National Park After Dark - Never. Give. Up: Angeles National Forest

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

When a small Cessna went down in the San Gabriel Mountains in February 1979, eleven-year-old Norman Ollestad was thrust into a fight for his life. Stranded in a blizzard on alpine terrain more than 8,500 feet up, he drew on the skills and grit he’d learned from his father to make his way out.For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to the week’s partners!SelectQuote: Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for YOU, for LESS, and save more than fifty percent at selectquote.com/npadHello Fresh: Use our link to get up to 10 FREE meals and a free item for life.Smalls: For a limited time only, get 60% off your first order PLUS free shipping when you head to Smalls.com/npad.BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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A father can be many things to a child. A protector, teacher, rival, friend. Sometimes he is a source of comfort, other times a source of pressure. And sometimes he is both at the same time. The voice of a father can echo long after he's gone, shaping how his child faces the world. For Norman Olistad, the voice belonged to a man who believed in testing the limits. Norman's father was restless, adventurous, and thrill-seeking. He was unwilling to let life be ordinary.

From the time Norman could stand on skis or balance on a surfboard, his father pushed him into the waves, up the slopes, through the fear. He called him Boy Wonder, and believed that facing your fears, and facing the unknown was the only way to grow. At 11 years old, Norman often resented it. He didn't always want to be pushed into freezing water or down a dangerous ski run. But when the moment came that would define Norman's life and threatened his own survival, it was his father's words that he held on to.

Never give up. Welcome to National Park After Dark. Hello everyone and welcome back to National Park After Dark. My name is Danielle. And I'm Cassie. I feel like it's been a while since we've recorded. I was going to say it feels a little strange being here, clocking in for our jobs. And I know as a listener it probably doesn't feel that way because we do our best to make sure we're ahead of things and always putting out content with only two weeks off a year. But one of those weeks off was recently for Cassie's wedding.

And we just front-loaded so much. And now we're finally back in a routine and a groove. And it just like this is the first time we've sat down and recorded. in a long time. Yeah. Yeah. It feels good to be back. I'm ready.

I mean, it was fun. I did get married, which is exciting. Whole new person now. I'm a wife now. Is anything different? I wouldn't say it's super different. I think the only thing that feels, I feel like we're kind of in this very loving phase right now. Like the honeymoon phase.

Yeah, it's like the honeymoon phase right now, I guess. And I think just after having a wedding surrounded by all of our loved ones and saying our vows to each other and stuff, I just think that we have almost this more love and appreciation for each other. So we're kind of in that phase. But as far as our relationship, it would be like, wow, everything's so different now. Now we're married. It's kind of like, all right, now we're really doing life together. Yeah. Like officially on paper.

Yeah. officially he has to get a lawyer to get rid of me. Right. So that probably feels great. It does. It's really nice. And if people, I guess if people are interested in hearing more about my wedding, we did talk about it pretty in depth on an outsider only episode.

That's going to be coming out or probably just. When are we releasing that? It's coming out sometime right now. Just look for it. It'll be, if you're listening on Apple, it's always posted there or head over to Patreon. on and yeah yeah well I will say that I'm so happy that you wore that second dress oh my god and I know we just said we weren't we're not going to talk about your wedding here we already did that for subscription just for a moment just for a moment and oh to the dress and I'm not a big dress person

like I'm not a big fashion look at me I'm wearing all black like I could care less really about fashion and it's not really my thing and getting dressed up isn't really my thing, but you looked so phenomenal. And like, because I've seen the dress before. I'd seen photos of it, sketches of it as it was being made for you. But seeing like the complete look with you in it. And it was just like you made that dress and you just look so amazing. Thank you.

I appreciate that so much because I've just been staring at pictures of me in that dress for like days. It's the best dress I've ever seen in my whole life. Okay, well, you have to say a little bit about it now, I guess, because you didn't just walk into like David's bridle and get this. Not to call out David's bridle, but you know what I mean. It was a custom-made dress. So I already bought my wedding dress long before I found this dress, actually.

And I bought my wedding dress. It's a classic white dress that had, um, 3D flowers on it and it had a really long train and was dramatic and I really I really liked it. But then I was on Instagram one day and this post, I kept seeing this post of this couple who had just gotten married and this woman was wearing the dress of my dreams. It's like I had never seen a dress that looked like this before. Her wedding looked beautiful and I see a picture of her and the dress and I don't see the creator credited. anywhere in the post. So I'm searching the thousands of comments on this trying to find the

creator tagged in it because I just loved the dress so much. And sure enough, they were on there. Her name is Sylvie F-C-O-N. It's a French name, so I might be pronouncing it wrong. It's F-A-C-O-N. But she is in France, and I, her page is absolutely incredible and her Instagram is amazing. And I was going through her website and all of her stuff. And, I was looking at this website for weeks. And eventually I was like, I have to reach out to her. She's create, I already had my wedding dress, but this is my dream dress. I didn't even know existed. And I finally sent her an email. And I was like, hey, my wedding's in September. This was in end of June. I was like, I know that this is probably a long shot, but I am so in

love with your work. Is there any room for me? And she said, I just had a bride move her wedding to next year. So I just had a spot open up. And the stars aligned. I was like, please, please, please. And we just started collaborating and talking over email about what I envisioned for my dress. And I wanted, she specializes in these floral designs that she embroideres and tool. And it's just, it's absolutely incredible. And we started talking and I was like, I would really love the flowers that I have in my own garden and that I grow here. So she, she, she. I told her the list of the flowers and all of the flowers embroidered on my dress are ones that I actually have at my house, which is really, really special and cool. And she drew sketches for me and then she showed me pictures along the way as she was creating it.

And I sent her all of, because I didn't go in person, but I sent her all of my measurements and she sent the dress to me. She got it to me the end of August. And it was just a week to spare. A week to spare. And it was just the prettiest, most beautiful dress. I want to wear it every day. I considered moving it to my ceremony dress, but I had already gotten a wedding dress and you can't return those. I had already had it altered everything. And so I was like, you know, I'm going to wear my wedding dress for a quick ceremony. And then I'm changing immediately into this dress. And it did. And it was

and it made more sense, too, to have a giant train. And the dress was heavy. It was hard. to walk in. I mean, and this dress was flowy and fun and beautiful. And I knew I did it right because when I got to the reception, there were all these rumors going around about my dress. I don't know if you heard the rumors. Yeah, there were rumors going around and I was talking to, you know that you did a dress right when there's rumors at your wedding about what you're wearing. And I'm going around and you're like, I heard that those flowers are from your garden, stitched in from your garden. And I was, It's like, what? Oh, those details are out and about.

Yeah. It's not just like, oh, she's going to be wearing another dress and it's whatever. Yeah, people thought that they were real flowers that were embroidered on my dress. Oh, okay. And then there was a rumor going around that I went to France and grew a garden. You know what? Okay. ...enbroidered onto my dress.

Hold on a minute. I can't say for sure where these room. originated from. I probably can. Can you? Because based on what you're saying to me and how like kind of, it's like yes, a little bit, but also way off. Yeah.

There's like a little bit of truth in there, but it's not, not accurate. I feel like, okay, what do you think before I say it? What do I think of who spread it? Yeah. I think it was a combination of people, but I would guess some people on our side of the family. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. Why? Who did you think? No, it's fine. It doesn't matter. But okay. Yeah, great. It was amazing. And also, last, last thing, because I know people are always like, please stop talking before the actual story, which I can appreciate. But this is a big moment in Cassie's life. So suck it up. And I'm going to post pictures on our regular feed on our National Park After Dark Feed of my dress also. just because you guys should see it.

