NASW Social Work Talks - EP97: South Asians in the United States

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

We speak with Shreya Bhandari, PhD, LISW, editor of the NASW Press book "South Asians in the United States: A Guide for Social Workers and Other Helping Professionals." Dr. Bhandari is professor and director of social work, Purdue University Northwest. She is also alicensed clinical social worker with her own private practice. Her research focuses on violence against women, specifically domestic violence. She has worked in the area of domestic violence and mental health for about two decades as a researcher, educator, and practitioner. You can buy a copy of "South Asians in America" on the NASW Press website. You can watch this conversation on YouTube and leave a comment or question there.  

This episode is sponsored by Connect to End COVID-19. From the National Association of Social Workers, this is Social Work Talks, and I'm your host, Elizabeth Lamott. And today I am thrilled to welcome Dr. Shreya Bhandari. She's here to talk about her new book, South Asians in the United States, a guide for social workers and other helping professionals. Here's the book. I'm holding it up for our viewers.

Dr. Bhandari is the director of social work at Purdue University Northwest, and she is a seasoned writer, researcher, professor. She is a licensed independent social worker with a private practice. Her research focus is on violence against women, specifically domestic violence, and she has over 30 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters, and her research has been funded by the National Science Foundation. Dr. Bhandari, welcome to Social Work Talks. Thank you for writing this wonderful book.

can we start out with you telling us about the book and how you came to write it thank you for having me um elizabeth and thank you to nasw press for offering me this opportunity to get this anthology together so um in my work just you know responding to your first question in my work as a social work educator and as a researcher in this field i came to realize that there is very little information or knowledge about the south asian population and south asians when i say that term it means people who belong to the indian subcontinent and who live all over the world this book is specifically on south asians in the u.s so the specific countries are india Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, Sri Lanka. So people don't know much about

this population. Their interaction would have been through a doctor, a physician, or it would have been in a restaurant. And so that was a need to educate the population about you know, who is the South Asian population. So that was one big need. The other thing I started noticing when I started working in the field is that when people go out to seek help, whether it is for mental health or for domestic violence, there was lack of culturally responsive care. And this is not the first time somebody's pointing that out. It has been documented well in the literature and that started make it made me think that we have to create this next generation of social workers we have to educate them uh we have to let the practitioners

know you know what are the needs of this population and you know how can they offer culturally responsive care and so um i my just like you said in the introduction my training has been in the field of domestic violence and i've done you know i also do mental health therapy but there are these other areas that i have not been trained in or you know have not done my research in and so i started basically then um you know gave a call out for other academicians and researchers who are doing this work and see if somebody would like to contribute chapters towards you know talking about older adults south asian older adults talking about south asians in the us who belong to the lgbt community you know um talking about the immigration barriers

that especially women experience uh when they move to this country because of you know how broken our immigration system is and what does that do to somebody who you know would have had a well groomed career back home and that basically led to this huge you know this project and this book that's in front of you today it's a it's a deeply researched thorough book and very early on a term is referenced model minority it's referenced in your chapters and other contributors and it's right in the beginning. So could we talk about that term and go from there? So modern minority is a very, very heavily loaded term. And there's a lot of judgment involved. There was a time when I had thought of list of titling my book with that term, and then I backed

out and here's where why i will tell you that that is a big myth um so on paper you know saudisians uh do well economically education wise socially you know and uh people think that um you know they're the best immigrant group but one needs to look into the history of why that is and how biased that view is and how biased that title is and so that is the piece that you know i have actually explained really well in you know in the first chapter of the book that it's a myth um so if you look back into the immigration uh you know the way the laws were passed in this country um there was a halt in asian or specifically south asian immigration after 1924 for about like 40 years or so. And it resumed in 1965 with the passage of the Immigration and Nationality Act,

right? And the people who came to this country at that time from the Indian subcontinent were usually, you know, doctors or, you know, like engineers or lawyers or those kind of people who were cherry-picked from the country, were coming here to further their education, belonged to the professional community, right? 1965 was also the time if in the United States, we got the Voting Rights Act passed, we got just a year ago, Civil Rights Act was passed, right? So the South Asian community did not have the need, I mean, they did not experience the Jim Crow era segregation, right? They didn't have the need to express solidarity with, you know, the African American community the latinx community or the indigenous community and so uh that was so it's it's a false

