National Park After Dark - Murder or Kidnapping in a Gateway Town: New River Gorge National Park

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Fayetteville, West Virginia sits on the edge of the New River Gorge, a small Appalachian town now known as a gateway to one of America’s newest national parks. But on Christmas Eve in 1945, it became the setting for one of the most haunting unsolved mysteries in American history. After a house fire destroyed the home of George and Jennie Sodder, five of their children vanished without a trace, leaving behind conflicting investigations, reported sightings, unsettling clues, and a decades-long search for answers.For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to the week’s partners!Cash App: Download Cash App Today: [https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/ejy661fu] #CashAppPod. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. See terms and conditions at https://cash.app/legal/us/en-us/card-agreement. Direct Deposit, Overdraft Coverage and Discounts provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit http://cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures.Rocket Money: Use our link to get started saving. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. There are towns that never fully escape their past. places where a single unanswered tragedy becomes woven into everyday life, passed down through generations as rumor, cautionary tales, and quiet unease. Long after investigation stall and the headlines fade, the questions remain, shaping how a community understands itself and why some places feel permanently unsettled.

Feliska, Iowa is defined by the 1912 acts murders that wiped out an entire family and two visiting children. Despite suspects, confessions, and decades of investigation, the case remains officially unsolved. In Pennsylvania, the town of Centralia was slowly erased by an underground coal fire that ignited in 1962 and still burns today. Families were forced to leave, streets were abandoned, and debate over how the fire truly started has never fully gone away. In Keddy, California, a quiet mountain town, became infamous after the brutal 1981 cabin 28 murders where three people were killed and a child was abducted, a case riddled with evidence mishandling and unanswered questions that continue to haunt the community. There are places where lost without answers becomes a kind of haunting,

where tragedy is not confined to the past, but woven into the identity of the town itself. And then there's Fayetteville, West Virginia, the gateway town of New River Gorge National Park, a place that still cannot shake the questions surrounding a suspicious fire that left five children unaccounted for. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Hello, everyone, and welcome to National Park After Dark. My name is Danielle. I'm Cassie. Welcome.

It's almost Christmas. It is. Yeah. And I'm so thankful that, well, I don't know if I'm thankful if you're doing this story because I know it's going to be a tough one. but your intro just perfectly aligns with a bone that I have to pick with our audience. Oh, okay. And this rarely happens, but I'm upset and I need to voice it. So you mentioned a gateway town, so which I'm guessing your story is going to center around today.

Yes. And I was recently at a gateway town for my birthday. And I don't know what happened to me there. No one warned me that Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg, Tennessee, are a completely different realm of existence. And there's... Where am I? Where am I? So my grape really has to do with all of the people.

There's so many people who love Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Adore it. I just can't say enough good things about it. And I'm sure that that's valid. because the minimal experience I had in the park, I only had a few hours, but it was really pretty. And it was awesome. And I know I went during probably the quote unquote ugliest time of year to experience that park. You know, I was there last week. But no one, even a breath of, hey, just a warning. Pigeon Forge and Gatlinburg, if you go in that entrance, it's, there's a lot of weird shit around there. And I just need you to be warned. No one said anything about those towns.

And I texted you immediately. I was like, I can't even describe where I am right now. If I had to put it into words, probably the mini golf capital of the world. No one said anything about that. Like that seems like a really big portion that should have been told. Should have been noted. We've covered Great Smoky Mountain many times on the podcast. That's what I'm saying.

No one even brought it up. No one said anything. Not even like, hey girl. Hey, girlie. Just so, you know, it feels like it might not be your thing. No one said to me. What other secrets are you keeping from us? Yeah.

Now I, the trust has been shattered a little bit. Not only, and it's not even like the mini golf thing. If it was just that, I would never say anything. Because I happen to know a lot of people who love mini golf and that's fine. But everything was like, it was like the biggest tourist trap you could ever fall into, like for miles. Everything was just like every building was like built to be this weird. Like, okay, perfect example. The whole reason I went there is because I wanted to see the Titanic Museum.

The museum is shaped like the ship. I thought it was so unique and cute and fun and like, wow, this is so, it's never been done before. Yeah. Well, apparently every single building in both of those towns are shaped to be what they're advertising. Whatever the theme is inside. It's crazy. It's so crazy. I felt like I was in this weird wonky, like, Willy Wonka type. Amusement park. Yeah. It was, I feel unsettled a little bit. I've never experienced it. So I can't bring my own opinion. And I also wasn't keeping anything from you because I didn't know.

I would have, we would have thought immediately. But, you know, maybe maybe people who are all four Great Toking Mountains National Park. are going into a different, through a different entrance. Or maybe they're not spending time there. Maybe they're just straight going into the park and experiencing the park. Yeah, just kind of like busting right through. It just, it feels like two very different worlds that are literally side by side, which makes it even more jarring, I feel like. So anyway, in retrospect, I'm not super shocked just because it is the most visited

national park that we have. So it makes sense that they would have a huge. huge resource for people to like things for people to do in hotels and restaurants and things like that to accommodate all of those people who are visiting. But it does feel very not national park like. I hear you and I agree with you. If it was diverse in any way, like everything is just kind of carbon copies of each other for miles in like slightly different forms. Like I get you need lodging and food and entertainment, but it's all very centered around like it felt like Disney World in the mountains of Tennessee. And I was not prepared. And nothing you

get if you want to bring your family there. It's definitely, I will say perfect for families, young families. Like it's a kid's paradise. Kids paradise there. But yeah, anyway, so I don't want to get too hung up on that. I just felt like I had to say something because I felt a little betrayed a little. I don't know. Like, I'm just like, I would like to go back to that park, but in a different way. Maybe everyone has had the same experience when they go, but they're like, you know what? We're keeping it low. We're keeping it on the down low because I think everyone should be this shocked every time they go for the first time. Yeah, I'm not going to warn anyone. It's an experience. Maybe it's a running joke. Maybe now you're in the club. Maybe. Well, yeah, I don't know. Next time someone tells you they're going a great smoking mountain just be like, have a nice time. Enjoy.

Oh, you're going through the Tennessee entrance. Perfect. Excellent. You're going to love it. Have a nice time. I've been there too. You're going to love it. And I don't know.

Maybe I run the risk of I kind of feel a little scared saying this also because kind of like the Taylor Swift army of like, you don't talk bad about her girl. She's swift. Yeah. Yeah. Don't do that. You can't talk bad about Gatlinburg. What's wrong with you? I feel like there's not.

I don't know. They're not. They're proud. They're proud folk down there, okay? And I don't want to upset anybody. I'm sure I love people to make their living in that town. But anyway, yeah, the actual park itself, what I got to experience was quite lovely. The drive was nice.

We went to the trail where Glennon. and Bradley was mauled to death by Black Bear. Fun. But that was great. I had a ton of time recommend. Yeah. But anyway, so that's my roundabout, like, connection to a gateway town experience. Hopefully yours is better.

I've never been to this town, personally. But from what I've read, it sounds like a cool, cool spot to be. So we are going to be going to Fayetteville, West. Virginia, which I think whenever I hear Fayetteville, I always think of North Carolina right away, just because that's the military base whenever I hear Fayetteville, but it's West Virginia, Fayetteville, West Virginia. It is Gateway Town to New River Gorge National Park, which of course is one of our newer parks. And we're going to be diving into kind of a mysterious happening. It's a suspicious fire, whether we think it was an accident, arson, kidnapping, murder, whatever.

