National Park After Dark - Madness in McCarthy: Wrangell - St. Elias National Park & Preserve (Part 2)

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Today we follow Elishaba and Jerusalem’s escape through the unforgiving terrain of Alaska. With their father right on their tail and temperatures dropping far into the negatives, they’re in a fight for survival. *Content Warning: This episode contains domestic and sexual abuse.*For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Sierra Club: Book your 2025 trip today at sierraclub.org/outings, and use code NPAD to get $100 off.IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping.BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Everyone, welcome back to National Park After Dark. We are here for our part two from last week. Yeah, so if you are not familiar with our podcast, hello and welcome. This is the wrong episode to begin. But we're happy you're here. Yeah. thanks for coming but you should scoot back an episode to part one of um i don't even know what you're titling this so sorry uh i'll st elias something yeah madness in mccarthy wrangle st elias

part one is the episode before this one but thank you for joining us who you're new i'm cassie and i'm daniel and we have this is also a pretty a sad story to start off with too but it is very, very interesting. It does happen in Wrinkle St. Elias up in Alaska. And yeah, a lot of stuff goes down. And I will say that this is one of those episodes where I researched two books for. And I'm trying to do it justice with the podcast. And I'm definitely putting in a lot of the main points. But this is definitely a story where you should read the books. And I'll go into those a little bit more. But before we jump into this episode, I do want to just do a little bit of recap from last week just to get everyone back up to speed on where we are and what's going on. Perfect. Thank you.

Because it's been a week for me too, which feels like a betrayal on your part to me directly, because I thought we were going to record them like back to back. I apologize. I'm sorry for betraying your trust. Okay. I need a refresher just as much as everyone else. Perfect. Well, I have a little recap here for you. So last week on part one, we met the Pilgrim family and Robert Hale, who was the father, along with his 15 children and his wife, Country Rose. Now, this family had left New Mexico. They lived a very isolated life off the land from. Oh, I remember. Nickleson's land. Yep. Yep. Very interesting ties. There was a lot going on there, but they end up moving to McCarthy, Alaska, which is right inside of Rangel St. Elias National Park.

And they move there to live a life in a more remote area, which is pretty much the most remote that you can get is up there. And is why that this family went there. So a lot of people were really intrigued with this family. They were a very religious family. There's 15 children. And then the husband and wife. And from first glance, they seem like a very normal family, a very religious family. And people really romanticized to them.

They ended up in headlines because of their lifestyle. But behind closed doors, Robert Hale, also known as Papa Pilgrim, was using religion to severely abuse his family. He isolated them. He would not teach his children to read or to write. And he also was sexually abusing his daughter, Alicia. Now, after constant run-ins with the National Park Service and making enemies with their neighbors and really just overall causing a lot of havoc in McCarthy, it ended up that Papa Pilgrim sexual abuse towards his oldest daughter was discovered by his sons. Now, after his sons found that out, they fled the family and begged Alicia Bud to come with them.

However, she refused at the time, and she was, it was a really scary thing. She's 27. She had never left her family before. She was really intimidated by that. But after she saw that they successfully left, she became inspired to leave as well. and she wanted to hatch her own plan to escape. So where we left off last week was she was getting ready to make her own getaway. All right.

I, yep, it's all coming back to me now, especially the Jack Nicholson thing. Yeah, that just sparked the whole episode. Jack Nicholson was there. So before we dive into this episode last week, I had, I mostly talked about this other book that, so I researched two books for this episode. So last week we talked about Pilgrim's Wilderness, a true story of faith in madness on the Alaska Frontier by Tom Kizia, who was a reporter who covered this story. And we dived a lot into the relationships that Pilgrim was making and a lot of the loss he was kind of breaking and his run-ins with the National Park Service. But this week, I really wanted to focus on Alicia Bo's story and I wanted to focus on her escaping the family. And she actually goes on to write her own book, which I have on my Kindle.

And it is titled Out of the Wilderness, Escaping My Father's Prison and My Journey to Forgiveness by Alicia Borkinson. And like I said before, I'm going to cover things in this episode that went on. But I encourage people to really, if you're interested in the story, read her book. I mean, it's really well written, especially for a person who grew up. up not being taught to read or write. It looks like she did have help. It says with Mike Yorkie on this. So I think he co-authored it. But I mean, to publish your own book after what she's been through and she goes into firsthand detailed accounts, it is a tough story because she really dives into exactly what happened to her in her life. But if you're interested in her story, she describes

so much more than I'm going to today. But I'm throwing in everything. we can fit into an episode. Okay. So going back to where we left off, it had been over a month since Alicia Bra's brothers had left the family. Things had largely gone back to their like quote unquote normal life. However, things were much harder now that the sons had left. They were missing a lot of helping hands since they had departed. And even though it was nearing the end of April, it was very much still winter time there. They were gearing up for the thaw of winter or what is known as the breakup period, which actually served to be some of the harder months for getting supplies and traveling. Because in the wintertime, they could use snowmobiles and they could go. And then in the

summertime, they had bushplains or they could travel by horse generally. But when the ice thawed and the breakup period would happen, their snowmobiles could no longer pass the rivers that they needed to get past to get into McCarthy and to get to town. And the weather was also still too bad to bring in bushplains and to ride off on horses. So basically, after this thaw, this breakup period and the thawing, they were stuck at their homestead for up to like six to eight weeks. Now, during this time, Papa Pilgrim had only become a lot more angry since his brothers had fled. And both Alicia and her mother were really careful to avoid confrontations with him. He was watching them a lot more heavily now. He was constantly preaching how sinful it was to leave your father behind and deeming

the sons lost to God. And he would snap at everyone in the family over the smallest inconveniences. He was just like clearly not doing well. You could tell he, you could really tell that he lost control when some of his sons had left. Even though weeks had passed since the brothers had fled, Alicia Bess needs and hopes of escaping only grew. She was terrified and often second-guester. herself or wanting to leave, but ultimately she knew that she had no other choice. On one particularly horrible night, she finally made up her mind, and that is that it was time to make her escape. And before I go into this night, I do want to offer a trigger warning, which I did for part one, but just as a reminder for people, there is talks of abuse in here. There's sexual abuse and there's

things that are going on. So if you're not in a space to hear this, then we'll see you for another episode and totally understand that. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L. every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen.

Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. So on this particularly horrific night, her father had asked her to go to bed with him. And for the first time ever, she mustered up the courage to say no. Usually she would just do what he asked because she knew that there was huge punishment if she didn't listen to him. But this time, she had just had enough. And she was feeling she was getting that courage and that bravery to get up and leave. And she was thinking about it and thinking about her brothers.

And for the first time, she said, no, I'm not doing this for you. I will not. come to bed with you. Well, didn't you mentioned that her mother was encouraging her to escape or do something, right? Yeah. At the end of the last episode, her mother was also finally voicing up, like, hey, you need to leave. This isn't, I want, I want better for you. Please, please leave. And the whole family's feeling this way now. But behind closed doors, no one's saying this in front of Papa Pilgrim. Oh, no. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Terrifying. I kind of got that sense. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, even her mom is telling her that she needs to get out. So she's having all these

voices and support from her family that I think maybe contributed to her finally being like, no, enough is enough. So she continued to say no to her father, but as she knew what happened, her father did beat her. He argued with him and told him that she wasn't comfortable with what they were doing. She tried to reason with him that in the Bible, you're supposed to be faithful to your wife and that it wasn't right what he was doing, but he didn't listen to her. He didn't agree with her. And in the end, he was relentless. He wouldn't stop hurting her. So she finally gave in. But unlike other times, she had argued with him so much that he agreed to let her keep all of her clothing on. And instead, he forced her to perform sexual acts on him that night. So this was another

horrible, horrible night for her. But it was also this realization of, okay, this is so horrible. I have to go. This is this is it for me. And not only was this night so horrible, but also was this moment of, this is my time to leave. Because earlier that day, she had heard in a passing conversation that her father had plans the following day to go to McCarthy for gas. So one of their snowmobiles had run out of gas halfway to town that they needed to refuel and they needed more for their other snowmobiles along with other provisions. The plan was that him, Noah, and Job would take two snowmobiles to McCarthy to go on this fuel run. This was actually pretty rare and unusual because Aliciaba's father actually never left the homestead or left Aliciaba alone. If he did, he would bring

Alicia with him. So the fact that he was going with his two sons and leaving Alicia at home was pretty much unheard of. The fuel runs prior to this were usually done by Joshua and Joseph, but those two sons had left. So now he was, he had fewer options, but he was also really hesitant to send his other sons alone to McCarthy because he was fearful that they would also try to run off. So he was in the spot where he had to leave Alicia Ba alone. And he also didn't want to bring Alicia to town either to be in front of people, but he also had to go with his sons. So for the first time, in a very long time, Papa Pilgrim would be leaving the homestead. And Alicia Butte knew that this was her moment. She knew that if she didn't take advantage of it now,

that she wouldn't have another chance to escape until the road between them and McCarthy became more accessible again in late May or even June, because this was right before the breakup period would happen. So her plan, when her father and her brothers left the following day, she would leave two. She would wait a while, then she would grab one of the remaining snow, and leave towards McCarthy. She knew that there was a significant risk of seeing them in town or along the 13 mile road. And she knew that she needed to time it correctly so that she left long enough after them so that they wouldn't hear her snowmobile coming up behind them, but also soon enough that they wouldn't meet face to face on the trail. And she really had to plan this accordingly. Because she knew it would be a quick trip that they were just going into town and turning around. There was no like dilly deliying. They didn't have plans there. It was just like there and back. She also realized that even though she needed to miss them head on head on the trail, that that was probably going to be impossible just for the timing and the way that I was going to go, that she needed to find a way off of the trail to hide from them as they passed right by her. So there were all these things going on in her head of how can I, how can I successfully do this without anyone knowing that I'm leaving? But she knew that if she did make it in time and if she did make it work, that she could escape and she saw it.

But she also knew that if her father saw her, that he would most likely kill her. And she felt this very, she writes about this a lot in the book. She's like, I know that if he sees me, just from the violence I've seen and how angry he's been, he's most likely going to kill me if he sees me trying to leave. If everything went well and she wasn't seen, her plan was to then take a snowmobile. past McCarthy, remained completely unseen by the residents there, and travel several more miles into an abandoned hunter's cabin that she had come across the year prior. She knew that she could hang out in this cabin and that her father would not find her there. She also knew that given the hard life she'd already been living, that she had the skills that she needed to live out in the wilderness,

and she wasn't concerned about being on her own for a while. So that following morning, Alicia Bo woke up before her father and started her day. It was a little after night. 30 a.m. and the sun had just began to rise that April morning. Not long after she awoke, her mother did as well and began preparing breakfast in the kitchen. Alicia rejoined to help her. As usual, it would be bland oatmeal for her and her siblings, while her father had a much more sustaining breakfast. Her father had diabetes and had to be careful of what he ate, so oatmeal wasn't great for his blood sugar, so therefore he wasn't served that. Instead, that morning, they made him scrambled eggs with the precise amount of salt and pepper that he liked, topped it with cheese. With that, they made him

bacon, toast with sugar-free jam, and made him his morning coffee with just the right amount of powdered cream that he liked because they knew if they didn't do it exactly perfectly that he would get very upset with them. Alicia didn't have breakfast that morning, which was pretty usual. By the time she was done taking care of her father because she would do his insulin injections and just do anything that he wanted in the morning for him to get ready. There was usually no food left. between the other siblings. Also, Alicia Bo was not allowed to eat any meal without her father's permission. And that morning, he did not give it to her. It wasn't a surprise to her that she wasn't getting breakfast, but it was a bit disappointing because she knew that that morning, she had a plan to

embark on this really treacherous journey and she could use any extra fuel to do it. But she just said, you know, it is what it is. I'm just going to have to do without. Now, Aliciaba hadn't told anyone of her plan to leave. There had been conversations in past. saying that she should leave, but she had actually always denied wanting to or planning to leave. She had always just said, you know, this is too hard. I can't do that. I'm scared. Whatever it was, she never really said her full plans or what was on her mind of how much she really wanted to leave. But she was especially closer with her younger sister, Jerusalem. Jerusalem was just 16 years old at the time, and she felt that she really needed to tell her her plans before anyone else.

