National Park After Dark - Bear Rodeo & Brotherly Love ft. Tooth & Claw Podcast: Bryce Canyon National Park

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

Today we welcome back Wes and Jeff from Tooth & Claw Podcast! There’s a reason we keep teaming up with them - get ready for a fun episode full of stories from their time working with black bears in Bryce and find out why the hell Jeff would want to be Gateway Arch National Park and mushrooms on a cheeseburger.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Lume Deodorant:  New customers GET $5 OFF a Lume Starter Pack with code NPAD.IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping.Liquid IV: Use code NPAD to get 20% off.Microdose Gummies: Use code NPAD to get free shipping and 30% off your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Hello everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We have the only guest we've ever had on our show three times. Tooth and Claw, Wes, and Jeff are with us today.

And we're going to talk about some bears. Hey, it's good to be back. So glad to be setting that, right? Yeah, seriously. That's an honor. Yeah. It really is. We haven't even had anybody else on a second time, let alone a third time.

Well, we've said this before, but I mean, if you look at our, like our reviews, reviews right now. Every other review is someone that came to us from your show. So we love this collaboration. We love talking to you guys. It's always been fun. So we don't have to stop at three. Let's keep this going, you know? We'll have you guys back. Get to double digit. People, well, we just got back from Alaska. And it was maybe the first day that we were kind of all together. And we were with our guide and we were doing our first hike as a group. And our guide was kind of going over like bear safety things. And she was kind of like quizzing us, kind of like, okay, so if you see a bear, like,

what do you do? If you see a brown bear, a black bear, whatever. And everyone was kind of like reserved. It's the first day. You know, we're like all kind of shy. And I literally was just like, all right, everyone listens to tooth and claw, right? And everyone's like, oh, yeah, okay. So he kind of broke the ice a little bit.

Yeah. And then everyone came out with the correct. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone knew. So you're doing, you're making waves for sure. Right. They gave Wes's answers.

not my answer. Hopefully. Yeah. Yes, definitely. Oh, that's great. So Alaska was fun though, huh? It was. It was great.

We only went to one national park. We went to Keenai Fjords. Cool. And we technically went twice because we did land base. We did a hike up by the glacier. And then we did a boat tour, a marine life boat tour, where we saw a lot of really cool wildlife. We saw different pods of orcas. We saw humpbacks, bubble net.

feeding. We, you know, puffins and steel or seaways. The orcas didn't go after you rudder? Sure didn't. No. We were kind of hoping, though, you know, it would be a fun story. We love that. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see many bears or any bears? No. We didn't see any. We, well, we smelt. We could smell. Oh, you smelled one. You smelled. All right. Yeah. Does that count? No, we were. No, absolutely not. Like we know we were in close proximity at some point. Yeah, that's cool.

We, uh, Kinae Fjords isn't like the best place to see them. I think you got to get pretty lucky to see one there. And then it's always, it's fascinating to me like talking to people from Alaska. Like a lot of people that I've talked to there that like have never seen a bear. And it's just because like it's so, it's so big and vast. And bears are really concentrated there in a lot of places. So it's like you either. live in a place where you see them every day or you live in a place where you hardly ever see them.

Right. And it's the vegetation is so thick that, I mean, they could have been on the trail five feet ahead of you and you just round the corner and they just happen to step off trail. You would never know. Right. It was a cool experience. We loved it. But we're glad to be back for a little bit of a chill day and we get to record with you guys. So yeah. Cool. Well, today we have stories from, well, you both have stories from Bryce Canyon National Parks. So Danielle and I went ahead and just researched a little bit about Bryce Canyon. We've actually never talked about Bryce Canyon on the podcast before. Nothing bad ever happens there. We're good guests for Bryce.

I've looked it up too. I've like look for stories in Bryce Canyon and it's hard to find. I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are. But I'm excited that you both have stories because we've never, never covered it before. And I've never even been. Cassie's been. Oh, really?

You need to put it on your list. It's small and it's like, it's, not on the way to much, so it's kind of out of your way generally, but it's so, it's such an amazing park. And it's nice, it's a park where like in a, in like a day, you can really get a good feel for Bryce. It's not like you, like, need to get out in the backcountry. Their back country's great, but like you can really get a good Bryce experience in just a day. Yeah. Good to know. Yeah, they have trails that you can just hike through like the Bryce Amphitheater with all the hoodoos. And you can do that in a day. And it's so pretty. It's a good winter park too.

It is. It's beautiful in the winter. Yeah, with all the snow. Yeah, the fall's great, too. I was there in the fall. It's also not a great park for seeing bears. It's not. Even though you both have bear stories. Yep, even though that's where we worked, it's not a great bear park.

Yeah. We never saw one, like, out in the wild, though. Yeah. It's interesting because I didn't even realize until we're doing this episode that there were bears, or are bears in the park. That's how most people are, I feel like, with Bryce. Yeah. We saw plenty in the wild, but none. that we hadn't caught.

Like, there were wild bears, but we could see it like. Or like we had like a GPS on. Right. Yeah, that's cheating a little bit. Right. Yeah. Right. Well, I guess going into the park, Bryce Canyon National Park is obviously a very popular

park to visit. They do have about 2.7 million visitors that go there every year. If you're not familiar with the park, it's located in southwestern Utah. And Bryce is known for having some of the most interesting geological. formations in the entire world. It's home to natural horseshoe-shaped amphitheaters along the eastern edge of the Poncegant Plateau, which is a massive plateau that rises to an elevation of 9,300 feet or 2,800 meters. Bryce is also known for their scenic vistas and is certified as a dark sky park because of the lack of light pollution and stargazing opportunities. Bryce was originally established as a national monument on June 8, 1923,

to preserve the unusual scenic beauty, scientific interest, and importance of the area. Following that one day shy of a year later, on June 7, 1924, it was granted additional protections when it was finally designated as a national park. Undoubtedly, for Bryce, one of the most iconic sections of the park is the Bryce Amphitheater, which is home to the greatest concentration of a regular rock spires on the entire planet, which is what we know as the hoodoos in the park. And for people who maybe aren't familiar with that, hoodoos are tall and skinny shafts of rock that protrude from the bottom of arid basins.

And in Bryce, these pillars of limestone, siltstone, dolomite, and sandstone stand between five and 150 feet tall. They're beautiful. They are. I mean, looking at them behind you, Cassie has her background as hoos. Yeah. They are. And honestly, like, the whole Poncant plateau has those kind of formations. So if you were visiting Bryce and you, like, wanted a little bit more of a wilderness experience,

if you just go a little bit further west and take the Tropic Reservoir Road down the Poncegant, there's other spots on that plateau where you'll have, like, those kind of spires mingled with pine forest. And it's just like, it's such a beautiful part of the country. And then also a really great thing, I'm just like really pitching Bryce here. But because it is so high, it's not as hot as some of the other desert parks in Utah. So in the summer, that's really nice. Like, where me and Jeff camped, we, like, hardly ever got above 80 degrees. And it was just, like, a really nice temperature all summer.

And it's, that's very different from, like, Moab arches, that kind of part of Utah. It is really cold, though, too. So if we are planning on visiting in the winter, it's really cold. I'd say, too, like, it might be my favorite, like, entrance into a park before you get to the park. Why is that? So there's, like, the road you go through a state park before. you get to the National Park, which is red rock. And then there's two red rock like arches that are man-made,

but the road goes through them. So it's not, and it's not like cement. It's like red rock like sandstone that they just like carved a tunnel through. Oh, so they're not natural archways, but they're actual rock. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Uh-huh.

Like it was like probably going to eventually be an arch and they just sped up the process. I just put it, rode through it. Like, we can't wait. That's so funny, I've been there, and I don't remember that. Really? Yeah. It depends on the way that you access the park.

Okay. You go through one, and you're like, whoa, that was really cool that they did that. And then, like, 30 seconds later, there's a second one. Yeah. You don't even see coming, so. It's cool. And that's a great place to camp, too, if you can't find camping in the park. Like, the Red Rocks area has a bunch of campsites.

And, yeah, I agree with Jeff. It's, like, the whole area. around there is beautiful. It's not just Bryce. Getting all the tidbits for visiting Bryce. Yeah, we live there. Yeah, yeah. Hot takes, yeah. And I had some fun facts that I wrote down about hoodoos because I thought that they were interesting because the war.

It's a good name, isn't it? Well, that's what I wrote about because the name originates from Africa. And they were referring to something that brings bad luck or something that is believed to embody magical powers. So I thought it was really interesting that there's like almost an evil. connotation with that. Yeah. Well, prior to this also, the given name to these hoodoos were known as

legend people from the native Paiute people. And Paiutes inhabited this area for hundreds of years before European settlers arrived. And they believed that these rock formations were people who were turned into stone by coyote, who is a trickster spirit. Oh, no way. As a punishment for bad deeds.

Huh. So you're turned to stone. It's like Hocus Pope. Doesn't that happen in hocus pocus? I feel like it does. It happens in a lot of things. The witches like turn into stone and they're like. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And they like turn into dust and float away when the sunlight comes out. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. But the hoodos didn't like turn to dust.

