National Park After Dark - Murder, Mystery and Medicine: Holyrood Royal Park

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

In 1836 a discovery of 17 miniature coffins in Holyrood Royal Park in Scotland sparked a heated debate. Who created them, and what did the represent? Theories abound, but one of the most widely accepted theories out there is a wild one- that they represent the victims of the famed serial killers William Burke and William Hare. For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Apostrophe: Code NPAD to receive your dermatologist-crafted treatment plan for only $5Feals: Code NPAD for 50% off your first order with free shipping HelloFresh: Code NPAD for up to 16 free meals and 3 free gifts BetterHelp: Code NPAD for 10% off your first month of online therapy For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Listen to Monday.com. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform. So flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes, go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally, breathe. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.

Ask yourself, what would you do for a million dollars? Everyone's answer is different and everyone has their limits. But if modern television has shown us anything, it's that sometimes people will do a lot. From eating sheep eyeballs and spiders on fear factor, running around the world on the amazing race, starving themselves on Survivor, or living in isolation on alone,

all of these things show us just how desperate we can be to strike it rich. And while most of us draw the line at consuming live tarantulas, there are those who aren't afraid to go deeper and much darker. Contract killing or murder for hire is nothing new. Humans have enlisted other humans to kill for centuries, driven by a vendetta, ties to organized crime, or even an unhappy marriage. The people to carry out the act are known as the enforcers, and money is their motive. In 1828, this motive reared its ugly head in Scotland,

where three men came to a mutual, unspoken understanding. killing for cash. Known to history as the Westport murders, 16 people lost their lives at their hands. But unlike a disgruntled spouse or an individual looking for an insurance payout, William Burke and William Hare were hired to kill for science. They were enlisted to murder for the sake of medicine. Up the clothes and down the stair, butt and Ben we burke and hair. burks the butcher, hares the thief, knocks the boy that buys the beef. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Can I just say how stoked I am that we're going to Europe finally?

I know, I know. It's been long awaited and it's a tiny, teeny little bit of a stretch for today, to say the least. This isn't going to be in a national park. It's in a royal park. And if you tuned into the man eater episode a few weeks ago, we discussed Royal Parks and we will again today. It's not part of the national park system, but it's our one year anniversary, and we're treating ourselves to this story today. You can do whatever you want. We've been doing this for one year. You deserve this. It's our birthday, and we can do whatever we want, and no one can say anything because by the time this comes out, it's already done.

And it's outside. It's in a park. It counts. It counts for sure. Before we get into it, we do have a couple of things. First, like we just said, it's our one-year anniversary. It's insane. It's really flown by.

It really has. Like when I think about the very first episode that we did in Shannon Doa and Acadia, it feels so long ago, but it also feels like it was like two weeks ago at the same time. If that makes any sense. Yeah, for sure, it does. And because it's our one-year interiors. We have a little bit of an announcement. It's small, but we've been working hard on it.

We have totally revamped our website, and we have a newsletter that's going to be coming out every month. And in it, we have made it. So there is fun stuff and updates about the podcast. There's going to be stuff in the headlines about the parks and different articles on what's going on in the national park system and a lot of cool things every month that we are really excited to share with everybody. My favorite aspect that we added is we're going to add a pet of the month that has been up for adoption for a long time that needs a home.

So they might be in your area or if you're interested, keep an eye out on that. And on our website, we'll have the little subscribe to our newsletter option. Yeah. So when you're going to check out the new revamped website and merch store and things like that, there will be a little box or a pop up that will have a space for your email. And if you want to receive the newsletter, it'll be once a month. that's where you can sign up. And we won't blow up your inbox with like a bunch of other weird stuff. Like it's it's for the newsletter.

Yeah, it's for the newsletter. Partially because I personally hate when that happens to me. And also I would have no idea how to do that. I barely know how it. So we don't have time to write a ton of emails to you guys have like spam. I have one other thing that I would like to share with everybody. And more so with you just because we have been doing this for a year and we get email. all the time from listeners that are so special, each and every one of them.

They're all taken with love, but there is one that really stood out. It was from a little while ago, I think a couple months ago, but I saved it. Okay. I love that. So I'm going to read it just because it kind of like encapsulates why we started the podcast and I think you're really going to love it. It says, hi, new listener here and I just wanted to let y'all know how much I appreciate your podcast. I just returned from a 20-day camping adventure with my two teenage sons, a friend,

and her teen son. We are homeschooling families that have traveled and camped many times over the years to enrich our learning. We like to say the world is our classroom, and it truly is. We live in Texas and have visited many national parks in our state, other states, and in Canada with several homeschool families. Some of our trips have been the Utah Mighty Five, a month-long East Coast trip to study U.S. history with many parks and monument stops, and a trip to Carlsbad, Chaco, Mesa Verde, and Taos to explore some UNESCO sites. On this most recent adventure, we visited the Great Sand Dunes, Yellowstone, Banff, Yoho, Kootenay, Mount Rainier, Olympic, Glacier, and the Grand Teton's. Between parks, we spent a lot of time driving and listening to podcasts.

We listened to all of yours during this trip, and it was not only our favorite, but it also had a huge impact on our trip and inspired the kids. Because of you, we stopped at the UFO watchtower outside of Great Sand Dunes. The woman working there, Sandy, I think, asked what brought us there, and we told her about your podcast and she was so excited to tell us that Judy had just purchased Skippy and that she had recently gotten in touch with you to tell you about it. Unfortunately, we were a week too early to actually see Skippy, but that just means we need to plan another trip. The kids were so impressed with your connection to what we had heard from you and everything she told us on our visit, it's definitely a great memory made. While in Banff, my boys asked to go check out the Fairmont to see

the haunted hotel. We did a self-guided tour. It's truly beautiful and worth visiting even without the haunting excitement. The boys searched out the haunted locations and found the information at the bottom of the steps about the unfortunate bride. We tried to sneak down the hallway to the missing room, but it was blocked off. They were thrilled to see all the things you talked about in the story in person. While in Glacier, we camped at the National Forest, but was pretty isolated, and all of us were a bit spooked after listening to Night of the Grizzlies. But thanks for that too. The teens were much better at keeping our camp clean, not wandering off the trails, and locking away food. They even looked on the park map to find the story location, and to make sure we were nowhere near it. A little healthy fear

goes a long way. The boys were so impressed by the Jenny Lake Ranger's story in the Grand Teton's that we stopped by the ranger house to see if we could talk to them. They had just left for the season, but another park ranger was kind enough to talk to us about them a bit. Side note on that episode. My son had one big goal on this trip, to see a moose. In that episode, when you described the park, one of you said, seeing a moose in the teetons is pretty much a guarantee, and he held you to it. It was the last stretch of our trip, and we hadn't seen a moose yet. He was all ready to write you a disappointed message because you promised him we'd see a moose. Then, with just half a day left, we saw not just one moose, but a mom and her baby.