When she got a moment alone with her out of earshot of their father, she told her her plan would be to leave that day. Jerusalem, who had been dreaming of a different life herself, insisted that she would be coming with her. Alicia didn't argue, even though she did have concerns and embarking on such a dangerous journey with her younger sister. She knew exactly why she wanted to come and she didn't argue. That morning, the two of them didn't dare to even look at Papa Pilgrim wrong or say anything or do anything to raise suspicion. They were trying to act as though everything was completely normal. Papa Pilgrim left the house for the fuel run around 11 a.m. with Noah and Job, but he seemed very nervous. Before he left, he instructed country rows and everyone else not to speak to each other at all unless it was related to chores that needed to be done.

He also threatened that he would be questioning each and every one of them when he returned about any conversations that were had when he was not present. Now, this was a common scare tactic that he did because he would actually bribe the younger, siblings with candy bars to tell anything that they did wrong or didn't listen while they were gone and their kids, you know, like, yeah, I'll tell you a candy bar, great. And this was a common tactic that he did because the younger children didn't really understand what was going on. He also ordered Alicia Ba to not be in the house with the family for any reason at all while he was away. And before he left, he asked Alicia Ba to pray for his safe journey, which she did do for him. As he was leaving in this moment of sadness and realization that this was most likely the last time that Alicia

Alicia was going to see her father. She watched him hop on to his snowmobile to leave and she actually ran after him yelling. And she did this because she wanted to give him a hug and say goodbye one last time before he left. And he simply looked at her in the little side mirror, saw her running and yelling to him and sped off, ignoring her completely. I mean, that's pretty aligned with who he is. Yeah, that action.

But just like the more and more you say about this person is just, it's just so unbelievable that someone can be so awful. So cruel and so controlling and so just tapped, honestly. Like, and it has nothing to do with, I know we kind of touched on this a tiny bit in the beginning. of or in part one. But it doesn't even have to do with religion. It's not anything about that. It's this is this person. Yes.

That's the problem. It's not any sort of religious view or whatever. It's this person's interpretation of that and actions that he's using religion as a justification for a wrong in the wrong ways and all that. Yeah. It's just. And this story happening in the early 2000s is also really weird. to like put together in my mind and I don't know why that is I think it's because anytime I hear

something like this I always think back about like where I was like this was unfolding when I was a child as well you know it's easy to put yourself in kind of these shoes of like okay she's going through this this day what was I doing I'm 11 years old when this is happening where was I what was I doing and it and to see how much of a contrast it is too it It's just unbelievable that people were living like this at this time and going through this. And going through this sort of thing all over the world every second in different ways, you know, clearly not this exact way all the time. But yeah, you can't help but reflect on even right now. I do that a lot, especially with everything that's going on in the news and always, you know, I always think about that when I hear something.

that happened, I don't know, 24 hours before. I'm like, oh, my God, I was doing this while this was happening to this person. I was eating dinner or taking a shower while this awful tragedy happened. Yeah. Yeah. So Alicia was going through this right now and this last moment of him just totally ignoring her in this moment of where she felt this deep sadness of, you know, she's conflicted. She loves her father, but she knows he's abusive and knows everything that he's doing is wrong and knows that she needs to escape, but at the same time, it's her dad. So this was kind of the final sign for Aliciaba that what she was doing was really the right thing. So once he was out of sight, she ran back to the main house to grab Jerusalem and get ready. Knowing that none of her siblings had any means

to contact their father while he was away, she did announce to everyone that she was leaving. She was met and she was met with nothing but support. They encouraged her to leave and her sister, Hosanna, even called their brothers to help her. In a quick conversation, Joe, Joseph told Aliciaba that he was proud of her for the decision that she was making and asked her to come to them instead of running off into the wilderness to that hunter's cabin that she had plans for. And she agreed and Jerusalem got onto the phone with him to work out the details while Alicia abe grab the supplies. Ultimately, Jerusalem's conversation with the brothers ended with them deciding that they would meet at a meeting point that afternoon when they got into McCarthy. While Jerusalem was on this phone call, Alicia Ba packed bags of flour, rice, raisins, cheese, chocolate chips, and other non-perishable food items to keep with them along their journey. She also grabbed a pan for cooking, lighters to make a fire, an axe, two sleeping bags, and a first aid kit.

She didn't know how long she would be outside for, and even though she was meeting with her brothers, she wanted to plan for the conditions. And also, after she met with her brother, she didn't know what type of living situation she was going to have. So she wanted to be prepared. And with that, the temperatures that day, it's April, but it's really cold out, especially at night. So she put on snow pants and her warmest jacket that she had. Along with the necessities for survival, she packed a white bed sheet. Actually, she packed two white bed sheets, which she would throw on top of her snowmobile

to conceal it when she decided to hide from her father along the trail. And lastly, she packed a Bible. Even though she wasn't taught to read her right over the year she had taught herself. So she had a very minimal understanding of reading and writing at that point. Just when they were about ready to go, they did meet their first major roadblock of the journey. Papa Pilgrim had been anticipating a possible escape, and he removed the spark plug from their only working snowmobile so that it wouldn't even start. He had also disconnected many of the hoses within the engine of the snowmobile. But not in Papa Pilgrim's favor at all, he also raised extremely resourceful kids who were.

basically full-blown mechanics because of the way that they had been living. And Hosanna, who was especially handy, jumped into help. She found a spare spark plug and reconnected the engine within minutes. One last thing before Alicia Bela left was that she wrote a note to her father with that little bit of reading and writing skills that she had, stating that she was going into the mountains to fast and pray, which was a lie, but she hoped would stop him from looking for her for a little while. Then she grabbed his Bible. Inside of his Bible, there was a small pocket on the leather case that it was in. And in that pocket, he kept a memory card.

And this memory card held images of her father abusing her. And she wanted to take this with her. She didn't want him to have it. So she opened the... I understand the sentiment of like trying to get him off her trail by saying something like that. But do you really think he was going to believe that? No. Especially with how controlling and unnerous, he's sabotaging things.

There's no way. There's no way. He would believe that. I mean, good effort. For sure. And I totally understand why, like with this last hope of like, maybe he'll wait a day to find me if he doesn't think I took off. And I'm still. There's just no way.