It's funny like thinking about that like the word has these African origins that have like a really interesting connotation to them. And then like the indigenous people had this really cool legend for the rock. And now when people show up there just like, oh, it looks like a bunch of dicks, you know. We've lost. We've lost our way. That's so true, though, because I can remember, like, my friend taking pictures in the park

and be like, this one looks like a dick and, like, taking a photo with it. Without a doubt. I mean, Goblin Valley, even the indigenous people had to. They knew. If they had cameras, they would have the same. photos that we do. I like that it was a coyote that turned them to stay. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a really cool. That's some cool mythology. I've never heard that one. So I really like that. Yeah. It's on the National Park Service website, but they say that they have on the park website that they don't write out the full oral story and respect for the native piutes. That's cool.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. But it also means I don't know the full story. Yeah. But I think it's really cool to know that for next. time you're walking around. Yeah, for sure. Just a lot of people that, they used to be people that you're walking by. Yeah, right. All turn to stone. 150 foot people. Yeah, giants.

Giants walked Bryce Canyon. Well, these, these mystical hoodoos extend 12 miles long, three miles wide, and 800 feet deep within this amphitheater. The park also, we talked about a little bit before, it provides several trail opportunities to hike within the Valley of hoodoo's, including the most important, the most popular hike, which is the Queens slash Navajo combination loop that has open views of the hoodoos. It has iconic switchbacks and towering canyon walls that you walk through. And it is a trail that's about 2.9 miles or 4.6 kilometers. And it's only an elevation gain of 625 feet or 191 meters. So it's a relatively easier hike within a really beautiful part of the park. Yeah. I feel like this is the hike that is on Instagram. Everybody's

Instagram real of the, like I can just picture the switchbacks. Yeah. Being in between the hoodoes. Like I feel like it's an iconic. Yeah. There's like a couple really cool trees like right in the yeah. Some big ponderosa that are growing up through the middle of it. So it's, it is beautiful. I don't blame people for taking that photo and posting it because it is like it's gorgeous. When you're hiking down that trail, you're like, oh man, this is unlike anything I've done. There's a reason people conquergate to that area. Yeah, for sure. True.

Well, a little bit about Bryce's climate as well as the flora and fauna found within the park. Bryce does have an arid climate, meaning it's dry with little precipitation. And the plateau in the park is somewhat cooler and wetter as a result of the elevation, kind of what you are talking about camping up there. It's like nice and cool. And it kind of gives it this appearance of a green island surrounded by a big red desert. And a wide variety of trees and flowers can grow here due to higher rainfall and snowfall. The pink cliffs in the park, however, are mostly bare of any vegetation.

The big range of elevation within the park, which numbers in the thousands of feet, results in three distinct ecosystems, which in turn have created high biodiversity. So flora and fauna have adapted over time to thrive in these different areas. And although some plants and animals can be found throughout several of them, others thrive within particular ones. Aspins, Douglas firs, ponderosa pines, and Rocky Mountain junipers are common throughout the area, along with a variety of different flowering plants. So anytime I look up Bryce, I do see obviously the hoodoos and iconic arches and things like that, but there's also tons of wildflowers. And these wildflowers primarily grow in meadows or along

trail sides, and many of them rely on insects like bees or butterflies for pollination, just like the trees have a mutualistic relationship with several species of birds in the park for seed dispersal. And speaking of birds, this is a big birding park, which I'm sure you are very well aware of West. There's over 175 species that have been identified within park boundaries, and they're mostly visible throughout May to October, making birding one of the most popular activities for visitors. And the species, obviously over 175 of them, there's a ton, but there's a big variety of eagles, owls, jays, and swallows, along with the endangered California Condor, which is the largest land bird in North America with a wingspan of up to 10 feet.

And I saw them when I was in Zion, which was really, really cool. I caught a fleeting glimpse of one in Bryce, but that's my only time I've ever seen them. It's not, I wouldn't say it's like a park, should go to expecting to see California condors. And honestly, like, I feel like it was a lost opportunity that I got into birding after I was working in Bryce. And then I read about how good of birding it is. So I didn't do much birding while I was there. But we did see a lot of cool birds for sure. Speaking of Bert, just a total sidetrack, the Merlin app that you recommended. Yeah. First of all, it's addicting. And second of all, so many, I mean, I posted something like on my my personal page story like once because I moved to a new area and I wanted to see like what birds

were around and everyone was like Wes coming in hot with the recommendation like I'm not even kidding dozens and dozens people like all of a sudden are amateur birders because you recommended that app. That's great. Yeah, it's a fun app. If you haven't heard of it, it's like I always describe it as Shazam for birds because you just like can click the sound ID while there's birds chirping and it'll tell you what birds are the most likely chirpers. When you're doing your tours, West, do you, like, blatantly open the app, or do you really sneakily, like, check it and be like, oh, like, I know this one and pretend that you just know everything?

A little bit of both. There's been a couple times where I, like, identify a bird by hearing it, and then I'll, like, look at my app and be just, like, double check myself and be like, yep, that is what it was. Uh-huh. That's right. But then there's been times where I have no idea and I'm like, I'm going to ask Merlin, because the people I guide are birders, so they have all used it too. So they generally like understand how it works.

We've used it on some of our trips too. Danielle's taking it out and we've been like, what bird is that? Yeah. And taking it out and used it. It's also really cool because I like how it not only IDs them, but then it'll go further of like what type of vocalization they're making. So you have a better context. of like are they mad?

Are they like, is it a territorial thing? Is it a mating thing? It's really interesting. It is. And here we all are like as adults into birds. Getting into birding. Yeah. Natural progression.

Yeah. I feel like we like jumped like 30 or like you're supposed to do it like when you retire and we're like 30 years ahead of schedule. Yeah. We are. Yeah. Jump start. I feel like our generation has like learned that old people have it right.

Like they've been doing the cool stuff all. And now we're like, oh, yeah, birding. It's like, wait, why do I need to wait until I'm like six? Fly fishing, birding, yep. I will say I haven't made bread yet. That was like a big thing during COVID, like making sourdough bread. Sooner later, you'll get there. Yeah, you're on your way.

Maybe one day. We could hope. But anyway, okay, so most of the animals within the park, mammals, reptiles, avians, and insects are actually not endemic, meaning they can be found in most other places throughout North America. And these include basin rattlesnakes, porcupines, big horn sheep, tiger salamanders, coyotes, stellar jays, mountain lions,

there's prong horn. And of course, there are black bears. And that leads us to you guys because you did some work with black bears within Bryce Canyon. I want to throw in one more animal before we tell our stories. Okay. There's a lot of horny toads. Yeah, horn lizards.

And they're really cool horn lizards. Are they not called hornedotes? Horny Toads is like a name that they were called a long time ago, and kids still sometimes call them. Horn lizards. Well, I'm pretty much. Yeah, it's all right. But they're really, they're really cool because they're like the easiest lizard in the world to catch if you see one too.

They just like. Are they slow? They're just flat and they don't go very fast, yeah. Their whole defense is just to like not move and hope you don't see them. Oh, interesting. Yeah, they're a cool lizard. And they look really grouchy. This is weird, but I thought for a half a second, you were going to say penguins because your background is penguins.

And I was saying, where's this going? I choose a better background. I just like penguins. It's an interesting choice, but I like it. Yeah. All right. Well, so for Black Bears, though, yeah, me and Wes have like a ton of experience with that. So maybe, Wes, do you want to kind of like tell everyone why we were working with Black Bears where there's not a lot of black bears where there's not a lot of Black Bear?

Bears? Yeah, so I had been working with polar bears and my mentor, Tom Smith, and I had gone to a wildlife conference in Bryce. It just happened to be in Bryce. And their biologist approached Tom, and I was his main master's student at the time. And the biologist said, hey, we're having some issues with our black bears. And she proceeded to talk about how black bears had been breaking into people's tents, had been engaging in like a higher than average amount of conflict. And pretty much said, we want to figure out why this is happening. We want to figure out how we can make it better. And so Tom talked to me and he said, hey, like, I know you've been on polar bears mostly, but would you want to take on this Black Bear project too? And I like a Black Bear project

in Bryce during the summer and polar bear projects in the winter sounded like my dream life. And it was. So I was like, yeah, of course. And so then we went through this process of trying to hire a tech. And we had someone hired and he backed out like two weeks before we you're supposed to start. And so I called Jeff and I said, hey, do you want a job helping me? And he like said yes, thankfully. And so me and Jeff got to spend that entire summer. This was 2014 in the park, living in the park, setting traps for black bears. And then Jeff got to help with den visits and stuff afterwards too. You should explain the traps too because I feel like people hear trap and it's like bad. Yeah. The idea though behind the whole thing was that we wanted to figure out what kind of

resources these bears were using in the park, how many bears were in the park, and what they could do to their backcountry campsites specifically to make them safer for visitors, so that they would be less attractive to bears and safer for visitors as a result. And so what me and Jeff did is I talked to another guy who had worked with trapping bears, and he gave us a bunch of traps. And these traps are essentially two big 55-gallon drums that are welded together. There's a trap door on it that if the bear pulls on like a little bag of goodies in the trap of like really tempting food, the trap door will fall on the other end. And so the bears then trapped in this trap. And luckily, because these are smaller black bears, we didn't need huge traps. So all of these traps, me and Jeff could move with just the two

of us. And we had like 20 something traps that we spread throughout the Poncegonne plateau. So we actually weren't trapping in the park, but we were confident because you explained this, Danielle, that it's kind of like an island ecosystem where it's like you have desert everywhere and then there's this really good pine forest on the ponsagont. So we were pretty confident that the bears that lived there spent time on the entire plateau. So we knew that bears that we trapped would invariably go into the park. Cassie and Danielle, what's like a bag of goodies that would be most likely to trap you if you just saw one hanging? What would you pull? Oh, I saw one to be trapped by. Hmm. I would say just as of recently, I don't know what it is.

