National Park After Dark - NPAD Turns FOUR

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

It’s our birthday (or, anniversary)! Four years ago this week we released out very first episode with zero clue what we were doing. Since then we have covered over 200 stories, gained thousands of friends and made a lot of memories. Today’s episode is a look back to some (hilarious, cringy, sad and happy) moments on our journey here as well as some updates on cases we have covered along the way. Thank you to everyone who has made NPAD so special, we love you - cheers to us all!Come see us in Joshua Tree! Buy tickets here.Justice for AntonFor a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!Soul:  For 30% off your order, head to GetSoul.com and use code NPAD.Blueland:  Use our link to get 15% off your first order.Rocket Money: Use our link to get started saving.Smalls: For 50% off your first order, head to Smalls.com and use code NPAD. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. We're so excited today because we have a very, very special episode.

Yeah, it's our fourth anniversary this week or fourth birthday. I don't know if we've settled on. Four year anniversary, four year birthday, four years of podcasting, four years of you all tuning in and listening to us and four years of a lot of stuff that has happened from the day we started to the podcast to right now in 2025. Our official birthday is January 21st. Is that right? The 25th, I think. Oh.

We should have looked this. Let me look. Let me look on Spotify. I think you're right. I think it's the 25th. I do know. This is coming out the 27th, which is another big day for me because it's the day that I adopted Chaska. Oh. So it's Chaska's ninth adoptaversary. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's so special. Are you doing anything for him? Yes. Thank you for asking. So I ordered him a cake. And I, like I pre-ordered it. I went to the dog bakery to pick it out and to design it. And I'm picking it up on the day we get back from Colorado on the 26th because today, the 27th, is his birthday celebration. So he's getting a cake. and like lots of special treatment.

But I also found out that dog bakery also works in conjunction with the doggy pool. And I've rented him a pool before for his birthday, but they do pool parties. So I think I'm going to make like, spoiler. Sorry. I was going to send you like a formal invite to bring like Ember. And I was going to have Ember and Atticus and beans like all of his dog friends come for a pool party. Oh my God. Yes, we'll come. Okay, perfect. It'll be sometime in February, but.

Okay. So anyway, okay, well, enough about him. This is an anniversary. Although we would love to highlight Chaska this whole episode. We have so much to talk about because I feel like so much has happened between our trips, our live shows. We've met hundreds of you over the years. We have gone across the world from Maine to Alaska to Borneo to South. South Africa, we've traveled the world with you all, and we have had all of these crazy stories

that we've been able to bring forward a lot inspired by you guys, a lot that we have researched just coming across. It's just been this whole journey. And before we get into it, we did have two little things, one big thing, one little thing that we wanted to announce that's going on right now that is also fun in conjunction with this whole anniversary. Yeah. So today's episode is going to be pretty laid back. We have a little outline of a bunch of questions that we've received over time that will answer for you guys and also just kind of like a laid back episode just to kind of bring you through a condensed version of National Park After Dirk's journey and our personal lives and things that have happened over the last four years. But before we do that, we have another

event that we want to talk about really quickly that's coming up in May. And it's pretty unique. We haven't done anything like this before. You're very familiar with the trips that we've done and they're kind of longer form and require like, you know, a week or so of travel and are pretty limited as far as spots that are available. This also has a limit, but there's more availability. And we are going to be doing a camping weekend in Joshua Tree National Park. Yes. And not only just a camping weekend where we are inviting you guys to come hang out with us and sit around the fire, I listen to stories, go hiking, all that good stuff. But we're also doing a live show event in Joshua Tree National Park in conjunction with Joshua Tree National Park service is helping us put this on and putting it on with us.

So we have tickets to either camp out for the weekend and see the show or we also have tickets if you just want to come down, come see the live show, come hang out with us for a night or for a few hours. It is coming up in May. May 2nd to the 4th. Yeah, May 2nd through the 4th. And the tickets are available now. They're on sale as this is released. We're going to put the booking link and everything on our social pages. We'll post it.

You'll be very aware of where to find it. We'll put it on our website. So check that out. It'll have all the nitty gritty details, the amount of tickets that are available for either option. We're going to have ranger talks. We're going to be camping within the park. And it's just going to be really fun. So, and Joshua Tree is a really cool place, especially if you've never been before.

and want to explore and be there with like-minded people, this is your opportunity. So we would love to see you and hang out with you then. And this is the coolest venue we have ever. This is the coolest. Hosted in, yeah. Yeah, it really, I mean, the Stanley and Rocky Mountain National Park right outside Anestis was really, really cool too. But this is like the first time we're really jumping into a national park with all of you

for a live show, which is really exciting. Yeah, and it has more activities. we're going to have hiking opportunities and like Cassie said, we're going to have some campfire stuff going on. We have other people coming with the Rangers and stuff. So it's not just, you know, it's not just us, even though we are going to be putting on a live show. But anyway, so you can get all the details on the website and let us know if you have any questions, but it's going to be really fun. So that's our big announcement. That's the big one.

That's, yeah, that's the big one. But we also have a little small announcement, tiny, and it's about merch. and we have heard you and we are trying. I feel bad even like hoarding this. Like this is like a coveted item. Get me that sweatshirt. We have restocked our merch store. So there are some items available if you didn't get to grab one, especially around

autumn and the holiday drops and things like that. We have restocked for you. Yeah. We restock some of the listener favorites. So they're on there for you now. So go check it out. But those are our two things before we jump into our anniversary episode. So as Daniel said before, we are diving into some questions that you all had for us.

We are going to talk about our journey throughout the four years. But in addition, because this is a storytelling podcast, we also are revisiting some of our craziest stories that we've covered and some of our favorite stories that we've covered and giving you updates on what has happened since – I mean, some of these we haven't covered since 2021. So there's some updates to be had and to be told. old. Yeah. So, God, there's just, where do we even begin? I know we wrote down like this little outline, but I don't know how strictly we're going to follow it. But I guess I think we can start a little bit. It kind of coincides with some of the questions that we've gotten as far as how the podcast began, our friendship began, things like that, that we get often. So we can, I guess, start there and just give the condensed version, because I feel like we've talked about this a lot. You want to tell the story of how we met and how we've seen. And how we've seen.

start the podcast? Is that how far we're going back? Or are we starting? Where are we starting with this story? Okay. This is the condensed version. Cassie and I grew up in Southern New Hampshire together. Okay, sit back. Sit back. Relax. This is a long one. This is a long. Just kidding. I'm going to make it quick. Cassie and I grew up in Southern New Hampshire in neighboring towns. We had some mutual friends, but never really met until after college, where we worked at the same veterinary hospital together. We really bonded there. And when we moved cross-country, she was going to Vermont. I was going to Washington at the time. We decided to start the podcast. And that's what we did. And for a really long time, we worked as veterinary technicians still just in different hospitals. And we did this podcast at night. So our schedules like weren't matched, but anybody in the veterinary world is familiar.

you work pretty much like nursing shifts. So you work 10 to 12 hour shifts and then you have, you know, three days off or so a week. And we would do our entire shifts and then come home and record or research or write for the podcast. And we did that for a really long time. As far as we get a lot of questions about if we do this full time. And as of now, yes, we do. We have for quite a while now. And there's various reasons for that. Number one, it was completely unsustainable to work full-time and grow the podcast to what it is now. We wouldn't have ever been able to do that without giving ourselves some slack. And we kind of, I would say we gradually, we're like, okay, we're going to go down to part time. Okay, now we're going to. We just like. Take for yourself. I jump ship as quick as I could. I was just like, I'm good. I don't have that many bills right now. Yeah. My vet teching career doesn't pay me very well. I can figure this out with the podcast. I'm out of here. And it is hard because, you know, veterinary technicians don't make a lot. So it's not hard to make a vet tech salary in any other field. I mean, podcasting a lot of times doesn't pay well.

I mean, you get a job in fast food or retail or anything like that and you get paid more than vet techs do. And fat techs are doing anesthesia and they're getting bit by dogs and they're handling really sad situations and they're doing medical. They're doing a lot of medical things, obviously, but it's a really high-stress job that doesn't earn enough monetarily. And we- Or, like, gratitude-wise. Like, it's a very thinkless job. And it's high-stress, high-emotion, high-burnout, low-pay. And that all is, I mean, there's a reason there's a revolving door in the veterinary field. And there's a reason why, unfortunately, it's also a field that's always topping the charts on suicide rates amongst doctors and technicians and just vet staff in general.

So anyways, without that's kind of, we don't need to harp on that. But essentially, long story short. Be nice to your vet techs and your veterinarians because we know you love your pets and we know that you're trying to do the best that you can. But so is everyone there. they're trying to do the best that they can with what they have. Yeah. So Cassie jumped ship immediately and was like, peace them out. I did more of that, you know, the gift that is like Homer Simpson, he's just like slowly backing away into a bush. I will disappear now. That was me for a really long time.

I was like, okay, I, because I really did enjoy, despite all the crap we just talked, I really enjoyed being a veterinary technician. And it was hard for me to completely detach. but the kind of like nail in the coffin, so to say, was when my partner Ian passed away. And that goes into another question that we get a lot about Ian. A lot of people are like, who is Ian? Especially if you're coming later on to the show and you're like, what is all this with sign stories and who's this guy, Ian? And what's happening? Yeah.

