National Park After Dark - I Escaped: A Sit Down With a Wilderness Therapy Program Participant

Episode Date: January 18, 2024

As a follow up to last episode, we sit down for a chat with one of Danielle’s oldest friends - Tyler, who has first hand experience with a wilderness therapy program in Utah. He was blindfolded and taken out into the desert, where he became the first to “escape” the program.For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Embrace Pet Insurance: For more info head to EmbracePetInsurance.com/NPADEarth Breeze: Use our link got get 40% off when you subscribe.BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Listen to Monday.com. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform. So flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally, breathe. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We are back with a, it's not trail tales today, but regardless, we have a very exciting episode. Yeah, we're switching it up a little bit. This is our first guest and interview that we've done. done with someone that we, or at least I have known personally. Is that true? Al was on the show. Oh, yeah, true. Oh, my God. Sorry, Al.

Oh, Al. Sorry. He'd be so sad. Don't tell him. Don't tell him. He's so sad. Okay. Al, I'm sorry if you ever hear that.

But today we have my friend Tyler Ford on the show to talk about his experience with wilderness therapy school. and programs out in Utah. So if you listen to our episode on Monday, if you didn't, you should pause and go back and listen to that one because it's going to bring a lot of context to our conversation. But we discussed the Challenger Foundation and the story of Steve Cardizano that was based off of the documentary Hell Camp that's on Netflix right now.

So we had a big lot. That was one of our longest episodes we've ever done. There's a lot to unpack there. And at the end, we were kind of talking about our feelings of where we stood with wilderness therapy programs, both in the past and currently. And Tyler, like I said, is one of my oldest friends. And he had a personal experience with one in the early 2000s when his mom sent him there. He came on to talk to us all about it. So without further ado, let's welcome Tyler.

Okay, welcome Tyler Ford. So weird to call you by your full name. But Tyler Ford, welcome to National Park After Dark. Happy to be here. Yeah, we're excited. Danielle just told a really interesting story about a lot of the wilderness therapy camps that are going on. And then she later told me that she had a friend who has actually been to one. So it's good to have you here.

We're very intrigued to hear about your experience. Thank you. She actually called what you text. You texted me the documentary. and my mom also. I'm so excited to talk about your mom. She was like, don't tell anybody about that. I was like, okay, I'm going to go on a podcast.

I know. I know. I know. She doesn't know that part. Oh, no. Okay. Well, just before we get into it, just to introduce you a little bit, Tyler is one of my longest and dearest friends.

We met at Keene State College in Manana Call, which I think is no longer. I think they just tore that down. Yeah, they've changed that. whole college around. Yeah. So we lived on the same floor in the dorms, our sophomore year, your freshman year. Yeah. And that's how we started our friendship.

And I have continued staying in touch with him over the years. I don't even talk to my roommates anymore, but I talk to you. So he's a very good friend. And actually one of the first memories I have of you is you describing your experience at a Wilderness Therapy School Program. And it was like his like drinking fact, like two truths and a lie type of thing. He's like, I wasn't a one way that's true. Yeah.

He's like, I survive. And yeah, like he said, as soon as I saw that documentary, I hit play for like 30 seconds, immediately paused it and reached out to him. I'm like, there's no way. Is this what I think it is? And he's like, no, wait. Oh, yeah, it is. So we are really excited to get your views on what happened to you and your

experience. So I guess, is there anything you want to tell the people about yourself before we start? Like, you're like, I'm a good kid. I swear to God. No, no. I'm just knowing you for so long, I never knew that you would be on a podcast in front of people talking. Thank you for saying that because I don't think people understand that. How brave it? No, no, because you used to hate people and now you probably still do, but don't at the same time. You used to hate people. I was, yeah. I wasn't, I wouldn't say that I'm not, I wasn't very nice.

I was just very selective. Yes, which I'm honored to be a part of that. Thank you. Thank you. It's so funny when you talk to friends and you hear them describe you from the outside. It's like, oh, by the way, you were like this and it's like, oh, wait a minute. But she never changed ever. Yes, thank you also for that.

He's like, you're my hype man. Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that with everyone, but on to you. So you went to, what year did you go, when did you go to wilderness therapy? It was after high school 2007, so three years after high school, I believe. No, yeah, 2007. So right before college when I met you, so it was a little bit more fresh when I was telling it to you. Yeah.

But I went there because I was a, you. some would say a troubled youth and got in a lot of trouble, hung out with the wrong people. My parents didn't know what to do. I was pretty much rock bottom at an early age and my mom just being over emotionally Italian decided to send me to this wilderness camp in Utah. What part of Utah were you in? That I do not remember. And the reason why is because a lot of, I remember flying there, but a lot of the time

I just remember that they strip you from knowing anything. So they just like blindly put you in the middle of nowhere, Utah? Yes, yes. And I wanted just for the record, say that it definitely wasn't as extreme as the Challenger Foundation, but you can tell that it's a spin-off. And you see a very similar picture. And you can just tell it's the birthplace of that camp. Okay.

So with the Challenger, they essentially, they kidnapped kids from their houses. and then took them out to camps. Yeah, that's wild. So you didn't experience that with your... No. No. Did you know you were going? Yes.