I'm going to go deep into the story and then we can kind of talk at the end, but what you think might have happened. Okay. So before we dive into the story, let's talk about the Gateway Town. Fayetteville, West Virginia has been named one of the coolest towns in America, a title that feels unsurprising given that it's the gateway town to one of the newest national parks we have, New River Gorge. With a population of roughly 2,800 people, Fayetteville is small but packs a punch because of its location, and because of its history. The town is made up of people from many different backgrounds, longtime Appalachian families, transplants drawn by mountains and rivers, artists, guides, and small business owners who have chosen to build their lives there. What defines Fayetteville

more than anything is its relationship with the New River Gorge. The town sits right on the rim of this vast canyon, placing it quite literally at the doorstep of one of the most dramatic landscapes in the eastern United States. The New River, considered one of the oldest rivers in the world cuts a deep path through the Appalachian Plateau, carving sandstone cliffs, and forested slopes that are some of the oldest in America. For obvious reasons, Fayetteville is synonymous with outdoor recreation. The surrounding area offers some of the nation's best hiking trails and world-class rock climbing routes. Climers travel from across the country to test themselves on the gorgeous sheer sandstone walls. The new and Gawley rivers are legendary in the whitewater community,

known for powerful rapids that range from approachable to extreme. Rafters and kayakers pass through Fayetteville, turning the town into a seasonal hub of river culture. I remember actually when I worked with a bunch of rafting, rafting guides and whitewater kayakers, they actually went up. They do. I don't know if it's yearly, I believe it is, but they have something called golly fest

where White River kayakers go up for a long weekend and they run the river and party, listen to music. And it's a whole fun. That's cool. It's a whole fun. But that's not the only outdoor sport that gets their spotlight here. Every October, and this is something I think we should go to sometime, I think we've said this before. But Fayetteville becomes the focus of national attention during Bridge Day.

On the third Saturday of the month, the New River Gorge Bridge is closed to traffic and opened to base jumpers from around the world. I feel like you've talked about this before. Am I hallucinating? I think I did in a past New River Gorge episode because we've been here. Wait. Twice. Oh, you know what? It's the one I think I'm recalling, which I randomly thought of the other day when I was

thinking of just some of the bonus episodes and topics we've done. Didn't you do one about the woman who faked her own death? Yeah. Was that here? Yeah, there's a new river gorge. I think that's when you talked about it. Yeah. And that's an outsider's only story, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that one was interesting. If you're not on Patreon or Apple subscriptions, I covered a story in New River Gorge about this woman who faked her death. She faked falling off a cliff in New River Gorge and she was caught. And she did it so badly. She did it so badly.

You should listen to the episode. It's so crazy. It's funny, actually. She gets caught in, like, spoiler alert, but she gets caught hiding in her closet. Like, it's crazy. This whole story is wild. Yeah. But, yeah, and I think we did talk about that.

But I was rereading this. I was like, oh, this sounds like such a fun. It just seems like such a cool vibe here. And I think going for base jumping, the bridge day, seeing base jumpers would be really cool. It's one of my states. I still have to go. I know you've tackled all 50 states now as of 2025. Congratulations.

Thank you. But West Virginia is still one of the states I have to check off the list. October, 2006. Here we come. Yeah. Our schedule is free as of right now. Yeah. It's true.

Yeah. Yeah. For the second, what is it? We're going to bridge day. Yeah, we're going to bridge day. But to give you a little bit more context of bridge day, one by one, these base jumpers step off the bridge and drop nearly 900 feet towards the river below, while thousands of spectators gather along the gorge rim. The town is filled with vendors, artisans, music, food, and crowds drawn by a spectacle that exists nowhere else in the whole country. Just minutes from town, New River Gorge National Park and Preserve stretches across more than 70,000 acres of protected land. The park offers countless scenic overlooks and opportunities for hiking, biking, whitewater rafting, and climbing. Towering above it all is, of course, the New River Gorge Bridge, which, when it opened in 1977, was one of the longest single-span arch bridges in the whole world. For visitors willing to brave the height, the bridgewalk provides a guided catwalk tour beneath the bridge, offering a straight down view into the gorge below. I would personally love to do that.

I would totally walk across that bridge. And it looks like it's a pretty safe. It's a walkway below the edge. That's what they all say. That's true. That is what they all say. But Fayetteville's identity was not always defined by adventure tourism or national park signage. Its history reaches much farther back. Girl, winter is so last season.

And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat.

It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Originally known as Vandalia, the town was reached. named Fayetteville in 1873. It was named for Marquise de Lafayette, whose statue still stands on the lawn of the Fayette County Courthouse. During the Civil War, Fayetteville's strategic position made it a contested place held by both Union and Confederate forces at different points. The town's historic district today includes roughly 75 preserved homes, buildings, and sites tied to that era. Today, the town hosts historic walking tours to learn all about their layered history, including

ghost walking tours, which I thought was a fun. I just did one in Knoxville. Did you? How was it? It was good. So I was with Jeff and he was a very good sport because it was pretty cold and we were the only people on the tour. So it was very one-on-one history talk for like.

And of course I did the 90-minute one. I did the extended. So for 90 minutes, it was a lot of. direct conversation about history. And similarly, I think to what you're explaining, it's, Knoxville is very, a lot of the history they were talking about was civil war based. So it was, yeah, it was light ghost, I think, like lightly paranormal, more historic based. So I thought it was great. We had a great time. Both of us loved it. for sure

yeah so basically there's a lot going on here with outdoor tourism and then historic tours and a lot of history here it is within this layered place shaped by ancient rivers hard history and the pull of wild landscapes that one of west virginia's most enduring and unsettling mysteries unfolded and of course because it's christmas this week i had to tell a really dark christmas story so on christmas eve in nineteen 45, long before Fayetteville was known as a gateway town to a national park, five children disappeared here under very odd and suspicious circumstances. George and Jenny Sauter gathered at home with nine of their ten children to celebrate the

holiday. That poor woman. Ten children. It's a lot. That is a lot. I think there's something about fun. There's something fun about big families, though. And in this time, people had a lot more children.

Yeah. I just, every time I think of a big number of children. I translate that into how many years of that woman's life that she was either pregnant, recovering from childbirth, breastfeeding, etc. Yeah, I always think straight for the mom. I'm like, you are a superhuman hero. It's amazing. To be able to do that, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. So nine of their 10 children were home for the holiday. One son was not in the house that night, but the rest of the family filled the two-story wood frame home with the family. familiar sounds of Christmas. Presents were open, new toys were passed from hand to hand, the house felt warm, busy, and alive. As the night wore on, five of the Sauter children asked their parents for permission to stay up

a little longer. Maurice, who was 14, along with Martha, 12, Lewis, who is nine, Jenny, who was eight, and five-year-old buddy wanted to keep playing with their Christmas toys after the rest of the family went to bed. They promised they would finish their chores before going to sleep, so George and Jenny agreed, unaware that the decision. would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Sometimes shortly after midnight,

Jenny Sauter was awoken by their house phone ringing. When she answered, a woman on the other end asked to speak to someone Jenny did not recognize. Jenny told her that she had the wrong number. Then the caller laughed and Jenny could hear the sounds of glasses clinking and voices in the background before the line went dead. Jenny assumed it was a prank call and thought little of it. Before returning to bed, Jenny noticed that the lights inside the house were still on, the curtains were open, and the front door was unlocked.

