National Park After Dark - Lights on the Mountain: Pisgah National Forest

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

For generations the stories of ghost lights in the Appalachian forests of North Carolina have captured the attention of locals and piqued the curiosity of travelers. These orbs of light have been witnessed by hundreds over the years, so no one is questioning their existence, but they are questioning their origins. Are they spirits? UFOs? Bioluminescent bugs? Automobile headlights? ETs? Today we discuss the Brown Mountain lights.For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Marley Spoon: For up to 25 free meals, head to MarleySpoon.com/OFFER/NPAD and use code NPAD.Horoscope Weekly with Aliza Kelly: Listen to new episodes every Monday.Prose: Use our link for a free in-depth hair consultation and 50% off your first subscription order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Focus. Listen to work getting done with Monday.com. Relax. As AI does the manual work, while your teams are aligned on a single source of truth. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform, so flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Notice you're limitless.

Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders.

That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Arguably, one of the most secluded, stereotyped, and misunderstood regions of the United States is Appalachia.

Not only a region, but a culture with their own distinct way of life, the Appalachian people are unlike any other in this country. A lengthy history of varying ethnic backgrounds, economic challenges, unique language dialects, and geographic isolation have twisted and molded over time, resulting in the various generalizations, assumptions, and negative narratives often tossed about when speaking about this part of the world. While much of what is purported about the Appalachian people is false or grossly exaggerated, what stands true is their fascination with folklore. Legends of man, bird-like creatures, a six-legged feline, poltergeist activity, a strange nocturnal race of humanoids, and tales of a towering creature with a spade-shaped head abound here. Many of these tales of wicked beasts and creepy creatures deter us from getting too close, shared generation to generation as a type of warning.

But there is a phenomenon that breaks that pattern. Like staring into a campfire, humans have been mesmerized by the spectacle for centuries, which has lured us into the forests of North Carolina in search of the truth. And like moths to a flame, we just can't seem to stay away. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Ooh, we're heading to the south. And this sounds like a very crypt-esque folklory episode. I know.

We haven't done in a while. And I don't want to burst anyone's bubble like way too quick here. But I did feel like it was going to be really paranormal folklore-esque as well. And then it starts that way for sure. But it kind of turns and I don't know, you'll see, you'll see. But anyways, that was the intention. Let's just say that. That was my intention starting out.

Okay, I'm intrigued and confused and excited to know what this episode's about. Well, before we, I tell you, we have an announcement. Yeah, we have a fun announcement. I guess this is something we haven't really mentioned too much on the podcast, but we'll start mentioning it a little bit more. So we do have a Patreon that has been running for a while where we offer bonus content on. But as of starting in September, we are revamping the whole Patreon to make it more fun, more interactive, and to offer more to you all.

We really appreciate the support that you have given us. And we want to give back by adding more content and more exciting things. So that being said, we just wanted to let you all know what we're going to be offering coming up. in that and what we have been offering. But what is offered on our Patreon, our ad-free episodes. We have a monthly outsider-only bonus episode that is not included on our regular feed. We have ad-free trail-tail episodes that also have bonus content at the end. We will also be doing this is something that is relatively new we've been doing over the past few months

is we will have monthly interactive live stream episodes that are really fun because they're live. We talk to you guys. You get to hop on with us. and we get to talk one-on-one one-on-one and meet you, and it's really fun. We also, on our Patreon, we offer priority access to newly open spots on our group trips. So if someone cancels, we always announce it on Patreon first for any of the open spots for Patreon members to snag first. And then also what we're offering on there is that we will be giving early access to our merch

launches to people on Patreon. You will have open access to our merch shop. 24 hours before our launches to make sure that you get what you're looking for because we know that our merch tends to sell out kind of quickly. So we wanted to offer that. And then also a fun thing, we're just adding like all the things to Patreon. But we will also, because so many people have been asking for this, is we will be handwriting our own itineraries and recommendations for certain travel places every month. We will be giving out our own itinerary that we write and have ideas for for places around the country, all national park related or national forest related. And also on

Patreon, we will be offering exclusive merch, which is exciting as well. Yeah. And there is a cool function. There's like a chat box that anybody on any tier on Patreon can contribute to. So it's just, it's always going. I get notifications every single day about people chatting about different trips they're taking if anyone has any ideas or recommendations. Book recommendations are on there a lot. like anything and everything, the community is really awesome over there and very supportive. So there's a group chat going. And the last thing that we are offering on Patreon only is exclusive Patreon giveaways. So we've done them a couple times in the past, like sporadically.

And we'll continue to do so. It's not going to be like every single month. But some exciting ones that are happening now is we're doing an annual Park Pass giveaway. And we're also doing a giveaway of signed copies of. Kevin's book if you heard his episode last week. So there are fun things happening over there. There's different options of tiers. We're just highlighting a lot of the different offerings we give. So if you're interested, then go on over and do some research, take a look at the information and the tier options. And if it's something you're interested in, we'd love to have you. We just wanted to make sure that we

highlighted that we are kind of revamping it because it's been in the works for a little bit. And it's something we're really proud of. So we'll see you there. Yes. All right. Now to my episode. So I actually decided to do this topic after it was brought up on a live stream with Sabrina that we did over on two girls, one ghost. Yeah, remember the girl came, I forget her name, but one of the listeners that contributed that evening said that she had an experience with this phenomenon. And so it kind of got my wheels turning because I'm like, I have that written down somewhere. And I went back in my notes and one of our listeners named Carrie wrote in a trail tale, like episode suggestion email over a year ago about this. And it's been hanging out in my list ever since. So Carrie gets the

full credit. Okay. So today, we are going to be talking about the brown mountain lights. Ooh, are these like orbs? Do you not remember the story the girl shared with us? It was a year ago? No, on, yes, but, yes, but the girl on when we were on the live stream with two girls on ghosts. Yeah, who saw the orbs that were like darting up and down and. Yes, yes, yes. So it is an orp episode. Kind of. Right.

Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm still intrigued. I'm very interested. Good. So as always, of course, let's get acquainted with the area as it is especially pertinent to today's subject. And although I just described the general Appalachian region, in the introduction, which spans a great distance, we're going to hone in on one particular

national forest within this region. And that is Pisgah National Forest. And side note, the Appalachian region spans throughout parts of 13 states, but I had to throw in a little flash trivia for you, because it's been a while. Oh, no. Okay. Okay, so the Appalachian region spans throughout parts of 13 states, but Do you know which state is entirely within the Appalachian region? Like the whole state is Appalachian? Yes. The whole state is considered the Appalachian region, whereas the other 12 just have parts of their states considered that region.

And there's a hint. It's not North Carolina. Oh, okay. South Carolina. Okay, I'm going to give you one other hint. At the end of every trip, we sing a song to each other. In that song, what song do we sing to each other at the end of every trip we're on? I don't know why this is.

I know this is not the right answer, but I'm thinking of that song, she's so brave. No. Country roads. Take me home. Country roads. West Virginia. There you go. Okay.

We got there. There it is. Okay, we got there. You really don't do well with tests. No. Tests. I freak out in every. Every test.

Okay, well, thankfully that was the only one. I just saw your face, like, just went blank. Well, that was it. And you passed, kind of. Anyways, thank you. You're welcome. Just needed a lot of the leading. This episode is brought to you by Prime.

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Pitska National Forest located in North Carolina is roughly 500,000 acres of primarily hardwood forest. It's home to hundreds of miles worth of trail systems, rugged mountain scenery, and is a hot spot for whitewater rafting, along with various other outdoor recreational activities that we talk a lot about every time. like hiking, camping, fishing, wildlife watching, etc. This national forest is also home to the first tract of land purchased under the Weeks Act of 1911. And I think we may have touched on this act and this piece of legislation in the past, but the TLDR version, the condensed version, is basically this act was signed into law by President Taft,

and it permitted the federal government to purchase and maintain land in the eastern United States as national forest land. essentially creating the National Forest System. As prior to the Weeks Act, the federal government owned no large swaths of land intended for conservation in the eastern United States. This national forest is also home to the nation's first forestry school, which is now maintained as a historic site, and also has two of the first designated wilderness areas

in the eastern United States. Nearly 100,000 acres of the forest near the town of Asheville, North Carolina, was actually once part of the Biltmorest State. Aside from this estate being the site of America's largest home, it is also a national historic landmark and is renowned for its paranormal activity. There's a lot of spooky stuff happening over there, which is, it feels like a, it feels like an episode of its own. So I'll just leave that there. And millions of people visit the National Forest every year. And many of those

people are coming from nearby popular destinations like Asheville and others travel via the Blue Ridge Parkway. I loved Asheville. Ashville was one of my favorite trips ever. I love Asheville. There's just such good vibes there. And it's beautiful too. I stayed in that. So me and Ian went in the thick of the pandemic. So pretty much everything was either shut down or like very, very restricted. But we still had a great time. And we stayed at a hostel. And we didn't see a single other soul. It was so creepy. It felt like it felt kind of like post-apocalyptic. It was really strange. But yeah, Bon Paul and Sharkies, I think was the name of the hostel. And it was just so weird. We're like, are we allowed to be here? Like, no one. Are you open? Yeah. It was so bizarre. Anyways, okay. Back to the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Known as America's favorite drive, the 469 mile long winding road connects Shenandoah National Park in Virginia to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in North Carolina. And the road itself is managed by the park system and meanders through sweeping vistas, some of the highest peaks east of the the Mississippi and Rolling Hills, as well as pastoral landscapes, and a lot of different historic sites along the way as well. Lots of people drive this parkway for its views, and obviously getting to one park to the other, hiking and picnicking opportunities, biking is super popular here, but others use it to access various viewpoints that may offer them the chance to see one of the country's longest lasting and enduring mysteries. And that's the Brown

Mountain Lights. So what the hell are these lights and what do they look like anyways? The lights often referred to as ghost lights are more often reported near Brown Mountain and Linville Gorge in Burke County, North Carolina. They are described by people who have seen them as small beach ball-sized star-like dots or orbs of light about as bright as a star. They have been reported in a huge range of colors, including soft white, golden, yellow, blue, and even up to like, an orangeish red tint and they're known to behave pretty strangely appearing and disappearing without light trails and sometimes in almost a firework type of display or action and they're usually rapidly moving but can also operate at various speeds and they are often witnessed hovering and pulsing in the air

along the ridge lines and amongst the trees but they are also known to rise from the bottom of the gorge and up into the sky, either slowly fading or soundlessly exploding from sight. And that's it. Yeah, that's so interesting. It's so hard to think about what that could possibly be. Well, you and everyone else, sister. Let's just say that. Already, this episode is making me just think about how I have not been in the southeast in years. And I would love to plan the trip down there. And this would be a fun place to go. I would love to go and try my hand at trying to spot some of these lights, which are, we'll get to it, but they're rare. They're well known and cemented in legend enough because they've been spotted often enough, but it's not like you go and you're guaranteed to see these lights. Sure. Yeah. According to legend in oral histories, the lights were first reported by the Cherokee and Kataba peoples. According to their beliefs, around the year 1200, there was a vicious bloody battle between, the two tribes. Many warriors were lost and following the battle, the women of both tribes

set out into the woods with lit torches scouring the forest and bridgelines for their fallen friends, brothers, and husbands. The scene was so intensely tragic and left so many mourning people, the light of the torches still haunt the area. Later in the 1770s, a German engineer named Gerard de Bram was in the area, and he was the first non-Indigenous person to witness the lights while exploring the Linville Gorge area. In his writings, he suggested that the lights were due to nitrous vapors emitting from the mountain that just were simply reacting with the wind. Early settlers and civil war soldiers who witnessed the lights

believed they stem from the story of a local man from the Jonas Ridge community who murdered his wife and young child and went on to secretly bury them on Brown Mountain or nearby Cold Mountain. The lights appeared shortly after the crime hovering around their hidden graves. The lights caught the locals' attention and they went to investigate them. The glowing orbs would hover and dance in the forest, but would disappear and reappear in another location or jut off in a new direction as soon as the searchers got close to them. Finally, the dancing lights settled above a deep ravine, where the group found a heap of fieldstone.

