National Park After Dark - For the Fallen: Project Recover ft. Derek Abbey

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Today we are joined by Derek Abbey, Project Recover’s President and CEO to speak about the organization - a collaborative effort to enlist 21st century science and technology in a quest to find and repatriate the nearly 81,000 Americans missing in action since World War II. He lets us in on the important work the project does around the world, and the impact it has on countless families. He also touches on “Angel Taps” and spooky encounters he’s experienced on missions and agrees that sometimes help from the other side can lead us in the right direction.Watch the documentary, To What Remains, HERE and find more information on Project Recover HERE.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Vionic Shoes: Use code NPAD to get 15% off your order when you log into your account.  Acorns: Use our link or download the app to start saving and investing in your future. Lume Deodorant: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with@lumedeodorant and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code NPAD at LumeDeodorant.com! #lumepodMicrodose Gummies: Use code NPAD to get free shipping and 30% off your first order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Monday AI agents took over my work. And I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. They live inside Monday.com. So they see the full picture, my work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the data. It's safe, which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff,

knowing everything runs smoothly in the background. It's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress.

Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Hi everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We're excited to have you here today because if you didn't listen to Monday's episode, go back, rewind, go back to Monday, listen to Monday's episode because we're doing an interview with someone who is directly correlated with the story and stories behind Monday's episode where we talk about World War II recovery efforts for some servicemen who crashed in a B-24 plane. And today we're going to talk more about that. and about Project Recovery.

And today we're welcoming Derek Abbey, PhD, Project Recover's president and CEO, to speak about Project Recovery, a collaborative effort to enlist 21st century science and technology in a quest to find and repatriate the nearly 80,000 Americans missing in action since World War II. Derek grew up in Seattle and at 17 joined the Marine Corps. As the years passed, he rose through the ranks of the Marines, received his undergraduate degree from Oregon State and his doctorate from the University of San Diego, during which he found his passion for connecting veterans with educational opportunities, which led up to his current role with Project Recovery. Derek met Pat Scanan, the co-founder of Project Recovery in 2004. On his very first

mission to Palau, Derek helped locate an aircraft whose pilot was actually a member of his squadron as well, and the rest is history. He served for 23 years in the United States Marine Corps, and Since then, his academic research and post-military career have focused on connecting veterans with college opportunities alongside his involvement with Project Recovery. Derek is married to his wife, Michelle, and has a son. In his personal time, Derek enjoys the great outdoors and is currently in the process of attempting to run a marathon in each state and is on a quest to visit all of the U.S. national parks. Something I think we can all relate to, but maybe not the marathon part.

But checking off the list, I think we... The national parks for sure. We got that. And very inspirational about the marathons. Yes. We can only wish. I wish I was that cool. But alas.

Alas. I can't run. We'll just cheer on from the sidelines. So we are so happy to have him on to speak about the important work of Project Recover and all that it's doing for families here in the United States and around the world. Welcome Derek to National Park After Dark. Welcome Derek to National Park After Dark. Thank you so much for being here with us.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to join you. I'm excited about the conversation. We are thrilled to have you here because we connected a few months ago. We're finally having the conversation. But we're going to focus heavily, obviously, on Project Recovery and the documentary to what remains, which highlights Project Recovery in so many ways and different stories that are tied to the initiative. But just to kind of lay the groundwork and get everyone familiar, what is Project

Recover and how did it begin? Yeah, Project Recover is a nonprofit organization that's been around in some capacity for three decades, actually over three decades now. And our primary mission is to search for, locate, and ultimately discover and repatriate American service members that are missing in action from our previous conflicts. And we've done an extensive amount of work in Palau, but we've been to 23 countries all over the world. We've been associated with locating and documenting sites associated with more than 300 missing Americans. And of those 70 have been declared buried at C-17, repatriated to their families. And the rest are in

some sort of open status. We're expecting as many as 25 repatriations within the next year from our work. Wow. That's incredible. And how did it all get started? Well, it started with our founder, Pat Scanan. He was actually on a mission in 1993, a separate mission, not really to Project Recovery, searching for a trawler, a Japanese trawler that was sunk during World War II by at the time a gentleman named Ensign George Herbert Walker Bush, who would later on become the president of the United States. So this site had some historical value and interest. And so the team went out and started searching for this vessel off the coast of Fulau and actually found it really, really quickly. And Pat and his wife had some spare time on the backside of that.

And instead of doing what everybody else does when they go to Palau, and that's go to these incredible dive sites and locations and looking at beautiful fish and animals, they decided to ask a guy to take them to World War II stuff. There were nine major air campaigns that took place in Palau or over Palau, and then an amphibious landing that took place on the island of Pelaloo, which is one of the islands of Palau. And so on that tour, the guide took him to this wing, a large wing in relatively shallow water. And Pat asked the questions, well, what happened to this airplane and what happened to the crew? And the guide didn't have an answer to either one of those questions.

And so he just took it upon himself to investigate what happened to this aircraft. And through that process, discovered that there were a number of aircraft shot down and a number of of people still missing from that conflict. And he just started to go back to Palau on its own to document these sites, find these sites, and then hopefully find the people. And then through that process, realized it's not necessarily the safest thing to be traips in through the jungle by yourself or dive in on these sites by yourself. And so he started gathering like-minded individuals into a group that was originally called the Bed Prop Project. And they would do one mission per year to the nation of Palau, all self-funded. And that was 30 years ago, and now it's, it's growing to what it is today in

Project Recovery. It's incredible how much it's grown since then. And I, we spoke about this a little bit before we started recording, but I'm reading a book. And for people listening who listen to Monday's episode, we'll also get to, um, listen to this story and hear about the book as well. But inside of it, it talks about when him and his wife go out and they find the wing of this. And his first thought is wow, this is an American plane. And then he's like, wait a second, this is an American grave site. And this needs to be looked into more. This is really important. Why don't we know this? And I think that sentence and that book for me was like, wow, this is, it was just so mind-blowing and it made it feel so, so important to the reader. And then hearing this mission, it just really brings it all together. And it's incredible how far it's grown since then.

