National Park After Dark - Grizzly Confidential ft. Kevin Grange

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Today’s episode is all about bears as Kevin Grange returns for his second appearance on the show to discuss his newest book Grizzly Confidential: An Astounding Journey Into the Secret Life of North America’s Most Fearsome Predator. We discuss why people love and fear bears, how we can co-exist in a changing world and most importantly - why bears belong.Purchase Grizzly Confidential HERE and learn more about Kevin Grange HEREFor a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off.Smalls: For 50% off your first order, head to Smalls.com/NPAD and use code NPAD.IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping.Zocdoc: Use our link to download the Zocdoc app for free. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Monday AI agents took over my work. And I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. They live inside Monday.com. So they see the full picture, my work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the data. It's safe, which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff,

knowing everything runs smoothly in the background. It's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more.

Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Hi everyone, welcome back to National Park After Dark. Today we have a really fun episode because we are doing an interview today. And not only an interview, an interview for like the real day one people, the real OGs, our very first interviewee we ever had on the show. We're talking to Kevin Grange today, which if you remember, if you were here like back when we very, very first started doing interviews, he was the very first person we interviewed. So it's really, really exciting.

But for those of you who might not be familiar with him yet, and you are looking for a new book recommendation, we have the perfect interview for you today, which is really exciting. And we'll give you a little overview of who Kevin is before we get started. So you might remember him from our first interviews on the show when we spoke to him about his book, Wild Rescues, a paramedics extreme adventures in Yosemite, Yellowstone, and Grand Teton. and today we are thrilled to have him back to discuss his newest work, Grizzly Confidential and Astounding Journey into the Secret Life of North America's most fearsome predator. Kevin is an award-winning author with an emphasis on the medical field, adventure, and travel, but aside from writing, he's a firefighter and paramedic with years of experience in emergency

and wilderness medicine. His home base is in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, where he spends his free time hiking, biking, and exploring the wilderness. He has trekked through the Himalayas, traveled throughout the country in the name of research, has given presentations around the globe, saved countless lives in our national parks. And now he's here today to talk about one of his other passions, which is bears and why they belong. Kevin, welcome back to National Park After Dark. Hello, Kevin. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. Thank you so much for rejoining us.

Thanks for having me. I'm thrilled to be back and look forward to a great conversation. Yeah. So you wrote another book. I did, yeah. It's, I guess it's kind of like finishing a marathon. When you're finished, you're like, I'll never do it again. And then a few years pass and you get excited about another topic and another adventure presents itself. And then next thing you know, you're writing another book.

So I do have to ask when you were, when we spoke a couple years ago, you must have had this idea at least swirling around in your head or were you already kind of formally working on it? because we spoke, I think, like three years ago, two or three years ago. So how long have you been working on on this one? Well, I've always been fascinated with bears, you know, grizzly bears in particular. And so I sort of like pitched this idea before I wrote my last book, Wild Rescues. But I wasn't really getting a lot of, you know, correspondence from like the biologists. And I think it's because they were assuming I wanted to write just another story of like the ferocious brown bear or the man killer.

So then I wrote wild rescues about working as a paramedic and Yellowstone, Yosemitee, and Grand Teton. And then this time around, I think they were more receptive because instead of like saying, hey, I want to write this book, I sort of started the conversation with, what do you wish people knew about brown bears? So I was kind of letting them lead the narrative. And then I think the main thing is now, you know, grizzly bear recovery in the lower 48 is like a modern conservation success story. So the bears are beginning to push out from the national

parks. And the forefront of like grizzly bear conservation is in these wildland, urban communities kind of on the fringe of national parks. And so I think the bear community knows that we need to get the stories out. And, you know, sometimes people are distrustful of scientists and government agencies. So they wanted to kind of get the story out in a different way. And that's kind of where like artists and writers can in. Well, what's so interesting about your book that you did is there's so much research in it, but it's so much firsthand research. I mean, you went to a lot of bare hotspots to be able to write this book and you talk to a lot of influential people in the bear world. I mean, in your book, you sleep on the ground in the most concentrated area in the world of

grizzly bears and you're going to different sanctuaries and to different talks and all of these things to actually get firsthand real world experience with bears. What made you want to put yourself in all of these situations? I mean, from an outside standpoint, a lot of people have an inherent fear of bears and to be like, okay, I'll go sleep on the ground, I'll go be face to face with a grizzly bear. What made you want to do that? Well, I've always loved bears. and in many ways I kind of look at this book as like a love letter to Bear 399. She's the famous bear who lives in the Teton's and raises her litters by the roadside. And so as she took her four cubs on a walkabout through Jackson Hole, which is where I live in 2021, you know, through my neighborhood,

