NASW Social Work Talks - EP107: Hip Hop Therapy in the South Bronx

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

JC Hall, MSW, LCSW, is a hip hop therapist and school social worker in the South Bronx, New York. He works at a high school there, where he is the Hip Hop Therapy Studio Program Director. JC says that hip hop saved his life. He talks about his mentor, the late Dr. Edgar H. Tyson, and how he turned his love of hip hop and working with youth into a career that he loves. The U.S. Census Bureau found that 38 percent of South Bronx residents live below the poverty line. The students JC works with in the South Bronx use this genre of music as a form of self-expression. Hip hop helps them to share their stories and provides a sense of belonging and empowerment, helping them navigate through their daily challenges. See the show notes for related resources  

This is Social Work Talks and I'm your host, Aaliyah Wright. Joining us today is J.C. Hall, MSW, LCSW, a hip-hop therapist and school social worker based in the Bronx, New York. He works at a high school there where he is the hip-hop therapy studio program director. For 11 years, J.C., a clinical social worker, has turned his love of working with youth and hip-hop into a career that he adores. He says that hip-hop, with its ability to help heal, saved his life. The students he works with in the South Bronx, where the graduation rate is 54.7 percent but improving, use this genre of music as a form of self-expression, helping them to share their stories, struggles, and triumphs in a way that resonates with their peers. It also provides a

sense of belonging and empowerment, helping them navigate through the challenges they face each day. Welcome, JC. Thank you so much for having me. This is an absolute honor and a privilege. I really appreciate it. Great. So, JC, could you start by telling us a bit about yourself and why you became a social worker?

Yeah, that's a great question. I'm going to give you the long answer, if that's cool. It might go off on some tangents. To be honest, I was very skeptical about becoming a social worker and applying to school. uh basically i got my bachelor's in science and psych and then um after graduating college the best job i could get was delivering pizza uh which i loved you know i could just ride around bump music all day write deliver pizza like it was a great great job but and i was also pursuing my music career as an independent artist like just putting out self-releasing records expecting

and hoping that would pop off um i had you know i was kind of uh i had a love-hate relationship with academia because I felt like it was pulling away from my artistry and time that I would be putting towards creating what I love. And what you even said in the intro, what really helped heal me and engaging with hip hop music, just to double down on that statement, it absolutely saved my life. It came to me at a point in my life where I was at my absolute lowest. And I don't think that that is coincidence. I think I was reaching for any life vest I could grab onto. I mean, I was always in love with the music and immersed in the culture growing up in New York, but never took a crack at participating in it and actually writing and putting my thoughts

out on paper and then rapping on a mic and sharing it with peers until I was about 15. And that was also when I was first diagnosed with major depression and really struggling with drug addiction and alcoholism, kind of hit the ground running at a very young age and was just, uh, yeah, really didn't think I'd see 16. There really was very, very little hope and hip hop helped hold me over for, for a long time. I would say up until, um, until I got into treatment and, you know, substance abuse treatment and also, uh, in therapy, um, initially with therapy, it didn't resonate, uh, until I found the right therapist. My first several years I would go sleep on my shrink's couch. I was just kind of like, Hey, you don't understand a single thing

about me. I don't know what you're talking about. And I could not care less. Uh, I'm here to take a nap. That was really it. Like, I'm going to just sleep off my hangover. I got drunk in school. Let me sleep this off. I'll go home. We'll be good. You know, that was really my only experience. Um, you know, and he would just let me sit there and there was zero exchange. Uh, and so, and then I finally landed in therapy in one of my treatment centers. I was introduced to the therapist. I see to this day, I've been working with this man for what, 17 years? No, 18 years. Yeah, dude helped save my life. Incredible. And it was really about the relationship. And he was a bit of a poet himself. And I think that's why we connected on that artistic level. And he was the first therapist

that didn't see my identification with hip hop culture as part of the problem. Therapists, just because of the cultural disconnect seemed to always just see like hip hop with street criminal activity. So they were like, that's a part of his problem. They didn't see that as a strength. They didn't see how that was helping carry me through, right? That ability to just have some space where I could write down how I felt and then wrap it to my peers and have my peers look at me and say like, yo, that was dope. That was like incredible, especially coming from someone feeling like terminally unique no one could ever understand me i'm like just a garbage human being just really feeling like that and and and acting out in those ways and and doing just

