National Park After Dark - Cemeteries: Our First Public Parks

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Graveyards are often portrayed as eerie, haunted places. Today, they’re depicted as places of fear and sorrow, where the living rarely go. But historically, cemeteries were central to community life. Far from being hidden or feared, they were embraced as spaces for reflection, creativity, and leisure. They allowed for open religious expression, inspired art and literature, and helped shape landscape architecture. This week we explore cemeteries and appreciate them for all that they have done to shape modern public parks and their roles in conservation and cultural history.Cemetery Scavenger Hunt Info :) For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at: Instagram: @nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @nationalparkafterdark Support the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to the week’s partners!Liquid IV: Use our code NPAD at checkout to get 20% off your first order.IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping.BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off.Hello Fresh: Use our link to get up to 10 FREE meals and a free item for life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Graveyards. They are the epicenter of every spooky themed backdrop and are generally depicted something like this. Crumbling headstones jutting out of uneven ground like jagged teeth. Phantoms float the ground. as fog snakes through the overgrown grass. They are places of loud silence, broken only by an owl hooding or a raven cawing from within the leafless branches of gnarled trees.

In short, they are eerie. Knowing the bodies of hundreds, if not thousands of people, lay just underneath your feet, can be, well, unsettling. They are physical reminders of our own mortality, and as I just described, often get an unfair edit, portrayed as places of sadness, suffering, and scariness. Places where ghosts dwell and the living avoid. But that representation is relatively new. Not so long ago, cemeteries were not sequestered away and avoided. They were integrated and embraced. Not limited to a place purely for mourning, cemeteries acted as the first form of free, open religious expression in this country and gave birth

to landscape architecture that inspired the layout of suburbs and places like Disneyland. They moved people creatively and inspired famous works of literature. They were the catalyst for the country's first conservation project. They served as America's first public art museums. And wouldn't you know it, cemeteries were among America's first parks. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Fun fact, my first memories of learning how to ride a biker. in a cemetery. That's your first ever memory. Of writing, of learning to ride a bike. Oh, I thought you're like,

I come into this world in memory within a cemetery trying to ride a bike. Okay. It'd be like five. What happened to you before that? Maybe you were a bike riding protege. I don't know. It's true. Well, that's fun. Yeah. And you were talking about how your intro just reminded me of that a little bit, just because you were talking about how they're, when I was a kid, I didn't think of it as this morbid place. It was this paved place that had flowers and it was open and I could fall without hurting myself or like crashing into a tree. Yeah, and like little to no car traffic and just kind of a good place. Good on your whoever. Who's my dad made that decision. Cassie's dad, right on. Well, thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of National Park After Dark. My name is

Danielle. I'm Cassie. And today I am going to be talking about my favorite, one of my things. And that's cemeteries. I have been dying to do, dying to do this episode for quite a long time, just trying to, similar to the Titanic, just trying to work it in in any sort of way. How can I make this work for national? What's the angle here? And I found one and it's a good one. So no, it will not be my freebie. It actually does count. Well, I'm excited. I'm excited because you have been so excited about this episode for a while. So I feel like your excitement has caught on to me and now I want to learn. And also your videos you've been posting on Instagram. Oh my God. Pranted in cemeteries has also got me intrigued in this episode. I think it has most people

intrigued, not about cemeteries, but how I formulate those videos because it's not well. If there's one thing about me that if it wasn't clear before, it is now, I'm not a great content creator. It's difficult for me, but I want to like share information. So that's where I've come. I've started like this cemetery series thing for people who don't know what the heck we're talking about. It's very informal and all over the place. And like if you think you're going to get a curated, lovely two minute video. you're wrong. It's just me like in literally just in cemeteries. I have a tiny little, it's like one of those little tripods that are, I don't know, maybe like five inches tall. Like it's, I feel weird. Yeah. I feel weird as hell. Like I would never bring like a ring light or like any sort of big stand to a cemetery to do content. Like no shade on people who actually do that. Because it takes a type of bravery to go out there in the public like that. Yeah. And to be fair, I'm usually by myself. Like there's, I don't go to cemeteries that are active. They're all historic cemeteries that I like to go in. And, um, but this time of year, people are crawling around cemeteries when they usually are not. So I just feel really awkward. Um, but I did get like a little mic thing, which sometimes works. So anyways, maybe this will breathe life into our 10.

TikTok again. Maybe I'll move it over to TikTok. Yeah. We'll see. You do need things to post on TikTok. So I just need to figure out our password again after. I did post a little bit back there in 2022. You did. Our first videos are all created by you, I think. You did one on the Everglades. I did. And it went like semi-viral, even though it's made like, even though it's really badly made, especially looking back on it now. And it took you so long. too. So long. It took me like hours. People who create content. Good job. I mean, oh my God. Kudos and flowers to you. And I have an interest in it, but it's specifically. It makes you want to take a class, honestly. Someone teach me how to use, like, how do normal people go on TikTok and make a fun video?

I don't know. I really, I truly don't know, especially because when I was like going to edit the video together and like chop it up and try and put it in there. I also, maybe people do it on their computers, but I was doing on my phone and like trying to take my fingers and like clip the video and like touch everything, right? And then it wasn't precise. So it was just, I don't know, whatever. I don't know how people work like in those conditions. It was just I couldn't see anything. All the text was tiny. Yeah. You want me to edit your MySpace page to be the exact color pink you want. I got you. I got the code. Do you want me to code? You want me to code? I'm ready. Want me to make a video on TikTok? Get out of here. No chance. Well, okay. Back to, well, to start, I guess, this episode. Yeah, it's about cemeteries. And we're going to kind of start by, just to give you a little roadmap of the episode, we're going to start by doing kind of like a brief overview of the history of American cemeteries, how they've changed and how our relationship with them has evolved throughout time. And then from there, we'll dive into some other things like Cemetery Cemetery Cemetery Cemetery.

symbolism and then touch upon some cool events and things that you can do in cemeteries today other than create content. So hopefully you'll learn something and give you an opportunity to do something fun this spooky season within your local cemetery. So before we get into it, because this is supposed to be like a fun, maybe not lighthearted episode, but more so light than some of our other topics generally tend to be. I do want to acknowledge right off the bat a couple of things. And first and foremost, number one, this is truly going to be a 101, meaning very basic and incomplete discussions of various topics. There are literal volumes of books written about each one of these topics that we're going to talk about. So just know that the world in the library is your oyster.