she was at Josie's Ridge where I trail run, Munger Mountain, where a mountain bike. I kind of realized that along with being fascinated by bears, I was also very fearful of them. And so I kind of realized, like, you know, this is the new normal. Like, bears are pushing out into these other communities into my community. And I guess it's like a firefighter and paramedic and former park ranger. I've just been trained to like go into those places that scare me and this idea that like the best way out is through. So I decided, you know, I love brown bears that I'm going to venture into the wild with biologists and naturalists and guides and just meet the grizzly face to face and see if I can learn everything. I can about them and then see if I can understand them. And then most importantly, see if I can

answer that question of how can we coexist. So that's kind of what motivated the journey. And before we continue on, can you just distinguish for listeners who may not be well-versed in the bear world, the difference between when we're speaking of brown bears and grizzly bears. And I know a lot of people are pretty familiar with the distinction between black bears and and grizzly bears, but not so much the nuances when we're speaking of brown versus grizzly, and there's a lot of different terms thrown around. So can you just give us a lay of the land? Sure. Yeah, it can be confusing. You know, a lot of times you hear all grizzlies are brown bears, but not all brown bears are grizzlies. And so historically, the term grizzly bear referred to bears

in inland North America or bears in the interior, whereas brown bear referred to bears on the coast, like the coastal brown bears of Alaska in the book. And nowadays, it's kind of common to use the terms interchangeably because the genetic difference between the two is basically nothing. You know, and they're one species versus arctose. So that's kind of the history. Like historically, grizzly bears were in the interior and the brown bears were more on the coast.

Okay, perfect. Thank you for that. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch.

Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. You kind of outlined my next question, which was, why now for this book. You've kind of laid out a bit of because bears are now this success story when it comes to conservation are kind of pushing through the boundaries of national parks and we're starting to see them in more and more spaces and obviously that raises concern, fear, questions,

all of that with the general public who may not be used to living alongside and among big predators like this. So as part of your writing process, like Cassie kind of touched on, you went to so many different seminars and trainings and conferences and everything from bare human conflict workshops and safety trainings and different sanctuaries and things like that. So are there any of those that remain among the most impactful throughout this journey? I know every single one kind of has its moments and that's why they're in the book. But is there any that really, really stuck with you? I think one of the main things I learned is, you know, we think,

of bears as carnivores, but in reality, they're more like opportunistic omnivores. And so they're actually mainly vegetarians. And they do occasionally eat meat and they eat fish as well. But, you know, mainly they're just eaten on these vegetarian food sources. So they're not the like carnivore that we see in kind of myth and movies. So of the spots I visited, I think the human bear conflict conference I went to in Lake Tah was really interesting just to kind of learn like the root causes of human. human bear conflict. And probably 95% of that is just like not securing food and garbage and compost, you know, bears having access to beehives and chicken coops. So learning the causes of conflicts, but also the many solutions that are out there that, you know, allow coexistence to be

possibility. Securing food and garbage, you know, using like electrified fences and ranch ranching communities or like carillion bear dogs. And I think one of the main things from that conference is just if we want grizzlies on the landscape, it needs to be like a community effort. And so I feel like if I want bears on the landscape, which I do, I also should be willing to help that rancher with a carcass reimbursement program if he was to lose, you know, a cow or something like that or maybe help reimburse the cost for him to put up an electrified fence, you know. So it has to be community-wide thing. And another thing, it's like, I can secure my trash, but if my neighbor across the street doesn't, you know, the plan falls through. So that was really interesting. And then

as a paramedic, you know, I treat patients who have diabetes and heart disease and stroke. And when I went to Washington State University's Bear Center, they're doing a lot of like amazing research on hibernation physiology. So like bears put on all this weight each fall, but they don't get diabetes. They and kind of turn that insulin sensitivity on and off like a switch. They also don't get coronary artery disease. During hibernation, they can slow their heart rate to 8 to 10 beats per minute, yet the blood doesn't clot. So as a paramedic, the idea that brown bears might help treat these human afflictions

is just like really fascinating. So the visit there was awesome. And then visiting Brooks Falls at Catmine National Park, it's kind of the home of Fat Bear Week. and that was just amazing kind of seeing, yeah, seeing these bears I've fallen in love with, like Otis and Grazer and Holly. And there I kind of just saw the idea of bears as like ecosystem engineers because, you know, you'd see the scat filled with seeds.

So they're kind of dispersing seeds through the scad. And then you see how like bears scatter all the salmon carcasses, which brings like nitrogen and phosphorus to the forest and kind of tilling the earth with their claws. So seeing kind of bears affect the ecosystem. And then also seeing an ecosystem like catmai that's just like firing in all cylinders was really amazing. And then another one, just visiting Doug and Lynn Seuss, who are conservationists, you know,

and they train bears for Hollywood films. So kind of seeing those charismatic personalities of bears that, you know, occur when they're not food stressed was really important. And then McNeil River Sanctuary was kind of the place where all the puzzle pieces of this human bear co-executive. puzzle came together for me. You mentioned this very briefly in what you just said, but you mentioned personalities with

bears. And I really loved that you highlighted that in your book as well, because I think as an outside person who doesn't see bears very often, most of the time when a lot of people do see bears, it's in a headline, unfortunately. And we don't necessarily hear that they have real personalities. And I'm just curious, what are some of the personality traits that you saw in different bears throughout your research? Yeah, that's a great question. And in the book, I tried to capture obviously the personalities of the biologists I spoke with, but also like the personalities of the bears.