So my mother told me that I was going to some type of relief camp like this where it was inside. Oh. It was inside. Okay. Pull me a story just to get me to go. Okay. And I don't think to my mom's, you know, I feel bad for my mom feeling bad about it, but she didn't know what was going on.

She just thought it was a, it was one of these like troubled youth camps where they fixed you, right? And instead of me being kidnapped, I flew there. And once I got there, there was like a home base and that's inside. But what they do is they give you the orange clothing, similar to holes, if you've ever seen the movie. Yeah. And a white shirt and that's it.

Right. And what they do is they put me in a black SUV and they blindfolded me. and they took me. You don't know how long the distance is when you're blindfolded somehow. Obviously, you can't see anything, but they took you and dropped you off in a group that, you know,

I'm pretty sure there was a couple groups, but I guess they paired me with a group and they drop you off and they're already there. And the biggest shock to me is when I first got there, it's, it's, they put you, they group you with, I don't think it's like they try to match you with personality or anything, I was there with drug addicts, very troubled teenagers, and there was even a convict that was there.

And they were dirty. They were smelly. And they were very light. Like, they were very lightweight. It's thin. Yeah, very thin. Yeah, very thin. And, you know, you can tell they've been there for a while.

Okay. And so you were flown in from where you living in D.C. area when you were flown into Utah? Yeah, yeah. Northern Virginia, right outside. And had you ever had any outage? door experience prior to this or of this caliber? No. That would have prepared you?

Okay. No. Okay. Just wanted to be clear. When they blindfolded you and put you in a black van, did you know that this was happening? Did they explain to you why? They explained to me that they were going to blindfold me.

What did you feel in that moment when they said that? You know, I was so, I've already had my adventure. So to me, that didn't really seem like a big deal at the time. But looking back, it's like. like they don't want you to know how to get back. Right. Yeah, that's a scary thought. Yeah.

They don't want you to know where you are. They don't want you to know how to leave if you need to. Yeah. At the time, I was like, I didn't experience it yet. And I didn't know what it was about. So I just thought that was part of the process and whatever it was. And when your mom was kind of presenting this to you, did she give you a time frame? Was she like, okay, you're going here for this amount of time?

Did you have an expectation as far as how long you were going to be this? there? I think she said like a couple weeks. Okay. Okay. And do you know if she was intentionally, like, I know this was a long time ago and I kind of just like sprung this on you, but do you know if she knew that what the information she was getting was accurate and she was just kind of lying to you? Yeah, well, it's hard to say because I know she, some of it was lying to get me to go because I was very rebellious and I would have said no if she was like, you're going to the desert to get dirty and do stuff. Like, like that. Yeah. Yeah. But I didn't think she, I think she also lied about the timeframe. I don't think she actually was fully informed on that. Okay. And you said after high school,

so are you 18 or older at this point? Or are you still? Okay. 19 years old. 19. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you're in the desert. You're blindfolded. You're dropped off at a camp with a bunch of other teenagers and young adults who have clearly been there for a long time. And you, were you stripped of your belongings and just kind of given provisions or? Yeah. And that's kind of, that's why it was so easy, like when you watch a documentary to do what they did is because the whole goal is they strip you of your values like phones, technology, stoves, electronics, and they make you build yourself up from the tools and the environment

that you're giving. So that's the whole goal, right? And for some people, that definitely works. I mean, the idea of it, it makes sense. And I'm sure it was for some people. But the staff can also get behind that idea and get away with the behaviors and the choices that they made, right? Yeah. And that is what they did.

Same thing with us. So we were stripped of everything. All we were given was a sleeping bag, a hiking pack full of pots, malnourished food and analogying for barely drinkable water that we would find wherever we were. So just different water sources around the desert? Yeah. And I hate... it was like there was the only water that you found were these little mud puddles where cows were bathing in and we just use a drop of iodine to you know make it drinkable and you know those were like kind of red flags that

you saw like this isn't okay yeah something that's going on here isn't right yeah we're we're barely finding these little bodies of water that cows are bathing in yeah so when you got there the first day and you get out of the van and they drop you in the middle of nowhere essentially. What did they have you do then? Did they explain what was going to happen for the next few weeks days or did they just throw you into hard work outside basically? They introduced me to everybody. This is my tribe. Okay. They introduced it as a tribe, the group. Yeah. And they basically went around introducing everybody and kind of made it seem like just

kind of day-to-day what was going to happen. Obviously, the bigger picture was never told because, like the show, and I'm sure you guys are going to get to it at some point, but there wasn't a time to where you would leave. It was only when they thought you were going to graduate in that sense. So they didn't really give you a lot of, like, more than what's going to happen that day or that next day or when they're leaving to go to another camp or that kind of stuff. Okay. So day-to-day, is it similar to the Challenger Foundation as far as just you're hiking? There is no real rhyme where you're just moving from one campsite to another. There's nothing out, no other like activities or like I just, I don't understand.

