National Park After Dark - Dying for the Cause: Yosemite National Park

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

National Parks were created “for the benefit and enjoyment of the people”, but what happens when that enjoyment is restricted? BASE jumping is the most dangerous sport in the world, but that doesn’t stop people from wanting to pursue it. National Parks are some of the best (and safest) places to enjoy the sport, but it’s illegal. Today we talk about the history of the sport, the reasons the NPS have prohibited it and those who have such a passion for it - they'll fight to the death for the right to participate in it.Nolan Smythe’s GoFundMe can be found here. For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!The Pill Club: Get your birth control subscriptions delivered to your door for free and make a donation to bedside.org to help low-income individuals get access to birth control by using our linkApostrophe: Save $15 off your first visit with code NPADBetterHelp: Get 10% off your first month of online therapy by using our linkAthletic Greens: Get a 1 year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase by using our linkFor a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Cops and criminals, good guys and bad guys, rule followers, and rule breakers. Growing up, many of us were taught that good and bad were easily distinguishable. Right and wrong was easily identifiable and that rules were in place for a reason, and they were meant to be followed. But as we grow up and our black and white world melts into different shades of gray, that dichotomy isn't always as easy to navigate.

We begin to question rules, doubt their origins, and push the limits. We aren't so keen to blindly follow rules set for us by others, and ask a lot more questions that begin with why, and push back on guidelines that we once may have accepted. Rules are put into place for a reason. They can provide us safety, predictability, and can create order out of chaos. But what about those who seek to walk the fine line between safety and danger, or who are stifled by routine and dream of the unexpected.

What about those who feel like birds whose wings have been clipped when weighed down by regulations they feel are unjustified? What about those who believe that rules are meant to be broken? Welcome to National Park After Dark. This sounds like a free spirit episode. That's a really, actually a great way of putting it. Is it? Yes, it is. Do you have any idea of what I'm talking about today? No, just the way that you talked about it and that some rules are meant to be broken and some people just don't see the reason behind things. It just feels like a free-spirited kind of way that you said it.

Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. And this is an episode unlike anything we've really done before in some ways. So I'm excited to get going with it because it is very thought-provident. And we'll see. It's thought provoking. We'll get there. We're probably going to have a lot of discussion today. But before we start, this is a park we've been to before in one of our episodes. It's just we haven't been there in a really long time. Where are we going? You covered it. We're going to Yosemite. Oh, we haven't been there in so long. That was episode four that we went there the first time. Yeah, when you did Carrie Stainer. Yeah. And we're not doing another serial killer. We are not. We are not. Good. Let's look at the nicer side of Yosemite. Is it a nicer side of Yosemite? It has its ups and downs. I'll say that. Okay. And this episode is kind of like the equivalent of your cave episodes. Like when you did the Nutty Puddy Cave for Patreon and anytime we discuss small and closed spaces, how you get super anxious and like sweaty palms and just have a hard time like comprehending and processing it. Okay, I hate talking about, I'm claustrophobic, so I hate talking about caves.

Well, I hate talking about heights, and that's what we are focusing on today. Oh, that's fine. I'm fine with heights. Oh, my heart. If I was wearing my garment right now, like, my heart rate would probably be, like, in the 120s. Like, I just really hate heights. And researching this episode was very interesting, and I'm glad I did it. but looking at pictures and watching footage and even imagining myself in these types of situations

have really, it's really gotten my heart rate up. So it wasn't an easy thing. Is your fear of heights a new thing or has it been something your whole life? I think it's a relatively new thing. I can't pinpoint the specific time that it happened. It wasn't like an isolated instance that I was just like, okay, and from now on I am afraid of heights. It was just like a natural progression, I think. and I'm just really nervous now around heights. It could be little heights, like if I'm on a ladder or something. You get nervous. I get nervous.

Not that I'm going to die, but more so of if I fall and twist my ankle or break my leg, that's just going to mess up my life for the next month or whatever it takes to recover. Like, it's going to be very inconvenient and I really don't want to go through that. And then leading all the way up to, obviously, when I was on Angel's Landing, I did not do the chain section of that hike. just being afraid of heights and nervous about it. Yeah, I was too scared. I feel like as you get older, you get new fears. Mine recently is, I don't like driving in snow anymore. I used to be fine in it, and now I'm like terrified. I scrunch up into a little ball while I'm driving and I have both

hands on the steering wheel and I'm like, I'm going to die, I'm going to die, I'm going to die the the entire time I'm driving. And before being in New England, I would drive in snow all the time and I just didn't care. I think it's like as you get older, you just get all these new fears because now I'm like, I don't ever want to drive in snow and I don't want to drive at night ever again. Post is a big problem seeing as how it's snowpocalypse right now in New England. Cassie's like, I'm just not going anywhere. That's the solution.

Yeah. Okay. So let's go to Yosemite. Obviously, like I mentioned, we've been here before. But I do want to just give a quick little recap in case there are people who haven't listened to episode four or are not familiar with this park. So located in California, Sierra Nevada Mountains, Yosemite was established as a national park in October of 1890. America's third, it encompasses nearly 1,200 square miles of some of the most pristine and beautiful landscape in the entire country.

Giant sequoias stand tall in old-growth forests, water tumbles over some of North America's tallest waterfalls and giant red paint brushes bloom in the high elevation meadows of the park, splashing them with their seasonal crimson colors. Void of species such as the wolf and grizzly that once roamed the land that is now the park, Yosemite is currently home to hundreds of species of flora and fauna that millions of people travel to see each and every year. Millions are drawn here for a variety of reasons. Rafting or fishing the rivers, horseback riding or hiking a chunk of the 750 miles of trails, biking or driving Tioga Road, which wind to the park, or staying up as the sun sets and the moon rises to gaze at the stars in a sky void of light pollution are all

very popular activities. Out of the millions, thousands are drawn here for another reason. Rocks, very tall, very sheer-faced rocks that they look up to with wide, gleaming eyes and anxious hands. Climbing is huge in Yosemite, and those who pursue the sport have glaciers to think. Millions of years ago, Yosemite was a vast ice field, covered with glaciers. As time passed, the ice melted. Glaciers receded and sculpted the park as we see it today. Much of the underlying granite resisted the erosion, and the large sheer faces such as El Capiton, and half Done were left standing.