shameful things and um now all of a sudden i got peers around me like congratulating me and even though i'm rapping about those things they're they're finding there was like a hope in it you know so that helped boost me up so going back to your initial question hip-hop saved my life and it's something I'll do to the day I die. I still record music first and foremost for myself. I got into psychology because I kind of wanted to understand the human brain, how it works. And I just kind of was throwing darts in the dark. I was like, I don't know. It's generally interesting. Got my bachelor's in it. You can't really do anything with that. So someone told me about social work and I started looking into social work programs. And I went to Fordham for

undergrad. And I figured, you know what? Fordham's got a pretty solid, I think like top 10 social work graduate program. Let me just apply there. I'm familiar with the campus. Kind of hope they don't accept me. Don't really care if I get in. I'd rather just pursue my music, but let me get my parents off my back and make it look like I'm making moves, you know? And they accepted me and I was like, oh, no, you know, I was just like, oh, man, now I got to actually like go or not, you know. And then someone I had overheard this summer going into that year, 2010, I overheard someone say about music therapy, and I'd never heard of that. It was a revolutionary idea to me. And I was like, wow, like, let me look into this. I start really, you know, diving into,

you know, searching, I find a program at NYU, I find all these different programs. I'm like, okay forget social work let me jump into that um and i i uh i i was about to apply to these programs but i'm reading through the eligibility requirements and you have to know how to sing and play three instruments right so as a hip-hop artist personally i don't know how to play any instruments i can't read sheet music i i can make beats and rap but that wasn't within their definition of what music making was in order to get i don't know if that's changed much but um so it clearly wasn't the the those programs weren't built with hip-hop in mind you know so now i'm like stuck right i'm like oh man like i want to social work sounded great because i wanted

to really be in the trenches more so than my my vision of therapists a lot of the times in psychology stereotypical as it is right was like people in like ivory tower lay on a couch very disconnected from the communities that they're working in so i thought social work was a lot more in the trenches and wanted to but so i you know i was like i was bummed i was like man so music therapy is not for me so in the in the google search bar you know i cut out music randomly get this idea like let me put in hip-hop and see if hip-hop therapy pops up random really didn't think anything would come of it all of a sudden there's a whole list of pages when i press enter in the google search so i'm like gotta love google right shout out to you

Google. I keep seeing this guy's name because I'm looking for any sign of legitimacy. I'm like, all right, it's a term that's coined or whatever, but this can't be legit. What is this? So I'm looking through and now I'm finding scholarly peer-reviewed journal articles. And I keep seeing this guy's name, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Tyson. So I'm like, who is this dude? And I go to look for his contact in one of his papers. And it turns out he's the professor at that one school that I had just applied for to, for my graduate program back at Fordham. So it was just like, wow. It was one of those like serendipitous moments where everything in my life, like those puzzle pieces randomly kind of fit together at a time where I was like, just existentially at a very low point

of like, what am I doing with myself? So I reach out to him. I sent him like a novel of an email saying, man, I've read everything you've ever written. I'm like, I would love to just pick your brain shadow you anything man like anything you need a research assistant you need someone to like anything i'll get you coffee you name it you know just totally and uh he hit me back the most humble dude i've ever met was just like yo man let's meet up let's link you know no no biggie i appreciate you know he's like i i respect what you're saying hip-hop has always done to you i gave him a whole personal story way too much information and he uh you know he's like i i relay with that. That's like part of why I've created this, you know? So we meet behind the

school. He pulled up in a Yankee fitted cap and he had a cross on a silver chain on and off rip in his, in his suit and he's like professor in a suit and I was off rip. I was like, oh, I'm going to vibe with this guy. And we just clicked, you know, we just clicked. And he was my professor for several years, mentor, colleague. We started doing presentations together. We were working on a book together, uh, up until he passed, um, suddenly in 2018, uh, rest in peace. And, um, thank you. I appreciate that. I think it's, uh, for me, it's like, I I'm sorry personally, but it's also like, I'm, I'm, I'm like more sorry for the world, you know? Cause he was just such a brilliant dude. And there's so much he was working on that he had in the tuck, like chapters