After removing the rocks, they discovered the bodies of the woman and her baby. Unfortunately, in the meantime, the murderer escaped and was never heard or seen again. Yet another tale tells of a heartbroken woman named Amanda. In 1775, she and a young man named Caleb who lived in a nearby village had fallen in love, and Amanda, who lived on Brown Mountain with her father, would receive nightly visits from her lover. They agreed to marry, but on the date that they agreed upon to meet, he never showed. The lights are said to be Amanda's spirit, scouring the mountain by torch in search of her lost love. The most widespread legend, however, has been captured and perpetuated,

by the bluegrass song, The Legend of the Brown Mountain Lights, written by Scott Wiseman. Originally released in the 1950s, it explains the origins of the lights as a result of a lifelong search. And the story goes somewhat like this. And of course, you can listen to the song on your own, but this is kind of the condensed version. Brown Mountain was named after the Brown family, a prominent wealthy family who owned huge amounts of property in the 1800s, including the mountain itself. The family were enslavers and were known around the area, to treat their enslaved servants kindly, which sounds like an oxymoron to me, but moving forward. I guess probably kindly in comparison to other people. Right. Other enslavers who, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. After being injured in the Civil War, one of the Brown family's men came home and went off on the mountain, a place he grew up around and knew quite well to hunt, bringing little provisions and only a couple of lanterns. He was only planning to be there for a short while. But as midnight approached, and he had still not returned, one of his enslaved servants named Jim went off looking for him, and neither ever returned. Family, friends, and other enslaved servants scoured the mountain in attempts to locate the men, but they were unsuccessful. And since then, the bobbing and disappearing lights have been said to be the lanterns of Jim and the young colonel trying to find their way home. Others say they are just from Jim, and their lights are his search carrying on from beyond the grave for the colonel.

And of course, this is a dated song and is often scrutinized for its kind of like unforgivable. It's like an unforgivable romanticism of slavery, pretty much. Like when you listen to the song, it's very like, it's very dated and it definitely romanticizes slavery in general. Kind of like he's searching for his master. so loyal to this master for all of time type of thing. Yeah, making it seem like slavery was something that they wanted and were loyal to the people enslaving them. Yes.

Yeah, so many have... Gross, but okay. Yeah, so many of this, since then, obviously, this story came out decades ago. Many have re-told the bones of this story in which the lights were emitting from lanterns of local searching for Jim, the enslaved. servant who after becoming separated from the colonel and realized that he was alone and had an opportunity, he took the chance and seized that opportunity to run to freedom. I like that.

That is the version that's kind of like, they kind of took the bones of that story and probably put a truthful spin if there is such a thing. He probably did. He disappeared. He's like, yeah, I'll go look for him and I'm out. I head out. It would be the hope. I mean, that would be hopefully no one ever heard.

from him again because he made it to the north and started a new life. So obviously I'm just listing a lot of legends and various stories. I'm going to say probably none of them are real. Spoiler alert. In case anyone was like really married to any of those ideas. It's all folklore. Yeah. And today, paranormal beliefs regarding the lights vary from all of the above. Like a lot of people kind of put their eggs in those baskets. And some of them kind of lean towards different camps, like they're interdimensional beings, their UFOs, their fairies, even a different race of people that are living inside the mountain itself. Like there's a lot of different areas being thrown around. Yeah, schools of thought. The first published account of the lights came in 1913 when a group of fishermen from the Morganton

Fishing Club saw the lights several years prior, but kept quiet because when they did kind of share their experience, they said that they were laughed and mocked and accused of seeing things when they did share what their experience was with their friends. And in that published account that came out in 1913, part of it says, quote, the mysterious light that is seen just above the horizon almost every night from Rattlesnake Knob near Cold Spring on the Morganton Road with punctual regularity, the light rises from the point of observation just over the lower slope of Brown Mountain. First at about 7.30 p.m. and again at 10 o'clock. It looks much like a toy fire balloon, a distinct ball with no atmosphere about it.

It is much smaller than the full moon and much larger than any star and very red. And after going up a short distance, wavers, and goes out in less than one minute. While this group of men swore by what they saw, many others who have lived and worked in the same area, never saw the lights or had ever heard of them. Josiah Lafayette Wiseman, who camped at an overlook on the west. restroom of Linville Gorge was different, though, because he had heard of the lights and, and according to him, had seen them on multiple occasions. He reportedly had saw the lights for the first time back in 1858 and would often watch them

from the same spot for years after he first saw them, and he was totally enamored with them. So you're saying there's hope that we could see them? Well, just listen, I'm not. I'm halfway. I'm not even halfway there. Okay. There's a lot more to come. The flashes of light would appear around the same time of night within 30 minutes of the same time each night. Wiseman watched them so often. The location that he would visit was later renamed Wiseman's View.

And that's one of the places that people go to see the lights today is Wiseman's view. And what time of, and what time of day was he seeing these? In the evening. In the evening. Around the same time every night. And they were darting around and being all. That's what he says. Yeah.

Okay. And his story wasn't given much attention and actually only became popular more than 50 years later when his great nephew retold it. And that retelling was the inspiration for the song I just talked about. Okay. I know there's a lot of dates and things happening, so it's a little confusing. But what really propelled the legend into the forefront of North Carolina lore was the arrival of a hotel. In the 1890s, George Anderson built the Levin Hotel. which sat pretty prominently looking east over Brown Mountain and the entire valley.