I have not had this snack in like over a decade. And now I just, I go through bags since we've been in Alaska, goldfish. You have been on a goldfish kick. I don't know what is happening to me. But I think for right now if I was to get into a trap, it would be goldfish. I don't do it. It would probably work on bears. Mine's dark chocolate.

Okay. Dark chocolate. Throw dark chocolate and some wine up in a tree. and like hang it. You'll pull on. Oh, that's for me. Yeah. So that was like our bags had just like a combination of different things we thought would be especially enticing to the bears.

But then in the back of the trap, we had a hunk of like really, really rotten meat. And this was, I've talked to a lot of bear trappers since and they were like, wow, you guys really went hard. You don't need it to be that rotten. But we would we would get like pig and horse meat from this processing plant. We'd put it in a sealed 50 gallon drum and we'd leave it in the sun. for weeks. And so when you would open it up and like trigger warning to anyone that, you know, can't hear this kind of stuff, when you'd open it up, it would just be like full of maggots and it would just be a soup. And then I would have to like Jeff would pull it out with a like a pitchfork and

throw it on a board for me. And then I would have to cut it into slices and we'd throw that into the back of the traps. And if you literally got a drop of this stuff on you, you would have to change your clothes because you would just stink like the most rancid terrible meat ever. It was awful. Terrible. It did see, it does seem like you want the extra mile. Yeah, and that was all for scent dispersion. Like this was so nasty that the bears usually wouldn't even eat the meat. They would just pull on that trigger bag. But that would get the scent like miles away.

And part of it is like there's just not a lot of bears out there. So like we had to go pretty hard. You need the scent to travel further type of thing. Yeah. The bags we used for when they were in the traps too. Like I feel like we had one or two bears go in the trap and didn't take the bag. And we just started, like, throwing what we were eating into the bags. And it's, like, way more enticing for them.

Yeah. They're like, this is disgusting. And people, they're like, we don't want gummy bag. Well, at first we just had gumballs. Yeah, because the trapper we had talked to said they just need the visual cue. And so we had, like, gumballs and a few other things. And I do know people out there, their alarm bells are probably going off and thinking, like, oh, we shouldn't be giving bears human food.

And the thing about this that's a bit different is there's no context. to this. Like the bear isn't invading a campsite and getting food as a result. It's going into a trap that's like set in a wild area and that's where it's finding this food. And so this isn't a bear that's learning a lesson. It's not learning like, oh, if I, you know, break into a cabin, I get rewarded with these gumballs and licorice or whatever. It's like, if I go on a trap, I get that. And to be honest, teaching bears that like research traps are where they might get a little reward isn't the worst thing in the world because it makes them a little bit easier to trap for research. searchers. And then they get a really negative interaction too. So generally that negative of being trapped and then like sedated and collared outweighs the positive of getting like a small reward from some human food. So anyways, that's my explanation. It's like I'm never eating a gumball again. Yeah, exactly. And some bears do get kind of trap happy. Well, they'll come back repeatedly. But most after you've trapped them once, they're like, okay, that's enough. I never want to do that again. Yeah. So we we had like 20-something these traps, we'd spread them out in two big trap lines. And then each morning me and Jeff would go out

on ATVs and we'd split and we'd each check a trap line. And we'd meet up and if we had any bears, we would go in and sedate the bear and then we would collar it with the GPS collar. And then we were tracking them to see where they're spending their most time, what kind of resources they were accessing. And then we used all that information. And I hiked into each of the backcountry campsites in Bryce and evaluated them for all the different things that might be. And I was, might be enticing to bears. And then I compared that against the information that we got from the callers. And I wrote a big long report for the park on every single campsite what they could do to make them less enticing to bears. And they did implement all the changes that we told them to

implement. So it was a really good project with some like real world kind of outcomes. What were you finding in the campsites? The main thing that we wanted, that we showed, and this is like a lot of this was stuff that we suspected and seems like pretty like you would expect the bears would be looking for these things, but we had to prove it. The main thing was that a lot of these campsites were placed next to water because it's a water limited place where people that are camping want to be close to like a creek or like a water trough or something. And that's what the bears need that too. And so like that was the main thing that we thought was putting people in conflict with bears at these sites as they were right by water. And then we also showed that they were using the trailways. So the further

that you could put a campsite off of the trail, the better, because the bears were using those trails to navigate throughout the park as well. So those were two of the things we found. Manzanita bushes were really appealing to bears, like groves of oak trees were appealing to them. There's a number of things that we told them to avoid, but I think the number one thing would be proximity to water. So have they since changed that? Have they moved the campsites? They have. Yeah, the ones, there was like, there was 19 campsites and there was like three or four that I said were high risk and that they should make some like immediate changes to and they did make those changes and I haven't heard of any conflicts there for a while so I do think it's helped that's awesome yeah it's it was a really good

project and like Jeff was saying earlier like a lot of people didn't even know if there was bears on the plateau and so a big part of our work too was just showing that there there is a population there and we guessed probably around 30 bears which is a small population but they're definitely It's a kind of a small area up there too though, right? It is. Yeah. So having 30 bears. Yeah. Imagine being that lady who was camping where like the bear opened her tent and slapped her in the face if she didn't even like think there was bears. Yeah. And then people are like there's no bears there. You're like, well, I'm pretty sure they're actually. Actually. This bear like slapped a lady in the face, but like somehow didn't do like any damage. Yeah. Where was that? Like any claw? That was in one of these

backcountry campsites. That was the main thing that prompted the study is when that happened, they were like, we got to do something about this. Maybe it like backhanded. Oh my God. It was funny too because they were like, oh, she reported it as a 300 pound bear. And so they were actually going to trap and kill that bear because that was like a behavior that they couldn't tolerate. And so they trapped a bear in that area like right after. And it was like an 80 pound bear. and because it didn't fit her description, they didn't euthanize it. And everyone involved in that trapping knew that it was that bear. But because she described it as a 300-pound bear, they didn't have to kill it, which was great.

Because it was a young bear and it was still just figuring things out. And we caught that bear not long after, too. Interesting. Yeah. She was okay. She just a little shi-up. Exactly. Yeah, there's a small slap.

Put her in place. Yeah. Who knows what she said to the bear? Yeah. She might have deserted. We don't know the whole story. Yeah. We don't know the bear's side.

We asked him and he didn't tell us. Yeah, you met him. Uh-huh. Yeah. A couple times. Seemed like a good guy. Yeah. It was a great project though and it was really fun that I got to pull Jeff into my world and we got to work together on it.

And yeah, it's a beautiful, amazing place to do that kind of work. And we got to pretty much camp the whole summer. So it was fun. Girl, winter is so last season. And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress.

Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session.

And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L. Every year after, The Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Can I ask, Jeff, did you have any sort of like prior experience as a tech before this?

No. No? No. Okay. Yeah. Like, I didn't have any experience with wildlife or biology, really. So like, it's funny. People ask me sometimes, like, how did you get such a cool job as a field tech?

I'm like, well, like my brother asked me to do it. You lucked out. That's cool. Yeah. No, this is awesome. Well, and like, West didn't really have experience. doing what we were doing either. So at first we were kind of just figuring it out as we went.

Yeah, this is my first trapping job. Because we had, like, one guy come out to help us for, like, the first two weeks, and we didn't trap any bears. And then, like, as soon as he left, we trapped a bear. And we're like, I guess we've got to figure out how to drug this thing now. And, like, well, like, West Noob. Like, it was our first time doing it together. I did, like, a four-day course on wildlife immobilizations.

What grade do I get as a field tech, West? You were great. You were an amazing field tech. I didn't cut the stinky meat. I made you do that. You wouldn't cut the meat and you would get pretty hangary with me most days. But aside from that, it was great. It was really fun too, like a really weird memory that I have of that.

And this is totally a tangent. The World Cup was going on. And so me and Jeff would like do our trap checks in the morning. And then we'd go to like a lodge right outside of Bryce. where they had all these visitors from around the world, and all of us would watch the World Cup together. And it was just really fun, like, doing the wildlife work and then going and watching World Cup

with all these people from all over the world. It was just a really, like, great summer. We just had a blast the whole summer. That's really cool. What an experience. Family bonding in its finest. Yeah, whenever we caught a bear, we'd go to, like, the nicer restaurant in town,

which was still like a dive. Celebrate. Yeah, and celebrate catching a bear. Yeah, we'd get a piece of pie. It's some good pie. I guess before, I know we're like derailing, but like how'd your mom feel about that? Like her two of her sons, like, hey, we're going to go live and Bryce and trap bears together. She was okay with it.

I think, you know, she came out a couple times. She did. She's from, I mean, she didn't grow up in Montana, but she's lived in Montana now for our whole lives. And she understands the difference between a grizzly bear and a black bear. So I think had we been trapping grizzly, she would have been pretty worried. but they're black bears. So I think she kind of understood that we knew what we were doing. Cool.

I think the, so we have a couple of stories that, like, freaked her out a little bit. Yeah. We'll tell them. So me and Wes both have one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So Wes explained, like, the first part of the project.