And also, like, Cassie loves this designer so much that she was even sending me photos of different dresses that she had created out of books, like pages of books. Oh, my God. She has a whole library section where she creates dresses out of the spines of books. And she makes dresses look like pages. And this woman is just so incredibly talented. talented. I have never, I'm kind of the same with you, Danielle, where fashion has never really caught my eye or like been a thing for me. But her dresses are pure artwork. It is crazy.

You look at them and they are just, you're in a garden, you're in a fairyland, you're in a, you're a book. I mean, it is just, she's so, so talented. I've never seen anything like it. So I am just so thankful that she had time and could do it. And she was so wonderful. And yeah, If you're looking for a wedding dress that is unique and beautiful, I can't. I don't know if she is time. And tailored to you. And tailored to you. Yes.

I don't know if she is time. I don't know what her availability looks like. But, God, reach out to her because she's amazing. Well, you better not forget to post in this, like when this comes out in two weeks. Because. Yeah, I'll have to make a post today and schedule it. Yeah. Because people are going to be.

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Watch only on Prime. Okay, well, moving on to your story, you did, I know very little about it other than the intro you just shared and right when we sat down you're like just be ready this story is incredibly sad yes so we're taking a left turn here this story is very sad um god it was so sad um just reading it but this story i'm going to be telling a survival story which is always my favorite to tell and that still holds true um but this one is kind of a lot more than that I really loved this story because it's more of an ode to a father-son relationship or a father-child relationship. And it really explores how instrumental fathers are to their children and the lessons that they take from having them in their life.

But it's also, I mean, it's a really heartbreaking episode that confronts guilt, grief, sadness, and it's in complicated relationships. So even though it is a survival story, it is also just, it feels more. of it's more of a human story. Just human relationship story. And I knew that going into this because I saw, I forget how I came across this. I was trying to find some type of topic. And I was looking for places to go. Oh, the topic of survival, which is my favorite. And I've done so many times. Let's do this one. And of course, I found a book. And the book is called Crazy for the Storm, a memoir of survival by Norman Allestead, who the story is about today. Okay.

So let's jump into it. And, of course, as a plane crash because I'm terrified of planes. So. As we're about to get on one. I think I like plane crash stories of survival because I'm like, there's a chance. So you're saying there's a chance. Yeah. Okay.

Going into the story, Norman Olistad was born in 1967 in Southern California. The kind of place where the ocean, the mountains, and the deserts all collars. within a few hours drive. His parents divorced when he was a child and Norman lived primarily with his mother and her boyfriend Nick, but his father, Norman Olistad Sr., remained a constant presence in his life. Norman Sr. was an avid surfer in the Topango Beach area near Malibu, but he wasn't your run-of-the-mill SoCal Dad. He was a former FBI agent, joining in 1960 at the age of 25, and quickly gaining a reputation for discipline and sharp instincts. But quickly, he realized he dismalized he disagreed with how the FBI was run, finding them hypocritical and inefficient, and he quit

after just one year. Following that, he actually published a book about his experience criticizing his whole ordeal there, and he titled it inside the FBI that did not sit well with his colleagues at all. Really? He kind of did a tell-all of, yeah. This is why I don't agree with how the FBI works, and people were not, we're not thrilled. It ruffled some feathers, for sure. It was after leaving, the FBI that Norman Sr. moved to Topanga Beach, where he became a lawyer and became almost obsessive in his passion for surfing and skiing. Above all, he was a man who craved adventure. He was tall, charismatic, and restless, the kind of person who looked at boundaries as invitations to push harder. Friends and colleagues described him as brilliant but impulsive,

a thrill seeker who refused to let life be small. And he brought that same intensity into fatherhood. From the time that Norman Olistide could walk, his father had him on skis. By three years old, he was zipping down double black diamond slopes many adults wouldn't dare to attempt. And at age four, he was surfing the waves of Malibu. His father called him Boy Wonder, convinced that his son was destined for greatness. I will say that's how you raise a cool kid. It is. I know.

You just grow up cool. You're bound for great things, you know, if you're like I do it all already as a child. And it just kind of also instills this type of like boldness or fearlessness. with doing things like that at such a young age. And totally. I know different people view cool in different lights. I mean, we think that surfing and skiing and all that is pretty rad. Especially because I can't do it.

It's not because it's like, oh, because I do this. I think it's cool. I can't stand up. I've never surfed once. I've tried surfing and I like almost drowned. Yeah. Yeah, you're going to do it soon. But imagine if you started young, you'd be way cooler.

I know, but hold on a minute, me, aren't you going to take a lesson with me in Hawaii? Yeah, I will, but I will probably almost drown. I'm not a great timer. The waves, I've done it once in Hawaii already, and I tell you, it was a struggle for me to even get past the break of the waves. I was just getting hit with waves and drowning, so it'll be something to look at, that's for sure. So we're, moral of the story, we're upset with our fathers for not teaching us to surf younger. Yeah. Or ski.

Dad. Wherever you are. I'm mad. When I see kids, when I'm on the mountain, I can snowboard now and I consider myself to be like, I would say a good snowboarder, not a great snowboarder. I'm not like doing tricks and all that stuff. But I'm a decent snowboarder now. And it took me years to get here. And I didn't start until my twomber.

Juanis and kids rip down the mountain. There are kids that are way better snowboarders than me. Still, even now that I consider myself a good snowboarder, they are like significantly better than me and like bomb past me and they're going over jumps. And I'm just getting into the woods now for the first time over the past two years. So I mean, hey, that's leaps and bounds in front of me. You could have been. I always think I would love to know what people like if you want to like, I don't know, comment wherever you're listening to this. if you can, what you wish your parents would have exposed you to or taught you as a child. Because no matter how great your upbringing is and how proud of the person you are today

because of that or in spite of that is, I think we can all be like, damn, I wish I did this or learned this. I wish I was, and it's not through a fault of my parents, but I wish I would have been exposed to or stuck with learning a foreign language when I was a child. Yeah, me too. And that's not my parents' fault either because neither of them are bilingual. And the school is like, hey, you know you're 17, you should probably start to learn the basics of Spanish. It's like, what? That should have been started in like second grade. First grade, second grade, kindergarten. It should have been. But it's funny though, because even when, so we started foreign language in second, not second grade seventh grade and i think back to my foreign language classes then and i still remember

the stuff that i learned in that class i still remember pretty significantly today and i'm like my brain was still sponge i still had a chance view had just like kept making me do it because they had us do it in seventh and eighth grade but then once you got to high school they didn't make us do it anymore it was an elective yeah it was like okay why yeah other other schools around the world I mean, if you go to Europe, I mean, they're taught English in school from a very young age. That's why everyone there speaks English. And there are like three other languages. We could do an entire season dedicated on the failures of the U.S. education system through no fault of the teachers, by the way.

