National Park After Dark - 162: Park Predators After Dark

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

Today we are joined by Delia D’Ambra of the Park Predators podcast as she walks us through what chilling cases season 4 has in store and shares her process investigating some of the most horrific true crime cases in the wilderness. Delia is an investigative journalist from North Carolina who started her career in journalism in 2014. She specializes in re-investigating cold case homicides and unsolved crimes. Like all of us, she is an outdoors enthusiast and is currently on a mission to check off every national park in North America from her list. You can learn more about Delia and catch up with Park Predators episodes HERE.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Listen to Monday.com. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform. So flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes, go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally, breathe. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs.

You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We have a great episode today because we have a special guest. A super special guest. Like, I just can't even tell you the full circle moment that just happened to me five minutes ago. I mean, obviously it was cool for Cassie, too. But like, you know, when you just have those people that you either grew up listening to or hearing or it's just someone that has played an important role in your life and you're like, I would never. Like, they seem like a world away, you know? Like they're not even real. They're not a real person. Yeah. Yeah. Well, guess what? It turns out Delia Diambra is a real person. And we just talked to her for 45 minutes. We did. And Delia Deambra is the host of Park Predators. She's not only the host.

but she is the writer and researcher for everything. And if you haven't listened to Park Predators, which you probably have because I feel like our whole audience has heard of it. But Park Predators is a national park-based podcast as well. And it's actually one of the first podcasts that I ever really listened to as well. So it's cool. We have a lot of respect for her and the work that she does. And she covers a lot of really, really important cases.

Intense, important cases. And just after speaking with her, you know, I, I listened to her since, I think, the first episode. I don't know how exactly I heard of it initially, but it quickly was on my radar, my podcast radar. And I remember listening to it at work, at the gym, you know, before I moved to Washington. And so it was a really cool, full circle moment just to be able to speak to her

because she provided a lot of the early inspiration for what this podcast eventually became. So, of course, we're talking about Park Predators today interviewing D.A. So to give you a more formal explanation of the podcast, Park Predators, Park Predators is a hit true crime podcast by host and investigative journalist Delia Diambra, which breaks down some of the most chilling murders at national parks and wild spaces. Thankfully, there are several seasons now of the show, but season four is the most recent and is being actively released now. It is a detailed and thorough compilation of some of the most horrific and mystifying true crime events

that have occurred in and around national parks and forest lands within North America and across the world. Each episode of the series takes a close look at the victims and perpetrators who are involved in these crimes. Every week, we as listeners are brought through a story of a homicide or missing person's case and how the crimes change the area where they took place. Delia is a journalist and storyteller born and raised in the Outer Banks of North Carolina. For nearly a decade, she has covered gripping stories for local, national, and international audiences. Her curiosity, ethics, and compassionate approach to reporting has set the standard in an industry that requires a precise balance of transparency and tenacity. She's also an avid outdoors

enthusiast and is currently on a mission to visit every national park in North America. Today, we welcome her to our show so she can give us a firsthand look into some of the most memorable cases of season four of park predators. And without further ado, Delia Diabra, welcome to the show. We are so happy to have you here today. Well, thank you so much for being here. We're so excited to have you. And we know our audience is very excited that you're here today. Yeah, I'm super thrilled. I think it's going to be a good chat. And I feel like we have so many people in common that listen to our shows. So it'll be good. Yeah, it's fun to meet and crossover. And we definitely, the amount of times we've gotten messages that are like, have you heard this on park predators? Have you heard of this? And we're like, oh, yeah, we listen to. Yep, we're all big fans. I know there's a lot of people probably losing their money.

minds right now. So we're happy about that. But before we get into, we know that you have some stories you'd like to share with us, which we're really looking forward to. But before we get into that, we wanted to talk a little bit about your personal journey and what led you here to start Park Predators. And we know that you've been working in investigative journalism for nearly a decade now. So is this some line of work that you've always wanted to get into? No, it actually wasn't as far as podcasting goes. But really, also, as far as journalism goes, because when I went to university, oh, Lord now, back in 2010, when I went to college, I actually went on pre-med and had scholarships for anesthesiologies, what I was the field I was going to go into.