Well, you just shared that and it gave me goosebumps thinking about it because, you know, we've found several sites since then and it is. You find the site and you realize very quickly if it's the site that we're looking for that this is associated with at least one person's death and it is their grave site. So it's very much a solemn moment. But you are flooded with these emotions that go through you, whether you're, you know, swimming around a coral head and this wreckage comes into view or you're moving through the jungle and pushing. some branches or leaves aside and then there you see it. And just realizing, you know, now these these sites have been missing for as long as eight decades. And you're the first one to lay eyes on them and then quickly realize that, you know, families have been waiting for answers to what happened to their loved ones for far too long. And they're going to know soon what happened to their loved ones. And most of the time, these families have no clue that anybody is even looking. And so it's a lot of excitement, a lot of other emotions flood through you, just knowing that they're going to have answers and hopefully some healing associated with these discoveries.

Absolutely. And how did you get involved with the project initially and where are you at now within the organization? It was a while ago. So it was 20 years ago. I was an active duty Marine. I was in a Marine Corps fighter squadron, VMFA 121, flying out of Miramar. But I had just returned from a deployment to the Middle East and had come back and was relatively young in the squadron, but I was the historical. officer and the phone rang in the ready room one day and the duty officer picked it up. And since I was the historical officer, he handed me the phone. There was a gentleman on the other end of the line named George Biarannock. And he was a World War II veteran from the squadron. And he was looking for contact information related to other World War II veterans from the squadron. And we didn't have any of those records on hand. But I just asked him, why do you want this information? And he said,

oh, we have a reunion every year. This year we're getting together in Indiana and the World War II veterans come together. And I said, well, that's really cool. Can I come? And he's like, yeah, come on out. And so me and a colleague took an F-18 out and joined World War II cadre. And they were like, oh, my goodness, this is amazing. Tell us about Iraq and F-18s. And we said, you know, who cares about Iraq and F-18s? Tell us about World War II and Corsairs.

And they said, who cares about World War II and Corsairs? But there was a bond across time in that moment. And through those engagements with those World War II veterans, they said, you know, you need to meet this guy Pat Skin. And he comes to our reunions every year and gives an update on what he's doing in Palau. as well as interview fellow veterans to get their story and hopefully find any evidence that could lead to future discoveries. Well, I had to leave town relatively quickly, and I missed Pat by about 20 minutes that year. But working with that World War II group, I said, you know, why don't you come out to San Diego next year?

And we'll have the old squadron and the new squadron. We'll do the reunion in San Diego. And they just love that. And Pat joined that year. Him and I met, became fast friends. And shortly after that, he invited me to join the organization. And to me, it just aligned with my values. It was the right thing to do.

And I had the capability to support. I didn't know how I would support. I just said, you know, I could carry heavy stuff if you need and traips through the jungle. I know how to scuba dive. And so that was joining the organization. And I was deploying quite a bit. So it took me a while to go on my first mission. And a few years later, it came back from another deployment to the Middle East and unpacked

my sea bag, packed my suitcase and joined the team in Palau. And we were searching the waters and the jungles of Palau that year. And we had a discovery, an MIA discovery. and it just so happened that it was a member of my squadron for World War II. And so I was hooked, as you can imagine. And from that point, just grew in the organization. It became a big part of my life. I would save up money every year to go on a mission and block out my leave time.

And so I could support the mission. And then grew, became a team leader. And then as a nonprofit group, became a board member. And about five years ago, took over as president and CEO of the organization. Wow. That sounds like it was all meant to be. Like all the pieces fit together. and brought you to exactly where you're supposed to be right now?

Well, we don't believe in coincidences. We've had all sorts of unexplainable things happen on many of these missions. And so we call them angel taps because somebody's telling you something, like tapping you on the shoulder. Hey, pay attention to this. You should be doing this. And so, yeah, lots of unexplained circumstances or unexplained events. And that's just one of them.

It was meant to be, like you said. Yeah. I know you said in a previous conversation that we've had privately that there are some spookier things that have happened in some of your missions or your time spent on the islands. So we'll get into that in a little bit. But first. Yeah, teaser, because I don't want to forget. But first, let's kind of lean into to what remains because the documentary obviously highlights

Project Recovery and all of the work that the organization does. And I've shared this with you before, but Cassie and I watch a lot of. documentaries. We watch a lot of film and different things for, you know, stories. And this documentary was, it just blew a lot of previous documentaries of different things out of the water. It's just so well done. And it's so touching. And I'm not even, I personally don't have any ties to the military. My some of maybe my distant family members have served and things like that, but I, I'm not like a military family and I don't have that type of tie, but it still was so impactful just as a fellow American and somebody who can sympathize with feeling so emotional for people who have lost family members and want to know answers and about their deaths. And I just wanted to say that, first of all, such a good documentary. I know everyone is going to go. straight to YouTube because that's where I watched it, right? YouTube. Yeah. Yeah, it's on all your favorite streaming platforms. Yeah, so you can go ahead and watch it. I watched it on Amazon. Yeah,

so yeah, you can access it freely. But as far as the documentary goes, the thing that struck me the most was at the beginning stages of when you said Pat Scanan just kind of started and came across this piece of wreckage fairly easily, but that's not the norm. And, And how difficult it is to find these pieces of wreckage, whether it's in the jungle or in the ocean, and just starting with minimal technology, aka like a mask on your face and just scanning the ocean floor, it's incredible. Can you talk a little bit about the evolution of the technology and the project and how it's grown leaps and bounds since its beginnings? Yeah.

A lot has changed. I mean, even since I started 20 years ago, and I'd say about 10, well, actually going further back than that. I mean, when we started, it was just very, very basic, basic scuba diving, boots on the ground, machete and hand and a compass. GPS technology has advanced since then. And one of the biggest things that really helped us with our work was Google Earth, the ability to track, you know, our roots in the jungle, where we're deep, deep in the jungle. So it took a little while for the GPS technology to catch up. And it's actually, believe it or not, still catching up in some spots because the very, very dense jungle, we just don't get signals sometimes.