Fun fact, there's actually only two glaciers that remain in Yosemite. They're named the Lylel and McClure. And right now, they are moving and melting every single year. And in 2015, the National Park Service put out a report, and researchers reported that their loss is an impending and unavoidable one. So if you want to see the glaciers in Yosemite, I would get on it relatively soon. Do they have an estimation of how long that they'll be there for? I didn't go that far into researching it, but I did dive down a little bit of a rabbit hole with it

because there are a lot of YouTube videos and different pictures that do comparisons of the melting of the glaciers since they started first being studied. And although they have always been melting and receding, that is vamping up a lot in recent years. I think John Muir actually also studied the glaciers and things. like that. So we have a lot of data from hundreds of years, but within the last 50 years or so, they're going at a very rapid rate. To what degree, I'm not sure. But it is something that is becoming more and more apparent. People who have visited the park for most of their lives can visually see the changes. Wow. So it's happening pretty fast. Yeah. And that's a whole other thing,

which I think I would actually like to do an episode on, because as the glaciers are receding, which is obviously has its pros and cons, cons as far as environmental impact and changes to the park in that regard. But pros and the fact that as they're receding, a lot of things are being uncovered that have been lost for hundreds of years, whether it be... Oh, yeah. Just like in the ice. Like in the permafrost and the ice, not only here in the U.S., but obviously across the world too. So it's just really interesting. Cool. Maybe an episode for the future. People dot the sheer granite rock faces free climbing,

free soloing, bouldering, and aid climbing. They spend days in the sun with the tips of their fingers on precarious ledges and nights suspended thousands of feet in the air, biviacing overnight. They view these giant rock monoliths as more than just something to be framed in a photo, but rather something to be experienced. Out of the millions of visitors, there are thousands of climbers, and out of the thousands of climbers, there are hundreds of another kind of adrenaline seeker. The kind that wants to conquer the rock and stand on its crown and soak it in in all its glory. They want to feel the sunshine hit their faces and the breeze tickle their eyelashes. They want to open their eyes to the beauty around them and the vast distance below them.

They want to teeter out one precarious step at a time to the edge of oblivion until they are mere inches from the sharp drop of a vertical edge. They want to hold out their arms like the wings of a bird about to take flight, and they want to jump. Base jumping is one of, if not the most dangerous, recreational sport out there. Base is an acronym that stands for the four fixed objects from which a person can jump from. Buildings, antenna, spans, and earth. Once the person climbs on top of their intended fixed object, they jump and free fall until they

deploy a parachute to slow down their descent and softly land. It is similar to skydiving, but it does have some significant differences. Base jumps are performed off of, like I just mentioned, a fixed object, not a moving aircraft, and they're performed at much lower altitudes, and jumpers carry only one parachute. There have been isolated experiments in parachuting throughout history, but the real pursuit of the sport began in Yosemite. In July of 1966, Mike Pelke and Bryant Schubert, two men in their 20s at the time, stuffed their bags with equipment,

summited El Cap, and jumped. They encountered some problems during their landings due to some erotic winds, which resulted in some foot and ankle injuries. Park Rangers accompanied the duo to the hospital, and according to Brian, were excited to actually hear about their adventure. Word got around about this jump, and it even caught the attention of Life magazine.

And even though it was quite the story, Life magazine declined publishing the story because the pictures that were taken that day didn't live up to the standards of Life magazine at the time, I guess. Oh, no. They're like, cool story, but you didn't get any photos of it. Well, they got photos. There are photos, and I'll post one or two, but they're not professional great pictures. You know, they're just some...

Just like a dot falling in the sky. There's a lot of movement and it was something that, you know, their friend was with them and just grabbed a couple photos. It wasn't anything professionally done. They weren't planning to be in a magazine. Right. The magazine never picked up their story. And even though people in the area and in the jumping kind of community, jumping climbing community heard about it, it kind of just fell by the wayside and dissipated, disappeared. It wasn't until 1978 when Carl Bonish made.

his jump off of El Cap, and that is when the sport really took off. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch.

Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little imperfect. and spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting.

Watch only on Prime. Considered the father of modern base jumping, Carl was an American free fall cinematographer who filmed his jumps for different Hollywood movies, Guinness World Record television specials, and National Geographic. He jumped for footage, but also repeated the jumps for recreation.

He popularized the sport and even defined it. Him and his friends were kind of behind the whole base acronym, and he also published work in different base magazines about safety around the sport. But no matter how cautious and experienced, the sport has a very low tolerance for error and gets very dangerous very quickly. One day after jumping with his wife, Jean, and setting a then world record by leaping from a 3,600 foot rock face in Norway, Carl died during another jump. His death was a huge blow to the community. But it wasn't the first, and it was a far from the last. As of 2016, according to National Geographic, since 1981, over 300 people have died

performing jumps, and that number is growing. More than 260 of those 300 names had been recorded since 2000, and that study concluded in 2016. In that last 16 years of that study, that was when the most people had died. Wow. Well, I just thought of how you said he jumped off of something that's 3,000 feet. Have you been skydiving before? Absolutely not. Look at me. Does it look like it been skydiving? I don't know. I went skydiving a few years ago. We jumped at 14,000 feet. And so when you say 3,000 feet, I'm like, oh my God, that's so fast. Because even at 14, thousand feet i mean we free fell for one minute and then we pulled the shoot and that was at 14,000 feet so 3,000 feet you're really not falling for that long you're right you're not and that is one of the

reasons why base jumping is very dangerous is because there's such little room for error because the time that you're actually in free fall is seconds not minutes so if anything goes wrong you have a very limited amount of time to try and correct it before an impact happens. Wow. And it's a bit more complicated than just saying a blatant statement of, you know, 260 people died within this amount of years because the sport has become a little bit more divided in recent years. So there are those who jump with wingsuits and those who jump without. And the people who jump with wingsuits have been dying at a much higher rate than those who jump without. I saw a documentary on wingsuits because I think it's so interesting and really cool and really

terrifying. And I remember watching it. And in it, they said, it's not if you're going to die. It's when. It's like if you wingsuit jump, you have a limited time. And if you don't quit, you die is what they said in the documentary. And I have no personal experience. But that is what they said.

And they're like, you know, you can only do this for so long because this is so dangerous. And that's the sentiment that I gathered after researching this so much because we'll touch back about wingsuits later on in the episode. But yes, that is pretty much the feeling that I got as well. And I didn't watch any documentary for this yet, even though there's now a couple on my list, which I'll recommend at the end. But yes, I totally agree. and I did watch a lot of footage for this episode that included wingsuits and I'm telling you. I just have no desire. You couldn't pay me to do something like this.