She saw Marion asleep on the living room sofa, which made her assume the rest of the children had gone to their rooms to go to sleep. Believing everyone was safely inside the house, Jenny turned off the light she passed, closed the curtains, lock the door for the night, and returned to her bedroom. Not long after, Jenny was awoken again. This time by a sharp, loud bang on the roof, following by a rolling sound. She got up, looked outside, and saw nothing out of the ordinary, so she returned to bed. Around 1.30 a.m., she was awoken for a third time, now by the smell of smoke coming into their room. When Jenny opened the bedroom door, she saw flames already spreading through the house. She screamed for George and began calling for the children to get out.

Smoke thickened quickly and the fire moved fast. Two of their sons managed to escape through an upstairs window with the flames so close that they singed their hair as they fled. Their daughter, Marion, made it outside carrying the baby, Sylvia, whose crib had been in her. her parents' bedroom. George and Jenny escaped the house and immediately realized the downstairs rooms, including the living room, dining room, kitchen, office, and the bedroom they shared were engulfed in flames. But five of their children were still missing. Maurice, Martha, Louis, Jenny, and Betty, who they assumed were trapped on the second floor. George raced to reach them through the upstairs windows. When he went to grab the ladder, he always kept propped up against the house

and had seen the previous day, he found it was mysteriously missing. Thinking quickly, he tried to start one of his two coal trucks, planning to drive it up to the house and climb onto the roof, but neither vehicle would start, despite having worked perfectly the day before. In a desperate attempt to put out the fire, he tried to scoop water from a rain barrel, only to find it frozen solid.

Inside the house, the smoke and fire churned through the stairwell, cutting off the access to the second floor, where George believed his children were trapped. He broke a window and attempt to reenter the house, slicing a deep gash in his arm. Blood slicked his skin, but in a frantic attempt to save his children, he barely noticed. He could see nothing through the smoke and the heat forced him back out of the house. Marion ran to a neighbor's house to call the fire department, but there was no operator response. Another neighbor saw the blaze and tried calling from a nearby tavern again without success.

Finally, a neighbor drove into town and tracked down fire chief F.J. Morris, who initiated Fayetteville's fire alert system, which was basically a phone cascade in which one volunteer firefighter would call another one to alert them. Because at this time, there was only volunteer fire departments. It wasn't like call 911 and you'll reach everyone. It was like kind of a game of telephone where you would slowly reach everybody. And this is the 1950s. 1945. Okay. Although the fire department was only two and a half miles away, the crew did not arrive until around 8 a.m., nearly seven hours after the fire had broken out. Seven hours? Seven hours was the response time.

Okay. By then, the solder home had been reduced to mostly just a smoking pile of ash with structure pieces of the house here and there. Back in 1945, I think it's important to mention again that firefighting in Fayetteville was entirely volunteer-based with little training and very limited equipment. So in short, there was simply not the resources or coordination that modern departments today rely on. So the seven-hour response time was not entirely unheard of. On Christmas Day, George and Jenny assumed that five of their children were dead. A brief search of the property turned up no human remains, but fire

chief Morris suggested that the fire had been hot enough to completely cremate their bodies. However, I do want to note that a fire needs to reach 1,400 to 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit or 760 degrees Celsius to 9802 degrees Celsius to cremate a body and remain at that temperature for several hours. This intense heat typically from natural gas or propane is far hotter and more controlled than a typical house fire, which usually burns around 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. So to assume that right off the bat, it's pretty unlikely. that especially for five individuals. Five children, yeah.

And I mean, we kind of learned a little bit about that when I covered Grand Parson's story in Joshua Tree because his friends attempted to cremate him by lighting him on fire. And it did not work out. As friends would, I hope you would do for me. But, yeah, no. If you wanted to be cremated that way, I would. Thank you. But yeah, no, I immediately find that difficult to believe, especially for five

individuals who were assuming, even at this point, I know you kind of preface this saying that it's mysterious. So there's got to be other elements in here going on. But even if we were just taking it at face value, like they, I'm assuming they're in different parts of the house or in different positions or in different places that they're not all in the same exact conditions where this is going to be possible, that they're all going to be cremated to and reduce to ash. or cremains, I should say. Yeah, with nothing. With no, I mean, to cremate bones is, like I just mentioned, it takes, it's a long process and to have nothing, I think is weird.

But we'll get into that more. A state police inspector attributed the fire to faulty wiring and the coroner's office issued five death certificates just before the new year, despite finding no evidence of their bodies, listing the cause as fire or suffocation. Against the advice of the fire marshal, George covered the basement with five feet of dirt and planted flowers over the site, intending to preserve the space as a memorial for his children. But as the days passed, doubt began to take root. Marion would later recall that during the fire, she never once saw her siblings at the window, which she thought, you know, if they were trying to escape, wouldn't we have seen them, wouldn't we have seen their faces in the window or trying to open the window or, like, why did it? we never see any evidence of them. She also never smelled burning flesh, something people often say is an unmistakable smell. The family struggled to understand how five children could perish in a

fire and leave no trace behind, especially when identifiable remains of household objects were still found in the rubble. Slowly, the sodders began stitching together moments that now, in retrospect, felt unsettling. Months before the fire, a stranger appeared at the saudder. her home asking George for hauling work, hoping to be hired for trucking jobs, hauling dirt, coal, or freight through George's business. It wasn't uncommon for people to stop by looking for work, so at the time George didn't question it. But now, some of his behavior felt odd. He wandered to the back of the house, pointed at the fuse boxes, and casually remarked that they would cause a fire someday, despite the wire having been recently inspected and approved by the local power company. Around the

same time, a life insurance salesman became angry when George declined a policy, warning him that his house would go up and smoke and his children would be destroyed as punishment for his outspoken criticism of Italy's dictator Benito Mussolini. So now let's get into a little bit of Georgia's history. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories. and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, L, every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen.

Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. George Sauter was born in Italy and immigrated to the United States in 1908 at just 13 years old. He found work on the Pennsylvania Railroads hauling water and supplies to laborers, and after several years, move south to West Virginia. Intelligent and driven, George worked first as a driver before launching his own trucking and hauling business, moving dirt for construction projects,

and later hauling freight and coal. By the 1940s, the Saughters were considered a stable, middle-class family, well-known in Fayette County. George was also outspoken about politics, particularly his deep opposition to Benito Mussolini, the fascist dictator who ruled Italy for more than two decades, decades and led the country into World War II alongside Nazi Germany. In immigrant communities like Fayetteville's opinions about Mussolini often ran hot and criticism could be taken personally.

Because of that, the salesman's angry response was off-puting, but hadn't felt overly concerning at the time. It was kind of a regular, he's like, I know I put my voice out here. I know I voice my political views. It's not, it's not uncommon for someone to get pissed about it. So it was just kind of a thought. It's like, oh, Okay, him and I don't get along. Other family members recalled seeing a man sitting in a parked car near the house shortly before Christmas, watching the younger children as they came home. A telephone repairman later told the solder's that their phone line appeared to have been cut, not burned.

