National Park After Dark - On the Trail of the Lost ft. Andrea Lankford

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Andrea Lankford returns! We last spoke with the author of Ranger Confidential last year, but today she is back to discuss her new book Trail of the Lost: The Relentless Search to Bring Home the Missing Hikers of the Pacific Crest Trail. The book outlines the stories of missing hikers Chris Sylvia, David O'Sullivan and Kris Fowler, their families and the lengths they (and complete strangers) have gone to find them.Please support your local bookstore when shopping!For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page!Thank you to this week’s partners!CoPilot: Use our link to get a 14 day free trial with a personal trainer.Earth Breeze: Use our link got get 40% off when you subscribe. MasterClass: Use our link to get an additional 15% off an annual membership. IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping.For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Close your eyes. Focus. Listen to work getting done with Monday.com. Relax. As AI does the manual work, while your teams are aligned on a single source of truth. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform, so flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Notice you're limitless.

Limitless. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally. Breathe. Girl, winter is so last season. And now Springs got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders.

That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope. It's time for a little in-person spring treat. It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. Hello everyone. Welcome back to National Park After Dark. Hey everyone, we got a special guest for you. We sure do. We are back another Thursday episode with a guest. And today we are joined by someone whose voice you might actually recognize because they've been on here before. Andrea Linkford is joining us today. She's back on the show to discuss another amazing piece of writing that we have eagerly anticipated. When we first spoke with her over a year ago when we were recording an episode discussing her book Ranger Confidential, she was a

had hinted towards a new book that she was working on, and lo and behold, it is finally here, and she is back on the podcast to talk about it. Her new book is titled Trail of the Lost, the Relentless Search to Bring Home the Missing Hikers of the Pacific Crest Trail. And this book paints a vivid picture of hiker culture and its complicated relationship with the ever-expanding online realm. Despite the ever-growing sprawl of civilization and advent of smartphones, the American, the American wilderness is still vast and treacherous. There are dozens of ways to die,

hundreds of parks and forests to get lost in, and millions of places that can easily conceal a corpse. Andrea Langford has led rescue missions across America from Yosemite to Grand Canyon, searching for lost hikers, down aircraft, flash flood victims, homicidal fugitives from justice, and suicidal subjects. Most cases were eventually resolved.

But the loose ends that remained, the hikers left unfettered. haunted her. After two decades after leaving the National Park Service, Andrea stumbled across a mystery that pulled her back. Three young men have vanished from the 2,650 mile trek of the PCT, and no one has been able to find them. Trail of the Lost tells the stories of the missing, their families, and others who can't help but get involved. Andrea is the author of Trail of the Lost and Ranger Confidential, a National Geographic Top 10 book about U.S. parks, and three different trail guides. During her 12-year career as a law enforcement ranger with the National

Park Service, she won several awards for her criminal investigations. After leaving the ranger ranks, this accomplished outdoors woman through hiked the entire Appalachian Trail, kayaked from Miami to Key West, and was the first, along with Beth Overton, to mountain bike the 800-mile Arizona Trail. She is now a registered nurse living in Northern California, and we are so thrilled to have her back on the show. So everyone, please help me with welcoming Andrea Langford. Well, hello, Andrea. Thank you so much for coming back on. We know it's been a while, but it's so good to have you back. Yeah, I'm glad to be back. Discuss this next book I just finished. Well, during our last conversation, for everyone who's been a follower for a while,

Andrea was on with us just over, we were kind of talking about it, just over a year ago or so to speak about Ranger Confidential. And at the very end of that conversation, you kind of like breadcrumbed us. you're like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm working on another book. And it's kind of come full circle, because here we are talking about it. So what has that journey been like for the last year since we talked? Well, yeah, a lot has happened. I, you know, went through the editing process, got an agent, the publisher, and the book came out August 22nd of 2023. And in the first week, it hit the New York Times bestseller list, which was a big surprise. Oh, my gosh. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. And I'm getting a lot of good.

feedback, you know, it is a sad and dark story on a lot of levels, but it's also, it's inspiring professional search and rescuers to maybe do a better job. It's helping families of the missing, feel less alone. And I hope also giving hikers information so that they can hike more safely when they go out there. Yeah. Was this a book that you always knew you wanted to write at some point? Or did this come later? Yeah, no, not at all. This, this kind of But what happened was I heard about this case of a missing hiker, Chris Sylvia, 28 years old, and he was hiking the Pacific Crest Trail in Southern California when he vanished in February 2015.