So you still go back to boots on the ground, machete in hand, and make sure you always have a compass in your pocket because you might need it to get out of that dense jungle. But underwater, things have advanced incredibly. So when we started, it was basic scuba. We would get online, you know, and just swim grids underwater. And using that, quote unquote, technology, it would take hundreds of years to find all these sites. And then in about 2012, just by chance, I know one of those angel taps, we ran into representatives from the Scripps Institution of Oceanography and the University of Delaware that were working in Palau on some other stuff, coral health, other oceanography missions. But they had these automated underwater vehicles to map the ocean floor.

And, you know, we asked them what they were doing. They asked us what we were doing. And they had the technology and we had the mission. and we agree to start working together. Unofficially at first, but they're automated underwater vehicles, use side scan sonar and other technologies. And what they can do is map the ocean floor and create an image of the ocean floor,

or at least shadows and highlights. And we can review that while sitting on a chair, you know, in a dry space, and then pull out points of interest and then go investigate those points to determine very, very quickly, is it man-made, is it an airplane, is it the airplane that we're looking for? and then quickly move on to the next point if it's not. Well, that's just saved us tons and tons and tons of time in our searches, and that technology even continues to advance.

So when you watch, too, it remains in the interviews in that, Eric Terrell talks about how excited we were to search 20 square kilometers that year within about a four-week period. And today, we can search about 100 square kilometers in the same amount of time. And the resolution has advanced so much that back then it was about a mean, of resolution and now it's getting down to one or two centimeters. So I was just up in Maine last year working off the coast of Kenny Bugport with the UDL team and we were viewing the imagery. And you could see the lobster traps on the ocean floor and the lines coming up to the surface

from those traps. An interesting side note is now that technology is being used to find lost lobster and crab traps because these traps are lost off the coasts, but they still work. And so sea life goes in, eats the bait dies, more sea life goes in. And million of millions of sea life are lost because of these lost traps. Well, now we can recover them using this technology and have a positive impact on the environment as well as the fishing industry. And so that's advanced. We're going a lot deeper, finding sites a lot deeper than what we were doing when we started. You know, we were almost restricted to about 100 feet. And now we have located sites down to 1,000 feet. The next step is how deep can we do recovery? And recovery is going

deeper and deeper with more advanced technology and all sorts of different things as far as scuba technology or at least working underwater. But the terrestrial or land stuff still lacks, is lagging behind, believe it or not. It's almost counterintuitive where when we go into the jungles, some of these thick, thick jungles, we're still, you know, using the basics. But we're working with a variety of organizations to see what we can do as far as testing to new technology. We just had a really cool meeting with a potential partner about taking imagery of some of the plant life and using different images to determine if that plant has been compromised by a foreign entity of some sorts of a plane crash there. Is there elevated iron in the soil or maybe it was

contaminated by fuel or oil when the crash happened? And it's not visible to the naked eye, but using some of these technologies, we might be able to tease that out in some of these jungles. So just absolutely amazing things that if you had asked me, you know, even 10 years ago, you know, if I could fathom where we'd be working and what we'd be working with and on today, I would have been able to cup with an accurate answer, and I certainly don't know what we'll be doing in five or ten years. That's incredible. And just when you're talking about all these things where there's scuba diving, there's GPS technology, now there's these imaging that's happening to make this project work as a whole. The first thing that really comes to my mind is what kind of people

are working on this project? Because it seems like it's going from, we have people in the military, we have people working in conservation. Like, what is what is the scope of people that are working on this project. Well, they're amazing people, that's for sure, or at least that's what I think. Yeah. This mission attracts all sorts of different people, not just people with the military. Like Danielle said, you know, it's a human mission. And kind of another sidebar, you know, we have to do this work in foreign nations. We do work in the United States, but for the most part, we work overseas. And, you know, when we first start doing the work, they're kind of like, what are you trying to do? And once they realize that we're not searching for

gold that we're searching for people. They're very quickly becomes a values overlap. This human connection. So the best example is Palau where for a long time we were coming and are like, these guys aren't diving in the places that most people go diving and they're horrible places to dive. Why would you dive there? There's more beautiful places to dive. Then they realized, oh, we're searching for people. And the Palawan believe that when you die, you return to the island of your mother. And so when they found out that we were trying to bring service members home, then there became that values overlap and it very much became their mission and that's very supportive of this work. And we've seen that over and over again in other countries. And so people are

attracted to the mission for a variety of reasons, but ultimately they think it's the right thing to do. And I mean, absolutely incredible people submit their information to become members. And we have a long process to interview them to make sure that they'll fit well with the team and that they bring a skill set that would advance the mission. And sometimes, you know, people show up and we're not really sure how they might support. And then they express how they think they can advance the mission. And we just love that because we love innovation and finding new ways of advancing this mission. And so people come from all sorts of corners of life, from engineers to, of course, military background, but also investigators and police.

And then just people that they just think it's the right thing to do and they want to help in some way. And I joke because we have a relatively new member on one of our most recent missions. He is kind of intimidated by the group of this is one of his first missions. And he's like, you know, I don't know how I can really help. I don't have the same pedigree as some of these other people. And so, you know, I can carry heavy stuff and do manual labor. And I said, you know, careful what you wish for because that's the same thing I said when I started this work. And now I'm interviewing people.

And I think, both Pat Scannon and I both joke about it all the time. It's like, we don't know if we would make the cut now if we were interviewing ourselves. But I also say that people go through three different phases of membership. The first one is just that they're attracted to the mission. and it seems like the right thing to do. There's some sort of values overlap or the reason they want to contribute. And it's also adventurous, you know, it's a lot of fun. You're creating an incredible impact.

So they're attracted for all sorts of different reasons, and they go through the process and they become a member, and that's the first phase. And then the second phase is at some point they're going to participate in a discovery. And it could be their first mission like me, or it could be well down the road, many missions later. But there'll be a discovery, and it's this kind of epiphany. It's like, wow, this is real. All this blood, sweat and tears is paying off.

