NASW Social Work Talks - EP89: Learning To Take Risks

Episode Date: August 1, 2022

We speak with NASW member Kristen Lee, Ed.D., LICSW, about overcoming fear and learning to take risks. Visit the show notes page for related episodes and resources.

This episode is brought to you by One Circle Foundation. Welcome to Social Work Talks. My name is Greg Wright, and I'm here with Dr. Kristen Lee, who is an author, a social worker, and an educator. We actually had Dr. Chris on about four years back on a show about self-care, and it was one of our most downloaded ever. We have her back to talk about being brave and building resiliency. Welcome, Dr. Chris. How are you? Thank you, Greg.

It's a delight to be back. I'm well, thank you. How are you faring? I'm fine. It's a little warm here, but how is it up there in the Boston area for you? Likewise, it turned, I think, back to around the 80s, and it felt crisp and refreshing yesterday in contrast. So it's good. And it's a great time of year for us to be out and about for sure. You actually have a new book out. And I was wondering if you could tell us

the title and what it's all about. Indeed. So the name of the book is Worth the Risk, How to Microdose Bravery to Grow Resilience, Connect More, and Offer Yourself to the world. And this dropped on June 14th. As I say, it hatched because as you know, there's a little empty nest on the cover of the book. It's just been such a delight to partner with Sounds True at this moment in time where there's so much enormity. There's a lot of suffering. There's a lot of fear and anxiety and not knowing what's coming around the corner. And this book really offers a lot of evidence-based science, and then a lot of the skills and ethos of our social work profession. So that's something I hold very dear in all my writing is not just looking at ways we

can change personally, but what we can do on a systems level to forge ahead with social change. Are you finding now that folks are less averse to taking a risk? Are folks a lot more cautious now? Well, I think it starts with reimagining our definition of risk, because I think a lot of people imagine it to be betting it all off the Bellagio or jumping out of a plane or just, you know, taking agency over our lives in one fell swoop. And so I think that it's misguided our ideas about what it is. And so in the book, I really debunk a lot of those myths and help us think about risks that actually align with our value set and risks that can nourish us. And I think, again, that's not necessarily how we initially imagined it to be. So for example, I think a lot of us are just obviously dealing with everything that has

transpired, all the trauma of the pandemic and the enormity of that. And it can become very paralytic. I think risks now are even just being willing to reenter into life as it is now and coming back into the world, whatever that might mean for all of our own unique variables, finding our way. So I think risks is a very broad spectrum for all of us. What feels comfortable to one might feel very uncomfortable to another. And so I think it starts for all of us understanding what risks are worth taking. Let's say, for example, you hold a value for social change and social justice and impact and you're heartbroken at the level of trauma and the isms in the world. And you want to, you know, take a stand. An example of microdosing bravery or asserting yourself towards risk might be, you know, beginning to stand up and use your voice for change and impact or, you know, not being a passive bystander.

For example, if you see something happening, you find the skills and the courage to say, you know, this isn't okay. And what if we looked at it in a different way? And so I think there's a lot at hand that can make us feel a lot of trepidation or wary about what we can do. I think that's the burning question within our discipline and beyond. If you're a person in the world who's listening right now and you see the devastation at hand, you want to help. And sometimes it can be very hard to know what to do and whether or not that will make an impact. And I think that's really the premise of the book is that the small things we do can have a cumulative effect towards positive change, whether, again, that's on the individual level or on the macro level. It doesn't have to be, you know, this massive redo. When I look at our politics now, there's just a sense of futility because it seems like our political parties are at an impasse. impasse. Our society is very divided now over a lot of different issues of reproductive rights, on voting, etc. So how can a person not be overwhelmed by a feeling like, what can I do about a system that just looks like it's just not working? I think it's a burning question of our

moment. It's very fraught right now. And there's so much at hand to try to decipher. And then to your point, there's a lack of proper discourse. There's a lack of listening and empathizing. Cancel culture, to me, I think can reveal that we're trying to hold a level of accountability, particularly for dominant groups, groups that have oppressed and marginalized, discriminated and violated, particularly for BIPOC communities and LGBTQ. So I think that accountability is essential. I really want to emphasize that. I think what's also important is if we look at the science of behavior change, for example, we know that shaming and blaming and kind of what's happening, particularly like within social media feeds, it's not necessarily productive. So for me