Especially, like, ordering everyone to not speak when he's not present. Like, he's just so paranoid. Paranoid is the word. Yes, paranoid. There's no way that he'd be like, oh, yeah, maybe she's, like, there is no benefit of the doubt or anything like that, I feel. Yeah. Yeah, to say, he didn't even want her in the house around the other family. He sabotaged the snowmobiles that they have. Like, he's clearly on edge here. I note like that I don't think would have done anything, but I get why she would write something like that. And so she goes into this book for the memory card because she wanted. wanted to take that with her. She didn't want him to have a hold of it. And when she opened the book, she found that it was gone. He had actually taken it to McCarthy with him because he was afraid that she would get her hands on it. What if? Yeah. Yeah. By one o'clock that afternoon, they were all set to go. They hugged their siblings and their mom. And Country Rose was actually smiling and really happy that they were leaving. And she actually told Alicia about that she hoped that everything worked out.

hoped that her suffering was now over and that her father wouldn't catch her and things would be okay. And then with just one bag strapped onto the snowmobile with everything that they were taking with them for their new life, the two girls hopped on and they were off. The excitement of finally leaving was short-lived. After just a hundred yards, the snowmobile stalled and they couldn't get it to turn back on. When they opened it, they realized that a belt was broken and they had absolutely nothing to fix it with. But again, like I said before it, these girls were hearty and they were determined. Jerusalem trudged back to the homestead through the snow and minutes later, she arrived on another snowmobile that had been previously broken. Hosanna was able to fix a wire that was broken and she

started it up right away. They moved all their belongings to the new snowmobile and they were off again. They had lost a significant amount of time fixing the snowmobiles, so Alicia B pinned the gas at full throttle moving quickly down the trail. She knew that she needed to get to the point where she could hide from her father. She had this one spot in mind where she's like, this spot will work. I need to get here, but they were losing time with all the delays that they had had. They navigated through Rangel St. Elias National Park, crossing snow-covered terrain. They crossed rivers, passed through wooded areas, and accelerated up steep inclines. Finally, things were going well and they were making good time. But as they crossed over the ridge line, the engine sputtered and came to a stop.

They had run out of gas, and they were in the direct path of where their father would be, miles away from McCarthy with nowhere to go. Things for a moment seemed hopeless, but a moment later they looked up, and sure enough, their other snowmobile that had run out of gas previously and was left on the trail, that their father had plans to fuel up was in eyesight. They prayed that their father had actually stopped before going into McCarthy to fuel it up before going on his way. They grabbed their belongings and ran as quickly as they could through the snow to it. Sure enough, when they unscrewed the gas cap, it was full. It started up in one try and they were off yet again. This was really exciting for them, but it also created another big problem. Their father would see the snowmobile much earlier than before because now they're way closer to McCarthy

and realized what had happened and that they had ran off much sooner than they had originally anticipated. in. This meant that they needed to get off of that trail a lot sooner. Several minutes later, they arrived at Alicia P's spot where they could be hidden, and this was this area of a grove of trees. So she steered off the trail, and they grabbed the white sheet and covered up the snowmobile. Then Aliciava covered the tracks leading to them, which was something her father had actually taught her to do in a way to evade child services or other law enforcement. She was now using to evade him, which is kind of ironic it's ironic like it's ironic and it's badass like she's taking all of these skills that her father taught her and now she's using it for her own freedom and every time i read this in

the book i was like you go girl like you get you have these skills you've got this i just felt like the whole time i was reading i was just cheering her on like yeah you got this you have it and he taught you all of these awful things for awful reasons but right now it's gonna save you and you can do Yeah, like the conditions in which she was taught, whether it be the different mechanic skills or, you know, covering your tracks and all of these different things, they were taught under really difficult and awful circumstances and probably for the wrong reasons. For sure. But she still has this skill set that she can now draw upon for her own benefit, you know. Definitely. And it's just, it's what a turn of how the tables have turned.

They have, and I'm just like, yes, Alicia Ba, you go, like, you got this. And they get to the spot. She has this idea of the spot that she can hide. They get there. She hides her tracks. And they sit there and they wait. They have the snowmobile off and they're just waiting. It's eerily quiet. And they're just waiting to hear the sounds of snowmobiles come by. Less than 15 minutes after they had settled in, they heard the snowmobile engines coming closer and closer their way. Now, as they got closer, they got closer, they hid underneath the sheet along with the snowmobile. So they're concealed as well. And she peered out from under it because she knew that if they were spotted, she needed to see that right away. So they could hop on. They would have seconds to hop on the snowmobile. And she had full on plans to try and outrun him on a snowmobile if he saw her. So she's peeking out.

She's watching, waiting for the snowmobiles to come by. And then they do. First, she sees her father's snowmobile. Behind him, there's Noah. and behind Noah his job and each of them are pulling a sled with fuel and provisions on the back. Elisheba and Jerusalem held their breath, not daring to make a sound. Papa Pilgrim kept his eyes forward, focused on the ridgeline in front of him. Neither him or the boys even looked in their direction as they passed by.

My heart. Yeah. Can't imagine those moments. The two of them waited for a few moments. before stuffing the white sheet back in their bag and taking off because now they knew that they had only about 15 minutes before their father would come across the abandoned snowmobile on the trail and he would undoubtedly turn around after them. He would know immediately what was going on and she knew he would turn around. So they get back on the snowmobile immediately and take off and she's

moving as fast as she can and the safest way she can because this is really rough terrain to get through but she's just, she's trying to go as quickly as possible. And not before long, they were in McCarthy. But they decided to stay on the outskirts of town following McCarthy Creek to avoid being spotted by anyone. There was no sign yet that their father was following them, but they knew that he would eventually get into town and ask if people had seen them. And Alicia wanted to make sure that no one had. Jerusalem had made plans for them to meet their brothers just outside of town along the only road into town, McCarthy Road, which we talked. about a bit in part one but before going there they took a small detour through some other snowmobile

tracks that they found and alicia but drove them in circles with the other tracks merging hers with theirs to try and throw off her tracks so when papa pilgrim did follow them because she knew he was going to find her tracks she needed him to lose her and so she drives around and she eventually comes out in another direction follows some other snowmobile tracks and veers off then they drew to a grove of trees just outside of view of the road and they waited for their brothers to arrive. 30 minutes went by, then 45 minutes, then almost an hour with no sign of their brothers. At this point, the sun was setting and they decided that they couldn't wait out in the open any longer. It was just too dangerous.