But then I really just took this like hard, hard letter into journalism and storytelling. And I think I just was totally captured by talking with people, telling stories, learning, and just constantly being on that journey. And so that's where I really had this love of journalism. But I graduated and I went into like broadcast TV journalism. I was also like working in sports arenas and for sports teams at the time. So yeah, that that passion for journalism, I think really blossomed as I was coming into those kind of formative years of figuring out like what am I going to do with a career,

like how am I going to do this professionally? But as far as like crime stories, that just became essentially part of the job. Like when you are an on the ground like field reporter, particularly in local news, like that is what you're covering multiple times of day, you know, multiple different types of crime stories. So all of that just kind of gave me that experience and really put me on this trajectory to be doing like investigative work, but also just like getting really good at finding information and talking with people and doing interviews and crafting stories. So that's really where that started.

And then in 2018, when I created counterclock, which is. the other show that I host and produce for Audio Chuck, that really is where I first came into like the podcasting medium. Like I didn't, I had listened to some podcast, but I wasn't like a diehard podcast listener. But then I created that show. And then in 2020, Park Predators was another new show that I pitched to Ashley Flowers with Audio Chuck.

And so that just kind of all became. It just was this like evolving thing. Like podcasts were becoming more and more and like bigger and bigger at that time. But I just sort of like found my way into it. It was never like, that's what I'm going to do. me in for it and end up there. Yeah, so it's like this gradual evolution that brought you on this journey. And of course, crime, like you said, is everywhere, unfortunately, in all types of places and

spaces. But Park Predators is very specific. There's a very specific meet here. Obviously, it's wilderness, public lands, national parks, national forests. So is there a particular inspiration to that? Is it a love and affinity for the outdoors personally that kind of led you in that direction? or was it a specific case? Yeah.

So in 2020 is when I had actually just gotten married, recently gotten married. My husband and I, we'd known each other for years and years. We were so passionate about like we love fishing. We love hiking. We love visiting national parks. I grew up on an island on the east coast of North Carolina, like surrounded by water. So outdoor stuff was just like part of life. And so that was always something that we were really big on.

And it was a big part of how we. spent our time. But even going back to like some of the earlier days of my career, I took my first job, like just outside of Shed into a National Park. And I had covered stories about people going missing or, you know, instances of suspicious activity or crimes. And so all that sort of blended. And by 2020, we were also facing what, a pandemic, right? And so, you know, knowing that like people are really wanting to be out and about, that was sort of a factor that I realized, like, all of these things I've learned about where we go and the people we run into and the danger situations there are like, what about like a podcast about these instances specifically happening within the bounds of

national parks or recreation lands? Because I know that a lot of this stuff is going on, but like, how do like regular people? Like, do they know about it? And like how often do they know what's really going on? And so just really like going down that and looking at creatively, like, how do you pull something like that together? And there really was nothing else in the podcasting space like that at the time. And so I it was going to be a research-based show, which was good, right? Because I can cover a lot more content and, you know, possibly be more helpful than, you know, having to dedicate like a year or more to, like, investigating one single thing, you know, which I was already doing. So I think it was just a blend of all of that. But yeah, 2020, I think there were so many things happening in the world, so many things

personally that I was interested in and realizing that there was this sort of piece missing as far as podcast goes in the true crime genre on this topic. I love that you say or said that do other people know that these things are happening in national parks because it's funny actually park predators was one of the first podcasts I ever listened to. Oh, wow. I wasn't a big podcast person either when it all started. And when I saw the genre, I was like, wait, I like the outdoors. What is going on out here? Yeah. So I love that you said that because I feel like that was targeted to people like me. I'm like, hold on, what is happening? And then it made me think a little bit more while I was out there of these things that were happening there. And when you say that you started this and obviously you were researching there and you were already covering stories there,

was there a specific case that happened that you were like, I should start a podcast or was it just the overall being out there and covering ongoing cases? Yeah, I mean, it really was a lot of like the missing persons cases. I mean, I probably did like half a dozen of those. And they were, they were often people from all walks of life. So there was really nothing that I was like, oh, there's a pattern here. You know, that was just really, it was intriguing. And then, you know, some of those ended with, you know,

people choosing to take that path for themselves to disappear willingly or in their life. But others are still kind of open ended. And I know kind of in the newsroom that I was working at the time, the 1996 case of the two women hikers in Chendoa National Park. It was actually the hikers episode. I think it was season one of Park Predators. That was always kind of like this sort of, you know, notorious case that was still kind of looming. Everyone wanted to know. So, I mean, those are the kinds of cases that follow over the years.