comparison to say that hey looks this group is doing so well why can't the others do because you're now trying to compare a group that does you know when i talk about african-americans or the latinx who've been um you know discriminated and oppressed for centuries right Right. And that was not the case. There was there were some experiences of discrimination and violence with South Asians too. And I've listed those. But that was very different from what these communities have experienced. So the first point is you cannot compare the two groups. The second is not not everybody is doing well. Right.

So there are there's a group of people who work as taxi drivers. They are South Asians, too, who work in grocery stores, who work in restaurants. Right. There is a huge group of Bhutanese refugees that the United States has started accepting since 2008. Excuse me. Yes, I was I was struck by how with that group, the statistics in your research looks so different, including the suicide rate. I mean, across the board, they look different. Absolutely. The suicide rates are really high. and you know so those they also belong to the South Asian community but we don't talk about those groups and so you know that is another issue that's a misconception and then when you put the label of model minority you tend to not look at the social problems it's almost like this

community does not have domestic violence or delinquency or you know de-addiction you know addiction problems or disability issues and that's not the case right and so the mainstream thinks that oh this community doesn't have problem the community in itself doesn't want to admit it has problems and so overall it's just it's it's a big myth it's um it's i think worth noting that it is a myth from a term that was coined in the new york times is that in the 30s in the new york times it was it was it actually started with the japanese americans um i think in the 1960s or so um with uh william peterson you know and it's not just used for south asians it's actually used for asians in general uh you know look how well they

do and all of that but uh you have to look at the larger picture of how the immigration system is set up? And what are the kind of people that the immigration system lets, you know, allows to come in this country? Yes, there are people, you know, there are family reunification programs and stuff like that, but you cannot just cherry pick a subset and look at that and then say, hey, you know, you're doing so well. It's inaccurate. And so, Dr. Bhandari, who will benefit most from reading this book so um and the reason i included helping professions was that i did not want this to be limited to social work students and social work practitioners so anybody who is working with salvations so it could be a psychologist it could be a doctor it could be

you know a physical therapist it could be anybody because a lot when when health is sought you know you need to know what is what is the family dynamics behind this so on and so forth and anybody who would like to get a real picture rather than you know the Bollywood the mainstream view that you get when you see those shows which is which is a biased picture you know so So I would say anybody who wants to know more about this community, wants to get a clearer picture about this community, and is in a helping profession, I would recommend this book. I would as well. And in getting this deeper picture and this deeper understanding, as I was studying your research in the book, one thing I was particularly struck by were the percentages around intergenerational, multigenerational households. Can you say more about that for our audience?

so um and that goes back to i would like to talk a little bit about the south asian cultural values so south asians you know and it is actually if you go by the value system it is in complete contrast to the western values right so south asians believe in interdependence and collectivism and cooperation and those kind of things versus you know there is individualism here there's independence here and so a big part of that is caring for the older adults in the family and family doesn't get limited to parents it could also be extended members of the family extended members you know or members of the extended family and also it includes caring for the young children so there is that interdependence that you will see if it's an immigrant family it is perfectly

normal for parents to travel and live with, you know, the young immigrant family for months together to care for the newborn baby. Similarly, you know, if an older adult, you know, is getting old and doesn't have much support back home or, you know, in the home country, you see more and more older adults moving here and, you know, living with their kids. And if it is the second know the third generation um moving in you know nursing homes or independent facilities is still looked down upon and frowned down frowned upon again going back to the values so there is this give and take of labor you know if you will which is common and they may sometimes live in the same household if finance is an issue, or they may live nearby, which is, again, you know, something

that goes back to the values and, you know, what we stand for. Social support is a big piece too, right? And there's more and more research that shows us that, you know, that helps with a lot of healing of mental illness and, you know, helps with the mental health issues and so and so forth. Yes, you're making me think of one of the paragraphs in the book that was particularly powerful to me, which I'll quickly read if that's okay. Sure. This is page 66, which is part of chapter three, which is about domestic violence. And you write, The first step in initiating a working relationship with a client is to establish trust. Meeting the client where the client is involves validating her experience and listening carefully.