It was a really, like, prime location. Hotel and nearby residents began reporting the mysterious light sightings in the 1890s, followed by the first published accounts showing up in papers, like I said, around 1912, 1913. And people flocked to the hotel to see the lights. The hotel changed hands and names several times over the years until it burnt down in 1950. and a new lodge was built over the original site, but it has since been closed to the public since the 70s, and now it's just a private residence. So whoever has that place has a cool spot with a lot of history. Yeah, a nice little slice of history there.

Interest in the lights grew so popular that the government started to take notice. One of the stories that intrigued them came from a Mr. R.T. Claywell of Morganton, North Carolina. and this is a summary of his encounter and essentially his plea to the government to investigate and look into the lights. On July 31st, 1913, Claywell and a number of friends were sitting on a porch of a cottage about 150 yards from that hotel around 10 o'clock at night when a hazy sort of light was noticed across the valley on Brown Mountain. He said, we all watched it intently with mixed feelings of awe and wonder, while shivers ran up and down the spot. of everyone present. In a few minutes, while we all directed our gaze intently on the two hazy spots, just off to the right of the light in the direction of Morganton, we saw this brighter light appear at the foot of Brown Mountain, where Upper Creek cuts it at joy. It appeared to be

swinging to and fro, pendulum-like, and then went upward about a distance of 200 feet. When it first appeared, it seemed to be round and yellow and gained steadily in brightness, becoming redder and redder as it went up. When it reached its greatest height, it appeared like a flaming red ball, but with the strange thing about it was that it did not cast off a particle of light. All the air around it seemed to be as dark as ever, and that added to its ghostly appearance. It was one of the strangest experience I believe I have ever had, and many of the folks were near fainting. And then he goes on to say that there was a woman that was in that crown that did faint. And it just, why throughout history, Everyone's fainting over a thing.

I've never, I've literally never seen one person faint in my life. I've seen people faint, but it wasn't out of shock of something happening. Right. That's what I'm explaining. Low blood sugar. Like a medical. Like a medical incident, not like, oh my God. So crazy.

And like maybe people were just full of drama back then. You know, no one actually fainted out of shock. It was just that everyone wanted the attention of fainting out of shock. Of what fainting then draws. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It was just so funny.

I was in these days, I would, I would fake faint. I feel like you'd be a good fake fainer. For sure. Thank you. I don't know if I could keep a straight face. I could for sure. Yeah. You would commit.

I'd be like, water, please, please. Fan. I need a fan. Someone help me. One of the ones that like come out. Yeah. And what are they called? I don't know.

the actual term for it, but a hand-fell. Yeah. Anyways, yeah. So stories like this one prompted the government to actually intervene. So different stories like Claywells kept popping up and they were actually petitioning officials to do some sort, like, they're like, do something about these, like, they're freaking us out. So twice within an 11-year period between 1912 and 1922, government studies were ordered. And the U.S. Geological Survey was ultimately tasked with investigating the lights. The first time in U.S. history, Congress was requested to investigate mystery lights. Interesting. Oh, my God. Pop quiz. Flash trivia. Sorry, I lied. I just came up with this one right now. Okay. Do you know the next time the government was requested to investigate mystery lights? Like in history. Like this was the first time.

And this is in the 20s. And this is in the 20s. It has to do with. aliens? Yeah. What's like the most famous? So Travis Walton? No. No. But I'm so proud that you just remembered that. No. It's before that. The most famous place, like UFO place. Oh. In New Mexico. Yeah. In Roswell, New Mexico. Yep. I've been there. They ultimately concluded that the glowing orbs were caused by distant headlights from cars or trains or were the result of brush fires. And the report findings were almost immediately rejected and didn't like that's not it that can't be it yeah and the report and its findings didn't stop other investigative groups from pursuing their own observation parties because like I just mentioned their their explanation was not accepted really by the public and especially the locals who

see them frequently or saw them frequently one of those other observation parties that was launched was in of 1916, and it states that an expedition to study the Brown Mountain lights was conducted, and the group essentially split into two. One party went to Adams Mountain, and the other went to Brown Mountain. One group saw the light over the summit of Adams Mountain at around 8.10, and again at 9.45 p.m. about 5.10 a.m., so they saw the lights twice at night, and then again in the morning around 5.10 a.m., they saw this lights again over the south end. of Adam's Mountain. And none of those appearances were seen by the other group. So one group saw them three times and all the locations that they saw them, the other group didn't see them. But at around

1, 152, the second group saw two lights. And they described them as floating orbs about the size of an ordinary street lamp. They saw them from a distance of about a mile or so out. And they describe them as a flash amongst the trees on the east side of Brown Mountain. The lights moved horizontally, floating in and out of ravines along the mountainside, past dead pine trees, and then returned about half the distance of what it just came, still passing through the same line of dead trees and stuff that it had just previously floated by. And then at 1213, the lights disappeared as suddenly as they arrived. So both groups, saw different displays of lights at different times, but neither one saw what the other one saw. The same one.

Right. Yeah. Interesting. But they all have the same accounts of the same type of phenomenon happening. Right. And it's hard to assign that type of sighting to a car or train headlights because when I was first reading a lot of these accounts, especially the Josiah Wiseman's from Wiseman's view or whatever. He was saying they arrive around the same time every night within 30 minutes of each other. It's the same pattern and it happens with such regularity that he would go all the time to see them. And to me, that sounds like a train on schedule. Yeah, something on schedule. Like something on schedule.

That was my first thought. But when they're describing different patterns, especially a regular move, and things like that, it's hard to. And also, I don't know, it's kind of like, I feel like you would know if it's a train. Trains are really big and loud. Yeah, they're big, they're loud. And also, they sound like they're talking about multiple lights where trains usually have like, what, like the big giant one on the front and then maybe a couple other ones. But they're all going in one uniform line. Yeah, they're not like hopping around. And I feel like if one person came forward and was like, yeah, these crazy lights, the next person who went out would be like,

that's a, that's a train. Right. That's what was happening. Like, all of these people wouldn't be on board that they had no idea what it was. Yeah. Which is so it's just. And the government didn't go in and say that's a train. Yeah.