So I had remembered hearing about that one. And yeah, I mean, it was just a mix of a lot of things. I had friends and family and folks out West that I was hearing things about periodically. And again, it was more in this sort of like spooky type rumor. Like there's this kind of thing like lure. But I'm like, no, this isn't lore. Like, this is real. Crimes are actually happening or, you know, suspicious circumstances are actually happening. And so, yeah, that's kind of, for me, it was just kind of a lot of things that came together.

And then once I really was going to go all in on podcasting, I realized like, oh, I have the time and the ability and the capacity now instead of doing this high-intensity job as a reporter in local broadcast news, which was very time-consuming. And what I really made that leap fully to podcasting, I was like, oh, I can give these stories the time and the recent. search and the dedication they need to really do it well instead of just doing it like kind of on the fly. Yeah. And you mentioned Julian Lolley in Shannon Doa National Park. And I think that one hit a lot of hearts because you say lore and I think that there was a lot of like headlines that were clickbait almost to try and get people to look into it. But then when you actually, and I did listen to the episode that you covered two of them and we've talked about them in our podcast too, when you actually look into Julie and Lolly, they're such relatable people. And hearing their story was like,

wow, I feel like these people would have been my friends. And they're the type of stories that just like really touch your heart. Yeah. And I think to their case, as well as other cases that kind of fall into this chasm of, you know, the 90s and even the 80s to some extent where, you know, DNA, forensic, investigating these kinds of things by even law enforcement agencies wasn't. then what it is now. And also when you think about the jurisdictional issues that can plague cases like this, so the transition between local state and possibly federal authorities and search and rescue and all sorts of stuff, there's just, I can definitely tell from doing this now as long as I have that there are these sort of gaps in time where some cases just occurred in a time and a place

where, you know, maybe now if it happened today, things would be different. And so I think that's something that people really do take away from listening to the stories in the show is, wow, like, not only is this like a challenge to begin with because of the environment, because of the geography and the jurisdictional issues, but like time is also a factor too. And time in the woods where most people are not super familiar or well versed. So, yeah, I think that's one of the kind of interesting things, but also one of the really saddening things, too. 100%. And in the woods, it's so much harder to get evidence, to collect evidence.

Are you seeing a lot of evidence? Yeah. What is in evidence? That's a hard question. Is this branch? Is it this rock? Is it, you know, are you seeing a lot of cases that you have covered in the past or know a lot about a lot of DNA stuff coming up now where it wasn't researched before? I definitely think that there's possibility.

So for some of the cases, I think the aisle was one of the cases from last season where there is like a new cold case detective, for example, or a. a current investigator who's like looking back and like actively having things retested because they are up to date on what can be done. So that like to me like that's that's really exciting, right? But there are some of those cases where, you know, there isn't much there left because of either what was collected or what wasn't collected. But I think a lot, a lot of the ones that I've covered, there are some that are still open ended, which again is like push for information, right? Like push for people and things that maybe could get it to that point. So that's also something that think I really try and utilize the show platform for is if there is still information wanted

or stuff sought that that gets out there and possibly in the right ears of the right person. Like you just have no idea the power that that one podcast episode could have and it could just like go through the grapevine and actually end up with someone that's really important to the case. So I know that that's meant a lot to the episodes in which I've worked with families. Again, a lot of the content is research based, but there is a significant number of episodes. that I have actually done interviews, maybe not use the audio, but I've done interviews to kind of fill the gaps in the story with family members or friends. And those people are usually always down,

right? Because they're like, please, we don't have any other option at this point. So that's kind of encouraging. Absolutely. And so we are here to talk primarily about season four, your latest season of Park Predators, but clearly you've investigated many, many different stories. So before we kind of dive into some particular cases within this season, I was just curious, is there a particular case, especially after you just mentioned, you talked with family members and friends and have been pretty deep into the lives of the victims? Is there a particular case that is just kind of always stuck with your heart or on your mind out of all of the different stories that you've covered? Yeah, I definitely think the Michael Heeran case from, I think it was season two or season three,

He was a man that went missing in Great Smoky Mountains National Park. He actually owned land that basically butted up to the border. I think it was the first episode of one of the past seasons. That one has really stuck with me, mostly because it's a missing person, right? Like, there's this assumption that, yes, he's likely deceased at this point. But there are just so many odd things about the circumstances surrounding his disappearance and who he may or may not have come in contact with the fact that he was riding a four-wheeler and the four-wheelers found. and he's not found.