And that was the really fun and amazing thing. I saw that when the bears aren't food stressed, you know, like I caught a few salmon runs right at the pulse. so the bears had just eaten their full. And then they just, like this sense of play starts to come out. You know, you can see bears just like doing the backstroke, flopping around with this fish, almost like playing catch with themselves and, you know, just kind of how they interact with each other. You know, because you think of like bears as kind of being territorial and not sharing space

with one another. But when there is a surplus of food, they don't mind being in close proximity. So you see sort of behaviors that you wouldn't think bears were possible of, whether it's an old boar kind of hanging around with a sub-adult, you know, where typically you might think, don't the, you know, old male bears kill the young ones. Well, sometimes they do, but sometimes they pal around together or like, you know, a sow adopting a cub and that type of thing or family groups just spending time together. So just kind of seeing some of that. But I guess regarding the personalities, I think some of that goofy, just playful behavior that we saw. And then I love the subadults. Those are bears that have kind of been emancipated from mom, but they're not yet adults.

And they're kind of like the underdogs of the bear world. And they're just like really goofy, sometimes with huge ears. And, you know, just I love them just because I love underdogs. And just seeing them trying to learn how to fish was, you know, heartwarming and fun. They're still growing into themselves at that point, just trying to figure things out, the lay of the land. Yeah, and they're also very curious. So part of this journey was me learning to understand bear behavior. And, you know, when I first saw that sub-adult approaching us, you know, me and my wife, I was terrified. But then the guide we were with just said, you know,

he's not displaying any of the aggression signs of a bear, you know, such as like salivating or jaw-popping or hooping. He's just curious. And so I was able to relax to just enjoy that moment. And, you know, he walked close and then, you know, he got really close. And then, you know, we just did a like clap of the hand and scoot it off, you know. So it wasn't like, you know, even just a little stimulus can send him on their way. Yeah, not like having to deploy bear spray to try and get this bear away. he's already not agitated, just like letting him know that you're there for him to actually move, which is really interesting because I feel like a lot of times people, as soon as they see a bear, they think that bear spray is the first thing to reach for.

And of course, that's something that is good to have with you. But when you say just a clap of a quick clap of the hand and the bear takes off is so interesting. And it really highlights, I think, when, and you. You talk about this in the book too, but just in this conversation here too, where situationally, bear behavior is different. Here, where you're talking about the bears had plenty of food, they had no real habituation to people where they're used to them being like around all the time, finding food from them. What is the contrast with that and what is the problem that we see in places like Yellowstone

where people might not see what you're explaining right now in this experience you've had? people aren't seeing that in Yellowstone as much and why why is that? Well, I think, you know, what I tell folks is like the best way to stay safe in bear country or the view bears, it really depends on where you are. And so like a coastal brown bear who's well fed with, you know, multiple runs of salmon, he's sort of like the, you know, portly guy sitting on his couch with a remote control and a TV. He's just so much more relaxed and they have a smaller space bubble. So that's different than the Yellowstone bears, which to me are always kind of displaced by humans, you know, like Yellowstone gets four to five million tourists a year. And they're also kind of like

always food stress. So they're just a little more on edge. And so I think Bear View and Yellowstone, it's, you know, you'll see the bears at a distance and it's good to keep that distance. And then some places like Lake Clark or Cap Mai or McNeil River, you know, you're able to view bears a little bit more, a little closer and just kind of in like a different way. So you kind of have a different relationship with them. And places like Yellowstone where we have four to six million people who are visiting every year. What is something that people can do who are visiting to respect the space of the bears while they're there? Yeah, that's a great question. I think the main thing is to give them space. You know, basically bears need a lot of space and they don't like surprises. And so keep at least 100 yards away from

them. And then, you know, one thing people don't realize is they, people who hike have probably been in the vicinity of bears dozens to hundreds of times, but the bear just runs off and you never actually know it, you know. So there's all those times that don't, you know, don't really get reported in the news, but just in a place like Yellowstone, just giving them space, you know, and that can be also on the road, you know, if they're near the road. And then when you hike, just hike as a group, carry bear spray, make noise, just following some of those best practices. Crispy chicken sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud.

And I'm like, yeah, I know, I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4. Quiet, no.