How many colors did we end up getting on bears that first summer was? I believe 17. 17? Okay. So then like bears fluctuate a lot in weight and like size because they hibernate so they have to put on a lot of weight. And when you have a GPS collar on the bear, you're supposed to go check it in the winter and just make sure like everything's working right. It's not too tight for it now. On a black bear.

Can't do that with Chris. While they're hibernating. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of projects do it. Some don't. But like it's a really good opportunity to have your bear like right where you know it's like right backed into this little place where you can actually. access it. Yeah. So like it's West, like I'm kind of done with my part of it, but then West has to go to

these dens and like check on the bears. So he'll invite me to like go do all these den things. And of course I always say yes because it sounds cool. And like we'd go to dens and find black bears and like Wes would kind of like be able to like halfway go in the den with like his legs poking out. And then he had a six foot long pole that has sedatives in the the end of it. Yeah, in a syringe. That he uses to jab the bear. And the bear, like, typically just backs itself into a corner of the den and West can jab it. And then we wait for it to fall asleep and then, like, weigh it and take measurements.

And adjust its collar if necessary. Yeah. So are the bears in some sort of, because you're describing backing a big predator. Like, obviously into a corner in a very confined space. Yeah. So they're not defensive at all. Are they in like a kind of like half awake, half asleep sort of like situation? Are they just fully away? It really depends on like the bear and the winter and everything.

Like our first summer or our first summer, our first winter that we did it. And Jeff could talk about this more too if you wanted. But like it was a really warm winter. And we had a really hard time. We didn't get any bears that winter because every time we tried to approach a den, it would just like come running out. They'd hear it. They were already awake.

They'd hear us coming and they'd just bust out. And on a really cold winter, they're all like tucked in. and asleep. But they do wake up. And like when they hear you coming into their den, they wake up. And they're really efficient hibernators. So unlike like a ground squirrel or some of these other hibernators that take days, if not weeks to fully come out of hibernation, a bear can come out of hibernation really quickly. And so they hear you coming and they start coming out of it. So a lot of times we'd have bears that were somewhat groggy, but then sometimes they'd be fully awake. And they can be a little defensive when they're fully awake. Yeah. No, there's one time we are trying to go.

super quiet and then Wes farted so loud. That's not true. The bear had already run out. Work the bear right up. That's my story. So we're going to this den and like National Geographic had like caught wind of what we're doing a bit and decided like they wanted to come as well and like photograph it. So it's this, it's kind of like hard too because Wes would have a GPS point or like he

He got GPS updates every four hours. So then, like, once it comes winter, that last point that you got, like, notification for, that's, like, where its den is at. And sometimes you get lucky and you have a bunch of points on top of each other. But sometimes you just have, like, one. And so that bear could be anywhere within, like, where it could get in four hours to get inside the den. Because if the den is deep enough, you won't get points from inside the den. So it can be really exact, or it can be, like, you have to come.

kind of find it. And then it'd be like a mile. So like in our heads it never seemed that bad. And then we get out there. Straight up. And there's no trails or anything. And there's like a mountain, you know. Waste deep snow.

So for this one, like the guy who we met with who we really like, I don't know, should I say his name? Sure. Corey Arnold. He came out and but he like was running pretty late. And then he had to like get all of his stuff. Camera gear. Yeah.

Set up. So we're like starting to worry about daylight a little bit. And then we're like hiking up this big, like really snowy mountain. And I remember him telling us like, hey, so there is a chance my heart could just stop. So if it stops, you just like pound on my chest. On your friends, scary. Like by the way, just so you know, small tidbit while we're hiking, my heart might not work. But that didn't come into play luckily.

That's not like a teaser for later. Okay. But so we finally, like, work our way to the den. And, like, every time up until this point, it'd been really obvious where the dens were. And all we could see was, like, snow and rock. And, like, just no openings or anything. And we're starting to get a little worried because, like, the sun's about to go down. So we're looking everywhere. And West, like, sees this little, like, kind of cave ledge thing up above. And he's, like, trying to kind of scamper up. And I'm, like, looking at his feet. And he's, like, on this hole where there's all these like branches and stuff and I'm like Wes I think you might be like standing on the den right now and he's like wait what and like looks down and it's just this giant tunnel going into the rock so like way different than anything we'd ever like seen before but bears will kind of like bring some branches and stuff at the entrances of their dens just to hide themselves yeah so like we knew well I don't know why do they do that was uh it's Honestly, like they tend to bring the branches in more to make it a more comfortable den experience for them. It's like building a nest. It's just like with any other animal where they'll build a nest to provide a little bit more of like a stable place to lay down and sleep. That's what a bear will do too. Oh, so they're not concealing the entrance intentionally. No, no, it's more to just bring them into the den and then stuff gets kind of strewn around as they're doing that. I mean, if you're going to lay down for weeks on end. It makes it smell. nice too. Yeah. That's always nice. Yeah. So, but we like both crouched down and it's just like this tunnel that like we see no end to. But we like pretty much know that the bear's in here because we've looked everywhere around and like we're right at the GPS point. So like it would have been scary to go in there like not knowing that. How deep are bear dens usually? Generally it's just deep enough

to where like Jeff was saying I could leave my legs hanging out and still jab the bear. So it's just like a cleft in some rock or something. But this one, I went back to this den later to measure it and it was 80 feet long. So this was some crazy weird abnormality in this sandstone. And it was natural. This wasn't something that had been drilled out by humans. The black bears don't dig their own dens. And it was rock too.

So somehow this bear had just found this perfect 80 foot long den. The best den. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Ritz Carlton. It truly was. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. So, like, in my mind, I was like, well, we can't go in there. And then Wes just like starts going in there. So, like, I follow behind him. And once we're, I don't know, 20 feet in, we just see these green eyes at the back of the den staring back at us. And I'm like starting to lose it a little bit. Because like we can even like kneel, like you have to like army crawl.

So I'm like, Wes, this is crazy. This is crazy. Like, holy shit. And he just goes, Jeff, shut up. Because it was freaking me out. And then I go, you're so brave. I literally said that. That's such a nice compliment, honestly.

You're so nice. In a really high anxiety situation. It's a lot on my shoulders because I know, okay, we've we've hiked all the way up here. We did all this prep to get here. This bear is looking a little big for its collar. We have a photographer with us. It's all this stuff. And so for me, getting that bear sedated was very,

important, you know, and I agree with Jeff. It was very scary to look down there and think, I got to crawl 80 feet up to this bear and hope that it doesn't be, like, really defensive in its den. But you got to at least get up there and see if it's defensive. So that's what we're doing. Yeah, do you want to tell like what when, because like through my mind is just chaos. Yeah. Like we're going to get attacked by this bear. But Wes had like a much more like thought out approach to it. So what were you looking for? The scary thing for me was that generally the best place to put the needle in a bear is in its hip, for us at least. There are people that do this that prefer the shoulder, but for me, all my experience had been in the muscle and the hip. And you really want

to get them in a big mussely area because there are places where there's gaps. And if you get the drug in a gap in like a hollow area, it takes a lot longer to set in. And the shoulders have a big hollow area that's really hard to avoid, at least for me, where I was trained to mostly go for the hip. And so I had just a frontal view of this bear. And so I knew I was going to have to post a little bit him in the shoulder, but I extended that jab stick and just kind of set it next to him to see if he was going to react aggressively, because if they're really pissed, they'll grab it and shake it. And he didn't do that. And so then I just put it right on him and just slowly injected him. And he didn't really even register it. He was looking at me. He like woofed a little bit at me,

but didn't really register the drug, luckily. And so that made me feel a lot better because if he had a charge of us, this isn't a situation where you can use bear spray, where you really have any kind of out like any kind of tool to stop it. So really our plan was like if this bear runs at us, we're going to lay flat and hope that he runs over top of us. That was kind of the plan. And like last resort, I had bear spray and I'd just bear spray all in a contained environment. That would have been that would have been worse than like getting mold probably because it would just, I don't know, it would really antagonize the bear and it has nowhere to go. So plan A and plan B are very anxiety into saying. Yeah. I mean,

The only thing that is like it obviously has no comparison, but it reminds me of Cassie and I's veterinary technician days where we would have to sedate fractious cats for different, you know, surgical procedures. And you go for the apaxial muscle, you know, you go back there and it's like, okay, let's get this point because this cat's freaking the fuck out. And it's about to kill us all. Cats are scary. It's really scary and like having to jab it with like the DKT and just pray and then just

waiting to see if it like goes down and we are in a place we can run. And then we're not 10 pounds. You know, like and just the anxiety. I'm also not like cats freak me out just because they're so scrappy, especially in that environment. I love cats as long as they're not trying to kill me. If you have to DKT a cat, I don't like them. I'll just say that. It's all right. It's crazy like we're in a den with like a 300 pound black. back bear and it's like too scared of us to do anything and then like every cat that you bring in is just like this person doesn't intimidate me at all i'm gonna kill her let's go ready to throw down i know cats are so great just like west they're so bright when you're doing this den work

because for me i the first den that i did i did like it wasn't like i'd been able to watch other people do it i just had to rely on all this experience from people that i worked on they told me, you know, you can do this. Like, you can go into the den. It's not going to attack you. It just wants out. And so there's a lot of faith in your, like, your predecessors. There's a lot of like people telling you, I've never heard of someone being mauled in a black bear den. So you're just repeating that in your head as you're crawling like 80 feet in. And you're like, this is the exception. This is the exception. I'm going to get mauled. I'm going to get mauled. And then your little brother is saying, don't do this. Don't do this. So it is really scary. This was like, I, I didn't

sleep after this night because my adrenaline was just pumping so hard. It's like it's the scariest thing I've ever like willingly gotten myself to do. Yeah. Well, I will say a lot of people do a lot of crazy things for a picture and you got the best picture. You got a national geographic photo out of one of the craziest things. Yeah, it's a great photo. Was the photographer in the den with you?