Just a systemic issue. Yeah. But anyway, regardless. Norman's cool because. Norman's cool. End of story. cool. Norman Senior and Norman Jr. are both cool because they do cool stuff. But Norman's father wasn't interested in these activities as just fun hobbies. He was constantly looking for the next

extreme. He believed that the only way for his son to grow, to meet his full potential as boy wonder, was to confront fear head on. He would push Norman into the crashing waves of the Cold Pacific, whether he wanted to surf or not. He would drop him at the top of an icy ski run and insist he make his way down on his own. He entered Norman in ski races against much older kids, sent him chasing waves and storms, and forced him to join a hockey team where he had to keep up with bigger, faster boys. It's no surprise that Norman as a child had mixed feelings about all of it. Part of him shared his father's love for adrenaline and sense of being capable of things most other kids couldn't even dream of. But part of him resented his father's constant push to

conquer extremes. Sometimes he just wanted to relax, stay home, and watch TV. like the other kids, but his father was restless. And sometimes this led to genuinely dangerous and terrifying situations. Like one time in Alta, Utah, when Norman's dad made him ski off groom trails during a lightning storm because there was great powder. Norman specifically asked if they could just stick to the regular run, but his dad insisted. Norman ended up buried upside down in a snowbank. His dad eventually found him and pulled him out, but for a stretch of time, he truly feared he would freeze to death. At the time, he was only nine. years old. And his father's response was, that was gnarly Allostead. How about that powder?

Okay. I'm not a parent. But you know when a kid like hits their head and there's a moment, like they bang their head on the edge of the coffee table or something. Yeah. And there's a moment where they look to you for like, is this okay or should I be upset? Yeah. Am I okay? And yeah, depending on how you react, if you're like, oh my God, are you? okay, they'll burst down into tears. Or if you're like, no problem, you're fine anyway. And they're like, oh, okay, unless they're genuinely hurt. Yeah. I feel like there's something about making light of it. Making light of it or just like, I don't know, just making this environment of like, I don't know. Making it less scary. Like it's okay. Like, yeah. I don't know. Lightning storm is pretty scary. Yeah. Buried in snow and a lightning storm is pretty sketchy. Yeah. But I get that. the vibe if that's what he was going for.

It's all for the powder. Yeah. While he faced the elements with his father, he was facing a different danger at home with his mother's boyfriend, Nick. Nick was violent and often drunk. He bullied Norman, taunted him as destined to fail, and at times turned physically violent towards both Norman and his mother. With a Nick, Norman was told he would never amount to anything, and with his father,

he was told he could achieve anything. And between those two extremes, he was. grew up caught between conflicting expectations and fears. In his memoir, Crazy for the Storm, which he published in 2009, he describes his father Norman Sr. as both his tormentor and his greatest champion. It also gave young Norman a set of skills and instincts far beyond his years. He learned how to read the ocean and the snow, how to breathe through panic, how to endure cold and exhaustion. His father would remind him, never give up. It wasn't just advice for sports, it was a philosophy drilled into him with every wave, every fall, every scraped knee, and bruised rib.

By the time Norman was 11 years old in 1979, he had already experienced more risk and triumph than many people would in their entire lifetime. But the greatest test of his young life still lay ahead. He was about to face a challenge far beyond anything he could have ever imagined, a challenge that would come to define his life. On the morning of February 19, 1979, Norman and his father were headed to the mountains. Norman had just won the Southern California Slalom Skiing Championship the day before and was about to be awarded a trophy at Big Bear at a popular ski resort community in the San Bernardino Mountains. And if you don't know what the slalom skiing is, it's you've probably seen it if you've been at a ski mountain before. It's when they have those poles set up for skiers and they have to zip around. them like the quick turns back and forth and it's downhill skiing and you have to do it fast. So that's what he won because he had been the fastest.

His father, who was 43 years old at the time, had chartered a small plane for the occasion. It was a Cessna 172, a four-seat aircraft that could easily hop over mountain ridges. And the other two seats were the pilot, Rob Arnold, and Norman's father's girlfriend, 30-year-old Sander Cressman. The four of them boarded the Cessna at Santa Monica Airport at 7 a.m. and they took off. Normally, the flight to Big Bear would have been quick and scenic. But conditions in the San Gabriel Mountains are notoriously unpredictable, and on that morning, a storm was already rolling in. To understand what Norman would be up against, I want to paint a full picture of the area for you. The San Gabriel Mountains stretched like a jagged spine just north

of Los Angeles. From the city, they look like a postcard backdrop, snow-dusted peaks rising above the palm trees and freeways. They're part of the Angeles National Forest, which covers more than 700,000 acres and contains five nationally designated wilderness areas. It was established in 1908, incorporating the former Santa Barbara and San Gabriel National Forest. Long before the city of Los Angeles was built up across the mountain basin, the San Gabriels were home to several indigenous communities, the Tongva, Serano, and Kuia peoples, who lived, hunted, and traveled through these mountains for thousands of years. The ridges and passes, connected villages, and the canyons provided water, food, and

and medicinal plants. Sacred sites dot the range and oral histories tie the mountains to creation stories and spiritual traditions. The terrain in the San Gabriel Mountains is steep, fractured by canyons, ridges, and cliffs that can confuse even experienced hikers. In summer, the San Gabriel's are alive with the scent of sage and pine and the sweetness of cedar. But in the winter months, like February, the climate is harsh and unpredictable. One moment you're in sunshine, the next you're in a whiteout. Temperatures can change rapidly and at higher elevations, storms gather with little warning. The tallest of the San Gabriel's Mount Baldi rises over 10,000 feet. Nearby, Ontario Peak towers at more than 8,600 feet.

There's been so many people who have recommended we cover Mount Baldi. Yeah. Specifically. There's a lot of stories up there. Yeah. I don't know if you came across any of them in your research or if you flagged that. And I've had it, you know, in the back of my mind. I think that there's like a ton of weird deaths and strange circumstances that have occurred

specifically on Mount Baldy. Interesting. Yeah. So for those of you. Yeah. That are recommending it. Like noted. It's on the list.

Yeah. It's coming. Well, nearby Ontario Peak towers at more than 8,600 feet. They're wild, rugged and indifferent to whoever happens to wander or fly into their domain. As the Cessna lifted into the sky, the San Gabriel's loomed ahead. Norman pressed his face to the window and gazed at the view ahead. He knew these mountains, not by name or elevation, but as places his father had brought him skiing and exploring. While they flew, Norman's father read the sports section of a newspaper and whistled a Willie Nelson song that he had heard and play on his guitar many times.

Norman asked how long the flight would be, and his father replied, about 30 minutes, boy wonder, before biting into an apple. These details are seared into Norman's mind because of what happened next. As the plane climbed higher, the storm thickened. Almost at once, visibility dropped to almost nothing. As Norman later describes in his memoir, fog pressed against all the windows and there was no up or down, no depth at all, as if the plane were standing still, a toy hanging from a string. Inside the cockpit at age 11, Norman felt the shift from excitement to danger.