Crispy, saucy, and $4? Very. only at 7-11. Valley through 62326 participating stores only well supplies last the app for full terms. You have brought up McNeil River a couple times in our conversation. And obviously the whole book kind of culminates to this chapter towards the end of the book. And it's so amazing to hear your perspective on it and your experience there because I think it's safe to say a lot of our listeners, as soon as you say Lake Clark or Kat Mai, we know what you're speaking of. like we've heard of it. Some of us have probably been there or have plans to go there. But McNeil River

Game Sanctuary is a bit different. I would say it's probably way lesser known. And it obviously operates a little bit differently as well, which you go into in great detail in the book. But you say that their way of doing things there is about managing the people and not the bears. And the results that they've had are astounding, really when you think of it, especially compared to the different human bear conflicts and situations that you see arise in different national parks and wild spaces in other places in the country. So the success story of McNeil River is quite profound. So can you talk a little bit about how they do things and what an experience there is compared to an experience somewhere else that has bears? Sure. Yeah, McNeil River State Game Sanctuary is

on the Alaska Peninsula a little bit north of Catmine National Park. And it kind of affords bears the highest protection. So obviously they're not hunted there, but they're also not even used as, you know, for research. Like none of the bears are collared or sedated. And so you get there by applying for the lottery. And what occurs is every four days, 10 people get to go into the sanctuary and camp.

And it's the largest concentration of brown bear. on the planet. And so at one time, you know, they saw 74 bears at McNeil Falls feeding, you know, on salmon. So it's just a lot of bears. And the unique thing there, apart from having only 10 people, is you go out bear viewing at the same time every day and you go to the exact same spots. So over a number of years, this was pioneered by a gentleman named Larry O'Miller. the bears have come to expect that predictability from the viewers. And so they have no reason to fear people, but they also have no reason to desire people because we've never given them a food reward. You know, we're securing our trash. And so to the bears there, you're just like an anonymous

part of the landscape. And, you know, they'll just walk right up to you and walk right past you. And when you're bear viewing, you kind of grouped together. And Larry O'Miller has a quote, he's like, you know, if the bears aren't stressed, I'm not stressed. And if they want to walk up to you and, you know, say hello, then that's kind of what occurs. And so you're able to see these bears at close range and, you know, and I think the first day I was there, this sal with two cubs, she just, you know, turned her back to us, laid down and took a nap and let her two cubs pretty much walk right up to us. So that's the kind of like unique experience that you can have there. So that's amazing. And I guess the question of McNeil is, how do you take the McNeil experience

and bring it back home? Because it is unique. You know, there's only 10 people there every four days. And like you said earlier, I think I asked Beth Rosenberg, who's the sanctuary manager there last year, and like, how do you manage the bears? And she just said, we don't manage the bears. They're doing 100% of what they normally do. We just manage the people. So just having that discipline. regarding, you know, food storage and that predictability, you're able to have these amazing experiences with bears. So to me, it kind of showed what's possible. And it also just, again, squash that myth of bears as just these ferocious animals that want to kill humans. Because, I mean, they had, you know, we're in close proximity and they had absolutely no interest in us at all.

Yeah, a completely different approach from what we're used to. And it's working. too, if I remember correctly in your book, you wrote that there has never been a fatal mauling that has happened to there. Is that right? Yeah, there's never actually been a human injured. And I think McNeil was created in 1967. So there's never been a human injured. And there's also equally important, there's never been a bear, a problem there that's had to be removed. And, you know, that's kind of just like this coexistence miracle. But again, it's like, as I was there, there was a student from Harvard who was doing like a PhD study on McNeil. And, you know, his question was, how do we bring it back? And I think as we talk about,

it's just bringing that discipline back home. And I guess one thing I found in talking to Beth Rosenberg, the manager there, it's, it just feels amazing not to be number one. You know, as humans, we often think of we're apex, we're number one. So it's really cool there to not be number one and to sort of like live. in such a way that supports something higher, in this case, bears. And what I love about bears is they're kind of at the top of the food chain. If you can coexist with bears, you can also coexist with all the animals and the plants that fall beneath them. I think that's beautiful. And I think it's so inspiring. That chapter was particularly inspiring in regards to like this is possible. And of course, it's a,

I don't want to say a container, but it's definitely a smaller scale. Like you said, it's a very difficult lottery to get drawn for. There's not a lot of people. They give bears breaks. Obviously, everyone is, when you get there, you go through, like, the ringer as far as what to do, what not to do. This is what, you know, it's all about the people behavior, you know, like what you are able to do and what is expected of you. And I think that a lot of our experiences is not very a, it's not a proactive approach. It's more of a reactive approach. Like, you know, And we keep picking on Yellowstone, but it just happens to be the one place a lot of people encounter bears in the wild. And obviously there are a lot of bears there.