And when I heard about that case, it instantly reminded me of a case I'd worked in 1995 at the Grand Canyon when I was a supervisory park ranger. And I was organizing that search effort. And I failed to find this missing young man. And I had to tell his father that we were getting ready to wind down a search effort. And that was a hard thing for me to do, and that haunted me for decades. So when I heard about Chris Sylvia's case, he reminded me of that other missing hiker, and the authorities had given up.

I felt bad for his family. So I contacted them, and I talked to his mother on the phone, and asked for her blessing to open my own investigation into that case. And I didn't necessarily see that as a book. I just wanted to help the family. I thought I told them maybe I would write about it. And that step eventually launched me into a whole another one. world about missing hikers and missing hiker Facebook groups. Yeah. And in our first conversation that we

had the first time you were here, we talked a lot about missing people and in the difference between the PCT and the AT, how there's been missing hikers on both. Can you kind of refresh our memories with some of the statistics of missing people on the trails? Yes. Now on the Appalachian Trail, you know, hikers go overdue all the time. You know, people are always getting, oh, you know what, my friend didn't make it to dinner. He didn't show up for work. And searches are initiated. But those cases are resolved to like 97% of the time within 24 to 48 hours. Sometimes the person's found a dead, but usually they're actually found alive. Now, as far as I know, on the Appalachian Trail, there's no missing through hikers. But on the Pacific Crest Trail, as soon as I started

investigating the Sylvia case in 2017, I learned there wasn't one missing through hiker, there were three. And about a year and a half after Chris Sylvia disappeared, in 2016, Chris Sherpa Fowler vanished in Washington State. And then six months after Fowler vanished, a 25-year-old named David O'Sullivan from Ireland vanished off the trail in Southern California in April 2017. So three unmarried young fit men three years in a row all off the same trail, the Pacific Crest Trail. That struck me as uncanny because like I just said, As far as I knew, on the Applachian trail, there's no currently missing through hikers. Mm-hmm.

I feel like, too, when you think about through hikers especially, through hikers are always so prepared because you go out, you're mapping out the trails, you're planning things ahead of time, you know where you're going to be on those days. So to hear of three people missing who are all through hikers does come off, I think, just hearing it right away seems odd, given like what we hear of other people who have been missing just because it is so planned out for through hikers. It seem odd to me as well. I'm accustomed to hikers going missing. That doesn't shock me. It doesn't shock me when they're not found on occasion, but to have three, all of them young men, one each year, three years in a row.

That was uncanny, and I wanted to look into it further. And you said you kind of shared a little bit about how you first got involved and sort of the inspiration behind wanting to get more involved, the Chris Sylvia case. But as far as the two other men that David O'Sullivan and Chris Fowler cases, did your kind of like track of thinking as far as getting involved with their cases and wanting to help their families? Did it follow a similar thread as far as how it began with Chris Sylvia? Or was it just like, okay, now that I know these two other men have also gone missing? Like, I want to see what I can do for everyone since I'm already involved. Because you did mention about the Facebook communities. And I know that's a big part of the.

this book. So can you share a little bit about that? Because that was, we'll get into it, but yeah, I have a lot of questions about that. Yeah, sure. So what happened is, you know, I look for connections. I was still focused primarily on the Sylvia case. You know, his gear was found on the trail. I thought, wow, that's a huge clue. Maybe I'm going to actually solve this case. But I started to look for connections and I joined the Chris Scherberfowler missing person Facebook group run by his stepmother, Sally Fowler. And I was very, I would say, fascinated by the exploits on that Facebook group because a bunch of amateurs, they were really riled up with the no man left behind intensity trying to help Sally find her son. And there's a lot of craziness and chaos going on, a lot of catfishers and wannabes and

mansplainers, you know, are on that site. But there were also some quiet heroes on that site. And one of those people was a woman named Kathy Tar. And she was close to me. me and age. We're in our mid-50s at the time. And I noticed she announced on Facebook that she had spent the summer searching for Chris Fowler, just not getting paid, just a volunteer. And it was October. So she was going to leave Washington and drive all the way down to Southern California to initiate a search for David O'Sullivan, the Irishman. And she was going to be there the same time I was going to be there investigating the Sylvia case. So I begged her to meet me for dinner. And we started talking and Kathy just really impressed me that she had no experience in search and rescue,