He knew that something was wrong. Moments later, the Cessna slammed into the side of Ontario Peak. On impact, the plane tore into several pieces. The four passengers were hurled onto the steep side of the mountain in ice and snow. Their bodies sprawled and twisted among the wreckage of the plane. Exposed to freezing wind and snow, they lay on a slope pitched at nearly 45 degrees, which for context is extremely steep. This degree of slope requires the skill of experienced mountaineers to navigate with equipment like crampons and ice ice.

and ice axes for security. The summit was only a few hundred feet above them and below was a sheer drop. Norman had been knocked unconscious. When he came to, he woke up to a nightmare. He was pinned on his side by his seat, unable to turn around to check on his dad or Sandra and struggling to breathe. He called out to Norman Sr. I can't breathe. Dad, I can't breathe. And heard no response. He went in and out of consciousness, later describing it like sinking into a murk of water and then suddenly rising to the top. only to drop into the murk again. When Norman was finally able to free himself from his seat and take a painfully cold deep breath, he saw the pilot's lifeless body sprawled out in impossible directions near the shattered cockpit. In that moment, in shock, he thought to himself,

Dad will fix this, he'll turn everything right side up again. The fog and snow around the aircraft was so thick, the icy slope so steep that it was hard to tell which way was up and which was down. As he crawled cautiously through the body of the plane to find his father, his foot bumped the instrumental panel and it dropped away as if a trap door down the curtain of ice vanishing in the fog. He called out to his dad again and heard a woman's voice through the whipping winds. Sandra, his father's girlfriend, was alive. He followed her voice through the blinding fog and found her perched next to an even steeper, nearly vertical ice chute still in her seat, which had detached from the plane. Her shoulder was badly dislocated.

Sandra was sobbing and trembling when she told Norman that his father was dead. Norman looked back at the plane and sure enough, he saw his father's crumpled body tucked in unmoving behind his seat. But he refused to believe that Sandra was right. As he wrote in his memoir, It was impossible. Dad and I were a team and he was Superman. He told himself that his father must have been knocked unconscious. He recalled the lessons his father had taught him while skiing about how to navigate safely on ice and cautiously made his way back to the plane to check on him.

But with almost nothing to grab onto, he lost his footing and started plummeting down the icy shoot. Out of habit, he yelled for his father, but of course, hurt no response. Miraculously, he was able to catch himself on a baby Evergreen not too far down. The skin on his hands and his whole body stung from the damp cold. He was wearing vans sneakers and his feet were numb, but he knew he had to try to climb back up. Vans are the like talk about the worst footwear for a situation like this, which is the least of your concerns. I'm just trying to like break up. But there's no grip. There's just no fans. I love vans and I have several pairs. You're not going to see an advertisement of them in a mountain terrain. Oh my God. Like that just makes a horrific circumstance even worse. Just like down to the littlest inconvenience of like now I can't even get it. I can't even walk. Yeah. Well, you're just preparing for a flight and then to be in a. building. Yeah, I know. I'm just... No, I just picture it because that's something that I see vans all the time at the airport. I wouldn't think twice. Okay, you and I would be fine when it comes to footwear

because we always wearing her hiking boots on flights. So true. Because we always are like going somewhere. We need our hiking shoes and we just pack carry-ons. So we can't, we don't have extra room. So we're like, we have our jackets on. We've got our hiking boots on. Beanie's, parkas hiking goose people are like where are you going we don't have the room in our storage so we're wearing it yeah so not to laugh during a time like this because i know this is like a huge pivotal moment but um comedic relief yeah okay i'm back i'm back in it channeling his father's spirit norman fought for more than 30 minutes to make his way back up to the plane and what he discovered was that sandra was right his father his superman was dead

It was impossible to process. One moment they had been flying together to Big Bear so that Norman could receive a trophy. Now his father was dead. And he and his father's badly injured girlfriend were stranded, clinging to the edge of a steep ice shoe on a mountain at 8,200 feet of elevation. Their situation was dire. They were trapped in a blizzard with almost zero visibility, no food, no water, no gloves, no ice axe, and no equipment of any kind. But in that same moment of realization of how dangerous the situation was, Norman's father's lessons from all the adventures and extreme childhood experiences came rushing back to him. He knew that there was no way someone would be able to come save him and Sandra in the blizzard before they froze to death.

He already felt hypothermia starting to creep in, but in his mind he could hear his father's voice saying, fight through it, keep moving. And he knew if they were going to make it out alive, they would have to make it down themselves. Through gaps in the fog, Norman could see what looked like a snowy covered flat meadow and the rooftop of a man-made structure far down the mountain. That became his target. Sandra resisted moving, holding on to hope that someone would come and save them. But Norman was decisive.

At that point, it was already afternoon and he knew that nightfall would mean the end for them. We have to move now, he told her. She was the adult, but he was the one who took charge of the situation. Thinking quickly, he snapped too. two branches off a nearby tree to use like ice axes, jabbing them into the side of the mountain to avoid slipping as they began to trek down. Sandra's dislocated arm hung by her side. They slid and skidded. It was terrifying, but Norman tried to reassure her. Just hang in there. We're almost down, he said. The same line his dad had told him countless times when they were in precarious

situations together. And like many of those times, it was a lie. He couldn't see how far the shoot below them stretched. As Sandra struggled, Norman. positioned himself below her on the slope so that he was essentially carrying most of her weight. It's a bit tricky to visualize, but she was basically standing on his shoulders as they descended. His fingers and feet were completely numb. He knew he couldn't carry her much longer, and they were inching along, at this point, only about 30 feet down from where they had started. So it's so steep that she's basically standing on his shoulders and he's just like trying to slowly inch them down so they don't plummet to their deaths. He knew they would never make it at the,

that pace, but out loud to Sandra, he said, we're golden. It was one of his dad's favorite sayings. Suddenly, they slid out of control, sliding down a sheer funnel of ice with no end in sight. By a stroke of luck, their exact angle and a well-time collision with a few rocks, Norman managed to stop their fall. He later described the moment as feeling like a crushed beer can. Sandra sobbing beside him while he stared at her ankle in his hand, unable to feel it there. The skin on his knuckles was gone. A pink liquid see. out, but even with a shock and pain, 11-year-old Norman kept his cool and guided Sandra the rest of the way down the mountain. Unfortunately, not long after, Sandra lost her footing again

and slipped into another ice funnel. This time, luck didn't follow her. Norman lunged to catch her, but she was already out of reach, tumbling headfirst into the icy shoot. As she vanished into the fog, she screamed his name until it eventually faded into silence. Norman scrambled after her, Following the streak of blood she left behind, sliding and climbing for what felt like forever. But the trail ended in emptiness. Sandra was gone. Alone on the mountain now, he was consumed by a crushing mix of grief, guilt, and something even harder to face. A small relief that he no longer had to help her down and could move faster by himself.

That mix of feelings, the shame of it would stay with him for a long, long time. At this point, Norman's hands were raw literally to the bone, but they were also. so cold and numb that he couldn't feel the pain. He ate a bunch of snow to quench his thirst and pushed on. Not long after, he slipped again, tumbling down the ice, scratching up his stomach, but miraculously not hitting any trees. Finally, he reached the bottom of the steep icy chute, and there he found Sandra's lifeless purple body, along with the pieces of the Cessna aircraft that had fallen. Even though he could barely stand, Norman gathered a few scattered twigs and gently laid them over Sandra's body. For a moment, he felt his

himself breaking. This was too much. And for that moment, he thought of just stopping and quitting right there, letting the mountain overtake him and dying alongside Sandra. But in those moments, he heard his father's voice again. Go for it, boy wonder, you can do it. Before he knew it, he was on his feet again, forcing himself forward. From there, the slope was less extreme, and Norman realized that he could make faster progress by intentionally sliding on the ice on his butt using sticks in each hand like ice picks to control his speed. Finally, as the sky began to darken, he reached flat ground. But this posed its own challenges. He was hungry and exhausted, and walking instead of sliding, took what little energy he had left. And just when he believed

he had made it into safer terrain, Norman took a step and collapsed into a tree well that had been hidden by the powdery snow. In an instant, he was buried up to his neck. That's like one of my biggest fears when I'm snowboarding also, especially because I've been venturing into the woods. There's tree wells everywhere and one of my first times I remember I went into the woods on a trail and I hadn't caught in very far down and I fell backwards like head first and my feet were above me because it was like steep on one side and my board was above me and thankfully I didn't go underneath the snow but it was mostly embarrassed I remember thinking like if my head was under the snow I was the last in line of our friends so no one would have seen me yeah