as a scientist and as a social worker, I always am interested in what will actually help foster more effective dialogue, what will build empathy and camaraderie and connection and candor. And that doesn't mean that we don't hold a level of accountability, but it means that we're willing to look at potential space for common ground. I think like if we look at many of the issues of today, I don't think anyone wants to see more gun violence, for example. I don't think anybody on any side of the spectrum wants to see unwanted pregnancies, for example. And I think for me, I think what grieves me a lot is, and especially, you know, as a human resilience researcher, I'm part of a really phenomenal intellectual community where I teach. I'm part of a very

dynamic cadre of social work within the social work profession. And I see that in many of these instances like let's say you know defunding the police and that becomes like a very no pun intended triggering thing and it sets off like a whole bunch of rage but we also see like these amazing examples of including more social workers for example and de-escalating the mental health situations at hand and we see a lot of solutions to problems that don't necessarily get the air time within the news cycle or within our social media feeds you know we're dealing with algorithms and the feeds feeding us things that antagonize us and then we antagonize one another but if we really looked at it through like a more data-driven lens a more research-driven lens a deeper

understanding of what could help improve the human condition that could go a long way but i think ultimately we have a lot to work against because there's a lot of interest in mind that can make money off fighting and off the polarization and yet we're ignoring all the strengths that we have in terms of, you know, even modern brain science. You know, I'm super nerdy and obsessed about it because there's so much that works and that we can understand about the workings of the human mind and how we can redirect it

to a better place and what fosters change. And none of that is getting the airtime that it really deserves. And we need that in the world to move to a better place, obviously. How does being brave make you a more resilient person? Well, if we take those risks that we need to take in order to facilitate our own change process, and to hopefully have a positive influence in

the world, then we have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, we can't stay stagnant or stay in the same place or go with the status quo, we have to think creatively, perhaps, you know, we might think of it as in a non conventional way. But bravery is about, you know, facing what I call in the book what is and not lamenting over what if so for example you know embracing a what is mindset is recognizing we are living and we are marinating in a lot of anxiety fear and trauma and all at the same time there are opportunities to leverage there are possibilities there are strengths that we all have and there are strengths within the world that we can leverage And so focusing on what we talk about is adopting a focus on a locus of control, appreciating what we can do. And I think that is an act of bravery is coming to terms with even the difficulties, embracing not only the positive in our lives, but also facing the difficulties.

It could be just within ourselves, like even having a laugh over our own follies and our own quirks and issues. And then, you know, looking more expansively to say, what does this all mean? And, you know, how do we move forward productively? I think if we live in a what if space, it can rent a lot of space in our head. We can fall trap to rumination, for example. You know, what if the pandemic hadn't happened or what if this person wasn't elected into office? And, you know, what if my sister hadn't ghosted me? Or what if my parent hadn't died? Or what if I didn't have this health issue or this mental health issue or all the above and more? And that

doesn't necessarily get us to a better place. So I think bravery is about accepting what is and then also figuring out what we can do within our locus of control, like where we can foster change in our lives. One Circle Foundation makes it easy for service providers to facilitate evidence-based gender-responsive support groups for youth, teens, and adults. Choose from curricula themes such as healthy relationships, intersectionality and allyship, mother-daughter bonds, pride for LGBTQ plus youth, and more. Attend a One Circle Foundation facilitator training and receive continuing education credits from NASW. Social Work Talks podcast listeners get 15% off your curricula order by visiting OneCircleFoundation.org slash Social Work Talks.