It is essential to intertwine what we know about South Asian culture with the client's identity. For example, a client may or may not identify as abused in the beginning, which may involve some level of education, and the best way to establish rapport with a South Asian client is to reassure them that things will fall into place and that the client is not alone in this battle. an approach that stems from the collective culture in which interdependence is valued over independence and individualism right and yeah yeah that that explains it all and that i think is a big reason why a lot of people struggle when they seek care um it also goes to mental health issues because a lot of it is uh people here expect you know South Asians expect advice from the therapist, but the, but the role of the therapist, as you know, I see the smile is to help

you, you know, help you make a decision. And it's like, if I had to make the decision, then why do I come to you? But that's how the brain is trained, you know? So even with the doctors, right, they recommend the treatment, but South Asians expect them to be told. And that it's a very basic thing, but it, it goes a long way. And eventually, you know, you tend to come and understand each other, you know, on what the basis of the treatment should be. But philosophically, you have to focus on why is the client saying that it's because of the values. And as you describe this, I'm reminded of another

term in the book that is referred to in your chapters, as well as from some of the other contributors. And the term is log kai kahenge. Am I saying it correctly? no so it's uh it's log it's look you did try you tried so log and thank you yeah and what that means is what will people say and i have actually in this book been very very deliberate about this but i have not italicized words in hindi or urdu and get them as it is so another word you would see around would be issat which is honor and you know i can bring that up too later but uh a lot of them go together they do and in some of the topics they're discussed together absolutely they do and so is basically what will people say um a western a similar concept

would be shame um and i will take that concept of shame and probably you know explain that maybe it'll resonate more. So shame as a concept is what, you know, of your individual shame, that's what the Westerners understand it. But here, when we get into the concept of it's that the owner, it's more of a family owner, you know, so if, if my child is gay, or if I've had a divorce, or if I haven't, I don't fall into that box of, you know, being a heterosexual family making, you know so much money with kids who are doing well in school and you know having a big house or whatever that definition is of you have made it i am bringing shame not just to myself but i'm dishonoring my entire family you know that i'm a failure and so even though this has been

explained in the chapter on lgbt you know where um expressing your sexual orientation uh what will people say you know if they find out i have a gay son what will people say if they find out you know i have a trans kid at home um it it can be applied to domestic violence it can be applied to mental health it can be applied to you know any and every concept and it goes beyond individual shame it goes to the extent of the family shame like you're literally dishonoring the family. And so, you know, that becomes a barrier to seek help. And how would you connect this concept to domestic violence? So just like, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, if I'm being abused, it's like, I have brought, I did something wrong, blame myself. If only I would have cooked

well if only i would have done a b and c well so it comes down to balls down to self-blame and then i did something wrong and that's why i'm being abused and i'm bringing dishonor to my whole family if i decide to do something about it you know because it's okay to get i mean men always do that men have always been like that you know so um your patriarchy 101 one plays in um which again is universal but then you put the entire concept of family honor in place um because to play the role of if i have a younger sister or a brother at home back home oh my gosh you know you brought dishonor to the family that may have an impact on them getting married i would like to just add a little bit more to that is that i'm anecdotally i have not

looked at the numbers but I'm seeing more and more urban women are not taking any more nonsense and are you know taking steps are divorcing so there are things that are changing you know I don't want the audience to think that oh this is a very conservative you know society and you know women don't have any rights but why now why do you think you're seeing that now what does that mean I think with the increase in the levels of education and with more and more women getting out of their homes and earning their own money with their financial independence, you know, women are, you know, speaking up.

And I think the internet connects globally, connects people globally. It's as simple as that. And I'm not saying that, you know, there are no problems. There are still a lot of problems and not everybody gets to speak up and not everybody gets to do the action. But I've also noticed that a lot of South Asians here maybe, so there is a contradiction in what I'm saying, but maybe very well-educated or a lot of sample of my research studies

have been doctors, really specialist doctors, but still tolerate abuse or are not okay, but have not done anything about it. And a lot of it is because of the shame, you know. As we explore this, I think our audience would be interested to hear a bit about dowries because they are written about in the book and interesting in how it overlays with this conversation. Right.