But there were a lot of people on the trail and actually a couple of seconds later, a kid who was way better. It's no boring than me. Stopped and was like, are you okay, ma'am? Do you need help? And I'm like, get away from me. As it like my feet are above my head and I'm like upside down on the side of the trail. I'm like, I'm fine. Nothing to see here. Thank you for your concern. Please move along. Yeah, no, tree wells are so scary. And there's always like video circulating every season of people. people with gopros that like come across somebody in a tree well and and they're just like yeah it's so frightening and they come up on you just so unexpectedly and you just have such limited options if you're to find yourself in a situation like that um so yeah yeah and norman unfortunately does and luckily he his face is still out of the snow but for norman he felt like this was it He was exhausted, he was depleted of any energy left, he was trapped now, and he thought for a moment that this was where he was truly going to die. But somehow again, the lessons he learned from his father skiing in the backcountry and getting buried in powder came to him. He remembered the importance of staying calm, moving slowly, and using the tree itself to pull himself out of the snow.

Slowly, but surely, he was eventually able to climb and wriggle his way out. And finally, just beyond him, there it was. The flat, open meadow he had seen back at the top of the mountain. And in the snow covering the meadow, he saw a fresh bootprint, followed by more of them. With one final burst of energy from somewhere deep within, 11-year-old Norman pushed forward again through the snow that was now waist-deep, following the trail of the bootprints. And then he heard it, a voice. He yelled and the voice yelled back. He yelled again, and it yelled again.

Picking up speed now, Norman followed the voice out of the meadow to a road. A skinny brown dog appeared followed by a teenage boy in a flannel jacket. His name was Glenn Farmer. The boy froze when he saw Norman, saying, are you from the crash? Oh, word had already spread. This is the same day? Yeah, this is the same day. Yeah.

Okay. Word had spread already. Norman told him yes. His father and Sandra were still up there and the pilot was dead. When the boy pressed about his father, Norman heard himself saying, that he was dead or just knocked out. I shook him, but he didn't wake up. Saying it aloud, however, made everything very real. He had been in survival mode since the crash, but now with safety and sight and speaking of the tragedy, he realized for the first time that his father was truly gone.

Norman Sr. would never wake him up for early hockey practice or push him into a daunting wave or point out the beauty in a blizzard. The grief was unbearable. The teenager asked if he should carry Norman. And despite his exhaustion, Norman at first said no, but the boy picked him up anyway. Pain shot through Norman's body as he was lifted, his mind buckling under the weight of loss. Glenn brought Norman to a sawmill nearby where there were adults who called authorities. And while they waited, a woman made hot chocolate for him and sat with him as he began to warm himself by a radiator. Norman had spent a staggering nine hours fighting his way down the slopes of Ontario Peak. He was in bad shape, but he was in bad shape. But he.

was alive. Before long, paramedics and detectives came to meet Norman at the sawmill and took him to a hospital. On the way, detectives began asking him lots of questions about the crash, like, who was flying? Was he sure it was not his dad? Did he notice anybody suspicious when he boarded the plane? Did the pilot say anything before they hit the mountain? Was something wrong with the plane? Norman would soon come to find out that some believe the crash was intentional because of his father's connections to the FBI. Oh. Yeah.

So he's like, why are you asking all these questions? Who is flying? Was anyone suspicious around? What do you mean? I felt like it was pretty cut and dry with the severity of the storm and the decreased visibility. Well, that was his thought, too. And Norman doesn't realize this until a little bit later, which we'll get into in a moment. But they were asking these questions specifically because they were worried that maybe someone was after his dad because of his connections to the FBI.

Right, right. Going back into Norman's injuries, he had a lot of them, but amazingly, none of them were too serious. The doctors at the hospital treated him for frostbite, lacerations, bruises, and early stage hypothermia. But overall, the worst injury he had were his hands. Because he didn't have gloves the whole time that he was climbing down the icy mountains, his skin was shredded to the bone, and one of his hands were broken. Okay, that's hard to, I just like clenched my hands together. But I mean, it's amazing that he didn't sustain any sort of injury in the crash. Other than what mine are bruising in the crash. That's especially because he was pinned under his seat and stuff. Yeah. Not even a broken bone from that. After that sort of impact, that clearly claimed the lives of two people and then I know Sandra died otherwise. But. Yeah, it's still, though. I mean, it's miraculous that that that happened. And the fact that going down that steep terrain that these are his only injuries. And I mean, that is. To the bone is pretty. To the bone is pretty gruesome. But also there's kind of like a saving grace in here where he was so cold that he couldn't feel it. Right. And the adrenaline and shock and survival mode. Everything else. Sticks. Yeah. Well, now that he's back and he's in a hospital and he's getting care, now this is the. first time where he's really seeing his hand and now he's actually experiencing the pain because he's warmed up again and he's like, oh, like I'm actually injured. Norman's mother met him at the hospital. The relief for her was overwhelming, but for Norman, the time in the hospital was disorienting. News of the boy survivor had spread instantly. Within hours, headlines blared across

the country. Boy survives air crash and trek and snow. Reporters flock to the hospital, eager to interview him and learn of his ordeal. Norman, an 11-year-old child, found himself at the center of a media circus. The very next morning, he was wheeled into a room in the hospital that was full of reporters and interviewed. Journalists asked him to recount

every moment of the traumatizing experience he had just lived through, from the crash to Sandra's fall, to the hours and hours of fighting through the blizzards alone. Did his mom have to okay that? I know this is in the 70s. I don't think so. I think I, from my understanding, it seems like it was just like, okay, reporters are here to talk to you. And it was like, okay. And didn't really, didn't really think that there was an option to say no. Okay. Just kind of thrown into it. And he did. He answered them. But the whole time he felt numb and almost outside himself as he's answering these questions. It's just like, whiplash. I just went through all of this. And now you're asking me all of these questions. One of the things he did tell them, he's like, how are you doing? Or how was it? what was it like up there? And he just kept saying, the skin on my hands kept coming off.

I mean, the insensitivity of that coming from adults, who I know it's your job to ask these questions and to get the scoop and the story. But he's still a child. Whatever. He's a child. And to ask how somebody is doing after they just survived a plane crash and watched two of their parental figures perish in front of him. Like, what do you think? It's like, leave this kid alone. Like what do you, how do you think he is? Yeah. Like, I don't know. That's just like such an insensitive question. Yeah, and to just ask him, recount everything that happened to you.

Why? Why do you need to, why do newspapers need to know this and spread this to the public? It's just, yeah. Especially, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. But part of when reporters asked him how he, how did he survive this ordeal, he told them that his dad had taught him to never give up. Oh. Okay.

You know. Just one second. Because that's really sad. The story is when I first, like, I cried a few times for this story. Is this one of those times because I feel it? Yeah. Yeah. Is it happening now?