So for anyone who's newer to the show, Ian is my part or was my. partner and he lost his life due to anoxic brain injury, essentially. He had an undiagnosed brain tumor that was never caught and it caused him to die suddenly. And it was awful and horrific. And I, when he was in the ICU, I went into the vet office when he was in brain surgery and I quit. And I was like, I couldn't. I, there was just way too much happening. I'm like that I, yeah. And I couldn't go back to a hospital situation. After being in a hospital there. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that we would be, sorry, I would just, I'm just saying, I think that we would be really missing a big part of the past four years if we didn't talk about Ian a little bit because, especially because every single time that you press play on one of our podcasts, that intro music that you're listening to is Ian. That is a song that he wrote specifically for this podcast. So Ian is with us in every podcast when you start it and when you end it, that outro music that you have at the end of the episode is Ian as well. So he is in every single episode for the past four years that we've been doing. Yes. And he was so stoked to be involved. I mean, when we asked him to do that, he was like, you would have thought we asked him to play like The Garden or something. It's like, okay, relax. But I feel like, I've been working on this for eight hours. I remember I would come on to. as like a Zoom meeting like with you or like to record or something and Ian would be in the background

and be like, hey, hold on guys. Like I got to show you. What do you think of this? And he'd like come in with a guitar. He's like, I've been working on this all week. What do you think? And he would send us a bunch of versions and to a trained musician's ear. I'm sure you could tell the difference. But to us, we're like, we're so sorry. Is this different from what you already showed us? There's like one note that's different. And he's like, which one? He was just like he really wanted to perfect it and make it perfect for the show, which he did do. And I mean, whatever version we chose or whatever version he chose, I don't remember, is perfect for the show. It's great. And it's kind of, I actually, I forget the account, but they reached out on our Instagram and they, or they tagged us in playing his song or the intro song and they were trying to transcribe it, like get the note. Because people who reach out and say, hey, where's that music from? Or like, do you have the, like the sheet music for him? Like, Ian took that to his grave. I have no idea what, like, you know what I mean? He never wrote it down. He just, I don't, like, we need a trained musician who can figure out music from hearing it to ever be able to rewrite it. Because he didn't read music. He just did it all by ear. And so if anyone has figured that out and can send me it, I have a lot of his instruments still and a lot of his guitars. And I would love to spend this year. And I would love to spend this year.

teaching myself how to play our intro song on one of Ian's guitars. So if you could do that for me, that would be really great. But anyway, yeah, so without getting too emotional, because I know I will, Ian was a huge part of National Park After Dark in the beginning and still is, as Cassie said, and he's a huge part of my life and continues to be and he's in everything that I do and I love him so much. So if you hear about him or hear me talk about him, that's why. And for, you know, there's been a couple people who, part of the reason I don't read comments anymore who are like, hey, can you shut the fuck up about Ian now? And it's like, I will never do that. So you can kind of leave. Sorry, you're on the wrong platform. So anyways, Ian was the best. And yeah, so that was a

traumatic thing from the last four years. But, you know, I think like it's, it's, it's, It's part of this episode to say, you know, we have been through so much for the past four years. There's been really high highs, really low lows. We've laughed together. We've cried together as just us together. But with our whole audience, too. I mean, I think that's what this episode is today. We're going to laugh together.

We're going to cry together. And we're going to like, what is going on with this together? It's just this is National Park After Dark as its entirety and what we've grown to love about all of it, the good and the bad. And talking about Ian will always be a part of National Park After Dark because he is a big part of it. Yeah. And I kind of just branching off of that is his life has impacted mine. And because of that, it's kind of created this domino effect in the best way because I've been able to connect other people together that have, you know, this grief that they're going through in their own lives with loss and a big moment in the last four years personally, but it's an extension

of National Park After Dark is I hosted my first ever grief retreat in Colorado where I had 16 people come that have lost children, parents, siblings, friends, grandparents, and just all came together for a week to to grieve and go through and be with one another. And it was just the most important thing that I've ever done. And that came from the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And you truly set this up yourself. It was so hard. It was so hard. Down to the website, you pick the people who are coming. You found the location. I mean, you really put your heart and soul into that grief retreat. And it showed up to the day it happened and the day that the retreat ended, it just was a really big moment, I think. It was definitely a big, a big milestone.

And it kind of just like gave me a little bit of reassurance of like, okay, you're on the right path. Like this is, this is meaningful and this is impactful and you're doing a good thing. And I'm not saying everyone has to do something with a loss. Like the whole like life gives you lemons make lemonade like I think that's bullshit and you don't have to like a tragedy can be a be a tragedy and you can just keep it that way. But for me just with this type of reach and that that I have and the opportunities that I could provide, I felt like it would have been wrong to not do something like that. So if I'm going to do it again in the future, I don't know. But it was great for what it was. And I'm happy about it. Amazing. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session.

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Moving forward, you had a, you had some things happen too, some big things. I did have some big things happen. Yes. I mean, I don't know. I got engaged. That was a big thing. I'm currently planning a wedding that is happening at the end of this year. I mean, that-

You bought a house that you're sitting in? That I'm currently sitting in, yes. That was a crazy adventure. that has when we bought this house just to like fun fact for it we didn't know if there was Wi-Fi up here we had been told there was and then we moved in and there was not and of course with the podcast that was a freak out moment of hey how are we going to that was the biggest thing buying this house is I needed to be able to work somewhere and that was the first adventure of buying the house is getting Wi-Fi routed up to to my actual house the person

who had this before, he has a sugar shack on the property because I'm in Vermont, and he Airbnbed it, and he routed Wi-Fi to his sugar shack, but never to his house. So I was like, well, I can't work with a sugar shack and there's no Wi-Fi in the house. There's no, it was just, it was a mess, but we love our spot. We're settled in now. We've had it for every year. Happy to say, I do have Wi-Fi here, and we are recording on it now. Thank God. I was like, what is about to happen? And you bought it while we were in Alaska. Yeah. You never mentioned that part.

We bought it. So we bought it when the market was just so crazy. And where we bought in Vermont is a pretty touristy area because we're surrounded by a lot of ski towns. I'm not specifically like right in the tourist sections. But it is such a big area for people that were moving that there were all of these out-of-state people coming in. cash offers just offering $200,000, $200,000 over asking and getting these houses. And we had put in offers on a bunch of houses. And we were on one of our group trips up in Alaska. And the house we have now went up, was on sale. And we had seen it on Zillow before. But it was way overpriced. And we're like,

we're not, we're not going for that. And then they lowered the price significantly because no one else thought it was worth that price. However, someone else put in an offer while we were in Alaska and Al had come and seen the house and he was like Cassie, this is, you're going to love it here. It's amazing. Like, I know this is our house. We have to, we have to put in an offer and try. So we did and say unseen it. I was really trusting Al to pick a good house. And thankfully he did and we do love it here. But it was an adventure. And thankfully, the other, there was only one other offer on the house. They came in at pretty much the same offer. We offered, I think, we offered like $5,000 more, and they took ours.

So we didn't offer like crazy amount over or anything like that. And it just worked out. Yeah. I mean, that was when I remember being in Alaska with you. And you're like, well, Al says that I'll like it. I'm like, I could never. I could never be like, okay, sounds great. I trust you.

I mean, I know that you guys are in this partnership and it's important to value and trust. other's word and things like that but like that's a huge purchase it was really hard sure it was really hard but it had so much that I wanted it had the amount of land I wanted I really didn't we were having trouble finding a spot that didn't have a bunch of road noise that would be good for the dogs well we only had one at the time but now we have two that's another thing that happened this year is I gave birth to a dog yeah it's incredible she is my flesh and blood and I love her very much. So it's been a journey.

It's been an exciting journey over the past four years. And now we are so, I guess, one thing that we haven't even said yet, which I feel like is so important right now is just to say thank you to all of you who are listening and who have been here for this ride. And I mean, we really wouldn't be here and have grown this community in this podcast without you all. I mean, over the past four years, we've met hundreds of you. We've taken hundreds of you on group trips.

We've made so many friends. We've facilitated it. I mean, we've seen so many friendships happen because of this podcast. This is such a supportive and just very accepting community of everyone. Everyone is just has been amazing. And we truly, truly would not be where we are without all of you. So this episode is a dedication for all of you as well because this is happening because you are listening. Yeah, a thousand percent.

I mean, we had another question. to fold in here. No, we had no idea that this would ever happen. People ask us quite often, you know, did you ever foresee the show taking off like this or for you to be where you are now? And the answer is no all around. Yes, we had confidence in the show and our ability, but we weren't sure if it was something that people would take an interest in or want to, you know, there's, without getting to, like depressing. Being a woman in podcasting is difficult. And two women running a podcast is even more difficult with just different. It's hard to, we could have the same information. We could be conveying word for word the same information as males. And we would get crap more so

than a male. There's more criticism for sure. Yeah. And it has one of the things that we were worried about when we began this podcast was just putting ourselves out here and being ourselves and talking and making mistakes on air and showing our faces to the public and really putting ourselves out there and how people would react to us in particular. But not only have people overwhelmingly been, for the most part, there's been a few outside circumstances, but for the most part, people have been overwhelmingly accepting of not only us, but each other as listeners too. And I mean, I can look at some people's platforms and I can see that people are just so mean to each other on there. And I can really say that almost never happens within our platform, which is something that I'm really

proud of and really happy that you guys are so, so kind because I'm a little, uh, my feelings get hurt sometimes. So I appreciate it. Definitely. I mean, I think it's, it's hard to remember that there are people behind pages and audio and content. And for us, especially being so intensely private, generally speaking, to put yourself in this like public eye, even on a minute scale. I mean, we're, we still very often feel like the small fish in a big pond. And we are nowhere near any sort of, you know, leveled up notoriety. It's not like. It's not like. Like I walked down the street. I've been recognized twice, two times in the last four years.

And one of them was from my voice, not my face. And that was bizarre, very bizarre. And I'll never get used to it. And I hope that it's kind of weird because now that we're on video, I'm like, oh, my God, people are going to know what I look like. But yeah, for being private people, putting ourselves out there every week is hard. Even if it is just an audio format of something that has nothing to do with us. There's always that chance that someone's going to say something mean or be intentionally, I don't know, mean and mean-spirited when there's no need for that. And like Cassie said, we're really, really appreciative of our community and we're proud of our community because I think it's rare to see someone be unkind in our comment section, whether it has anything to do with us or just in general or to,

anybody else and we're proud of that because there's a lot of hate in this world and it bleeds into a lot of different things. It's kind of just like spattered out wherever and we're really happy that this has kind of been a container of positivity and encouragement. It's been a safe space, a safe space. I don't know what that word came out first. A safe space for everybody and we've been really appreciative of it. But I guess going into just because we have, of course, we have a catalog of over 270 episodes. I mean, this is, what, 277 or something? But we have so many episodes and we have done so many stories that we wanted to do a recap

of not all of the stories. Like, sit down. You're going to be here for 20 hours. Just a recap of some of our bigger stories and updates to those stories that have happened. So I guess I'll go first because mine is talking. The one I picked was from our very first episode that we ever did. And if you listen to that one, you might even be familiar if you didn't listen to that one. But we did the murder of Julie and Lolly in Shenandoah National Park.