Yeah. Yeah. So me and Wes backed all the way out. And then Wes went back in with the guy from National Geographic. Okay, so the bear was sedated when? Well, it's looking right at it. So, yeah, that's. Yeah, I'm looking at the picture in it.

You know, I can get a, here, I'll tell it like up until where this Jeff comes back in the story. But I went back in with Corey and he was right behind me and the bear had started to move out. So I was pretty confident at this point that I had gotten the bear in that hollow because the drug wasn't taking effect at all. and the bear seemed to be waking up, not falling asleep. And so I was kind of backing up at the same rate as the bear. And the drugs that we use, we use ketamine and xylazine. So they have a really high therapeutic index where you can redose if you need to, especially with a bear with such a big, robust animal.

I was cleared to give it a second dose if I needed. And so I was crawling out and the bear was moving out. And as I came out of the den, I told Jeff and my other tech that was there, I said, hey, you guys keep that bear in that den. Like do whatever you need to I handed like Jeff a snow shovel and said do whatever you need to keep that bear in the den or no it was Jordan that I handed the snow shovel and then I went and loaded up a hand syringe of the drug Well first you told me to but I had never like filled the drug before. Oh yeah I said Jeff load up a hand syringe and then he was like and I think like so we couldn't see the bear before we drugged it and like on average our bears were like 200 pounds so I think we might have made the dose for like a 200 pound bear. Yeah. And then once we got in there, it ended up being 300 pounds.

I don't know. I might be making that up. Yeah, I think I underdosed it a little, but I think we guessed it was around 250. But like I knew how to make a dose, but I hadn't ever done it. So I feel like I was like those military like bomb disarmers where like they know how to do it. But then like once I was in a high pressure situation, I just totally failed. You forget everything. I would have blown up.

Yeah. So then like the bears come. coming out of the den and like this other tech Jordan's like trying to keep it in with like backpacks in a shovel and it just doesn't care because what happened too is like it was really afraid of us that's why it stayed in the back of the den but then once these drugs start kicking in it starts losing that fear that it had before because it's like drugged right yeah so it's not thinking as much anymore well I think a big part of it too is just that we weren't in the den anymore So the bear just like is like, I'm out of here because I'm still hearing them.

But I've got. But he's moving really slow. It was still waking up. Still waking up from hibernation. And the drug was starting to kick in. But I don't think it really, it doesn't really like stop it from being afraid. But yeah, it was wanting to get out. And then we really didn't want to let this bear get out because it was on a really steep

embankment. And its collar was looking a little tight. So we did really want to get a new collar on it. So the last thing I wanted was for it to get out for the drug to kick. in as it was like running away and for it to tumble down a cliffside or something like that. So as I'm like trying to make the drug, Wes ends up like grabbing one of its legs and getting dragged a little bit. And then he like got up and like grabbed its collar and called me over and was like, Jeff, you take the bear. I'll make the drugs. And it's like, I do what now? And it's just like

crazy because like I've seen like how fast they can like bite and like how much of a predator they are. the situation was different because it did have drugs in it and it was like not you know it didn't know too much what was going on imagine the confusion that this bear is experiencing like what it's just it's honestly just like trying to walk for that's like all it can think to do they don't often get tackled by other animals too so it's kind of like what's going on here so then like I'm holding the collar and like trying to like slow it down but it's like so much stronger than me so like it's just pulling me and I ended up like straddling it and just like pushing it down onto the ground like it's back lit.

What do you mean straddling it? Like I was like one leg on either side of the bear on top of my hand on the collar. You wrote a black bear. You were a rodeo. I guess so. Black bear rodeo. But then I would just so I could like get all my weight to like try to slow it down. And this was all because like I could tell the bear wasn't reacting to anything.

Otherwise, obviously, I would have never done any of that, right? It's like a last resort, yeah. But that was after I was there with the drug and we were injecting it, right? Yeah, because you guys were holding onto its legs, and then I came up and inject it, and all three of us straddled it. I never held its leg. Okay. Yeah.

It's just so funny to be that you traded drawing up a vial of drugs to instead handle a black bear. Like, I can't do this, let me straddle black bear. I like pushed it down a couple times, but it just like stood right back up and started walking. And I couldn't stop it. But like it walked straight into a tree and like didn't like realize to turn or something. Yeah. And it ended up just like falling asleep once it like met something that stopped. And that's when at that point all three of us were on it.

So it was walking with all three of us kind of like holding onto it. I had given it a second injection at that point. And then I think that drug kicked in and it passed out at the base of the tree. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that scenario. I was just like, what is going on over there? That photographer would probably like, I was going to say, I turned to the photographer and I was like, hey, it's not always a rodeo like this. And I was like, you definitely can't share all these photos before I get a look at them

because there's definitely, there's photos of like of us straddling it and like them pulling the legs out and stuff. and it's just not, yeah. Well, it's taken out of context, yeah, obviously. Yeah. Right. And this was all because the collar was too small too, right? I mean, honestly, like, had I known that it was going to be,

that the bear was going to come out of the den and it was going to be all of that, I never would have given it the injection to begin with because the collar, it was a little tight, but it would have been fine because they do lose a lot of weight as they come out of their den. Like, they're not going to be as big. This bear was at its biggest size at this point. So I think we would have left it, but the fact that, like, I had put drug in it and then it had come out, I was worried about it tumbling or something happening to it. So at that point, I wanted to make sure that the bear went down.

And that's why we gave it the second dose and that's why we tackled him. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. What an adventure. Yeah, it was a crazy one. Yeah, it was good. It was hard to get back in the den, too, but we managed it.

There's four of us. Yeah. To you, what do you do? We just dragged him. Yeah, it was hard. Okay. Oh, so you put him back in the den afterwards. Yeah, we tucked them back in.

Yeah. Oh, that was sweet. Yeah. And do you monitor while they wake back up or do you just? Typically, we do. Where he got an extra dose, it was going to take a while and it was really cold. So I actually left a blanket on top of him, which probably didn't help much, but it was kind of just like something extra. And he woke up and went right back in. And then I went and collected that blanket.

And it's like a fun little keepsake I have now. because all full of holes and covered in bear hair. But yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, what a grand adventure. Yeah, it was a crazy one. I think my other scariest moment working on that project was we had hired a state trapper to

help us. And he was great. Like he was such a cowboy. He had all these dogs that he would chase bears with. And the point is to like tree the bear and then we could do whatever we needed with that particular bear. So his dogs have been trained to like chase mountains. lines and bears. And we had this particular bear who was a female. She had a collar that we knew

fur-a-fact was getting pretty tight. And we really wanted to catch her. We'd put traps out. We weren't able to catch her. So we decided, okay, we'll pick up her track. We know, like, she had a collar that just put out a VHF signal. So we found close to where she was. We picked up her track and then we let the dogs out. And so I let the dogs out. Who let the dogs out? I'm the guy. Yeah. And so we were on muleback, and the thing about this dog thing is once the dogs are out, you are committed to following them until they tree this bear. So it can be like a one mile ride or it can be a 20 mile ride. You don't know how long you're going to be riding.

And I'm not a big writer. I'm not great at it. So I was really getting jostled. And luckily, it lasted about five miles, so it wasn't terrible. And the bear treed in this really great spot. And the idea then is like to get a dart in the bear and the bear will fall asleep on whatever branch it's on. And then someone climbs up the tree. They tie ropes around the bear and they lower the bear down with like a like throwing the rope over another branch and lowering it down.

So it's kind of like a tricky procedure, but it does work sometimes. Bear was in a perfect spot. We show up. She's just like on a low hanging branch. Clint, this trapper guy, he gets his like his pistol ready with the dart, walks up right under, fires the dart. and it just bounces off her and falls on the ground. And these darts have like a little charge in them that's supposed to go off. If it hits hard enough, the charge blows off and it shoots all this drug into the bear.

And if that doesn't happen, the drug doesn't enter the bear. So we knew that she had not been drugged and she climbed a little higher. And Clint had just gotten a cancer diagnosis and was starting treatment. And he wasn't feeling like climbing a big ponderosa pine and chasing a bear. And so he's, yeah. So he was like, West, do you want to climb this one? And I was wearing some like high top vans and was like, sure, whatever, I'll do it. And it's a really slippery ponderosa.

If you've ever climbed a ponderosa, they have a really waxy, slippery bark. And the branches were like a full west length apart. So I had to like grab the one atop and like hoist myself up. And the bear went a little higher. So I climbed up into the bottom branches and got his gun from him and fired a dart and hit her. And again, it bounces off. And so she climbs higher. And this whole time she would like turn around and growl at me.

And I'm having like bear spit fall on my face and she's growling. And there's all this bark flaking off. And I'm just climbing with like no ropes in this ponderosa in my vans and like feeling more and more uncomfortable as we go higher and higher. And the other thing too is you don't want to dart a bear when it's too high because if it does decide to not lay down in a good spot, it could slip out of the tree. And they can, they're pretty good at falling from a decent amount of, like a decent amount, but you don't want it to be too high.