Yeah. Okay. Norman's survival was celebrated, but it also became public property. Already on the car ride home from the hospital later that day, he heard. heard two news anchors on the radio speculating about whether the crash might not have been an accident at all, but the work of someone inside the FBI as punishment for Norman Sr. publishing his expose on the insides of the FBI and criticizing it. They pointed to the former FBI director's reputation for vindictiveness and noted that many of his loyal men still held powerful positions in the Bureau. This, of course, was completely ludicrous, but of course Norman knew no one did that.

this. We were in the middle of a blizzard. I was there. I saw this happen. And there's only four people on board. Yeah. It's like, right? The FBI did an orchestrate a blizzard that crashed us into this. This was clearly not that, but it just added to, it made an additional stress on a situation that was already the worst imaginable to have these weird rumors flying. I mean, that touches and hits a nerve for me personally because I've been there when it's like, I'm already experiencing a tragic death. And then to have other people who think they might know what happened and to like proudly state that and like direct comments towards me about it when they have no clue as to what happened.

Like it's just such a bizarre experience because one side of you is like, are you fucking kidding me? Like what? Yeah. Like how are you even thinking that? And then the other side of you is, I mean, it's multi-dimensional, but then there's like another piece of you that is still perplexed and in shock and it's like, whatever. Like I don't have time for this. I don't even have time for that.

And then the other part of you is full of rage. Like, how dare you type of thing. How dare you speak of my loved one in this way? Right. And speculate on, who are you to speculate on this? What relation do you have to this or to even come up with that? I truly do not know. And this is just such an aside.

And it's not, I don't even know if we can. It's totally not the same thing. But it's such a bizarre thing that we're talking about this right now. Because this morning, I was at the grocery store picking something up and I was waiting in line. And you know at the end of the, I forget what they're called. But like when you're waiting in line for to check out the stands that have like different magazines and stuff on them. Yeah. Like at the end of the aisle way.

And I was just kind of glancing at them. And one of that. And of course, there's always tabloids on. them, like us weekly or whatever. And there was one that had Britney Spears on the front cover and had this like incredibly weird headline about something to do with like her sanity or something. And it's like, leave her alone. I just, I had the thought that I do not understand how famous people do not want to just kill everybody. Because. I know it's part of the job and whatever.

It's like da-da-da-da. But just the amount of articles and different stories that circulate about them and their personal lives, their love lives, their whatever the hell. I don't understand how more people are not just breaking under that. And it's just like, it's so weird that I had that thought this morning. And now you're saying this about like people speculating about. Yeah. this person's story. And it's just like, I just don't understand what that's all about. And I mean, I give credit to this kid for so many different reasons, but also having to handle that from adults who are so

high up, not just adults, but like government officials. Officials that are like, you know, speculating about somebody maybe, because what they're essentially saying is maybe somebody targeted your dad to kill him. Yeah. And you. Sorry, you were involved. Yeah. I mean, mean, you just survived this ordeal and you're not met with EM. I mean, he was met with paramedics, but also there's detectives there. It's like, why? Yeah. And then, of course, you're listening to the radio on your ride home from this ordeal,

from the hospital, and you hear this. It just adds to the confusion also, at minimum. At minimum, it adds to. Especially since there's no weight to it. And I get, like, I guess I can understand, like, just because of his dad's position in investigating that, but I think that it would become very clear right away that that's not just asking what happened and figuring out and seeing the storm and everything. There's no reason for that to come out publicly that that was a thought. Like I understand the detectives looking at that avenue briefly, but there's no reason for that to become public knowledge. Yeah, it feels like that could have stayed an internal investigation. Totally. I mean, they've done bigger and better things of keeping things under wraps. We all know that. So why is. this on a public stage. No need. Going back into people in his story, strangers across the country and across the world dissected his story, applauded his resilience, and debated the decisions

of the adults who had taken him on that flight, including his father, his hero. For Norman, it was overwhelming. He had lost his father and Sandra. He was still recovering from physical wounds and unable to even begin processing his emotional ones. And all while, he was being paraded. around as a miracle. In interviews, Norman appeared both bewildered and composed. There was a gravity about him. He seemed older than 11 as if the experience had aged him overnight. Reporters marveled at how calm he seemed, how he could speak of crawling through snow, of losing Sandra to the ice funnel, of hearing his father's voice in his mind without breaking down into tears. But beneath that composure was shock, grief, and a trauma that would take decades to fully unravel. I was just,

just about to say shock and dissociation. Yeah. You're just empty responding to these questions. Yeah. Rescuers and the press painted Norman as a symbol of resilience, the boy who beat the mountain. But privately, Norman was just trying to piece together what had happened. He had seen death up close.

He had seen his father die. He had watched Sandra slip away. He had been forced to leave their bodies behind on the mountain. He had fought for his life through a blizzard, always on the slippery edge of a fatal fall. He had lived through nine hours of a type of fear that no child, no person should ever have to endure. For his father's funeral, hundreds of people packed into a local church, spilling into the aisles and out the doorways when seats filled. One by one, mourners stood at the podium to speak about Norman Sr. The service stretched on for two hours, so long that the church had to cut it off.

11-year-old Norman cried each time someone rose to speak. After the formal service, one of his uncles hosted a party with a Dixieland band, a celebration of Norman Sr's life that relatives insisted his father would have wanted. Norman agreed and he danced too, but while people laughed and celebrated his life, he only fell overcome with grief. After the crash, Norman stopped playing hockey, stop surfing, stop skiing, stop doing all those physical activities that he had shared with his father. As he wrote in his memoir, he quote, mostly just hung out with neighborhood kids and hoped I wouldn't turned sullen and awkward. Instead, I came down with a lot of sore throats and had to stay inside and alone several days a week. My body was not used to all that hanging around and grief stayed

crammed up inside me with no outlet except the sore throats. And I just think of that as like a, you're under such stress. Stress does so much to your body. And the fact that he was experiencing getting sick and getting sore throats all the time after that, I think was a stress response of his body and his immune system and everything just not being able to cope with the weight of what he was dealing with emotionally. Absolutely. So while Norman's rescue was the end of the physical ordeal, it was far from the end of the story.

As his physical wounds began to heal, his emotional wounds festered, untreated, buried deep inside him. At 11 years old, Norman didn't have the vocar- at 11 years old, Norman didn't have the vocabulary for grief or trauma. What he had was silence. In the years after the crash, Norman carried a storm inside him. Restless, angry, volatile. By his early teens, he had fallen in with a skater gang, spending weekends, crashing parties and starting fist fights. In fact, he got into fights constantly, sometimes winning, sometimes taking a beating, but even defeat made him feel stronger. Every bruise, every black guy was proved to himself that he could endure. Among his crew, he was the most aggressive, the one most likely to throw the first punch. Behind that was a boy trying to outweigh. on grief and guilt. He told himself he was supposed to be tough, supposed to shake it off the way his father had taught him, but he couldn't shake the memories of that day. In Norman's words,