It was an amazing moment. Your podcast was incredibly interesting, educational in so many ways, and led to some great campfire discussions. Thank you both so much for all of the kids. the inspiration, sincerely Jennifer, Max, and Jack Jones, and Jennifer and Finno Newberry. Isn't that the nicest thing? That's so sweet. Yeah, that's really, really sweet. I love the aspect of that they were also scared of Night of the Grizzlies, too. And that it led to better behaviors. And I'm really happy that he saw a moose because I was feeling real guilty at the beginning of that. Like, what do you mean? Yeah, because that was you that was you that.

It was me that promise. And we did get other messages that were like, you promise. I know. I just really, really enjoyed it just because people are taking things away from the episodes and getting to experience them kind of like in real time in their own way. That's all we could ever want from doing this is to help adventures like that. So that's really, really cool. Thank you so much for writing into us. We absolutely love to hear stories like that. I know that was being shared a little late. A delayed thank you, but a big one nonetheless. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories,

and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Now we're going to Scotland for the first time. I know you've been to Europe. Have you been to Scotland? I have not been to Scotland. Okay. It's on my list, though. Cassie. You asked. I'm sorry, but what else was I going to say to that? No, I haven't been there. Yes, it's on my list. It's just safe to assume. That everywhere is on that list. Well, just in case anyone forgot. I don't think they did. But, um, okay, so today we're venturing to Scotland, to Hollywood Royal Park. Obviously, here in the United States, we don't have royal parks. And I

really didn't know what one was until I was researching the Chompawat Tiger, the Man-Eater episode that we did a couple weeks ago. And there is a difference between Royal Parks and national parks. Scotland has actually two national parks. And so, several royal parks. And if you don't know what a royal park is, they are lands that were used for recreational purposes in the past, mostly for hunting purposes, exclusively for royal families, and they're close friends. But over time, these parks have opened up for public use and are now protected areas. Okay, that makes sense. Hollyford Park is the oldest park that we have ventured to yet in our podcast history.

It was created in 1541. Wow. Yeah. But it was used as a royal hunting estate since the early 12th century. A lot of history there, then I imagine. Tons of history. At 650 acres, it's the largest green space in Edinburgh, which is the capital of Scotland. A large patch of green in a sprawling city, Holyrood has locks, cliffs, ridges, and hills,

and is located just a mile east of the Edinburgh Castle, which is on the edge of Old Town Edinburgh. And this location means it's very easily accessible and provides sweeping views of the city. The park is home to man-made and geological points of interest. Remnants of St. Anthony's Chapel are found within this park, and that chapel is over 600 years old. Mushet Karen can also be found here, and this small pile of rock commemorates the area where a surgeon, Nicol Muscat, murdered his wife in the year 1720.

Natural formations that draw visitors to the park are most notably the Salisbury Crags and Arthur's Seat. The crags are 151 feet, which are 46 meters, of basalt cliffs, which are very popular for sport climbing, and Arthur's seat is the main piece. peak in a group of grassy hills within the park. At over 800 feet, climbing to the top of this ancient volcano will give panorama views of the city. Human history on Arthur's seat goes back thousands of years. Some climbed its hills to wash their face in the fresh dew, hoping for eternal youth. Others found refuge from creditors and found peace living on its grounds. Celtic legends tell of a hungry dragon stalking its skies, and it has even influenced literary works, making appearances in novels such as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

But when two boys hunting for rabbits in 1836 uncovered 17 miniature coffins, filled with 17 miniature bodies, Arthur's seat was launched into the center of a century's old mystery that to this day has never officially been solved. coffins right up your alley miniature coffins I need to as you hold your coffin ring yeah mini little coffins so in June of 1836 several boys were out hunting when they came across a small cave-like outcropping covered with some slabs of stone curious the boys removed the stones to find these 17 small carved coffins each containing a small intricately carved wooden human figure figurine. The coffins were small, small enough to fit in your open hand, and clearly carved by someone with skill. Each of the figurines were clothed inside the coffins, and the coffins themselves were stacked neatly in rows. The first two consisted of eight coffins each, and then there was a singular coffin at the very top. The boys immediately started handling them and playing with them,

in part destroying most of them. That sucks. It sucks, but there are also kids. kids that they're kids i mean they don't i'm not like blaming them or anything i'm just like god that sucks i know in retrospect it's like come on when the media caught wind of this discovery theories cropped up everywhere everyone had an opinion on what these coffins represented where they came from and what they were well they're super creepy they are creepy find those in the middle of like that's super creepy well first the most widely spread theory was that they must have a connection with witchcraft or the occult. So Arthur's seat was linked with witchcraft. It was a meeting place for those who practiced the religion.

And the city itself had a deep connection with the whole witchcraft panic itself. So here in the United States, when we think of witchcraft and witchcraft trials, we think of Salem, Massachusetts. In that trial, 19 individuals were executed for witchcraft. But in Scotland, that country executed an estimated 1,500 people for witchcraft, and Edinburgh was responsible for at least 300 of those executions. Wow. So Arthur's seat was like a known meeting place? I didn't go super into it, but it essentially seemed like people who practice religion outside. of the traditional Catholic Church or Christianity would meet there.

And that's kind of why that was like the first thing. Kind of like when you think of witchcraft, and this is probably not even 100% correct because I'm sure there's a lot of differentiating factors, but you think of like voodoo dolls and little talismans that people create and use as representatives for various things. So they see. Well, that's kind of what. what your description of these little coffin people are. They sound like voodoo dolls a little bit.

And that's what some of these people immediately their minds went to. Others presumed that they were the result of a tradition. In Germany, it was customary for families to create figurines and place them in small coffins in memory of loved ones who had died abroad and elsewhere away from the family and they were unable to give them a traditional burial. And yet another suggestion was that they were made at the request of sailors who asked them to have them made if they were ever to die at sea. But studies of the coffins and figurines show no signs of pinholes or damage as had been seen in other objects found locally tied to magic practices.