on chapters that just never surfaced after he passed, you know? Um, and I mean, he, he coined the term first originated the approach hip hop therapy in the mid nineties, working in Miami Dade County, like, and the dude was brilliant. He was a researcher, a statistician and a brilliant clinician, really solid all around, like had everything, you know what I mean? Had every facet of that. Um, you know, so it's, it was a loss personally, but also to the field, to the world you know and i've ever since i've really just been trying to push the word forward help like um like by creating hip-hop therapy.com it was really just to like this is the guy who founded it this is what it is um you know you can kind of all his work is linked there everything he's ever

published uh because that's that's the dude right there you know that's incredible jc um now let's dive deeper into the connection between hip-hop and therapy. How does hip-hop therapy specifically benefit high school students? I want you to walk our listeners through how exactly you practice this. Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. Another great question. I think, you know, I would say hip-hop therapy really could be effective anywhere. I think I happen to be in a high school because that's where my second like clinical internship was at. And I was able to just build this program, professional studio from the bottom up. And I stayed there going into year 11 right now. How it impacted, I mean, I would say the majority of, I mean, first and foremost,

I would say the recognition and validation of hip hop culture and healing spaces is one of the biggest things. Just from my experience as a client, as someone receiving services, having never been in a space where that was seen as a strength, right? Like my identification with the culture, my love for the music, it was just never seen as a strength. If anything, it was seen as a weakness, as part of whatever condition they thought I was dealing with. Yeah. I mean, I would say first and foremost, it's like you see these kids that come from this very institutionalized setting. It's within a high school. It's a second chance high school. It's kids who have like have not been served by their traditional public schools have slipped through

the cracks so they're two or more years behind they could be 18 years old with like freshman credits and they have up until 21 to graduate so that it's in these buildings you know these schools in the in the south bronx they look they look like prisons like barred windows they they enter the space and they walk in and it's like covered with with artwork of all their favorite artists it's got all the latest like professional sound recording equipment turntables um the soundproof booth professional microphone uh beat pads and it's off rip you can just see the look on their faces it's almost like the defenses drop you know what i mean it like melts away like almost like when the burden's you know relieved and you kind of just see drop

your shoulders and so you see it immediately that's just off rip right so it's really i think the biggest thing initially at least getting the foot in the door is creating a space where healing can really occur and genuine exchange can occur and rapport building it's like that hierarchy is kind of is broken down it's not like they're coming to me as if i'm the expert and they're there to just listen and be told how to behave and it's like we're meeting there under that mutual common ground of we love hip-hop and if you want to create it i can help you do that you know i'm not there to tell you what's good hip-hop bad hip-hop that's you want to create something let's do that you know in the same in the same way you would and you know you have certain goals in

treatment that you might go into. I want to work on this particular relationship. I want to work on this particular mood or address this particular symptom. You can approach it in the same kind of way. It's just changing the environment into a much more culturally responsive and sustaining environment, which in practice, right, it has greatly increased graduation rates. It's making the kids much more excited about coming to school, which is, you know, a huge plus and part of what I have to show to continue the program. But for me, it's much bigger than school. It's much more about self-actualization. It's a lot more about them finding joy and spaces to play. You know what I mean? And they might not necessarily want to go become professional artists, even though

they can. And many of them are extremely talented. And even if they go end up going into audio trade school, they have some basics, how to work pro tools. So now they can get jobs. Engineers can make good money recording others. Um, so there are tangible things that are really important, uh, but also kind of that more social and emotional, it's a space where they can connect with others. And a lot of times, you know, they're from differing neighborhoods, they're from beefing blocks, different gangs. And it's like, they get to come in this space where that's not, we're here under the common flag of hip hop and, and like kids who normally had, they seen each other on the streets. It'd be a very different interaction than when they're seeing

each other in the, in the, in the studio. And it's very humanizing in that sense. Like you're listening to your, your classmate make music and you're kind of like, oh, wow. Like I relate with that. I feel that emotion. I know what that's like to struggle with my mom. I know what that's like to not have any, you know, not to have any resources and to go hungry for nights, you know, and then all of a sudden they start talking and building these bonds. And it's like a whole group of kids who normally would never really necessarily click just like hip hop in general, right i'm a white kid from the suburbs right like it might not necessarily it hip-hop the the one of the most powerful things of it is transcends a lot of these racial ethnic uh socioeconomic