And again, as we'll cover, it's not something that you can just do. Like you went and went skydiving. Like it's not like that. You can't just be like, I want to sign up to go wingsuit jumping. I'm like hop on somebody's back to do it. There's no like tandem wing suit. And it's a one person, you got to know how to do it. I mean, even when I went skydiving, I went with my boyfriend at the time and I bought it for him for his birthday.

And I was like, oh, yeah, we're going to go. And we were in the plane. And I remember looking out and like, yeah, this isn't so bad. And then we kept getting higher and higher. And I'm like, oh, God, what did I do? And then they had him go first. And the guy that was attached to him turned him around and had him waived to me as they fell out of the plane. and I was like, oh my God, I just killed him for his birthday a little time.

I'm single now. I was like, I know I'm about to die. We both survived. And it was actually like one of the coolest things I've done. So I get why people get so addicted to it. Yeah. I can't relate, but I can understand other people's desire to do it. So before we get into the whole wing suit debate and dive into that a little bit deep,

We're going to go back to Yosemite back to the year of 1999. We have all probably seen footage of people base jumping on social media or YouTube, and usually they're off of memorable landmarks, which may give the illusion that this is legal, but that's not always the case. Currently, base jumping is illegal in all U.S. national parks, but it wasn't always so. The sport got its start in Yosemite, and the park continued to be a favorite spot for jumpers. At first, the park service didn't know exactly what to do with the newfound sport. I mean, we talked about Mike and Brian when they first did their first jump and they needed to be brought to

the hospital and Park Rangers assisted them and they were, you know, asking about their jump and things like that. And according to them, it wasn't like a fist bump, like yeah, type of thing, but they weren't arrested either. They were just intrigued. Well, it sounds like it was so new when they started too. So park rangers were probably like, whoa, what? What? was that? Like, yeah, like, what do we do with this now? Yeah. And then with Carl coming onto the scene and starting the whole base jumping movement in the 70s, suddenly people were jumping off a cliffs all over the place in Yosemite and it was very dangerous. And there was technically a law in place, a 1966 law in Yosemite that technically banned the jumps. And it was basically saying that

there was no aerial delivery of people or goods in Yosemite. And it was basically saying that there was no aerial delivery of people or goods into the park. So it wasn't a law created for base jumping in particular, but it technically forbade base jumping at the same time due to the language of the law. Okay. So as the sport is growing in popularity, so too did the park services stance against it. Jumpers were sneaking into their jump spots under the cover of darkness or posing as hikers, meanwhile concealing their jump gear. An already dangerous sport was becoming more dangerous to execute. Park Service rangers would forego their uniforms and pose as tourists, waiting at the base of popular jump sites, hoping to catch newly grounded jumpers.

Or they'd hike out and hide amongst the trees and scan for elusive jumpers with night vision goggles, because either at night or in the very early morning is when jumpers would sneak up to the spots, not in the middle of the day. Jumpers knew that they ran a huge risk with the park service and many decided that it was worth it. Jumps were thoughtfully planned out and that included their escapes. As soon as a jumper would land, it was common to have a getaway vehicle and friends already ready and waiting in the parking lot. The jumper would land, unclip all their gear, stuff it all into their bag, run off to their vans and they'd peel out and escape the park service. Oh my God.

That's like a whole routine that they have down. Yes. Yeah, it was very, very planned out. Because I knew what was going to happen. Yeah. And I think I will cover it later too. But as it stood, there was a fine of about $2,000. There may or may not be jail time.

And all of their gear would be confiscated, gear that they need. And that is expensive. So there was a big incentive to get out of there. And it sounds like the park service was on a big mission to stop. it too. Yes, exactly. There were a lot of people who slipped through the fingers of the park service. Others got nabbed and had a hefty fine and their gear got confiscated. And others paid the ultimate price. Frank Gambali III was a well-known base jumper and jumped a lot in Yosemite. He had made over 200 jumps, was very experienced, and very well known within the community. And he was also very well known by the

park service. In June of 1999, Rangers were waiting for him in the meadow below Al Cap. As soon as he landed from his jump, he took off. He unbuckled his chute, smiled at the Rangers, and ran. And the chase was on through the meadow, weaving through the trees all the way to the edge of a very swollen and very cold Merced River. Gambali weighed his options and decided to jump. And his body was recovered almost a full month later. Oh, so he died running from the park service. Yes, he did. That's really sad. It is very sad. And that was really the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to the feelings of the base jumping community. Because up into this point, it was like a cat and mouse game that was kind of becoming the norm within Yosemite. The jumpers knew they shouldn't do it.

They knew that the park service was going to be waiting for them. The park service knew that the jumpers knew that and it was just going to be like a back and forth thing. And not to say that it was like a lighthearted game in any way, but it was becoming a very normalized routine. People weren't getting hurt. It was just like you got to get out of there. It was like an adrenaline seekers rush. You know, part of the thing was jumping and then you have to like gather all your your shit and run. Like some people may have found some humor in that. But at the same time, it was dangerous. and we'll get into why later. So all of these back and forths didn't always result in smooth getaways or smooth arrests.

It was becoming clear, especially after Frank's death, that something needed to change and the base jumping community called for that change. From their perspective, Gambali would have never died if base jumping was legal within the park. He would have never had to make that decision to jump into a rushing, freezing river or have to, you know, surrender. to the Park Service. He would have never been in a situation like that if base jumping was just a legal activity in the park. To them, it was the over-restrictive regulations and the efforts of law enforcement within the park that led to his death. But on the other side, the National Park Service, to them, the ban on base jumping wasn't all about the danger it involved, but the disruption

that it caused. The Park Service in Yosemite actually did a trial period for base jumping permits shortly after carobonish jump from L. Cap in the 70s. So it wasn't always totally banned. They never had any wiggle room for negotiation. They did do a trial for permits for base jumping within the park. In 1980, they began the trial by issuing 12 daily permits. Jumps could take place between sunrise and 8.30 a.m. And jumpers were to arrange other parties to bring down any of their equipment used for either their hike up or if they chose to camp overnight before they jumped during sunrise. so they didn't want anything left behind, and they wanted a limited amount of people doing this every single day. However, when it was only a month or so old, the park service realized pretty quick that this was not going to work.