I think that a lot of that, it also comes on a personal front with a level of maturity. I find as I'm like aging that I don't try to control everything. I'm not up all night worrying about things like you really learn things do work out. I love how you frame it, Greg. I think it's really good wisdom. And I think it is part of human maturation. Whatever stage of life we're at, we can continually just recognize that there will be a tremendous amount that we can't change immediately. And I think I'm always like an avoider of like trite slogans. But I think that the saying trust the process is one that is meaningful i find meaning in that because it's so easy especially like for me as a person who struggles with like unhealthy overachievement

or perfectionism i also you know that i have a lived experience of anxiety i've been very public about that and it's easy like in our wild imagination to conjure up like solutions constant solutions or just even like if you're a conscious person and you tune into what's happening in the the world, it's so easy to be heartbroken and just to live in that like place of strife. I think to your point, recognizing that if we allow ourselves to be eroded by those conditions, we'll become less effective in living a life of purpose, impact, meaning, joy, you know, or really inhibit us if we stay in that mode of just constantly being wary or to your point, trying to control things that may take time. And I think that's another important element in our

culture of expedience, you know, at a time where we just want results so quickly. You know, I wrote an article called therapy isn't Grubhub, for example, you know, it doesn't come in 15 minutes, like, and, you know, I think that's just important that we have to realize that trauma recovery, if we look at ourselves through this trauma informed lens, which is so essential right now, we realize that we are going to be vacillating in and out of very dark emotions we're going to be grieving what was so when i say like a doctor what is life i don't mean like it happens in pop psychology three easy steps but just recognizing that it takes time to come to terms with these things but that if we look to the research and we look to what we know about the brain

In brain plasticity, for example, we are wired to heal and to overcome and to maneuver and to adapt. And I think that's a message we all need to really sit with and take in and recognize. Because I think sometimes we feel like we're not resilient, we feel worked up, we feel overstimulated, overwhelmed, and unhopeful. And yet we are wired for that resilience. And again, bravery is a process. Building resilience is a process. And the more we can chip away at that strategically and thoughtfully, the more we can find ourselves better positioned to face what is. so do you think that um everyone um should try out um a new hobby or um experience um another type of like food at um a restaurant like how can a person get out of like a box and um a habit and actually take a risk and try something new i think what can be potentially motivating is knowing that the brain really does crave novelty and variety and that you know for any of us if we did that self-inventory and thought about, oh, there's something I was like biting my nails to try.

And then I tried it and I loved it. Or I was afraid like at work to say I was struggling. And then when I did, it invited greater candor and camaraderie. You know, so I, or I was afraid to like ride a horse and then it was the most fun thing ever. Or I always wanted to try stand-up comedy and then I did and I loved it, right? So I think we have to just look back

and chronicle through our lives the times where maybe we were hesitant or reluctant, and then what that payoff was. And yes, to your point, I think right now, creativity, you know, identifying activities that help us to toggle out of the intensive stress that we're all facing, you know, creating those reprieve moments through things that maybe we don't even know, you know, would serve in that way. So I think we do have to be willing to try new experiences. And I think what i've learned as a person who has had the privilege of serving people with anxiety and then also as someone who's experienced it is that

exposing ourselves this is evidence-based treatment exposing ourselves to the things that make us uncomfortable very strategically in an integrated way like which just means very slowly you know like kind of like microdosing like take a little bit in feel uncomfortable feel a little bit of that like feeling in your stomach and then stepping back and saying oh okay i'm still here i didn't what i was worried about didn't happen and now i'm ready to like take that next step and build greater traction and momentum and that really is based on you know the gold standard for anxiety intervention which is exposure treatment exposure therapy and that and that's very much a bedrock principle of worth the risk is that we don't have to just confront it like

let's say, for example, you're in a relationship, and there's something difficult happening, and you want to have a conversation, use a chip away approach, use the microdose approach, don't feel like you have to sit down and like, just air all the grievances all at once. Maybe you just say, it would mean a lot to me if you understand this about me, or I need this right now. And I'm asking for your empathy, I'm asking for your ear. So I think just for any of us getting comfortable in these ways, does have a big payoff over time. Again, it's not going to happen in one hot second, but it can happen over time. And then that, you know, we'll have that effect of building our resilience in the long run. Dr. Chris, I think another factor in our society