They needed to find shelter and they needed to hide from their father before it got completely dark. They found a spot for the snowmobile and again they threw the white sheet over it to conceal it. And they hit it on one side of the McCarthy Road. And then they decided that they wanted to not camp next to it because if he found the snowmobile, they didn't want to be within the area. So they actually walked across McCarthy Road to the other side, concealing their tracks again as they went. And they found a spot under some spruce trees to camp out.

That night, the temperatures went down to about negative 20 degrees Fahrenheit or negative 28 degrees Celsius, but the two of them huddled in their sleeping bags and they tried to sleep through it. It was so cold that they couldn't stop shaking at all. They were just like huddled, uncontrollably shaking. The cold went right through all of their clothes, their sleeping bags. They're freezing. And there's almost this realization in this moment of we could die out here. It is so cold out here. We could die. But they were so set on getting away. from their father that they knew that they had to risk it. They couldn't go to town.

They knew that he could be around. They just sat there and waited. And nothing was going to move them from that night. And as they're sitting there shivering in the cold, knowing that they're doing what they have to do, they start to hear the sounds of their father's snowmobile circling nearby. He's like a shark, like just circling. Yeah. I hate just like paint sharks in a bad. We like sharks.

Like I hate when people are like, they're like wolves circling the thing because it like vilifies them and I don't like doing that. But you get what I mean. No, it is. It's like it's very predatory. Yes. Yes. Very. He's like he's hunting them down essentially is what he's trying to do. And they stay concealed under the spruce trees. They hear him circling around and circling around. And eventually the sounds of his snowmobile goes off into the distance. And then they can't hear it anymore. The following day, they stayed under the spruce trees. and fear of their father spotting them. They ate raisins and cheese and used the snow as a source of water. Periodically, they could hear snowmobiles wandering around and they could just picture their father out looking for them, asking people in town if they had seen them, and they knew that no one would be able to say that they had. So they felt good about their location and that they couldn't leave where they were.

Out of fear of being found, the two of them spent the next five days and nights under that spruce tree in the unrelenting cold. Five days. Well, yeah. They're like, we can't move from this spot. It's like it's too risky. We would rather freeze to death here than be caught by our father.

And they weren't freezing to death either. They had brought the right supplies. They were really cold. Don't get me wrong. But they didn't get hypothermia over these five days. They just really hunkered down and sheltered themselves and did what they could. But they knew that they couldn't stay here forever and that they needed. to get in contact with their brothers. They're like, they didn't show up that night, but something

must have happened. We need to call them. But they were really afraid to go into town and use a phone because then someone might see them. And even though a lot of the townspeople weren't in the good graces of their father by any means, it didn't mean that he wasn't going to find out. And also, from their point of view, too, a lot of the townspeople didn't like their family. So it just felt really risky to go into town to use a phone. However, they did have, if you remember from the first episode they had this this shelter that was in town that they used to use but then they trashed it and they told them like they couldn't be there with all their stuff well they still owned it and it still existed and there was a phone inside of it god that feels dangerous

yes because I feel like that's one of the first places that the dad would look well that was their thought too and they were really nervous about it which was why they were waiting so long but eventually they decide we have to we have to call them we need we need to get in contact with our brothers and get out of here we can't live under this spruce tree so on that fifth night they went to this shack as quietly as they could and fearful that their father may be hiding out nearby and afraid that he might hear them they actually took their shoes off and walked just in socks on the snow to make as little noise as possible as they creeped up slowly jerusalem looked off into the distance and hidden under a tree was Papa Pilgrim Snowmobile.

Oh, my God. He was in the shack. No, he was in it. Yep. But they're not in it yet. They're not in it yet. Oh, my God. Okay.

I know. When I was reading this, I'm like, oh, my God. All this. So they're terrified, but they, as quietly as they can and as quickly as they can, they back up and they run back to their hiding spot under this tree. And then they realized that they were really out of options. They're starting to get dehydrated. They have very little food. They really need to get out of their situation. It's becoming desperate. And they know of one of this guy in town who has a cabin that is pretty close to where they're staying. And they decided that that following

morning they were going to go to his cabin and ask to use his phone. As soon as the sun rose, they made their way of this cabin as fast as they could, especially knowing that Papa Pilgrim was in town and around, they just had to get here and get in and get out kind of thing. When they arrived at the cabin, no one was home. But luckily for them, the door was unlocked. They rushed in and called their brothers who were so happy to hear that they had escaped and that they were okay. They had explained that they tried to come for them the day that they left, but there had been some miscommunication in the meeting spot, and they never saw them, and they had been worried about them ever since. Over the phone call, they did set a time for them to come meet, and it would be at 10 p.m. that night along the McCarthy Road, and they would come pick them up in a truck. So the plan was for the rest of the day is they would hang out under the spruce tree until 10 p.m. for their brothers to get there and pick them up. 10 p.m. rolled around, and their brothers finally found them, and they arrived. It was this joyous reunion with lots of hugging and excitement to finally be reunited together. I mean, it's been almost two months at this point.

that they hadn't seen each other. Their brothers brought them to a fishing cabin north of Chitna, which they knew their father couldn't find them at, and it was this remote cabin. No one had been there. And the two girls stayed out there for over a week. And their brothers came every few days to check on them and bring them supplies. And this was really exciting at first because they were free. They're in, they have shelter, they have food, everything's good. But they knew that they couldn't hide out in the woods forever. And they needed a real concrete place to go. Now, the only family that they knew and the only family that they trusted were the Buckingham's, who they had stayed with over Christmas and that visit had ended really badly that we talked about in part one where Jim Buckingham had actually confronted Papa Pilgrim about his relationship with Alicia Ba. And the interaction had ended badly and he had stormed back to the homestead. But at this point, they're like, this is the only family that we have met that seems really normal. They were so well. welcoming and loving towards us, they feel like they are someone that we can call.

And they already have somewhat of an idea of the inappropriate nature of that dynamic, at least, at the very least, they have some sort of inclination about that. Yes, exactly. So they know that things are wrong with this family. They know stuff's going on. And they had felt for Alicia, but too. And she knew that, but she was nervous to call them. but eventually they decided that they should.