And if you want to know more, like please research on your own. This is more of like an intro. So just, I am very well aware that many of these topics are, like we're just scratching the surface of. But also, and more importantly, as exciting and as fun as this episode, hopefully is, I am also aware of how cemeteries can also be very poignant reminders of some very dark chapters in United States history as they are reflective mirrors of the art of our history regarding different cultural attitudes and beliefs of various times, including the forced removal of indigenous people, slavery. segregation, socioeconomic disparities, and more. And that's reflected in the types of cemeteries that kind of pop up on our radar a lot. Like, there's a lot of different topics of discussion when it comes to indigenous burials and African American burials and the lack of acknowledgement that they receive. So I totally understand that. And we'll kind of touch on that at the very end. But by and large, this is going to be mostly about like the history of American cemeteries through the lens of

European views and attitudes. Gotcha. Okay. Great. Okay. So to get started, it may be very hard to imagine now, but before 1831, America had no cemeteries as we know them today. For centuries, European and North American burial grounds for those of European descent,

were either on private family plots or attached or adjacent. to houses of worship. So churches and other religious houses. Religious views at the time were the reasoning for this. It was believed that to best prepare for the second coming to be in a good spot, you needed to literally be in a good spot. And in their view, that was in consecrated ground, which was the ground around churches. So it had to be sacred locations. Or, I mean, if you had a family plot of land and you were way outside of town and it just wasn't feasible for you to be buried around a church. Like that also was an option, but people really wanted to be all up in that church. And also, burials outside of church was kind of like a second best option,

because people with a lot of power and money and influence were literally buried inside churches and interred in the walls or under the floorboards and in crips under the church. So that was like the best of the best VIP spots. And then outside of the church, if you couldn't afford that. That's super interesting because when I was in England last summer, I think, last summer, or maybe it was two summers ago now. But I was in England and we went to the coast and towards some national parks and stuff. And while I was there, we went to a tea room.

But next to the tea room was a very, very, very old church, probably the oldest church I've ever stepped foot in. And all through the walls, there were people buried and they had plaques outside and like almost to the ceiling was just burials of people. And then outside there were tons of gravestones in this little yard that was behind the church itself. But they were so old that they were crumbling. I mean, the dates on these were some of the oldest dates I've ever seen on a cemetery before. Yeah, or like completely wiped away like weathered and yeah. Yeah. So that was the reason for it. I mean, it was religious. It's like for the second coming, which I know very little about, but I think it's when, isn't it when Jesus is supposed to come back and get you? You're like resurrected. Yeah. Or something. Good luck being resurrected as dust. You stupid idiots. Just kidding. How are you going to get snacks? Everybody, everybody can have their own beliefs. I, who am I to say? I'm just kidding. We don't know anything about the afterlife. who would none of us do until we're there.

So. Yeah. That's honestly, every single time, isn't this so weird? Every time somebody dies. The first thing I think among sometimes like, oh, that's really sad. Like Jane Goodall. Yeah. Perfect example. She just passed away.

And have you seen the Netflix thing that she did? I haven't watched it, but I've seen previews because she did an interview in March of this past year that was to come out after she died. Yeah. So they were asking her like a lot of not hard hitting questions, but just she knew. she knew what was going to come out posthumously. And so anyway, and she's been quoted in different interviews. And I believe in that one too, you know, when somebody's like, what's your next big thing? And she's like, you know, I'm in my 90s. My next big adventure is dying and seeing what happens, you know.

I did see that clip. And that is literally, especially since Ian died, just kind of like my first thought is, well, now that person knows. Now that person knows like what we're all. dying to know, whether it's nothing or whatever version of what comes after this that we all like to toss around and contemplate and stuff. Like, now they know. Yeah. And I saw Jane Goodall said something along the lines of, she's like, either nothing's going to happen and that's okay, or I'm going to be on the best of my, the longest, best adventure after this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You lost a good one. Pour one out for Jane. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Prime.

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It was a huge part of their lives. So the churches were usually smack dab in the middle of town, which worked out just fine, especially in smaller towns. But in cities and places experiencing rapid population growth and population death, it was a huge problem when it came to people wanting to be in turn. heard there. They were running out of space. At first, churches would retrench or essentially dig up old graves, remove the remains to be disposed of in charnel houses, which are buildings or vaults specifically designed for the storage of human remains, and then rebary someone new where they had just dug up somebody else. They're like, okay, this is, we can do this for a little bit. Like, this is sustainable. They're gone. We did it. Like, we'll just put them somewhere else now.

Yep, like just a little refresh, browser refresh. Or they'd skip that part. And, you know, for whatever reason and just stack people on top of one another. It wasn't unheard of for different burial plots to contain five or six people stacked one on top of the other. That's my nightmare. Do not put me for all of eternity next to touching other people. Oh, you're not next to them. On top of them. Yeah.

Or below them. If I have to choose a spot, it's on top. For a little bit. You're on top for a little bit until somebody else. Don't bury me in general. Okay, well. I'm claustrophobic. I noted that a long time ago.

Grave robbing was also rampant, something I think we talked about in the Birken Hair episode that I did in like 2022 or 2023. We went the row back. I know. I was like racking my brain and I almost hit play on it. But then I couldn't stand to hear myself. So I didn't. But I'm pretty sure that we talked about grave robbing and all of that extensively, either in that one or no.

yeah, I think it was that one. There was also the matter of the integrity of the burial plots themselves. They would sometimes collapse under stress or dissolve during heavy rains, sweeping bodies out into the streets. They were also seen as disease-ridden, especially during times of epidemics like cholera and yellow fever, and were rapidly becoming public health crises. There's a rumor that the true reason for churches burning incense during mass stems from attempts to mask the odor of rotting corpses coming from within and around the churches. That kind of makes sense. Again, I'm not, I feel like going back into the depths of my memory with going to mass growing up, I thought that had to do with the kings, the three kings or something that came, like they brought frankincense, murn, and something else. You're asking the wrong

girl. Okay. I'm, I mean, I can see either way, but I'm just saying, I think there is some, like, biblical ties to as well. For that. Yeah. But, again, who am I to say? So all of those concerns, coupled with the growing popularity of cities and the increase in their population and need for space, were the catalysts for a new solution for the dead. By the early 1800s, city planners started drawing up ideas for new ways to handle the deceased.