When all the permits were claimed for the day, it was not out of the norm for jumpers to still proceed without them. And once a group nicknamed the Flatbed 10 actually attempted to drive a truck up the backside of L-Cap for a sunrise jump without permits. But they were caught by the park service. Yeah. Oh, my God. And it was also starting to become a circus-like atmosphere, like literally. Jumpers started launching themselves off of cliffs on skateboards, off of pogo sticks, and even stilts. I was just sorry, like, what?

The way you said that to launching themselves off of cliffs. Well, it's true. It's something like that. I envision in my mind of like being on a pogo stick on the top of L cap or something similar and just pogoing yourself off of a damn vertical faced 3,000. Like I just cannot even imagine doing that. But for some people that you live for that. You know, that is what you live for.

Again, like I said, the park service nixed the whole trial period. They pulled the permit trial and the pursuit of elusive jumpers continued. Now fast forward back to 1999, shortly after Gumbali died, and an uproar from the community was in full swing. Proponents of legalizing jumps were at the head of organizing a protest to fight for their right to jump within the park. It was clear to the Park Service that this protest was organizing into a demonstration, and in an effort to gain some control, a special agent working for the National Park Service contacted an activist within the movement. After some back and forth and negotiation, a compromise was made. The base jumpers would be allowed to jump from El Cap without fear of chase, but in return, the park service would be allowed to arrest each jumper as they fell,

and each jumper would surrender willingly to arrest and agree to have their gear confiscated afterwards. A crowd of 150 park visitors, park employees, and rangers, media, tourists, and jump activists gathered in the meadow below El Cap, the day of the demonstration, October 22, 1999. It had been determined that four men and one woman was to jump, be arrested, and then go to court, which proponents for the cause would then use as fuel to propel their case for legalization of the sport in the park. Three of the five jumpers bounded off the edge of Alcap and gracefully fell into the arresting hands of the park service. As each person jumped, the crowd would whoop and chant. jump for freedom, yeah, woo-hoo!

And other words of encouragement could be heard from the meadow echoing off the granite walls. As each landed, they'd gather up their shoots and would be swarmed by cameras, interviewers, and awaiting park officials. They would give a statement, shake hands with the National Park Rangers, and then move aside for the next jumper. Jan Davis was fourth. Nicknamed the First Lady of Angel Falls, she was a pro. Her nickname came from the famous jump that she took off of the highest waterfall in the world, Angel Falls, which reaches over 3,000 feet straight into the Venezuelan sky, and she was the first woman to do so. She made hundreds of jumps in her career, often in eye-catching outfits like red lingerie.

She jumped in lingerie? Yes. That's badass. I know. It's like as if you couldn't get more cool. That's a free spirit right there. That is the definition of a free spirit. it, yes. And on this day, she wore another outfit. It was kind of like a poke at the whole situation.

She wore a black and white pinstriped body suit because she was going to be arrested when she landed. She's like, jail. She's like, take me to jail. Like, I get it. So she was poking fun at it and she was really excited to be part of the demonstration. This is something that she's done for years and she was a big part of the base jumping community. Park visitors and media personnel had cameras rolling from the ground, but there were also cameras up at the jump site as well. She can be seen in footage moments before her jump inching towards the edge of New Dawn, an overhang on L-Caps edge that serves as a perfect diving board. It was a beautiful blue October day. Jan's blonde hair moved slightly in the breeze and she

tucked stray pieces behind her ears. Half dome can be seen in the distance. and cheers from supporters from below can be heard echoing off the walls. She jumped straight into the air and outstretched her arms. See ya! Someone can be heard yelling behind the camera moments before her launch and the frame pans from left to right following her as she jumped. Sounds of wind rustling follow and distant cheers from below can be heard between the gusts. The camera zooms in to follow her as. as her black and white-striped body moves farther and farther away as she reached over a hundred miles an hour.

Wow. Seconds ticked by and no shoot. Pull woman, the camera operator can be heard saying, another second, and still no shoot. Dude, she's got problems, man, he says again, and the camera becomes shaky. Jan is plummeting, and the 3,000 feet that once separated her from the earth are now at zero. Dude, oh my God, can be heard before the camera cuts out. Jan had borrowed equipment for this particular jump. Equipment is expensive and valuable to jumpers.

Knowing that it was going to be confiscated by park officials, she opted to forego the use of her own and instead elected to borrow gear. However, this gear was different in one very important way, the location of the ripcord that would release her shoot. On her gear, it was at the small of her back, and in the footage, you can see her reaching and scrambling for it as the seconds pass. The gear that she borrowed, however, had a rip-cord location on the side of her leg. Whether she was unfamiliar with its location or forgot amidst the adrenaline rush and panic is really hard to say,

but she never found it. Jan hit the ground at the base of El Cap with such force. Her body made a two-foot crater in the earth. The sound and force of the impact set off car alarms in the parking lot. and silence momentarily fell over the stunned crowd. Park Rangers quickly cornered off the impact site and shielded who they could from the site, especially Jan's husband, Tom, who had been filming her from the meadow below. Oh my God, that's horrible.

Just how traumatic to see. That's your wife. That's your wife. And for just in general, like it's supposed to be a demonstration that is showing that this can be a safe activity. and if it's done in the right circumstances and advocating for it and then just tragedy strikes. It gives me like chills thinking about it. And even being the park service people who have to be there to clean it up and to shield it from other people, like that's so traumatic and sad.

Right. Because it, you know, if there's one thing that this episode has really highlighted that we may talk about later is that it doesn't matter what side you end up falling on as far as, is it right, is it wrong to break the rules? The rules are in place for a reason. Obviously, the park service has to enforce them and there's people that are always pushing the boundaries. It doesn't matter what side you're on. If an accident like this happens, it's still difficult. And it's not like that's lost on park service. Rangers, they're doing their job to enforce the rules as they stand. It doesn't make it easier. It's not like they want to. They want to to be involved in arresting people or having to, like you said, be there to clean up the aftermath of any of these situations, but it's their job.

Well, for me, like, that part right there is, like, no wonder why they don't want this happening. As a park service ranger, of course, you don't want to be on the other end of cleaning something like this up. Like, of course you don't want to be part of this. And it's just like all around on both sides is so sad. It's very difficult. It's a really difficult situation. And needless to say, the protest was not a success for either side. Jan's death served as another huge blow to the community and their cause.