And actually, if you've been following along for a while, we've actually done a few episodes on the story. So in our first episode ever, we covered it. And when I covered the story, this case was unsolved. However, on June 20th of 2024, so just this past year, the case was officially announced that it was solved. And we did talk about that on another episode of this podcast, but I just think it's important because it is still kind of ongoing to keep the conversation going about this case. So on June 20th, it was announced as solved. And they found that this new DNA evidence linked a dead serial rapist whose name was Walter Leo Jackson to the crimes and to the murders of Julie and Lolly and Shannon Doa National Park. So the other episodes that we did were episode 79 with Catherine Miles, who is an investigative journalist who wrote a book on the case. And then again, we spoke with her on episode 234 that aired on July 1st, 2024. So just after the announcement of the solving of the case, where we actually discussed her thoughts.

of revealing this serial rapist as the murderer in any holes in the case and how she thought things were handled. And also, if you remember, if you were paying attention to that, there was one person, David Daryl Rice, who had faced a lot of flack and a lot of people thought he was guilty in their murders. So we talked in depth about that. But how this case is still ongoing and still deserves to be talked about and considered is that the FBI are currently looking to identify more victims of Walters who went and he went by the name of Leo so that is important to note they believe that he could be linked to other unsolved crimes and they've actually put an outline out of crimes that he could not have been involved in just in case but there are a

series of course of tons of unsolved crimes that kind of fit his bill and his MO that he could have done. So they really want anyone with information that could lead to solving their case that maybe Walter was a part of to come forward. But I did want to just note that he is excluded as being a possible suspect for any unsolved crimes that occurred during a certain period. And that period was January, 1984 through February 1989 because he was incarcerated. Again, May 1994 through September 1994, he was also incarcerated and couldn't have committed any crimes. Again, in August of 2000 through May of 2007, he was also incarcerated. He was in Ohio at the time and could not. And then he was incarcerated from May 2012 until he died in March of 2018. So any of those periods,

he could have not done it. But if there's anyone listening and this information is helpful to you, I just want it to be out there. Cool. Yeah. I mean, that was such a, it was definitely a full circle moment when that was announced because, like you said, it was the first case that you ever covered. And it was such a huge case, not even in the outdoor true crime niche. It's like this was a case that everyone knew about. It was.

It was. It was just such a big question mark for so long. So it was just like a really monumental breakthrough. And it wreaked havoc on the LGBTQ communities because a lot of people, Julie and Lolly, were in a relationship. And a lot of people thought that maybe there were someone coming after people in national parks who were gay. And it created this really tense environment in national parks for the LGBTQ communities. So having some type of closure has been really, it's awful, but it has been helpful to know exactly what happened. Although we don't necessarily know why because he died before we found out that he had done it.

Yeah. That's the tough part of that. So I chose a series actually that I did. It was a series of three episodes that originally aired on November 27th of 2003, episodes 187 to 190, where I discussed the Starved Rock murders. So I went into detail and a lot of detail, three episodes worth of detail. regarding the Starved Rock murders. But essentially in 1960, three brutal murders took place in Starved Rock State Park. Three women were away on a long weekend together when they were killed within the park. And there was a man named Chester Weeger who was originally pinned for this crime. And I say pinned because that's kind of the

thing about why this is still kind of ongoing. Because he originally confessed to the crimes after a lengthy the interrogation, but he kind of soon thereafter recanted his confession, and he was found guilty of the murder of one of the women named Lillian Oding, and he was sent to prison for it. He was later released on parole in 2019 after spending nearly 59 years behind bars for that murder. However, he and his team have been adamant for decades that he was not responsible for the crimes, and essentially that he was, it was a forced confession, where today we know a lot about forced confessions. I mean, there's an entire Netflix series on it. It's very, it's a well-known thing within the true crime community. But back then, I mean, that was never even considered.

You did it. You did it. Yeah. And there's a lot of details about why he says he was forced into the confession, especially, you know, police brutality and different things like that. But since his release, there has been a huge push to vacate his sentence and prove his innocence. There were no witnesses or physical evidence tying Chester to that crime originally. So the only thing that really was the linchpin for that, that verdict was his, this so-called confession that he then recanted. At the end of 2024, the defense produced various pieces of evidence from physical evidence, testimony, and more to be re-examined in regards to this petition for him to be exonerated of the murder. The prosecution argued that this evidence produced by the defense was not important or usable and they

tried to basically not go down that road for one reason or another. However, the judge permitted an evidentiary hearing wherein the defense got to introduce this evidence to be evaluated. And that goes along with different testimony and forensic findings and things like that. So that's kind of ongoing right now. They have pieces of evidence that they've introduced that have been approved by the judge to kind of go through this process. And at the end of this, the judge will rule whether or not this changes, this new evidence, changes the original trial result. And if that happens, his conviction is going to be vacated. So there's a lot of different evidence and different things that are being introduced right now as part of this hearing. But the biggest thing I think,

and there's other supporting evidence, but the biggest thing I think is this DNA report that came back that there were, there are essentially hairs in class. in the glove of one of the women who was murdered, Francis Murphy, and those hairs came back as not belonging to Chester. Oh, that's a big revelation in the case. Yeah. And they tied it to actually one of these three brothers called the Bray brothers, who are also were implicated originally and had some ties to it, but they kind of got, because of Chester

confessed, they're like, well, this guy confessed. So what else do we need? Yeah. And those brothers are now deceased and things like that. But Chester is still alive, you know, nearly 65 years after the murders took place. And he is, he and his defense team are adamant that they want this to go forward. And he essentially wants to clear his name. Yeah.

And live the rest of his life outside of prison if he didn't, if they find he really didn't do this. So, yeah. Now, I mean, it's kind of, it's not a huge resolution. But it is a pretty significant update. And over the next couple of months, I'm sure we'll get more information as this hearing takes place. But there is, if you're really interested in this case, there's a podcast called The Starved Rock Murders that it might be, I don't want to say it's biased because it's just the facts of the case that are being presented, but it is being presented by Chester's defense attorney. So there is that to keep in mind.

Okay. That's a little biased. But it's all like just the proceedings. Like every my new, everything. Like he's not giving his opinion. He's just giving what's happening. He's just giving what's happening. Like day by date in the court process and things like that. I think you, obviously, he's a little biased.

But it's a complete. Yeah, it's a very complete account of what's going on. And it's updated. I mean, the most recent episode was in December, you know. So anyways. So that's something to. And if you remember, I know it was a while. while ago. But Chester was not the greatest person. He did some pretty awful things, but that doesn't

mean that he is guilty of a triple murder. So I think that's what this whole thing is about. It's like, let's just really find out who it was. Yeah. Not saying that, like, let's exonerate Chester because he's this amazing person. It's not about that. But if he didn't commit the crime, then he shouldn't do the time. Well, he already did it. He's elderly. He's like really old. I think he's 65 years since since the murders took place. Oh, I thought you said he was, I thought you meant he was 65 years old. I was like, damn, you're being harsh. Sixty-five isn't elderly. No, yeah, he's actually elderly. He's much older than 65. Yeah. Okay. He spent 59 years in prison. It's a long time. He's well into his 80s at this point. But okay. Anyway, moving on. Well, my next case that I wanted

to update us on was one of, I thought the more interesting and lighthearted, not. lighthearted because it was pretty dark in some points, but was really popular was Forest Fenn's treasure hunt that I did an episode on. And I actually covered that July 5th of 2021 on episode 24. So it was super early into our podcast. And I don't know if I want to listen to the audio on that one. I would be sounded like underwater. I would advise against it. I mean, if you want to listen to it, the content is there's a lot of interesting stuff there. And it's a cool story. However, just beware that we did not have a great setup at that point. We were baby. We were baby podcasters and we didn't know what we were doing quite yet. But I wanted to give

a short recap of this story because since I covered Forrest Fend's treasure hunt and the search for it, if you all remember, his treasure has been found, but they didn't want to reveal where it was found and they have now since revealed where the treasure was located. So a short recap to familiarize you with the story in case you have not listened and you've never heard of Forrest Fenn at all. Forrest Fenn was an art dealer that after receiving a cancer diagnosis, he decided that he would take his fortune and a lot of his trinkets that he had around the house that he kept. He almost had like this museum gallery in his home that he would go and bury it somewhere and create this treasure hunt for people.

And it wasn't just a couple little things. He buried $2 million worth of his treasure. and he gave a little hint. He said this was back in 2010 and he gave a little hint and he said that he buried it in the Rocky Mountains. And he said that it was somewhere between five and 10,200 feet in elevation. He also said it was located near trees and that he was able to haul it there himself. He also added more clues in a self-published book that he titled The Thrill of the Chase, which became people started buying that book left and right because they wanted to find this $2 million treasure somewhere in the the Rockies. And a surprise to Fenn in his journey here is he thought that he wasn't going to live to see someone find this treasure. He thought his cancer diagnosis was at the beginning of the end of his life. However, he went through all of his treatments and he survived the cancer. And that kind of played this twist in his whole plan because now he was alive to see all of these people hunting for the treasure that he buried. And this treasure hunt did gain international

attention and people from around the world began flocking to the Rocky Mountains, even though the clue stated that he was able to walk to the site that he was at and he was older at this time, I forgot to write down his age, but I think he was 70. So he said he could walk there, which was a big hint, but despite this, people were going way far out into the backcountry into really dangerous terrain and five people ended up dying because of that in search for the treasure. In addition to that, Fenn also felt repercussions from this treasure hunt because someone actually broke into his house believing that the clues were actually leading to his house for the treasure. So they broke in looking for it saying like, oh, well, this is where it is. I'm positive. This is where your book led,

which which was not true. On June 6th, 2014, Fenn updated his blog that he had about the treasure hunt, that the treasure was found. But after a month after that report, he said that neither he or nor the person who found it would reveal the location of where it was and that they were afraid that if they did give the location that it would become this crazy tourist attraction and they didn't want to do that. So they agreed together to keep it private. Only a few months later, Forest Van died of old age. But now that new location has been revealed. And it was hidden in Dun Dun Dun Dun, a National Park. It was located at the nine mile hole in Yellowstone National. Park and this particular area was Forrest Fenn's favorite fishing hole that he had hiked out to went fishing and buried his $2 million treasure there. Wow.