So this, this happens two more times where the dart's not working. And Clint keeps thinking that he's fixing the gun. It's not working. And she gets to a point where she's about 40 feet up in this tree. And I'm like 30 feet. And I climb under and I say, you know what? Like, we're not doing this anymore. If she falls from here, I don't feel comfortable.

And I'm getting a little nervous too. And we're just exhausted. So I called it. And Clint agreed with me. And so I'm coming down out of this tree. And about 15 feet up, I slip and fall out. And I break my ankle at the base of the tree. And we had another guy with us who had left because this was taking so long and he had to leave.

So it's just me and Clint. And we're like five miles from any roads that we knew of at least. Or sorry, we're five miles from where the truck was. And we're about a mile from another road that would take a while to get to. So Clint says, listen, I'll hop on my, we try and get me on the mule and I can't even, I can't put any weight on it at all. And I'm like starting to almost pass out from the pain. And so Clint says, listen, I'll get on my mule while I ride back to the truck and I'll drive the truck to this road that's a mile away. I'll come back in and hopefully we can just kind of throw you on the back of the horse and you can ride a mile.

And so it's like, yeah, let's do that. So he leaves. And right after he leaves, I'm like, wait. There's still the bear. bear in a tree that's pissed off. All I have is the gun that doesn't work, and that's it. Like, we didn't have spray. We didn't have anything else. And I'm just laying under this tree like a hurt, wounded animal with like a really angry black bear in the tree. And so I start to get a little scared. I had gotten really complacent. I should have had spray. I should have had some other tool. And this bear starts coming

down. And whenever she would, I would grab pine cones and rocks and whatever was near me. And my foot's just propped up on a log and I'd just throw them at the tree and yell at her and it was working but she would come down further every time and I was like man sooner or later she's going to come down to the bottom and she's either going to come at me or she's going to take off and I was getting pretty nervous and right when she was starting to make her way further down one of his dogs that had become separated throughout this entire thing showed up and like ran at the tree and barked and stuff and and made her go way back up in the tree and then that dog sat and laid with me pretty much the rest of the time while Clint was coming back to help me out. So I felt a lot better at that point. But

it was, it was probably the only time in this entire project where I felt like I had let things go out of my control, where I'd felt like I didn't have a good plan B. And it was really, that was, it's one that sticks out for me because it was a really good lesson for me. And since then working with any bear species, I always make sure that I have some kind of plan B or deterrent or tool because it's a really it's a bad situation it's a bad feeling to have to know like oh i'm i'm at the mercy of this animal at this point and that's not a and alone yeah yeah totally having that dog show up was definitely dogs are dogs are the best yeah it was great yeah yeah oh my god a real like i've never that's so scary if a cat would have showed up if a cat would have showed up it probably would have

on the same, yep. Oh, my God. And so I just have a quick question. This is totally unrelated to the story. But I was just listening, I don't know what episode I was listening to of you guys. And you mentioned something about the presence of dogs and how, like, it's different depending if it's a grizzly or a black bear. What was that about? Just as I hike with my dogs, I'm not in grizzly country, obviously. But just I know a lot of our listeners are. And I think. think we have a lot of people who solo hike and they're always with their dogs. And I was just kind of interested in that. It was just such like a tidbit side note that you mentioned. And I just wanted, I guess, a little more information. It's, it, uh, like with both species with black bears and grizzlies, dogs can anti, they can antagonize them and make the situation worse. They can also make it better, especially with black bears where they can chase off a bear. But the thing, the thing to remember is I would say your chances of a black bear wanting to push anyway are almost zero. So like the

fact a dog still probably makes it worse is what I'm trying to say. Like a dog off leash makes the situation riskier almost always. But it's like from 0.01% to 0.02% right with black bears. But a lot of the ones that you read that are attacks there is a dog involved like the dog antagonizes the bear and then the bear comes in. With grizzly bears, it's actually like a good percentage of them. I can't, I can't say the percentage off the top of my head, but there was a paper where they looked at a worldwide perspective of brown bear or grizzly bear attacks. And it was something like 14% of those attacks involved a dog that had antagonized the bear. And the difference between those two species is a black bear. If you're in a forest, especially, it's got a great place to get away

because they use trees as escape terrain. They can just like run right up the tree. That's what they did with these dogs that we were chasing them with. But in a place where, like, say you corner a black bear with dogs and somewhere where there aren't trees, the bear will kill those dogs. And like, that's happened to our friend that was trapped, that was trapping with us. He's lost dogs to bears because the bear didn't have a good place to escape and it, it switches to this other option. With grizzly bears, they don't really climb trees. So what will, like, with people that chase grizzly bears with dogs, they just chase it until the bear finally, like, turns and decides to like face down their dogs and then they have to like collect their dogs quickly

because the bear will kill them right yeah so with your dogs like if you're out with your dog and it decides to chase a bear um with a black bear it's probably just going to climb a tree you're probably going to be fine i wouldn't really worry about it too much if you're in grizzly bear country i wouldn't recommend having a dog off leash because it can really turn a situation bad quickly moose is a really bad one with dogs too much moose will chase dogs as well yeah Those videos, remember? Like, it was last year a couple videos of dogsled teams. Oh, yeah.

I know you guys were talking about. Yeah, we didn't see any bears in Alaska, but we saw plenty of moose. Yeah, there's a lot of moose up there. We did. Yeah. I have seen bears in Alaska, though, just not on these trips. Yeah. Well, sooner later.

Well, thanks for sharing your experiences. I know we could go on forever, and our listeners would probably appreciate that. But we do have a couple of questions. for you. And some of them, so we were in Alaska around the campfire. And we were just kind of, it was towards the end of our trip and we're just kind of looking at like the upcoming week and what was going on with our schedule. And I was like, oh my gosh, we're like, we're recording with the guys soon at Tooth and Claw. And we had a couple of questions written down. And I was like, this is the perfect opportunity. So some of these questions are from our listeners. Oh, awesome. Arguably the better questions

are from. For sure. They came up with. Some funny stuff. Yeah. Yeah, ours are like very like, some of them are like very reformed, like the first one. It's like cut and dry. And then other ones that are like off the rails a little bit are definitely not, we can't take credit. All right. Well, I'm excited for all of them.

Okay. All right. Well, I guess we'll start with an easier one. If you're a national park, which one would you be and why? I put some thought into this. I decided Great Basin National Park. in Nevada. Why?

Mostly just because I don't want people all over me all the time. Yeah. And it's beautiful. A lot of my favorite animals live in Great Basin. It's got mountain lions. It's got rattlesnakes. It's got black bears. And it's just like a, I have a weird, like I, when I was doing Golden Eagle work,

I spent a lot of time out close to Great Basin and in the Great Basin, not the National Park, but just the Great Basin. And I really fell in love with that. I have a weird love for that part of the country that is very different from anywhere else. So that's kind of why I picked Great Basin. Interesting. Yeah, it's kind of like a park that you don't really think of much. I mean, I have never been, but I drove by Ian and I were driving the extraterrestrial highway and doing like alien things.

And yeah, we saw the signs for Great Basin. I'm like, oh my God, it's like right there. We should totally go. And we look at it. It's like 200 miles away. Yeah. It's not close to anything. Yeah, he's like, we're not going to do that.

Yeah, it's great, though. I love it there. All right, Jeff, that's yours. Great Basin's, like, lower on my list in national parks. But I'm sorry, I'm hating on your place. No, it's fine. That's why I picked it, so no one wants to be there with me. I picked the Gateway Arch in St. Louis.

Okay, interesting. Why? I would say, like, whenever I talk about National. Whenever people talk about national parks, that shouldn't be a national park, that's the first one. That's it. Number one, I put, I put, it's well balanced. There's not a lot there, but you can convince yourself it's cool. Well, you're going to see the main attraction if you go there.

Yeah, so that's guaranteed. You know, I think around me, like, there's not a ton going on, but you can convince yourself I'm cool if you try hard enough. I mean, that's a surprising and solid answer. Yeah. Unlike Wes wanting people, not wanting people walking on him, people can walk through me if they want. Perfect. Right. That's true.

You're an open door. I'm a closed door. Yeah. All right. Good answers. Good answers. Next question. Yeah.

Go ahead. If you could have one animal ability, what would it be? Jeff, you want to go first? I'd want to be able to swim like in orca. Like flip over boats, swim? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And like launch seals. like 30 feet in the air if I'm bored. But also just like, I don't know, I've always, I just think like being able to swim really fast and like deep in the ocean would be the best. Doesn't it kind of suck to like be able to swim that well but you still have to breathe air though? No, I want to, I don't want to be a fish.

All right. Okay. I want to like live on land and be able to swim well. Okay. I don't want to have to live in the water. Oh, I see. But you just want to swim like a park. It's the ability.

Right. Yeah. Okay. Like if I don't have to breathe air, then I can't live on land. Okay. I thought that. I thought about that. Yeah.

