is suicide risk variables. Some are very obvious, like during the pandemic, worried about, do you keep your job? Is a loved one going to die? So the risk factors were high, but actually the overall rates were lower. So let's look at that. There was a slight decline, actually, before the pandemic, just slight, so that there were 46,000-some deaths. The year before that, there were about 48. From 2000, I think it's 7, to 2019, well, up until the pandemic. But it was lessening before that. The rates always went up.

And this decline was 219 or 220. That decline is the first time in about 20 years the suicide rate went lower. And so someone's thinking, so how could that be when there's an increase of risk factors? But even a bit before that, I like to think, Greg, that maybe, and I'm talking to all social workers. Maybe we are making a difference and letting people, maybe we're replacing the stigma of depression with hope and healing, getting help, accessing help. So I like to think that's part of it. Also with the pandemic, it seems counterintuitive, but families are together. hopefully there's some healthy loving interaction parents are able to observe their kids more

so hopefully that's i like to think that's it and it's not some oh i hope i don't think we've said that's climate affected although we do know the time of the year when suicide rates go up actually and people don't usually think correctly about that but so that's that's all i can think of but i can tell you since the pen since the pandemic hit and now i'm not wearing a mask you know it's it's gone back up yeah yeah so it was 48 200 something like that um what are the signs that um a family member or a friend should like look out for if um they think that um a person might die by suicide i mean is is like they're um a behavioral like change because i've heard from several folks that i know that they had no idea like oh we were out and we had

um a dinner out um a nice like evening um a movie out and the next day this thing bought a new pair tennis shoes yeah two days ago yeah i hear that so much and when i initially meet with the family that 90 some percent is the case as i talk with the family so i have to be gentle but also i want them to be well aware because if there's a depression i'm sorry if there's suicide for a family member they're five times at greater risk for suicide so helping generate healthy healing is also suicide preventing so you want to be careful and know what you're doing so but after when i'm talking with them i'll see i'll hear all the symptoms i'll hear all the symptoms so so much is education and the symptoms are and affect you

physically affect you cognitively and emotionally physically you lose weight or you're not sleeping right or you have a loss of energy lethargic your you may look less nice because your hygiene is going down you're performing under underperforming so it's you it's behavioral it's emotional you don't just feel but you feel useless you feel hopeless it's never going to get better there's nothing i can do and the feeling when somebody says this in the group may draw tears is i'm not worth anything to anybody anyway that cognitive those emotions and the cognitive beliefs coupled with those emotions and remember depression i hate this symptom but it's one of them is isolation

and when you withdraw when you isolate you're isolating yourself with those beliefs it'll never get better nothing i can do people are better off without me so it's cognitive and your concentration and your memory is impaired um behaviorally and emotionally so so so those are some of the it gets you on all the fronts of who you are yes so um if i'm a loved one how can i help though i mean should i rush um the like person into like therapy of um of uh some sort are there um support lines i mean i know that we like have um our call lines now our suicide our prevention lines. If I'm noticing this with a spouse, a loved one, a child, a parent, what are some steps that a person might take? Well, with that, this is included with family,

surprisingly, or maybe not, but co-workers or anybody, people are conditioned to believe that if I say the word suicide, or if I suggest maybe they're depressed, or something along those lines, you're going to create the idea. Believe me, if you're noticing they're depressed, they're thinking about suicide and so let's figure out a way to say it but to say the word suicide shatters this with depression as a disease treatable diagnosable um disease you shatter that shame and that silence so in a loving way um a little different if it's close family or with somebody at work but you might say something like this is i'm trying to find a happy medium um hey how how are you doing and they say something and and and i would say well you know i i i'm

wondering if something's wrong or maybe you're not feeling good i've noticed that you haven't gone out to lunch with people at work or i've noticed you haven't shot baskets in the driveway way when I've noticed this and I'm wondering you know if our brain our heads could have diseases too and I'm wondering you I'm wondering if you're not feeling as good as you can be feeling you know maybe maybe you are depressed and that's such a treatable disease that people are understanding and you don't have to feel like this but but but in there i would have paused to to say are you feeling better you know you i want them to say some things you got to build some kind of a case but and then you say and i know and it might be i know from this person or it might be

i listened to a podcast that greg was doing and i know early to 10 i've never heard anyone say this till the last couple of days i'm thinking about this you know early um intervention matters too i want to help you and there are lots of ways we can do that let me talk with you about it and so you look at um counselor you look at your md you look at but you make you you assess you're going to make sure there are no guns in the house i had a patient within the last couple of weeks who said, when I was more depressed, if there was a gun in the house, also I was drinking alcohol, you're 75% at greater risk drinking alcohol and depressed, I would have shot myself. I absolutely would have. So you make sure about firearms. You make sure the family knows. And non-threatening,