So even before we speak about it, I just want, you know, especially in India, a dowry has been banned in 1961 through the dowry prohibition act and there are laws in place that if you are found to be asking for dowry or harassing your wife or daughter-in-law you can basically be imprisoned right in spite of that dowry is an integral part of Indian marriages so a little bit of history now we actually started among the upper caste Hindus during the Vedic period and the reason it started it's the reason is actually really a good reason uh women were not allowed to inherit their natal property right birth property because once once a girl gets married she is considered to be the property of her husband and in-laws property right uh so she

cannot inherit anything from a natal family so this was a financial security for her so she was given land jewelry money clothes whatever during the British rule the Britishers passed laws that women can no longer own land or own property or own you know things and so what started happening during colonization is that a lot of this was then given to the in-laws of the husband and they started owning it so even though it was a financial security for the woman it was all done with a good intention um this it went into the hands of you know the in-laws of the husband so eventually uh you know it was banned but it still is it's like an don't ask don't tell kind of thing people still do it in all kinds of marriages it's under the guise of gifts what happens and why is

is connected to what we're talking about today. So especially in cases of domestic violence or when a woman decides to divorce and if she's in the United States, she may go and tell the social worker or somebody who's helping her, what about what was given to me in dowry? And you will be surprised. She'll say, hey, but that's back home and my mother-in-law has it. But remember, it was given to her so it is her valuables and her jewelry now because of then there is no international law in place right so how does she retrieve that in india we have laws in place which again you can still question whether women really get it back or not and it's called street hunt which is like a woman's wealth but when she's here and it's not with her how do we facilitate that she gets back

all that was given to her as a gift and you know that's why it becomes really important to at least have a basic understanding exactly trying to say hey you know it's not just the marriage expenses but these gifts were given to me and you know i would like to have them back do you think that social workers should have a basic understanding of the complexities of the history of the tension between different religious ethnic religious groups ethnic groups i mean um i found myself curious about that as i was reading the book what is your perspective India is a very, very unique country, and there are tensions, definitely, you know, amongst Hindus, Muslims, especially. It is important to have that understanding.

It's also important to know that it's important to know that you know the facts. So, you know, Bangladesh and Pakistan were parts of India. And, you know, Pakistan was born in 1947 when India gained independence. and then Bangladesh was born in 1971. It's important to know the facts and understand the differences between the religions and also know, like, for example, if you have a Hindu client,

and I'm just giving you the basics, there's a lot more nuances and we could chat for the entire day or probably weeks, you know, getting into the complexities. But it's important to know basic things, right? If you're in a women's shelter, hindu women will not or a hindu person may not never eat beef because cow is holy to them

and similarly a muslim client will never eat pork because you know pigs are unholy for them right so one is the issue of vegetarian food versus non-vegetarian food have understanding that peace is also important so just ask the dietary you know needs especially in a shelter setting But also understand that those things won't matter when you're trying to be culturally responsive. Engage in NASW's National Connect to End COVID-19 campaign today. It's a CDC-funded initiative to support social workers and their clients in informed vaccine decision-making. NASW and the NASW Foundation are partnering with the University of Texas at Austin Steve Hicks School of Social Work to provide national webinars, chapter trainings, tools, and information that promote vaccine

confidence among social workers and equip them to support clients in informed vaccine decision-making. Visit NASW's website to learn more and join the campaign. In being culturally responsive, in knowing the facts, in having a deeper understanding, which I do feel like I gained from reading your book, I'm curious, what other resources might you recommend beyond your book, whether pop cultural or otherwise? I mean, you referenced this earlier in the conversation, and I wonder what you would suggest. right um i would say so pop culture there are some i mean i have a few names that i would recommend in terms of movies that have been made they're very very sensitively made around

social issues so there's one which is uh actually called but high though which is basically it's it's it's a beautiful love story about a gay man and a lesbian woman go to a marriage of convenience and uh funnily enough i've you know the author has mentioned that in her chapter but uh it's very sensitively made um so that is one there is one very recent called dr g which is around the entire issue of sexism that we see both subtle and blatant about how we treat women and their bodies. And there is, Hasan Minhaj has done a comedy, a stand-up comedy. It's the one in 2017, Homecoming King. I think he talks about Lob Kya Kahenge too, really well. So these are the two, three that I would recommend if people are interested in pop culture. But other than that,