All the flood of emotions that I've already explained and your personal thoughts and everything occurs. So you're flooded with that. And now it's a reality and it's just something even more. And that's the second phase. And then the final phase is when that person is or people are identified and returned to their families, we've been invited to bear witness to these memorials and celebrations. And so once you see that, you see what an incredible impact this work has on these families

and the communities around them and the nations as a whole. And so it's life-changing for those families, but it's just as life-changing for each and every one of our members when we bear witness to that. It's one of the few things where you get to witness the impact that your work has firsthand on people and communities. And it's very, very special. I can only imagine. I mean, and you can kind of see that also shine through in pieces of the documentary as well. So it's a really, it's a really touching weight. Like you said, it's a human connection. It doesn't matter if you're military or not or have personal connections to the people. It just, it's a human thing. And I think everyone can relate to that. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything

you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L. Every year after, The Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. I have to ask, is there a particular formula or way that you choose what missions or what missing in action, either planes or individuals you're going to go after? Or is it just kind of like whatever you think is in the area or? Yeah.

Yeah. No, science and evidence drives our mission, believe it or not. And so we are always doing proactive research to build cases. And currently our historian and the team have built out a database that has about 700 plus cases associated with more than 3,000 missing Americans. And that's of the 81,000 that are still missing. And these are actionable cases, meaning if we had the resources, we could take steps to start working on those cases in the field and some of them we are working on. But we prioritize those basically based on highest likelihood of success, taking a number of factors into place.

So we'll rank them based on the information available. Can we access those sites? Do we have the resources available to execute those missions? Things like that. And then the next thing that we do is what we call campaigning. So are there places around the world where there's a number of losses? Palau being one, Italy, Chuk. We're working in the Baltic.

We'll be in Germany later on this year. So are there places in the world where there's a number of losses? And the reason that we do that is this is not a cheap mission. So it takes a lot to get all the people and equipment to these far off locations. And once we do that, we want to maximize all the resources that we have. So can we work on multiple cases while we're there? And so we prioritize and then we try a campaign as well. And then the third part of it is we're an official partner of the Department of Defense.

And so the Department of Defense or the Defense P.O.W. MIA County Agency DPAA, they will reach out to us as a partner and ask us to execute individual missions from time to time. And but typically it's one piece of the mission set on a specific mission. So that mission set could be research. It could be a search mission. It could be a documentation of a site that has been located already or it could be a recovery. And we can do all of those mission sets both on land and underwater. And so we're one of the, only non-government organizations out there that does that. Wow. That's incredible. And you're saying all these places that you travel across the world, and I just have to ask, how many people to date have you been able to find? So we've located or documented sites associated with about 300 missing service members. And I say that because the number continues to change in a positive way.

It continues to go up. And then of that 300, 70 have been declared buried at sea by the United States Navy. So the assumption is their resting spot will not be disturbed. So recreational divers are not going to go out there. It's hard to get to cold. And so they're going to rest where they lay, but at least the families know exactly where they're at. And 17 have been repatriated, meaning they've been identified, and they've been returned to their families.

The memorials have taken place. We have about 25 right now going through the identification process, meaning we've recovered potential human remains, osseous material and artifacts that are going through the identification process now. And then the rest of the 300 are in some sort of open status, meaning that recovery needs to take place for the most part to recover those remains and then get them home. But all of those numbers, like I said, are continually upticking. And we're working to scale our efforts. We execute now usually between 10 and 15 missions a year between us and our primary partners.

And I'm working really hard to increase that to about 30 missions a year. And it's not to increase just because we want to do work and we want to be bigger. it's really because time is not our friend. And a lot of these sites are eroding or human development is encroaching on them depending on where the sites are. If they are discovered, they may or may not be reported. So we want to work as fast as we can to get that big 81,000 number as close to as possible. And you did mention earlier on that a lot of these families don't even know that you're searching until you kind of just present the final information in a beautiful. bound book with the entire story and everything that happened as far as not only the recovery effort,

but also their loved one's history, their mission with the military, what happened leading up to their deaths. And in the documentary, you highlight one in particular, but also show glimpses of several others that there often isn't like a direct connection with the family members anymore, just based on the time that's passed. You know, maybe. Maybe it's someone's grandfather or great uncle or whatever it is, but it doesn't seem to matter. You know, even if that person didn't meet them in life, the effects of their missing in action or deaths and just like the big question mark is left on their life has trickled down to them. Yeah.

So it's just amazing to see, you know, what has been your experience with that reaction of gratitude and surprise and just disbelief. Yeah, there's actually some research done by Pellinley Boss on what's labeled ambiguous loss. And, you know, almost all of us have had somebody pass away in our life, whether that was a military death or just death in general, which is always tragic. And we mourn those people, but we go through these unspoken processes when somebody dies. We have ceremony around their loss. There's acknowledgement, confirmation, and all that. One thing that happens that we're not completely conscious of is that person's no longer with us and we go through a lot of role changing. So it's like, okay, well, who's going to do this part?

Well, and we figure that out as a family union or whatever. When somebody goes missing, it's a different process. The grieving process is interrupted and each and every family holds on to hope. And they make up stories to fill the void of what happened to their loved ones. And they're almost predictable because we've had these interactions with families so much. You know, they've suffered, they've survived. They were rescued by natives or they have amnesia. They're living another life somewhere just to fill that void to fill the unknown.

But that grieving process is still interrupted and that grief is passed from generation to generation to generation down to people that never had any interaction with this person, never met them firsthand. And we've seen this many, many times. And have been in homes and there's typically an altar of some sort of photos and their medals or something like that. And they're this mythical status. And we've even interacted with families that had been divided based on different stories that each side made up. Neither one was true. They made up stories and then would argue about it. And then now they have the truth and the healing can move forward.