no experience of law enforcement. She was relatively new hiker. And that is when you could say the book was formed because I was hooked. I wanted to know more about Kathy. I want to know more about these cases. I wanted to know more about this phenomenon of amateurs trying to find missing hikers. And wasn't she preparing for a through hike herself and something happened? Didn't she get in an accident? Yeah, she did. She was really, she had her permit. It was March of 2017, which was the same month that David of Sullivan started his through

hike, coincidentally. And she was in New Hampshire practicing because she was going to be really prepared. Like you said, through hikers, not all of them, we talk a little more about that later, but a lot of them do try to prepare. And she was in New Hampshire practicing in the snow how to arrest her fall with an ice at. And she was climbing, I think she climbed 42 peaks or something, in New Hampshire. She was getting ready, but she was in a car accident with a friend, and it cracked her sternum. And there's not a whole lot you can do with a crack sternum, but you shouldn't be hiking,

you know, big long trails with big heavy packs when you have a cracked sternum. So that crushed her plans to hike Pacific Crest Trail. But to go on and become involved with the PCT in just a completely unexpected, but, you know, still worthy way is I thought that was very interesting. Obviously, it wasn't planned and but it's it's odd where life takes you you know and obviously she became a really central figure in this book and just something about obviously for everyone listening the book follows the story of the three men and your journey but it's like you're almost like obviously you're a part of the book and you wrote the book and you're there for everything but you really put everyone out kind of at the forefront whether it's the families kathy the facebook groups the amateur

or so many other people who came forward to offer their services and things like that. It was really cool the way that you wrote this book because it wasn't like I was there and these were the people who are with me. It's kind of like the opposite. And I thought that was a really interesting approach to writing. That's, I mean, if you might remember for Angel Confidential was a lot like that. I get bored just writing about myself. In fact, my agent and the editors, they kind of push me, you know, put more of yourself in there.

but I insist on writing through other people's point of view because I think that's important. It's fascinating to me, but I think for all of us, you know, it's nice to see how other people think and see things. I think that's healthy and even inspiring for us. Yeah, and I think it's really amazing just hearing and reading stories like this where someone like Kathy Tar doesn't have to, but decides to go out and look for these missing people. And same thing with you. I mean, you didn't have to go out and help these families and be out there looking for these people, but you did as well. So to read these stories and hear about them, I think it's really interesting. And it's really incredible that people are willing to go out and do that for other families. No, I think it's

very inspiring. I could be Jaden at times and I found it very inspiring about Kathy, who represents a lot of other people who volunteer their own time and funds to try to help these families of the missing hikers. Kind of looping back to the Facebook pages, because I know there's a lot going on with that. And kind of how you said it's a little bit of a mixed bag when it comes to having, because you have to sift through hundreds, if not thousands of comments and tips and suggestions and everything under the sun, because who knows what could be helpful. I mean, amongst thousands of comments that are kind of throwaway ones, there could be one that leads to something really valuable. So what is your thoughts on the whole kind of like armchair expert type of situation that you see a lot in these

Facebook group? I keep saying Facebook because it's kind of like the main social media platform, but just like social media in general, I guess. Yes. Yeah, I see it as the good, the bad and ugly. You know, and the ugly are like the catfishers who pretend to be something, they're not, the scammers, the trolls. And then the kind of bad is sometimes the emotional fervor that comes up in these Facebook groups and people want to belong to it and be a part of it. I think it would trigger false sighties. People would claim to have seen these missing people.

And then we would find out, I don't want to spoil too much of the book, but we would find out that they made it up. And that is very discouraging. Also, the bad is just people who are money more than quarterbacking and not really. adding anything to the search effort, taking energy away from it. But the good is people like Kathy Target came into this because of Facebook. Also, it's an excellent investigative tool. And if you read the book, you'll see that a lot of clues are found through the use of Facebook. And we can even track people's whereabouts. And that even led to us being able to prove that one of the sightings was false

by evidence that was on Facebook. Also, you know, there's a kidnapper in the book. I don't know if we want to get into that guy. We can, yes. She really get into. I know. I'm like, I'm trying to be very careful about what I say, not saying, because you don't want to give anything. I don't want to give away the whole book, but also.