But interviewing his son was just something that I don't think I'll ever forget because his son was on the searches for his dad and was part of the groups finding these clues along the way and just really hearing his passion for trying to figure out like what happened to his father, but also just his, I don't know, I just think his love and the remembrance and the legacy of his dad that he really tries to keep alive. I think they did some walks and things in his honor. So that one really, I think that one really has. stuck with me, but it's probably because it's open-ended, you know, and I think that we're all sort of like,

what? How is there not an answer? That one's definitely been one that's stuck with me. But another one that hit me super hard, and I didn't know it would, was the Amazon. It's from this season. And it's about a journalist and a conservationist. One was from the UK. One was from the Amazon.

And just they died or were killed while doing a sort of a tour of the Amazon. They were killed by illegal fishermen on that trial is still ongoing. But just, again, just like learning the intimacies of these people's lives and like who they really were and what they were doing and why it was making such a huge difference. And then to have their lives cut short by people who were doing wrong things in like protected lands who should not have been. That to me, I was like, man. And just knowing that like, yes, their legacies will live on in their deaths, but at the same time,

like how much good they could have done for the world. and like people need to know them and remember them. And so that one like to me when I finished writing it and it went out, I was like, wow, this hits hard for some reason. It just does. And maybe it's because I'm a journalist and I don't know, but it just, that one was definitely pretty big for me. I just listened to that episode and I feel the same way after like the way that you

described it how hard it hit you. Just hearing about people who are so passionate about conservation and out there doing these wonderful, beautiful things to have their life taken away from them for essentially probably a money grab. People are trying to make money. And while they're trying to do something that's saving the planet and helping people and doing these beautiful things and to see that is just, it's really, it's really devastating. And I literally just listened to that episode. It's brush on the mind. It is. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I probably wrote that episode like months and months ago at this point. But like when they finally come out, I'm like, oh, gosh, this is so like,

I forgot like how important this was. And I think that's another piece. of this whole thing too, and I try and touch on it throughout the show episodes as I can, is the people that are really passionate about, you know, protecting parks or working in parks. I've done a couple episodes on park rangers that have been killed in the line of duty or, again, conservationist or what have you. And I think it's even more heartbreaking because these are the people who know these places the best. Like they are probably the what most people would see as the most prepared and the most, like, you know, passionate. And so when you see someone like that

become a victim of a terrible crime or a killer or something like that, I'm just like, oh, man, like the rest of us don't stand a chance. Like, that sounds terrible. Like that's a, you know, I don't want to sound like paranoid in that, but I just think that that's something

to really think about too is that even the best of those can like succumb to these like terrible tragedies. And maybe that's just a reality of life. Well, even on the other side of that, yeah, you're viewing that as through the lens of if it can happen. to them like of course it can happen to me but even on the other side of that with story shared of people

who are you know not park rangers or in law enforcement or these big notorious conservationists that you have nothing like really professionally in common with them you have a lot in common of the places that you choose to recreate and spend your time and the places that you love and i feel like you can see a little bit of yourself or the people that you love in them and obviously that is a big reason that these stories pull at the heartstrings of our collective audience. Yeah, and I think that's why the show really, like, has taken off the way it has. Like, it's pulling not just from, like, listeners that are, like, wanting true crime content, right?

But it's also, like, there's this entire other piece of the audience that's truly just people who are, like, loving the outdoors. And I think what's able to get those listeners is not just like, oh, this, this, you know, wild story. But it's genuinely, like, them thinking, I have. been on that trail. I have been to that park or my loved one is going to this park or, you know, like myself, I got married in this park, you know. And so I think there is this personal attachment that we have, particularly those of us that love like camping and hiking and being in the outdoors.

Like we have attachment to these places. And so when we see these incidents happen in these places, it really is like we can put ourselves there. And I just think that that's one thing that really pulls a lot of people to listening to the show and wanting to engage with the content when there is that opportunity to get information out or help promote it and that kind of thing. It's a big community. The outdoor community is unlike any other, you know, just as far as the willingness to help anytime you can. So, well, I think we've asked you enough for now. We want to hear some stories from you. I know that you have a couple to share. Yeah, we were just wanting to know about the season and what brought you to tell these specific stories? Because for season four,

you jump all over the globe. We're in California. We're in Australia. We're in the Amazon. What brought you to these specific stories and these parts of the world for this season? Yeah. So really, I wanted to make sure that this season covered far and wide, unlike any other time before. I was getting a good amount of traction with people like submitting ideas and submitting potential content and that was really coming from all over the world. And I was like, I really want to make this as global as I can. The only challenge with that is that, you know, sometimes there's just not enough material there to really do like a full-length episode or like a case is too recent, right? Like I did run into that. There is an episode coming out. It's called The Tent. It's about a family that was killed last year while they were camping. And this is like literally last summer. The Amazon literally happened in 2022. So there is this sense of like there has to be enough and it can't. be like interruptive to like current things that are going on right like I want to make sure that that we have that piece of it but yeah I mean there are a lot of listeners from Australia, Canada, England and so I just thought okay let me find the ones that I'm hearing from people and getting