No, that's a good question. The good news about all of this was they did teach you how to make a fire with what's around you. Kind of like these survival skills that are very baseline just so that you can cook the food, the powdered milk and oats and all the stuff that you don't want to eat. but just to live. But besides that, yeah, it was basically doing that stuff every day. Like you looked forward to eating because that's all you did. And then you would hike miles to a different campsite. And that was kind of what it was.

And then do it all over. Okay. It's interesting that they didn't teach real survival skills because it seems like in this scenario, that would be a great opportunity to learn them and to have something that is worth doing while you're in the outdoors. if you're learning for wilderness first aid if you're learning how to make the fires from scratch if you're learning how to build shelters things like that it would make it almost more of a rewarding activity so it's it's interesting that you say that they weren't teaching you that stuff while you were there anyway the

the fire part they did just because we had to make food yeah right they had to teach you and obviously they're not going to provide you with a lighter so or you know anything to get a fire going that's not natural. So that was very helpful and it was also useful later on. Yeah, a fun party trick. And in real life. I have a question about the staff. So when I texted Tyler about the documentary, it was the first day it came out. And we watched it together. And then afterwards, we kind of had like a debriefing meeting about it, phone call. And I don't think I asked you, but the staff in your experience, were they kind of following the same, I hate to use the phrase tough love because there was no love involved in the documentary, I don't think. But was it like that rough military style approach?

Or was it more empathetic and like a true camp counselor type of feel? It was a mixture. Like I said, it's not going to be as extreme as the Challenger Foundation, but they definitely smoothed over some of the etiquette and the ethics that were practiced once they had more camps open up or however that worked. But you could tell that they were camp counselors, but you could also tell that there was no rules because you're out in the middle of nowhere and they kind of had the power no matter what. And you could tell also that some of them were like bullied back in the day. Okay.

And it's a good job if you do like being outside and getting back at what. happened in your past it's a really good mix to dish out on somebody else that's like a power play it's it's sad because i feel like a lot of people in power have that backstory when they're now turning it around and dishing it out on other people because they're in a position where you can't for an authoritative yeah they're an authoritative role now and they're the person in power so that can be a dangerous combination. It was. And some of them were very rude. I mean, not in a way, like, you could tell that a lot of it was genuine when they were yelling at you. Like, it came from somewhere in the past that, you know, that maybe it happened to them or whatever the case may be. But they definitely didn't hold back

when you did something wrong. Okay. Do you want to elaborate? Or, like, was there any, did you witness any sort of abuse? It was more about taking. It was more about taking. taking things away, make you feel more enslaved than actually camping and finding yourself and learning the true value of having nothing and, you know, the real reasons why they should be there. But for instance, you didn't shower ever. And this is coming from people that have been, so like people that have been there for a while. There's one guy there that was there for 10 months.

Oh, wow. That's a long time. And that's almost a year. And, you know, he showered maybe once or twice. That's not right. Yeah. And you can tell that like they don't eat as much, obviously, because we're not eating appropriate food in the first place. But along with the food, right, it was so gross that you didn't want to eat it. But like, let's say you didn't swear or you didn't take anybody or you didn't share with anybody or something like that for like two weeks. They give you peanut butter to mix with your oats or something like that. Okay. So that's the reward. Yeah, like a little like a small reward that now doesn't really matter. But the other thing is toilet paper that they would like have. a roll maybe or a couple sheets because when you use the bathroom boy or girl you had to wipe with what was ever around you may that be a brittle bush may that be bark from a tree which I did

right and if you're going number two you got to dig a hole in front of a stick and the one thing that was really really weird is in a desert there's not many hiding places so sometimes you would just use the bathroom in front of people right yeah and it was just very you know I talk to these guys that are very troubled and they just like they're all just sitting there like we don't know when we're going to leave. I've been here forever. At first, I thought it was a great idea. I could see myself like, you know, enjoying it. But these guys are really rude. And I don't feel comfortable being here anymore, but I'm not allowed to leave. So. Like no end in sight type of thing. Yeah. And was this a co-ed experience where there were men and women there?

There's men and women, yeah. Okay. And having no privacy and having to use the restrooms in front of each other. That's what I was getting at. It was kind of awkward. Yeah. It sounds really awkward and it sounds like it's kind of a way to bring everyone down a bit to make people embarrassed and I got told to shut the fuck up when I, and we're not allowed to swear, right? And by a counselor and he saw that I was sharing my food with somebody and he took away my food. Why didn't they want you sharing your food? I don't know. Well, that's so when we, I was just telling Cassie the story and. I kind of shared that tidbit about how that was also some weird rule in the documentary. And she made the point, which is so valid, it's like, okay, wouldn't you think that that would be rewarded if you're sharing food with someone, you're showing compassion, empathy, you're strengthening bonds and whatever. Like, that's something to be admired. Yeah. And that's, yeah, like, for a group that is dubbing themselves a tribe, you know, tribes are all about supporting one another. And to be punished for sharing, it seems very counterintuitive. So I'm not really sure what that's about.