But it's more of like you hear the term like problem bear. And that could be true. But why is that? And it's mostly always associated with problem human behavior first. And it's so disheartening for people who love and care and respect bears. to be, because like you said, just that small example, if I secure my trash, that's great. But if my neighbor doesn't, then the whole thing kind of falls through. And we see that in this grander scale when we're out in national parks and recreating in wild spaces with hundreds, thousands, or millions of other

people who may not be on the same page. So it's kind of like, yeah, that question of how do we get there? And that's through education. And it's kind of just like a process that we're going to have to slowly move through. And I think reflecting back to, we've talked about this before many times, Cassie and I of, you know, where we were as a society interacting with bears in the national park system even 50 years ago compared to now. So where we can be 50 years from this point with the information that we know now and different behavioral changes for us as humans, what is possible? And I think McNeil River is just such a cool testament to what we can see on a grander and larger scale in the future if we just put those behaviors to work and actually change them. And part of that

obviously is also not only our behaviors, but our view on bears with just all the different nuances and reading their behavior and seeing them as individuals instead of just this big, scary, formidable predator. And I love that your book, because a lot of books about bears are great. But I think what makes yours a bit different is because you start off the book saying, I love bears, I grew up loving bears, I always thought I was a bear person until I was put into living next to bears and putting myself in a situation where I was potentially able to run into one in my day-to-day life. And then you start questioning, am I really a bear person? And I think so many people can relate to that because me and Cassie say, yeah, we're bear people. We love bears. This is great. And then as soon as we're camping,

in Alaska, we're like, are we bear people? Because I'm terrified right now. And I think so many people can relate to that. Yeah. No, I think I knew I was, well, I thought I was a bear person, but then once bears were kind of inconveniencing me via where I mountain bike, where I trail ran, then I had to kind of, like you say, reinvestigate, am I really a bear person? And I guess just getting back to McNeil and Yellowstone, Yellowstone is, I spent the day with Carrie Gunther, the biologist there, and that is a huge success story that they have these millions of tourists. And, you know, I think the stats are like one in 59 million people who visits has a bear encounter, you know, or one in 29 million who camp in the back country. And so like the team there is just an amazing job with making the right thing easy,

you know, bear boxes at the campsites and the Rangers do patrols at night. So the fact that they have so few incidents is really a miracle, whereas as you mentioned in past, they used to have a lunch counter for bears at Yellowstone where they would feed the bears and, you know, there were stands for people to sit and watch the Rangers feed that, you know. So we've come a long way and like I'm excited like you are about the next 50 years. Yeah, it's exciting to see the changes, especially when we say the lunch counters and there were viewing points and all these things to see that the national parks have totally shifted, their idea of how to interact and coexist with bears, to see how it is now. And also to hear those numbers that you just said are really encouraging,

I think, to people who might be afraid to go into bear country and to go into these parks. I mean, you hear of seeing all these bears in Yellowstone or glacier or somewhere that has a high concentration of them, but to know that one in 29 million chance of having some type of an encounter with a bear is a really good, really good odds that you're safe and you're okay. And to have all these tools implemented that will make you safe, which you definitely highlight in your book as well, is to know all of these things and to have all of this knowledge will make you safer around bears, which also in your book felt like was your journey to learn about bears so you didn't have to fear them anymore. Now that you have done all this research and have

been face to face with bears, what is your, what are your feelings towards them? Are you still as afraid as you were when you started this or do you feel more comfortable? No, I'm like light years different than I was and I feel like I'm a lot more comfortable with them and I'm not, terrified of them, I'll always be cautious around them. But I think just, you know, learning about them and what their needs are and knowing their behavior, understanding them more. I feel a lot more comfortable. So yeah, I would say I'm definitely a bear person. And, you know, I guess one thing I talk about, I'm not sure if I mentioned in my book, but just like some of the gifts that this journey gave me and that the bears gave me is it kind of put me in touch with like the wildness of the

planet, you know, because you go to these amazing spots. And then from that, I'm just, you know, really drawn to want to conserve this, you know, this amazing planet that we live on. And then a cool thing I know you guys are like dog people is the bear's world is ruled by behavior. So prior to this journey, I sort of had just like a vocal relationship with animals and my dog Asher, whereas learning the bear behavior and seeing them in relationship. relationship with one another. Now I have this, I have that heightened awareness of like behavior. So like me and my dog Asher, you know, it's now not just vocal.