their feedback on so that was really important for me but another big focus that I had for this season was making sure that I kept a significant timeline as far as like how far back am I going are they all like I don't want all the cases just to be from the last five years I don't want them all to just be from like the 80s and 90s. So each season, including this one, like, I went back. I think the oldest one is like over 100 years or something like that. So it's like there is there, there are ones that are like still unresolved or partially unresolved like a hundred years later. And so there's that kind of element of history to it as well. So I definitely like to keep a good array of the locations, but also the years and timeframes. Because I think what's

really important for people to remember is that crimes, how they're either in investigated or solved, like do depend on the time in which they occurred. So 1930 is going to be very different from 1970. It's going to be very different from 2010, which is going to be very different from 2019. And I think that's obvious. But again, when you go back to where these crimes are occurring, it's not so obvious. And so that was definitely something that, you know, with the episodes this season that I definitely wanted to make sure people got a sense of, for sure. When you're investigating these stories that have happened like a hundred years ago, 1930s, whatever it is, how do you go into your research for that?

Because obviously, that's going to be a lot harder to find the information that you're looking for. It can be. Yeah. So the upside to something being like significant enough being that old is that hopefully, you know, NPS or whatever agency does have some archive. And in the cases I've chosen, that has been pretty, pretty easy to come by. You know, there's always records requests you can do. There's usually a good amount of news coverage and archive newspaper and things like that that that you can pull or anniversary pieces and things like that.

So that's helpful. But, you know, also, too, there may be one or two books out there. You know, maybe they're obscure. Maybe they weren't published. There's only like 100 copies published or something. But I know that for the child, for example, which is the Laura Bradbury case from last season, though that was a significantly high publicized case in the news space, her dad actually. wrote a book and it has not been in publication for years and years, but through different research and different connections, I was able to get my hands on a copy of that. And so that to me is like,

there's different processes that I can take to get like as much of the full story as possible. So yeah, with the older cases, like archive is definitely helpful. But even just like shooting over a records request or getting on the phone and talking to someone with a park or state entity, like that's done the trick sometimes. And that's kind of cool. Because. ordinarily most people would be like can't find it on the on the Googles move on you know it sounds a lot like what we have a library of books for yeah all of the things that we research and we have an ongoing joke on the podcast because we everyone's like you should start a book club because we find these obscure books we're like hey this person actually knew or was part of it I found books from people who

wrote a book a hundred years ago and they have like their account of the story and things like that. So it's very interesting to, once you really dig into it, the type of articles and books and literature, you can just pull up out of weird spaces. Yeah. And I think, too, like there's this whole book market, right? Like, I think about Killers of the Flower Moon, right? Like, that's like something that is so, but that guy, like, did years and years and years of research and it's like going through family genealogy trees and stuff like that. So when you find those good books like that, that kind of have a lot of that built in, like, yes, utilize that as some of your sources. material because it really doesn't exist anywhere else because somebody went and had to to gather that.

So I definitely think there are ways to cover a wide array of stories dating back as far as, you know, whenever if you look and can get your hands on the right material. Definitely. And we found that in a lot of different ways as well, like as you're saying. And you said sometimes you'll reach out to the park service as well. Yeah. I have many emails with different public information officers or phone calls or state park wild you know, there's so many different names, right?

Like it's in the Texas Wildlife Commission or whatever it is. And it's been really helpful. And sometimes I'll just get on the phone and a detective for an agency will agree to talk to me because they're in charge of the case now. And, you know, there may be some things that the gaps can't be filled because of the integrity of their investigation, but they could at least provide me with enough context that I can't find, you know, between all of the different source material. So, but another thing, too, I think with this season, one story,

that's coming up with this season is that Aubrey Sacco case. She disappeared in basically Nepal, like in the mountains. It was Langtang National Park. And I'm really excited for people to hear her story because her parents are so active, even to this day, are still very active in trying to find out what happened to her. But they, as you can imagine, have run up against barriers of being thousands of miles away from where their daughter vanished and has never been found. And so I really think like trying to get those cases represented of not just like, okay, here's kind of what happened.