I would say a lot of the bigger universities have South Asian institutes, South Asian centers, You know, like it might be a history or, you know, a religion or an interdisciplinary kind of center. Those would be the places where you want to probably get a minor or, you know, probably get your resources from. It also depends on thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. There is also another, there's a directory of South Asian therapists that was started in June of 2020. Okay. And it's a global directory, so you can literally look up any part of the world and look up for a South Asian therapist there.

How do you access the directory? You just Google South Asian therapist. Okay. And I have, yeah, that has been a huge resource for, so in the United States and UK, you know, And we have, in a lot of other countries, we have licensed therapists. India does not have licensure, but you still can find, you know, people working in the field of mental health in different parts of the world. And so that is a huge resource if somebody is seeking help for mental health. And you mentioned in this conversation sexism as an ism.

and one thing we have not yet covered is colorism okay can you speak to colorism for our audience please yeah so colorism basically means the preference for the lighter skin tone and as i've mentioned in my book we don't know how it all started but we know for sure that it is widely accepted um and there is preference for lighter skin um and so we don't know if it was the moguls you know who came from the persian belt or if it was the european colonization or you know how did it all start but currently it's it's a multi-billion dollar industry where you know uh fair skin is just sold to people a lot of people are speaking out against it now and you know there are there are campaigns against it but we still see ads of you know um we want a

fair and beautiful bride or you know those kind of things so uh the preference for the lighter skin tone is you know what colorism is and so discrimination on the skin tone right so um we have to get again into the details of the cast class and all of those things to understand this so a little bit about the skin tone could also be because of the climate so there are certain regions like the southern part of india or you know countries like sri lanka where because the sun is bright and hot if you're out you know the the color of the skin is darker then there is this concept of people of lower caste who are expected or were expected to do jobs outside in the hot sun did not have the resources to care for their skin and hence have you know the darker skin tone

so it's all it's all intertwined with um you know the darker the skin tone uh the lesser off you are kind of considered um and the preference is for the lighter skin tone so when we talk about south asians in the u.s it's like you know girls are still given this message oh don't go out and baseballs in the hot sun you know you'll get dark your skin will get tanned and then nobody will marry you you know and so uh messages around those um you know messages that that social workers and other helping professionals really need to be educated about attuned to yes yeah and you know i've actually explained and i wanted to bring it up because it's a bit it's it's like racism but it's very different and um it's it could be a person of the lower caste or it may

not be you know but it still is and there is a lot of um discrimination that happens within the community with the skin tone people belong to the northern parts of the indian subcontinent versus people who belong to the southern parts of the indian subcontinent right and so um there is a lot of bias that we have even within our community with regard to the skin tone and you know how does that play out when you're bringing up daughters um especially daughters because you know there are there are hindu texts where we have figures like you know lord ram or lord krishna you know well they weren't dark-skinned but then when we talk of goddess parvati um apparently you know she had to get a boon to become fair-skinned to impress large shiva you know

and so there is that intertwined sexism along with colorism that's playing in and you're sending these messages not even realizing it from generations you know from one generation to another and um and that's where you know your beauty industry jumps in and wants to sell you these dreams um and uh yeah there we are and some of the products are just downright dangerous they are really are yeah so you you will also notice a lot of bollywood actresses that their skin tone in the 90s and the 2000 in the skin tone now so you know what kind of treatments are they undergoing for a lighter skin tone and why is that so important you know why is a darker skin tone not acceptable you know where is this bias coming from and um so it's there