not controlling but taking them step by step and you don't leave them until you solicit with family you talk with them you may go to the er at the hospital you may look up in their community service board um you know somebody who's a counselor but you and you say the word suicide i don't know if i said the word suicide so which i want to say another sentence in my little dialogue there um you may you you know i know you're not and he said some things you're not feeling so good and you may even you know you may even have thought of suicide and i'm quiet and they don't say anything and i probably say happy but and i care about you and i know you can feel better i know because i know you and i care about you so say the word suicide

sorry if i looked it up oh no not at all not at all um do you like the sound of that yes yeah i mean um it sounds like um a strategy that even a person that's not a social worker might be able to um employ if they're worried about a person so um i want to thank you for that advice um i really do If a suicide does happen, though, I know that a survivor might be feeling anger, guilt, or, you know, like maybe if I would have done this or like that. So how can a person support a survivor, an everyday person? You've already talked about your support group and you've read all of the wonderful testimonies. But how can a family friend or another relative support that person or that family? I'm thinking of a woman, Greg, who lost her son.

And the group collectively will say, as they know each other, really, there is a fellowship with them. And it's different people every time. I've never had the same people twice. but her saying I never thought my pain could be greater and knowing my son took his life by suicide

then she said but then there were the whispers so you want to, depends again on how close, you can always ask someone, you know I'm thinking about you and whatever

way of communication um can i can i talk about how you you're doing or i i i'm so i remember you know he and you say something you say their name and and i'm so sorry that happened and you're inviting them because there's a stigma and and it's like that woman then there are the whispers and one thing i appreciate about the group nobody i think said this um in their go go around but you think you're um you think you're a bad mother or parent or not a good friend and you you were right on the mark greg when you said um do they wonder what if with suicide and often when i do bereavement counseling that my whole practice is not just um suicide i think i would melt that would be too hard um but

just for you to be able to talk about talk and and i remember you know with your son or he was so good at this or just to be able to to verbalize that and you're right guilt anger what you were right on the mark about was so i often will divide it into the loss the grieving loss pain part and and that it was suicide and you're right the questions that our life is terrible horrific cruel riddle why how could you how could you do this to your family how could you leave me with these kids how could you remember you're not thinking straight and then the last one what if what if i had called my brother before that what if we didn't have that argument and it wasn't the argument it was just one thing on top of another so you um

you talk to them you ask them how they are you um and then there will be that wave of immediate help and then people kind of trickle off kind of forget you some so um and and i i hear too for people who don't know somebody real well sending a card you know i i met your son one time he was so polite or i'm you know i know there's a different a different lonely you might have um just give me a call yes so i'm going to uh show you like something um i actually have um a church um member and um her son was um a professor and um he like died by um a suicide so um she actually gave away his like ties he he had um a wonderful collection so on um a mother's day when um i go to church and this is it it's a tie um i try to like wear it and she really gets a joy from like

knowing that we um are remembering him and that we're also having um a commemoration of him by like having um a tie on that um he wore i mean it was her um only child um she is in um a second so yeah she might think am i still a mom yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly so i mean it i mean it really puts a smile on her face. I mean, at first I felt like weird about doing it, but she really appreciates it. So it's just like the little things to do a remembrance. He was also a bass like player. It's like a bass violin, which is a big one. So they actually dedicated that to our church. And so when we are playing, it's often an instrument that we are using in our worship. So it's another way to also commemorate him in some way. So I hear you, what you're saying.

Right. But also it's within the context of faith in each other, faith community, and she had control over that whereas i hear also people are afraid is it too soon to give away what do i give away do all of that if you're not sure don't do it but she made this a memorial for her son her only child and she trusted and must have felt comfort within the faith you know that you share and also i know people who gave things away to goodwill and they see what could it could be a tie they see something and that breaks their heart or they see the truck so that your your church member really knew the spirit of your community and and that was a lovely yeah you know a lovely thing to to to do i don't know how recent it is but i think that one

will continue to feel very memorable and and the butterflies you know oh yeah i like that you you got did you get to pick or did she i actually got i actually got the pick so you know like had um she had um a rack they um had um a memorial service they actually had um a meal and so um all of his like ties were like out and um at the like and she's like you know he was um a proud owner of like hundreds of them i just want you want all of us to like share that so i picked out one so i i think i think you got it i think you got a beauty oh yeah yeah i want May I tell you also a new resource that, you know, there's been the 1-800-273-TALK, Lifeline Crisis, and now they have 988. Yes.