If the fire had been electrical, George reasoned, the power should have failed and the lights should have gone out. Instead, while the fire was ablaze, some of the house's lights had remained on during the whole period. So he thought, you know, if this was an electrical thing, wouldn't, why were the upstairs lights on? Why were things on during this fire? Right. And the telephone wire was cut. Yeah. And they found that after. It's like, so they couldn't call. Right. Which was also, I mean, it from the story, it seems like, and the ladder is gone and the car's not working? Both cars also. Both cars. And it's not some bizarre cold snap where everything is deemed. No, it's just a typical winter in West Virginia. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Within months, George and Jenny began to believe the unthinkable. Perhaps their children had not died in the fire after all. Perhaps they had been kidnapped. As the days following the fire stretched into weeks, the Sauter family found themselves caught between official explanations and their own growing sense that something was deeply wrong. Jenny could not reconcile the official explanation with what she knew to be true. She knew how much of the house had remained identifiable afterwards.

Household appliances, metal objects, and fragments of furniture were still visible in the debris. If those things had survived, how could five children have vanished without a trace? And she wanted to answer this question on her own, so she kind of did her own morbid experiment. She began burning animal bones and controlled fires behind the house. She would use chicken bones, pork chop bones, beef joints, and each time she was left with charred but recognizable remains. Later, an employee at a crematorium told her that even after two hours at temperatures exceeding 2,000 degrees, bones still remained. And with the Sauter family home, they never measured the amount of heat. But again, with a house fire, it's not going to exceed

2,000 degrees. And even though it was burning throughout the night, the house wouldn't have been burning that hot. Right. It would have been smoldering. portion of the house. Exactly. Yeah. And not to be, it's super morbid here, but as someone who has handled cremains of people, there are, it's not all just nice cremaine, like, fine dust. Like, there are fragments of bone sometimes in there. And that's in a controlled, like, you know what I mean? it's just, I don't know, that I feel like we can throw away right away. And I feel like that's now accepted maybe when people reflect on this case with retrospect and more knowledge and even the mom right away. She's like, this is not explaining. Yeah. And I think this is why the

story, it's part of why the story has remained such a mystery. So of course, after doing all these experiments and getting all this knowledge, the doubts for this only deepened. And then reports of sightings began to trickle in. At first time, tentative, then persistent. A woman claimed she had seen the missing children peering from a passing car while the fire was still in progress. Another woman who operated a tourist stop between Fayetteville and Charleston, roughly 50 miles away, said she saw the children the following morning and served them breakfast.

She recalled that a car with Florida license plates was parked outside. All five together? Yes. Okay. A woman working at a hotel in Charleston. later came forward after seeing the photos of the missing children in a newspaper. She told authorities she had seen four of the five children roughly a week after the fire. According to her statement, the children were traveling with two men and two women,

all of whom appeared to be of Italian descent. While she tried to speak to the children, the adults became hostile, speaking rapidly in Italian and refusing to let her interact with them. She said the group stayed only one night and left early the next. next morning and that the interaction left her with a strong sense of unease. George and Jenny did not know what to make of these reports, but they could not ignore them and more witnesses continued to come forward. One came forward claiming he had seen a man at the scene of the fire removing a block and tackle, a device commonly used for pulling

car engines. George wondered if this explained why his truck, which had worked perfectly fine the day before would not start when he tried to use either of them to rescue his children. The man was later arrested and pleaded guilty to stealing the block and tackle, though he denied any involvement in the fire itself. Okay. I need clarification on this. Just because I don't understand the workings of automobiles, really. Why did I just call them automobiles? Cars. Yeah. They were automobiles in the 1945. That's true.

Yes. So both of their vehicles had something removed from them. Yeah. And someone saw this guy doing it and he later was arrested. Okay. My follow-up question is, was it just their two vehicles or was it, it was this guy just taking this stuff from everybody's cars in the neighborhood? It seems like from this instance, from what I could find, it was just there. It was just their house that he was prosecuted for.

Okay. Because what was the thing? I mean, I think it's still very much an issue, but that people are going around taking from people's cars. Oh, not their alternator. Not their alternators. Yes. Is it they're all the? No.

No. Yeah, there's something. There's something. There's something. People are out here. Because they're worth a lot of money. Yes. And your car doesn't run without it.

I don't think. Yeah. If we knew what that thing was, it would be super helpful. I feel like you know what I'm saying. So that's all that matters. Yeah, I do. It'll come to me. It's like I got the tip of my time. It's funny because my stepdad, Robert, he'll, I remember vividly, especially when I lived in Colorado, it was that's when we were on high alert for it. And he's like, you got I'll be on the lookout. I'm like, okay, first of all, I don't even know what they're after. Second of all, what am I to do? I have to park my car. I can't just stand guard. Yeah. What am I? If they're taking it, they're taking it. Because it's not inside. You can access it from just underneath.

I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And now I'm worried, but I don't know how to protect my car from somebody taking this thing, which I feel hasn't been taken. What the hell is it called? Yeah, we got to know. Hold on. It's not the alternator. No. Which I also don't know what that is.

But I know the word is wrong. Cadillic converters. Oh. That's what it is. Whatever those things are. Whatever those little valuable things are. They convert things to other things. They're really important.

They're super important. But yeah. So anyway, going back to this guy, you know, like if he was on the hunt for Cadillac converters and he was just taking him from everybody's car or whatever, this block and turn, what was it? Yeah, it's removing a block and tackle, which I don't know. With 1945, I don't know. Cars are, I don't really know what that is.

But you know what I'm saying. Yeah. But it's interesting if he was just. I don't know. Do we believe in coincidences? I mean, all of this happened that same night. And someone saw them removing it like around the same time of the fire. Who robs a house that's on fire?

I don't know. I think a lot of people actually. But if you see a house. house on fire, you're going to go steal from their car? Not me personally, but I feel like it's... I mean, when cities are looted and things are on fire and all that, I mean, people go crazy for stealing stuff. That's different, though.

This is just someone's neighborhood and their home is on fire. That's true. And your first thought is not to... I've got to get that tackle box or whatever. Tackle box. I know that's for fishing, okay? Anyway. Well, he denied any involvement in the fire.

itself, but I think it could or could not be sketchy. It could totally be a coincidence if we believed in those. Well, just mounted with everything else it feels not. Fitchy. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Officially, investigators maintained that the fire began downstairs near the office where the telephone and wiring were located and quickly spread through the first floor before racing up the stairwell. But for the sodders, another detail never fit cleanly into that explanation. On the night of the fire, Jenny had been awakened by a sharp thud on the roof, followed by the sound of something rolling across it, long before she smelled smoke or soft flames. Days later, when Sylvia found a small, hard, rubber object in the yard, Jenny immediately thought back to that sound. George became convinced

that the object could have been related to a wartime, a wartime device, which was something, it's a wartime incendi. I meant to look up the pronunciation. incinerator incendiary incendiary is that how you say it I've heard that word before like a grenade kind of or like a fire thrower

or something no time incendiary device yeah it's basically like a it's an explosive that was used in wars and he thought that this could be sorry we know a lot of things

details about things I feel Yeah, I don't know if it's like we haven't recorded in a week. So I just feel silly. But and it's not funny. It's just you're saying you're throwing a lot of things at me that I have to try to understand what they are. Yes. Yeah. Basically. I think of it as a grenade. That just. I don't know. Similar, I guess. Yeah. It's just some type of explosive. It's a wartime incendiary, obviously. Obviously. And that's what he thinks it is, especially. Especially. Especially. when they find this rubber, this weird rubber thing that she thinks could have been what hit the roof. Authorities never accepted this theory, but to the sodders, it became another reason to question whether the blaze had truly been accidental. And the list of oddities continued to grow. In 1947, George and Jenny wrote directly to the Federal Bureau of Investigation,

hoping federal involvement might bring clarity. The response came from FBI director Jay Edgar Hoover himself. While Hoover expressed sympathy, he explained that the case appeared to be a local matter and fell outside the Bureau's jurisdiction. FBI agents offered assistance only if local authorities requested it, and Fayetteville Police and fire officials declined. The sodders were left once again on their own. They next hired a private investigator named C.C. Tinsley, whose findings only deepened their mistrust of the official story. Tinsley discovered that the insurance salesman who had threatened, and George months before the fire was a member of the coroner's jury that ruled the deaths accidental. The man had once worked for George and was a co-signer on the family's home insurance policy,

which he had increased shortly before the fire without the solder's knowledge or approval. Oh, and there it is. Tinsley also learned troubling information about fire chief Morris. Though Morris publicly claimed no remains had been found, he reportedly told others he had discovered a human organ in the ashes. According to the story, he placed it in a dynamite box and buried it at the site. When the sodders dug up the box and took it to a local funeral director, the supposed organ was examined and identified as beef liver untouched by the fire.