So no signs of damage or harm like inflicted on any of these dolls after the kids destroyed them. Yeah, the ones that remained. The ones that remained were examined, and there was no, they were actually x-rayed. The museum went crazy with them to examine them. And they actually found quite the opposite. This group of coffins and figurines was actually very well looked after and carefully set aside. And there was obviously a lot of love and care that was put into them. Also, there had been no known surrogate burial traditions in the area at that time similar to those in Germany.

so that was kind of off the table. And the sailor request seemed a little far-fetched because no other coffins had been found in Scotland at that time. So even though all of these things are happening in other places, they were like, well, it just doesn't make sense in this particular circumstance. Curators at the National Museum of Scotland went to town on examining the coffins and their figurines. Everything from the nails used in the coffin,

cloth for the clothing, the thread used to sew the clothing, and the pins used to secure the lids. They were all thoroughly examined by many people over many years. Through thorough investigation, they discovered the coffins were made sometime in the 1830s, meaning that they laid undiscovered for a maximum of about six years after being initially placed in the cave. They were most likely made by a cobbler, a shoemaker, and the figurines were repurposed old toy soldiers.

And I'll link a short YouTube video, in the episode description. It's only about 10 minutes long, but there's one of the curators of the museum. She has the coffins laid out and she goes through how they examined them and how they figured out all of these things about them to pin down specifics like this.

It's actually really, really cool. Okay. The coffins on the bottom row were more decomposed than the ones on the second row. And then the single coffin on top was relatively untouched by wear and tear and decomposition, which led a lot of theorists to believe that they were placed their one by one over several years, rather than just like laid to rest all at once.

So some of them were a lot older than others. That's what some people thought. But curators have a different take on that. They believe that because they were all so uniformly made, they were all made in place there all at one time, or at the very least placed very close together over a short period of time, and they explained the wear and tear and decomposition of some of the coffins over others because the ones that were on the cave floor would be expected to have more damage and wear and tear on them

because they were exposed to direct moisture. Okay. So, of course, the ones that were on top of them that weren't in direct contact with any, like, moisture or the elements as much as the ones on the bottom. You know what I'm saying? Because the way they're layered. Yeah, they would have been preserved a little bit better. Right. So the coffins were scrutinized and theorized over for years. What the figures were made of, how they were constructed, and when was largely agreed upon, but the most important questions remained unanswered. Who made them? And why? In 1995, former curator of the National Museum of Scotland and his associate carefully reviewed all the evidence and poured over historical records, ultimately presenting the most recent, plausible,

and widely accepted theory to date. These figurines represented the victims of Edinburgh's most famed serial killers. What? I did not, I don't know why, but I did not see this going into a serial killer direction. Oh, yes, it does. And I was shocked when this came up because I know this story that I'm about to tell, but I had no idea about the link to the coffin. I wonder if I'll recognize the story or not.

So they think that all of the coffins are representations of the people that they murdered. Yes. 17 of them. Yes. And you'll see there's technically 16 victims, but 17 bodies. And you'll understand why when I tell you the complete story. Okay. Now I'm very, very intrigued.

Before I'm like, witchcraft, uh, maybe, and like voodoo and burial practices. is okay, but a serial killer? Of course, like I said, this has not been confirmed. No one knows for sure if this is really what they represent, but based on the historic record and the timeframe, and the story I'm about to tell a lot of, I don't know what they're called museum professionals. A lot of people in that realm believe that this is the most plausible explanation

for what they are and why they were there. Can I ask if you think that this? is the most plausible? I want to say yes, but I also am not fully informed on all of the other options and theories. Like there are some that are like, yeah, maybe, but it doesn't really fit. But there are some that it could potentially be another reason, but deep down, I think that this does make the most sense. Okay. Okay, tell me more. Okay. William Burke was born in the late 1700s in Ireland to a farming family. By his mid-20s, he had already joined and left the army, along with his wife and two children, to start a new life in Scotland, following an argument with his in-laws.

He found work for several years in construction on a canal, but when the construction job ended, he found himself scraping by with odd jobs. He met a woman named Helen McDougal, and in 1827, they moved to Edinburgh to find new opportunities. While living in Edinburgh, They became friends with another couple, William Hare and Margaret Laird. Margaret was the widow of the previous landlord of a local lodging house called Tanner's clothes. When her husband passed away, she cozied up with hair and they were running the clothes together. Burke and Hare, so that's how I'm going to refer to them because their first name is both William. Okay.

So Burke and Hare hit it off almost immediately and became fast friends, and they bonded over booze and partying. They had even worked together, but hadn't known it. Turns out they both worked on that canal when it was being constructed, and they ended up liking each other so much that Burke and Helen moved into Tanner's clothes. In late November of 1827, Hare, Burke, Margaret and Helen's lives changed forever. Hare was knocking on doors one day collecting rent from tenants when he approached a room of a tenant named Donald. After several knocks and no answer, Hare let himself in. Donald was dead, and Hare, instead of feeling sadness for the man who had passed away alone from illness, he felt frustration.

Donald had owed him money, and now he needed to dispose of the body so he could utilize the room to rent to someone else. When confiding about the situation with his friend Burke, they came up with an idea. Edinburgh had a need for dead bodies. More specifically, there was a great desire for corpses within the medical community of Edinburgh at the time. time. Medical students were always in need of human bodies to further their study of surgery, dissection, and overall understanding of human anatomy. But coming across volunteers for such purposes was scarce. Donating your body to science was not nearly as popular as it is today, mainly because of varying religious beliefs, which highlighted the importance of intact and undisturbed bodies. For years, the main

legal source of obtaining bodies was from convicted and executed criminals. However, there were several medical schools in Scotland and not enough bodies to go around for everyone in their surgery and dissection labs. Enter the dead body black market. Nicknamed grave robbers, body snatchers, or resurrection men, these men met the increasing demand for bodies. They would sneak into graveyards under the cover of darkness and dig up fresh graves. The body. bodies they stole, they would then sell to local anatomists. This was such a widespread problem that people were terrified that their loved ones would be stolen. So was there no process in making sure that these people actually knew who they were selling? Like wouldn't you think you'd have to

provide some type of documentation? Like, this is my father or this is my cousin or whatever, like someone in some type of relation to you? You would think that that's the right thing to do. You'll see that that's not what happened. It's mainly because there was so much competition at the time for bodies. Because you're an anatomist or a professor, and this is the turn of the century. There are medical advances happening, but if you can't, if you don't have a body to teach or learn from, what are you going to do? So essentially you're saying they just didn't care.