I love that. Sentimental. It is. I mean, and it makes sense too. I feel like anyone who knew him well could have been like it's probably at his favorite fishing hole and they could have maybe found it. But it was a really interesting story, but it was also really sad because in that episode in episode 24, I kind of.

covered the different people who died in search of the treasure and where they had been. I mean, people were in Arizona. They were in Colorado. They were in Utah, Montana, Wyoming searching. Some people were taking kayaks down the rivers and they were going way out into these back countries and people either got hurt and some died and it was a whole thing. But Forrest Fen came forward and was like, hey, I told people I could walk to it. I don't, I never told.

And he actually had to come forward and say, hey, everyone, it's not way in these back countries. It's not in a super dangerous location. Stop climbing these crazy peaks to get my treasure. I didn't hide it in a place like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was in his favorite fishing hole.

I mean, it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. And it's cool that it was in Yellowstone. And I know that there's been like similar treasure hunt things in that spirit, in that same spirit, that have kind of popped up here and there. but that one was definitely like the biggest. Yeah. It would be hard to be, especially because a lot of people don't have two million dollars that they can just bury in the ground somewhere.

Right, yeah. Like other treasure hunts have come up, but they're usually not as valuable. Lucrative, yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, my next one is short. It is Gregory Lynn, episode 242. It aired in August of 2025. So in that episode, we talked about this guy named Greg, who was charged with a double murder in the Alpine National Park in Australia.

And the episode is more recent, so I won't go into great detail about it. But essentially, Carol Clay and Russell Hill were camping together when they encountered Gregory. and they both ended up being killed. And Gregory was very suss. He burnt down the entire campsite. He destroyed all the evidence. He transported their bodies. He kept returning to their bodies to conceal them.

And it was a whole thing. I mean, episode. Yeah, 242. Go listen to it. But essentially, long story short, he, it was actually a little bit of an interesting verdict because the jury came back with a guilty verdict. in regards to the murder of Carol Clay, but he was not guilty of the murder of Russell Hill. And so it was kind of like this split type of thing. And that's one of the reasons why the prosecution, or the defense, I'm sorry, the defense is wanting the courts to reexamine his verdict.

So basically he has now lodged a formal appeal to the courts because he wants to overturn the. his murder conviction, which he was, he was sentenced to 32 years for this. And he is basically like, he was treated unfairly. He's saying he was treated unfairly. The prosecution did a couple of things that were unfair and flawed throughout the process. I mean, 32 years for murder is a slap on the wrist in my eyes. So I think the audacity to come back with an appeal is something. Right. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, if you do remember towards the end, there were some other shady things that he never was officially tied to, like the death of one of his ex-wife and some mysterious deaths of his neighbors that have some eerie similarities to this incident. So, yeah, anyways, he's in the news because he's actively appealing his conviction. So we'll see what happens with that.

So there's no, again, no like solid update right now, but it's definitely circulating around and we'll see what happens. But essentially his story was he got into an argument with this couple who are in their, you know, they're up there in the 60s and 70s. He got into an argument with them and he accidentally killed them. Right. And then accidentally let their campfire or their campsite on fire and then accidentally got rid of all of the evidence. And, yeah, transported their bodies in his trailer across the park. And, yeah, anyways. Yeah, it sounds like an accident. Yeah.

It's a big misunderstanding. Yeah, I'm sure. It's just stuff like that. It's like, like you said, the audacity. It's like, I, in my opinion, you lucked out with only getting one murder conviction when you should have gotten to. So why are you pushing it right now? Especially when there's all this other stuff like skeletons.

your closet that are starting to come out and people are starting to take a real close look at you and your past. But that's that's the news on him. Well, I hope that it backfires on him and they reopen some of those other question marks that are against him because he's trying to do this. Yeah. It's my hope. Well, speaking of appeals and people who are not great, I have an update on our least favorite husband of our episodes from episode 26, which I titled The Widower. This episode, I told the story of how Harold Henthorn lured his wife into Rocky Mountain National Park to celebrate their wedding anniversary and then killed her by pushing her off of a cliff. Also, I revealed in that episode that his previous wife died after being crushed under a car while her and Harold had pulled over to change a tire. And he had always been suspected in being the cause of her death there, but he was never charged.

the motivation in both of these murders where he, at least for his first wife, he got a big sum of money for her life insurance. And if he hadn't been convicted of his wife, Tony's murder, then he would have gotten a big sum of money there too. And he, uh, if you remember from the episode, he always claimed to be a businessman, but he didn't really have any, uh, he didn't really have anything to back that up. And he pretended like he was busy and had all this money, but he didn't really. And he didn't really. And he didn't, it seems like he might have been jobless. Who knows, he was just really swindling his wives and then murdered them to, or at least allegedly murdered one of them, did murder another and was trying to collect insurance money. However, in October of 2023, he has tried to challenge his murder conviction. He appealed the conviction, but when that didn't work, he filed a motion for post-conviction relief, alleging that one of his attorneys represented him, horribly and below constitutional standards. He claimed he paid him and then he didn't prepare a defense for him at all. Because Harold hated his representation in court so much, he decided in his

appeal that he would represent himself instead. Hmm. Classic. Right. It's like that feels like such a narcissist to me. Like, oh, my attorney couldn't do it, but I could do it better. It's like, maybe there's just maybe you're just guilty so he was quoted saying quote during the summer of 2015 Truman continually told me he was preparing a solid defense at the same time Truman's lawyer at the same time Truman constantly requested that I supply him with additional funds for him to do so however although he prepared modestly for some cross-examinations he never prepared any actual defense at all Right. Okay. Your lawyer didn't prepare a defense for you and that's why you were found guilty. He also alleged that his lawyer excluded him from assisting in participating in his own defense by telling him not to speak during the trial.

He said because his lawyer was hard of hearing in one ear and he, so he like wouldn't, he didn't want him to talk to him because he couldn't hear if Harold was in his ear, I guess. And then he also said that he interrupted his trial. by refusing to ask the U.S. Marshals for a working pen that Harold could use to take notes during his trial as well. So he's like, if you would have just let me say something right down my notes. It's like, that's actually sound advice to tell your client to not speak and let the professionals handle it. That's legit advice. No one in that courtroom wanted to hear you talk, Harold, I'm sure. You're digging your own grave by doing that. Yeah.

And I'm sure your attorney tried his best, but you can only. do so much for a guilty man. And the court, I mean, this went to court and he filed this appeal and he went in front of a judge. And the judge argued that there was actually overwhelming evidence of Harold's guilt that it had nothing to do with not being defended appropriately. It was just that there was so much evidence against him. If you remember, they went into his car and they found a map in his car with an X on it circled that he wrote that was the exact. location where he pushed Tony off. Like, you literally left evidence right there, but thank you for reminding me. Yeah. Because that was not insane. So anyway, his appeal, long story short,

his appeal was thankfully rejected. And I am very happy to report that Harold Hanthorne is still sitting in prison to this day. Where he belongs. Where he belongs. I know we both have one more each, right? Yeah. Yes. So I'll go if we keep switching off. Yeah. So this wasn't a particular episode specifically because similar to Julian Lolley's case, we did a couple of different episodes covering this topic. And that topic is the murder of Anton Mzimba. And we did our first episode about this with John Jerko, who is the director of the documentary Rhino Man. And most recently, we talked to Lata Macabela, who is Anton's cousin and a Black Mamba Ranger. And going to John, he became close friends with Anton, who was serving as the head ranger within the Timbavati

Nature Reserve in South Africa. And Anton's career and passion for protecting rhinos was highlighted in this documentary. That was kind of the main focus of the documentary originally was to highlight just Anton and his fellow rangers and what they do to protect rhinos against poaching and all the different threats that they face in South Africa. But the documentary ended up taking a turn when when Anton was murdered during filming or shortly thereafter. And that was in July of 2022. And his murder has gone unsolved to this day, even though there are suspicions of who was involved. It's very likely individual and individual or a group of people who are in the poaching syndicate ring world.

That was kind of done as like a retaliation move. And yeah, he was he was gunned down in front of his family. which is unspeakable. And right now there are is a there's a huge effort that is underway to try and find his killer or killers and bring them to justice. And that's being headed by a lot of different people because Anton's reach is wide and there's a lot of people who care about him. But John and Lata are kind of also at the forefront of this. And there is a lot of different. ways to support that if you want to. And we've talked about a few of them on different episodes where we've covered this story. But just as a reminder, focus conservation, which is a U.S. nonprofit that is focused on working directly with the investigation on the ground in South Africa to gather evidence and build a case against not only Anton's killers, but also wildlife trafficking in general. They have a fund dedicated to Anton. There's a whole justice for Anton

page where you can donate and support and a lot of those donations go to focus conservation but also towards the reward money that they're posting for any information regarding Anton's murder and there's just a lot of ways to get involved if this speaks to you and we will link them in this episode description because Anton was if you've seen Rhino Man which hopefully by now you have it's available for streaming and it's out there now and it's just a beautiful documentary and not only because of Anton but because of that whole community and that whole force of people who are just so passionate about protecting wildlife and literally put their lives on the line to do so if you just even by watching that and telling others about it if you have nothing to monetarily donate that's doing

something as well so the update is that those this initiative is really often the ground now as far as really trying to get Anton's killers brought to justice. So there's that. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully soon we'll see some movement on that. It's been two years and it's, it's been two years too long to not find out who did this and bring them to justice. So hopefully this campaign that they have going and really are getting a lot of people involved will bring some results and some closure to their families and loved ones. Yeah. Okay. And I last note, my last update, I chose one of my favorite episodes that I've ever covered. And this is one of my older ones. So again, the audio might not be great. But it's episode 82 and it's the story of Julia Butterfly Hill.