And the park service was reamed for even allowing the demonstration to be permitted in the first place. It was a lose-lose and it was the first and last event. of its kind, as the park service's willingness to consider legalizing base jumping in the park that day ended. But the cat and mouse between base jumpers and the park service went on and continues to this day, and in other parks other than Yosemite. Zion has had its fair share of jumps and deaths as well. Base jumping is illegal in many places like national parks, and even off of various buildings, the B in the base acronym, which sometimes requires jumpers to trespass onto private property. They have to elude security guards and pick locks and, you know, they have to do some shady

things sometimes to gain access to places that are forbidden, but they want to jump off of anyways. But it isn't illegal everywhere. In the United States, BLM land, Bureau of Land Management land, and U.S. Forest Spaces do permit it. But there are problems with this, especially with the rise of wingsuit-based jumping. In this version of the sport, a specialized suit is worn to create a webbing between the jumper's arms and legs. Literally looks like a human flying squirrel,

if you've never seen it. That's exactly what it looks like. These jumps allow more lift, extended airtime, and gliding rather than just a straight free fall. And it really is amazing to watch, albeit anxiety-inducing for me. Skilled wingsuit jumpers come within inches of rock faces.

They weave in and out of trees and tunnels, and they quite literally just glide like birds or flying squirrels. And that is if everything goes right, which of course it doesn't always. Wing suit-based jumping is extremely dangerous and requires an immense amount of training. There's been a huge uptick in the sports popularity, which some correlate with a rise in social media, because a lot of people wear gopros on their heads or have friends filming them or drone footage, and it's a way to get social media views and likes and things like that. But that growth has also correlated with a surge in deaths. National parks have some of the tallest walls and broadest meadows making for safer jumping conditions,

whereas BLM land, such as out in Moab, where the sport is also popular and legal, Those landings are way sketchier, more dangerous, and the time in the air is drastically reduced because those launch spots aren't as tall as some of the cliffs and launch areas that can be found within national parks. So like you said, with skydiving, you have 14,000 feet of time. And then in Yosemite, you know, off of Al Cap, you have 3,400 or so. And where it's legal and you can practice, it's even shorter than that. So the margin for error is significant. Which explains why there are so many people flocking to national parks to do it. Albeit it's illegal.

In their eyes, it's somewhat safer. And also Yosemite is just so magical. I can see the draw of people wanting to do it there. And it's the birthplace of base jumping. Yeah. Because of the rules, regulations, and restrictions in the U.S., many of the wingsuit base jumpers actually head over to Europe, where, Tall cliffs in Switzerland, Norway, France, Italy.

They're much more accessible, have fewer regulations, and are great areas to practice wingsuit-based jumping. But not everyone can afford trips to Europe. The sport itself, when done properly, is wicked expensive just on its own without travel costs associated with it. Well, I can imagine a wingsuit is not cheap. You're not going to get the Walmart version of a wing suit when you're jumping off of a cliff right the gear that's a good point the gear is expensive especially when you want when your life's on

the line like that you want top of the line equipment you're not going to yeah you're not going to cheap out on anything right so there's that and due to its extreme dangers experts recommend intense training and obviously extreme caution practice while training and this means lots and lots of practice first with plain old, regular old, boring skydiving without... Regular old boring skydiving. Who wants to do that? So skydiving, you do it without a wingsuit. And then they recommend doing skydiving with a wingsuit,

followed by regular base jumping without a wing suit. And then you tack on base jumping from various heights and locations, with various difficulty levels, without a wing suit. before you add on wingsuit flying. As an apprentice, like you're studying under someone who's already an expert. So all of these level ups and progressions and training takes years and thousands and thousands of dollars. It is not cheap to practice skydiving or base jumping.

So pile that, all of that on top of some of the best places to practice are restricted and you can't get to them. it makes the sport difficult to partake in doing all the right things the right way, you know, taking your time, doing things slowly, going to the right places that are legal to go, et cetera, et cetera. It's a process that not everyone has the time, patience, or money for, so not everyone goes about it that way. Cutting corners in the sport has led to a lot of deaths, but accidents do happen no matter how experienced or by the book a person may be. To say that Dean Potter was experienced would be.

be a vast understatement. At 43 years old, the professional climber, line walker, free soloist, and jumper was considered a global leader in a wingsuit. He was a record setter and was named adventurer of the year by National Geographic. His outdoor pursuits were unmatched. He had been jumping, illegally in Yosemite since 2003, filming, photographing and posting his jumps either at on or at dusk to avoid detection. The National Park Service were well aware of all of his pursuits, but never actually caught him. He didn't always jump in Yosemite. He traveled the world. He even produced a short film about base jumping with a little twist. When Dogs Fly premiered at the Mountain Film Festival in Telluride, Colorado in May of 2014. This film chronicled all of Dean's

adventures base jumping with his miniature Australian cattle dog named Whisper on his back. throughout the Swiss Alps. He had his dog on his back. Yes. I don't know if that's really cute or I hate it a lot. So I at first, when I read it, I was like, what the hell? Like, why would you ever do that? Yeah.

But I will say after researching Dean and how he pursued the sport and all of the thought and safety measures that he put into the sport. And he like had a specialized bag with all of the. I can want to say airbags, but there were like air cushions and the dog had doggles and she was strapped in with all these specialized things. Like it wasn't like he just threw her in his backpack, North Face backpack and jumped off a cliff. Like it was way different than that. I will say I would never feel comfortable doing it for my dog, but every possible precaution that he could have taken, he did with Whisper. Did Whisper like it? So, I mean, in some of the footage, because

So the film is short. It's like less than a half an hour. It's not a feature length film. And you can look it up on YouTube or Vimeo or whatever. And she would get excited to go climbing and adventuring with him and like get all excited to go into his backpack. And then she would just sit there, you know, with her dog goes because there's footage of her, you know, in the bag. And when they'd land, she'd come out and she'd be wagging her tail and like running around and barking and yipping and things like that. And. It appears as if she was cool with it, but, you know, who am I to say? I'm not a dog. I'm not her. But I don't know. I just thought that it was very interesting to watch. And he jumped with her often, not all the time, but she was always a part of the adventures that he went on with his girlfriend, Jen. As long as she's, as Lysper is cool with it. I'm cool with it. Okay. Well, Whisper is alive and well, just so everyone is aware. in an interview with National Geographic, Mary Potts questioned Dean Potter about his adventure choices along with the film. She asked how he coped with the fact that so many base jumpers were dying, one of which was a close friend of Deans who had died jumping in Zion. His answer reflected the importance he placed it on safety, top-of-the-line gear, and attempts at eliminating human error when conditions didn't feel right. So he was a big advocate for knowing when to call it if something didn't feel right. It didn't matter how much preparation and time you put into a certain jump.