It's like posture and behavior. So this whole new realm of like communication and relationship is opened up, which is really amazing and fun, you know. And then I think another thing is I talk about some of the history of myth and bears, you know, how they evolved. And I talk about the berserkers, which were this, you know, old Norse warriors who would wear like a bear shirt and go into battle. So one thing I learned, the bears, like, they live a harsh life and they have a high

cub mortality, but they're very resilient. Like at catmice, you see them with the scars, and they're just able to, like, adapt and overcome. And so whereas the berserkers kind of use that energy to, like, take life, I've kind of used that energy. I feel as like a firefighter and paramedic to, like, help save lives. So in a way, I kind of attribute that to the bears. And I guess the last thing that this journey gave me is just, I thought I was journeying

into the bear world and I was, but I met so many amazing people. So kind of like the journey into bears revealed some of the best parts of humanity, biologists, wildlife guides, sportsmen, and even hunters who wanted to like protect our planet and protect bears. So that was like another great part of it. I think that's a great point that you make, especially at the end there, where you say that you form these relationship with hunters. Because I think when you talk about conservation and you talk about hunting,

you almost put them as enemies that they can't coexist together. You're either for conservation or you're for hunting. You can't be both. And one thing that I loved in your book is that you really highlight the efforts that hunters have actually gone to and through to preserve animals and to actually take part hugely in conservation efforts. And would you mind just talking about that a little bit, how hunting can actually be,

and hunters themselves are part of the conservation efforts? Sure. Well, as a writer and a journalist, you know, there's sort of this idea of just like follow the story. And so I hadn't planned on putting hunting in the book, but then a number of biologists and some conservationists were like, hey, you really need to talk to like a map. master hunting guide in Alaska. And so I try to, each chapter is kind of like a lens into the

brown bear world. And, you know, I personally would not like shoot a grizzly bear. I'm not against all hunting. I just wouldn't kill a brown bear. But I was directed by numerous people like, hey, you got to check out this. So with this idea that I'm just giving perspectives on bears, I went on a kodiak bear hunt with a master guide named Sam Roar. And that was just really interesting because I learned how hunting a highly regulated hunt with low numbers in the right place can really improve a community's tolerance for bears. We find it, you know, we love bears, you and I, but to like many people, bears are just like a net loss on the landscape.

They have no value. However, if there's a highly regulated hunt, many people do find value in having bears on the landscape or if there is a bear causing trouble in town, they're more. more, they have more patience for it. It can also provide like economics stability. And when I went on that bear hunt, they were helping, you know, wildlife officials with a field count of bears. So they were out there in the field helping do a field count, which would help conservation efforts. And then we also ran into a bear that unfortunately had its claws cut off and its head cut off. So it was possibly a poached bear. And obviously we reported it right away. So that whole

experience and just kind of learn in some of the history of conservation in the U.S. It started with the Boone and Crockett Club, which was a club of hunters. So I learned how, you know, they can work together in some areas for the positive benefit of bears. Well, and as you said, you're just providing these lenses into the brown bear world, and that lens exists. So to not include it, wouldn't have given a full comprehensive view. And I think that I obviously agree with Cassie that it was nice to have included, even though obviously it's very apparent through your writing that you would not partake in something like that yourself.

And I would guess that most readers of this book would fall into that camp as well. But to know that it is part of the brown bear world. And it's important to know that through hunting, there are benefits whether or not it seems a little counterintuitive. but there are benefits. And one of those benefits you just kind of touched on, which I wanted to touch on as well, was public tolerance for bears. And that obviously is really important as we move forward in the conservation story of bears as a whole. Because, you know, we, a lot of people go to different national parks to view bears. And they kind of are like, okay, well, now I'm gone and I will leave that behind and go back to my life. But in certain parts of the kind of, the kind of,

country, there are various reintroduction efforts that are happening that you kind of touch on at the very end of your book, because obviously they're unfolding and evolving as we speak, but obviously the North Cascades in Washington has just greenlit the reintroduction, and there's talks of a California reintroduction in the near future. So public tolerance is key because that would never go anywhere if it didn't have public support. And big predators are very divisive. I mean, they always have Ben, as you touched on in the history of bears in this book. And obviously as someone who is very involved in the wolf world, same kind of story translates to them as well. So you need to have some sort of middle ground or we're never going to get anywhere with big predator reintroductions.

So can you touch on any of the reintroduction efforts? Like what are your thoughts and feelings? And I mean, you've talked to a lot of people in the conservation world. So just hearing kind of what people in those areas are feeling. Do you have any insight on that? Yeah, I guess what I learned most on that topic was speaking with Dr. Chris Servine, who led the grizzly bears were put on the endangered species list in the lower 48 in 1975. And then, you know, a number of years later, he was called upon to recover brown bears or grizzly bears in the lower 48 for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And so he would go to these town hall meetings. and, you know, they'd get pretty wild.

Sometimes, you know, people have no grizzly bear signs, sometimes fist fights and whatnot. But what he said was basically, you know, to first listen. People who are against bears and have concerns, just listen to them first, you know. And maybe it's a mom who says, I want my kids to be able to go out and play and not get injured. And then Chris would say, well, as wildlife officials,

we want the same thing. Or the rancher would say, I don't want bears killing my cattle. And then, you know, Chris would say, that's, we don't want that either. So you find that common ground. So I think just listening, hearing what their concerns are, and then just like speaking to them, you know. So maybe someone's afraid about hiking in grizzly bear country. You can just say, well, you know, they're actually not primarily carnivores or opportunistic omnivores that mainly feed on, you know, vegetarian sources, you know, with the rancher.