They said that it was caused by either distant headlights from cars or trains. Oh, they did say that. Yes. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Anyway. They're like, yeah. They're like, okay, stupid.

This is a train. But here's the thing. Like, trains were relative, I think I mentioned this later on in my notes, but trains were relatively new to the area around the time that the Brown Mountain Lights were starting to be reported a lot. So that also, that correlates. That checks out. It's like, okay, so all of a sudden there's this big rise of sightings at the same time that trains and electricity are starting to come into the area for the first time in human history.

Like that seems like, from a scientific viewpoint, a big, like, this is the answer. but clearly it's not as simple as that. So another reason that a lot of people rejected those findings, though, was because of different incidents. So, for example, the biggest one that people point to is the flood of 1916. There was this huge massive flood that swept through the entire area. The entire Kataba River washed out a ton of bridges and railroad tracks in the area totally decimated the area.

And all railroad traffic was stopped within 50 miles of the area. area, but the sightings of the lights persisted during this time, that there was no train traffic or automobile traffic. Several years later, the Smithsonian Institute caught wind of the mysterious lights and together with the U.S. Weather Bureau decided to do their own investigation. In 1921, it was announced that they concluded the lights were similar to the Andes lights of South America, which is basically a phenomenon described as being a constant glow around summits, with occasional outbursts, which look like beams of a searchlight. So they're like, this is a natural phenomenon.

We've noted it in other areas. It seems pretty similar to what you're describing. And again, this conclusion didn't garner much support, especially when people learned that neither the Weather Service or not geo had sent a single investigator to Brown Mountain to do the investigation. They kind of just reviewed. Right. Right. What other people were saying.

Right. Yes. The legend continued to perpetuate taking very. forms and was whispered around campfires for years. Interest in the lights waxed and waned for decades, but in 1962, it skyrocketed again. Paul Rose, a resident of Jonas Ridge, started sharing colorful reports of his nightly encounters with these lights, either by himself or when he was with other groups of people, when he or a group of people were top brown mountain from a tower that he had built. He described them in a lot of different ways, including that when the lights hit him,

so like he's talking about they're coming really close to him and he's having physical contact with him, that he felt almost weightless. And sometimes he would feel really nauseous when they were in his presence. Or sometimes they gave off a sort of like staticy feeling in the air. Wait, so they're actually touching people now? That is what Paul Rose. Paul feels a little dramatic to me. Well, just wait, Paul is not the most dramatic of the story and he'll see why. Yeah. So he's kind of perpetuating all the stories. He's sharing it with the newspaper, all that.

His story gets spread around. He gives a couple of different interviews to media reporters about these supposed encounters. And almost instantly, the entire area was swarmed with tourists and hopeful visitors that are going to now maybe have their own experience. Sounds like they're really good at marketing. Well, it got so busy that people started constructing little parking lots and charging for parking. And little concession stands started popping up along the highway because it was so choked with visitors.

Like, it's like if you're stuck in traffic, here's a hot dog. Like, you want to buy a hot dog? Here's an orb-shaped popsicle. Yeah. And hoping to cash in, Rose petitioned the U.S. Forest Service for permission to build roads, other observation towers, hotels, and restaurants on the mountain to support this. in flux of tourism, but he was declined. And it's so funny, I'll post a picture of his tower because I'm, I envision like a true observation tower. And it's literally, have you seen

the episode of this might be niche, but the episode of Alone where the guy, I think he won, or maybe he got in second place, but he got the moose and he built this. Yes, he built his, platform. Yep. I've seen that. It looks like that. It looks like I don't want to be putting my full body weight on. It's not like super sturdy. No, it's like a bunch of tulip force. Yeah. Like put together like in a tree. It looks like a half built tree house. But anyway, so when I saw the picture, I was like, oh, okay, this one in a different direction. So the flash of interest that this whole thing garnered fizzled out pretty quickly just as much as it kind of began because the majority of visitors that were coming never saw anything, never saw any of these mystery lights. And then

word spread about that and people just stopped coming. Rose's original tower, which was built without permits. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I would imagine was dismantled. So it is not around today. 1962 also brought another big development in the Brown Light story, aliens. Ooh, we like aliens. This is where it gets. Interesting. Okay. North Carolina resident Ralph Lale went on several camping trips on the northwest side of Brown mountain between May and October of 1962 to different spots that he heard around town were great for seeing these lights. He went out with the intention of trying to find them on several trips. And this is all, I feel like I don't have to say this, but it's all according to him.

Yeah. Another dramatized version of events. Yeah. So according to him, the lights got close to him, especially after he laid down and became really still. He believed that they were intelligent in nature. and in some of the trips felt like they were beckoning him to follow them somewhere. Did he? Oh, did he? Oh, yeah, he did. Just wait. Oh, God.

On one particular trip, he followed the lights one evening to an area near a large, solid rock. He followed and was led into an underground room through the rock. The lights are beckoning him. He's following the lights to this big, massive rock. They disappear into the rock, and he follows them and somehow gets through the rock? Into the rock. And now, he's... Okay. He, right, yes, we're following. And I lost my spot. Does he do mushrooms? Just

quick question. Are you tripping? Yeah. I mean, honestly, that would explain a lot. It's going to explain a lot, for sure. He said he followed them into this rock and was led into an underground room with clear glass that was kind of shaped in like honeycombs and that lined the interior of the entire mountain. A voice told him not to. to be afraid and explained that these lights were beings and that they were from Venus. The lights chose him to tell the story of a different planet that was once destroyed by mankind and how these lights now feared that mankind were going to do the same type of thing on Earth. On the different camping trips that followed, he had similar encounters and the lights instructed him to tell everyone that the lights were the result of a chemical gas reaction so that their true nature would never be revealed, which he does at first. They also asked him for his help in stopping the tourism to the area because they didn't want people poking around and investigating