Can I ask why you were sharing? Was it because you weren't getting enough food or they just had something that you had something that they wanted? Like, since they weren't allowed to ask for food, because you were only given what you were given. And that's all you had to use. I think that's the basis behind it. But I could tell that this guy was just malnourished in a way. not like to the point where it was you know he needed to be sent to the hospital but um i kind of was again i was rebellious at the time i didn't like listening to people like that and i shared so i shared like a

piece of bread with him or something like that and i got in big trouble for that they took away like half my my rations of food which is already minimal food as a version of punishment yeah because that's all we really had and that's all we really wanted and look forward to during the day is cooking because what else are you going to look forward to especially Right, you need that. You need that. That's not something you punish someone for. That's something that you need.

It's something you need to survive. Yeah. Yeah. Winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress.

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Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Okay, so you're there. You're talking to other people who have been there. You're like, okay, this guy's been here for 10 months. Everyone else isn't really looking good. And you're going through this experience.

And what I know, but what do you, what decision did you make? Oh, I was like, I think that was like date one. I think when I got there, I was like, I'm out. Like this is not for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the immediate, basically when the blindfolds came off and I saw what was happening, I think I saw the movie holes like not too long ago. Okay.

And they were all dressed in orange and they were just looking like the way they were looking. and I immediately thought, mom, how could you do this to me? Very interesting. Because I was like, I thought she knew about all of this and she just didn't want to tell me. And I started figuring out that people weren't leaving. Once I think when it all switched is when I was like, I'm leaving no matter what, is when I found out that there's no timeline to when you graduate or when you leave. When did you figure that out?

How long had you been there? I asked them. They didn't, the counselors or whoever, whatever they're called, they didn't, they didn't tell me. It was the guys that were there. They were like, and we were in a part of Utah where it can snow. Right. Like winter can set in and you don't have a tent.

And these guys had been there for almost a year. So they've experienced all seasons. They experienced all of it. And you're like, I'm not doing it. Yeah. And you could tell they were damaged just from like kind of like hopelessness. But again, before that, they were hopeless as well. So it was like nothing new.

to them, but worse. Just broken. Take a bad situation to another bad situation. Yeah. And, you know, just the look in their eyes, I'm like, I wasn't necessarily like, I'm going to get all of us out of here. No, but I was like, I'm out. You're like, I'm not doing this and I'll do whatever it takes.

Okay. So once you made that decision, how did you execute that? All I remember, it was a long time ago. But all I remember was, like, midday. No. It was like beginning of the day. I told one of the counselors. One of them was really cool, right?

But he was quiet. He wasn't like yelling at people. He's off to the side. You know, I told him, I'm like, I'm leaving, like right now. There was a lot of back and forth with some of them. I'm like, nope. And I took the dudes walkie-talkie. And I just started walking.

And at first they started walking towards me and try. And I had my backpack. I had everything I needed, right? And which is about 40 to 60 pounds, if you're accounting for everything that's in there. and I just walked away. And you had no idea where you are. No. And what they thought is, because I'm not the first one to do this.

Okay. They thought, since I have nowhere to go, because keep in mind, I'm thinking like, yeah, it's just a couple miles away, home base, right? I'll make it over there. Little did I know it was 75 miles away. Oh, wow. And how many days or weeks in were when you did this? I was a week in.

Like, I'm out. I was, I think the second day, it's stamped. Like, when I was talking with. these people and they were looking all delusional, I was like, yeah, not for me. Yeah, you're like, I've seen what I need to see. There was a, there was a moment, and I'm not trying to make this like a funny situation by any means, but there was a moment as well where people that did, there was people that did go. There was one person and everybody had a name like Ravenclaw or Buffalo Tail or, you name. They gave you some sort of like tribal name.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people give each other trail names and things like that. So maybe, be along those lines. So like once um once this guy graduated what this the one of the counselors would do kind of like a culty thing is he would make him like spread his uh wings or his arms right and this guy would come up and just cut him out of his shape like physically and then and then be like step forward and this guy would just come out and everybody was just like ooh and I was like no like metaphorically like cut them out of one space and then step out like like walk into the new year. you got it in a way like a metaphor supposed to be some spiritual awakening kind of thing that you yeah like you're a new person and yeah so like with all that being said the reason why camp was so far away is

people did run away they would come back because 75 miles is a long way to walk now again I didn't know that until I got there right what you did you walked the full 75 miles the first day no the first day. Keep in mind, I had a 60 pound backpack on, but I walked 13 miles the first day because it was this one hill over the next hill. So every hill, like cliche is like, oh, that's going to be the next. That's it. Like over this next ridge. That's the next hill. That's, and then it never was. And I ended up setting up camp off to the side of a road somewhere. I had this walkie talkie where it could reach almost everywhere, like a satellite walkie talkie, I believe. So I was still in contact with them. They were still trying to talk me into coming back and they thought I was going to come back because that's what

usually happens. But I just learned how to make a fire. I just learned how to cook. So I was able to like be by myself. But they just kind of let me do that for a couple days. And I just requested a car and a plane. A car and a plane. I'm out leaving until you give me a car and a plane. That's how. I'm out. That's how like I just, there was no negotiation. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were, you've walked however many miles now and you're next to a road, did they eventually send a car for you? Three days later. You were just out there. I was living by myself for like three days. And did you stay at that one location or did you keep trying to go? Or once you made it there? One more time. Oh, okay. Okay. And then I realized that I'm not anywhere near. There's no base camp near me. And they were telling me that too eventually to try to give me to come back.