And then I can make a career as like an Olympic swimmer and be rich. Okay. A rich orca. I have a boring answer to this one, but it's my honest answer. So I'm going to give it. But it is boring. I would just want to be able to fly like a bird. I mean, I know that's like such a boring, like, oh, of course you would want to fly.

but like for me, when I see the natural world and I see like all the different abilities that animals have, that's the one that I'm most jealous of. Like I would love flying just seems so fun to me. And there's some birds that seem like they're genuinely having fun while they fly. Which bird would you choose? A hummingbird? No, I think I'd pick a raven. Oh, okay. Yeah, just because they, I think they have a nice mix between these like soaring birds and flying birds where they're like, they're not, like an eagle is so big that the little birds can pick all.

on it and stuff because they're so agile. But a raven, I think, just really hits this nice sweet spot. And they are one of the few birds that scientists have shown they think, like, enjoys flight. Like, they fly for fun. And they'll go do all these little tricks and stuff. So yeah, I know that's kind of a boring answer, but it was my honest one. So I'm giving it. I think that's a very valid ability. I think all of us have wanted to know how to fly at some point in our lives. Yeah, it sounds great. We've all jumped off our bed with like a sheet hoping we could make ourselves. I think my backup would be just hibernate through the winter. Like if I get hybridating through the winter, that'd be great too.

It's also a cool. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. All right. Next up is what is your favorite? It can be from a movie or a television series, but out of those, what is your favorite animal villain? I can go first on this one.

My favorite is Cher Khan from both the animated jungle book, the one that came out in like the late 60s, early 70s. And then also the live action jungle book that came out in the 90s. I don't know if any of you've seen that. It was with like, I want to say Bruce Lee's son is the main guy in it. And the guy, like Prince Wesley from Princess Bride is in it. And there's like a tiger villain in that that's really scary and like actually kills people.

So it's kind of fun. But the Cher Khan, like the animated tiger villain, he always just seems so cool. But then also like really, really scary. Like this is a, like if he gets Mowgli, he's going to eat him and kill him. It's not like, oh, he's got this weird kind of intricate plan. It's like, no, he wants to kill this kid and eat him. So I just really. Yeah, I just always really liked him and thought he was a cool villain.

He's a good pick. Who's a good pick? Wait, are you talking about, because there's like a new new. Yeah, I'm not talking about that one. Like that one's all the like CG animals and stuff. This one had like actor animals from the 90s. Okay. It's kind of a wild movie.

Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen it, but, and I also haven't, I didn't watch the new one all the way through either. I was kind of like indifferent about it. Disney like retread. It's just a cash grab by them. But this one in the, this one in the 90s I recommend. It's very 90s, but it's really, I really like it.

It's a good movie. Okay. Yeah. First one is a shout out that we asked you both a similar question on our podcast, but Danielle said the predator. No, this was that. I was like. I was like, that doesn't count, but I love talking about the predator, so we'll allow it.

Okay, it wasn't my favorite villain, though? It was like a favorite, wasn't it an attack? His favorite animal attack. Yeah, his favorite animal attack in a movie. Okay, well, I will say. I did say predator. My second one, okay, runner up just to redeem myself, because now I feel personally attacked. Okay.

The scene in Jurassic Park where the two T-Rex, are outside of the RV, and they're playing with that guy and thrown up. In the lost one. Yeah, not the original. Yeah, and they rip them in half. Okay. That's a good way. You're still picking a dinosaur, but we'll count a dinosaur.

Yeah. It was an animal. Yeah, it was. We'll count it. It's just not alive anymore. Yeah. All right. Anyway, go on.

I'm going with Scar. Oh, I knew you were going to pick Scar. From Lion King. No, I just think it's cool that his brother thought he was a hot shot and he killed him. for it. Yeah. I saw... I'm just kidding. I'm some sibling rivalry right now. I just think Scars...

Yeah. No, I would kill West. No, I'm just kidding. I just think Scar looks cool. I love, like... I like the voice actor, and I just really like Lion King as a whole. Yeah, it's a great movie. That came out, like, just at the right time for you, too. I feel like you were, like, the perfect age for Lion King.

Yeah. So were we. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I feel like that was like the Disney movie of like our generation. Our generation. Yeah. It was funny when you said that I was thinking of a meme I saw today that I know like memes don't really translate on podcasts all the time, but I'm still going to do it. It's like a, it's a drawing of like Timon and Pumba just walking. And it says, Simba, my uncle killed my father and is trying to kill me now. Timon and Pumba. Oh, wow. Have you tried just not fucking worrying about it? Which I thought was really funny actually. That is pretty funny. Yeah. That's actually so true. Yeah, they have a whole musical scene about it.

No big deal. Well, they don't know that though, but it is funny. Fair enough. Yeah. Kuna matata. That's right. All right. Next question.

Who is your favorite natural world hero? I think we both probably have the same one. Yeah, like I tried to think of it. Different answer, but would anyone say anyone besides Steve Irwin? He's got to be the goat, right? There's some out there. Well, Jane Goodall, I think of thinking it's. I have another one, too, that I think is right on par with Steve Irwin, which is David Attenborough.

Oh, yeah. Because you met him, too. No, I've never met him. But he's the person. Which is the one you met? I don't know. The guy you drove who does like. Oh, that was Bernard Herzog.

Werner-Hurzog. He does wildlife stuff, right? He did Grizzly Man, but he's just like a famous director. Yeah. Ah, okay. But David Atmero, for me, yeah, he's just, I don't know. I think, like, as a naturalist, he's kind of been the most. Like, he's not a biologist.

He's just a presenter and a naturalist, but he is, like, the voice of wildlife documentaries. And I grew up with his voice. Yeah. So both of those are people I grew up. I didn't, like, Jane Goodall, I didn't really learn about until I was older. So, like, I really think she's amazing, too. But she didn't have the same influence that both David and Steve had on me. And Jane, obviously, like, Jane Goodell.

it all paved the way for like so many people that didn't necessarily like women that didn't see themselves as like biologists and then they saw this person you know a woman doing it and like really open the door to a lot of women so I think her impact has almost been stronger for a lot of people but for me personally it was Steve and David yeah yeah I'm like I'm just not a reader like I'm a lazy learner so yeah that's why it's Steve yeah he was amazing he was so he was so charismatic too And animated. Yeah. Yeah.

He got you to really, like, his passion really translated well on TV. And I think, again, like, we were at that age where we were super impressionable as well. And it's like, oh, my, what is this guy, like, going off about, you know? And it's so cool. Like, why is this guy happy that snake just bit him on the face? Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So this next question, or these next couple questions are from our listeners. So the next one is, if you are a cheeseburger, what part of the cheeseburger? what part of the cheeseburger would you be? That's my favorite question. I'm that American cheese. Like for me, a good cheeseburger that's not it at all. For me, a good cheeseburger and like a good or a good grilled cheese will have American cheese.

Like that is the cheese for me on a burger or a grilled cheese. And I just think like the sponginess of it and the saltiness of it is what makes a good cheeseburger. So I'm the American cheese. Yeah. Okay. And I'm just sticking, you know, I'm sticking everything together. I'm that glue that's binding that burger together.

Yep. What was, Westlake bought American cheese from like a restaurant wholesale place where you had to buy a ton because it's like slightly better than the little one cheese. That's the thing. Like, I think people, they go and buy those craft singles and they're like, American cheese is trash. But if you get the good American cheese from like a deli, it tastes like a diner grilled cheese. I don't know. Yeah, don't get me started on American cheese.

How happy were you in the movie, the menu when he is like, Oh, it's so happy. You have to use American cheese. Yeah, he's making like the best. I loved that movie. Yeah, it's great. It's a good-looking burger. Yeah.

And he used American cheese. Yeah. Despite all the violence. Despite the violence. That burger looks so good. But yeah, that chef knew the recipe has to involve American cheese for a good burger. Well, solid. For mine, I was kind of in the same mindset.

set is when I did the Gateway Arch one. So I went with mushrooms and I said, because I'm not for everyone, but people who like me really like me. All right. Okay. All right. You're sticking with a theme. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you like mushrooms on your burger? I've, you know what? It's the stupidest thing in the world, but this is my literal thing that happened with me with mushrooms. I always thought they were gross. And I read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings movies. and like hobbits love mushrooms so much.

And I was like, I should try mushrooms again and give it like an open mind. And I tried them again and I started to like. Changed your life. Yep. Just because Hobbit's like, you were influenced by the Hobbit to like mushrooms. Yes. Mushrooms are really good though. They kind of soak up flavors, I think.

They're nice. Like they have like a lot of flavor in them. Yeah. From like what you're eating. And you could do, if you're a vegetarian, you could do a whole portobello burger. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I'm not one, but if I ever am, I could try. You could be a whole burger if you wanted. Yeah. That's true. All right. Our next question is, what anamorph would you be? Also from one of our listeners.

I didn't have one, Wes. You just go, I didn't really have an answer. Okay. I didn't either, actually, but I looked at all the covers today. And yeah, that's why I picked. There was one where a kid was turning into a mallard. And I was like, man, that's. the most boring animorph, but I was like, maybe that'd be a really good one to be.

Because no one, again, I'd know nothing about animorphs, but I imagine you don't want people to know you're an animorph. And if you're like suddenly turning into a giraffe in the middle of like Denver or something, people are going to be like, oh, that's an animorph. But if you turn into a mallard, no one's going to know. They're going to be like, oh, a mallard, I see him every day. So I'm picking my mallory. And like, it's nice to fly.

You can like just float on whatever water you want. Like it's nice floating on the water. Yeah, you're beautiful. You fly. Yeah. So I'm picking a mallard. Okay. Another interesting answer.

Yeah. Well. And Jeff doesn't have an answer. They all work. Yeah, I saw a cover of a guy turning into an owl. So if you guys pushed me, I would have just gone with that one. All right. All right.