what the lights truly were. And then they informed him that he and seven other people would be saved if their kind were forced to destroy mankind before mankind destroyed the earth. Honestly, legit. It kind of concerns. Valid. Valid. And it keeps going. It's actually kind of like nice. Okay. The lights. This is a really nice mushroom trip. Yeah, this is a pleasant one. Not that I know. I've never done mushrooms, so I can't. I haven't either. I'm too nervous, honestly. And I don't like the thought of like losing control. Like losing my mind or going somewhere else or whatever. I don't know. We've talked about this before. But yeah, I can't. If I did though, this would be where I'd want to go. Ideal. Into a rock, into Venus light creature realm. Who are nice. They seem pretty friendly. They're looking out is what they're doing. Yeah. I'm going to save you.

Like this is we're only telling you. You and you alone can be trusted with this information. Inside this rock. Next up, so it doesn't stop there. The lights then took him on a trip to Venus. He like legit went to Venus. He said that the rock like honeycomb type vaults somehow turned into a space. base ship that he was then taken to Venus on. And when he got there, he met other human-like people who were similar to him, but not really. And they had survived the destruction of their home planet after a nuclear war. And the lights were proud of Lail for spreading the story of the chemical reactions, because remember, they're like, hey, just tell people it's like some natural phenomenon and they'll forget about it. So they're proud of him for sharing that information,

which then led to disinterest in the lights on the mountain because they're not spooky paranormal. He claims he stayed on Venus for a few days before being returned to Earth, and upon his return to Earth, he wrote a book, which he self-published called The Brown Mountain Lights by Ralph Lale, in which he describes his experiences with these lights and encourages mankind to embrace universal love rather than to give into conflict, and he has since never returned to the mountain. Well, I like the sentiment. I agree. Like, it's a very creative...

Sounds like an interesting book. I basically just told you what happened in it. Yeah, it's, I don't know how drugs work, I guess, but you would think that like all this would come from a single trip, but it, he went several times throughout a several months span. So is he taking... Did he have a nice mushroom sandwich before each trip? But my mind is like, so do you go into the same trip every time? That feels not right. I feel like you wouldn't just like hop back into a continuous storyline in various trips.

Or did he have one crazy trip that made it feel like it was several weeks? Well, can anyone account for his whereabouts? I don't know. Like he said he was in Venus for days. Did he have anyone who was like, hey, why were you just gone for five days? And he's like, oh, yeah, I was on Venus hanging out with my homies out there. They're looking out to save the planet that I will be the only. one inhabiting soon. How sad would it be though if like we're all kind of like poking fun at him.

But if it was true and he's like I'm literally just trying to save us and spread love and you guys are being dicks. And that's what I'm trying to teach against. It's like that don't look up movie. I loved that movie so much. I did too. And everyone's making fun of them like for this meteor that's coming to destroy earth. And they're like poking fun and making t-shirts out of it and just like, being like you're stupid and then the whole world ends because no one listened to them. This kind of reminds me of that. Yeah. So did he successfully save the planet though?

I mean, we're living on it and I'm going to say no. Yeah. But was this supposed to happen in his lifetime because they were going to save him? Right. And so maybe something's going on and we're actually doing better than we think. I don't know. I don't know. But that's Ralph's story.

They're waiting. I would hope if that's true. I'm team Ralph, honestly. I believe him. Okay. And that's great. You can be team Ralph. I'm team Ralph for the pure sentiment of it all.

I mean, it makes sense. Was he a conservationist or anything? No. I think the, so I read a book. I mean, I mentioned it. I'm about to mention it actually. But I read a book for most of this called the Brown Mountain Lights, history, science, and human nature explain an Appalachian mystery. by Wade Edward Spear. And it came out in 2017 and it's a super comprehensive look at the lights in

every way. I mean, like, it's almost, you know, it's over 200 pages long. And it's a very pragmatic view of the lights. And they go into all the different publications back as early. It's just so detailed. It's wild. But anyways, that's where I found Ralph's story. And I think they mentioned that he had like a, he ended up having a roadside type of business that sold like crystals and alien figurines and his book. He's just trying to. He's just trying to spread the word. Yeah.

Spread the good word. Which also takes bravery, let alone if any of that was real or not, that takes bravery to be like, I stand by my experience, whether it was drug induced or not. Yeah. I'm just saying like sometimes people go on these like ayahuasca. mushroom, acid trips, and their whole lives are changed. And I'm just saying, case in point. Maybe Ralph was dipping his toes in something more than just rocks in the woods.

Yeah. He had his own rock, if you know what I mean. I don't know what that, what does that refer to? Isn't that cocaine, rocks or crack? Smoking. Smoking crack, yeah. Which is cocaine, I think. Which is cocaine in rock form. Which I'm also offended.

You were so shocked when you heard. I never did cocaine. I can just picture it so vividly in my brain, you doing cocaine. Why? Do I have a face for cocaine? Yeah, you're in college. You're in the bathroom. There's a few girls in there.