If you guys remember this story, it was a really, it was just such a, it was such a conservation-based woman power episode that I loved. And recently, they have celebrated the 25th anniversary of her saving the Redwood tree named Luna. So on Saturday, December 14th, Sanctuary Forest had a celebration that they named Luna a beacon of hope for the 25th anniversary and Julia Butterfly Hill was there to speak on it and to talk about it. And it's really exciting that they chose Sanctuary Forest because that is the organization that has been preserving Luna ever since. And as just a little recap of this, which I think you should listen to the episode, or Julia Butterfly Hill has a book, The Legacy of Luna, which was also one of my favorite conservation reads that I've done. It was just so

interesting. And if you're looking for a book recommendation, that is, that is it. But she is an American activist who stayed in the tree, Luna, for 738 days without coming down to prevent it from being clear cut. And this tree, why it's so special is that it's one of the tallest in Humboldt County. And Luna was chosen to go up there one day, but then she wasn't planning to stay there for that long, but there was no one else willing to stay up there. So she decided that she would, despite weather conditions, despite threats to her life, despite dangerous and also not great situation. I mean, who wants to sleep in a tree for 738 days, you know, but she did. And ultimately, all of the work that she put in not only preserve the tree, but this company was clear-cutting ever.

everything around. They agreed to give a 200 foot buffer zone all the way around the tree to, because they argued that the tree needed some support and some other, some other vegetation near it to survive. So she also got 200 feet of vegetation preserved around it as well. And today, that she is still standing. Luna is still up there. Even though there were some people that came after, it was officially declared preserved. Some people went up there and they tried to cut Luna down, but she's so huge that they clearly gave up halfway through and people arrived and they saw that the tree was essentially cut almost in half and they put these bolts and supports on it. I mean, this was years and years ago. This was probably like 24 years ago now.

And they were worried that it would significantly shorten the tree's life, but Luna is still standing. And you can see Luna. While you can't visit Luna, you can see her from the highway, which is really cool. That is really cool. I know you loved that episode. Like one of your favorites, for sure, of all time. I just think she's so inspiring. And I just think it's such, I think it's such a good reminder of what one person can do, what one woman can do.

You know, it's just such an inspiring story because I think a lot of times we get in our head of, well, I'm just one person. What can I do? And Luna and Julia Butterfly Hill are living proof that one person can do a hell of a lot. Wow. That was really nice. Thank you. I'm inspired. Thank you. You can do anything you want. Be inspired.

Moving on. This is going to be like a really long episode. So I hope everyone is having fun. This is going to be a little bit more relaxed now just as far as like that's like our case updates and everything we had like pre written down. Now we're going to chill and chit chat. Yeah, we're going to chit-chat. And I think so we have the questions. We have a cluster of little listener questions that will kind of end on. But before we get to that, a lot of people are always wondering of like what is our favorite episode. Like if you, if we were to recommend National Park After Dark to someone, what episode would we recommend to start at? And that's so difficult

because we have so many different themes of story. So we kind of broke it down and we each have a pick. So we broke it down into true crime, animal encounters, paranormal survival, historic based, and mystery. Yes. We have a list. A catered list to you all. And even that was hard. It was. I went through the whole catalog and I was like, which one do I pick? Well, that's the thing. I had to go back. I had to scroll back. And I kind of got into the weeds as well because I'm like, well, we also have all these bonus subscription episodes. Do we count that too? Do we not? So I don't know. I got a little overwhelmed. Like Cassie mentioned, this is, right?

Episode 277, we've done a ton just on our main feed, let alone the subscription episodes. And we did our best. So we each have a rack for each theme. So if you're recommending the show to somebody or you want to take a re-listen or you weren't aware that we covered these stories because some of them are from quite early on in our catalog, then we wanted to just shout them out real quick. And we're not going to go into them in depth. We're just going to give you like a brief.

You guys are smart. You can figure out. You can go listen to it if you want to know more. Okay, true crime. Go for it. What's your favorite? Me first? Yeah. Okay. One of my favorite ones that, and this is, I guess this is just one of my favorite ones that I covered. It was a martyr and a murder in Everglades National Park. And that was of Guy Bradley in the Everglades who was a plume hunter. Sorry, was not a plume hunter, was fighting plume hunters. And he was the first ranger to ever be in the park. he actually lost his life when he busted some people who were plume hunting and they killed him for it. And today there's a memorial there that you can visit. And I just thought that it was such a interesting episode. And it just showed what people have gone through to try and save wildlife in conservation. And I really enjoyed it. I loved that one too, for sure. My rec is a subscription episode. Sorry, everyone. If you're not a subscriber. member or outsiders.

Yeah. Sorry. But it's one you covered and it was the abduction of Carrie Swenson. Mm. And you covered that in September of 2021. Wow, that was so long ago. It was a long time ago. And this took place in Montana and she survived.

And she was so on her toes and innovative and kept a really level head in a really frightening situation. And wasn't she trail running? She was trail running when she got abducted by these two guys and they had all these weird plans for her. And she either way, it was, it was such an incredible story. The shootout happened. Someone dies. Yeah. She makes it out. Yeah. It was. Yeah. So that was my pick, even though there are a lot to choose from. The next category, animal encounter, this is by far the hardest one for me to choose. So many. Because there's so many good ones. So I wrote down too. I love it. We picked one each, except I picked two for each. That's the cool part about being the rulemaker. You can also be the rule breaker. Yeah, you can do whatever you want. I am my own boss.

It's true who you are. Well, you're my boss too, but that's better than having somebody else's a boss. I don't know. We're co. We're co-boss. Cobas babes. I hate that. But anyway. Okay. All right. So my two picks are the episode I covered, the man-made man-eater, Jim Corbett National Park. That was episode 52. That was about a man-eating tiger, the tiger of Chumpawat. I never know if I pronounced that correctly. But that was a really cool one. And I think mostly it's because of the conservation twist at the end, Jim Corbett, which the park is named after was the man employed to hunt this tiger down. He was this big game hunter, big cat predator hunter who went after man eaters, leopards, lions, tigers, etc. And he was employed to

take out this tiger and he ended up, he did so, but he ended up kind of changing his tune and seeing the real problem with why these incidents are happening. Why is there this big wildlife human conflict and he ended up being a champion for tigers and Jim Corbett National Park is a big sanctuary for tigers and it was largely due to his efforts later on in life after he kind of retired his gun and I just thought I really loved that episode even though a lot of people died and the second one my second pick is one that you covered and it was episode 73 an adventure worth dying for in Murchison Falls National Park I loved that story and that was a crocodile episode Yeah, that one was rough, but I loved the person that was involved in that I really, I just felt like kindred spirits with him, I guess.

And what's his name, Henry Coatsy? Henry Coatsy. He was a kayaker, adventurer, explorer, who did all of these really, really wild things. And he had fallen in love. He was in a relationship before that. He was kind of like a bachelor off doing his break in heart. and going on adventures, but he fell in love. And his partner was really worried that the stuff that he was doing was dangerous

and she wanted to start a family. So he said that he was going to stop after one last trip with these professional kayakers who wanted a special tour of the Congo. And he ended up, I mean, his adventure was wild. They end up almost kidnapped, almost killed. They're going in these really remote areas that are really dangerous and their alligator infested waters and... Well, not only alligator, crocodiles.

Yeah, there's Nile crocodiles that are in these waters. And that ultimately led to his death on this trip. But at the end of that, he wrote a book called... Not at the end of it. He died. But at the end of it, a book was published called an adventure worth dying for. And it was a journal of his adventures. So he wrote the book, but his loved ones...

published it later. Yeah. And it was like on this expedition, it was being filmed, right? Because it I don't think it was for Nat Geo, but it was for some sort of, it was being filmed this expedition. So there's like GoPro footage of the not publicized and the aftermath you can see and everything like his kayak literally spinning right after he was snatched. And it was just, it was so memorable. This story is very memorable. So. that's why it was my I guess runner-up pick. It gave me a new fear of water, especially while in South Africa. My recommendation was the one that traumatized me the most researching. And I know when we ask you guys all listening, what episode traumatized you the most if you've listened was Night of the Grizzlies. And that was the story that I covered. It was episode 17 where the park service in Glacier National

Park had been doing kind of some off things where they were supporting people viewing bears in the park by leaving like these big dumpsters full of food and dump or these big dumping grounds of food that would attract bears and visitors could literally sit in bleachers and watch them. And they weren't taking some situation seriously because they said grizzlies weren't dangerous and it resulted in two bear attacks in one night, which ultimately led to everyone, viewing bears differently and an update to bear safety and an update to how to recreate safely in a park that has grizzly bears across the board. I mean, across every national park that has grizzly bears and beyond that. And the story itself was very, very graphic and very traumatizing.

Yeah. This is the episode that I think has stuck with the most people overall, just because of the graphic nature, but also the unbelievable aspect. of it that like you know there's no documented incidents of fatalities caused by bears in the park up until that point and then all of a sudden on one night in two separate instances with two separate bears resulted in fatalities it was just that there was like this weird culmination of things that all kind of mounted and on this one evening yeah so that i think that's another aspect of it that was added to the incredible of the story. So yeah, that's the one that it's like, if the question was, what episode should I

listen to if I want to be changed forever? That's it. Night of the Grizzlies. Okay. Paranormal. My recommendation was, and I don't know, I know we group aliens in with paranormal. But they're real. I mean, paranormal is real too. I also, yeah, that's true. That's a really good point. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. So mine's an alien-based episode. I titled it Where Was Walton? And it was episode 63. And it took place in Sick Grieves National Forest. I loved that episode. Travis Walton's story is huge, especially in the extraterrestrial world. I mean, anyone that's a fan of aliens and alien abductions and things like that is very familiar with Travis's story. But it is, if you've heard of the book or the movie

titled Fire in the Sky, that is Travis's story. And he was part of a lot of. group out in the National Forest when they encountered a light in the sky. And he claims that he was objected that day. And I believe him. I believe him too. Yeah. So that's my favorite. It's a very compelling story. You should listen to it for sure. My recommendation was Diana the Dunes, Indiana Dunes National Park. And I think, and this is episode 125, but she also makes an appearance in another, it's, I forget the title of it. She makes a brief appearance in another one too, but that one's a full episode on her that she just Diana the Dunes, her name in life was Alice Maple Gray, and she really fought for the conservation of where Indiana Dunes National Park is today, and she actually left her

job in Chicago to live off grid on the Dunes, and she was, she skinny dipped and hiked around, and she offended for herself, and she just lived this very quiet life. But with that, there was a lot of other juicy stuff going on and some drama that happened. And eventually, she ended up passing away in the area of the dunes. And today it said that it's still haunted by her. And I just think her story is really interesting. She was a conservationist. She was a really powerful woman.