But I want to talk about it. There's a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. So the kidnapper, his name is Jane Perillo. He was going by the trail named Medic on the Pacific Crest Trail. And he's like a con man. You know, he'll charm a woman at first and get her to be in a romantic relationship with

him and then he will turn controlling and mean and violent. And so he actually did this to a PCT through hiker in 2018. Her name was Kira Moon. She went by the trail name Still Magnolia. And she eventually, long short, she escaped from him and she had broken ribs. And law enforcement, let him go. They weren't sympathetic to her. They let Perillo go. And this was in 2018. Well, those of us in the trail family, the tramillet, as we call it, we all got on Facebook and we started posting pictures of him and telling, you know, his history. And he'd been doing this since 1994, at least doing this to women. And so when law enforcement wasn't aggressive enough, we used Facebook and YouTube to warn other hikers. And this would force the kidnapper to bounce. He would

go to that Continental Divide Trail, the Arizona Trail, back to the PCT. And so that kept the heat on him. And so I'm kind of proud of that that so many of us, and we got criticized for doing that. But we've been vindicated now because Perillo is in custody because he did kidnap another woman and took her to New Jersey and prosecutors used information that I had posted on Facebook to convince the judge not to grant and fail. Wow. That's amazing. That's another example of how social media can be very useful and helpful. And to be able to post his photo for other hikers who might not really be that much in contact with other people that much, like, you know, just quick, hop on Facebook real quick, message your family and see their face and be like, wait a minute, I just saw him or I interacted

with him earlier today. That's so important. And it reminds me too a lot. I live right near the long trail and I'm part of some of the hiking groups on Facebook. And I last year, there was someone on the trail who had assaulted someone. And same thing. People started posting his picture, his trail name, which I don't remember. And I don't know where he is or what happened with that now. But a lot of people following that post where like I saw him here he was on this part of the trail he was here last night like watch out from here and it became like a thing where everyone was on the lookout and you're safer for it really yeah I think that's a great story of how the good that social media can do and the good that the trail family could do for each other by all of us watching out for each other yeah crazy that

people thought that wasn't a good idea to be posting him after like he was doing yeah they were trying say that we were, you know, slandering him. But we had proof. You know, you want to be careful. You don't want to slander a lot of people. That's not cool. You could get sued. But that's not what we're doing. We had the proof of this. So they were being, they were being more protective of the violent criminal than they were of the victims, in my opinion, in that case. Yeah. And he did it again, clearly. So I mean, I don't think he'll get out this time. Good. Hopefully not. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Prime. Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want.

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like Kathy Tarr is a great example of someone that is doing good and obviously is very helpful, but I feel like there's a lot of people who are like, I'm going to go out on my own and take things into my own hands and kind of try and aid in this investigation just with no knowledge, expertise, whatever. Does law enforcement get concerned for that? Like, where is the line drawn of like, thank you for your help and I'm encouraging this to now I'm concerned because I'm worried about you out there now on the boots on the ground, not a part of any official investigation, but just kind of doing it on your own. Where, what are the feelings on that? Well, I think, I think law enforcement has a big fear of that. They're, you know, extremely concerned that an amateur might go out

and get themselves hurt. Some of that's warranted. Some of that is law enforcement officers are less experienced out there than some hikers. So, you know, a big part of my stress when I was a supervisor park ranger, are my rangers going to get hurt who are pros at this? But are they going to get hurt by trying to find somebody or trying to rescue somebody? And that's stressful. And you try to mitigate the risk versus the benefit when you're responding to a rescue or a search. So that's always a concern. But I see it as a mixed thing because some of the people getting involved in this were more experience in the outdoors than the law enforcement was. And in the book, again, I don't want to spoil too much, but amateurs found clues that the authorities missed.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Kind of a fresh set of eyes, too. It is. And it's a different perspective. And, you know, a lot of law enforcement personnel aren't familiar with the trails or the area that they're in or the way a hiker operates and thinks and, you know, to have somebody who's in that kind of world and community to come in and give those fresh perspectives and new set of eyes can make all the difference. So on paper, it's kind of like, and I'm sure in the eyes of the families and loved ones, it's like, of course, the more the merrier. Like, yes, I would love more people coming. to help our cause. But I know there's some issues with like red tape situations as far as like what's allowed, not allowed, different processes that you talk about a lot in the book too of kind

of like getting caught up in that, which is extremely frustrating as well. Yes, you're absolutely right. And some of it's for a good reason. Like with drones are a very valuable search resource, even if for cold cases at this point, but you can't fly a drone in National Park without a permit. But to kind of go with what you're setting up here is I hope my book helps authorities read this and it helps them feel more open-minded to collaborating with non-government entities and look for ways to keep them safe as well and mitigate that risk because amateurs and non-government entities can bring something to these endeavors. Yeah.