barriers that have traditionally divided us you know as a way of kind of cutting through and speaking to the human spirit so in the same way these kids and in a microcosm of that right of what's going on globally um happening in that studio and the healing that can occur with that Right. And then as a therapist coming in and intentionally trying to work and address certain traumas, whether in an individual setting or a group setting. And, you know, a lot of it trying to just process, you know, for example, incarceration, all forms of injustices, whether it's, you know, maybe things that they've, you know, crimes that they've potentially committed or that the justice system itself has committed upon them. You know, so really just trying to work through a lot of what they've been through. It's, you know, South Bronx is still the poorest congressional district in the country. 49% of kids are living below the federal poverty line. You know, so kids are just, and recently post COVID, especially just wild, wild gang violence, community violence through the roof. um so a lot that the kids are witnessing and being exposed to and losing people really close to them and having some kind of space where they can come together and process all of that and start working

through some of that um but also find joy right because it's not all about like just focusing on the sad it's like they come in and they light up it's like they find they're not just working through the negative they're finding something positive to strive for something that gets them out of bed, like, oh, I can't wait to record today. I can't wait to go to drop this song later, you know, to give them purpose. Cause a lot of, um, therapy is not always, you know, it's, it's stereotypically seen as focusing on the negatives and it's, it's not about building capacities. You know what I mean? It's more about addressing, uh, traumas that have happened to us or negative things, but it's also about like fostering joy and happiness and, and purpose

and finding some sort of mission in life. So trying to create space for that. And that's really all through the social work lens, right? I think arguably what social work is bringing to the table of mental health professions, right, is like that person and environment perspective. It's understanding that people, our sanity is often outsourced, right?

Like we can only be as mentally well as the environments we live within. And when we come from very sick environments, um it's like almost impossible not to become sick right so it's it's like trying to um you know what are we doing to work with individuals not just to bolster them as individuals but to empower communities to to confront systems um and that's what hip-hop was born out of it was born out of like confronting oppressive and racist systems and policies and hip-hop therapy is arguably doing the same thing within a medium that has traditionally

been a very Eurocentric, upper-middle-class modality. NASW Press is the leading scholarly press in the social sciences. Our publications reach faculty, practitioners, agencies, and researchers in social work and related disciplines. Visit naswpress.org for scholarly books, reference works, brochures, and periodicals. now this year marks the 50th anniversary of hip-hop now before i continue with my questions i would be um i would be remiss if i did not ask favorite hip-hop artists oh that's solid that's a that's a you got me there man top oh man can i give you like a top oh man even top five is tough

Pac. How about top three? Top three. That's good. I got to say, I got to say Pac big and M. Yeah. Yeah. Pac is my number one though. He's, Pac will always be my number one. Something about that's too Pac for those who don't know. Yes. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. But currently, you know, you got Kendrick J Cole. You got some, there's some. Yeah. I was going to go with old school and contemporary, but I think, I think we went there. Yeah, when when when did you first encounter hip hop? When I was in ever since early elementary school, but I'd say the first time that I that it really stands out was the

Fuji's it was Lauryn Hill was the first I was always really fascinated with the English language and writing poetry and classes and stuff. And Lauryn was the first one I heard where I was like, I was just my mind was blown with what she was able to do the way she was able to wield words and just in and out the beat and the poetics behind it were so dense that I was just like, this is brilliant. This is like poetry on steroids, you know? Um, and I feel, I was drawn to it at that young age, you know, and then I like, and then Big Pun came in. Um, but no, yeah, I would say Lauryn Hill was the first