Well, we're pushing you. So I guess it's an owl. Yeah. Is there once it turned into like a crocodile? They turn in all sorts of shit. Yeah. You can do whatever you want. You're an animorph.

Yeah, you can do whatever you want. Oh, yeah. I want to be an alligator. Okay. All right. That's a cool choice. I'm sure there is an alligator. And again, I also didn't, like I knew what animorphs were because I had an image of those covers in my mind.

But I didn't read them, so I'm not really sure what the context is. I think it was slightly before my time. Okay. Yeah, they were definitely during my time, but I don't think, I just never. I think the covers were too weird for me. I was like, no, I don't want to read that. Oh, my God. You're in, you're in luck because look at this.

Oh, shit, you can't see it. Oh, because I have my background. It's an alligator. There we go. Sweet. That's me. There you go. And it says, trust no one, dot, dot, dot.

It's like lizard people. Whenever I saw someone reading it and I saw the cover, I'd be like, why don't I? Like, I'd be like, that book's way too hard for me. I'm not getting involved. That looks complicated. Okay, this is another, I think this is the last question we have from our listeners, and then we have one last one ourselves. And I was kind of, I feel like I'm making it more complicated,

but it says if you could replace any actor with an animal in a movie, what actor would you replace with what animal and why? Yeah, I like my answer for this one. Okay. I went with the movie White Men Can't Jump. Okay. Where it's like a black basketball player and a white basketball player who play together. And I'm going to replace them both with a white rhino and a black rhino.

And just see, like, try to get those rhinos to jump because rhinos can't jump. Okay. Interesting. All right. There's the whole movie. I kind of went down a wormhole on this one. I really dislike Jared Leto. And so I, like, wanted to pick him. I was like, man, what movie can I get rid of Jared Leto?

And so I, like, was thinking of movies and I was like, I really wish he wasn't in Fight Club. But then his character gets, like, beaten up in Fight Club. And I don't want to watch an animal get beaten up. So I picked the movie Lord of War, which is kind of a fun Nicholas Cage movie. We're back on Nicholas Cage. Here we are again. He's great. All roads lead to Nicholas Cage.

He's like an arms dealer that operates outside of everything. He's like an illegal arms dealer. And it's a really fun movie. But his little brother is played by Jared Leto. And he ends up, spoiler alert, getting like blown up. But I decided to replace him with the golden retriever because I feel like the golden retriever, A, would be a better actor. B would be really sad when he blows up and you would feel like this kind of kinship for him. So that was my pick.

Yeah. And just to confirm, Jared Leto, is he the one, have you seen Dallas Byers Club? Yes. He's in that, right? He won an Oscar for that, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Okay. I just want to make sure. Yeah. When you think of like the Joker, you think of him. No, that's definitely not who I think of. I think of, I am really actually excited to see the new one that's coming out. Like the part two of that. Which one?

What's his name? The new joke. The new one. Oh, the new Batman movie? No, the new, with Joaquin Phoenix and Lady Gaga. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. It's like a musical, right?

Yeah. And I usually hate musicals, but anything that Lady Gaga does, I will follow. Yeah, I think it'll be good. Yeah, I like it too. Did you like the Star is born, the new one? I did, but I also never saw any of the other. I didn't see the other stars born, like the original. I didn't know.

But I liked it. Yeah, it was really good. But, okay, anyway, last question. Well, I ended on a high note. Perfect. What's the happiest animal news story you've seen recently? Yeah. So I be honest, there hasn't been a lot lately, but I did find one that I was really excited about.

And this is probably one that some people wouldn't feel as happy about it, but it did make me really happy. They recently did a study and they think there's around 800 great white sharks near Cape Cod, Massachusetts. And for a long time, those sharks weren't there. and it was because they had mostly eliminated all the pinnipeds, like so all the seals and sea lions and stuff in the area. And so the sharks weren't really around, but they historically had been there. And now they've really done a good job protecting the marine mammals. And now the sharks have come back. And they've come back in really large numbers.

And they're like a top three favorite animal for me. So hearing that they're doing really well in a part of the world is really exciting. Because I know there's other parts of the world where they're really struggling. So it was it was exciting news for me. Cape God's cool to visit, too, because you can download an app that shows you where all of the great white sharks are in the area and you're just sitting on the beach. Yeah. I remember going and I was sitting on the beach and it sends you alerts too. And it shows you like where you are and where the shark is.

And it's like, I'm just sitting on the beach and then I get an alert and it's like Great White, this direction and you look up. And you can't see them obviously because they're in the water, but you know that they're right off the coast. I wonder how the app knows where they are. They probably are connected to the trackers that are in the sharks. They have trackers on a lot of them. I think they do aerial views too, like periodically to see what's going on. Yeah, well, that's mine. I don't know how happy mine is, but it's not sad.

Okay, but did you see that Japanese guy who bought like a $17,000 dog suit? Yes. Because he wanted to be an animal his entire life. Yeah, unfortunately, I did see that. It looks really weird because it's like so close to looking. Like I had to look for a while to be like, okay, so that's not a dog. Well, when he's going like this, you can tell like something's weird. But like if you're just, if he was just sitting there, it is freakishly similar.

That's at first two, I read that he like got a medical procedure to become a dog. And I was like, that's crazy. But then it's just a dog suit. That actually reminds you of. Do you see the other news article that's for the Sunday? They just have a guy in a suit. Countless people said that one to me be like, what is this a bear?

Yes. What do you think? It's a bear for sure. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. No. What's your opinion?

But why does he have people legs? I mean, when they stand up, they can really look like that. And because sun bears don't have long coats of fur, you see all these folds in their skin and their legs look very human-like. But it's just that sun bears are weird and they look weird when they stand up or when they do anything. like remotely human. So that's all it is. But it's for sure a bear.

I saw that there was another article related to that same zoo that had someone who worked there come forward and say that the zoo was forcing people to dress up as like chimpanzees or like gorillas or something. I forget what it said. There's a different zoo where like when they were going out of business they made the workers dress up. I'm kind of here for that kind of zoo, you know? That's what I was thinking like if there's a.

zoo of like people dressed up as animals i'd want to see yeah trying to pretend to see like the draft is like four people in one suit i feel like that's like a weird like fetish thing that already exists somewhere yeah yeah for sure probably yeah some cage but just like in a public yeah well yeah we we wanted to end on that one because i was also i was just catching up with your most recent news episode and And yeah, there's just a lot going on that's a little depressing. I, too, was really messed up by watching that. The tiger shark video. The tiger shark video.

We were at the airport somewhere. I don't know where we were going. Yosemite, maybe. Danielle was like, watch this and send me the link. I can't get over. You had no idea what it was coming. Yeah, I started it and I couldn't watch it. So I still haven't finished it.

And like days later, I would just turn to Cassie. I'm like, I can't stop thinking about this. Yeah. He's like, maybe you shouldn't have watched it. I think part of it's just like how close to shore he is, too. It's like, oh, it's like that close. But it's so helpless. When you can't see what's going on and you're imagining what's happening underwater.

And it's just a lot. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So much for ending on your head service. Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess the other one that you talked about with this, was it the rattlesnake.

Oh. Another rattlesnake on Table Mountain. The kid who fell on it? Yeah, I live there. I live near Golden. Oh, really? Oh, cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, so Table Mountain's like five minutes away. Don't fall on any rattlesnakes while you're out mountain biking. Yeah, I was like, oh my God. I'm like, that's sad, but I can relate because I go to Table Mountain all the time. Have you seen rattlesnakes? I haven't, no. But it's just, you know.

Hopefully you get to. Hopefully not. I'd rather not. But okay, all right. Well, I don't know how long this has been. Almost an hour and four and a half. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It was fun. It is fun. Yeah, we're happy to talk animals. Yeah. We'll make it a quarterly thing, I guess. Perfect. Perfect.

I do think with those news episodes, like, it is hard because that's like conflict between us and animals. But like to me, the really depressing stuff is all the other stuff you read in the news about like what we're doing to them. A thousand percent. Yeah. But so it is nice to see these. Like I know every year at the end of the year there's like articles that say conservation success

stories from the year. And I always try and dig those up. We do a year end episode and try and talk. about some of that because it is kind of bleak especially in summer when it's so hot so anyway and everyone's out and about yeah well we'll look forward to some happy news in a couple months perfect yeah awesome yeah lovely well thanks for coming on guys yeah yeah yeah thanks for having us again thanks for having us yeah thanks for telling us your bear stories so it's a lot of fun and interesting yeah we got plenty more where that came from yeah quarterly quarterly episodes we'll be right

Well, just merge as one. Yeah, I know. We're going to come up with a third separate podcast. Perfect. There we go. Yeah. Well, everyone knows already, I'm sure, where to find you guys. But just in case anyone is listening for the first time, where can people find you?

Yeah, you can find us anywhere you find your podcast. The name of the podcast is Tooth and Claw. And each week, every other week, we go over a story that involves generally an animal attack. what we can learn from them, why often the people are doing something wrong to trigger the attack. And then we have like a lot of fun categories that we go into. And then in the off weeks, we do a subscriber episode too. And we have a really healthy subscriber base that's, those are really fun episodes that are often led by Jeff or our other co-host, Mike, who's not here today, but is missed. Deerly.

Yeah. Yeah. We'll catch him next time. Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

We'll see it. Thank you so much for being here in the meantime. Enjoy the view, but watch you're back. Bye, guys. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at NPADpodcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our Outsiders-only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes, and exclusive content.

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