But like here's the struggle that this family went through. And like this could happen to anyone that is traveling internationally. Like anyone's family who knows they're going overseas or, you know, staying in hostels or whatever. So I just think like that case is one that's coming up with this season. Then I think people, gosh, man, I just, you could really see what her family went through and continues to go through. So that's one that I think is really one that. people will engage with, I'm pretty sure. We've heard of her case before too, actually, so we know exactly what you're talking about. We've had people write in about it and how it hasn't been solved.

People have sent in videos of her singing because she was a big singer and we're definitely familiar with that one. So it's great that you're covering it on the season. When you work with these families and you talk to these families, I guess for us, like when we have researched these really difficult cases and we see what families are going through, it's pretty hard. It's hard to see how does it affect you when you research these? I mean, yeah, I mean, I dedicate like a whole day or two just, I'm like, okay, today I'm just going to work on Park Predators because it's really heavy and I need to take a break here or there. But I find myself with the mix of determination and like a little bit of anger like because I do see like this should not, this process should not be this way or this should not be this way. Like you kind of have the sense of like, man, I wish I could like retroactively go back and and fix it and make it.

better. Like, hey, what are you doing? Why did you do this? I'm like, what? Like, whose call was that? But then I also, I think that's what is like gives me that, that sense of determination too of like, okay, I'm going to get the information that's out there. And if there's variations of information, like make that clear for the listener. Like, hey, this says this. But there are also a couple other places where it says this. And it's really hard to know exactly what was going on. But like, here's the full context. Instead of just like, if there was misreporting, for example, like perpetuating that, you know, like providing clarity where clarity needs to be provided about, you know, what someone, what direction they were going or who this person was that was talked to or this law enforcement agency. Like, I do think there are times that you have to just like be all of that up front because there are times where there's, there can be so much, you know, potential for misreporting that's happened. And so you need to kind of help set the records rate when and where you can. Because if you don't, then you're just like becoming more of the problem, if that makes sense. Yeah. You're inserting yourself into this. perpetual cycle. Yeah. It's like, I'm not saying this is exactly because I know when I was there,

but here's what all of these reputable, credible sources are saying. And there is, there's sometimes contradictions. And like, so what does that mean? Like, is their language barrier an issue? Is there jurisdictional issues with someone misquoted? Like, you know, all that kind of stuff. Right. And it seems, I mean, it's obvious to us that you have a huge passion for every case that you cover every story that you share with everyone. And when Cassie and I started National Park After Dark, we just had a goal of inspiring people to get outdoors, appreciate nature and respect wildlife and hopefully an inspiration to travel to some new places. What is your, if you had to boil it down to one goal for park predators, what would that be? I think it would be for people to

remember these individuals, remember their lives, remember their stories. And in whatever way, better prepare themselves for being in the outdoors and visiting some of these places and being aware. And I don't say that saying that these victims in these cases didn't do that. I mean, these folks were, you know, there's no blame in anything. But I do think that learning what we can from history and incidents can better prepare us for being in these places. And I just think that always having those like spidey senses, like if someone listens to an episode of Park Predators and then the next time they get a very strange feeling from someone they don't know that they encounter or something that looks suspicious, like it will prompt

them to act differently than maybe they would have acted before. And to me, like, that's, that's a good thing. I think that that's helping everyone, whether it be protected themselves or, like, could help someone else down the road. Like, if they hadn't seen something and said something, what would that situation have manifested into that could have hurt someone else? You know what I mean? So I think that's probably the biggest, the best way I can answer that question. I think as women, too, we're kind of taught from a young age that you have to be polite. So a lot of times when we feel this intuition and this uncertainty about a person, we are polite. So to hear these stories where a lot of people are, they're just polite to these people who they feel threatened by because that's what we've always been taught to be.