Now they have the answers. You see it. And we've witnessed it over and over. If it's our interaction, because depending on how the process works, most of the time, DOD is the first one to interact with them. And then we follow up with that with engaging with them. But still, they, you know, they're waiting to see what kind of scam we're going to present to them, like we're trying to get resources from them or something from them. And there's this disbelief still.

You can see the grieving process pick up from eight decades later. And then once they get through, okay, they realize that we're not trying to scan them. We're not trying to get anything from them. Then they want to know everything. And they want to meet the members and they want to interact and they have tons and tons of questions. But it has an amazing impact on these families. They have confirmation of what happened to their loved one. This person is no longer a myth.

She is a true hero. And they can completely mourn that loss. And so we've seen families come together at these memorials. Many times I had never met before. And then the communities organically kind of hold them. They come out of the woodwork and really, really hold them. It's an incredibly uniting experience all the way up to the national level. Because, you know, we believe that when you don the cloth of our nation, you swear no to the Constitution that we as a collective, as Americans, make a promise to that individual and their family that should they fall in battle, we'll do everything that we can to bring them home. And there's no expiration date on that promise. And so now that promise is kept. And there's some sort of healing and trust rebuilt within the nation as well. And so it's just absolutely incredible to witness. And even things where families reach out to us and express.

us, you know, hey, we have an MIA in our family. We don't have a lot of information. We'll interact with every single one of those people and share any information that we have. But one of the things that occurs is many times we're the first people that have confirmed or acknowledged the loss of their loved one beyond a Western Telegram. Western Union Telegram that they might have received, their family might have received. And so even though we might not be able to bring their loved one home, even that little bit, knowing that there's people out there that don't know them, I have no connection to them or working on their behalf means a great deal to these families. And we've heard it over and over how much it means.

And then obviously, you know, when you can find somebody and bring them home, it's just, it's, it's very special, that's for sure. I think part of what makes this project so incredible, too, is when you think of World War II, I think a lot of people are like, oh, that was a long time ago. But it wasn't. You think about it. There's World War II veterans, families that are impacted today. I mean, the 1940s, there are people, there are many people who are still alive today who are there and bore witness to that.

And then when you think about the families that are affected, the people who maybe are really affected today are the kids who grew up with parents who lost a dad. And they felt the effects of that their whole lives. And there's just, and they saw that within their family dynamics of how that changed them. And the fact that you're able to get in on this project now, especially there's no. expiration date on when this is important, but right now there's so many people who have been directly affected by it that to be able to do this at the timing that you're doing it is incredible. Yeah, and we definitely acknowledge that. And, you know, we want people to continue to fill the role in our military and you want young people to tow that line and swear that oath to the Constitution.

Well, there needs to be that trust in our nation for them to do that. And some of our branches of service are struggling with that right now. And so we, we think, think we're having an impact not only on this generation, but future generations as well. And then another part of our work is education. We believe in educating the next generation. And keeping these stories alive, we consider ourselves a living memorial. So we work with high school students, college students to, one, present our work and say, hey, this is how this interdisciplinary team comes together with all these people that are incredible in their own fields of work. But now they're coming together as a team to accomplish this very, very complex mission. And every single

piece of that puzzle is required for it to be successful. And what we have discovered is when we get in front of high school students that each one of them can find a piece of the mission that they're interested in and then connect with it. And of course, the students really fall in love with them. We try to bring some cool technology to expose them to. And the students love it, the teachers love it. And so we continue to bring that to communities across the nation as much as possible. But we think it's important to expose this and future generations to this work and these stories and this history, but also, you know, apparently I'm not getting any younger, so somebody's going to have to take over my boots here eventually, and hopefully it's some of these motivated young people.

In your years of working with the project, is there a particular individual or story or family that is stuck with you the most? The cliche answer is the next one, you know. But each one of them is special. You know, I mentioned my first site and it being a member of my squadron. That's It was just the thing that really pushed me into the future, much like Pat, his epiphany when he first saw that wing in shallow water. And the funny thing about that is whenever we bring new members to Palau, we almost make this pilgrimage to this wing to say, hey, this is where everything started. And everybody wants to see it. Everybody wants to like, oh, there it is. Okay, now let's move on with this mission. And so, you know, each and every story, each and every recovery is special.

everyone is unique, but then there's also a lot of similarities to them. And so, you know, my favorite part of the mission is going to small town USA, where it's Portage, Pennsylvania, Finley, Idaho, to witness some of these ceremonies. And we just see the community come out and embrace these families. It's just so special. And of course, Arlington National Cemetery, which is Arlington National Cemetery, it's absolutely incredible to be there as well. But that's the most special part of every mission. You know, the adventure and going out to the jungle and diving in some of these crazy places is fun and exciting. And you're creating an impact. But it's that, you know, tying a bow on the end of it is the really, really exciting part and the whole reason that we do it. And so, yeah, you know, I'll go back to the beginning of my answer.

I said, I think the next one is the most special one. In these, you were talking about revisiting the wreckage for the wing. And it almost surprised me a little bit because for some reason I thought that maybe it wouldn't still be there after. it was found. Is there instances where you actually, where you can take the wreckage with you? I know the primary goal is to find people, but do you ever recover wreckage as well? You know, that's a, that's a great question. And I have friends that I've had a long time and they still introduced me. They're like, oh, this is Derek. He searches for downed aircraft. And I'm always like, no, that's the, that's the, that's the, we're not searching for aircraft. We're searching for aircraft because of the people.

But to answer to your question, the one is illegal to take any type of artifacts in these countries that are over 50 years old to include any aircraft. And the Navy has declared that they forever own any Navy aircraft to include Navy aircraft and Marine Corps aircraft, which is, which actually adds some funny things to the process where we have to get permission to touch a Navy aircraft that we're searching for, even though they don't know where it's at. And we're looking to find it when we find it. And you're the ones who have discovered it. Yeah, so it's almost kind of comical sometimes with the bureaucracy. But no, we actually, any type of site like that is left where it lays. And in places like Palau and other spots, you know, depending on what the site is, yeah, that record stays where it's at.