and it's evident on our social media is this idea of perfection. Like everybody who's out there, like doing things they're um an expert why should um i try out anything that's like new if i'm gonna look like a fool at it like everybody like wants to look like um an expert they don't want to appear at all to be vulnerable and so are you also like thinking that that keeps a lot of folks from actually taking risks. Indeed. And, you know, a study was done over the last 10 years around perfectionism, and they said that it went up by 33% with social comparison as the driving force. We also know as a sub point that social anxiety is the fastest growing anxiety spectrum disorder. So to me, we're looking at curated versions of each other online, portraying a

certain vibe or feeling. And we think that we have to portray these perfectionistic images to each other. It's a very hyper-competitive global market as well. And the definition of success is being so narrowly defined. The metrics have really become harmful to our wellbeing. We're seeing that all over the data. So I think that I always say it's better to risk looking foolish than to feel bad. And I think that our lives, how sad would it be to say, oh, at the end of someone's life, oh, I had 1,476 followers on LinkedIn, or I had all these likes on my feed. It's such a strange way in which we're all trying to build our self-worth. And what research really shows is that that level of social comparison can become erosive. And I think perfectionism is like the

ultimate disillusion? Like what is even perfect? And, you know, we know like how false these things are on social media. I think we've seen the whistle blown in many ways. There's been some great documentaries, for example. And I think even some great thought leaders who have just said, this isn't like the truth of the situation. So I think we all have to be careful discerners of what we're taking in and what we're believing, you know, using our critical thinking caps, so to speak, to be more discerning. And I think ultimately, it comes back to what I said earlier, which is that when we know our values, when we have clarity over what is important to us, and what we know helps us to flourish as humans, which ultimately for many, you know,

if we look across the research, it's connection, you know, with each other. And if we're just putting up false images of ourselves, false identities, that's not what allows us to connect. And in my research around resilience and identity, the ultimate is being able to, again, own our authentic selves and live in that kind of space. So I think we have to just be very careful. Well, I'm going to take you up on it. So I have a few cousins and they are golfers, like avid golfers and I'm not, um, I have never golfed at all. And they, um, asked me like out and I'm like, I don't want to go out there and look like an idiot on a golf course. But, um, I read, um, you are actually suggesting micro dosing. So there is, um, a top, um, a top golf. Um,

it opened up, um, a few miles away. So I'm going to take some lessons. Um, I'm going to micro dose on this, and then I'm going to take a risk. So, I'm already incorporating a few of the lessons that you're trying to impart. So, yeah. That's a beautiful example. I love that. Yeah, well, I also want to, like, talk about the fact that you are also a comedian as well. I mean, amongst, like, other things, a social worker, a therapist, a researcher, an educator, you're also a comedian. And that must have like taken a level of risk and like bravery to do that. So if you could kind of like talk about how you made that like leap into that world, let us know. Well, a way I could put it to you is, you know, I was the first in my family to attend college. So

you know, I remember just when I got my MSW was such a dream realized. And a way I could put it is I feel like I took my whole life trying to get people to take me seriously. And now I've undone it. But what I will say is I have always valued the arts tremendously. And I've been obsessed with comedy my whole life. And I think for anyone, whether they are in social work or related disciplines, or you're just a person listening, trying to find your way through life, we know that humor is so vital, right?

And I think, you know, we look at resilience research, and it talks about humor as a protective factor. So I've always used it in my life and been obsessed with it. And then over the past few years, I decided that I would do some formal training. So it wasn't like I just showed up on stage one day. So ultimately too, I give talks around the world

on resilience and building healthy mental health cultures. And again, in my teaching work and that consulting work, I always use humor in my talks. I was like, I'm just going to flip the model. I'm just going to go all in with the comedy and then have the positive underlying message and the positive underlying cause. But again, I didn't do it overnight.

I started to like read a lot of books of comedians, a lot of memoirs. You know that I start with the risk talking about Miss Pat, a comedian who, if you want to just hear a story about someone who went through enormous trauma and then comes on stage and tells her traumatic story in such a profound way.