Essentially, yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. And you'll... As long as we don't know about it, it's fine. Like, don't come in and be like, I dug this body up. But if you come in and just give it to us, we're not going to ask questions. There was a lot of that going on. So some people, some people, pretty much everybody was terrified that their loved ones were going to be the next victims of a grave robbery.

So to combat that, there was. was a lot of different tactics put into place throughout the UK. And even in America, because this also happened in America, to help combat that. Starting at like the lowest tier of deterrence, some people would, while they were burying bodies, they would place like large branches and logs and things within the dirt to make it more difficult to dig through to get to somebody's body. They would also place large, heavy stones on top of the grave once it was. completely filled in to make it more difficult to access. These stones were called mort stones,

and they were only placed there temporarily. They were just left there long enough for the body to decompose to a point that Grape Roberts did not want it. And then the stone would be removed. And moved to the next person? Yes, yes. Others went a step further and secured the body into a coffin with an iron necklace. So there was an iron necklace that was bolted to the bottom of the coffin and wrapped around the person's neck and bolted on the other side so that people couldn't slide out and remove people's bodies from a coffin. It's like the extreme shoplifting way to go. Like, you know, you go into the store and you can't shoplift because they've got those little pins down. And if you pull it off, it explodes.

and then there's ink everywhere. It's like, that's what that reminds me of. I didn't know that. Is it really an exploding ink? I mean, they threaten it on some of them. Not all of them, but some of them will say, like, we'll explode bright blue ink if you try to steal this. It's like marked money.

It's like mark money. Yeah. There were also iron cages that became really popular, so it would enclose the entire grave and coffin. so that it was a literal cage you couldn't penetrate. Again, those were made temporary so that it could be moved to the next person. And for those that couldn't afford any of these grave robbing deterrence, they'd simply just stand vigil by their loved one's grave for about four to six weeks

until the body naturally decomposed. Wow. And some graveyards even had armed guards who would stand vigil and shoot trespassers that came in the night. So this is like really serious. Very serious. And it's, it's so fascinating. But yes, if you look up grave robbing, it's like you could go down a rabbit hole for three days like I did. And I really reeled myself in to just like condense it to that much information. So bark and hair were not in this business. They were not in the body snatching business. It was risky, obviously. And pretty gross. But when they looked at poor Donald, they saw a fresh, clean body, free of any decomposition, and they saw dollar signs. The next morning, they visited Surgeon Square. Now located within the University of Edinburgh campus,

this area was once the center of the city's medical community. They had heard of professors who would be interested in what they were offering, and they were directed to the office of Dr. Robert Knox. What they were offering was not exactly legal, and the pair was riddled with nerves. They did not want to be accused of grave robbing and be sent to jail, but what they didn't know was that Dr. Knox was competing with other professors in Edinburgh and across Scotland for the opportunity to obtain bodies for his dissection class.

Another professor in this college had somewhat of a monopoly going on, the executed criminals for class use at the time, which led Knox and several of his medical students and assistants to become grave robbers themselves. They had a history of digging up bodies to use in the classroom. At this point, there were less and less executions going on, which meant less opportunity for cadavers, coupled with a huge influx of medical students who needed them, drove Dr. Knox to this decision. Many of the bodies that he uncovered were in late stages of decomposition and not exactly top shelf choices. So when Burke and Hare approached them with a body and a fresh one at that, he was eager to accept it.

eager, in fact, he offered the men seven pounds and ten shillings for Donald's body, with no questions asked. Burke and Hare were stunned. That amount was nearly twice the amount of rent that was owed by Donald that they were trying to make up for. After getting the green light from Knox, the men went back to Turner's clothes where they had stashed his body. They stuffed it into a bag, and later that night wheeled it back into Knox's office. They didn't keep their plans to themselves and let their partners in on what they had done. And I say partners because they were kind of like in a common law marriage with these women. So I just referred to them as their partners. And the women were thrilled. Over the next weeks, the pair discussed their options for obtaining fresh bodies. They wanted to make a

habit of making this type of money. But it's not every day that you just stumble upon a unclaimed fresh human corpse. So they altered their tactic. At first, they considered snack. At first, they considered snatching homeless young people. But after consideration, they thought that repeatedly bringing fresh young bodies would raise some questions and they didn't want to push the professor. Instead, they decided on another victim profile, elderly or sick people who could have reasonably passed away from natural causes and wouldn't raise suspicion. And they didn't have to go far. They had an entire lodging house full of people and they turned their sights to Tanner's close tenants. Joseph was a tenant that caught their attention right away. He was ill and had a

persistent cough. Thinking that his end was near, the two men watched him with impatient eyes. But weeks went by and Joseph was very much still alive. Frustrated, impatient, and fresh out of money that they had just earned from Donald's body, the men decided to play the part of Grim Reaper themselves. They went into Joseph's room under the guise of checking in on him, seeing how he's doing. They knew he wasn't feeling well, and they chatted him up. They fed him copious amounts of alcohol and talked with him for hours, all the while waiting. They waited for him to pass out and drift off to sleep, and then they suffocated him with a pillow. Okay. How do you spend hours with someone and then still decide to go through with that? It gets so much worse, but yeah, I know. I agree.