And when they did, the Buckingham's were ecstatic to hear from them. They assured them that they were welcome to come stay with them, that they were happy to hear that they had escaped Papua Pilgrim, and they were especially glad to hear that Alicia was finally safe. They told her that they were really proud of her for leaving, and they also assured her that what her father had done to her was not her fault. After several more days in that cabin, they eventually did leave the cabin to move in. with the Buckingham's, but before they went there, they made a stop along the way. Country Rose had called the boys very upset a few days prior.

And she had said that she had found Papa Pilgrim bathing with Hosanna. And she was very worried that he was going to start sexually abusing her in the same way that he had to Alicia Bud now that she was gone. That is just so insane. It's just like the immediate turnover. It's been five days. Yeah. It's like, what is wrong with you? Why are you?

Yeah. He's like, this is another one of your daughter. Like, that aside, you know, it's another one of your daughters. It's just the immediate, like, well, I need to abuse everyone and everyone. Everyone. Everyone. No regard or no thought. Like, it's just, it's so sick.

Wild and sick. Yeah, I know. Yeah. So the sons, Joshua and Joseph are horrified at this news. And they know that they need to immediately go intervene with this. So when they pick up Aliciaba and Jerusalem, they make a stop with them and they're not afraid of their father anymore. So they immediately go to the homestead. And Aliciaba and Jerusalem wait behind because they're not going to go back into that situation. But the sons in their visit, they confronted him about it and they said, we're taking Hosanna.

And he really couldn't argue at that point. I mean, these are two young adult sons. They're not afraid to throw down with him at this point. Like he can't just beat on them. And he was really in a tough spot there in regards to trying to assert his authority or whatever. So he couldn't argue with that. But before they left, they also confronted him about the memory card. And they said that they weren't leaving without it. And of course, at first he denied having it, said it didn't exist. He didn't know what they were talking about.

So on. So forth, whatever. And they're insistent. And they're like, we're not leaving until you give this to us. So he does. Eventually, he hands it over. but only after breaking it into. Of course.

Yeah. It's incriminating. Yeah. But it just makes me so. And it's great that they did that. And for, I'm losing track of the names, Hosanna was it? But doesn't he now have other, like, I just worry for the wife and then like the other children. Yeah.

Yeah. There's so many of them. There's so many other people involved here that he could just target next, just kind of move along, you know. And the repurchase. just for the family that's left behind after they leave too is a concern. But it's kind of at this point, it feels like we're going to save who we can when we can. Right. Yeah. Which is admirable and worthy. It's just there's also it's like yes, but then what? It's scary. Everything is so scary. And it's like, where does it end? So they successfully get Hosanna out. They get the broken memory card. And at this point, it had been three weeks since Alicia Button. Jerusalem had escaped and now they were heading to the Buckingham's home with Hosanna as well. And when they got there, they were welcomed by the Buckingham's. They had actually created all

new accommodations with them for them. They had set up beds and decorations and they had food and drinks and they had this big welcoming for them to arrive at their home. The Buckingham's allowed them to settle in. They created a safe environment and home for them to be at. And while Alishaba was an adult and legally allowed to leave her her the homestead hosanna and jerusalem were minors and technically papa pilgrim could have called the authorities when they left oh i wish you would i wish yeah it's like i dare you please i'm begging you to do that of course he didn't because yeah of everything that's going down what is he going to say it was clearly far too risky for him to do that so they were able to continue living their life with the buckingham's without any interference from

Papa Pilgrim at all. And the Buckingham's brought them to church. Alicia Shiba started working. Their life was really becoming this like normal, this normal experience that you're supposed to have. Eventually during her stay, Aliciava confided in the Buckingham's and she told the mother everything that she went through. What her father had been doing to her, everything that she experienced. And she just really just let out everything that she had went through. Speaking with them in a safe place was the beginning of healing for her, but being away from Papa Pilgrim wasn't enough because she was still horribly worried for the rest of her family. After a few months of being away, word got back to them about an incident with Papa Pilgrim and his son Israel. They had gotten into a confrontation in the town of McCarthy, and their father had actually beat him in public.

Israel managed to get a phone, and he called the state troopers on his father the first time anyone had done. called the police on him in the family. And once the police were involved, he told them about all the abuse that he had been experiencing, but also mentioned the sexual abuse that had been happening to Alicia Ba. And now the police were looking to speak to her as well about her own experience. And after this incident and speaking with the Buckingham's and opening up about everything she had gone through, Aliciama decided that it was finally time to tell her story to police. And this was not an easy decision because remember she has spent her entire life being taught not to trust the police she's been taught to run from them any authoritative figure really and now she was for the

first time ever she was reaching out to them to help her and to help her family first she told the police what had happened then she sat in front of a jury and she detailed her entire story again her testimony was compelling and it was completely heartbreaking and by the time she was done with it. She looked up to see all of the members of the jury crying along with her. I would like to ask if, do you know if she had to testify in front of her father? Yes. And I am going to get into that, too. She does testify in front of her father. Because that is just so admirable. And I think that every time I see somebody giving any sort of testimony in front of an abuser or somebody who wronged them or a loved one. It's just the balls that it takes to do that. And I know a lot of times there is no choice.

Like, there is no other. You have to do that. Like, if you're choosing to testify, that person's going to be in front of you. It's just the way that the system set up. Yeah. But it's just to your father, too. To your father is another added layer of that. And I, I mean, I'm not sure if I've talked about this or not with on the podcast, but very briefly, like, I've had to test fry in front of someone I had a restraining order on a stalker of mine. And it was really, really difficult. And I didn't even know the fucking guy. Like, I didn't even know him. Yeah. And I felt such a anxiety panic. And honestly, a little bit of, and I don't know what the therapy can probably get into this a little more. But like the sense of like almost guilt,

I want to say, of like, I feel. kind of bad. Yeah. Isn't that is that bizarre, you know? And to think of the emotions that she was going through, having this be her dad. Yeah. And someone that she for the longest time, despite the abuse and despite all of the messed up things that he put her and her other family members through. Like having to do that is just, like, it gains, it garners so much respect. And I think that that's something that a lot of people don't really understand until they have to do it in some way or some form. Definitely. It's such a hard thing. I have never had to do it, but I can just imagine how difficult it would be to stand in front of all of these strangers that you don't know. To open up about something that's deeply personal to your own life and then also to face the person who did it to you.