Well, right. And at first you're probably like, well, I don't believe you. And you're just trying to and get me to come back. Yeah. But once you found out for yourself and you really kind of got your bearings and kind of had maybe like an oh shit moment that you were just like, well, I'm just staying put. And when I get my car in my plane, we can talk. The guy I was talking to was very, he was, he was kind of like, dude, I totally get what you're doing.

Like, I would too. Like, he was like the nice guy and everybody else were like, you know, had an agenda. And the guys that I were talking to were threatening me about, you know, if you leave, like your mother's, your mom's not getting her money back. and we're not going to come get you. So you can just sit out there for as long as it takes for you to come back, but we're not going to help you and all this stuff. And they were just,

they're being super rude about it. But in reality, it's like if somebody wants to go home, like send them home. Yeah. You can't hold someone hostage. And you're that adamant about it. Yeah.

If you're that adamant about it. Because also, too, there's like coyotes and everything around me howling at night. And I'm just thinking like something's going to eat me. But scary. A lot of it too is like, I just got there. I'm not really self-sustainable at that point. Well, you're in, not to like knock you down any pegs or anything, but it's just you're a teenager from D.C. with no outdoor experience. Yeah, exactly. Now you're just dropped like it's a lot to deal with. And especially like, I mean, you say coyotes and stuff, but you're in mountain lion territory.

You're like, you're out there. You're by yourself. You have minutes. You know, you can make a fire, but... I had a python in my sleeping bag one day when I woke up. There's no way you had a python. A snake. I don't know, like a snake. That was in my sleeping bag when I woke up. Wait, when you were with everyone still, or is this when you were by yourself?

When I was with everybody still. How was that? I screamed like a little girl. Did you feel it, like, when you woke up? Like, what happened? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was probably about, I want to say, like, a couple feet long, four feet. It was just curled up.

Four feet is a couple of feet. That's huge. That's a massive snake. I don't know the exact link. But it, you know, they were saying about how some of the snakes are poisonous. So you got to be very careful. And what happened to just, because we don't have like, you know, any type of perimeter set up. We don't have tents.

You're in the wild. Sleeping back. Yeah. So it was, that was just an added like red flag in a way. I'm not staying. You're just like, I'm not doing. Yeah, I'm not doing this. Oh, it's terrible.

Yeah. Was that like, I think you referred to it once as like the straw that broke the camel's back. You're like, this is, that was it. The snake. Weekend. I was like this. I was like, I was just like, there's no way that I'm going to be here for 10 months or however long that guy was.

And, you know, you can barely tell what skin color he is because of how dirty he is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you said no one showers or anything. Nope. Nobody showered. And you, and those clothes that were given to you, that was it.

Like, it was, it was one orange over the top shirt with a white, under shirt and like white shorts. I get roughing it, but that's extreme. You should be able to clean yourself. Did you do laundry or was there any? That was all you had. And you just, like, I'm assuming if you wanted to clean it, you just wash it and your water source.

You would have to go. And what's the water source? The cow thing. I know. Yeah. Yeah. So while you were out and after you left and you were sitting around for three days and they're talking to you over the walkie-talkies and they're trying to convince you to come

back, was there any moment where you were. were questioning that you made the right choice to leave? Or were you just adamant to go? I was so adamant. Even walking, the first day, like 13 miles literally with a 60 pound backpack. And I was a scrawny, 18 year old, very, very unhealthy at the time. All I did was drink and, you know, not the recipe for what I should be doing there. And I had blisters all over my feet. And, you know, It was just, but that's how adamant I was about moving farther and farther away from that. Yeah, you were so motivated just to get me from them. Beyond like pain in a way.

Yeah. So you get finally, the nice camp counselor, right, is talking to you and you eventually get your wish. You're removed from the camp. How did that go over? All I remember is a black SUV came and picked me up with one of the camp counselors. they didn't blindfold me, but it was just silent the whole way there. Did you trust that they were taking you to the airport? I had no idea.

No, yes. I had no idea. So that was another thing, right? Because 75 miles without your blindfold on is a long way. It was about like an hour more. And I was just the whole time, I'm like, what are they going to do next? Yeah. And of course, not knowing that this camp is more refined than what started off as like sexual

abuse and, you know, mentally distraught camp of people, you know, I was, I was just like, this doesn't sound like many people make it out. You were like this just scary. Yeah, which is a scary. If I got to do this much to get away from that camp, you know, and people are paying good money for that. And I think that's another reason why they wanted me to stay. Right.

In terms of that. Yeah. So going back to, you find out that you are at, you are actually going home. Yeah. They brought you. did you have any reservations about going home and confronting your, I have to ask, was it your mom and your dad or was this more of your mom's decision? My dad doesn't, isn't, doesn't talk a lot. So I'm like, like, even when I talk to him still, but I think it was more of my mom. Okay. So going back, did you have any reluctance or reservations about like walking through the door and being like, I've arrived? Did you give her a heads up or?