Again, they hid the body in wraps and sacks and transported it to the office of Dr. Knox. After the cadaver was reviewed by Dr. Knox and one of his students, the two men were paid 10 pounds for Joseph's body. This increase in price was due to how fresh it was, and this enticed Hare and Burke even more. There was money to be made in this business, and they had a willing buyer. The men were eager to expand their business, but Hare stated they needed to find a new source for bodies. He was getting worried that they'd attract unwanted attention and the form of rumors and gossip if people kept going missing from his lodging house. It's then that the men ventured out into Edinburgh with a revised plan. They would meet victims out in town at local

pubs. When there, they'd make friendly, chat them up, and suggest that they bring the party back to Tanner's clothes, at which point they'd feed them even more alcohol to subdue them before finishing the job. This is so sick. I know. All for money. And also calculated and cold. Very. You're spending time. Like, I'm just picturing them going to the bar and literally, you're like, hey, want to drink and like dancing, hanging out, talking, learning about these people, gaining their trust, going home with these intentions. Like, it's so hearing about murder where it's like a husband and wife or some type of any type of motive like a moment of passion where you're like really angry and it happens i mean it's not easier to hear but it's more like i don't know the word it's

not as premeditated yeah it's not so cold and yeah it's not a one-off active passion etc which i mean there is no good obviously circumstance for murder but i agree there's something very cold and calculated and detached about this type of situation. Like they're viewing these people as not people, but opportunities for money. I guess this does kind of remind me of Harold Henthorn when he killed his wife and not confirmed, but were pretty suspicious. He killed his previous wife, and it was all for money. He saw dollar signs of people that he knew and supposedly loved and especially,

a life with. Yeah, there's just something so cold and really dark about it. And these men kept their partners in the loop the entire time. And somewhat surprisingly, both women were on board right away. They didn't want to do the actual killing, but they volunteer to assist their partners by keeping the alcohol going and keeping the victims interested in a good time and wanting to spend more and more time there. So they were their accomplices essentially. Oh, that's totally accomplice. Like, that's the women being like these sweet, kind. Whenever you're around women, you feel safer. It's just, it is. As a woman, especially. Yeah. As a woman especially. But I think even with men, like, men don't think of women as dangerous in general. So having a woman or kind of to go off on like a different thing,

but when you hear things like sex trafficking and a woman is doing it, it's because people feel safe around women. So when you see women who are accomplices to this, it's like another adding on the layer of like these people are doomed from the start. Right. And it's also like they're scanning the room. They go into a pub and scan the room and pick out the weakest link, essentially. It makes my stomach turn, you know.

Yeah. So now they have a plan. and they were ready and eager to put it into action. When an older woman named Abigail caught their attention, they knew they had to act. All went exactly as planned at the pub and later at the lodging house, until the men realized that they themselves were way too drunk to finish the job as planned. They offered Abigail a room for free to spend the night, under the guise of being concerned for her and her safety if she was to leave in the middle of the night alone.

She took them up on the offer and the next morning she awoke to an intense hangover. They had just been partying all night. They were feeding her tons of drinks. She woke up. She felt like shit. So Burke and Hare now are awake. They're sober and they're refocused on their goal. So they offer her hair the dog.

Here's some more alcohol. Here's some more drinks. And they started the process over again. And so now a few hours later, Abigail passes out and becomes their second murder victim. And what the men would do, their tactic, so their first murder victim, Joseph, when they smothered him with the pillow,

and they brought him to the doctor's office. And it was customary for the doctor and his assistants or students to examine the body before paying for it and accepting it. They were nervous that they would realize that there were like marks left through the substance. suffocation process and maybe he maybe like inhaled some feathers that they would notice during the dissection itself and kind of get suspicious on how he died. So instead of using something to suffocate these people, one of them would jump on top of them and hold their mouth and nose

close and the other would pin them down. Wow. So even more personal than it already was. Yeah. And that's how they went forward with every single victim from then on out. After stuffing her body into a chest and hiring a porter to transport her to the college, they were paid another 10 pounds for the body. Dr. Knox had 500 medical students attending his anatomy and dissection classes, and this was turning out to be a mutually beneficial arrangement. Burke and Hare were supplying the demand that he was creating, and no one asked questions.

The professor obtained bodies and the duo were a, allowed to continue their newfound lucrative operation uninhibited. How lucrative, you ask? 10 pounds in 1828 is about 1,500 US dollars today, which equated to about three years' worth of salary for these men. So they were raking it in by doing this. Yeah, they're getting a lot of money from this. And as many people do, with a sudden newfound wealth, Burke and Hare started using the money

to afford a much better lifestyle. They ate up better restaurants, they dressed in better clothing, and people were starting to notice. And they explained away these changes by saying that they had both somehow recently come into inheritances from relatives that had passed away. Suddenly at the same time. Suddenly at the same time, I mean, that's sketchy in itself. Well, they're already being a little sloppy if they're going about and acting like, like rich people. Well, they think that by giving this explanation that they're in the clear,

and they also stayed at their current jobs. So they were keeping up appearances by, you know, so Burke was a peddler and Hare was running the lodge, and he also did some work side jobs on boats and things. So they kept those jobs, even though they didn't really need them. In March of 1828, a sick tenant checked into the lodging house. and again never checked out. Once they turned that body in, Dr. Knox casually mentioned that it would be nice to have female bodies for dissection. Taking the hint, the next month, Burke sought out sex workers.

In April of 1828, Burke cozyed up with two young sex workers named Mary Patterson and Janet Brown. He planned to pull the same tactic he had with other victims with these two women, but this time he wished to reap the benefits of their services prior to ending their lives. Bringing them back to his home was out of the question. Helen apparently was all for murder, but drew the line at cheating. So Burke brought the girls back to his brother's place where he continued giving them drinks throughout the night and into early the next morning. Mary passed out, so Burke left her on the bed and continued the party with Janet. They started fooling around but didn't really get too far

because Helen had been worried about Burke when he didn't come home the previous night and went out looking for him. She showed up to Burke's brother's home and crashed the party. She was furious. They were throwing things back and forth at each other, screaming at each other. Meanwhile, Mary is still passed out on the bed and Janet is shielding herself in the corner away from this fight. Helen eventually left and Burke convinced Janet that everything was cool, everything was fine,

and he even had the audacity to ask her to come back later to finish the job. Wow, after all of that. And then, okay, your wife is cool with you murdering people. Maybe you should, I'm like, maybe you should check in with her. But like, this is all so messed up and so determined. And it's not even like, oh, this went bad. Like, let's call it quits. They're like, oh, this went bad.