And then to go back to what you said about feeling guilty, I don't think that that's strange at all because I think inherently we don't want to get other people in trouble. We don't want to harm other people. Yeah. And then I also think as women were told a lot throughout our life that we're overreacting, that it's not that serious, that you're making a big deal of it. And I think it's so easy to get into your head and be like, am I blowing this out of proportion? Like is it this is this really that necessary? do I really need to be doing this? And it's so easy to second guess your own feelings because of, I really think, stemming from how women are talked to and spoken to throughout our whole lives, that it's easy to be like, wait. And I felt all of those things. And to be 100% honest, I probably would have given into that line of thinking, for sure, if it wasn't for my stepdad who was advocating for that.

He's like, you need to do this. Like I was an adult at the time. I could have said no. I could have. Yeah. I, it's not like I was forced to do it. But at his urging of him being like, this is serious. And it could get a lot worse.

And you never know like what could happen. Like you need to, you need to pursue this and get up there. Yeah. Like, let's do this. And I was so, I just remember I had a Fitbit on at the time. Like it was the day the age of the Fitbit. And I looked at it and my heart rate was like, through the roof.

Like, are you exercising right now? No. But I'm out of breath. I'm so scared. But yeah, so I can totally understand. And I just think of all of the people who kind of fall into that and back off. Yeah. And whether it escalates or not, just the amount of people who are just like, I don't want to like, nothing has happened yet.

Like in my circumstance, of course, with Alicia Buzz. But the most has happened. But yeah, just like that reluctance, it's just so real. Well, I think you make such a good point in showcasing how impactful it can be to have support. Like having support changes everything. Because when you're alone, it's not that people with no support can't do it and haven't. But when you have support, that can really change the narrative completely. when you have someone behind you being like, no, you are right, you have the right to feel this way,

you don't deserve this. It just, it changes things so much. And I think with Alicia Bess case, too, where I'm going to get into her testifying, she has the Buckingham's that are fully supporting her, telling her that what her father did was wrong. She has her siblings that are coming up and being like, hey, what he did was so wrong. What he did to all of us is so wrong. And then even her mother, who has been severely abused by her father and has largely been forced to go along with a lot of what he was doing to her. It's like, no, you are right. You need to do this. And even with testifying and having all this, to have that support can be the change in all of it. Yeah, it can make her break a lot of things. Yeah, for sure. On September 22nd, 2005, the grand jury did indict Robert Hale

on 30 felony charges, including first-degree sexual assault and eight counts of incest. And I do want to just point out because I don't mention it super often, but Alicia Ba started being sexually abused when she was 18. So technically, she was never a minor. So there was no charges of child sexual abuse or anything. But I feel like that's easy to forget about because she feels like a child, I think, a lot of times. Just by the way that she was raised and what was happening and she was severely abused, just not sexually, before she turned 18. The following day after he was indicted, the Alaska state troopers took a helicopter into McCarthy to arrest him, but Papa Pilgrim had fled.

Hmm. Of course she is. It wasn't until almost three weeks later on October 5th that he was finally apprehended hiding out a few miles northeast of Anchorage in a blue camper van. He was arrested without incident and he actually looked severely unwell. Remember, he has diabetes. And now Alicia Bo was the one who knew all his dosings and how to take care of him. And who knows, like, how he was getting by at this point. But he looked very unwell, very tired.

And there was no incident. He wasn't armed. But he was taken into custody and he was held on $50,000 in bail, which he didn't have. And the family had no intention of putting up for him. Yeah. His arrest made front page news as people had been following the Pilgrim story for years now. a lot of it was romanticized light and with the National Park Service buttons and everything. Now he was on the front page paper for what had come out.

And a lot of people were pretty shocked because people had loved this family. But then there were other people who really knew him. And they were relieved. They were horrified to see what he was charged with. But it was kind of like, finally, someone's got this guy. The rest of the family, including country rows, were given accommodations in a cabin not far from the Buckingham. and they were well supported in their transition from the homestead. The entire family settled into their new life while they awaited Papa Pilgrim's trial.

The trial didn't start for a while. It started on November 26, 2007, and the entire family decided to speak out against him. They came out as witnesses, they gave victim impact statements, and they gave heartbreaking testimony. Lamb, at just nine years old, testified against her father, saying, quote, sometimes I have bad nightmares at night. One of my saddest memories is when you beat up baby Jonathan. You kept beating him until I thought he would die. Mama tried to stop you, but you kept beating him with a rod.

Abraham spoke up in court and read a letter that said, quote, the main thing I remember is when I saw you beat up Alicia. I saw her on the bed lying down and then she sat up. I saw you punch her in the chest. I went away and cried. Jerusalem spoke from memory, recalling a time to the court that he had tied her up to her brother. and made them sleep on the floor for a week without food.

When it was Alicia Bus' turn to give her statement, they allotted her 30 minutes. She explained that she was just a young girl who would do anything for her father that she loved. Then she detailed the sexual and physical abuse that he did to her. She spoke about how he had forced her to beat her siblings for him, how he made her fear for her own life, the manipulation she experienced of how he said that God approved of the abuse her father was doing to her. She spoke of how he would brag about the bruises and beatings that he would give her. She went into details of specific times that he would beat her. And lastly, she finished with how and why she finally escaped.

When it was her father's time to take the stand, he gave excuses of his life growing up. He spoke of his ex-wife who died by suicide and how awful it had been for him. Okay, but can we, are we air-quoting, unquote. Air quotes. Remember, he's suspected of murdering her. Yes, okay. He denied beating his children and said that there was never any sexual abuse. He broke down crying, saying, quote, I declare here in front of my father in heaven this day that I never lusted after my little girls.

Oh, my God. That is so icky. Like, I feel like I need to like shower. Yes. Can we pause? I can go do that. He even, the audacity of this man, because he even said to the court under oath, that Alicia Bo was lying about everything and said that she had committed perjury and should

apologize to God. Okay. I, all right. He's not fooling anyone. No. No. And he's just making himself look like even worse if that was possible. Yes. And he also goes into like, I don't go, I didn't want to go like fully into his speech because he actually spoke to the court for several hours. Isn't that what they do? Like, you know how it's like the what is it? What is it? something with all the people like Ted Bundy represented himself and it's like these like sociopaths can just like narcissistic want to be heard like they just want people to hear what they have to say yeah shut up so he actually speaks to the court for several hours it took so long that they had to take an intermission between it why was he allowed to speak for so long and alicia bar could have 30 minutes

I don't know I think maybe it had to do it because all 15 of them were coming up Oh, okay. To talk. So I don't know if that's like why. They allotted him time to. Yeah. Or if the defense had like argued for him to have more time because of the seriousness of what he was being charged with. I'm not really sure.