If something was off, it was okay to turn back and that you should turn back and not go forward with the jump just for the sake of doing it. This sentiment was also reflected in other magazine and video interviews he gave throughout the years. He also questioned why jumping in U.S. Parks was illegal. To him, it made a little sense that people could literally walk a tightrope, free solo, or paraglide in the parks, but not base jump. In 2015, he remarked that he was starting to feel a shift in the park system in regards to their feelings about people jumping. He wrote that while park rangers still upheld and enforced the law, for the most part, they were no longer hunting down people, hiding in the trees, waiting for them, and pursuing them to the extent that they want. months did in the late 90s and early 2000s. But that didn't mean that anyone got free passes, and Dean was very well aware of that. In 2006, the National Park Service updated its management

policies, which allowed individual parks to make decisions about base jumping, meaning that while there was no nationwide ban anymore, each park could make up its own mind regarding the issue. So if, I don't know, Acadia wanted to say that base jumping was okay, they were allowed to do that. Okay. There was no nationwide ban anymore. But Yosemite did not change its stance. That didn't deter Dean, though.

In May of 2015, Dean and his climbing partner, Graham Hunt, as well as Dean's girlfriend, Jen Rapp and his dog whisper, climbed to Taft Point, which looms thousands of feet above Yosemite Valley. Both men had jumped and flown from here before, and both took a leap, one after the other, off the face of the cliff. Jen photographed them from above with whisper by her side until they disappeared around a notch. She thought that they appeared lower than normal, and her concerns grew worse when she heard a dull thump sound. She waited for any more clues, but when none came, she rushed down to the valley and met Rebecca Hain, which was Graham's girlfriend, not knowing if they were injured or hiding from Rangers or if they were arrested when they landed or tangled up in truth.

somewhere, they waited it out. They searched local hangout spots, hoping that maybe they successfully landed and were just grabbing a celebratory drink afterwards. But when they didn't find them out there, they went home and waited for them to show up. But when they didn't, they notified the park service, and a few hours later, search and rescue was launched. A helicopter searching over the top of a rock formation called Lost Brother spotted the two men. They were both deceased, appearing to have crashed into the wall, and neither of their parachutes had ever been deployed. So he both side at the same time? Yeah, on the same jump.

Wow. Oh, my God. Dean Potter was just one of many base jumpers who advocate for maximizing safety within the sport. This includes regulations, access to emergency services, and putting boundaries into place. Those who are in favor of supporting the extreme sport say that the anxiety and fear of being sent to jail can cloud judgment when it comes to jumps. Also, being restricted to jumping at dawn and dusk not only provides low light conditions, shadows casted by the rising or the setting sun can play tricks on your eye and alter your decisions. Author Katie Wilk wrote an article for Outward On and brings up another point held by the National Park base enthusiasts. She says that many people

believe the ban was based off the deaths, but points out that there were three things. 4,467 people that required search and rescue assistance in the year 2014 alone in Yosemite. And only three of them were base jumpers. Okay. So it's not a big. The rest were probably like hikers and families visiting and things like that. Yep. So everybody else on that list were partaking in legal activities. And they required the majority of the search and rescue efforts in that particular year. But the National Park Service has rebutted that take. Zion Park Ranger Ray O'Neill was quoted by National Geographic as saying, quote, The problem with base jumping in national parks was not necessarily one of safety or rescue costs.

The reason we would like to discourage it is not so much because of the danger of it, but the spectacle of it. We like to think that the people come here to enjoy the scenery and not the spectacle of people jumping. So essentially, the park service says that activity. within the park must do no harm and enhance park purposes, values, and visitor experiences. There's also a concern that it would taint the natural atmosphere within the park, which some combat by pointing to, well, look at any highly visited national park in a peak season. There's shoulder to shoulder tourists. There's RVs stacked one on top of the other. There's traffic jams. That's not a natural landscape. Also, there's always climbers, too.

Well, that's the other thing. There's always climbers in whether you're in Yosemite or if you're, I was at Devil's Tower in Wyoming. And there were so many climbers up there. And that's not like a natural spectacle. But there were a lot of them up there. Right. So there's arguments on either side for literally every single point that somebody brings up. And they both have validity in their own ways.

which is why this is such like a hot button issue and one that isn't easily navigated because, you know, like there is no easy answer. Cindy Purcell, who's the chief ranger of law enforcement for Zion, weighed in on the issue, saying that if that national park was to consider allowing base jumpers, they would have to take a lot of things into consideration, including the environmental impact that it would have on the land when people are landing in different areas. If it's a repetitive landing in only certain areas, how is that going to affect the environment in that areas? If there's fragile vegetation in the area, how is that going to impact it? How would it impact other visitors? Is it going to create a spectacle?

And she was quoted as saying, we always have to ask the question, how does it relate to the purpose of the park? Is the spectacle in Zion the geology or is the spectacle watching somebody fly off of cliffs? So again, back to the circus-like draw of a bit of a spectacle. You know, you say that, but also part of just advocating for the other side of with base jumping and stuff, part of the draw of the parks is, yeah, there's this beauty there. But it's the experience there. I mean, you hike there because it's so beautiful and it's so amazing. And these people are going out there because this is such a beautiful and amazing experience

for them. So that's, there are people like this, people who do base jumping or solo climbing or something. something just different in their minds. You know, there's something so, no, I don't want to say simple, but so, like, grounded and down to earth. Like, whenever you see documentaries of solo climbers, they just have such a different relationship with the world. And I think it's a really, really cool lovely way to live. If you can, I personally cannot. Right. But I just think that there's definitely something magical in it. So on the other end of that, like, yeah, I get that you don't want it to be a circus, but at the same time, these are other people experiencing the park in a way that's

really beautiful for them. Right. And the other thing is, okay, so you're saying you don't want it to be a spectacle and all of that, but okay, free solo. Have you ever heard of it? Alex Honol. Like, not to poke or highlight any one person or one activity, but all of the reasons that are being brought up from by the National Park Service side or people who support that point of view can easily be rebutted with, okay, so you're saying no to this for this reason, but why is free soloing allowed? Why can you literally string a rope from one sheer cliff face to another and tight rope walk across it? Like, why is that allowed? But you can't jump with a parachute attached to you? Maybe my thought with that is that it can be a lot more private.