Let's redo it in the same hours. Yeah. Janet left unknowingly leaving her friend in the hands of a killer. Oh, I forgot that she was still on the bed. Mm-hmm. So once Janet left, Burke was alone with Mary, who was unconscious, and he sent off her hair. And when he arrived, the two of them suffocated. Mary. They transported her body immediately to the doctor's office for payment, and it was customary,

like we've talked about, for Dr. Knox and his students to examine the body before it was accepted. This no longer gave either of them in anxiety. They were more relaxed than ever, and they were getting very comfortable. At this point, it had been five months, and every time they brought a body in, not once had anyone stopped them on the street during transport. They were never questioned or harassed at the office, and all their initial trepidations and worries of their tactics to obtain the bodies for dissection started to melt away. Plus, the doctor had expressed his desire for female corpses, and, there they were, delivering one. But this time, one of the students paused and leaned in close to Mary's face, concerned clouding his expression. I know this woman,

he said. How did she die? Shit, they must have thought. Burke spoke up first, explaining that they had bought her off an elderly woman who had stated Mary had died after drinking too much. If the medical student was suspicious of the story, he didn't show it. The body did smell of alcohol and she was a sex worker. So sadly, Mary's death wouldn't be much cause for concern. Off the hook, the pair continued on getting more brazen with each and every victim.

They focus primarily on elderly and ill people to claim his victims. Coming up with stories to use just in case the doctor or any of the students questioned them, they never had to use the stories because no one ever inquired about any of these people. I just don't get, how are you not concerned about how these people are getting so many people? So many and so fresh. Yeah, so fresh is very concerning. Like these clearly, like, where are they coming from? What are, why is this not a question?

That's so strange to me. And I feel like the only explanation for on my side is that he really just didn't care. Like, he didn't want to ask the question about it because there's no way. I mean, if they brought like maybe four people, if they brought four people total and all, it would be like, okay, weird, but great. Right. But we know that there's seven. from the beginning of this. So that's a lot of people. And it's in a really short amount of time because this all happened within 12 months. So in it one year they killed 17 people. Technically 16 because the first one was dead. Yeah. I'm really curious to hear about how they get caught. It's coming. Well, they're getting sloppy, so it has to come soon. Yes, very soon. So the months went on and the duo continued their killing.

By the summer of 1828, they no longer waited until nightfall to transport the bodies. And instead, they were carding them in broad daylight. So they were hidden. They were hidden in like barrels or under cloth and things. It wasn't just right out in the open. But they were just so brazen that they thought that nothing, they were just untouchable. They're very confident. They're like, no one's going to notice.

No one's going to care. We do this literally all the time. It's fine. Right. and they started becoming bolder with their victim choices. They went on to kill a grandmother and her 12-year-old grandson at the same time, as well as one of the town's most beloved locals named James Wilson, and the grandson and James Wilson both put up fights at the end and almost escaped.

But close calls didn't deter them, and despite some students starting to raise their eyebrows at the bodies rolling in, Dr. Knox created an environment that quickly squashed any rising concerns. If they wanted a spot in his program, they better accept these bodies. Business went on as usual until that fall. In October of 1828, the men and their wives were in the middle of another ploy to subdue an older woman named Mary Docherty at a local pub when their good time gained the attention of a large crowd. Many of the people staying at the lodge were attracted to the group. clearly having a good time and they wanted to join in. So now it was a huge party and bark and

hair were annoyed because that was foiling their whole plan. Yeah, you can't murder someone in front of a bunch of other people. Right. So they kind of just wrote it out and waited till everyone dissipated for the night. Everyone except for one couple named Anne and James Gray. They were the last to linger, and around midnight, Mary, their intended victim, started getting really tired. Not wanting to miss their opportunity, Burke and Hare asked the Grays for a favor. They asked if they'd be willing to give up their room at the lodge for Mary. She was old and clearly very intoxicated and they were worried about her. They didn't want her to leave and travel alone. That's how they sold it to this couple. How kind of you. Yeah, how gentlemanly. In exchange for their room,

giving up their room, they promised the Grays a nice stay at the Hare's private lodging, and they would even throw in an added bonus of making them a homemade breakfast the very next morning. The couple agreed without question and left to turn in for the night. The men then brought Mary back to Burke's room, where she was killed, and hidden in a pile of straw. The next morning, the Grays arrived to Burke's door bright and early for their promised meal. They noticed that Burke seemed a little bit flustered, but they happily entered, and joined Helen in the kitchen and chatted while they all began cooking the meal. They were talking about the previous night, and the Grace asked where Mary was.

Burke was quick to explain that the woman had become out of hand. She was belligerent, and they ended up having to kick her out, which struck Anne, particularly as very odd. Yeah, you were so concerned about her because she's too drunk to function on her own, and then you kick her out to function on her own. Like, that just doesn't make any sense. Anne started strolling around the house while they were all chatting, and as she started approaching the pile of straw near the end of the bed, Burke yelled abruptly at her,

loudly exclaiming she shouldn't be near the bed. His reaction was so stunning that it left an impression on Anne. She returned to the table where they all ate their breakfast, but something wasn't sitting right with her. As Helen and Burke were clearing the dishes, she returned to the pile and discovered the body of Mary. Horrified, she ran to her husband and told him what she had found. They had to get out of there now.

That's so scary. Can you imagine? You're in there, you know it's them because they're being super suspicious. And now you're sitting there like having to eat breakfast with these people and somehow get out of there without possibly being killed yourself. Or tipping them off that you know. Or tipping them off. Yeah, you have to like act nonchalant.

Like, oh, this toast is so good. Thank you. Doesn't taste like blood at all. Oh, my God, it gives me anxiety. Oh. So they hardly excused themselves and they made a beeline for the door. And as they were reaching for the handle, Helen cut them off. Asking what the rush was and likely buying time, Helen seemed very nervous.

But James cut right to the chase. He said they knew Mary was. dead and that they were stashing her body, and he questioned Helen about how she died and what they were doing with her body. But Helen didn't have a good reason to give them, and she folded under pressure and fell down to her knees. She was pleading with a couple to stay quiet, and cue the crocodile tears. She was sobbing and crying and saying that she couldn't stop her husband, and she wasn't involved, and she begged them to believe her and to not tell anybody. They pushed past her and headed straight to the police station.

As they fled, Helen told her husband what had happened and they made quick moves. They called hair over to dispose of Mary's body, to shuffle it to Dr. Knox's office right away, and clean the house as best they could of any evidence. By the time the police arrived, the house was pretty void of any indication that Mary had ever been there. there was, however, a small blood stain on the floor where her body had been stashed. Helen explained that this was menstrual blood, but the police weren't convinced. The police split up Helen and Burke and questioned them about the events of the previous night, but their stories didn't match up, and they were taken immediately to the police station.