And that is when a group of horticulturists in Massachusetts had an idea. Well, more specifically, they had an idea to copy the friend. In the late 1700s, France was having a major problem with a pile up of bodies in a very similar way, but much larger and more severe in scale compared to what was happening in 1800s America. Paris's burial grounds had become dangerously overcrowded and the most infamous of locations being the Holy Innocent Cemetery near the center of the city. This site had served as a resting place for over 2 million people over 6 centuries. And just as I described earlier, it was largely because people were dead set on wanting to be buried in sacred ground. Wealthier individuals, like I mentioned, often paid to be interred within the actual churches themselves, sometimes in crypts, other times beneath the floorboards, while the poorer were buried in mass in churchyards like holy innocence. And just as a little bit of a side note, I know that the trip that you did you just described you saw like the church in England and saw.

exactly the description of like everybody being buried in the walls and stuff. But this summer for the first time, I did the Freedom Trail in Boston for the first time in its entirety. And one of the stops is the Old North Church. And for summary, I've been in there before, like in passing, I guess, but I don't know if I've ever stopped and like really read all the information and clearly wasn't as invested as in what was going on there, aside from just like kind of filtering in and out. And part. Part of the church is the crypt. And you can get tickets to go in it, like underneath the church into the crypt.

It's small, but it has over a thousand bodies in it. That's not that small. But it's small when you're physically in there. It's weird. It's strange. But yeah, there's over a thousand bodies. It's part of the Boston National Historical Park. And the tour down there is self-guided.

So it's not like anything official unless they have a special program or something. But it's really interesting. And also, this is relatively new. So when I was in there, I was like, okay, this is interesting and whatever. I'm reading all about it. And then there's this tiny little case in the very back corner that's a little plexiglass case. And it has this fragment of a brick in it and a sign next to it.

I'm like, what the heck is this? And it's like, the cursed brick. I'm like, what? Oh. And so I read it. And essentially it's like, you know how people steal petroval, wood from petrified national forest and then get bad luck and they're like, please take it back. This is ruining my life. Same thing happened. I guess a visitor a handful of years ago took a brick

from the crypt and stole it and then brought it back with this huge apology letter. And he's like, this is ruining my life. Like, it's cursed and I don't want it. I'm so sorry. I took it. And now they have a display of it. But then none of the other visitors do the same thing. Yeah. But it's strange because it's not like there's just bricks laying around. This guy must have pried this thing out of the wall. What a weird half time. But anyways, so yeah, if you're interested in Crips and live in and around Boston, there's one that you can go visit. So anyway, back to France.

In Paris, the overcrowding was reaching a peak. Grave diggers were dumping bodies into large pits without proper coverage. Sometimes bodies were not buried at all, just kind of stacked above ground. And this neglect turned graveyards into putrid, overflowing landfills of decompose. flesh. And the use of charnel houses was common. Once the remains decomposed, bones were collected and stored there, making space for new bodies, but it just was not, they couldn't keep up. The sheer number of corpses led to horrible conditions. Piles of decaying bodies would emit fat that oozed across the cemetery grounds and the smell of rot overwhelmed the surrounding neighborhood.

locals even claimed that the gases from decomposing bodies extinguished candles and discolored their clothing. I knew I didn't like Paris. I'm so sorry. Ew. It is gross. Paris was not one of my favorite places and maybe I was picking up on a past life. The situation somehow got even worse in 1780 when a season of relentless rain softened the ground so much that a nearby house's basement was flooded with bones from a collapse. cemetery wall that it was adjacent to. King Louis XVIth realized that this was not a good look and banned all burials within Paris and ordered the complete removal of remains from burial grounds

like Holy Innocence. The removal operation was conducted at night to avoid public disturbance and crews transported remains in black draped wagons through the streets accompanied by priests with incense and torches. The chosen destination for the remains was a labyrinth of old limestone quarry tunnels carved out beneath the city, which became what we now know as the Paris catacombs. So if you're wondering where all those bodies came from and all those bones and all those remains, anyone who's ever seen pictures of the catacombs or have physically been there and just this overwhelming sea of seemingly endless human remains, it's coming from all these overwhelmed burial grounds that were literally overflowing with dead people. And they had nowhere to put them.

It's crazy to think of it now because now the catacombs are a place that people visit purposely. And when you think about it back then, it would be, I imagine, places that people would avoid. Yeah. Very much so. And now it's a tourist destination. So it's just interesting. But as soon as you said a burial in the middle of the city with two million bodies, I knew it was the catacombs. Yeah.

It's like it has to be. There's no other one. Well, I mean, that's the holy innocence was a different. That was a burial ground. That was like a graveyard. Yeah. And then they're like, okay, we have all these. We need a solution.

And that solution did work for a moment of time. But what about long term? Like they needed a long term solution. They couldn't just keep doing this. People were scarred from the whole, you know, decomposing bodies oozing out into the street situation. And we're desperate for a better, longer lasting alternative. And also how different. emotionally. Like, these are your loved ones. Like, we, today, you know, in America, we think,

okay, when my loved ones die, I have the option of a burial where I can go and be like, this is the location where my person is. And I can go visit them and this is their spot. Yeah. Not like they're just mixed up with millions of other people. I have no idea where they are. Their body is literally like, you know, it's just emotionally. it was probably just as difficult as like the problems that it created outside of that. Definitely. That solution came after the French Revolution when new, more hygienic and thoughtfully designed burial grounds were ordered to be created outside of the city limits. The most famous of which is Père Lichet's Cemetery.

This cemetery was built on a 43-acre plot of land and the man behind its vision was an architect named Alexander Theodore Brunardt. and what he created was so unique up until that point, nothing like it existed in the entire world. First, it was non-denominational, meaning it accepted people from all faiths, which at the time was groundbreaking. You didn't do that before. It was designed to be a beautiful, park-like resting place for the dead, set up like a small village, with winding cobblestone paths, street signs, and lush landscaping. The grounds were wonderfully landscaped, filled with trees like maple, cherry, and willows, and dotted, with flowers and rose bushes.

It was more of a peaceful garden than a traditional graveyard, a place that invited visitors to stroll and reflect, somewhere to actually spend time. It opened in 1804 and accepted its first resident, a four-year-old little girl. And with that, the modern cemetery was born. You would imagine that this would be something, like a solution that people would be super thrilled about.