And it just, it reminds me so much of I just researched a story that I think at this point came out a couple weeks ago by the time this episode is released. And it was a kind of similar thing as far as frustrations with wanting non-government agency support that was not allowed in certain situations. It was a case of a missing three-year-old out in Colorado in the National Forest, Jared Addero. And his family, like, had people coming out of the woodwork offering them help from different dog teams and, you know, veterans and expert trackers and things like that. And the sheriff's office was just not wanting people to get involved. That wasn't part of that like integral team. And the Atadero family at first was very, very frustrated with that because they have all these people on the sidelines that

in their mind could be combing through the mountains and looking for their child, but they're being held back by law enforcement. He does go on to explain in his book as well of like, looking back, I understand some of that. But from a father's perspective, it's almost impossible to accept. And even from his point of view as, you know, a family member with no, I mean, he was a teacher. He had no experience with law enforcement or search and rescue. But for you, especially really seeing both sides, because you've been on both. Like, I don't want to say teams because we're all on the same team, right? Like, you have the same goal. But just different approaches, it must be really an interesting way. to kind of just see all sides of the coin during operations like that?

Yes, it very much is. And I have a lot of sympathy for the father of that missing boy. And again, the authorities, this is also an emotional aspect to this. If they can find a way to safely allow the family to participate in the search, or one little aspect of the search, it is therapeutic for the family, which also maybe they'll find him. the family will feel better about working with the agency. And it'll make the family feel more positive about the agency,

even if the person's not found. Right. They'll feel like they were working together instead of I wanted to do something to help and you blocked me. That'll handle for the rest of their lives that they weren't allowed to use that resource. So the authorities, they need to be more open-minded and just find a safe way to allow these individuals to participate. Yeah.

And it's interesting, like hearing you talk about all of this stuff, especially with your background as in law enforcement, as a ranger. And in your book at the very beginning, you talk about when you first go out investigating these and you approach someone on the trail and you felt more like a law enforcement officer and you have this moment where you're like, wait a second, these are hikers. Like, I'm going to go out, buy them some food, like be a friend and come back. And how did you find that? doing that instead of approaching strictly as a law enforcement officer changed your investigation. It helped me, like I said, I need to think more like a hiker and less like a cop, I think is what I say. And I did because I'm a through hiker. I did the AT, you know, in 1999. And so I knew the culture. I knew the language. And I needed to use that to my advantage. You know, I'm also a nurse. And so sometimes I would use my nursing background in how I would relate to someone. So I'm switching back and forth all the time. And it's best to use the role or the persona that works for each individual case.

You wear a lot of hats. Yes. Kind of going back to the three gentlemen that your book is all about, obviously you became quite close with Kathy Tar, but are you still in contact with the families or loved ones of any of the gentlemen? Yes, still with Sally Fowler for sure. You know, I keep up to date with the assolvans through social media. I feel close to both of them. Joshua Sylvia, Chris Sylvia's brother. You know, we communicate. He's on Instagram, by the way. He's a wonderful artist. Anybody wants to see his art. So yes. Oh, you just opened the floodgates. You've got to tell us where. I'll share it on my Instagram. I think it's Joshua, Sylvia, art, something like that. Okay, yeah, because we'll get hounded for that. Yeah, no, he's, I love his art, it's beautiful.

So, yeah, no, I'm still keeping contact with all of them. They have a space in my heart forever. Is there a particular, so it's hard because I don't want to give too much away. But throughout the pages you dive into, because of course there's a lot of question marks surrounding each missing person's case with regarding what happened. And you kind of go down each avenue, everything that you could think of, you know, like foul play, animal encounter. Was it, did they simply get lost? Was somebody injured? Obviously, every story is slightly different. And, you know, obviously you go into each and every one of them. But is there a particular,

And I know you don't speculate because obviously in the book you go through every single case as far as like what most likely happened. But there's still a lot of unanswered questions. Is there a particular thing that you think like you're more leaning towards or is it still just a lot of question marks? Do you feel closer to any sort of resolution than you did when you first started on this journey? Yeah, unfortunately no. But I do know more about, you know, when a person goes missing, they're in outdoors. There's a lot of suspects, not all of them are human. And I go through all the suspects, right? And on two of them, I feel it's probably most likely an environmental weather related or geologic related threat. But one of them, the Chris Sylvia case challenges me a lot. And one of the suspects, you know, without spawn too much, is something I laughed off. You know, people talked about, well, maybe he joined a cult. And I left this off. I'm like, yeah, right. Okay, like aliens, you know. But then I learned there is an actual cult trying to recruit hikers off the Pacific Crest Trail, also on the Appalachian Trail.