As Burke and Helen were questioned, their lodge was thoroughly searched by officers, and Mary's clothes were found hidden away. It was clear that she was dead and that these two had something to do with it. They were arrested, and in the following days, Hare and Elizabeth's names were also brought up in relation to the crime, and they too were brought in for questioning. Next, an anonymous tip came in that Dr. Knox was also involved. It's unknown to this day who tipped off the police initially with this anonymous tip

about the professor, but it's believed that it was probably one of his students. that was seeing all of this happening and didn't feel like they could speak up directly to him about the situation, but once the news and the cat was kind of out of the bag, they wanted the police to know. Yeah, when they saw that they got arrested, they were like, oh, okay, this all makes sense now. Yeah, and they were like, okay, well, if you're looking at these people, you need to look into Dr. Knox as well. Dr. Knox was questioned, and when he was questioned, he stated he did indeed take bodies from Burke and Hair, but he was under the impression the whole time that they had obtained these bodies from poor lodging houses. And he said he believed that the people had passed away from natural causes and that they were given to him because no one had claimed them.

And it's just like in retrospect to make that claim, you're a medical professional and an anatomist and you're telling the police that you were under the impression that they died of natural causes. literally all of these people who were clearly suffocated, you're going to say that. Who you're also examining all the bodies too. It's not even like you're not. How do you, how is that believe, did they believe him? Yes. What? The investigation goes on and their name started making the headlines and the newspapers.

And as this was happening, several people in town came forward expressing their concern with the change in behavior in Burke and Hair. Janet Brown made an appearance to the sex worker whose friend had disappeared, and she spoke to the police saying that she was very, very suspicious of Burke and was quite certain that he was responsible for her friend's disappearance. Also, someone came forward stating that one of Burke's nephews had been recently seen wearing Jamie's clothing, and Jamie is the local beloved townsman that disappeared. That everybody knew and would recognize his clothes potentially. Exactly.

The police had all this evidence, and they had a lot of concerned townspeople, but nothing that would hold up solidly in court. After weeks of no one cracking, they offered Hare immunity if he was to give a full confession. In December of 1828, Hare turned on his friend and business partner and spilled everything. He sneakily left out his partner Elizabeth, and his statement also exonerated Professor Knox. Helen and Burke were tried for the murder of Mary Patterson, the sex worker, Mary Dockery, their last victim, and James Wilson, the beloved townsman, and they pleaded not guilty. But their world came crashing down around them. Their trial began on Christmas Eve of 1828, and not only did Elizabeth and Hare testify against them,

so did people that they had hired to transport the bodies, friends and families of the victims, and some of the medical students. Despite the defense's best attempt at deflecting the mounting pile of evidence, the very next day, the jury handed down a verdict. Helen McDougal was found not proven, which meant her life was spared, but Burke was not so lucky. He was found guilty and was sentenced to death. William Burke was hanged in January of 1829 at 37 years old,

and a crowd of over 25,000 people gathered. to watch him die. By the next month, Margaret, Helen, and Hare were all released by police and scattered. The townspeople essentially drove all three of them out of town, and all three were constantly sieged by angry mobs and protesters and run out of Edinburgh. They may not have been found guilty in the court of law, but they were certainly guilty in the eyes of everybody else, and they were more than unwelcome. Helen relocated to England, Margaret fled to Ireland, and it is unknown what Hare did with the rest of his life after he snuck out of town in the middle of the night. Dr. Knox was found not guilty of any crime, but was also the subject of intense public

scrutiny and mob behavior. People harassed him. Cartoons were made of him and published in papers, and people in town even built and then burned an effigy of him outside of his own home. Wow. He stood by his claim for years that he had no knowledge that the bodies he had accepted were murder victims, and surprisingly, he stayed in Edinburgh for years. He continued his work as a professor until he moved into work as a pathological anatomist, and then later opened his own practice and died in 1862. And although William Burke was executed, he lives on, in a way. Because while the judge had condemned him to death, when passing down his sentence,

Judge Boyle added, quote, your body should be publicly dissected and anatomized, and I trust that if there is ever customary to preserve skeletons, yours will be preserved, in order that posterity may be kept in remembrance of your atrocious crimes. That's right, William Burke was to face the same fate as his victims. He was hanged on January 28, 1829, and was publicly dissected in the anatomy theater of the university's old college. That is irony right there. Justice, baby. What is it? Karma's bitch is the phrase. Yeah. I think I'm looking for. And there it is. Students and onlookers flooded the hall, desperate to witness the murderer turned victim.

There were so many people, in fact, that there was actually a little riot that started, and it was finally decided that after the dissection was concluded, that all of the people who didn't have ticketed entrances to the dissection would be allowed to pass by his body in groups of 50. So thousands and thousands of people came to witness his public dissection. Can we just talk about how morbid this time period is for all of its people? Like first, there's 25,000 people who gather around to watch a person be hung. And then there's thousands of people to watch his body be dissected. and this is like entertainment.

Like I feel like this is something you, for them that they pregame to and then show up. You know, like it's so morbid and that would never like if you are about to say that that would never happen. I'm like you would do it or that I'm not going to say it would never happen because it has happened. The thing is. It's just so weird to me. The thing is is just I also think it's very intriguing at how the Victorians had

such a deep fascination with death and would go to these things. Like, yes, of course, it is some form of entertainment in a very morbid way. But I can't say with any confidence that if it wasn't publicly allowed and like socially acceptable, that I wouldn't be at a public dissection. If it was, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. But a public hanging. That's a little different. Yeah. That's a little different. Like 25,000 people that show up. to watch that is just wild to me. Yeah. It's just like.

And these anatomy theaters, so I know I've mentioned this before on one of the episodes. I totally forget which one. But there is a book called The Butchering Art. And I have it. I've read it. It's really good. It's essentially talking about medicine and the Victorian era medicine in particular. And these dissection labs and anatomy theaters, have you ever seen one or know how it's set up?

I don't know. I've been, I don't think so, no. I mean, I remember when they did the human exhibit in Boston. The Body Works. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, I remember that. But I don't think I've ever been to anything like that. So I haven't been either, but I've seen photos.