I didn't get into like the nitty gritties of everything. But he goes on for several hours. He even gets into like conspiracy theories. He talks about his dad who was an FBI agent. He goes into like the John F. Kennedy murder. Because that has a lot to do with this. Yeah. Just like and people are saying.

are like, why is this guy talking about? But it also goes back to a lot of their own testimony. The children were saying how he kept them up all night preaching the Bible and that he would speak for hours and hours and wouldn't let them go to bed, wouldn't teach them, like, whatever. So he was kind of proving who he was in the courtroom, unbeknownst to him, he thought he was preaching and probably thought he was doing a good job. Yeah. But to everyone else, they were like, yeah, this is exactly who you are. We heard all the testimony.

We believe everyone else. And when all was said and done, the judge sentenced Robert Hale to 14 years in prison for the sexual abuse of Alicia Ba. Which I think seems like a very short amount of time for sentencing for everything he did. Yeah, seems light on the light side. Yes. Definitely on the light side. However, only seven months later in May of 2008, news from the prison came that Robert Hale had died of diabetes-related complications. His dying wish was to be buried next to his ex-wife, Kathleen, the year. young woman who many suspected he had murdered what in the world yeah it's like what is wrong with you what is

wrong with you and oh oh also the one the ex-wife that he might have murdered yes whose father will not speak to him so what do you mean your wishes to be buried next to her what are you talking about like in what world is that going to happen no no and the family was like no we're not honoring those wishes at all that way that the that the ex-wife's or his no his own family right okay they are the ones who get say over it not like this family from 20 years ago that right 30 years ago you know so that excommunicated him already anyways yeah so he's not getting buried there and the family decided that they would absolutely not honor those wishes and instead he was buried in the aurora cemetery in wasila alaska and the family did have a burial service for him where they all came

and they all came and said something terrible about him over his grave. Okay. All right. They ended it by being happy to bury years of abuse and evil and move on with their own lives. They said that they were comforted by the fact that Papa Pilgrim would never hurt them or anyone else again. And in the book, Alicia did not say this in her book, but the other one, Pilgrim's Wilderness by Tom Kizia, he was actually at the service too. and he said that he that basically they damned him all to hell. Okay.

Well, so good on them. Yeah. Good on them. And that was his burial ceremony. After that, they moved on with their lives. It was buried and moved on. And I didn't mention this previously, but Alicia Ba had actually found a man that she married between the time that she escaped in the trial.

She met a man who was Christian. and he was very sweet. He was loving towards her. And he wanted to wait for a physical relationship until after they were married, which was something that was important to Alicia Ba and made her trust him more. Despite everything that her father had put her through, she always remained strong in her faith with God. She went on to have two beautiful children of her own with her husband. And she has gone on to live in Alaska to this day. And I had trouble finding the rest of her family. It seems like they've wanted to keep. pretty private and they don't have a book or anything. So I'm not sure what they're doing now, but hopefully living the best lives they can with everything that they've endured. And hopefully

free from abuse and are moving past everything that has happened to them. Wow. That is, is that it? Yes. Before I say, okay. Yes. Gosh, what a. I mean, the, best outcome, I think, that could have been, like, he was brought to justice. He died. People recognize the awful things that he had done and what he had been doing to them. And he was, he was caught. And finally someone, I mean, for years, he was preaching his own shit that, basically, that he could do no wrong. And everyone else was these victims that he had to, or that everyone else were these sinners that he had to correct to go, yeah, to go to go to heaven. And finally he was the person who was being punished.

Yeah. It's just you got to wonder if there was ever a moment. It seems like he never publicly or privately to anybody else maybe confided or admitted that maybe he had been in the wrong at any point. Like it just seems like he took that belief to the grave. Like whatever warped reality he was living in, he really truly just stuck with till the end and truly didn't see any sort of fault or error in his ways. And it's just kind of like, it's so scary that there are people out there that truly

think in that way. Like, it's like they're the end all be all. And it's everybody else that has an issue. Has a problem. Yeah. And not them. Yeah. And you're absolutely right. He did go to the grave without ever apologizing. His sons actually had visit him in prison and asked him to repent and apologize because they were all very religious still after all of this had happened. I believe the entire family always stayed that way and they went and they said, you know, like, you should ask God for forgiveness for everything that you did, like face up to what you've done. And he was adamant and he refused to say that he ever did anything wrong. Well, hopefully he faced his judgment in one way or another, whether that, you know, that it happened a little bit here in this physical

world, but hopefully wherever he's at next doled him out what he deserved. And I'll end it at that. Yeah, that's a very eloquent way to say, I hope he's burning at hell. I was trying to not say that, but, you know, and I don't know if I really believe. leave in that, but he sure did. He sure did. So, hope he found out. Fuck around and find out. Yeah, that's right. Okay. Well, thanks, question mark

for this horrible story. But I do think, I do think it's an important one for, there are a lot of people who are living through abuse. And there are a lot of people who are in situations, maybe not to the extreme that Alicia is in, or wasn't, or maybe they are, but to see a story of a woman, like, overcoming so much and escaping so much and moving on with their life, I think is an important narrative to have. And just to repeat myself from earlier, check out her book. She goes really into detail of everything in her escape, what she went through. And it really is, it's a very, very interesting read. And I thought it was a great, I really enjoyed the

book. It's called, once again, it's called Out of the Wilderness, escaping my father's prison and my journey to forgiveness. All right. Well, thank you for sharing. And next week, hopefully we're, oh, it's my week. What are we doing? What are we doing? I don't know. Something different. Bring us up a little bit. Okay. All right. I'll try. We'll see what's going on the next week. But I can promise it will not be as heavy as this one. So there's that. All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And we hope we see you next week. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

But watch you're back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at Stories at NPAD Podcast.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast. Join our outsiders-only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad-free,

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