So this fire chief just like buried this weird shit on there. To be like, yeah, look, there's proof of a kid. Or so, like, I don't know. Okay, a few notes here. Why would it be in a dynamite box? First of all, why do you have a beef liver on hand and a dynamite box? So it's two things feel weird to just have immediately. But also, it just goes against their official story that there's no remains at all because they were what your liver is going to survive, but your femur bone isn't. That's so crazy. Yeah. It's like, what are you trying to do here? It doesn't make sense. Rumors followed that Morris had admitted to others that the liver had not come from the fire at all, but he had buried it deliberately an attempt to placate the family and bring the investigation to an end. Okay, what do you think they're stupid? Like, what that's so insulting to their intelligence? It's like, to a grieving family.

These are children. These are their children that you're talking about. It's just so, yeah, it's an insult to their intelligence. It's, it doesn't make any sense at all. I don't understand that line of thinking. At all. So of course, by this point, George and Jenny no longer trusted any official explanation or the people in charge. They wondered if the fire had been an act of arson meant to cover a kidnapping, possibly connected to organized crime or retaliation for George's outspoken criticism of Mussolini.

So is this all going back to Mussolini? They're thinking potentially. But the other thing is they're thinking that maybe it could have been part of a human trafficking. ring that had been watching their children because someone had seen a man watching their house and watching their children come home from school. Right. So that was another explanation. But they're kind of just pulling at straws here.

They're like, we don't have any enemies. The only, the only enemies we do have are our political beliefs against Mussolini right now, who people are, it is a really hot topic and people do feel really strongly about it. And of course, they were receiving threats. So that's kind of the only bridge they have, except for maybe possibly a human trafficking ring that they were unaware of. And they never claimed to like they knew what was happening. They were just trying to figure it out. Right.

Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank. Over the years, Leeds continued to surface. George once saw a newspaper photograph of school children in New York City and became convinced one of them was his daughter, Betty. He traveled to Manhattan in search of her, only to be turned away by the child's parents who refused to speak with him.

In August of 1949, nearly four years after the fire, the Sauters organized a new excavation of the site of their former home. This time, they brought in a pathologist from Washington, D.C., Dr. Oscar B. Hunter. The search uncovered damaged coins, a partially burned dictionary, and several small shards of bone, including four vertebrae. Hunter sent the bones to the Smithsonian Institution for analysis. The report concluded that the bones belonged to a single individual whose skeletal development suggested an age between 16 and 17, with a possible upper limit of 22. This was older than Maurice, the eldest missing Sauter child who had been 14 at the time of the fire.

And get this, the report also noted that the bones showed no sign of exposure to fire. What in the world? Okay. The age determination I would have accepted as, I mean, it's a range, right? Like, a couple years off. Yeah, you know, like he could have gone through puberty earlier than normal. You know, like it could. And it's not an existence.

exact science. Like, you know, it's just an estimation. Yeah, if this, if they were like, hey, yeah, this is a vertebrae of somebody who's showing significant signs of either disease or age that's clearly not matching. Like there are upwards of 70. Right. But the fire thing is wild. Yeah. So later other people theorized that when he brought in a bunch of beef liver. When he brought, not beef liver. When George brought in. all of the dirt to make the garden memorial for his children over the baseman the remains of the basement there. They think that maybe the dirt he brought in had the remains of someone in it. And that's where these bones are found. That's why they found these bones. It's like the theory for that because there was no sign of that they were affected by fire. That makes sense to me. But where did he get the dirt?

Should we look into that? That feels like another thing that we should pursue. They were busy. They're like, I mean, that feels like that. I hope they did some sort of follow up on that because. Yeah, I'm not sure. Now that is indicating another young person who. This is also the 40s too.

So like, who knows where he got? Yes. You know, like, who knows? Who knows what's going on here? Okay. I mean, all right. Yeah. I guess I'll let that go.

But sketchy for sure. The findings prompted hearings at the West Virginia State Capitol in Charleston. Afterwards, Governor Oakey L. Patterson and state police superintendent, W.E. Bershut, told the Sauters that their search was hopeless and declared the case closed. So you brought it back to their attention was like, hey, look at that. There's still nothing. I've had other people come in. And they're like, no, this case is closed. Your kids died here. End of story. It seems like they were just brushing them off from every, every angle. But the Sauters refused to accept that verdict. They erected a large billboard along

Route 16 near Fayetteville displaying photographs of the missing children and offering a reward for information leading to their recovery. Flyers were distributed. The reward was raised from $5,000 to $10,000 and tips poured in from across the country. And this wasn't just a small billboard. This was a massive billboard with all of their faces on it. It clearly stated missing reward. And it was very obvious that this family was.

was not saying my children died were actively, they were actively looking for them. A woman from St. Louis wrote to say Martha, one of their children, was living in a convent. A man in Texas claimed to have overheard a conversation in a bar about a Christmas Eve fire in West Virginia. Someone in Florida suggested the children were living with one of Jenny's distant relatives. George traveled tirelessly to follow each lead, always returning home without answers. In the late 1960s, more than 20 years after the fire, Jenny received an envelope postmark from Kentucky. Inside was a photograph of a young man in his mid-20s. Written on the back were the words, Louis Sauter, I love Brother Frankie, and a string of letters and numbers.

Brother Frankie was a reference to Franklin Sauter, one of the siblings who had survived the fire. The use of his nickname immediately stood out to Jenny and George, because, because it suggested that the writer knew the family personally, not just from newspaper accounts. Because I guess in all the newspapers, they had always referred to him as Franklin. So to call him Frankie was odd. And the photograph's resemblance to Lewis Sauter was striking. The same dark curly hair, the same deep set eyes, the same strong nose and slight tilt of an eyebrow. And once again, the Saughters hired a private investigator and sent him to Kentucky.

But following that, they never heard from the investigator again. This investigator, whatever he found, he either just ghosted, he either just took their money and ghosted them, or he found something in Kentucky and then either something happened to him or he was paid off to never speak to them again. Wow. Is what they're assuming. I mean, it's awful either way, but I would hope that just for his safety that he just was a dick and took their money and ran. Yeah. Fearing, after this, of course, fearing they might put their son in danger if he was truly alive, the Saughters chose not to publicize the message or the postmark.

Instead, they updated the billboard to include the photograph. So they were like, we'll put a new photo of you, but we don't want to say like how we got it in case you. in case you're in danger. George said in an interview not long before his death, it's hard sometimes to get sleep at night just wondering about them. After all, if someone wanted to get me, why did they get my family too? Unfortunately, he would never get answers. George Sauter died in 1969, still holding out hope for a break in the case.