And just to preface, my mom is the best thing in the world. You know what I mean? She made one silly mistake, but she, you know, she's always been there for me. So this isn't like a pattern of bad choices that my mom did. But I was so mad at her. And, you know, and even my grandmother, my nonny, who if you're Italian is the dawn of the family, right? Like crucified my mother from sending me there. It was not happy and was like, you got to get him out of there right now. Why would you send him to a camp like that? He's just a teenager kind of, like he's going to get better kind of deal. But yeah, so I, me and my parents didn't get along after that for quite some time. I actually got kicked out as soon as I came back because she still didn't know how weird it was. Yeah. Well, I imagine, and we talked about this a lot before you came on when Danielle was telling the story, but these places are advertised so well to parents. And I think every parent that sends their child to something like this goes in with the best intentions. They see, you said you were struggling, you were really low in life at the time. And I'm sure your mother obviously

saw that and found a program that she thought would help. And then of course, it turned out not to be that way, which I don't think is her fault. But I imagine as coming home, the tensions between you guys, you just went through this horribly traumatic experience. She just spent a lot of money to try and help you. I imagine coming home to that would be very rough. Even before I came home, I was in the airport, which by the way, my flight got canceled. I had to sleep at the airport. Oh, no. I feel like I just want to go home. She basically said that you're out the door when you get here. Because in her mind, I quit. I gave up. I didn't try to challenge myself to this whole thing. and, you know, it was my fault, not the point in hand of what kind of camp it is.

Right? She didn't know any of that, too. It's not like, like you said, like really good marketing. And even on the phone, I bet they were still maintaining some type of facade. I'm sure. And they were also not trying to give back the money. So that was another thing that pissed my mom off about the whole thing. And she eventually got, I think she got like half of it.

Okay. A little bit of a refund, I guess. But it's a lot of money to send your kids there, which is why I was like wondering why there was a convict there. Well, convicts have families that care about them too. And like I think a lot of people are just really desperate to do what they think is the right thing for the people they care about. And obviously there's a lot of kind of smoke and mirrors when it comes to some of the wilderness therapy programs out there that we've, you know, research and that is coming to light. And like we were kind of talking about at the end of the episode, there obviously.

still in existence today. They're wildly popular and people are still interested in sending their children there because of the promise of what they can potentially deliver, which is a reformed kid. And I think that in some instances, that may be true. And there's a reason that they're still popular because there has to be some success stories. It's just, if it was just failure after failure after failure for years, it wouldn't be going this long. But obviously, it's still troubling because this stuff still does happen. And I think that there has to be some level of trauma in a lot of kids that are put into a program like this, even though you weren't kidnapped from your bed in the middle of the night. You still had knowledge of where you were going. It was still an experience that changed you

and that you didn't really have a great time in, you know? And the people that you saw there went through it hard. And who knows what they think of their experience or that experience. today and where they're at. So what are your, what are your thoughts on the program, that type of program as someone who experienced it? I feel like maybe that was years ago, right? I just feel like from what we saw in the documentary, how bad that was to what I went through, what, 30 years later, I think they probably refined it to a point where they're a lot, they monitor really what's going on out there. Like they have to at this point. they're continuing to do this because there are some parents that'll probably throw lawsuits at them

or whatever it may be to try to shut it all down and they're not shut down. So I bet you there's good ones and there's bad ones, but it really should be, it really should be for like not somebody like me. I wasn't, I was a bad kid. Don't get me wrong. But I wasn't like ready for that. Okay. That was a little much. Yeah, it was a lot. They have a good point in like stripping you of your values, a little bit of militant, but like it should be if you're at the lowest of the low and there's no other choice possible. What actually worked out in my favor is my mom actually sent me to a postgrad school that got my life all turned around. Okay, I was just going to ask. So my question for you is, you know, if this didn't work for you, what did? And whether or not that was like some sort of formal

institution or whatever or just like life event, obviously I'm knowing you and your mom now and your relationship together, I would have never been able to guess that there was such a period of time that it was a really strained relationship, especially after something like that happened. So what did it for you? Like what changed? You know, it was my mom again, but this time a little bit of a better idea. And it was a school in Maine called Bridgeton Academy. So I played football.

So people that are good at sports, but they suck at school. It is what it is. they go there for like a fifth year. Okay. And what it is, it's an all-guise school and you're in the middle of nowhere, Maine. Where similar to Utah, but you have structure, you have facilities, you have food, you have education, you know, it's a lot more structure. And I think the main, I think the biggest thing that turned my life around was that

type of discipline. So you have no distractions, women, no offense, but like all of those distractions, right, for a whole year, I just put my head to the book. I went to the gym, eight. I did it all in a routinely manner and I developed this like discipline to like keep doing that. And that I think is really what it is when you're at that age. It's like the discipline and the routine to kind of make yourself a better person. You don't necessarily need to get stripped of your values because the problem with that is when these guys graduate and they get cut out of their shape and they're, you know, whatever like they're new. They're a different person.