And essentially, what it is is literally a theater. So on the bottom floor in the center of this circle is the table or the area where the professor is with the corpse and surrounding it in a circle are like tears and bleachers of seats. So there's literally people surrounding this area from all angles, looking down on it, observing and learning and watching. And that's how they would teach their students. It's not like a classroom with six people and you're a lecture hall. It is. It is a lecture hall. That's exactly what it is. Going back to whatever I was saying. I don't even know what I was saying because I'm off on a tangent now. The person who actually did the dissection was not Knox. That would have been super weird. I don't think they allowed that.

It was another professor at the college and he did the dissection. It took about two hours. And while he was doing it, speaking of morbid, he took his quill pen and dipped it into his blood and wrote, quote, this is written with the blood of W.M. Burke who was hanged in Edinburgh. This blood was taken from his head. That's so morbid. I was going to say, where is it displayed? Today, you can see Burke's skeleton in the anatomical museum of the Edinburgh Medical School and his death mask and a book bound with his tanned skin can be viewed at Surgeons Hall Museum.

They made a book out of his skin. What is the book? I don't know. I don't know. I could probably easily look it up, but I saw a picture. There's pictures. That's some hocus pocus. stuff right there. Like, is his eyeball on the front of it? No, but I will say if you look up the book, you would never know it doesn't look like the book

from Hocus Pocus. Like, it literally looks like a book. Ew. And the death mask is actually next to a living mask of his counterpart hair. Death mask's obituary, the podcast obituary, just recently, like last week did an episode about death masks and how they have links to Madam Tussaud's Wax Museum and it's really really interesting. So if you're into this, definitely listen to that. But essentially, death masks were created as literal molds of people's faces because before photography, you had nothing to remember someone by. So someone would make a cast of your face after you had died and then that would be your

little token of remembrance. Very sweet. So sweet. And to wrap this up, grave robbing continued to be a huge problem even after the Birkenhair case, but came to an end with the Anatomy Act of 1832. The act, largely influenced by this case, required professors practicing anatomy to obtain a license and to provide physicians, teachers, surgeons, and students legal access to corpses that were unclaimed after death, specifically those who died in workhouses or in prison. It also allowed a person to donate the bodies of their next of kin in exchange for burial costs as long as no other relative objected. So that ended a lot of this grave robbing resurrection men because this act.

To put some actual guidelines on things and make it a, yeah. Well, that's good because clearly it was a problem that needed to be addressed at some point. Yep. And today, the five surviving coffins of the original 17 are displayed in the National Museum of Scotland, where they have been on display since the early 1900s after they were donated by a private collector. To this day, the mystery of the miniature coffins continues. Perhaps they are effigies to those lost at sea, talismans, representatives of long lost loved ones, or even lucky charms. But maybe they symbolize. the victims of Bark and Hare's money-making murderous scheme, made by a local whose heart went out to the 16 lives and 17 bodies that were taken by the two selfish men over the course of 12 months, who were lovingly created and clothed, placed in carefully crafted coffins, and tucked away from the bustling streets and prodding eyes of Edinburgh, laid down peacefully for eternal rest on Arthur's seat in Holly Rood Park.

So what do you think? I think it's a strange coincidence for a really big case for it to not be that, like, they're victims in the coffins. But I do have a question for those little miniature coffins. Did they have any identifying markers? Like, were some women, were some men? No, and that's a great question because they were all men. and obviously there are women victims.

However, the curators of the museum and researchers determined that the figurines were made from repurposed toy soldiers who were all men. They were just manufactured as men. So while it's accepted that the coffins themselves were handmade, the figurines within them were old toy soldiers. Like you can see the line on the head where like someone removed probably. the soldier helmet and where the arms the shoulders are and the legs they swing like a toy soldier would and they had painted black feet like a boot like a black boot for the soldiers but all the uniform stuff was taken off and then someone had hand sewn everyone has a different outfit and all like put them dressed them and put them in the coffin and buried them together so a lot of people

think that these represent the victims and it's also somebody's way of giving them a burial that they never received. So it's like a loving memory burial practice for these victims. And the other thing is when these boys discovered this in 1836, it was only a couple years after this all hit the fan and everything happened. So it wasn't like it was proven that these coffins were. from 20 years ago that would knock it out of the running from because it was just like so close close yeah yeah wow that's so interesting i'd be really curious to go to the museum and see this all in display and they're tiny they're like i'll put the obviously i'll post pictures and i'll link the little youtube video but they're tiny you can literally put your hand out and they'll fit in your hands so

interesting so so interesting so that was a little mystery and obviously it's still not solved, but it just has such a cool tie. And I know this had nothing to do with hiking or the outdoors or anything like that, but it was a really cool case that had a link to a park. Yeah, a park. Yeah, it's found in a park. So hey, it counts. Anyways, I hope you liked it. And Cassie was a shout out to Cassie because she was the one who sent me this link about the coffins. And she was like, I literally know nothing about this. And I feel like you would really enjoy it. I came across the article and it was just like a miniature coffins found in whatever.

And I read the first paragraph and I was like, I'm not reading anymore because this has your name written all over it. Danielle, Daniel, this is like if she hears about miniature coffins and I read something that said something about potential serial killer and what was it? It said, and witchcraft. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on here, but this has Danielle's name written all over it. And it did. I'm glad you decided to cover it because I did want to know about it. And it is super, super interesting. Yeah.

Very strange. Very weird. Very cool. Yeah. I hope everybody liked it to you. And learned a little something about grave robbing history, I guess. Yeah. So I guess that's it.

And thank you for making our year. so wonderful and so different than anything we've ever experienced. And we're so happy to be on this journey with everybody. And we can't wait for more. We keep saying this. Like we have a lot of stuff planned for the next upcoming year. And we're just, we're just really excited. Yeah, we're really, really excited. And we appreciate all of your support. That's it for today. But we do have at the end of this week another new bonus episode our campfire stories is going to come out on patreon so if you can't wait until next monday and want to join our patreon you can go mpaddpodcast.com and you can go to our patreon there or you can go to our instagram national park after dark

and go to our link in our bio and you can join patreon there we have a ton of bonus content on there now almost a year's worth yeah so there's a lot of bonus episodes on there and we visit parks and National Forest and this week we're doing a mysterious disappearance. That's very, very interesting. So if that's something you're into, you can check that out. And otherwise, we'll see you next week. In the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you so much for coming along with us again this week. If you have a trail or story suggestion, send us an email at N-P-A-D-Stories at gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD podcast.

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