Like, hey, we just went through a nightmare with all that stuff, and graveyards in that setup that wasn't working. But in actuality, the cemetery struggled. People were wary of this new scenic and pleasant alternative to the traditional graveyard. I mean, it was change, right? You've been doing something the same way for centuries. And especially if you have very strong religious beliefs and ties to a certain way of doing things, it's going to take some time to adjust. But plus, it was also outside of the city. Remember, it was ordered to be built far and away. to hopefully avoid problems like they were facing before, which clearly solved a number of big issues,

but it presented another problem in regards to accessing it. You know, people couldn't just hop in their car and drive over in 10 minutes. Like they had to walk or take carriages or, you know. Yeah, they couldn't visit their loved ones whenever they wanted. Yeah. And in the first year, only 14 people were buried there, which wasn't the best for business. So they decided to make people interested in their business. They decided to buy and move three famous people, playwrights and a medieval couple known

for their love letters that were very popular at the time to their cemetery. And they publicized the crap out of it. They're like, hey, look what we, look who's here. Don't you want to be buried next to them? Yeah. It's such an interesting marketing move. But it worked so well. It worked really, really well.

It's really funny, actually. Today, over a million people are entered in this cemetery, including famous rock stars, actresses, poets, and more. The cemetery, nicknamed the City of Immortals, is filled with works of art in the form of life-sized sculptures and statues that are so beautiful. They draw thousands of people every year. Every once in a while, images of certain graves will go viral online coming from inside this cemetery. So even if you don't know the name or the story I'm describing, you probably recognize. some of the famous graves or sculptures within it. Notably, Oscar Wilde's tomb, which has been sealed to visitors as thousands of women would kiss it with red lipstick. So it was getting completely

covered with lipstick stains from visitors. Or the grave of Victor Noir, born Ivan Salman, a journalist killed by Prince Bonaparte. Originally bronze, like many of the sculptures in the cemetery, it's oxidized over time. So it's largely green, kind of like the Statue of Liberty. However, the artist who did the sculpture did Victor some favors because he sculpted him with a, he was packing. Okay. There's a little bulge down there that is noticeable. And legend has it over the years.

I don't know where it originated, but legend has come to claim. that if you rub this bulge, it'll provide different fertility benefits and it's good for fertility. I've seen this on social media. I've seen that it's been rubbed so much that the coloring has actually changed. Oh, it shines like a new penny down there. Yeah. So it's those types of monuments and sculptures that really make this cemetery so beautiful. and of course it has historical significance, but it's just, it's stunning.

Hearing of the early success of this cemetery and desperately needing reform in the ways in which burials were being conducted in America, Harvard professor Jacob Bigelow proposed doing the same thing that Paris did with the city of immortals, but with one big exception. He envisioned it wilder and more spacious. He envisioned a public park because, surprise, surprise, there weren't public parks as we know them today either. And I do need to mention like a little asterisk here because there were public parks, most notably at this time, Boston Commons, which is the oldest park in America. It was founded in 1634. So it kind of takes the crown for the oldest park here in this country. But it started as a cow pasture

and military training ground before it became a central spot for things like protests and public executions. So its creation wasn't intended for recreation and pleasant things. It was more practical uses and, you know, practical uses like public edgians and hangings and, you know, grazing your cows and whatnot. And it did eventually gain speed as a spot for recreation nearly 200 years after its creation. So it wasn't initially designed with recreational intention, but Mount Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge, Massachusetts was. Bigelow spent years trying to shop around his idea to people with power and money that could make it happen.

But just as the people in France balked at the idea of this new concept called the cemetery, so too did Bostonians. He had found the perfect location for his idea in the year 1830. Roughly 71 acres of forest nestled along the Charles River in Cambridge named Stone's Woods. It was used mostly by Harvard students as a place to meander and stroll, but it was undeveloped. It was just somewhere, you know, people happened to pass through or spend time. He purchased the plot, but didn't have enough to develop it into his vision. Lacking public support, he turned to another form of support, the Massachusetts Horticulture Society and offered them a deal.

If they agreed to lend their name and support publicly and to use their bougie contacts and influential friends to gather support for potential investors, Bigelow would set aside 30 acres of the 71 acres of land for them to use as their headquarters and experimental gardens. It worked. They agreed. And the marketing, once again, was strategic. The project was advertised as the Horticultural Society's garden and cemetery. Like, they kind of were like, Big font. Big font garden. And then it's like asterisk and cemetery. Very small. It was successful. And within a year, the garden cemetery was open. The first landscaped rural garden cemetery in the United States, complete with a lavish opening night ceremony in the cemetery's amphitheater.

Plans were immediately drawn up for the construction of the grounds through naturalistic landscape elements, which included dredging ponds and creeks, constructing a large viewing tower, installing fountains, and carving winding paths and roads throughout the property, leaving wooded areas and reflective ponds, and highlighting the panoramic views from the Central Hills Summit that overlooked the city. Then there were the plants. As news of this new crazy idea called a garden cemetery spread, horticulturists from around the world sent gifts of seeds, everything from magnolia trees from Ohio and vegetable seeds from the London Horticulture Society. By the end of the 1830s, Mount Auburn had several hundred trees planted and was just getting started.

It began incorporating conservation ideas over time. By 1870, with a growing interest in Mount Auburn as a destination for bird watching, a committee on birds for the cemetery was established, resulting in planting of trees and fruit-bearing shrubs that would attract the birds. Sculptures were installed, becoming the first outdoor sculpture gallery in the country, and all of the work that was done with the intentional landscaping resulted in the first true landscape architecture project in America. So there's a lot of first going on here with a cemetery. Like in, you know, we have all these things that we kind of take for granted now. And I mean, you don't even bat an eye at them. It's so normal. But this was one of the first projects that really paved the way. Yeah. When you're talking about it, I'm like, yeah, all this makes sense. But it doesn't, you forget that at one point this was an idea and not a normal. Right. Word spread fast. And as plans moved off blueprints and started taking shape in real life, people took notice and wanted in. You know, they're like, like, oh, okay, this is actually really nice. We didn't believe you at first. We were scared,

but this actually looks lovely. It didn't just gain the attention of Boston locals who loved the idea of spending eternity there. It became a tourist sensation. People from the likes of Emily Dickinson, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Henry David Thoreau, and Nathaniel Hawthorne all visited for recreation, inspiration, and to pay their respects. But more importantly than celebrity visitors, it drew in the average person and a lot of them. The beautiful, tranquil setting of Mount Auburn was a major draw for city dwellers seeking to experience nature. People visited not only to mourn, but for recreation, education, and sightseeing. They had celebrations and picnics. This cultural phenomenon resulted in the rural cemetery movement in America. And soon after its opening,

places across the nation began copying its model from New York to San Francisco. As Greg Melville states in his book, over my dead body, unearthing the hidden history of America's cemeteries, says of Mount Auburn, quote, it laid the first building block for the modern environmental movement, untethered graveyards from houses of worship, and turn them into freestanding entities which transformed America's burial practices and customs. Nearly every modern cemetery in the country shares DNA of Mount Auburn. Seven years after the opening of Mount Auburn,

Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn opened its giant brownstone gothic revival gates. And while it mimicked the rural park-like layout of Mount Auburn, like of course they're using that cemetery as a blueprint to be repeated, it leaned into funerary art and leaned in hard. New York's growing community of artists from poets, painters, writers, and architects descended here for inspiration. But in particular, the sculptors who were commissioned by the ultra-wealthy New Yorkers with a desire to permanently display their opulence really flourished here. And while I have some mixed feelings about that, like, what they were commissioned to create for people are so extra and so bougie

and so over the top. Like, for someone who wants a simple green burial and not a lot of razzle-dazzle, this is the complete opposite of that. They kind of just really wanted to leave their mark of who they were in the power and money that they had. So while I don't know how I feel about that for myself, it sure as hell makes for an absolutely stunning cemetery. And I'm so happy a bunch of people decided to do it at one point because I get to see it. It's like not for me, but it's beautiful. Right. And people of the time, too, took notice of the grand mausoleums, the life-sized or larger bronze and marble statues and other artistic funerary pieces. It gained so much popularity, in fact, it became the country's most visited urban tourist

attraction nationwide. Interesting. A cemetery. Yeah. So what the heck were people doing there? Of course, many of them were simply taking in the site, strolling the grounds, observing the scenery and monuments, and the, you know, absorbing the peace and tranquility that cemeteries generally offer. But they were also picnicking. An article from the Bellows Falls Times from July of 1894 reads, quote, holding a picnic in a cemetery may seem a rather gruesome festivity, but it worked happily in the town of Temple the other day. All hands on deck took hold and beautified the grounds, and the cemetery picnic was so successful that it will be repeated next year. All over America, people started flocking to cemeteries for the exact things you would see today in public parks.

They would lay out blankets with baskets full of sandwiches and drinks right alongside the headstones. at times having full-fledged multi-course holiday meals with the dead. This was in no way a revolutionary idea. People of different cultures throughout time have longstanding traditions of eating meals with the deceased. But for America, this was very new and weirded out a lot of people, especially older generations. While it may seem strange to us now, we have to consider the time and a couple of different factors. First, this was a time before public parks, like I said. cemeteries were the parks. There is no established areas for people to go and do activities like this in a public rural setting.

Yeah, you're not in the middle of New York City and you can go to the park and play Frisbee and have a picnic and read a book under a tree. If you want to find that solace, it's in a cemetery. Yep. And secondly, Americans had a much closer relationship and a higher level of comfortability with death. This is a time where the child and infant mortality rate was high and women frequently died in childbirth. Men died in wars and disease epidemics took people by the millions. You know, it was when somebody dies young today, it's a tragedy. And of course, it happens, but not nearly to the degree that it happened before. So people had a more intimate and close relationship with death and were just kind of like it was more of a norm and something that wasn't.

I mean, our attitude here in America at this point, time with death is very removed, and it was not that way at this time. Picnicing gained so much popularity in cemeteries. It started kind of looking like the aftermath of Burning Man. A June 1900 article, not good. A June 1900 article from the conservative stated, quote, a remarkable fad sprang up in Denver of going to cemeteries for picnics. It has become such a nuisance to have thousands strewn the grounds with sardine,

cans, beer bottles, and lunchboxes that the police interference was almost contemplated. So people are just leaving garbage and litter and trash, you know, like with thousands of people doing that. Yeah. Leaving. And I don't mean to pick on Burning Man. I just feel like festivals have that type of reputation. I have no interest in ever finding out for myself.

Just as with golf, if you ever find me at Burning Man. Something in rock, potom. It's happened. The popularity of picnicking in cemeteries eventually faded by the 1920s and has even been banned in certain cemeteries even to this day. But as with many urban parks we see today and certainly within national parks, it isn't always about what cemeteries can do for people, living or dead, but what they can do for conservation. In the early 1930s, a young Ralph Waldo Emerson started spending a lot of time in the woods near his grandfather's home in Concord, Massachusetts. Gaining inspiration from the natural world, in that slice of forest in New England, he went on to publish nature. A book-length essay that became essentially the gospel for a literary and philosophical movement called transcendentalism,

a movement which set the stage for the American environmental movement. And you can read all about that movement, But at its core, it was essentially this movement that really took hold in the 19th century and emphasized individual intuition and self-reliance and like kind of this inherent goodness of humanity and nature and the belief that spiritual truth transcends material reality. And it kind of rose in popularity, especially here in New England. Like that's obviously where it took root here as kind of a reaction against organized religion. and it just kind of encouraged people to just find truth and through personal experience with a deep connection to the natural world versus finding it through organized religion.

Concord became the focal point of this movement and attracted people like Henry David Thoreau, Louisa May Alcott, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and Margaret Fuller to the area to stroll the woods and contemplate transcendentalism. Right. That thing. Of course. As one does. As we all do. Many of their works were inspired by this piece of property and stuck with them both professionally and personally for years and years to come.

However, by 1854, 90% of Concord had been stripped of its woodlands. Writing in his journal, Thoreau remarked about this, writing, quote, Each town should have a park, or rather a primitive forest, of 500 acres or 1,000 acres, where a stick should never be cut for fuel, a common possession forever for instruction and recreation. And the best shot at protecting a space like that, a rural cemetery that would protect it forever. And thus, with Emerson of the Cemetery's Commission, construction of Sleepy Hollow Cemetery began in 1855. Sleepy Hollow?

As in the legend. The legend of Sleepy Hollow. Yep. Wow. How fitting for it. For this time of year. Spooky season. Guess what?

I'm not going to talk about that legend one bit. Really? Really? Sorry. Maybe. But it's sleepy hollow. Maybe some other time. I was to focus on the cemetery portion.