You can talk about the carcass reimbursement program or the carcass. pickup program, you know, just because you see a grizzly up eating a dead cow doesn't mean the grizzly killed the cow, you know, so some of that if a cow dies, you know, getting him off the landscape because if he's just sitting there, you know, he probably will attract some bears. But just hearing what the concerns are and answering them and, you know, again, engaging the community. So everyone's kind of supporting each other, but also bears with food storage and all that type of thing. Yeah, so I think one thing, you know, we mainly hear about grizzly bears in the news when there's an attack, which is really about 1% of the time, you know, most encounters don't end

with an attack. So there's the 99% of bears that we don't hear about. So it's just, that's what this book's trying to share that secret life. But also, that's what I would try to share with these people and these new communities, you know, just so they learn about the other aspects of bears. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And when we talk about concerns and then these reintroduction efforts, I think one of the concerns which you touched on a little bit is people hiking in the outdoors and in these spaces and in these national parks. I recently had my own encounter with a black bear in the Grand Teton's. And it happened. It was very interesting because we were walking down this trail and we kept hearing people say, hey, there's black bear on the trail just so you know. And then

this group, it was a group of three people, came running up the trail, sweating, out of breath, terrified. They have bear spray. All of them have their bear spray out. And they stop and they're like, there's a bear, be careful. And they've been running for a while. And they told us that they had this other plan. They were going to take a totally alternate route to, it was an extra two miles that they were going to walk to get out of this bear's way. And for us, we were in a group of a few people. and we ended up just walking right by the bear. And it was right off the trail sitting under a tree and it just looked at us. And besides just looking at us, curious, it didn't move.

It didn't make any. And it had cubs with her as well. And we just walk right by and it was fine. But I would ask you, what would be the better scenario in this situation if you find yourself walking by a black bear on the trail or a grizzly bear on the trail? What would be a better way to react to that? because seeing people running in the opposite direction and clearly in severe stress and fear and they just were not having a good time with this experience, what can people do to prepare a little

bit better? Well, yeah, I think number one, having like a pre-plan. So before you start your hike, just have a plan of what you're going to do. And then obviously carry bear spray. So it's good they had bear spray. You definitely don't want to run because you're like mimicking prey. And we cannot outrun a bear, like a grizzly bear. reach up to 35 miles an hour.

So you never want to run. But I think, you know, if we were hiking, it's knowing bears too. Like bears, they want to, everything they do is like they're measuring the caloric return from the energy expended. So that's why they're primarily vegetarian because it's the food that's most predictable, takes the least amount of effort. They're not primary carnivores, you know, they'll feed on carcasses or maybe some elk calves, but chasing an animal expends a lot of energy and the chance of success is, you know,

pretty low. So bears will use trails just because it's the easiest way through the forest. So a bear on a trail and even a bear walking in your direction doesn't mean it's a predatory bear. He's probably just being smart and taking the easiest path. You know, you see bison doing the same thing with the road in Yellowstone. They're always on the road. So I think the best case there is if you're with a group, you know, pack it in tight, you know, you can get the bear spray out and just, you know, it should always be deployable within three seconds. And then if the bear's on the trail, just, you know, looking at its behavior, a lot of times a bear will stand, which is not, it's not standing because it's about to attack. It's just standing because it wants to like get a better look at you or maybe like get a better scent, you know, better smell. And then just give them space.

So, you know, the bear's on the trail, which I had up in the North Cascades with a black bear, just. just, it was, you know, eating some berries. Me and my friend Dina, who's a park ranger, we just took a really wide berth around it. So that's what I'd recommend. And if it's a grizzly, you know, I'd go really wide at least like 100 yards and then try to reconnect back to the trail.

And then as you're doing this, just look for any signs of stress within the bear. You know, if it's stopping to eat or if it's, you know, starting to get a little anxious, then, you know, just pause. So it's kind of like a given, take. But the main thing is don't run, stay as a group, pack it in tight, and just give them a lot of space. On the topic of bear spray too, because I think it's so easy to go out and buy

bear spray, but actually using it is totally a different animal in itself because it's different than just regular mace where you just press the button. There's a safety on it. And I think a lot of people who buy bear spray don't necessarily know exactly how to use it or how to deploy it in three seconds. And you teach classes that involve teaching people how to deploy bear spray. Could you give a couple tips just for people listening on how to properly use their bear spray if and when that situation arises? Sure. Well, in the book, I took a bear safety class from a Navy SEAL and he's all about just practicing. So there are practice bear spray cans.

You can practice deploying. But the main thing is not having the can in your backpack. It needs to be close, you know, deployable within three seconds. So get a can of inert bear spray. You can just practice, you know, pulling, you know, grabbing it and discharging it. And just try to make it like natural and just so you don't even have to think about it. So I like my bear spray either on if I have like a binocular harness, like a binoculars, like a vinyl harness, like underneath. or maybe on my backpack strap, you know, the chest strap or maybe on my hip, just somewhere close.