If you've seen Free Solo, Alex Honnell, and they do it super private, they get up really early in the morning, they're avoiding people, they're trying to have as little amount of attention as possible, whereas if you're base jumping, people can see you from far away, jumping off of this huge cliff. So I can see how maybe it's a little different, or even if you are slacklining a canyon or something, you kind of find your own little area that maybe doesn't have so many people around. That's a valid point, but I do feel like there would be people who base jump that do it. Like you said, it's their own way of enjoying the park and it's not for anybody else. It's for them. And, you know, some people go to Yosemite to paint or to take photos or to hike or to

wildlife watch. Some people want a free solo and other people want a base jump. So I think it's all about your own individual experience and how you connect with the park. And I think that people who love base jumping are having a really difficult time understanding why their sport is excluded from that. Yeah, I guess going on to the park ranger side of it, kind of what I mentioned before earlier is, yeah, these people love base jumping and this is their passion and it's what they do. But it's the park service and the park rangers that have to reap the consequences of it when something goes wrong and to be the people who have to show up there for someone whose shoot didn't come out and they have to be the ones cleaning that up i mean that has to be i can only imagine like that

has to be extremely traumatic and horrible for those people and to be the people who have to notify their family so at that retrospect of it it's like why are you jumping on off this like you would be alive if you didn't just jump off this cliff and now i'm here cleaning up this horrible tragic really really sad situation when it could have been so avoided so i can definitely see their side of it too of please don't do this i don't want to be the person who has to come and fix this for you yep it's a it's a hard topic because i think that both sides have really really valid points where you are your free spirit. You're trying to live your life the best way you know how and you're following your passion and having the park service chasing you or whatever. I can see how that

can make a huge impact in your decisions. If you're falling and you see a ranger hanging out for you, like maybe you're going to try and turn, which might not be the best option and you'll land somewhere that's not safer or you forget to pull your shoot because you're like, oh, wait. And, you know, like I can see I can see every side of it how it's dangerous for everyone on every end. It's not an easy answer of what's the right decision. Yeah, absolutely not. And I think that's why this episode is just so different from everything we've ever discussed because we haven't come to a topic that warrants a discussion like this and has such good points on either side. And like I said, base jumping is illegal in every national park. But as of right now, there is one national park that has a

slight exception. And that is on one day, every single year, the third Saturday of October, the New River Gorge Bridge in New River Gorge National Park in West Virginia allows base jumping. And other types of jumping. So what they do is they close down their iconic bridge to automobiles, and they open it up to pedestrian activity and jumping activity. I'm pretty sure it's on the anniversary of like when the bridge was completed, just kind of like a celebration type thing. And they open it up to recreational activities that includes base jumping. How high is the bridge?

That's a great question. I have no idea. High enough to base jump off of. The first bridge day was held in the year 1980, and it is the only day that people are legally allowed to base jump off of. the bridge. Crowds will gather to watch jumpers leap off of the bridge and some do it very fashionably. They will catapult themselves off, like shoot themselves off like from a catapult on the side of the bridge. They really take advantage of the opportunity to just do this without fear of

persecution. There's also bungee jumpers and repellers that take part in bridge day as well. And it's not always, you know, fun in games. There have been deaths on Bridge Day. Three of them, actually, since 1980. And they're all tragic in their own ways. The first was in 1983. Someone successfully jumped. Nothing happened during the actual jump, but they drowned in the river because they got tangled up in all of their equipment. And then four years later, another man was killed after his equipment didn't deploy properly, so he just never made the actual jump. And then the most recent death actually occurred in 2006, and it was Brian Schubert. The first man recorded jumping off L-CAP that we talked about in the beginning of the episode. Oh, wow. Yeah, he died because his parachute never,

it didn't deploy in time. It's a kind of a full circle thing. It's really sad. That is really sad. So after decades of debate with valid points from both sides of the argument, it is clear that not everyone is going to agree on this subject. Just because this issue can be divisive, though, it doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people who fall somewhere in the middle of this debate. Some state that the National Park Service and their policies are not to blame for the deaths of people like Jan Davis, Frank Gambali, or Dean Potter, as it was their choice to make the jumps. And it's that word that is what advocates for the sport underline. Choice. They were, want to be offered the choice to partake in jumping or not. No one is forcing them. No one has a gun

put to their head pushing them towards the ledge. But those who support the park service and their current stance on base jumping within the parks understand that like you mentioned before, it leaves the park service in a really difficult position, not only on a personal level having to respond to a jump gone wrong, but there are a lot of resources that need to be dedicated to different search and rescue operations. And a lot of these areas where recoveries happen are in really technical and difficult areas to locate, which then puts park service personnel at risk themselves during a search or a recovery operation. And the one thing that seems very apparent to me throughout the entire research of this episode is that jumpers going jump, you know,

like you can't stop it. You can't stop it. And there's like you said, there's something within them, within their hearts and their minds. And everyone that participates in an extreme sport, like white water rafting, jumping, skydiving, whatever it may be, they feel this calling that they all have a desire to answer. And I think that's the drive behind their actions, whether or not it's legal in the National Park Service locations. So I want to kind of wrap up that section of the episode with a quote from Dean Potter. And he said, I love the idea that I can change the worst possible thing to be the best possible thing. Dying to flying.

Life and death is right there for all of us. It's the most common thing that we all. all share. And that's all I have on the whole base jumping debate and story in Yosemite, but I did want to share one last thing. And it's actually a listener email. Oh, okay. Yes. And we got it semi recently a couple of weeks ago, actually. And it's not exactly tying into base jumping specifically, but it really humanizes the debate because of course, every single episode, we have compassion for the people involved, no matter what it is. If it's a survival story or a plane crash or, I don't know, what else do we do?

Animal attacks. Like, anything where something goes wrong and people are affected, of course. We feel for that, but there's just a different type of feeling you get when someone that you know or someone that someone knows that you knows is affected. It just kind of, it brings it all together. So I wanted to share it with you and with everybody because I thought it was really touching. Hi ladies, I love your podcast and refer people to it all the time. Thank you.