As many trees as possible were saved during construction of the cemetery. And during its opening cemetery, Emerson spoke of how he envisioned as the years passed by, the beauty of the cemetery growing and maturing. that, quote, these acorns falling at our feet would someday become oaks overshadowing our children in a remote century. Sleepy Hollow's creation, the way it began as this idea to intentionally protect and cultivate nature in a segment of forest, again, was unprecedented. And as author Greg Melville points out, Sleepy Hollow is often omitted from the conversation regarding the first to protect a natural space in this country, forgotten as often. happens to burial grounds. Instead, the focus is placed squarely on the space designated by Congress

in 1872, and that is Yellowstone National Park. Many of the people who advocated for the protection of Sleepy Hollow are buried there, including Louisa May Alcott, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Thoreau, and Emerson, eternally resting under the trees they wanted to save. So Sleepy Hollow began as a conservation project in wanting to protect the forest. And it's like, how do we do that? I guess you buried dead people here because then it's protected. It was like almost like a loophole in a way. Yeah. It's smart. It's a smart loophole. It's like, well, you can't destroy land. That is a important burial ground. Right. It's very, very clever. With all of that hype and love and admiration for cemeteries and how beautiful and meaningful

they are, they are dying in visitation and in use. There are a few reasons for that. But overwhelmingly, we are choosing other alternatives when it comes to deciding what to do with our mortal remains. Aquamation, green burials, human composting, body donation, and even becoming part of a memorial coral reef, have all risen in popularity as we have woken up to how problematic the death industrial complex has become. People argue it has become predatory and powerful, and not to mention, it is absolutely horrendous for the environment. Aside from the glaring problem of running out of space for sprawling cemeteries. Those once far removed rural garden cemeteries are now encapsulated by cities who have grown to surround them. But traditional burials are bad, bad news bears for the

environment. Because, you know, at first it's like, great, let's just over there. Away from all the people. There's so much space and room. And again, it's like that was a solution to a problem at one point, but now we're running into that problem again. I mean, like. Well, when you kind of think about it too is like in Sleepy Hollow's case, you are preserving some of the trees that were otherwise going to be bulldozed over and built upon. But when you look at cemeteries as a whole now and today, a lot of them have paved roads in them. They have to cut down trees because you have to bury bodies and have gravestones. So you are, even though you're preserving a piece of land, a lot of it is grass and buried bodies. Well, the way it's landscaped and things

are different. Yeah. It's not. as eco-conscious as you might think. But also, you know, like Mount Auburn in their case, which surprise we will be going to tomorrow before our event. Oh, no. Yeah. Because it's close to where we're going tomorrow. So I would like to bring you. Because I have been before and it's amazing and beautiful. And I think after especially hearing this, like 24 hours later, seeing it in person would be really cool. But with their case, you know, originally it's like, great, it's away from the city. It overlooks Boston, but it's still separate. Now, oh my God, it's in the middle, smack dab in the middle. Cambridge has surrounded, you know, grown up around it. Cambridge is huge, just basically Boston.

Right. So it's like that idea that was once a answer to a big problem as far as, you know, keeping it away from, we're running out of a way is what I'm saying. You know, so that's a problem. But also, traditional burials are just terrible for the environment. And that's another huge conversation and one that could take up an entire episode. But I just wanted to give some fast facts about it just to give you a glimpse into how terrible it is for the environment. According to the Green Burial Council every single year, Americans alone deposit into the ground through burials, 4.3 million gallons of toxic embalming fluid, including formaldehyde, along. with 1.6 million tons of concrete, 81,000 tons of metal, and 20 million board feet of wood. Heavy metals from medical devices left in corpses and powerful pharmaceutical drugs like those used in chemotherapy also seep into the ground and along with the embalming fluids eventually seep their way into underground waterways. Cremation is also a hugely popular alternative to traditional burials that have, you know, skyrocketed in popularity over the last few decades.

And for a time was thought to be a much better alternative to traditional burials for environmental reasons. But studies over the last few decades show as the process stands today, I mean, there are improvements trying to be made with the technology and how things are done with cremation. But as it stands right now, it isn't better by much due to the release of harmful gases and a huge amount of energy that it needs to power even a single cremation. So that's kind of a side note, but I did want to mention that. So as all these facts and figures start to emerge, the public is starting to favor more environmentally friendly options as we begin to recognize just how huge of an environmental impact traditional burials have on our world, which is great. I mean,

this is great for nature to improve what you can do to reduce your carbon footprint, even after you're dead is awesome. Totally a big advocate for that. But in the context of cemeteries, it's bad news. Because with their interred residents becoming further and further removed from the living and other options for recreational activities that people once sought to do within cemeteries, like, you know, there's actually, you can go to a public park now. Yeah, they exist. You don't have to go to a cemetery. There's less visitation, especially here in New England with the older cemeteries. I mean, people aren't visiting their great, great, great grandfather. Like the graves from 1772, you know, the cemeteries and burial grounds, a lot of them

are burial grounds that once had a church or some form of house of worship that either has been burned or demolished or whatever. There's usually a plaque that'll say like this here once stood, whatever. I think we also have a lot more of a connection to our loved ones who have passed on remaining where I, nowadays, and we did when cemeteries first became an idea, because when we first, I mean, going back for a long time, but cemeteries were where your loved one was. And that was kind of the only place that you could be close to them. But now we have pictures.

We have videos of them. We have all of these things where we can feel close to them in our homes, where I feel like has also probably really contributed to people not going to cemeteries as much. Exactly. And, you know, a lot of people just aren't being buried. You know, like my, you know, the people who I've lost that are very close to me do not have physical graves. So there's no need for me to personally visit a cemetery for personal reasons in that way. So with all of those factors, you know, there's less visitation, which means less money. And with less money coming in, all that funding going, you know, that isn't there.