Jenny retreated further into morning, wearing black for the rest of her life. She died in 1989 and with her death, the weathered billboard finally came down. The surviving children and grandchildren continued searching, forming theories of their own. Some believed the children had been taken by someone they knew, coaxed from the house under the promise of safety. Others believe the children were victims of organized crime or retaliation connected to George politics. Some believed they may not have survived long after the fire even if they had escaped it. Sylvia, the youngest sought her child and the baby carried from the house that night, remained convinced her siblings had escaped the flames.

She died in 2021 at the age of 79, still believing the truth had never been uncovered. Today, opinions remain divided. Some believe the children perished in the fire and that the grief led the family to search endlessly for signs of life. Others believe the sheer number of inconsistencies point to something far darker. What everyone agrees on is this. On Christmas Eve in 1945, in a small Appalachian town, now known as the gateway to wild places, a family celebrated the holiday together. Around one in the morning, a fire broke out. George and Jenny Sauter and four of their children escaped.

The other five were never seen again. And in Fayetteville, West Virginia, a town shaped by ancient rivers and long memory, the question of what happened to the Sauter children still lingers unanswered. Today, the Sauter story is part of Fayetteville's collected memory, mentions found in gift shops, shared among locals, and passed along to visitors curious about the town's history. As Fayetteville continues to draw attention for the landscape and recreation, it also carries the legacy of a family that never abandoned home. The Sauter's land was sold long ago, and the small memorial garden George built on the house's remains is no longer there. Today, a small white house now stands in the property where the Sauter home once burned. And lastly, if you or someone you know has information related to the disappearance of the five Sutter children, even something that may seem small or long forgotten, it could still matter.

Because this case has never been resolved and includes the possibility of kidnapping, tips can be submitted to the FBI using their online tip form at tips.fbi.gov or by contacting a local FBI field office. Information can also be reported directly to Fay County's sheriff office in West Virginia, where the fire occurred and where the original investigation was conducted. In cases like this, new details can surface decades later, and every lead deserves careful consideration. And that is my story of the Sutter family. Wow. It's nuts for obvious reasons, but also because I can't help but think, you know, five kids, assuming that they were kidnapped because it feels like that it feels like that's the most

logical explanation given everything that you have laid out to have five kids together especially under strange circumstances or if they're acting strange or seem out of place that's something that people will notice and unless they were broken up from one another shortly thereafter like i doubt that they were all kept together because that seems like a risky decision to be made from a kidnapper's perspective to keep everybody together. But also like the oldest one was what 14? You said? Yeah.

A teenager who something must have happened where I guess my question to you is do you think that they were kept alive? I think it's really hard to know because what we've seen in other cases is that eyewitness. eyewitness accounts aren't always real. And, you know, I think a lot of place, a lot of people get tips that just don't lead anywhere. So I don't know if any of these tips really are valid or not. You know, when you talk about the woman who saw an Italian family with five children, it could have just been an Italian family with five children who were having a bad day.

You know, or it could have been something. You know, she saw the pictures and she thought it could be those children. so it could certainly. I think, I don't know. I don't see why you would kidnap children. If you're trying to get back at him, I don't know why you would, I don't know. It's just, it's such a dark place to do that to children. I think that it's possible that either they were, they had weapons and they subdued the children

and got them to leave the house or that it could have been someone they knew, which was why they went willingly. Because, I mean, there was no sounds. They didn't wake up to kids screaming. They didn't wake up. Like, you know, there was no evidence for the parents of them leaving the house. If they were kept alive or not, I don't know. Because I just don't know why they would take the children in the first place.

Correct. Yeah. I also, I'm curious about that. But just for me, I feel like. It would be, and of course, there's a lot of anything can happen, especially with a child. I mean, whether you're 14 or you're still a kid, you know, with brainwashing and whatever other manipulation tactics there or threats of violence that could have been, you know, could have been done. But for me, it's like that 14 year old child has memories of their family and their siblings and their life. And then to just think that they've never, unless that one picture was the one effort that they made, you know, snuck it out.

To be like I'm alive. Yeah. But to like not say anything to literally anyone or attempt to make contact with your family again or run away or whatever. And I'm not trying to like be like victim blame me of like, why didn't you do that? It's just suspicious to me that none of the children at any point in time to our knowledge. tried to do anything like that. But as far as like out of the house and not causing commotion or whatever, maybe they had all stayed up later like they said they were going to do, hung out together and they were all in the same area and then all eventually, you know, fell asleep or whatever without

going to their beds. You know, Christmas Eve, you kind of just conk out, especially if you're kids and you're upling and you just like pass out. But if someone got into the house and like chloroformed them or something or drug, you know, like. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't have to wake them and drag them out of the house. They could have done it in a different way that I don't know. Yeah. I feel like whatever, I am with the Sutter family where I think, I don't know what, but I feel like something darker was at play here.

I think that if all five of their children had died in the fire, I think that there would have been a lot more evidence of that. I think, I mean, especially with a count saying that the fire, started downstairs and if the children were upstairs, you would think you would see them in the windows or you would, unless smoke inhalation or I don't know, there's just so many inconsistencies and just the fact that there's no evidence of their deaths. Yeah. I think is the part that makes me feel like something else happened. But what I just don't know. I do think that that photo later on, I think that it could have been a joke. It could have been a,

a really bad prank that someone sent them. But the fact that they saw the photo and thought it resembled their son makes me not think that. Do you know anything about you said there was like numbers and letters and stuff? What was that about? Not sure. I didn't know if it was some sort of attempt at a code. I don't know if it was like a code or something. Yeah, I'm not sure.

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like just with everything that you said, I feel like they were kidnapped. Yeah. And in my opinion, I would love to hear from people like listeners who work in fire or have any sort of professional insight into if that seems suspicious to you as well and not just two people who learned about me who learned about it in, you know, the last hour, you know, but just people who have experience with whether or not that circumstance is as far. fetched as it actually appears to us and seems to us or if there's something that we're missing or that is like, oh, this actually could happen. You know, I would just, I would love to know that. But yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's an enduring mystery for a reason. And it's because of all

these little things that are all when you look at it and zoom out, taking into account everything, it feels very suspicious. It does. And my first thoughts thinking of, well, why would they, why would they kidnap the kids and burn the house down. My thought is that they were trying to kidnap the kids and then kill the rest of the family. So there was a bunch of remains. And it was like, oh, they all died to avoid suspicion. And I feel like the plan didn't go as they wanted when half of the family escaped. Right. And not only the, you know, there's a bunch of other in their plan that there would be a lot of other victims and kind of maybe investigators would just write it off at that and just kind of count everyone is deceased. But so that there's no follow. Like,

there's nobody left to ask questions. A kidnapping. Yeah. Yeah. No one's going to care about where these children are because their parents aren't alive and their family is not around to ask. The only person who would have been alive still is the one brother who wasn't even in the home. Yes. But God, yeah, regardless of what happened or not, like to those, whether it was a kidnapping or they did. Like, that's just so devastating. statingly awful for that family. The parents and the siblings, included. And to die not knowing, ever knowing what happened to your children. Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired, mostly. But she went to Carbana.com and found a

great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required. Did you have to find a dragon? Nope. She bought it 100% online, from her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as Carbara. could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. Well, because I was such a rough Christmas episode and dark, I wanted to end it with I have a bunch of Patreon questions. Oh, and I added some holiday themed ones in here for us to answer and be a little bit more fun. at the end. If you like the dark and you're good ending there, then we'll see you next time. But if you want to listen to some Patreon questions, I thought I'd bring up the mood a little bit.