She was a woman who was way ahead of her time. And she totally went outside of norms. And I just thought that she was really cool and inspiring. And she also is a ghost that still haunts. the area today, so she's cool. Yeah. Even in ghost form, she's cool. Even in ghost form, she's cool, ghost. Okay, survival. And again, this is one I pick two because, and only because, I feel like my first pick doesn't really fit into the category as well as my second pick. Okay. But my first pick is the episode that I did on the third man factor that I titled Spirit or Science.

And the reason I put it in the survival category is because we talked a lot about survival stories, and this third man factor is really prominent in stories of survival where people are in life and death situations. And, you know, whether this third man is a product of our brain or it's some sort of spiritual or guardian help from the other side or another dimension or whatever, guiding people in their time of need, is the question. is the question. And, you know, no one knows what this is, but there's a name for it because it's so prevalent in a lot of survival situations and a lot of really famous explorers and just people who aren't notorious at all have experienced this. So it's really interesting. I thought that episode was so interesting. And it was something that I had never heard of before. And then I thought it was really interesting how many people experienced it. And it kind of, it sets off some little, um,

A light bulbs in your head where you're like, wait a second, what's going on here? And it was a very thought-provoking episode, which I really enjoyed. And then to be like, you know, to really fit the mold here with the store, an answer is episode 33, which is titled Presumed Dead in Kings Canyon National Park, where Lieutenant Steve's, forget his first name. I forget his first name. Sorry, I didn't write it down. But he essentially crash landed in Kings Canyon National Park and he was presumed dead by everyone. And he came out of the park after over a month of surviving, injuries, starvation, the whole nine yards. And then like no one believed him.

Remember? I remember. I almost picked the story as my choice because this is one of my favorite ones that you covered. Yeah. So anyway, there's a whole thing. But that was a really cool one. And, oh, episode 146 is the third man factor. Sorry, I didn't mention that. But yeah, those are my two picks. Yeah, that one was a good one because he came out. No one believed him. They thought he was just making it up. And he's like, yeah, I crashed my plane and had to fight for my life to get out of this remote area. But yeah, I'm totally making it up. And they didn't believe him until they found his plane, right? Yeah. But the awful twist to this whole thing was he ended up dying in a plane crash later in life.

I forgot about that. But his story of his original plane crash in the National Park was not verified until a group of Boy Scouts found the wreckage of his plane. And the serial number or whatever, the number tied to his plane. They're like, oh, he was telling the truth. And he was already deceased by then, so a little too late on that one. Well, he always knew he was telling the truth. And he was kind of a honey, remember? He was kind of a honey, but remember he cheated on his wife.

Yeah, he wasn't great. Yeah. Yeah. But like looking at his picture without knowing any other information, he kind of looks like one of those the Hemsworths. Liam Hemsworth, I want to say. Yeah, he does look like they could be related. Okay, my survival wreck was also a story that you covered Lost and Almost Never Found,

which was episode 48 with Yosey Ginsburg. and that episode, I have never had a, like, visceral reaction to the story that has been being told to me the way I did with Yossi Ginsburg. I think it was when he got the stick up his butt. Remember that? Oh, do I remember that? I will never forget that. And I will say that episode, I watched the movie, too. And it was an episode where I genuinely enjoyed the way.

way that you told the story more than I enjoyed watching the movie. Really? Yes. I just felt like Daniel Radcliffe played Yossi and the title of the movie was Jungle. I don't know. And maybe it was because it was the first time I was hearing it was when you told me the story and I watched the documentary or the movie later. But I don't know. The whole time you were telling it, I was like, oh my God, no, no, that's not happening. Like, what do you mean? And I just, that was one of my favorite survival stories that you've that's ever been on the podcast really thank you so much yeah that was a another traumatizing one it just because it's like there was a lot of like could it get worse no okay actually yes it's gonna it keeps getting worse until the very very end like when is this going to

stop getting worse yeah yeah okay two more categories uh historic which again was hard every one of these you have two pretty every single one oh do i have two on this one Yes. Wow, I do. Okay, sorry everybody. I'll pick one. I can just pick one. No pressure. I'm not, now everyone's going to know or want to know and they'll never know what my second favorite historic episode is. But my first is the book Women of Appalachia, Cumberland Gap National Historic Park, and that was episode 213. And I loved, love, loved it. No one died in the story. It was not. Dark. It was actually the opposite. It was really inspiring and I wouldn't say lighthearted because there was a lot of things going on with impoverished communities and things like that was during the Great Depression. But it's about the librarians, the largely women, there were some men, but these women who worked in libraries who got up on horseback and delivered books throughout this area of Appalachia that was really far removed. and couldn't access libraries and how they delivered books and reading materials to their

communities. And I thought it was just such a cool episode. And I know that that is, it's not just centered in this one place. Like there have been other instances of packhorse librarians, but I just chose this spot. And it was really cool. I love that episode. I love that episode too. I love women getting shit done episode. and changing the narrative of things and helping people. Yeah. My historic episode was also one that you covered. I chose the bone collector, Effigy Mounds National Monument, which was Episode 75.

And that was the episode where you covered a park ranger who stole artifacts from Effigy Mounds National Monument and Bones. It was bones that he was collecting that he had in his garage, I believe, that he thought he was preserving or whatever. Yeah. And I just thought that it was quote unquote. Yeah. I just won.

I hadn't really known anything about FHG Mounds. So I thought that that was really interesting. I learned a lot about that particular national monument and its history. But also, I think it's very rarely that you hear of a park ranger doing something. Thankfully, it's very rare that you hear of a park ranger doing something that is harmful to a national park. So I just thought that that was a really interesting point in history. and was also something that I had never even gotten like a whiff of the story existing.

So I think it was a combination of a lot of information that I had never known and then just a shock value that it even ever happened. Yeah. And I also enjoy that. We talked a lot about just repatriation of indigenous throughout not just an effigy mounds, but that's ongoing. And this was a huge thing because he was, he essentially stole indigenous remains. from the park and just kind of it touched on the importance of recognizing that, I mean, he was an isolated individual, but it kind of goes also into kind of opening the door of, you know, well, where do we draw the line? Like just because there's some remains or artifacts or other things in museums, does that make it any better? Should they be given back? So there's a lot of discussion there about that in that episode, which was cool. Okay. Last. Last

But last but not least, mystery, the mystery category. And this one was, my pick is one you covered on really early on in the podcast. It was episode 22, the strange disappearance of Glenn and Bessie Hyde in the Grand Canyon National Park. Yes. That was such an interesting episode. I mean, that is one of the greatest mysteries, I think, in general. And all the parks. And of all time.

And yeah. So without getting too into it, you can go to episode 22 and listen to it. But there's this mysterious disappearance element, which is always intriguing by nature. But there's like this twist at the end of maybe one of them didn't disappear altogether and actually went on to live their lives, which was really added a lot of intrigue to the entire thing. It changed the whole story. Yeah. And my recommendation is a mystery mashup.

It's a more recent episode that we did. It's episode 224. And I pick this one specifically because this was an episode where Danielle and I collabed and we did we both told stories. I told one of an extraterrestrial object that was found in Florida. That was called the sphere that did all like this weird stuff moving around. But what I really enjoyed of that episode was Danielle, your cover of Dorothy Eadie and her supposed reincarnation, which was just there was so much information there.

much like how would she know that if it wasn't real and uh it was very it was another very thought provoking episode of do i believe she was a reincarnated could she have been if she's not how does this explain and it was just it was a fun episode that uh was very different because it doesn't it wasn't really about national parks at all except for i think mine yours kind of was mine was tied to a national park but your part wasn't but it was fine no i went completely off the rails i was like this is my We are kind of actually going off that. We did say that once a year we would give ourselves a freebie. A freebie. I don't think we've really done that, except for if you count that one. I feel like we did. That one I definitely counted. Mine was still in a national park though. So.

Yeah. Yeah. So we, I guess we've never formally done it where we will cover anything that we feel like talking about, whether it's related to national parks or not. And I definitely redeemed mine with a reincarnation story. And it was based in Egypt. And it was a whole. thing. Yeah. So maybe we will do that at some point is like a true like off the trails type of episode for sure. Yeah. And then overall favorites to wrap this up of all like of all time from the podcast. Mine was caught in the crosshairs Yellowstone National Park episode 69. And it gets a little confusing just so you know around that time frame because we were numbering episodes and then we recategorized how they're numbered. So this is episode 69, but if you listen to an ode to Ian, which is an episode that I recorded specifically, or we recorded, but I dedicated and is all about Ian. We, so we had, I think Fiji Mounds was number 67. And at the time, it was like,

right? Episode 67. But then we, well, we. We renumbered them because then I was like, so that was the last one that we released. 75 was effigy mounds. I wrote. Oh, then what one did we? I did one. I don't know which one was 68. Well, I don't think there was a 68.

I think there was a 67. Seven. Oh, and we went, we jumped to 69 for Ian. We skipped because I was like, Ian would be pissed if he was just shy of 69 and didn't get 69. So honorary 69 is Ian's episode. But if you look at the catalog now, this episode caught in the crosshairs is episode 69 that I covered about the wolves in Yellowstone, specifically Wolf 06 and her story. Yeah, that was a heartbreaking episode. I feel like whenever someone comes back with this episode made me cry, that is the one that they're talking about.