You're doing some toilet lines. Okay. For the record, I've never done. Never has happened. Anyways. Okay, God, this episode's all over the place. Okay, so all of this sounds super alluring, right? Like all these different legends and stories.

and sightings and all these explanations that have kind of just endured for so many generations. And everyone loves a good legend. It's what makes the world go around. And that's what you'll find. Legends that are repeated in article after article on the internet and included in pretty much every history of the lights that you'll find. I mean, those stories that I outlined are the most popular and are usually in every single article, at least mentioned.

but there are dozens of others as well that I just, I didn't mention for brevity's sake. But according to Wade Edward Speer, like I said, the author of the book, The Brown Mountain Lights, History, Science, and Human Nature explain an Appalachian mystery. None of these stories are true. What a shock. Spear, who grew up in the area and was fascinated with the lights throughout his childhood, decided to dive into the history of the lights after retiring from his lifelong career in geology. His book, published in 2017, is the culmination of several years of the last year of

the most comprehensive team investigation of the lights ever undertaken and includes contributions from so many people. I mean, there's geologists, astronomers, biologists, local historians, professors, outdoor enthusiasts, and more. It includes results from over 6,000 hours of nighttime photography and data from over 90 individual expeditions. So if you're interested in this subject, especially from, like I said, a more pragmatic and historical documentation review. So he's denouncing them period. Like they don't exist. I'll get into his stance. I'll get into his stance. But if you're interested in all that, like if you're like this phenomenon is really cool, but I don't believe that they're the ghost lights of, I almost said Stephen Bishop of Jim and the Colonel or whatever,

then this book is probably where you should go. I bought it on Google and just downloaded it and read it. So this is the book for you. And he has a lot to say about it. Of course, like I said, it's over 200 pages, but it's not very supportive of aliens or fairies or venous people or the like. Sounds like a downer. Sounds like he's not really fun. Yeah. Nobody likes a party pooper.

Well, I have to share his point of view. So again, without getting into it in too much detail, to start the first thing that you'll see when you look up the legend of the lights is these supposed indigenous stories about the great battle and everything I described. And he states that the first mention of those indigenous references, of the lights didn't come until 1938 when a newspaper article about the lights came out, which provided information and that story, but with no sort of source. So he believed those stories were not authentic and essentially made up to enhance that

newspaper article in particular. And he goes on to argue that many, if not all, of the legends, have no source of information, although he does admit that that is literally what folklore and legends are. Like there's no proof behind them, hence why they're legends. Why they're a legend. Yeah. Thousands of loggers also lived in the mountains prior to and in the time that the legend really took off. And not to mention the numerous accounts of early settlers who wrote at length about their experiences in this new place, all prior to the 1920s, none ever included any sort of mention of the lights.

Any writing making mention of the lights like the Debram, the Debram. the Debram guy that came in the 1700s because people are like, hey, well, what about him? He was here in the 1700s and noticed them. And he questions the context in which that note was made of. Like, it can't even be proven that he was in this exact area when he wrote about that. So that's kind of discredited. Okay. And then he reportedly argues that the lights have only been observed since electrical lights

were first introduced into the area, saying no evidence has ever been concretely. found of them being reported, including oral histories in different indigenous tribes of the area, before the days of electricity or the first train that ran through Western North Carolina in 1858. And remember, that's like when Wiseman saw them in the 1850s. And yeah. So he's on the, he thinks that it's the train or some type of electricity. Well, it's interesting because he goes, Well, hold on. We'll get into it. So his stance is not a bizarre one. A lot of people are kind of in his, on his side of the fence with this. Various research groups have studied the phenomenon for decades here. There have been expeditions from Oak Ridge Isochronic observation network, the Appalachian State University Department of Physics and astronomy and more. And of course, like I said, Nat Geo got involved and the Weather Bureau and all that. And theories abound. Everything from man. handmade explanations like vehicles, trains, aircraft, light from nearby buildings, satellites, various outdoor lighting sources, or lights from people outside, recreating outdoors, either

headlamps or flashlights or campfires or just different sources from people actually in the forest hiking or camping or simply people pulling pranks because they know that people are there trying to see the lights. And then there's different natural phenomenon to consider, which he outlines in his book as well. There's bioluminescent insects, moonlight reflections, natural flammable gases, meteors, comets, different bushfires. Literally, this book goes into every hypothesis that exists. So he thinks it's a bunch of fireflies that are just out there? Well, he doesn't, he doesn't say what he thinks it is. He says what it is. How can I say this? Sorry, he doesn't propose a, this is what it is. He just proposes every single hypothesis and kind of be that it could potentially be and go and runs through

them all and then we'll say like this is likely or not likely and he does say he does say such a long list of origin suggests we're not all seeing the same kind of lights yet we are all calling them the brown mountain lights so which is also another really good point it's like well what type just because you see some sort of light in this area is that what we're defining as a brown mountain light because if that's so then we're all screwed because everyone's seeing different stuff and then calling this one and no one has any photos of it or. Well, there are photos and stuff, but a lot of times they can be easily explained and ruled out as other things.

But not of like this actual phenomenon that everyone. Well, it no one, it's kind of hard because we don't know like across the board this is a brown mountain light. Not these lights, not all these different types of lights. It's hard to narrow down and get everyone on the same page of like, okay, this is the phenomenon we're talking about because otherwise, like, there's lights everywhere now. That's a valid point. Like from different perspectives, people might think that they're seeing what was described to them, but it might be something totally different. Correct.

And he also goes on to say, research finds an estimated 99% of the supposed mystery lights are manmade or natural in nature. Our investigation is the most comprehensive and complete study of its kind ever undertaken. However, no supernatural, supernatural, or paranormal lights were found to exist. Our efforts have found no evidence of ghosts, spirits, alien, or extraterrestrial UFOs. Just as no evidence of these have ever been found anywhere on Earth, there is no evidence that they exist on or near Brown Mountain. To which I say, you lost me. Like I was like, okay, I'm really for this approach. And then that is fresh.