MC I really heard that was like, oh, this is, this is like, this is it. This is the music right here. right um so can you tell us how this genre has evolved and impacted the lives of the students you work with and where you see the future of hip-hop therapy heading or where you'd like for it to head hip-hop therapy that's a good hmm all right so how it's evolved I mean I I think is like uh and what's been so beautiful about this 50th anniversary is like seeing it on these these mainstream stages um these news outlets covering it all these articles coming out it's beautiful to see it get some shine and recognition for what it is it's kind of like the undergirding structure that holds a lot of popular culture it's it has its arms in everything it's influenced everything

from fashion the way we talk the way we act the way we move and it's not just the music right it's a culture it's it's a um whether it's the dance the dress um so to kind of like see it get some of its roses this year uh was was a really beautiful thing because i feel like it has not always gotten its roses and uh i think it's it's such it's it's a bedrock of a lot of uh a lot of the way i i was the way i came up and um a lot of others people that you know people have been born in the hip-hop generation right that that phrase was coined for a reason it's just so intertwined into how into our modes of being culturally um so i think that's i think you know it's it represents like redemption and um resilience of those living on the margins right like if you really think

about the communities it was birthed from which which i'm blessed to be able to work in that the kids that i work with are from these areas um you know how it's just transcended and i was a global multi-billion dollar phenomenon. The breaking is about to be in the Olympics 2024. It's a beautiful thing. And even though it's become very mainstream and it catches a lot of flack for that, it's still used as a force for good behind the scenes and for sociopolitical resistance, whether it's in the green movements or fighting for racial justice. And it's still like that's a part of its DNA. You know what I mean? I don't think, I don't think that can get whitewashed out of it by corporations as much as, you know, there's that fear, right? That that's, and it's happening in

certain instances, but the culture in its pure form, I think is, it just, it's, it's much stronger than that. And so when you, when you think about the future of hip hop and therapy, do you envision um uh practices like yours across the country where you have students who are actually creating music and using that um as a form of therapy and being able to be in a studio and see and seeing how a studio works and being a part of something yeah yeah i would say has this something is this something that's being replicated right now or do you see that in the future of it being replicated in other places i would i see this being replicated across the world right wherever an identification with hip-hop culture exists which is everywhere right seoul japan guatemala

um my good friend uh dr elliot gan he's got therapy a therapeutic beat making model he travels the world he's in australia right now he was in you know costa rica it's like going and implementing this hip-hop is like taking root everywhere um and so i think therefore hip-hop therapy would be useful everywhere and not, you know, not just schools, but prisons, community centers, wherever there's a therapist, like ideally in a dream world, the same way you could look up right now, like, oh, let me go on this website and look up a cognitive behavioral therapist. You could go up and say, okay, I live in Austin, Texas, and I want to look up five hip hop therapists that I can choose from in my area or however many, you know, like having some sort of getting it to that

point is a long journey. I would say over the past decade, a lot of the work that at least I've been trying to do and others like me have been just trying to help legitimize it and even get it into the public discussion. When I first was in grad school, my first day, I said, I want to be a hip hop therapist. And they laughed at me. They thought it was a joke. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's still, you know, we're still fighting for recognition and validation. But I it's gotten to a point now where it's like even having a such an opportunity like this to be able to have this conversation or presenting at national conferences and global conferences it's the recognition is there the next step is like the next decade right what needs to be more

about what does it mean to be a hip-hop therapist possible credentialing like how do you you know quality control how you know because right now anybody could just say i'm a hip-hop therapist that you know anybody could and and there's no way to really control for that so that might require creating some sort of organization um some sort of non-profit some sort of governing body um a lot of that is like stuff i think about and i'm talking with others about but it's i love just doing the work so it's a little overwhelming for me because i like really just you know working with the kids and and um you know not necessarily i'm i'm not as well built for the rest of that. But I'm also understanding and aware that that needs to be done if this is

to be accessible everywhere. So what advice would you give to those social workers who may be considering entering clinical practice and using hip hop as a means to help clients? I would say really do your homework first and foremost. You know, it's a culture and if you're not, if you don't identify with it, I mean, if you're embedded in it, right, and you're whether you're a participant in it or not, whether you are MC, whether you're tagging, whether or not you're a participant is going to kind of change how I would give advice for that. If you are within it and embedded within it, I would really just say, trust your gut. I think if you're of hip hop and are hip hop and identify, I think for me, the biggest thing was trusting my gut