Yeah, it's tough. Yeah. My overall favorite that I put is titled A Face. a Lightning Strike and the Jenny Lake Rangers in Grand Teton National Park. And it was also, again, a super early episode. It was episode 13. But I particularly loved this episode because I read a book that I really loved for it. It was a Bolt from the Blue by Jennifer Woodleaf. And I loved the story because it really highlighted the Jenny Lake Rangers, who are an elite group of Rangers within the Grand Teton National Park, who do these really, really crazy and dangerous rescue. And

and they do it with, they do it better than anyone else ever could. And it's because they are so experienced and they do a lot of training. And I just thought that the story in general of how they rescued some people who were struck by lightning on the ground was incredible. Yeah. That is definitely one that I think is up there with Night of the Grizzlies as far as what people have remembered just memorable episodes overall. That is definitely up there. Like Night of the Grizzlies and this one. Hard hitters right off the bat when we started. Yeah, which kind of leads into our questions a little bit. And we're kind of going to do these like fast and like question answer, question answer. Just because we know where this is probably going to be one of the longest episodes we have ever recorded. But I guess just to wrap that up,

we have just to make mention that we have a lot of episodes that we've covered on our subscription platforms, Patreon and Apple subscriber or subscription, just over time that we have put out. And we do one, once a month and because of that we have a lot and a lot of them are episodes that are requested all the time and I kind of just want to be like we did that one but I know a lot of people don't know that just as some examples of of those the nutty putty cave right off the bat covered Cassie did that in like April of 2020 also traumatizing episode or honestly 2021 to be honest yeah it could have been it was early it was real yeah early it's really early that really that Cassie also covered the deadliest avalanche in ski resort history, which was located in Tahoe.

You did that one. We've done, again, Cassie did cocaine bear. I did do cocaine bear. I watched the movie and I was so upset that it had nothing to do with the storyline of the actual cocaine bear, which is a crazy interesting story. And I thought cocaine bear, the movie was just kind of like, it was just a gimmick to get money, which it worked, but the actual story behind cocaine bear and that cocaine bear is real. It was way more interesting to me, so I had to cover it. Yep, yep.

These are a lot. I wrote down a lot about you did. Randy Morgensen and Sequoia and Kings Canyon. And then also, this isn't highly requested, but it's one of the note, Autumn Veach. Is that how you say her name? Yeah. The survive, she survived a plane crash in the North Cascades. That was an amazing episode.

that you covered in a subscription story. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I covered the curse of the petrified Forest National Park, the mysterious disappearance of Charles Color and Crater Lake. Like, there are so many episodes. We have such a big backlog. And if you go, actually, now that I think about it, if you go, if you listen on Spotify, there's a banner, there's a banner at the top that says, like, exclusive episodes for subscribers.

And if you click that, it'll come up as a catalog, like, how it kind of looks for, for every Spotify user. It'll be locked if you aren't a subscriber, but you can see there the episodes that we've covered. It's a nice spot to see and browse, just because we have covered a lot of stories that people recommend all the time. Yes.

So we just wanted to shout that out. Yes. And I guess to close this up, we posted on Instagram if you guys had any questions for us. So we wrote down a handful of them. We got a lot from you guys, but we wrote down a handful of them that we wanted to come on here.

and just answer since it's our anniversary and it just feels like a tell-all episode that we're doing today. So let's answer some questions. Cool. Some of these we already kind of discussed so we can skip around. Yeah. Well, where do you want to start? I don't know. Okay, well. How are we doing personally? Oh, we're really starting. That's, yeah. Maybe we need to like warm up. We've been warming up for almost two hours. Like, that's too personal. No, I'm just kidding. Good.

I mean, it's holidays are stressful. Things are kind of coming down from the stress of the holidays and the heaviness that the holidays can bring. And going into January with this new, I feel like the start of the new year, even though it's just another day, sometimes you're like, all right, time to start and do all these new things. And I feel like there's a lot of exciting things coming up. So personally, I'm doing okay, balancing everything. I'm not doing badly. I'm not like thriving at the moment. But I'm doing good. I think I'm overall doing good and I'm enjoying the winter. It's one of my favorite months. So yeah, that's how I'm doing personally. That's good to hear. Yeah. How I'm doing personally is better, I should say. That's kind of going back to Ian, I mean, that was just such a traumatic part of my, I've experienced death before. My dad passed away when I was 19. as well from a heart attack. So kind of this like sudden death type of thing to the people I love and I'm close to. It's not something that I had never experienced before, but this was completely

unique. And it just really, for lack of a better term, it really messed me up for a long time. And it impacted every single part of my life. And it took me a while to kind of get back on my feet. And I think that now I'm starting to kind of get myself together again. And not only that, but like actually feel like I'm looking forward to things, which I haven't felt since May of 2022. So for that reason, I would say I'm doing better. I still have really difficult moments and days. And I still feel the reverberations of that. And I think I always will to some extent. But at this point in time, I'm starting to feel like there are certain things in the future that I actually want to, like, participate in and be around for and feel excited about. And for that reason, I'm doing better.

And yeah. So kind of like you, like I'm not like thriving, but I'm also not wanting to die. So we're both in the middle of the road. We're surviving. We're surviving moving forward and looking forward to things. And I think better is a good description. Better is always better. For lack of a better.

Yes. Lack of a better word. Okay, this one is nice. What do we love or appreciate most about each other slash our friendship? Aw. We're getting all in the fields today. Okay. Right up here.

Ready to go. Okay. My thing that I most appreciate is the balance that, I guess that's more answering our friendship. Like our friendship I really value because of the balance that it brings. Our dynamic is very what did remember we had we had a astro cartography reading for a bonus thing for Patreon. But we had our natal charts read and she basically, it was a side note kind of, but she was like, you guys are so a line. Like you guys balance each other out so well.

So we were very compatible. Yeah, and I was like, okay, well, yeah, we knew that without having to look at our star sign things. It's nice to hear, though. It's nice to hear some, like, backup and validation for that. But I think for me, like, you really are the ying to my yang, and you are really somebody that I can rely on to not only back me up, but also kind of, like, balance me out and pull me back when I need pulled back. and someone that's just always been, like I can count on one hand the people who have really truly been there for me through everything, good and bad. And you are among those people.

And not only as a friend, but as someone in business, like that's unheard of. You know, they always say don't go into business with your friends or family. And I feel like we're the exception to that. And I think it's because, like, your friends. such a good person and you're such a good friend. And it's true, though, it's true. And you just like bring such positivity and passion and love and presence into everything you do. Like if you're, if you do something and you say you're going to do something for somebody or be there for someone, you're there 100%. You're not like, I'm going to check in on you just to check in on you to say I did it and like check it off

of a to-do list in my mind, but you're actually put everything aside and sit down, like, heart to heart and face to face with somebody and give them your full undivided attention and care. And it shows in every relationship you have, not just with me. So that's what I appreciate about you. Oh, my God. Thank you. That was really nice to hear all of that. I'm really happy that I portray that and the person. Like if I could see oras,

yours would be so yellow. Like just yellow. Like you just exude this. Like bright. Yeah, bright warmth. Like feel good. Like when you, if you had to describe the color yellow

to someone who couldn't see, it's like I would say, you know, it feels like the sun on your skin. It feels like, you know, like it feels just warm and nice and inviting and welcoming.

And that's just what I, get from you. Thank you. You're welcome. I guess what I appreciate most about our friendship, I mean, a lot of what you said, I definitely align with just the fact that we can be friends and business partners, I think is really rare. And I think that we do even each other out. I think one of the things that I really appreciate about our friendship and, and with you is how communicative that you are. There's never, like, there's never been a moment. I feel like where I can't. can't one tell you something or to know how you're feeling or what you need. And I feel like that is really hard to find in people to be able to have conversations that are just authentic all

the time. And there's nothing, there's no like hiding anything behind it. I also really appreciate in our friendship how much I feel like you have pushed me to see things differently, spiritually or pushing me into caves, not physically pushing me into caves, but bringing me out of my gently. Yeah, just like leading me gently out of my comfort zone, but in a way that I am totally comfortable with doing with you and having me, like you just bring this different perspective on life that I've never really had before. Going into haunted hotels or just looking at life a little bit differently, looking

for signs, which was something that I never had really done before, but did after you brought that up, you bring this, there's this love and care that you bring to every person that you have in your life that is important to you. And you are the person that I know that if I called you and I was like, I need you right now. Like I know it wouldn't even be like, why? You know, it would be like you would be there 100%. Like, and that's how you are with every single person. And I'm like, not even just me, but with your other really close friends, your family members, it's like you are not only will you show up for everyone, but you're also one of the most thoughtful people that I've ever known where you will figure out these small things that are meaningful to someone and

you will just do them because you know that it's meaningful for that person. And I very much admire that because sometimes you do things and I'm like, I would have never thought or even considered this as an option to do for another person and you have already thought it and done it and you're like constantly thinking of it and I appreciate that about you. Thank you. Oh, you're going. Oh, keep going, I guess. I keep going. I just, I love that our friendship has not only grown into like it hasn't, we started off as coworkers. We turned into friends. We became.

business partners, but within being business partners, I think that we have become such closer. Of course, now we talk to each other every single day and you're one of my best friends. And I just, I love the balance and the dynamic that we have together. And I don't think that my travels or my life would be as fulfilling without you in it. So I'm just very thankful that you're here. Thank you so much for saying all that. Yeah, I think going back to our friendship, for sure, it's, it's cool that it's, has changed, but in so many ways, has remained the same. And there's been, and it's also kind of like

a separate entity sometimes when, I mean, our text thread, it's like we could be talking about business, business, business, personal, personal, personal, personal, you know, it's just like there is. And some people may be like, that's unhealthy. But at the same time, it's like we could be frustrated about something or have varying differing opinions on something business wise, but in the same breath, be like, okay, but when? are like, isn't this funny? Didn't you see this? Or like, you know, just like go back to our friendship.

And our friendships don't like, of course they like coincide with each other. But they never cross over. It's not like if something is even if things like we have varying opinions, I feel like again, going back to the communication thing is we're always able to talk about it. So it like it sorts itself out because we can have conversations even if we don't agree with each other. And we always prioritize our friendship. National Park After Dark is extremely important and we love it and it's a huge part of our lives.