To say like they don't exist at all. Yeah. It's like, okay, so we're just going to discount everything people have been saying for hundreds of years. I'm just saying in general, not even with the lights. Like he was just like just so you know there's no evidence of ghost spirits, aliens, or UFOs literally anywhere on the planet. So they're not here either. That's fresh to say. And also is such a blanket.

statement of I don't believe in this stuff, so it doesn't exist. Like, I guess there's no, like, scientific, well, I don't know. I think there might, I don't know, whatever. There are definitely evidence of ghosts. Aliens, we all know exist. The government came out and confirmed, but we all knew anyway. And he's basically saying there's an explanation for literally everything and it's not paranormal or super natural in nature. Again, party pooper. Again, yeah, I don't, I don't wish to from us. I'm giving your book a lot of hype and then you just, yeah, you lost us. He argues that the age of reason has arrived for the legend of the Brown Mountain Lights,

but also does admit that the legend is so strong that it will likely surpass his investigation and his book and all of his work just as like the previous studies have resulted in it. It's like he just poured so much time and effort and years into all of this. And he's like, yeah, well, I do know. know that like no one's probably going to pay attention to this. Which is fair. It's like, yeah, because we disagree with you. Also, it's important to note that while the book talks a lot about what the lights are not,

it does not definitively say what they are, in fact, are. In a similar vein, Daniel Canton and his colleague Lee Hawkins of the physics and astronomy department at Appalachian State have been working on studying the lights since 2011. For years, they found nothing and were about to conclude their study. entirely, but then their cameras caught something of note, which they couldn't explain. Canton said, quote, this is the first time we've had a dual detection. And what he means by that is multiple cameras have to catch the same phenomenon in order for them to consider it. Because it could have been like an artifact or something if it just was noted on one camera.

So that's what he means by dual detection. It was something out there. It came on and went back off virtually instantly four times over several minutes. We've eliminated. all of the things that are likely man-made natural sources, so we're left with no real explanation other than it's whatever the lights might actually be, end quote. Those who have been believers of the lights were elated that a team of scientists who have been working on this for so long and are so kind of like this voice of reason have captured something on camera and have come out in public statements saying, we really have no idea what this is. And so people are now hoping that this documentation has lent credibility to the stories that have been shared over the years,

maybe not every story of their origins, but that there is some sort of unexplained light phenomenon going on out there. Well, it's a chemical reaction that's happening. So we already know that from the aliens who told us that that's the story and we're sticking with it. Over time, the Brown Mountain Lights have made their way from the mountain haulers to the mainstream media. In the 60s, bluegrass musicians Lulu Bell and Scotty released the song, like I said,

The Legend of the Brown Mountain Lights, written by Scotty Wiseman, which has gone on to be covered dozens of times by many different acts and has even been performed at the Grand Old Opry. They have appeared in dozens of books, both fiction and nonfiction, and a handful of television series like The X-Files, Ancient Aliens, into the Unknown and Mystery Hunters. They have been the inspiration to dozens of artists and were the subject of films like the independently produced 2014 sci-fi thriller Alien Abduction, and National Geographic, even named Brown Mountain as one of the best places to see a natural wonder.

Cool. Which is really cool. Now we have to go. Now we have to go. So if you are like Cassie and I, want to go yourself and see them yourselves. Remember, they're rare. Obviously, if you decide to venture out, there's no guarantee. But if you want to roll the dice, I have a little bit of instruction. for you, where to go and when. Although the lights have been seen at all times of the year,

and during various different weather conditions, it is said that the fall between the months of October and November are supposedly the best times to see them. And it's also been said that you have a better chance of seeing them after a rainfall and at night. There are several places that the lights have been witnessed. However, Brown Mountain Overlook, Lost Cove Overlook, and Green Mountain Overlook along the Blue Ridge Parkway, as well as Wiseman's view on State Road 1238 are popular locations. North Carolina 181 also has a Brown Mountain Overlook that is a popular location for light seeking hopefuls as well. So to kind of wrap this whole thing up, I think what makes this topic so intriguing, and I feel like so many people feel this way as well, is because there's

no denying that the lights exist and that the lights are real. People are seeing these lights. It's endured for a long time. And while there's room for debate about nearly every other topic, of legend and lore out there, like a crypted alien or some sort of creature and stuff, there's debate for whether or not those exist, period. But for the lights, they have been witnessed and they've been documented. But the mystery is what are they? Not do they exist? It's what is their nature, their true nature. What am I saying here? So, of course, I have no idea. But I do know that they remain an enigma to curious travelers, have cemented their place in the hearts of locals, and continue to dance in the Appalachian Woods. And that is the story of the Brown Mountain Lights.

Wow. I would be so curious of people listening to this episode, if anyone else, I know we've spoken to people who have, but if there's more people who have witnessed this before and if they have their own theories on what it is. But it definitely makes me intrigued to go down there and try and catch a glimpse of these. Me too, because like I said, reflecting back, on the different reports and hearing kind of like the descriptions, especially from the early 1900s. They like I said, they do kind of correlate pretty heavily with trains or automobiles, just the way that people have described them sometimes. But where it gets different, like where it kind of gets more interesting is the legend and

the sightings have persisted. And I think it's kind of like an insult to, what is it, an insult to my like insult to your knowledge or insult to your intelligence intelligence yeah when you're if like you or i went and we saw some type of thing that was like appearing disappearing floating here there everywhere whatever and someone's like that's a train i'd be like i know what a train looks like you didn't see it how can you say it was a train right so i like i feel like i really am on as much as we just like gave him shit the author of that book i agree with him probably the most as far as like I think the bulk of 90% of these sightings are probably manmade or natural, no natural

phenomenon, especially when it's like, well, what are you describing? Are you describing a light from a tower over there? Is that what you think is a brown mountain light? Are we talking about something else? Like, I think most of it can be explained, but I always leave room for the unexplainable and I think it would be not wise to consider that. I agree. To not discredit other options. Just because you can't explain something doesn't mean that it's not real. I mean, throughout time and history, we're always learning and discovering new things about the world. So to see something and just because you can't explain what it is doesn't mean it's not real. Right. And I think that's like the whole thing. So yeah, anyways, it's just been, it was a really

cool topic to learn about because I didn't know much about it. And now I think it's, like you said, another reason to go down and revisit North Carolina. Yeah, we can do a North Carolina, Tennessee Great Smoky Mountain trip. Okay. 2006. I know. I was like, and I'm not even going to discuss when we could do that. Hope everyone has a great week and we will see you next time. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at npadpodcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our outsiders-only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free, unlock monthly bonus episodes, and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more

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