It means less budget for upkeep. and there's more problems associated with maintaining the grounds and keeping the gates open to these cemeteries. So what can be done? You know, like what is the solution there? And I'll give you a solution, a little bit of a recommendation. And this was my favorite part of the episode to research because this is where I get to event recommendations and ways that you can go into cemeteries and have your own experience other than just going to stroll around and poke around on your own. Understandably, special events ramp up in earnest this time of year with spooky season. I mean, it's like their Super Bowl season right now in October. And I'll highlight a few of those

special events, but there are year-round events in cemeteries that are happening all of the time that are just as fun and just as intriguing. And I really encourage everyone who is even slightly interested in this topic or just their local history to look into events that are going on in their nearby cemeteries or historical societies because I guarantee that you will find something nearby that you will want to participate in or at least investigate and see what it's all about. Big name cemeteries like the ones we talked about today, Mount Auburn, Greenwood and Sleepy Hollow, and also the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, which I didn't get into, but is very famous. And we went to, that was my birthday wish a few years ago. Yeah, we went with Ian and Al and we walked around the Hollywood

Cemetery and it was an interesting experience because I was thinking about it a lot in this episode where you were talking about how people used to go for fun and to recreate in the Hollywood Cemetery kind of still embodies that atmosphere because people go they pay a ticket price. It's like it's very nice there. It's beautiful. You know, everyone has these incredible headstones that are there. And of course, a lot of that comes down to the people who are buried there are very rich. And very famous. So that's in part of why it's so beautiful. But it's a cemetery, but it doesn't have like this ominous, like, sad feeling. It's very bright and welcoming. And it was an interesting place to be. Yeah. And it's that's like a perfect example of having famous people interred there and drawing visitors. You know, because we went. I mean, I wanted to go because we were there already for another event. It lined up with my birthday. And it just, it's kind of like this iconic location. And we got the math. And we got the map.

You know, and we're like, have it out. And we're like, okay, where's Judy Garland? And yeah, where's, I have a picture of Ian in front of, what's his name, Ramon, something. He's like a famous rock star. I remember that. God, people are probably screaming on me right now. I don't remember a person, but I remember him wanting a photo in front of. Yeah, I have a picture of him there. And then I also, I was going through because I wanted to see. I'm like, oh, what, what pictures do I have of that when I was researching this episode? I have a picture of you. in front of Toto's little memorial marker. And I have a video. I was like, why did I save this video? It's like three seconds long. It's not even really of anything.

Like, what the heck is this? It looks kind of like I had the video going in my hand and I forgot to turn it off. And I'm watching it. And at first, I almost deleted it. Because at first, it's just when we were inside the, it was like the mausoleum, one of the mausoleums or I don't know what. it's called. It was a huge indoor building. And it was echoing like crazy. And I'm like, what the heck is this? And I kept it because no one's in it. It's just filming the memorial markers or

grave markers. And it's Ian laughing. And it's just echoing like throughout the whole thing. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. So that's a perfect example of somewhere that does really leans into events and drawing people there. And like you said, I mean a lot of people who are interred there are very wealthy. So they have money coming in and things like that. But they aren't the only ones who have events. So I wanted to, just from the three that we talked about, they're literally bullet point lists of just because we'd be here forever if I talked about everything. But Mount Auburn, I mentioned it super briefly. But this is a hotspot birding destination. So for all you birders out there. This is one of this cemetery's biggest attractions. They host thousands of

visitors every single year for birding events. And they have walking tours and birding ID tours. And it's a part of- So interesting. It's along like a migration route, like a special migration route. And especially with all the specifically landscaped trees and vegetation to attract birds, it's like people go there specifically for this and they have events like seasonally for it. It's really interesting. They have everything from forest bathing opportunities, drawing workshops, historic walks, meditation retreats. They have events all of the time. So this is kind of, it goes without saying that most of these cemeteries have really have special events that have to do with historic walking tours of the history of the cemetery.

This is like above and beyond those. offerings. Gotcha. Greenwood in New York has candlelit walks. They have parades. They have death education series, school programs, school field trips, environmental and historical research fellowship opportunities. They have artists and residence programs because like I said, they really gained a lot of notoriety for their art, especially when they started. They have after dark light shows and so much more. And then Sleepy Hollow, of course, has lantern tours. They have murder mystery events, jack-lantern painting nights, especially this time of year. They have live storytellings of classic tales like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the legend of Sleepy Hollow, Dracula, and this horsemen.

I got to go since I don't know anything about it, apparently, and neither will you from this episode. Cemetery also routinely host outdoor movie nights. That's a huge thing this year. They're starting to wrap up because the weather, especially in New England, is getting chillier. But look up cinema and the cemetery events near you. And you can literally, it's like outdoor, you just bring your blanket and a chair and set up in the cemetery. And they have a big outdoor projector and you can watch a movie. Cute.

There's concerts, yoga classes, workshops. and of course the historic walking tours that go over everything from the lives of those who are interred there, local legends, their architecture, horticulture, birding, and so much more. And to finish this up, if you don't live near any cemetery that hosts events like this, or if they happen to be all sold out, especially this time of year, you know, they're super popular. I looked into a couple at Mount Auburn and they were like, yeah, no, you're not getting in. I do have a solution for you. And I participated in this last year, and it was so much fun, especially if you're an introvert and, like, don't want to be social but want to still do something fun, like, in a fun event. This is the best of both worlds. You get the best of the best.

So I follow a page on Instagram, and it's called Talk Death Daily. And each year, they host a cemetery scavenger hunt. And this is an event that you can do 100% by yourself in whatever. cemetery that you choose or at one of their participating cemeteries that are involved in the event. So I'm going to break down how this works because I was so, I was like, oh my God, I hope this comes out before the cemetery scavenger hunt and it does. So if you're listening to this in real time this year, you have like roughly a week to prepare yourself. So this year, it's running on Sunday, October 26th. So on that day, this is what you're going to want to do. You're going to want to pick a cemetery and a

there at least 10 minutes before the start time, which will be 2.30 p.m. Eastern. Clues are dropped all at once across a bunch of their Instagram, their Facebook, and on their website. Like, they drop a bunch of clues. And you have 45 minutes to explore the grounds in search of headstones or monuments or different features that match the given clues. And once you find the clue or the answer to the clue, you take a selfie with it. And you're provided with this form that, as you find the clues, you upload your picture to the corresponding clue to show that you found it. And you have to just submit it by the end of the allotted time, which is like 45 minutes. And they pick winners and announce the winners about an hour after the 45 minute window closes. And they give out prizes to the person who finds 13 clues first, the highest number of clues found over the 45 minutes and different accolades for like most unique photographers. Like sometimes people, like they say, okay, you need to be able to identify yourself within each picture. So we know you're not just like Googling a picture and uploading it once you see. Like we have to see that this is you. And in the past some people have like dressed up or like used a little like fun like a big foot little figurine or something to hold or just something unique and cute. So most creative photography, they'll give out awards for that too. And they advise you to do your research before. forehand into your cemetery of choice to make sure you're doing everything by the book, make sure that