But when it comes down to who would you save in a fire, it's our friendship first and foremost. And I think that's why this has gone so well is because we know what's the most important at the end of the day. Yeah, because we can say like, oh, we need to do this for the business. But then if one of us is like, you know, I'm really not in the same. space to do this or I can't right now. It's like, okay, that is like, that's totally fine. We are, I think part of why it works is because we're so supportive of each other. And like, if there's moments where like, I'm lacking, you pick up my slack or if you're lacking, I help you. Like, it's always just like a, it's like a give and take dynamic where we're like

always supporting each other. For sure. And thank you for saying one of the things you like about me is my you never you never have to wonder where you stand with me because some people would be like that's not a great thing and it's like I think it's a great I really tried to not I don't think I'm a mean I've never I've never intentionally mean I just I like to know and I that's one of the things I value most in other people too it's like be straightforward with me it I'm not trying to do this to like assert my opinion or whatever like I want to know things about you too like I love of people who are blunt and straightforward and to the point. And I really admire that about other people. So to hear that it comes from you think that I'm that way is cool. Yeah, I do. I think that

you are not afraid to be the person that you are and you're not afraid to say what you need and what you feel. And that is something that I have struggled with. And I have gotten, I think, a lot better with it. But seeing you do it kind of helps me be like, Okay, she's out here. She's expressing what she means. Like, I can say it too. Yeah. Cool.

All right. This one's funny. If we could re-record any episode, which would it be? My answer is episodes one through, I don't know, probably 70. 60. Yeah. It's like just because the audio quality. Yeah, just the audio quality.

I mean, we were doing the research. We did a lot of work on them, but. And it's often. because it's like I don't want to make this seem like don't listen to we just told you all these episodes you should go listen to and a lot of them are early on and like you just said the material the material is great the story is there it's just the audio and you know you heard two hours ago us saying we were vet techs we had no idea how to podcast yeah at all like you know and we are 100% self-taught and it showed for a long time So for that reason, that's my answer. Like, I don't think I would ever re-record something based on the material or things that we said or anything we misrepresented or anything like that. It's strictly just the quality of it. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree. I like this question. What would we send to aliens if we could? Oh, yeah. SOS take me a note. A note to come. get me. Pick me up. I'm scared. I don't know. That's so hard because it's like I, if we're really

getting serious about it, I think that aliens know everything there is to know about us and Earth. And they've been having their eyes on us for a long time. So it's not like anything that would be a surprise to them. You know what I think. I'm like, has an alien ever tried a potato chip? Do they know how good potato chips there? Salt and vinegar? Like, they might be intelligent and they might know. all the ins and outs of how we function. But have they ever tried Skittles? I would say probably not. Yeah. It's really a loss. And I would want them to have that experience. So you would send them a care package of snacks. My favorite snacks. Yeah. That's a really good one. I was going to get like deep and be like, I don't know, like the most beautiful. I don't know. Isn't there, there's a capsule. I forget what it's

called. But there's a capsule that one of the presidents sent out that has like, a recording of like a person laughing, a whale singing, like just different things from Earth. That's cool. That says like if you receive this, you know, like this is Earth. This is a little bit of what our planet is like. And it's just out there floating in space. Or it's been found. Or it's been found.

And they're like, it doesn't sound that great. Never mind. I don't want to go. But that's why they're here. Or that's why they're here because of that. God. Plot twist. Plot twist.

Yeah, I don't know. My first inkland. Yours is so much, your answer is so much better. Snacks. Snacks. But. It's just the simplest thing. It is. It is. Because I don't know. Like, I think I would send something that represents, like, the goodness of people and how that is sent. I don't know. But I think I would, I would send something about, like, I don't know, like a picture of, like, a, just somebody in their dog. of like there are different species here that like have such a close bond and a unique relationship and this interspecies like thing going on and love and connection and have that

translated somewhere else because from the outside looking in it looks pretty gnarly here like we do awful things to each other and there's so much death and disaster and war and terrible things happening that like I would want to show that there is good here and there is love here and it's small and you have to look for it but it's here like that's my that would be my thing I love that answer too though that is definitely a more special answer than potato chips I don't know but this potato chips is really good really good answer what would I send I don't even know like a snap I'm not a big snacker is the thing. You are. I love snacks. I'm such a snacker. You don't have like a, what about your little dried mangoes?

Yeah, but I wouldn't send that to Italy. I wouldn't be like, oh my God, you've got to try. Okay, what about, what do I eat? I don't really snack on things. God, I don't know. Goldfish? That's lame. Diet Coke. I don't like Diet Coke. I like regular Coke. It's like try this. You'll run. your teeth out. Actually, I've never had a cavity in my life. And I'm 34. So that's something you'd be proud of. That is something to be proud of. Okay. Anyways, let's wrap this up. One last question. Okay. We have about 20, but we'll wrap it up because it's literally been over two hours long. Yeah. So Yeah. One last question. Which one? Which one do we pick? You guys should let us know if you want us to do like a straight up question answer episode. We've done them twice. We did we do we've done. We've done

them once a year for the last two years on subscription platforms where it's just straight up like silly questions serious questions like back and forth so if that's something that you would want to see on the main feed we can totally entertain that we just think we it's weird talking about ourselves so we kind of limit it to once a year yeah but if if you guys want it let us know and we can make it happen and go a little bit more in depth but we'll do one more you pick one or I'll pick one mine short And sweet. Okay. Okay.

And I'll finish. Okay. So I'm going first. Yeah. What if we have the same one? What if? Then we only have one question left. Yeah.

Okay. Mine was, does this still feel surreal? Shut up. It is. I knew it. I knew that was the one you picked. That was mine. Did I give it away when I said it was going to be short and sweet answer?

No, I had already picked that one. I was just about to say, how about this one? And then you said, I have one. Okay. Well, wait, before we answer, or while we answer, speaking of me being super thoughtful and the best, open your present. I got you a present. Oh my God. This present has been, so backstory. Danielle got this present. She gave this present to me weeks ago around Christmas time and she said open this on our anniversary episode. And I have no idea what it is. So it's been sitting in my house for the past two weeks unopened. And I almost cut the this is how much I wanted you to trust me. I almost cut the tape so I wouldn't have to do it on the podcast, but then I was like, what if she thinks I opened it if the tape is cut open, so I didn't, and I grabbed a night instead.

Thank you for thinking of that, because I would have been suspicious. I thought you would have been, so I wanted to make sure you believed me. Cassie. Do you want me to, like, read this and everything? I don't know. I forget what I wrote. You can. You can if you want, but you don't have to.

Okay. It's a small card. Okay. But I wouldn't mind hearing what I... What you wrote? What I wrote. Okay. I will read it.

It's a card and it says, this is just the beginning. It's excited to see where 2025 brings us. Thank you for making NPAD possible and for being the ying to my yang. No, that's the end. Right. Happy birthday anniversary we are for. I'm so proud of us for all we have built, the places we have traveled, and the lives we have touched all by just being girls. Excited to see where 2025 brings us.

Thank you for making NPD possible and for being the Yang to my hang love Danielle. Stop talking about thoughtful. Oh my God, this is so cute. Welcome to K. Yeah, it's a little sign. N-P-A-D. Can I put it behind here? now. Oh my God, I can have it because I don't have anything. Although, there you go.

It's not backwards for me. Oh, okay. It looks backwards for me on my screen. This is so cute. Where did you have this made? I forget the buffalo something and that's the original box that was in and stuff. Yeah. Made in Buffalo celebrating everything Oxford Pennant. Oh, Oxford Penant. Yeah. Yeah, so you can make custom made felt signs and banners and And things like that. So I just wanted to get you a little something to commemorate our birthday. It's so funny. They don't make a noise. I thought it was going to, you know, the noise that those things are. Yeah. Like they're supposed to be like, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The thought was there. It's so funny. Thank you for doing that. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Okay. So yes, final question. Yes. It still feels magic.

and surreal and not like real life. And I think we struggle all the time with imposter syndrome, but we're getting better at it because going back to what we originally said, we are really proud of National Park After Dark and the community and just everything that, yes, we've created, but you guys have really taken and ran with. And it's just grown so much beyond us. And we are so happy about that. And yeah, my answer is, yeah, it still feels really, I, there's a lot of times that I'm like, this is my job. Like, yeah, you know, how thankful and grateful we are to be sitting in these seats right now and able to do this. Yeah. It's definitely, for me, I agree. It's, it's very surreal being here. And I think for me, one of the biggest moments is when we meet you in real life,

we get an email from you and you say how this podcast has changed your life or has inspired you to do something. And for us, Danielle and I, like, we kind of feel like we're just Zoom chatting with each other a lot and telling stories. And sometimes it's hard to remember how many people are actually listening because we're doing this from our house. So to hear the actual impacts that this podcast has is so surreal. And it's, it's just incredible and we're so grateful to be here and so happy to be here. And if you're still here listening right now after two hours, we are, we just want to say thank you. And we have a lot planned. This podcast isn't going anywhere. We're only planning to grow it and bring more stories and bring more exciting content. So thank you so much for being here.

Yeah. Thank you everyone. And last but not least, thank you to everybody who has, and I speak for both of us, but who has reached out to us individually just throughout the journey, not even just to our email or to National Park After Dark, but us individually with support and I'm just bringing it back to, you know, my dark night of the soul, like going through really difficult things. And I was going through my messages on Instagram the other day, like just folder after folder, like hidden. Sometimes there's hidden requests for whatever reason or just, requests and all these things. And I literally have thousands that I've just never gotten to because it was really overwhelming at the time. And for other reasons. And now it's overwhelming because

there's literally thousands in there. And I'm overwhelmed for that reason. But just like the continued support that people have shown and expressed is really, really special that not only do you like the show, you like us and you take time out of your own lives to send us a message or an email or Cassie, when you are like, do you have wedding photographer recs or a recommendation for this or like, I'm looking for that and people are immediately like, oh, I'll tell you. You know, hundreds of people. It's like we have this whole friend group that is just like here and we can sport each other. And you guys really did come through with all those recommendations.

I had so many. And I really honestly looked through like 95% of them to to look into it. And I really appreciate it. So I just feel like we have this community here that we've built all these friendships. And I know people messages a lot. And they're like, we feel like we have this one way friendship. I know you. You don't know me kind of thing.

But we do feel like you're our friends too. Like when we hear from you and we meet you in real life and it just and we see wearing our merchandise or tagging us in photos and out on your adventures, it's just we truly feel like we have friends within you guys as well. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for making that possible. Thank you for expanding our friend group and sticking around. And we have a lot to come in 2025. And we are excited to share it with everyone as it comes. But in the meantime, enjoy the view. But watch your back. Bye, guys. Bye, everyone. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark book club, live streams, discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube.

If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressives save over $900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount.

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