And so this is historical stuff in a place like Palau. And so that wing, we call it the Dixon wing, is still sitting in the exact same spot. And I'll be in Palau later on this year. And I'm sure we'll make another pilgrimage to it with our new members. so they can see it. And yeah, it's a very, very special place. Wow. And you mentioned, just because you said you can't take that and it's illegal, but you have mentioned you recover artifacts. Are those primarily things that belonged to the people who you're finding? Yeah. When we do a recovery, of course, we're going to recover any ausis material or any potential

human remains. But then the artifacts that we recover are anything that can assist with the identification. So personal items, you know, that makes sense. So dog tags, watches, things like that. But also things like life-saving gear or other things that could help if it's a multi-crew aircraft, like which position was this person in, anything that can assist with the identification. And then everything else is left there. And unless it's unexploded ordinance, which is rendered safe so that that won't do any harm to any people or the environment, as well as any type of toxic material or something that

could damage the environment. So of course, and believe it or not, there could be fuel or oil 80 years later still stuck in these sites. And so we'll work with the appropriate agencies to ensure that that is cleaned up and won't harm the environment in the future. Awesome. Good to hear. And obviously, it probably feels good to do your part with the environment. And going back to Kennebunk support and all that with the lobster traps. It's just such a surprising kind of like benefit to this whole thing. And so that's really cool. But I have to ask now going back to your personal experiences with the kind of creepier side or instances that you've had, you teased us weeks ago about it. And I've been thinking about it for a while. So is this centered mainly in Palau or has it happened in other areas as well?

The ones I can think of have been in Palau. I'm trying to think if we've had any experience. Because it seems like they have, well, they don't only happen. And we've had some spooky stuff happen on water as well. But most of them that I can think of happen like in the jungle. And so we don't only look for downed aircraft. We also search for prisons of war that were executed. It's a lot more difficult to find a burial site in the middle of the jungle than it is to find an aircraft that's been missing for 80 years.

but we still put forth the effort. And so there are some sites that we have narrowed down to some execution sites and burial sites. And they're associated with downed aviators that escape from the aircraft and were captured, as well as UDT members, which were the predecessors to the seals, then as well as some Catholic priests and others that were executed. So we've worked in these jungles and we've had some just really spooky things happen where, you know, the one that I think of is walking through the jungle.

And somebody is like, hey, do you smell that? And it's like, oh, yeah. And it's not a typical jungle smell. And one of them was multiple people smelled Bay Rum, which is an old cologne from the 40s, 50s era that people would wear. And multiple people in the team were like, that's Bay Rum. I smell Bay Rum. And we would go out in the jungle just because we're at night because they're like, oh, who knows? Let's see if something spooky will happen.

Oh, so you're looking for it is what you're saying. for it. Hey, you're looking for Bigfoot. We just want to see if it's out there. And so we'll go out there and we'll stay safe, but we've had crazy things where never seen fireflies before and we're just sitting in this like spots in the jungle where, you know, close to these sites, we're not exactly sure where they are. And then all these fireflies come out and never have seen fireflies in this location before. And then coming out of that, the jungle back to our vehicle, all these frogs were lining the road as we were driving out. And of course, you know, SEALs, UDT members are referred to as Frogman. And so we're like, well, that's spooky. People have heard voices in the jungle on one of the

sites that we're working on right now. We'll be back on that site. It's a really, really dense mangrove jungle. And one of our new members, she was on her first mission last time we were on the site in this jungle. And she says, I swear there was somebody standing next to me and looked and the person's gone. And like multiple events like that, that, you know, of course you can explain them away in multiple ways, but we're like, you know, somebody's trying to tell us something. And like I said, we kind of go back to that angel tap thing. Like, okay, what are you trying to do?

How are you trying to help us solve this mystery? And so we pay attention to that stuff. That's why we go out and, hey, we'll spend a little time in the jungle when it's, when it's dark out if they'll give us a sign of some sort to advance. Take your leads where they come from. I did say that it is science and evidence-based, but every once in a while we'll take a little spooky stuff if it will help drive us towards success. I love that.

So if you experience something like this out and do you lean into it and you think, okay, maybe we're at a spot right now? It definitely influences us. It definitely influences us. So our team member that thought she saw somebody. Now we're like, we've got to spend more time in that part of the jungle. Is there something over there that we're missing? So, yes, it does influence us in some way.

And like I said, we've had too many things that have occurred that we can't explain that have resulted in success. And it's just like, okay, you know, we just have to listen. So another, this isn't a jungle story, but so Pat and another one of our team members, Flip Comer, were on their way to a World War II reunion in Michigan. And they're driving and Packett's a phone call. Maybe it was an email. I think something like that.

but calls this person and say, hey, you know, I have some information related to some losses and this and the other. And, you know, I'd like, I'd really like to talk to you about it. And it's like, oh, where do you live? I live in Michigan. And it was like, well, where in Michigan do you live? We're actually in Michigan right now. And I can't remember what the name of the town was. So let's say it's Cadillac, Michigan, which I think it was much smaller than that. It was more of a small. Well, the guy says the name, they look up and they're literally driving into the town where this person is And so they're like, we're literally one minute from your house. We'll stop in and say hello. And so just coincidences and crazy things like that that occur. And that person had really, really good information that helped us advance a mission. And so yeah, there's some unexplained things that have occurred. And yeah, so we listen to it, pay attention to it because you never know where it might lead.

I mean, it's a nice balance. Take all the science and all that that you can. But it's, it would do you well to, yeah, pay attention. to the small things because they happen for a reason. That's our stance at least. Yeah, we say all the time there's no such thing as coincidences. Yeah. No, they're angel taps. And actually I stole that from a family member of a crew of a B-24 called Heaven Can Wait. And the reason I bring that up is we were preparing to do a mission in Papua New Guinea.