And then what I recommend and what we use in like the fire service, especially like wildland fire, you have this idea of like trigger points. So, hey, if the fire comes here, we're doing this. So with a bear, you know, I give it space and then maybe the bear doesn't see me and I just quietly go about my way. maybe the bear sees me and maybe I just, you know, make a little noise, hey bear. But then if the bear's approaching, I have these trigger points. So, you know, I do this. If he's still approaching, I do this when he gets under, you know, 30 feet.

If he's still coming, you know, because it could be like a bluff charge. So just kind of have a series of actions to take and then knowing when to deploy the bear spray, if that makes sense. And it's pretty fluid. it kind of depends. Is the bear walking towards you? Is it like a curious subadale? That's going to be different than is a bear charging you as far as like when to deploy it. Well, and that goes back to reading the room, reading the situation,

reading bear behavior and obviously familiarizing yourself to the best of your ability with bear behavior. And of course, as we've talked about bears are individuals, there's always going to be the chance that they don't follow the typical bear behavior norm. and obviously you should be prepared for that as well, but just in general, knowing the animal that you are sharing space with and what is normal, typical, atypical behaviors is going to be to your benefit and the bear's benefit in the long run.

So with that being said, obviously in your book, you cover so much more than what we've spoken about, everything from like Fat Bear Week, and we didn't even get into the poaching and illegal wildlife trade that you cover and there's just so much to your book. And I think a big part of how the reason it was so easy to read as far as I, I mean, I sat down and read it in, you know, kind of just a day is because it's, it also reads kind of like a travel blog. I mean, obviously you said you visited all these places, but the way that you write about it,

it's like we're going on the journey with you to all these different places, which makes for not only a fun read, but also educational and just, informative and even for people who aren't die hard bear people, I think it's for for everyone. So thank you so much for taking all of the time and effort to write it and to bring it to everybody. And congratulations on another great book. Well, thanks. Yeah, it was fun to write and it's fun to share with people. And if my book helps human bear coexistence, even just a little bit, I would be so happy and proud. And most of all, thanks for having me on the show.

And it's always a thrill and an honor to speak with you. And thanks for all you guys do for our wild places and conservation and everything else. So I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you. You are actually the first person that we've ever interviewed on the podcast. So this feels like a full circle moment where you're back with us because you were the first person who ever came on and first author we ever had on. And now to have you here again where you're writing another book and you've done so much exciting research into it. And it's so much towards things that we love to.

and the conservation, it's so cool to have you back. And we're very grateful that you reached out to us and told us and wanted to come back on. And I know the people listening are also really excited and will be excited to read your book, which brings me to where can people find it and where can people buy it and when will, it will be out very soon after we record this. Sure. It's available for pre-order now. And it'll be available as a hardcover, an e-book or an audiobook.

book and I'm not the narrator because I interviewed so many people like 30 or 40 people that I'm like I can't do the voices for all these people you know I'm not that talented on narration but so yeah it'll be out in those three formats pretty much anywhere books are sold I like to always plug like your local independent bookstore so you know try to support them if you can and there's always the online options very cool actually when I was in the grantee's Teton's last month. I was in the visitor center in Grand Teton's, and I saw your book Wild Rescues when I was in there. Oh, nice. It was really cool. I was like, wait, I know him. I've read that book. Well, I have the same thing. Like, you know, I had some family in town and they just started talking

about National Park after dark. And I'm like, yeah, I'm actually speaking to them next week. And they're like, you know, Cassie and Danielle. You know, so you're like kind of rock stars out there. Oh, no way. That's so cool. No, it's fun to. That's a really cool. Yeah, see all your success. And, you know, I opened up the New York Times a couple, maybe a month ago or a month of two. And I saw the podcast highlighted there. So, yeah, it's congrats again. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, we didn't even know. Actually, we didn't know. We were on our trip. We were in Peru. And one of our travelers was like, oh, congratulations on, you know, the article. Their mom sent it to them. Yeah, we're like, wait, what? And they're like, you're in the New York Times.

Sure. Oh, are we? Yeah, that's awesome. So yeah, it was a cool moment. Yeah. But yeah, so thank you so much. Hopefully we can have you back on for your next project if you decide to go down that way. I know you're like, you know, want to take a breather probably, but we'll see.

And yeah, so everyone should go pick up a copy, Grizzly Confidential. Kevin Range, thank you so much for joining us again. Thanks for having me. Had a great time. Thank you so much for joining. us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at npaddpodcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our Outsiders only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen

ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes, and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more information on our show, our book recommendations, merch updates, and more, visit our website at npaddpodcast.com. And please rate, review, and subscribe from wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by.

In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.