They're going to come back to this world. Right. Well, that's not. comparing them for real life. And then it's going to happen again, right? They're going to be around the same things that they were stripped of and it's going to go right back to normal. So that's why I don't think it's for everybody, especially if you have an addiction problem. Because I don't think when you come back home to your family, you're going to go out and set up a tent and camp outside for another week. Yeah, and be like, oh, well, that's what worked for me. So I'm going to stick to doing that. Yeah, exactly. And that's the only way that I'm going to be better because that's not the real world. And I think that was kind of, they didn't dwell too long on it in the, in the documentary.

And I forget his name. But the kid that was in Costa Rica for like a year or something, because his dad sent him. And then he took him back to Georgia or wherever they were from. And then within a month, he had relapsed and was right back in his old ways. And I mean, the dad in the documentary was harsh. She's like, I should have kept you there for the rest of your life. And that was brutal. That was so subtle too when he said that.

We were just like, I was like, oh, God. Okay. But yeah, it illustrates the point that you're making that you, if you are someone that happens to do quote unquote well in the wilderness environment in that type of strict regimented. If you happen to be one of those people who actually thrive there and then you're just immediately dropped back into the real world with all of your old temptations, ways, patterns, group of people, you don't have that structure anymore. What are you going to do? It takes a really resilient and hard, you know, minded person to make all of those changes. And if you're a kid,

if you're 17 years old and you're like, okay, well, I just did that for six months and now that's over. So I'm going to go back here. There's no, there's no ease. There's no like halfway house to put it in those types of terms. Like, I feel like Bridgeton Academy. Is that what it? Yeah, yeah. I almost said Bridgeton. But Bridgeton Academy. It is. good show. But I feel that is what a lot of people need because it's a mixture of both worlds. Yeah. I think you've made a good point to talking about structure and discipline. And I think that if you, I think that there are, like you said, there's good programs in wilderness therapy and there's bad ones. And I think that probably what differentiates the two is one respect between the counselors

and it goes both ways. Totally. But also creating structure. If you throw kids out in the woods and then all you do is have them hike and try and survive. You're not building anything. People need to learn. People need to be engaged in things. People need some type of some type of teamwork when you're in a place like that. You need to like you need to be getting something back in that. And it's not just the spiritual experience where you're out in the wilderness and away from phones and society. You need to be getting something from it that you can bring back to the real world. There's such a separation of that kind of camp and then the real world that it basically,

like what I felt like overarching theme of all this, I just felt like these camp counselors were watching people rot. That's not right. That's basically what it looked like. Yeah. Because, you know, these guys, some of the, like, I guess the camp counselors will be out with them, but they can leave and come back. We obviously can't.

Refresh. They have shifts. You go take a shower. Yeah, yeah. So these guys come back all fine and all that. But I guess that's the point in like we don't deserve that. They do in a sense. But yeah, I think more so what I continue to do with my life is the same things I learned in

Bridgeton. And that's why I think it's more of an investment to keep them somewhat connected to the real world and technology, but also let them know that without structure and discipline, if you're just going to try and wing everything from here on. out you're going to have a really, really hard time figuring out what you want to do, how you're going to be knowing yourself, which is really important nowadays. All of that is more important through education and like structured walls than being out in the middle of nowhere and just kind of rotting away with malnourished food and puddle water and no toiletries. You need water and you need food

and you can't use food as a punishment for people. That's just inhumane. It's not teaching someone anything. Yeah. And you were only in Bridgeton for a year. Did I say Bridgetton again? Jesus. Yeah. The Academy. I'm just going to call it the Academy for a year, right? Yeah, one year. Okay. So, and that's like, I feel like a good amount of time. I mean, I don't know anything about it more than what you're explaining, but there's at least a timeline that you can be like, in one year I am leaving here, whether I love it or I hate it. It has an end. I gave my mom a lot of shit for that too, because, you know, she was like, there's going to be no women there. I'm like, what? So I'm going to be with all guys for a year in a school in Maine. I didn't even know Maine existed until I told me about it.

You know, so it was definitely still an adjustment. And, but like about a month in, I, you know, I still have really good friends from there that I still keep in contact with. We always pushed each other. And, you know, the good news about a school like that, hopefully like, I should be like their sponsor. But the good news about that, too, is all the credits you get there transfer into college. Okay. So it's not wasted time. It's like going towards your future education goals at the same time. It allowed me to get into college because I graduated high school with a, it's embarrassing, but like a 1.8, no, 2.0 GPA around that.

And I graduated Bridgeton with 3.5. That sounds clearly a better environment for you. All around. Yeah. And I still use all the things I learned from there today. And it's all simple. Well, how we just explained it. And I think that is a good way if your kid is having problems adjusting in their teenage years and they're rebellious and things like that. I don't think it's like bad to send them away if you don't know what to do, but you just have to know where you're sending them. Yeah. Were you nervous when you found out you're going to this new place in Maine? Were you

afraid it was going to be like Utah? I thought I was going to know. No, I thought, it's funny because it was like two years after that. But no, I was, I kind of, it was kind of like a mutual agreement. Like, I needed to get out of D.C. I got myself into a lot of trouble with the law and like all these things that, like, I'm not going to, I'm just going to sit here and rot. Even when I graduated, I went to Keene State and that's where I met Danielle in New Hampshire. Again, another place I didn't even know was part of a map.