because a lot of people would try to sway me different ways and tell me why it's not therapeutic or why not to use it, the potential risks. But then if you're coming in as an outsider, which is okay, it's just do your homework, you know what I mean? Like try to immerse yourself as much as you can and develop an appreciation for and try to understand as much as you can, like any other culture, you know what I mean? Like just because you, you know, might eat a certain food

from this particular country doesn't make you an expert in that. It's the same as like just because you might use hip-hop in your practice, You know, having some sort of cultural humility, I think, is ultimately what it boils down to and being open. But also, like, don't be scared. You know what I mean? Like, if that's what your clients identify with, you'd be remiss not to try to incorporate it in some way. And you can do it in very basic ways. It could be as simple as, hey, show me a song you really like. Let's look at the lyrics together. Let's discuss. What are you identifying with? What's your favorite line? Help me understand. I don't, like even now, right, I grew up on hip hop music. A lot of music comes out now that I don't even know what they're saying. Sometimes it's mumbled and I can't make it out. So I'll sit with the kid and say like, show me, walk me through this. What is it about this that you like and, you know, I'm not judging them or saying like, oh, that's not real hip hop. I'm just trying to understand. It's a tool for conversation and rapport building and showing you respect what

they like. Because when you shut the door on that, especially when someone personally identifies with it deeply, it's like saying no to that person. It's like saying not just, I don't like the music you love. It's like, I don't like you. That's how it can come across. Um, so yeah, I, you know, trust your gut, be humble and, um, and push for it. Cause it's not always going to be accepted in a lot of spaces. Now we spoke before about like some documentaries, um, and some other things that you wanted to share um as we as we wind down with your final thoughts can we talk about that a little bit yeah i mean i would definitely love to encourage people to check out mothaven m-o-t-t haven uh it's a short documentary award-winning uh that came out

it was shot in like 2014 2015 and it came out it's it's all available on vimeo on youtube but it really just documents the origins of the hip-hop therapy program that i run and you get to really see it from the eyes of the youth you kind of get to see their growth journeys through it uh it's very it's heavy stuff so you know forewarning um but it's so beautiful like just like the kid and two of the kids right e from and biggie uh we just put out this like this uh newer short film slash experimental music video out of them like almost you know a decade later and how they're they're talking a lot about how they're still using hip-hop for healing and how it's help them through, um, some serious traumas and tragedies in their lives and, uh, and the strengths

that they find within it. Um, so I would say to check those out side by side, you know, if you have the time, Mott Haven being the first, you get to really see the program in action. And then, um, which is like, uh, is like, uh, it's like the perfect qualitative study in my mind. And then this, the Byways is the second film that's on Vimeo. Um, that's almost like a longitudinal follow-up where you get to see like how these kids are still using hip-hop uh for that purpose years years later right because that's ultimately the goal of the is to like help um one develop a therapeutic relationship with the culture that they they identify with and help provide those resources for self-empowerment and we also talked about the website yeah hip-hop therapy.com and

that's where people can find you, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I just, it's a centralized resource for all free information. And so listeners, we're going to have that in our show notes. But I just want to get, again, ask you if there's any final thoughts from you about hip hop and therapy? Man, I just really want to thank you for this opportunity. Anyone who's even listened this far. I appreciate it. You know, I know how I've seen it impact the lives of the individuals I've been blessed to work with and how much I would have benefited from something like this when I was coming up. I really just want to encourage you to give it a second look, especially if it's something that at first glance seems counterintuitive. Just give it a

shot. You know, there's a lot of people out here who would benefit from this. A lot of people identify with hip hop and love hip hop. And yeah, just thank you. Thank you, JC. And thank you listeners for tuning into this episode of Social Work Talks. We hope you've enjoyed our conversation with JC Hall about the transformative power of hip hop therapy. You can learn more about the things we've discussed in the show notes on our website, where you'll also find links to hiphoptherapy.com as well as individual links to the documentaries we've discussed and to the upcoming conference the global and that is the global exchange conference and also psychotherapy network or 2023 conference thank you so much for listening you have been listening to NASW

social work talks a production of the national association of social workers we encourage you to visit NASW's website for more information about our efforts to enhance the professional growth and development of our members to create and maintain professional standards and to advance sound social policies. You can learn more at www.socialworkers.org. And don't forget to subscribe to NASW Social Work Talks wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next episode. Thank you.