And then out of nowhere, we're contacted by family members. And they said, hey, we don't know if you ever work in this area. but the crew from this bomber for 70 years, the families have been kind of working together. And we have information related to this loss, and we'd like to share it with you. And they shared it with us, and it was where we were going. And we took that information, went to the field, found the heaven-coate bomber, and the Navy just executed a recovery on that site. And now those families are soon going to have answers to, you know,

or hopefully we'll have their loved ones home. But there was a reunion of some sort after we had the discovery in Minnesota. And one of the family members kind of coined that. We were talking about a variety of coincidences that we can explain. And she said, yeah, those are angel taps. And it's like, all right, we're stealing. I might steal that now from you. Yeah, because I love it.

I think it should be used. I think it should be used more. Yeah, I love it. Wow. Well, so you're going to be going to Palau again this year, you said. And do you have any other missions lined up? Yes. Well, we have a team in Sweden right now.

We're working off the coast of Sweden. We'll be in Chuk for multiple missions later on this year, both on land and water. We'll be in Palau for both water and land missions later on this year. We'll be in Germany. And we're working on potentially on going back to Africa. Okay. But yeah, so all sorts of missions up in the air and many, many more to go. Now, with all of these locations that you're going to, are they all World War II related or do you do other?

Great question. No. We do a lot of World War II, but we have done Vietnam, and actually we should be back in Vietnam this year as well. We haven't done so much work for Korea, and that's because of geopolitical reasons. But we've been to the Middle East, so we've done mission in Kuwait all the way up to Desert Storm missions. And then we've also done training losses. So this is an interesting thing where training losses in our mountains off of our coasts and our great lakes are not always considered missing an action because it wasn't connected to a conflict. And so because they don't have that designation, the defense agency can't always put resources to search for those sites, but they're just as missing to their families as anybody else that was lost in combat. So we'll put forth, yeah, so we'll put effort into those cases. They're more difficult to research because the records aren't kept the same, but it is part of our mission. So we've done work in the United States. Actually, I'll be up in Washington State. I forgot that one next month. to do some ground truth being on the site on the western slope of the cascades and hopefully

you find this site. But yeah, that's a training loss. It's not a war loss. But again, that person's just as missing to their family as anybody else. And so the breakdown, and the reason most of our work is related to World War II is of that 81,000 plus that are designated MIA, 72,000 are from World War II, about 7,000 from Korea. And now less than 1,600 associated with Vietnam and then a handful of others related to other smaller conflicts and current conflicts. But we've developed this technology and capability that there's fewer people that are in our most recent conflicts. But that doesn't mean it won't change in the future with you.

You look at what's going on with conflicts around the world. There's thousands of people going missing. But even the fires that took place in Hawaii earlier last year, at one point, there was a thousand people that were missing. And it was actually DPAA, the defense agency that I mentioned, that went over to help with locating and identifying some of those that were missing using the same protocols that we used to help with that. And those that might still be missing there, I'm not sure if everybody's been accounted for, but those families are experiencing that ambiguous loss now that I mentioned. And so it's not just, you know, war that results in this. And so, you know, we're happy to help impact other losses as well if there's.

is a way that our work can influence that. And we've had other countries reach out to us or other agencies reach out to us to see how we can help. And we're all, actually, I have a meeting later on this week about a loss from 1865. Wow. So yeah, I have no idea where that conversation is going to go, but it could turn into something really cool. Wow, that's really interesting. And I have to ask as far as, so while you're on these missions, obviously you have a goal finding an American generally. But when you come across, have you come across other remains of other individuals who may have been enemy forces at the time? And if so, what is the process with those individuals? Yeah.

So we find a lot of things that we're not looking for to include, as you mentioned, foreign enemy sites. But we also find ancient sites. We find shipwrecks. We find all sorts of things. And we document all of those for the former enemies, if you will. We'll report those to the nation that's associated with, typically through the State Department. So usually through the embassies, we'll put a report together and provide that information. And we're happy to provide that information.

But then any side of significance, of course, we support. Like another spooky site, we were really, really deep in the jungle one time and came across this ancient altar on the side of this cliff. And it was like, I have no idea who this is associated with. I'm not going to touch or disturb anything. We're just going to document it and then get on, you know, who knows what? what that'll bring about. But yeah, we find all sorts of really interesting things. And of course, anything of significance is turned over. And for the host nations, they get all the information. We wouldn't be able to do this work without their permissions. And so we make sure that they have

everything. And many times, it helps with their history documenting these sites. A really cool one happened when we were in Denmark on a support and a recovery mission. It was on the water. But there used to be a land bridge between Sweden and Denmark. And, you know, as the water started to come in, humans would move up and up and up until the land bridge disappeared. Well, and I'm probably screwing up the numbers, but I think that the deepest they had gone or their oldest timeline went down to like 10 or 20 feet or something like that. Well, we were working on a site and pulled up an artifact that was at about 60 or 70 feet, and it was an ancient Flint axe. Wow.

And the archaeologist was like, holy smokes. Yeah. We got to hold on that. So basically we've extended Denmark history by something like 10,000 years or, you know, so we have found some and supported the work of locating and documenting some ancient terrace or earthworks in Palau and all sorts of different things. But yes, we do find, you know, sites or MIA sites associated with former. enemies and as well as allies from previous conflicts, and we do the same thing. We turn it over to

those nations via the State Department. And this mission is uniquely American. We're the only country that actively searches for their missing. And it's something that we have done since the Spanish-American War, or that's kind of the roots of it, where the government will pay to bring law soldiers home or law service members home. And not every country, does that and they all react differently in their own way and some put forth resources and some don't. But yeah, it's a very unique mission, but it's a very human mission as we've already touched on. And so we have obviously Americans on our team, but we also have people all over the world that support our mission. We have members in Italy, members in Germany, members in