You know, it's just incredible. So I start the book with a homage to her as a, as a black woman, she grew up, you know, in poverty, and the trauma she went through, and the way that she was able to, you know, tell her story so bravely, really inspired me. And, you know, I just started like a bit at a time, like weaving humor into my typical practice, and then getting training. And then in the pandemic, it felt like very absurd to start a comedy show. Right? It's like, that's absurd. But I could see the level of acuity. I could see that even in my own life, that even with all the practices I do around self care and staying doing well, I was still missing something. And that's when I just decided to launch the show. And it benefits

the National Alliance on Mental Illness, a coma project, which focuses on BIPOC mental health access so there's a total method to my madness and i will say i take i take humor seriously it just sounds like a paradox but i think that it's a it's a different way of telling our stories it's a different way of just to be frank to call bs on society's idiocracies like you know just idiosyncrasies like to look at ourselves in a more humane way and and tell those stories and i think obviously comedy can conjure controversy there's all that piece but i think for a lot of us we could really use it uh one again as a source of therapeutic value in our own lives but one that could be a real teaching tool in the world and so i'm completely enthralled by it but yeah it

didn't like i didn't just decide one day i'm just gonna like do this it really came step by step strategically through microdosing microdosing but it's then it's again like if people i thought to you know i've had a lot of people at work turn up to my shows i'm thinking like are they gonna think i'm really weird like and then i'm like who cares i am and i'm also serious right like we can be all these things in our identities you know and i think more people are showing that that it's not like just being this like stiff buttoned up academic or like i'm a social worker and like everything is like so brave and heavy and I think we can almost feel guilt like I do sometimes have to push away that guilt and say you know or like just to feel bad like I don't want people to think

I'm not taking the time seriously I think the point is I am and I'm using this as a tool to maybe illuminate things that need to be illuminated and I think creating that levity can go a long way for all of us like I don't know about you but there were times when I could only receive the news through Trevor Noah. Like I had to watch The Daily Show, right? Because it is a lot for us to take in and it can become paralytic. And I don't take lightly how this news cycle can be erosive. It's not that we ignore what's happening, but how do we creatively use our minds in ways that can help us stay and do well? Absolutely. So a final question, how can social workers actually incorporate the lessons in your book into their daily practice and their work with clients?

I focus a lot. There's actually a whole session on you are not your roles. And then there's another one, you are not your accomplishments. But I think for us in human work and those devoted to social change and elevating the human condition, the level of trauma and vicarious trauma at hand is a lot. And I feel like whenever I speak to folks, the burning question is, am I doing enough? And this is a question, to be honest, that I ask myself a lot as well. And it actually breaks my heart. I think the work that we do is sacred. It's so vital in this world. And it feels like no matter what we do, it would never be enough. So I think the microdosing concept is important for any of us in this kind of work to recognize that we also can give

ourselves permission to nourish ourselves. And that's kind of like a nod back to the podcast that was like the most downloaded podcast, the burnout and self-care podcast, right? But it's so hard to give ourselves permission to, again, cultivate awe, gratitude, joy, to have fun. We almost stigmatize leisure. But I think that burnout being such a risk of our occupation begs us to this action of creating that time. And I think a microdose of risk is just saying, I'm worth it too. I need it too. Or to cry uncle and be like, I also need help. A lot of us have trouble asking for help. And I see that as a really important microdose that could be at work with a supervisor, it could be with a trusted colleague or friend or family

member. But I think even us saying these times have become so erosive, we also need more help than we have before and asking for it. I think that could be like the ultimate, you know, step of our own recovery process and our own process of nourishment and continuing to edify and build our own resilience. Thank you. Well, we've had a conversation with Dr. Kristen Lee, author of Worth the Risk. Thank you for being our guest, and I'm sure we're going to have you on in another few years. It's been about four years, so let's not make it that long the next time. Indeed. Likewise, it's been such a pleasure conversing. All my very best. Thank you, Greg. you have been listening to nasw social work talks a production of the national association

of social workers we encourage you to visit nasw's website for more information about our efforts to enhance the professional growth and development of our members to create and maintain professional standards and to advance sound social policies you can learn more at www.socialworkers.org. And don't forget to subscribe to NASW Social Work Talks wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to seeing you next episode.