Okay. That's helpful. Okay. First Patreon question is favorite Christmas or holiday memory. Can you go first? Yeah. Okay. So mine, it's not actually a memory that I had. It's a video of me. and I didn't know that I did this, but now I think it's really funny. I don't know if it's my favorite memory ever, but it's just at the top of my mind. But I watched a VHS video of me as a kid opening presents on Christmas, and it was so funny and kind of like, it isn't in endearing because it's me and my brother opening presents. And my brother is like going crazy. He's just like ripping everything apart, like trying to get his next thing. And I, each time I get a present, I pick it up.

and I open it and I'm like, thank you so much. I always wanted this. And then for some of it, I'm like, what is it? And every single present I open, it's the same thing. I'm like, thank you so much. I always wanted this. What is it? And it can be the smallest thing. It's like, it's like a pair of gloves. I'm like, thank you. I always, always wanted this. This is the best. And I'm just like so happy. And I just think it's really cute. That is cute. And it feels, Very you. Like haven't changed. Nope.

Mine would probably be, I don't know if it's like, it's something that comes to mind as very memorable. I was, I don't know how old I was. I must have been in middle school or like freshman in high school. Like I was young. But my mom and my stepdad got me a, or got me and my sister. It was the most surprised, I think I've ever been at a gift. and it was they had packed suitcases with like different things and it was basically a way of giving us a gift of a trip to Key West.

Oh, fun. And I was just really surprised by that and taking it back by that. Yeah. So that was a cool holiday memory. And that was, I loved that trip to Key. It's funny too because it just seemed like a very, I don't know what the motivation behind going me Key West was. There must have been something that maybe I was unaware of. But it just felt like very a random place for us to go. It's not like we're like Florida people. Like we don't. Yeah.

It was like it was something special. Yeah. That was the first time, first and only time I went to see Robert the doll and like did a haunted Key West thing. And yeah. And here you are. Here I am. And yeah. And once you years later. Okay. The next Patreon question is what's your favorite holiday tradition you don't want to lose? Oh my God. You've had time to think about these. I'm just in the moment. I know I didn't tell you. Yeah. Fucked on. You're like, I have come prepared. A tradition I don't want to lose. Okay. I feel like this is kind of easy for me. And it's nothing like crazy, unique or anything. But my grandparents on my mom's side always had a family holiday party. And my family, so it's like my mom, her sister, her brother, and their children. And like that was, you know. And just over the years, when I was growing up, it was like the thing.

All our, the cousins were stoked to see each other. And it was just like the adults would get drunk on hard eggnog. And we would do. Like the best. Secret Santa. And like, it was just a whole thing. And it was super fun. It was something we, me and my cousin Molly are especially close.

But even beyond just us, we were always really excited to see our extended family. We don't get together very much. And that was just kind of the time to do that. And yeah, over the years, especially when I moved away and I was living out of state, I didn't always get to come back. And my grandpa is no longer with us. And my grandmother is quite sick. And it's just changed, you know, and some people are like, oh, I can't make it this

year and it's tough, you know, but I think that now that my cousins are having families of their own and small children and like my sister has her child. Start happening again. Yeah, I think we're going to ramp it up again a little bit, you know, and kind of breathe some new life into it and a different version of it. And I don't want to lose that. And I hope that's something that we can continue in a new way. Yeah.

I love that. That actually made me think of my family for the past. I want to say past five or six years. It hasn't been a long time tradition that's been going on, but we've been doing Yankee swaps. I want to say for the past five or six years. And it's really fun because we have been, my family's been really good about either finding something really funny or finding something that is very much their own niche because they made it.

I have a lot of people in my family that are really creative and artists. so they'll actually make their own, their own things for these Yankee swaps. And it's been, it's been really fun. And also my family is really cutthroat at Yankee swap because, you know, you pick your number. If you, you'll take someone else's. There's no apologies. Like, it's so cutthroat and funny. Which, by the way, for everyone, we call it Yankee Swap here, but I think it goes by

white elephant everywhere else. What? I know. I've never heard white. What does that even mean? It's the same game. White elephant? Yeah.

I mean, I guess Yankee were in the north. Yeah. I'm telling you. Because I remember someone explaining white elephant to me. I'm like, oh, you mean Yankee swap? And they're like, what is that? So I just want to. That's so weird to me.

Yeah. I just wanted to make that out. But I'm glad you clarified for anyone listening who does white elephant. Actually, there is the last time I did Yankee swap, we did a theme. we did a theme because it gets hard, especially when you have, I feel like you have, I know a lot of people are like, there's a $25 cap or like this is, it's amongst family or if there's co-workers or whatever, it gets, it can kind of get hard, especially when you have people with varying interests or you have children and then also somebody who's 75 years old. It's like, yeah, what do you get?

You know, like what is the theme here? That's a whole trading thing. I know, but it's fun. Actually, there's an ornament behind me. It's like a little glass pane. has an owl painted on it, that was one of my Yankee swap finds or wins. Good. Because we did an ornament themed one. Oh, that's cool. I like that. So people went crazy, but they were all ornaments, you know?

That's really fun. So just like different themes and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. That's a good question. I like that question.

Okay. Veering slightly away from holidays. what is the most unhinged name you ever saw for a pet when you were working in vet med, or the funniest? Oh, my God. Wow. That's so crazy. You asked me about vet med right now. I had the most vivid dream last night of holding a cat for an IV catheter, like for somebody to be placing it.

And I was the holder. And I was like, I don't want to do this. They're going to bite me. And I was like, I'm like, why am I doing this? I've done this enough. And I hated holding cats for IV catheters because you can't muzzle them. No. I mean, there are cat muzzles, but they don't really work.

And their claws are out. And if they're on drugs and they're freaking out. And it's just, it's hard to. Yeah. You like can't scruff up. It's, it's anyway. So anyway, yeah, vet med. Happy memories.

Most unhinged name. God, there's been so many. What was? There was one name. Princess Geneva, I remember. There was another Her Royal Majesty something. Oh. She was a golden retriever and she was super old. Yes.

Her royal majesty. It was like six. It was like six names. I know. And I used to just call her Herm. Because it was always HRM. She was called her Herm. Her Royal Majesty.

Princess Bubbles was one. Princess Bubbles. I really, this one was not unhinged, but it was cute. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, Tia Maria bubbles. I remember, wasabi. I just thought was a really cute name. Well, you liked wasabi as I did. The animal, yeah. Yeah. God. This wasn't in vet med, but I remember one time there's a at the Bear Creek dog park in Colorado Springs. I'll never forget it. It's a huge off-leash dog park, like acres. Like people would sometimes tie bandanas to their dogs and be like, don't. worry my owner's here somewhere and just let them go. Because you don't, they could be off. Yeah. You know. But anyway, there was this person who's just yelling, trying to find their dog. And its name, it was tuna. So they were just yelling tuna super loud for so long. My tuna is not coming.

Okay. Stop screaming. Like, tuna. And eventually, it was a little Boston, black and white Boston Terrier. And they came up. Tuna. That's bad. I'm like, that's bad, Duna. I like, I like dogs with people names. Yeah, I don't know. Something about a dog named Kevin. Just, you're yelling for Kevin and a Yorkshire Terrier comes around a corner. It's just, it's hilarious.