And to hear these situations where it's like, you know, maybe I shouldn't be polite. maybe I should be angry or leave or what I get out of those situations and to really listen to your intuition. I know for me, I've listened to episodes where you hear stories where people encounter these really scary people. And now when I'm out and I start feeling these weird feelings and I've come across people that make me uncomfortable. I'm like, I need to, I need to get out of this situation. Whereas I've also found myself in the same situations where I've been polite and stayed and talk to them instead. And I do go back to hearing other stories and like, hold on a second. Like, what could potentially happen here? Yeah. I think it's, it's really important for people to, particularly

young women or anyone that would be viewed, you know, as as more vulnerable, right? Like, just to remember those basic things. And I've said this before in other interviews is even just utilizing things like the buddy system, right? Like, I mean, in some of the cases, there were, there were multiple victim, so I'm not saying that that's full proof, but like utilizing the buddy system, not remaining in a situation that you feel uncomfortable in and not having this false sense of security in, oh, we're all in this together. We're all at this park together. We all love this one place. Like, these are total strangers. I don't know, but I'm just going to trust them because we all have this mutual like happiness. There's this false sense of security that you can get in these bigger

areas where it's like, oh, we're all on the same team here. We all love photography or we all love hiking and we all love camping. We're at the same, but it's like, no, if there are things that are red flags, they are red flags for a reason. And so remove yourself from that situation, because otherwise, you have no idea what you're actually really dealing with. And I think that some of these individuals who commit these types of crimes, they are banking on, oh, everyone's just going to be super polite and chill and no one's going to be suspicious. And I'm not saying run around paranoid, but what I am saying is that people who are doing these types of things, they're banking on people letting their guard down in these spaces because everyone seems to have this shared sense of

community. And I just think that that we have to work against that if we're going to try and prevent more things like this from happening in the future. Yeah, just raising the sense of awareness all around is all you can hope for. And just by sharing the stories, I mean, we kind of struggle with the same thing. Like, we don't want people to be paranoid that they're going to be devoured by a grizzly bear because they're hiking in grizzly country. You know, like, we just want people to think twice and be aware and just be more cautious of their surroundings and while simultaneously enjoying themselves. And we found that through sharing darker sided stories or dark history stories, we found an overwhelmingly positive response to that in a space that it could have

potentially gone the other way of people being frightened and scared and reluctant and were really happy that we found the opposite to be overwhelmingly true. But to kind of like, lighten this up towards the end. I know like we got pretty heavy a little bit as this content can obviously be. We know that you're on a mission of your own to visit all the national parks in the United States. So congrats. How far along are you? Are you keeping track? Yes, we are. Well, it's weird, because I was keeping track before I met my husband and now we are like keeping track together. So I think there's been some overlap. So I got to go back and double check like what are. Because we do actually love, we love national parks, but I'm also like, I love national forests. I love like state parks as

well. So I have probably been to close to a hundred of the combination of those two, like probably in the last six or seven years, I want to say, just because every time I go to like a new city for work or whatever, I like jet to the nearest park, outdoor like landscape. And so I am just not, I cannot be in the city or city place for super long without finding like the nearest thing. And thankfully, there's usually like state parks or things like that nearby. But I really want to go. One of my main goals, I almost got married in Banff in Canada. I really want to go there. But of course, the pandemic made things. That was like we were planning it. And it was like, I don't know. Oh, no. Yeah. So I know. So they can't go to Canada. But yeah, that's kind of next on our bucket list.

There's just so many, right? Like there's just a lot. And it's funny because I feel like when I cover these stories and I researched them so thoroughly. I almost feel like I have been there, even though I have it. Right. There's a part of it's like, I know this. So I can't go to the ones I want to visit. I'll be very well versed. But yeah, I seem to really like the ones that are not where I, like, so I live in coastal

area. I grew up on coastal areas. So I tend to find myself more drawn to like, you know, thick woods, like backcountry, like, you know, mountains because it's so different than what I grew up with and like where I'm living now. So I really do. And my husband enjoys that too. we have a little boy now. He's almost a year and a half. So he's with us in the baby Bjorn.

And so that's going to kind of like probably change a little bit of where we can visit and for help. Move a little slower. Yeah. Yeah. Like we got to pick our hikes a little bit more carefully now. No like major switchbacks because that'll just be exhausting carrying a little bit. Got some extra weight in your pack now. People do it though. I love it. I love when I see like on Instagram or wherever these folks just or even like, you know, parents doing it, single parents or whatever. Like they got multiple kids. I'm like, yes, go for it. Like they got everything. I don't know. I think it's awesome. But it's not on my claim for right now. I saw someone this winter. I was cross-country skiing. And I saw this woman and she had her kid who was probably like a year old. And she was cross-country skiing with them. And she had a whole like contraption. I don't know what it was. But it was like, yeah, it was like a baby carriage on skis that she was going uphill with, downhill with. It's amazing.