Japan, Malta, England, everywhere. And they just think it's the right thing to do. And they they help advance this work. And it's very special to work with people. like that and see how they have an impact on. Again, somebody that they don't know, they just think it's the right thing to do and they want to put forth their effort, energy, and resources to accomplish this mission. In everything about this project is incredible from the lives that it touches to the extent it reaches to across the globe and how far it reaches in ways that probably was never anticipated when it first began. And thinking of all of this that you're talking about in all these places you go, the different landscapes, you're underwater, you're in the

mountains, all of these places, I have to ask, are some of these missions dangerous? There's a level of risk associated with every single one of these missions. I mean, anything underwater is risky when you go into these austere environments, there's all sorts of concerns that we have to take into hand. And every single mission safety is a number one priority. It makes no sense to hurt somebody on these missions. And so we do everything we can to minimize. any of those risks based on where we're at. And then at some point, you know, it could become too risky and we won't execute the mission at that time or maybe we need to get some additional resources or capabilities or who knows what. But we always have a safety plan in place. We always have a medical

expert on every mission. And that could be a practicing physician or an EMT. If it's an underwater mission, we want somebody that has, you know, underwater medical capability understands the injuries that could be associated with working in the underwater environment. So yes, there is, there is risk. And then, you know, there's also a risk of, you know, not only injury, but sickness, depending on where you're at. So we, of course, go through all the appropriate vaccinations and things when we're working in certain countries. And then there's other threats that we have to be mindful of based on where we're working in the world. Do we need security? You know, in Africa, we have to take into account things like piracy if we're working in the water and things like that. So each mission, each location

presents their own challenges. But the first thing that we really started addressing is the safety. Like, how can we execute this mission safely to ensure that we bring home everybody that we brought with us? And they're in the same state that they were maybe a little bit more tired than when they started, but hopefully not injured and they're still healthy. And so, yes, there is a risk associated with it. You know, we can't access, as I mentioned earlier, places like North Korea and other spots

in the world. You know, there is an interesting. There's a, and I was laughing because you actually talked about this on a, a podcast earlier. There's some sites in and around India and Bangladesh that are in protected tiger areas. So that's really, really low on our list. As much as we would like to go out there. I don't know how to mitigate that right now. And so that's pretty low on the list. But yeah, so yeah, you have to take that stuff into account. And I'll be keeping an eye out for Bigfoot when I'm in Washington. That's right. Okay. There you go. I don't know how to minimize

that? Actually, do I even want to minimize? You don't. You don't. You don't. They're elusive. You'll just see them running by. I bet you'd bring me back if I found him. Yeah. It would be a great unintended discovery. Let's just say that. Yeah. It would be a first. It would be a first. But so like you said, you're in Washington, but are you also doing the showing of the documentary while you're there? Or is that a separate thing? Yes. Actually, yeah, we're going to be Memorial Day weekend, May 25th. We're going to be at the Museum of Flight, sharing the documentary. Some of us will be there to answer questions. A couple days before that, we also have an event in Bainbridge Island. I don't have the details right now.

But yes, we will be up there for Memorial Day weekend and a little bit of the week before to share the film. But yeah, the big one is going to be a museum of flight May 25th. And yeah, I'll be there. Pat's going to be there. And some other members will be there if anybody wants to come and ask any questions. Pacific Northwest people, show up. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, that would be really cool. And like we said before, the documentary is available on streaming platforms so people can watch it not just at the flight museum, but from the comfort of their own home, which we really encourage everyone to do because obviously it emphasizes the impact of, you know, what the work does and has for the families of MIA and POW service members. And as far as you said earlier, people from all walks of life become involved. in Project Recovery and bring different skill sets to the table. Is there a way that people can get involved if they are inspired after this conversation? Yes. And before I move on, Bainbridge Island is at May 22nd. I just got it.

It's at Bainbridge Cinema. So we had actually, it's a high schooler that's organizing that event on the 22nd. So it's neat to have ambassadors like that that can't necessarily go into the field, but can support in different ways. But yes, to find out more about being a part of the mission, supporting the mission, all sorts of different things, everything can be done at our website, project recover.org. Sometimes people like to say project recovery. That's not it. It's project recover.org. And there's a few things that people will reach out to us about, of course, we're nonprofit. So we rely on the charity of the public to advance our mission. But we also, we want to hear from families. So if you have an MIA in your family, you are who we do this work for. So we want to hear from you. And if we have it, any information related to the loss of your loved one, we'll share that with you. But if you have any information, we also want that. And you never know what little piece of information could solve a case. And so we want to hear from families. And of course, if you're somebody that wants to be a volunteer

member of the organization and you feel you have a skill set that could advance this mission, you can express that through our mission, vision, and values page on project recover.org. It's the link at the bottom. And we do that intentionally because we do live by our mission, vision, and values. And so they have to align with that. But that'll start the process. And we have a long interview process to bring on new members. And we're always looking for people that can advance our mission. And some of the key skill sets include some of the things I mentioned, like medical, archaeology, forensic anthropology, investigative backgrounds, aviation backgrounds. But then we want to hear from people that, you know, hey, this is my background. And here's how I think it could advance your

mission. And we're always interested in hearing about that stuff, especially new technologies that people might be working on. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for the conversation and just giving us all the insider info. It truly is. The documentary is great, but learning more about project recover was was really amazing, especially after, you know, we have heard so many stories about World War II. And, you know, like Cassie covered the story earlier this week. And it's just, it brings it all home. And it makes it feel like it's not just a story in a textbook that it's, you know, this is people's lived experience and part of their lives. And, obviously it's such important work and you guys are doing it based on your values and not for

anything else. Just because like you said, so many times throughout this interview that it's the right thing to do. So thank you for all the effort and work that you've put into the project and bring it around the world. Well, thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan of National Park After Dark and I share your podcast with my friends because we're all outdoor enthusiasts and I enjoy listening to you and the stories that you share and it's just very special to be a part of it. Thank you. That means so much to us. It really does. And thank you for sharing our podcast with your friends, too, because we got a hype man out there. It's nice to know we got a hype man out there. Amazing. Well, thank you again. And one last time, the documentary is called To What Remains. Go see it, May 25th at the Flight Museum, Pacific Northwest people, and go talk to Derek in person. And we have other locations around the country. So if you want to see it, reach out.

We'll give you those dates. Amazing. Thank you so much, Derek. Yes, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at NPAD Podcast.com.

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