I had two foster puppies for literally like two days because Chaska hated them and I had to bring them back. they were tiny and they were named after spaghetti or pastas and one was named Gemalini and God Gemma Gemalini and something else but they were pastas and they're really cute I like food names too I don't know it's been a while it's been so long since we've had it has been a while yeah well the next question was do you like pugs why would you ask me that I okay here's the thing there have been very, very few animals of any species that I have truly disliked as like an individual, you know, despite how I feel about their breed or whatever.

Like, I could be like, oh, calico cats suck. Like, they're scary and mean. But, like, I don't know not like you. I still like him. I still like you. I just wouldn't want to be in a room with you, you know, or care for you for your life. Doing medical. Yeah, right. And that's kind of how I feel about pugs. Like, I've never met a pug that I dislike. I think that every animal, there's something to like about them unless there's only one that really comes to mind that I was like this. It was like it should have been behaviorally euthanized immediately. It was that bad. And it eventually did get euthanized for behavior stuff after two years. It was only two years old. Oh, my God. That's really, really rough. Yeah. I just don't.

there's just so many medical, there's so many medically wrong things with pugs that I just feel really bad for them. And I don't want to ruffle any feathers with people who love pugs because people go hard for pugs. But it's just from, again, a medical standpoint and just all of the problems they have in their, like people think it's cute that they snort and stuff. It's like they can't fucking breathe. It is cute, though. It's not. Imagine that in your little snorts in their making little noises and they're running around with their little curly tails. I don't stand by that, but. I like bugs.

Their eyes, we always have to do anuculation. Their eyes fall out. Their eyes fall out. It's crazy. Like, they should not be bred. Ethically. From an ethical standpoint. No.

But from like a cute squishy point of view? Yes. I like them. Yeah. Okay. Danielle, I looked up a song. You said you love. Don't Fence Me In and it's a song I'll always keep. Tell me more music you love.

So Don't Fence Me In is a song that, strangely enough, ties back to my grandparents that I was just talking about with the Christmas party. The first time I ever heard it was in a national park on the same national park trip that inspired this entire podcast. Oh, look at that. So it was a family trip to Yellowstone when I was in high school. And that's when I bought the death in Yellowstone book and all that. And my grandparents were singing this song. And I'm like, what the heck is this? And it's titled, Don't Fence Me In.

It's a very old-timey song. It's been done a few times by other artists, but they're all old-timey artists. Like, that's how old the song is. So it's not like anybody within the last probably two decades have redone it. So just bear that in mind if you want to listen to it. but the lyrics are so, it's all about like not being contained or fenced in by other people and they just want to be, you know, just drop me to my saddle and let me ride out west and be my myself and be free. And, you know, it's just, I love it. It hits hard. It's one of my favorite

songs. My mom sends it to me on my birthday every single year, like a recording of it or whatever. So what is your other music taste? Kygo. Fence me in and Kaigo. Bing Crosby and Cuygo Thank you for that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't listen to a ton of music. And Cardi B.

Fends me in Cigo and Wop. I contain multitudes. I have become a Swifty recently. Me too. Did you watch her documentary came out the other day? Did you watch it? Yeah, I watched it. Did you?

No, I'm saving it. Forlic and Cozianided. It's emotional. It's emotional. Yeah. Yeah. I really liked it. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Cool. Yeah. I've become more of a, I don't want to say I'm a Swifty because I feel like I'm not that. Like I don't know enough. And I haven't been around enough. But I like this album. I like her. I just, yeah. Yeah. I hope she. I feel sad because I feel like I missed out on a on a tour that will never happen again. And was like a once in a, truly a once in a lifetime tour. And she does something big. which I don't know how that would she might be able to. Speaking of music, I'm waiting.

And this should be included in my very short list, Eminem. I've been a diehard Eminem person forever. My locker in eighth grade plastered with his pictures, just like that's all it was. And I know he's been resurfacing lately, I think, because he has some new music, but also because him and 50 are like really, you know, they're kind of like a package deal and 50 just released the whole. Yeah, they're taking down. Diddy right now too. Yeah. They're going after Diddy and as they should. And I don't know. I just think that Eminem has he's done some, I think everyone has, especially in that world has done some things that are not great. But I think that I just, I really like him. I like his music. I think, uh, I just like it a lot. I'm just reflecting back to like, I'm like, yeah, he's so great. And then in my mind, the lyrics of, I'm a kill you are in my brain, which aren't great. Yeah.

Anyway. Okay. One more question. If national parks were cocktails, what would your favorite park taste like? So what's our favorite cocktail? Is that the question, essentially? Well, if national, what's your favorite national park and what would that cocktail taste like? I feel like mine would have like a cedar sage.

Gin. I don't like gin, though. Oh, that's like more pine, right? Yeah, cedar, sage, cranberries. Cranberries. Or maybe I'm just thinking of Christmas now. You're thinking of your simmer pot right now. You're literally.

Smells great in you. Hmm, that's tough because my favorite cocktail, my go-to cocktail is a tequila sour, a true tequila sour. Not sour mix with tequila, which also is. is not quite a margarita, but it's not a true tequila sour. But if you ask for tequila sour, a lot of times they'll serve you that, which is not the right thing. Pisco showers are really good. Pisco showers are good. Those were great. Yeah. I actually just went to a speakeasy in Gatlinburg, which was actually really nice. That was like the one thing that we were both very surprised by. But it's a coffee shop during the day. And then they take you through this

fake freezer at night. And it's a full-blown speakeasy. And it's super nice. But they sold me or they gave me the tequila sour that wasn't quite a tequila sour. So I'm upset about that. But where you took me for my birthday, Yvonne's in Boston, they had really good drinks. Their drinks were super good. Yeah, they were really good. I feel like you don't drink enough. to have like a cocktail that you could, neither do I. I'm like, oh, it would definitely be this for this park. Yeah, I just don't know them very much because I don't drink really. Well, what's your favorite alcohol? Calua. Whatever doesn't taste like alcohol, Bailey's, Calua. Yeah. Your go-to is espresso martinis. Yeah, espresso martini, which is funny because I don't

drink coffee, really. I mean, occasionally I do, but not really. Yeah. So what? So what? What park would you say that would go for? Like that would go with that. Espresso martini. Espresso martini. I don't know. It feels a little fancy but cozy. Yeah. Elevated but cozy. Maybe like Denali. Ooh.

Like you can picture yourself like drinking an espresso martini like in a log can. While looking at. Well, it's wintery outside and. Ganoly, yeah. For sure. Okay. Okay. There you go. Where would you drink your tequila sour? I'll drink a tequila sour. anywhere.

Feels tropical to me. Feels tropical. Maybe like the U.S. Virgin Islands. Okay. Or foreign apart. For some reason I was picturing you in dry tortugas. Oh, because there's history. Yeah.

Well, there's history. There's so much history there and then you'd be with your tequila sour. Yeah. Overlooking the old prison. Yeah. Yeah. Good times. Lovely.

Perfect. But okay, well, thanks for gathering those. That was a nice way to end because I felt like I was just going to walk away from this depressed. Yeah. Well, happy holidays, everyone. If you are celebrating whatever you're doing this Christmas, Hanukkah, all the holidays, whatever it is you celebrate. We hope you're having a wonderful time of year. We know this is kind of like a slowdown period.

So we appreciate you hanging out with us still. And we'll see you next time. Well, until next time, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories,

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