And so. A lot of social workers are on that 988 line, too. Okay. Well, I hadn't. So in the last two days, I made, well, actually, I asked my husband to make one of the calls. because I'm afraid they're going to trace and see my number and then wonder if I'm doing blanks. But I pretended I was patient

because I wanted to see how they handled it. And it's not as good an actor. You did a good job. But so I am pleased, and I'll tell you a couple of things I'm pleased about. I'm pleased that you can choose. So you get on there and they say, would you like to be channeled to LGBTQ or military? And you can choose it or not.

And I talked with them afterwards. Well, if you're military and you knew that, would you make them? They don't. They have more anonymity. So I like that about them. I said, your outreach is going to touch more people when you do that. And so you've got two channels. I asked them, so what kind of resources are you able to do? and at first she was trying to direct me to oh well i oh two things one is they will call you the other one i don't know if i asked that but they will call you if you say could you call me tomorrow just it would feel feel good and we can all right i can't talk more now would you call me

tomorrow they'll do that i also like i would ask them so how could somebody find out where sos groups are that was a question i asked and that person said go on our website type in um a question we'll get back in 24 hours they didn't or we didn't know how to access it something but this third call which was this morning actually it's a long time ago um i called and said i really need to know what a local resource is and she stopped and she told me that chesapeake um csb i know integrated i know the director of it and she gave me another one which i think was like the united way funded like catholic family charities or something um so i am so far a believer in 988 i like them they were well spoken compassionate great i mean i i'm like really surprised that

you made the calls and you did the research like vetting them so so i mean if i mean if if if like This is an endorsement coming from a social worker who has been in this long before 988 lines. 988 lines must be a good thing. So thank you for that research. I told her, I said, are you employed or are you volunteers? And she says, we have both. And she said, I'm employed. And I said, I feel as if I'm getting my money's worth from you.

You're listening. You're repeating back. You make sure you understand. I think you should tell, actually, I said, if your supervisor is handy, I'll talk with her because I thought I could give some feedback and I want to give positive feedback where it's due, but it would have been, would have had to disconnect or something else. But I'm interested in that. I think it's an improvement. Oh, yeah. I think it will touch more people. Absolutely. So we are talking with Chris Gilchrist, who is the founder of the Hampton Roads Survivors of Suicide Support Group. I want to ask you a final question. You are like, oh, I wanted to ask you, like, one more question. Okay, I'm sorry. I thought you said a fun question.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not final, final. No, no. I mean, this is, so, I mean, you, I mean, we like have to have a smile and a laugh sometimes because this is a, this is a serious topic. But I have to tell you, in our support group, every meeting, those tissues, proverbial tissues in the center are used in Pasadena. Every meeting, we laugh. I want it to be a microcosm of healthy healing. You know, bereavement, it's the balance of the emotional part and going on with life. But we laugh hard. And Golda Meir. I don't know if you're old enough to know Golda Meir.

Oh, yeah. I remember her. The Prime Minister of Israel at one time. Oh, she said, you have to be able to cry tears from your heart to be able to laugh from your belly. What a wise woman. A good saying. Okay. What's your other question?

My final one is you're in an emotional field. You're around, like, folks probably at the darkest, like, times. I was just, like, wondering how do you find solace and self-care throughout all of that? And if you could advise other social workers how, that would be a good thing for us to close with today. Oh, I appreciate that. That's a difficulty sometimes. And I remember when I started with this group at night, I would walk around in our neighborhood and not, and just, just like looking in the house, it's not peeking in, but just seeing a warm light on and I just let my head unwind. so to find your own quiet way for me my faith is important and it really helps me because to have something bigger than i am to believe in as well as people to believe in sometimes i just have to come back to that and so i i think everybody has a some place that some way to be

able to do that because you're right. It'd be easy to get burned out. Chris, we have been working on a day to like sit down and have our conversation for a little while. So I thank you for your patience. I really do. You have been listening to NASW Social Work Talks, a production of the National Association of Social Workers. We encourage you to visit NASW's website for more information about our efforts to enhance the professional growth and development of our members, to create and maintain professional standards, and to advance sound social policies. You can learn more at www.socialworkers.org. Don't forget to subscribe to NASW Social Work Talks wherever you get your

podcasts. Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next episode.