You are badass. It's very cool. I am going, I'm going to Italy for like two weeks in the fall of this year and I was searching the other day like the national parks or areas that they have in the country. So we may pop into one of those which would be really cool because I feel like, you know, those parts of Europe like there is so much history and so many cool things that like still sort of exist in these little like nature ecosystems. It feels like they haven't been touched for centuries and you just kind of show up and you're like, oh, this is a whole other one. world. So I'm really looking forward to that. So I think it'll be good. And thankfully, like, you know, we'll have like a car and everything to get around with. So yeah, I might come back with like new content. Who knows? I would love to hear an Italy-based park predators. Right. Yeah. Just because my family's Italian and I, I identify with the Italian culture. Very much. Yeah, mine too. Like my dad is 100% Italian. I'm half and like we're actually going over there for him. It's like a trip we all gave to him and my sisters. So it's going to be this very big like, cool like family celebration thing but I'm also going to be like I got to stop at this park real quick

I'll be back that is too funny because we can really search so hard to that like anytime we see an informational board or something we're like oh let's peek over at that see what what's going on over there and it's like yeah we're here we were just in yosemite for vacation quote unquote and we came out with like I don't know Cassie picked up like five books we have a note tab of all these different things It's, yeah, it's hard to, when you're actually genuinely really interested in the history and stories that take place in locations that you also unwind in, it's hard to separate the two. And I feel like that's a good problem to have because it just means that you're enjoying your work and you are really invested on a lot of different levels. So I hope you have like a good time, but also, you know, sneak in some work when you can. I know, yeah.

And I think a part of it, too, it goes back to like, Like, we all really love parks in the outdoors, but there are, like, there are people that are in these places who aren't. Like, they're there doing destructive behavior. They're not, like, they don't have appreciation. And so whenever I can, I don't know, rope in my family or friends to, like, feel the way I feel, when they see someone or something like that, they're like, oh, yeah, that doesn't belong. I'm like, yes, I know. Like, thank you. Like, thank you for noticing.

Yeah. So that's a part of it. for me too. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Delia, for coming. It's definitely a full circle moment. I mean, Cassie mentioned she wasn't a big podcast listener when we went on this journey. But I have always been a, I love podcasts.

And I had listened. I was in the animal hospital in surgery. I was a surgical tech, you know, doing anesthesia and roping the doctors into listening to your episodes. Oh, my gosh. in surgery. And so to just be able to have the opportunity to sit down with someone who inspired part of our journey, it's really nice. And we love Park Predators. We listen all the time. And we know that our audience already does. But if there's anyone out there who has no idea and

you're living under a raw, where can they find you? Yeah. So Park Predators is available, you know, everywhere, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You can pretty much find it anywhere. Follow Audio Check on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and stuff, they're always putting stuff out about, like, the current content or follow-ups or things like that. I'm Delia.diambra.d.w.com on Instagram. That's where you're going to see, like, all my stuff related to the show, but also just, like, my personal love of the outdoors and my family and just all that kind of stuff. So I really like engaging with people and reading their, like, DMs and messages because, you know, I'm already writing the next season, and some of those are turning into future episodes. So you're really passionate and you're

listener or you're new to the show and you want to submit a story. Like, I'm there. I'm, I handpick all of these. I research and write all of these. And I love engaging with the audience and also getting stories that deserve to be on a platform like this. Awesome. And to be able to give people that opportunity is obviously like you had mentioned earlier, something that, you know, these families that I have nowhere else to turn. And to give a voice to that such a far reaching voice is something that obviously I think a lot of people are extremely appreciative for. Yeah, I'm not, this show is not for entertainment. It is not for, you know, glorifying anything about these crimes. I'm genuinely trying to help the ones that I can help and correct or make informed narratives

about the ones that perhaps haven't been like fully put out there in their full context. So I think it's really important when people can engage like that. And I certainly want to help however I can. And the season right now, season four is ongoing and there's episodes being released every week. Currently, how many episodes are in season four? They're 15. They're 15. It spans the whole summer. So it's like Memorial Day all the way through like the end of August.

New ones every Tuesday. And I'm just really glad because I feel like the summertime is such a like there is a timing to putting things out right, like just so that you know, people will listen and be engaged. But people like come back summer after summer for this show. And I just, I'm so. glad it spans the timeframe that it does because I feel like you get the most engagement and the stories get the most exposure. Absolutely. Cool. Well, thank you again for being here. We really appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking to you. And hopefully we can connect again soon.

Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at npaddpodcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our Outsiders-only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes, and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more information on our show, our book recommendations, merch updates, and more.

visit our website at npaddpodcast.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe from wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressives save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount.

Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.