you're not going to break any rules or go against any guidelines of that particular cemetery just to make sure you're being respectful. And of course, that means being mindful of any other people that may be in there and staying far away from any active burials or ceremonies or anything like that. And they encourage you to find cemeteries that are the most historic and larger diverse that you can because it'll give you a better chance at locating clues. They're finding like all of these things. Yep. And if you are close to one of their partners, they're doing collaborations with some really

incredible cemeteries, collectives, and individuals and different death adjacent groups to give you an opportunity to connect with like-minded people. And they really encourage you to go out and go to one of those events if you're close to them. And I wrote down three, the Forest Lawn Cemetery in Buffalo, New York, Lone Fur Cemetery in Portland, Oregon and Riverside Cemetery in Waterbury, Connecticut are participating this year as like official partners. And the clues are kind of just to give you like a snapshot and like what the heck are you looking for? Yeah. Last year I'm trying to think. So last year would be like find like a weeping willow. Like because there's, if you follow my cemetery

symbolism series, you know that there are different symbols and things like that on headstones that were popular at different points in time in history. So they'll be like, find a headstone with a weeping willow or find a headstone where the person's initials are all H. So like Horace Herbert Harrison, H-H-H-H. So there are things that you could find in most cemeteries theoretically. Correct. So you can do it from wherever you are. Yes. That's cool. That's a fun idea. Or like find a grave that somebody died in 1879 or whatever. Like it's just they try and make it as accessible to the most amount of people who are going into their local cemeteries versus like particular ones that can be only found in certain locations. You're not going to find find Judy Garland.

Right. It's like find Judy Garland. Good luck. Okay. One cemetery. Yeah. That's such a fun way to do spooky season. Yeah.

And to get people out and involved and interested in eyes and on locations that you may just like. I mean, the amount of cemeteries that we drive by as the average person is crazy. I mean, they're everywhere, but they're just places that we don't really venture too often. And they're just such, there's opportunity there to just have like a really unique experience, especially for people who are interested in history, like, which is the vast majority of our listeners. So there's that. And the last thing about that event in particular, this year, they're raising funds for the Black Cemetery Network, which is a national platform. for highlighting activities to identify, interpret, preserve, and record African-American burial grounds and their histories with an emphasis on identifying, honoring, preserving, and archiving black cemeteries that have been marginalized, underfunded, unmarked, or abandoned.

So love an event with a good cause. Yep. Many cemeteries and burial grounds are treasures cloaked in scary outfits. And while some of them have been left to the elements to be reclaimed by nature, some are national landmarks. There are currently 14 national cemeteries actively managed by the National Park Service, including Gettysburg, Little Big Horn, and Poplar Grove. However, roughly 1,700 of them are designated as national historic landmarks or are listed on the National Register of Historic Places, including Mount Auburn, Sleepy Hollow, and Greenwood. And there's your tie-in for a National Park exhibit. There it is.

There's the cherry on top of the dead. There is so much beauty to behold in the lands of the dead. Burial grounds, to me, are places where the living can give final acts of devotion to the deceased. Can they be a little unsettling? Yeah. But I think we have pop culture to largely think for that. Because if you truly slow down and take the time to read the engravings in stone, they are miniature love letters, either in epitaphs or symbols. Some are small, faded, and worn by weather and time, while others loom largely in the form of giant sculptures, impossible to miss. But regardless, they are testimonies that we have always loved, lost, grieved, hoped for something better, wanted to be remembered, and wished to be honored. While there can certainly be uniqueness and headstones and details etched into them, there is an epitaph that gained popularity in the 18th century and serves as a gentle reminder to all of us today. remember friends, as you pass by, as you are now, so once was I, as I am now, so you must be,

prepare for death and follow me. And with that little momentum more, I will leave you for this episode. I hope you enjoyed learning a little bit about the history of cemeteries and how rad they can be and how special they are. And I hope I inspired you to go check out your local cemetery and tag me in your pictures. I would love to see. Well, for a cemetery episode, that sounded like it would be dark and scary, was not. And it was fun and interesting. And I think just write on the money for spooky season. And I loved the little end part where you said that graves are just tiny love letters.

They are. Like, if you think about it and you're not going to spend money and time and, like, resources to putting up a moment. Memorial, whether it be simple and small and plain or elaborate and decadent and opulent, like big to small, you're still doing it because you love that person and want to honor them. Unless you've figured out for yourself beforehand, you're like, I'm commissioning this for me when I die. You know, largely it's unless you're setting yourself up. Which is still a love letter to yourself.

Right. Right. And just a little at the very, very end here, just a shout out for my primary resource. This book here, which I did mention in a quote earlier, it's called Over My Dead Body, Unerthing the Hidden History of America Cemetery by Greg Melville. This book, I'm not even going to lie, is I read this last year. And this is one of my favorite books of all time, like top five book. Wow. Okay. That's a big honor. It is. I do read a lot of books. It's just so incredible because it goes over, I mean, everything that I said and way more, he goes in depth with indigenous burials and the problems we've uncovered with, you know, African American burials and how like I just mentioned with the talk death event that they've just been largely forgotten and how we used to segregate cemeteries, you know, segregation even in death and just he goes over everything it's not just european centered which is why i love this so much it's kind of all-encompassing and he does a great job um going over a complete history and even the parts that are difficult to face but and he starts it's also cool because it's formatted from oldest to newest east coast to west coast so he'll start in like plymouth mass

and then work over to like the hollywood forever cemetery and it's kind of of like part travelogue, part history based. It's like he has his own because he's personally traveled to all of these places. And it's great. It's really fun. So if you're interested at all in any part of this episode, I definitely recommend this book. Okay. Wow. Thanks, everyone. I feel like I thought this was going to be a short episode and I feel like it was long. Yeah, I don't think it was short. You had a lot of information. Wow. Okay, I'm so happy. So yeah, If you, I was also in my outline. I even had like a little, it's funny because I still have the like header for it and I just never filled it in. I was going to talk about symbols. And then I was like, I don't have the time. Who has the time? Who has the time for these things? That's what your symbol series is for. Yeah, that's right. So if you were interested in that, be on the lookout for some chaotic material on. It's on Instagram right now and maybe one day it'll make its way to TikTok. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see. Okay, everyone, well, thank you so much for joining us and learning a little bit about the history of American cemeteries. We appreciate you so much. We'll see you next week. Yeah. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

But watch your back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams, Discord, and and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact

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