we don't i'm not going to comment on what the sources are not trying to blame anybody it's it's there in almost everybody um are we willing to look at it are we willing to address it that's that's the question yeah i and i think social workers are always in the sphere of people who need to look at it and figure out the most appropriate ways to begin to address it. Is there anything else that you want to make sure our audience knows about your book, Dr. Vandari? I would just say a neat thing that we did in this book, and I deliberately wanted to do this, is that every chapter has a case study. So whether domestic violence or whether parenting

or, you know, or dreadouts or visa issues. So if you really want to get an authentic picture of the issues that this community experiences, and if you do experience that, and when you go out and seek help, if you have the resources, it may not be that difficult. But the issue arises when you don't have the resources or, you know, you are in a smaller town where there isn't a large South Asian population, right? So it's, I would say it's a good way of educating yourself or somebody who wants to know more about this community.

Yes, the way you laid it out just runs the full circle of important topics. And for example, with the visas, and the way that the rules changed and changed back and what that means for women and working. I had no idea about that. And I should, I should know about that. I really thank you for writing the book. As you know, many in our audience are social workers, and I think it would be great to hear more about you and your path toward a social work education. How did you decide to become a social worker? So I was, I had started volunteering when I was in my first or second year. So maybe you would say a freshman or a sophomore at an organization for street kids. And that just, you know, interested me in social work. And then I did not know that there was a master's in social work program in Mumbai where I grew up. So I was told about that by an uncle of mine. And it was pretty competitive at that time.

So I got into the master's in social work there. And it was a challenge in the beginning, but I was interested in the field. And as I went in and did my master's in social work, I really started liking it more and more. And then my first job was, I worked as a social worker in the field of domestic violence. That really trained my brain and mind to think like a social worker, work like a social worker, research, and even educate to some extent. So, yeah. And that was at Tata Institute of Social Sciences in Mumbai, India. And then you came here for your doctorate in social work. Right. What strikes you about one place versus the other in terms of the social work education?

So my goal was to, you know, basically not run away from practice, but i think widening my horizons a little bit more uh getting into a research based um arena so to speak because i realize that practice is good and i you know it's funny that i've come back to practice and i'm practicing now along with teaching and other things but uh and so i was it was not fairly common but i did know a few people who had come to the united states for their doctorate and i was told that that would really give me a very very um broad exposure to the field and then the sky is the limit so um i knew i wanted to do something in domestic violence uh and so i applied to a few schools and this when i came to missouri columbia

university of missouri columbia we had researchers doing domestic violence work there and that's how I worked on an NIH grant with Johns Hopkins and all of that. But we had people working there in the field of domestic violence. And that's what, you know, interested me to come here and, you know, work in this area and take it from there. And how do you find, I mean, I asked you this question because I come to this conversation as a member of the NASW Private Practice Committee. and i am so glad to know that you're still practicing yeah yeah i i came back to the field uh i think around around the time covid hit and um it was my sabbatical year and i was i think i was missing the field and i also did not want to get obsolete in my classroom and so that got me

back and i actually um named my practice tasalli which tasalli counseling which is which actually means reassurance in uh urdu and uh because what led you to choose that name um i wanted it to be a you know a urdu or a hindi name um just because i was noticing so many south asians trying to seek help and not getting the right kind of care um and back home in India I worked in a center the center that I worked in was called the LASA the LASA is also another term for reassurance and I really like that term too it was the center for domestic violence and so this is uh I wouldn't say it's a synonym but it's a similar term but I wanted it to be a South Asian name rather than you know hope peace and you know those kind of things because i wanted them to feel at home so even my

website has images of people from south asia you know uh so that they feel that you know they belong here and don't feel that oh this is you know somebody who may never understand us so well dr bandari uh thank you so much for joining social work talks uh listeners viewers you can learn more about Dr. Bhandari and how to purchase her book, South Asians in the United States, a guide for social workers and other helping professionals through the show notes section of our website. Coming soon will be a way to get continuing education credit for the book. So if you purchase the book, you can look out for that in the not too distant future. And again, I thank you so much for joining us, and I thank you for writing this wonderful book.

Thank you so much, Elizabeth.