I was supposed to be tough because I made it down that mountain. The dark feelings swirling and clawing inside me were something that I would just have to get over. Dad got over his hurt feelings, shook them off, moved on. Bad stuff just had to be reframed. I knew how to do that. As Norman grew older, he found that his father's voice never left him. It continued. continued to echo in the back of his mind as it had on the mountain, urging him forward, pushing him past fear. The impact of that was double-edged. When he was alive, his father had given him the tools to survive, but that same tools had come at the cost of childhood marked by pressure and fear. In death, his father's legacy in Norman's mind had also become a pressure

to be okay and to push down his grief through adolescence and into adulthood. And to be clear, he wasn't a delinquent forever. After years of channeling his pain and to fist fights, he found a different path forward. He enrolled at UCLA where he studied English and later actually went on to law school for a time like his father. He built a life, pursued his passions, and became a father himself. But the crash was always with him. Eventually, he realized he needed to tell his story, his experience in his words, not just for the world, but also for himself. It was 27 years after the crash that Norman finally investigated what had actually gone wrong during the flight. He obtained the National Transportation Safety Board's accident report

and went over it with a close friend who was an experienced pilot. His friend Michael was blunt, stating the flight had been doomed from the start. Within 30 seconds of takeoff, the pilot Rob Arnold was already disoriented. He had started the flight without a weather briefing and without a flight plan. He was using an underpower plane with no instruments on a cloudy day. He should have never taken off, much less proceeded towards the storm ahead. He also told Norman, who was hearing this for the first time, that the air traffic control warned Rob three times during their flight that it was not safe to fly. Oh my God. And he ignored those warnings? Or what? Ignored all of them. And we don't know why because he's dead now since he passed away in the crash. I didn't know if there was like

transcripts available of him responding and what his answers were to those. advisories or orders or warn it, whatever they were, you know, because like maybe he was being warned, but he's like, yeah, I understand that, but I have no idea where I am. I'm so disoriented. Like, it's not like, okay, it's not safe turn back. And he's like, okay. You just said with 30 seconds, like he was already. It seems like he just didn't listen to any of the protocol for whatever reason. It's really tough. And it's like you don't want to sign blame to somebody who's deceased and can't defend their decisions. However, his decision also costs two other people their lives as well. Yeah, there's that. And this realization really sickened Norman. He realized that his father hadn't died in some grand adventure. He wasn't in this avalancheer swallowed by a wave, which was what was like, if he went out was always what they thought would have been, would have been doing something he really loved. It was because of a string of avoidable mistakes. After reviewing the report and learning,

learning all this, Michael suggested that they fly the same flight that they had that day. And Norman agreed. They flew the same path up San Antonio Canyon and over Ontario Peak before finally approaching Big Bear Airport, which had been their original destination. Looking out the window, Norman was struck all over again by how unforgiving the terrain was. And this time as an adult seeing, looking at this train being like, I was 11. And I did that. And I had to navigate. Yeah. He later went on to climb that mountain. Back up to the spot near the peak where the plane had crashed. He kissed the ground where his father had died, and while he was there, he found broken carbon fiber shards unburied in the snow from the wreckage. After that experience, Norman decided to write a memoir about

his experience and explored not just how he survived, but what that survival meant. It was published in 2009 exactly three decades after the crash. He titled his memoir, which I have mentioned, before in this episode, Crazy for the Storm, the book alternates chapter by chapter between two timelines, Norman's terrifying descent down Ontario Peak, and the years of his childhood under his father's relentless training. The structure captures the truth of the story. The survival in the mountain cannot be separated from the childhood that prepared him for it. The voice of his father is as much of a presence in the memoir as Norman himself, and Crazy for the Storm struck a chord. It became a New York Times bestseller, praised for its honesty and its ability to weave adventure with raw emotional truth.

Warner Brothers even acquired the film rights, though no movie was ever produced. The attribution Norman wrote at the front of the book explains his choice of the title. It reads, quote, My father craved the weightless glide. He chased hurricanes and blizzards to touch the bliss of riding mighty waves and deep powder snow. An insatiable spirit, he was crazy for the night. the storm, and it saved my life. This book is for my father and for my son. Perhaps the most important part of Norman's aftermath was how he chose to raise his own son. He passed on his love of skiing and

surfing, but with a different approach. Where his father had pushed, Norman allowed freedom. Where his father had demanded, Norman offered encouragement. He wanted his son to know the joy of adventure without the fear of failing his parents' expectations. In that way, Norman both carried forward and transformed his father's legacy. The voice of Never Give Up was still there, but softened and offered as guidance rather than a command. Looking back, Norman described survival not as a single act, but as a lifelong process. Making it down the mountain was only the beginning. Living with the memory and with the loss was the real test.

His story reminds us that survival is never simple. It's physical, yes, but it is also emotional. It's about carrying grief, guilt, and love, and still finding a way to keep moving forward. And that is my story of survival of Norman. The end got me real bad. Yeah. Was that the second time you cried? Yeah.

I'm only not this time because I've already read it and written it. I know. I know. I know. But yeah, I was editing it a bit before we hopped on here and it made me tear up quite a few times. Just Normant, I mean, just his, I think his love for his father and what he takes from him is just such a relatable experience. And then whether you have lost your father or fear that you're going to lose your father, I think everyone also really relates to. And I just, this story was so much more, as I mentioned at the beginning, it was so much more. then about survival, but also just about relationships and your relationship with your parent. Yeah. And I think that, you know, how you're describing his relationship that he now has with his son and like the tweaks that he's made based off of his own experience. I mean, I think that's just comes with every generation, right? It's like you can love and admire and kind of glorify somebody. I mean, I feel like I do that a bit with my dad. And I'm not a parent.

So I can't speak to it 100%, but I think even in those times where it's like I loved almost all of these things about, you know, my mom, my dad, my parental figure. But if, you know, when it's my time to do it, I'm going to do like a lot of that, but with just like a little bit of a spin based off of like how I feel about how I was raised. And I think that there, you know, there's definitely extremes to that. There are some people who are like, I want to parent in no way, shape or form like how I was raised. Yeah. You know, and that's totally fair.

And everyone has different relationships and dynamics with their parental figures. But I think we're always basing how we move forward, either as a parent or as a person, based on how, you know, the lessons or experiences we had with our own people who raised us. And we're always just kind of hopefully getting better. and better as the generations go on and kind of like that generational change. Everyone strives to be better. Even if you have a great childhood and you don't have, even if you have the perfect childhood, I think that everyone is always like, okay, my parents did this and did the best that they

could. I'm going to step it up and do a little bit better. And I think that's always the theme with the next generation as you try to do better. even if it was great, there's always room for better. Yeah, for sure. Oh, my God. I'm not going to lie. This one definitely made me miss my dad a lot.

Yeah. But in a really good way because, like, he wasn't an extreme, like, ski or snowboarder, like, super cool in that way. Just like the, just the, you know, as far as. is how Norman is like I so many parts of myself not just the things and activities I do but the mentality I have I got from my dad and like I can totally relate to that and even though I can't stand on a snowboard or serve a shit but but it's different like everyone take something from their dad you know everyone who has or has a father figure in their life um I think that there there's so many whatever it is you take from your dad it's special to you and i thought that norman's story

just really highlighted how complicated and important that is of how your father i think that fathers aren't always appreciated or highlighted highlighted enough of the important roles that they have with their kids and this one i just really um felt for because i just thought that it was really nice how much he took all of those times where he was like, dad, why are you taking me and making me do this stuff? When the push came to shove, it was his dad's voice. That was his voice of reason and his voice of survival that was like, you can do it. Push yourself. You've got this.

Like it was always his dad's voice that came back to him. And I just thought that that was really special. Well, thanks for covering it. However, you found it because I know you said you've spent a while since you, you're like, I don't even know how it came across. I think I was literally just looking for survival stories. And I came across an article that mentioned, I feel like I could be wrong. But I just like, wait, what is this?