Every time I bring it up, my husband shakes his head and rolls his eyes because he thinks I'm obsessed. I think this story would be perfect for your podcast, but if not, I hope you'll enjoy it anyway. I moved to a new school when I was in seventh grade and didn't know a soul. On the bus ride to school on my first day, a drop-dead gorgeous boy sat next to me and introduced himself as Nolan. He ended up being my first real friend in my new school. The classes I had with him were always my favorite. He was friends with everyone and all the girls had crushes on him. My mom referred to him as the Disney boy because he was so cute he looked like he should have been on the Disney Channel. Nolan ended up switching schools and I didn't see him much for a few years. Fast forward to 10 years later,

I was on a hiking trip in Moab. My friend and I were waiting in line for our breakfast burritos when I heard a familiar voice call my name. I turned around to see the same sweet face I used to know so well. We hugged, chatted a bit, and promised to keep in touch. Walking away from him, my friend turned to me and said, He is so sweet. He's friends with everyone he meets. He was actually living in Moab, climbing and base jumping in the surrounding areas. A few more years went by and we lost touch again. One day, I was scrolling through Instagram when I came across a friend's story. She was asking for good vibes and prayers for her brother, whose friend had just fallen while climbing the El Gigante cliff face in Mexico. I actually knew my friend's brother much better than her. His name was Aaron, and my heart sank with the

realization that Nolan was his best friend and climbing partner. I messaged my friend and asked if it was Nolan that had fallen, and when she told me that it was, I sat my phone down and cried. I hadn't seen him in years, and somehow I could still hear his voice. Remember the exact color of his eyes and feel the warmth of his hugs. The world felt darker, sadder, and colder. I called my husband, who went to the same school as us but ran in a different circle, and he immediately had the same reaction. He was the nicest guy. He was friends with everyone, he said. Within a day of watching Nolan fall, Aaron was rescued and later returned to recover his best friend's body. Alongside Nolan's girlfriend and other seasoned climbers, I've attached a couple of articles on his story and

Aaron's Instagram because he recounts the experience minute by minute and his memoir is both chilling and touching. Thank you again for making such an amazing podcast, Ash. So I looked up Nolan's story and it's pretty much exactly what Ash described. The two of them, Aaron and Nolan, were climbing legally in Mexico and Nolan had actually went to rest on a little ledge and the ledge broke and he fell. And his other friend, Aaron, was stranded in the middle of the cliff face and couldn't get to him. And where the location was, it was really isolated and it took a long time to notify proper search and rescue and all of that. But by the time they got there, Nolan had already passed away. So I think it's just a really great reminder that even though Aaron and Nolan were

climbing legally. There is like this cloud surrounding debate in regards to breaking rules like we covered in this episode. There are people who whenever they hear of someone dying while maybe breaking a rule or maybe not doing something they should have, they'll kind of write off that person and be like, well, they broke the rules, like what did they expect? Type of thing. That's a lot of the reaction in the writing that I found during research of people who are against legalizing, base jumping in parks. Yeah, and hearing emails like that, it just humanizes things where it's like everyone has a loved one and everyone has friends and people who really cared about them. And regardless, if there was a rule being broken, which there wasn't in this case, but regardless, that's still a person. And yeah, that's so devastating. That's really, really sad.

And I feel like I've said that a lot this episode, but it is. It's just so tragic because you just know that every single one of these stories are young people. Right. And they're just people who are out doing what, you know, answering the call. And it's ironic that you just said that because literally the last, it's like we're friends or something and have the same viewpoints. Because I on it, the last few sentences that I wrote is people who participate in these activities are people. loved ones and they deserve just as much compassion as someone who may have passed away in a tragic quote unquote legal accident. A loss of life is still a loss of life and in a time where it seems that most of the issues we face are divisive, I hope that no matter what side you fall on, we can all come together to remember that these are still people's loved ones. They're still people and it's still a loss. Because in situations like this, when there's, you know, it can be easily into one side versus the other, it doesn't matter when there's an outcome like this. And I hope that everyone remembers that because it's easy to get caught up in what side you're on. And it just doesn't

matter in the end. So thank you, Ash, for writing that in because Nolan's story was one that I spent some time looking into. And he actually does have a GoFundMe set up his girlfriend and friends and family set up for him. It was about a year ago that this happened, but it's still active. So I'm going to put it in the show notes in case anybody wants to look into it and donate to his family. And I'm also going to link there's two documentaries that I told you I are on my list to watch now. One of them is a 2015 documentary called Sunshine Superman and it's about Carl Bonnish. And the other is just that short little 30 minute when dogs fly film by Dean Potter. So if you want to look into those, you certainly can. And I'll link those in the show notes. And that's

it. Very cool. Thank you for taking us back to Yosemite and kind of around to Zion and Mexico. And it's always interesting to hear about stories like this that are happening inside of the national parks and was definitely different than anything that we covered. So I'm glad that you brought attention to it because it will make me look at Yosemite a little bit different next time I'm looking at El Cap. Well, I hope everyone enjoyed that little debate session or whatever you want to call it. I actually, I don't really have a side, I guess, when it comes to this, we already discussed it. But there are just, I can see points on all sides. And it is just, it's not black and white to me. And that's what makes it so difficult. So I haven't had any personal experience that

pushes me hard to one side or the other. So for now, I'm just kind of hanging out in the middle. Yeah, I definitely can see the sides of everyone involved. And I don't know if I could say that I'm one way or the other. It just sounds like there needs to be some type of change to make it conducive for everyone involved. Yeah, and a lot of base jumpers that, I mean, advocate for that. They want to be safe in their sport and they want their fellow adventures to be safe as well. They don't want to be hiding around and doing things in the shadows and they want their sport to be as safe as possible. And it's hard to do that when it's not legal. So yeah, that's why they're such a big push for it to become legal as well. Anyways, thank you so much. We do have one thing to say. We won't see you next

Monday, unfortunately. We'll see you on Thursday and Monday because on Thursday we have a bonus episode coming out. We are going to start doing our trail tale episodes frequently. We're going to do them once a month. So if you have any trail tales of your own, send us an email at NPAD Stories at gmail.com or go to our website NPAD podcast and go to the contact link and you can fill out a submission form there. We love hearing from you guys so much and we don't want to have to wait to do them every once in a while and take up a regular episode slot.

We want just more, more and more. So here we are giving it. All right, everyone, we'll see you on Thursday. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Goodbye. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week.

If you have a trail tale you'd like to share, send us an email at NPAD Stories at gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Become an outsider by joining our Patreon where you'll gain access to monthly bonus stories and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our partners, you're supporting our show. To access our special discount codes along with source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For information on the show, to shop our merch store, sign up for our newsletter and more, visit NPADPodcast.com. And if you're enjoying the show, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a

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