It is not far from D.C. I know, right? Like anything up north, I just had no idea. But even then, I graduated from Keen. And as soon as I got home, my mom was like, you got a month to move out. I'm just like, I love you too. Like, shit. So I moved back to Boston.

And again, the whole point of this is like being sent away sometimes isn't a bad thing. Because being in Boston, my life has changed completely than it would have if I was in D.C. Mm-hmm. So. I agree with that. I think being sent away either on. your own volition or sometimes not is ultimately for the greater good for personal development. I'm a big proponent of that. I think people who stay in their hometowns their whole life,

there's something to be said for that, especially if you have a good, you have a good strong support system, good friends, you have a good job, you know, there's something to be said for that. But to get outside of your comfort zone in a way into a new environment with new people, places and things can do really good things. So Daniel, you've been doing that for a while. You've gone everywhere. Yeah. She's beeping around the country.

Yeah. I should be the spokesperson for that. Exactly. That came from the heart. It did. Yeah. Cool. So I guess before we wrap this up, my last question I have is, do you know if

this place in Utah is still in operation today? Oh, man. So you want something like really funny? I hope my mom does see this, actually. She won't tell me the name. Oh, she doesn't want you to know. Yeah. Because I asked him.

I'm like, Mom, you are 69 years old. You are acting like you are 13. Give it to me. Well, so when we were talking about it, like I said, it was 30 seconds into the documentary. I didn't know it was from the 80s and 90s. This, the Challenger thing. It just sounded so familiar. I reached out to Tyler immediately and was like, it was this the program.

And then afterwards, obviously, it comes to light that it was a different version, et cetera. And we were trying to, we were like trying to investigate what it was. Like we were on Google. He's like, it was like a red something. Like red was in the name and it was in Utah. So like we're trying to like. What was super like just weird was the, they had a brochure in the documentary where it had like the red wagons and stuff like that. And the website that mine was was the same kind of layout and had the red wags.

wagon too. Oh, interesting. And it had like, because what it was, I think it was like all your all their stuff they put it in this red wagon and they wheel it to wherever they're going next. We never use that. But that was part of the, you know, what was on the brochure or on the website. And they made it look like, you know, very glittery and not what it was, very deceiving. All advertising. Yeah. Power of advertising. Yeah. So we were trying to like internet sleuth our way into seeing where this thing was, if it was still in existence, but I don't think we've come to the conclusion. It's interesting your mom doesn't, it won't tell you. Yeah. That makes me feel like there's something, something happened with that place or that she won't tell you the name. Right.

You know, trust me, I have all these ideas. And I want to talk to her after this. I'm not going to tell her I did a podcast about all this. Or I might. I just might. I think you should. You've done nothing but praise your mom. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And that's why she didn't want me telling people. because she was such a good mother except that year of 2007. And I mean, even in that moment, it sounds like her intentions behind it. And like we talked about before, everyone was swindled into this. There's really great advertisements. It's advertising, helping your children, which every mother wants to do.

So I, even at the end of the day, even though it turned out it was a really bad decision on her part, I think it sounds like her intentions were very good. Oh, yeah, they were like, basically like this will straighten them out. You know, this will be good. And you know what, wherever place this is, if they're still open today, they probably turned it all around. I hope so. I would hope so too because I know for sure that any challenge to me, I'm not going to

walk away from. And I walked away from that for a very fine reason. And I know that's not how an operation. like that should be conducted in any way. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like I don't know if I would have been that brave or hearty to leave the way that you did, but I certainly think it's warranted the way that you did. Apparently, I was the first person ever escaped.

Wow. Yeah. What should we titled this episode, I escaped? I'm serious. I'm serious. I wish I knew his name. The cool counselor, he was telling me that. He was like, you're the first guy to actually escape.

Most people will try to go far as they can and come back like to say that. That's like impressive and scary at the same time because it just shows how. I'm so curious because the world is so small and our audience reaches across the United States primarily. Yeah. If anyone who's listening right now knows exactly where we're talking about. I bet you they do. Yeah. Maybe we'll find the name for you.

Yeah. I'll let you know. Didn't we look up one, D, called like Redcliffe or something? that. Red, yeah, because I thought, because we thought that there was red in the title. So I typed in red Utah wilderness therapy programs or outdoor school. And one came up that was like red cliff or red sandstone or something like that. And it looked very, I mean, the advertisement, it's like right on par with everything we were talking about. And I forwarded it to him. He's like, no, I don't think that's it. But I don't know. Regardless, we're going to find out. We're going to find this for you.

And by we, we mean our audience. We're not going to do anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you guys don't need to. We've done enough. Yeah, you've done enough. Well, thank you so much for joining us and telling us your story today. Yeah, no problem, no problem. I'm super proud of how far you guys have come. Thank you.

Thank you. All right. Well, I guess that's it. Do you have any final questions or anything you want to leave anybody with? Don't go to Utah. Have you been back to Utah since? No, I just feel like Utah is a strange place. Yeah.

We're going to leave now because we like Utah. We do like Utah, but I do agree. It's a strange choice. Okay. We'll see you guys next time. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye.

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