What do you mean? And at first when I saw the story, I saw that he was only stranded for nine hours. And I was like, does that really? What kind of survival stories only nine hours that I could do a whole episode on, you know? And then when I really started looking into it, it was more about the dynamic with his dad that really caught. And of course his age and his survival story is miraculous, especially considering the terrain he was in. But it was just something about the family dynamic that really, really touched me. Well, thank you for sharing it.

And as always, we will put the book up not only in the episode description, but on the bookshelf tab of our website. So if you're looking for some inspo and want to know more about Norman's story and his relationship with his dad, that'll be there. And great. Thanks for making me. I'm like, God, we need to, I feel like I've said this before, but I think we need to come up with like a little thing. No, we don't have to do it every time because sometimes it's a natural, like, everything's okay to end on. But for these especially when it's just kind of like, well, and that's it. Yeah. We need a way to end the episodes that has a little bit more of an uplifting turn.

I'm not going to come up with it right now. It's not going to be today. No, we're just going to leave on this. Just know we're thinking about it. It's on our mind. Send us your ideas if you have some. That would be great. I have a lot on my plate. I can't think of it. We need help. We need help, please. All right. Well, We will see everyone next week, and it's exciting because it is officially the start of a lot of people's favorite season, which is spooky season. I think I'm going to go all in this year. Oh, okay. I think I'm even going to get, I'm going to go get my nails done and get like the little ghosts and spider webs on my nails. And I'm going to wear black and orange and read spooky books.

Okay. That is all in, it feels like. And go to Salem. Ah, yes. Well, God bless. I was there a couple weeks ago at the beginning of September. Yeah. And already there was so many people there.

I'm like, what? I thought I was here early. I thought I missed it. Courtney Kardashian was there recently. Did you see that? I didn't. I mean, I saw it because I saw, you said they were in New Hampshire. sure. They were. And then I saw, I think it was on my algorithm, somebody posted a little clip of

Travis Barker in their kid, like on the steps near the like hocus pocus town hall, like on that main drag there. And Courtney was listening to a tour guide, give a like a talk. Like, oh my God, that would have been so cool. I wouldn't have said anything to her because I don't want to be one of those people that is, I don't even know what I would say. I can't be like, hey, you're the only Kardashian. I like, I can't say that. But anyways, yeah. So spooky seasons are on the corner here in New England.

Allegedly the first week of October is supposed to be peak foliage. Although I've been hearing conflicting things because we're in a drought right now. So people are thinking that the foliage is going to not be as good this year. And I was up in northern New Hampshire last week. And I did notice, one, the foliage is already starting, which is it feels really early, like significantly starting. But also a lot of it is brown. Like it's like dead leaves already. And I've noticed it here in.

It's weird because Vermont, I don't know what it is about my location specifically. And maybe it's because we have a lot of water right here. But if you're at my house, it looks like full summer. There's no changing leaves at all. Like the view that you see, there's no changing leaves anywhere. You get to town and everything's already changing. So, which is weird because I'm at high elevation and town is at lower elevation. So I don't know.

Interesting. But. Yeah. Well, hopefully we get a little something something because I feel like this is the first year in a lot of years that I've been around in New England for fall. Just between our personal trips, our trips with the podcast and then. of course living either in Colorado or Washington or just away. You know, like I just, I haven't really had a true New England fall in a while. So if this time around, it's like, wamp, bump, bump.

I'm going to be a little. A little. It's going to be great. It's still fall in New England. This is our thriving season. I know. I need to go get like apple cider things. We did that yesterday.

Oh, this is a great way to end. I know. I'm like, we're already talking about it. We've done it. I don't know how we did it, but here we are. Here we are. I went apple picking yesterday and we went to a local, I mean, it's a tourist trap, but we went to a local cider mill and we got apple cider and donuts. And I came home and I made an apple crisp with ice cream and caramel and it was really, really lovely. And the weather was great. So we're heading into fall time. And I'm going to be going to. make an apple pie soon.

Did you get like five pounds of apples? Yeah, I got way too many apples. I thought like I made the apple crisp. I used 11 apples for my apple crisp and I'm not even close to finish with my apples. So now I have to make an apple pie. You always get far too many. You just go, I don't know. There's something about being an orchard.

You just, you're breathing in that air. You're like, I got to fill these apples. It's like for once. It's like I've had like five apples in the last six months. Why do I need 28 of them now? I don't know, but it's an emergency. It's what the England fall does to you. I know, it does.

Something shifts and you're like, like you just said, you're like, for somebody who doesn't get their nails done ever to now want spiderwebs and ghosts on them, the transformation is upon us. It is. Actually, I think what's also inspired it is so I got my nails done for my wedding, which I knew at the salon when she was like, is this long enough? I'm like, I want it shorter. I want it shorter. And then she eventually got to a length and she's like, you're going to want it like this long?

I don't know. She convinced me I wanted long nails. I did not. I cut them literally the day after the wedding. I chopped them down to be super short. But my nails grow really, really fast. So they're already really long again. but they have the gel on them

and I can't take the gel off so now I have to like go back and get them done again so I'm like well while in there. Might as well get some ghosts. Might as well get some ghosts, yeah. But I feel like it's too early to do it now so I'm going to have to go back twice.

Right? Yeah. Okay, well I know you're like three hours away from me but are you going to like a normal nail salon or one that specializes in like art, nail art? They do both. I think. Okay.

Because there's a nail salon like in a neighboring town that is so great. And they're the best. I'm going to shout them out anyway. They're called Blackheart nail studio. Yeah. Oh, you've showed me them before. Oh, my God. She's, Michaela is the owner.

It's amazing. If you're in Southern New Hampshire, they book up like months in advance because all of their nail artists are amazing. But I don't get my nail. I mean, I got my nails done for your wedding and I just painted them black. They're not long enough or really like to do intricate designs. I wish I was one of those people. But so I feel bad just going there for plain nails because they do such awesome work.

But they are just amazing at what they do. And it's in a haunted building in downtown Dover, New Hampshire. And you walk in and everything is like, Gothic themed and it's not a normal like run-up-a-mail. You don't go there before I go to Salem. Please do. You should. You honestly should.

It would be fun. Oh my God, please do. And then drop me off some apple treat. I'll bring you an apple pie. Please too. Because I don't really, I want to indulge, but I don't want to go myself and because I know what will happen. And I will be up to my neck in apples as you are. Yeah, it's a tough problem to have. But also, it's nice because my house smelled so good yesterday. It was like epitome of fall.

Ooh, do a simmer pot. Can you do a simmer pot? I did that. I did a simmer pot yesterday. With apples? No, I didn't. So I was making apple crisp, but I did simmer pot of oranges, sage, and cinnamon. Okay. I didn't know if there's one with apples or not. I feel like me. is probably I didn't even honestly I did it because I I did a simmer pot because I did an oven clean and I um it was like smoky and it smelled like burnt and kind of gross in here after I did the self cleaning oven thing and I couldn't get the smell out like we had all the windows open fans everything and I was like I'm going to do a simmer pot and I have that and it smells so good in here yeah okay do it again just because well I are uh whatever

the heck that just was worked. I feel better. Yeah. I forgot we were still recording. All right. Thank you everyone for hanging out. We can cut it if you want. No. No. Let the people hear us. Yeah. Okay. Well, we will see everyone next week. And in the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch you're back. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club,

live streams, discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet.

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