And they even hike the trail trying to meet hikers to entice them to come back to their farms where they can stay for a day or forever. So that was shocking. Is it the same cult, the yellow deli? Yes. It's on the AT and the PCT. And this, even the Continental Divide Trail, they're on, what's it, Camino, Santiago in Spain. Oh, in Spain. Yeah. Yeah. I think we talked about this last time, but I went, I was, one of my friends was hiking the AT

and she was staying at the Yellow Deli in their hostel. And she was like with the Colt. You didn't tell us that. Really? I didn't. Oh, I thought I did. Oh, I went to meet up with her and she was just, they were charging like $4 a night for hikers.

and they went in and she was like, oh, by the way, this is a colt. And I just figured it out. And when I got there, like, you could very much tell. And they separated the men from the women. I was kind of screened when I was there. They didn't let me sit alone with the people who were hiking. So there was like a woman sitting in the room with us when I went in. And it was very much, they were trying to get my friend to join.

And she had learned she had been talking to them that they take all your money, they take all your belongings. and they really prey on people who are a lot of people who are hiking. They're out there because they're trying to find themselves and they're sometimes in tough spots in their lives and they kind of prey on that. And I saw it, I kind of saw it firsthand last summer. Yeah. So you see how it's, it's a plausible theory for one or more of these missing hikers. Yeah, a lot of it is they're not supposed to communicate after either with their families. So it's certainly something to think about. So I know there's a lot of kind of like timelines and dates going on amongst these three stories.

But from how long were you in? Because you were like, you were out on the trails yourself. You weren't just communicating with the families or meeting with them. You were physically out doing searches as well. How long would you say you were working with the three cases? It's, I mean, I still respond to a lead if it comes up. But, you know, I would say really. heavy embedded in with not only investing the case, but working with these amateur searchers

for over four years. And then writing the book during that time and then another year just heavily writing and editing the book. So it's, I mean, I'm just like, oh my God, five years. Sometimes when I think about it, it's crazy. But, you know, we got obsessed. I got obsessed too. It was hard to let go when a new lead comes in, you know, until you follow it all the way the end. And when you care about the families, it's even harder. Yeah, I was going to say even through reading the book, it's like, obviously it's a, it's a very intriguing read, but you do kind of become obsessive about reading it. I remember like, I'm like, I can't put this down because I need to, you know, we always want to know, like what, well, what happens? What's the end? Like, you know, there's one lead after another

and you're just kind of obsessed with wanting to see how this story unfolds and where it goes and you get presented with something you have to follow it through. Like, how could you not? And, And one of the, obviously all three of them were incredibly impactful. Every one of their stories, who they were or are as people. But the one that really stuck with me is at least from the family side was David O'Sullivan. And I think that's partially because his family isn't from here. You know, they're not from the United States. So that adds just another layer of complexity when it comes to searching, like dealing with

a totally different country's protocols and, you know, they're, because they're in Ireland, correct? Yes. Mm-hmm. And it's an extreme disadvantage. It's always horrible if you have a little bit of going missing, but if they go missing in another country. It's just extra complicated.

And that is part of the reason why, many reasons, why Kathy Tarr is such an angel. And I'm sure the Solvents would tell you that if they were here right now is that they had somebody in the state who cared and was there for them all the time morning, noon or night, and falling up on leaves for them. So I know, Kathy, even though, you know, the ending isn't where we'd like it to be right now that they view Kathy as an angel. Well, she's like a writer-di-advocate, you know, and it's also, it's one thing for someone to do that. But it's another thing for someone to do that for a complete, I mean, they're not strangers now. But they were. Yeah, but they were at some point. Yeah. And it's just incredible. And for her, obviously, the work's not done. And there's a lot of

open-ended questions that it's, like you said, it's still ongoing. You're still going to follow through something if it comes across your desk. Yes. And Kathy, I just, I don't want to say like three weeks ago, Kathy was up in the mountain searching again. Wow. That's incredible. So has she just a last kind of question about her, just because she's such a big part of the book as well. You talked to us a little bit in our last conversation, and you've mentioned it kind of throughout the book, too, but just feeling a little burnt out from your career in general. I mean, you see a lot of bad shit, you know, it's hard things. And you talk a little bit about just having a little bit of, I don't know if, because I related to compassion fatigue when we worked extensively in hospital

settings with animals. You're still a nurse, so you're still in that world. But burnout of, you know, a lot of unanswered questions and hard, difficult situations. And yet you go to do a project that is one of the hardest things that positions you could be in, a case, three cases of missing people. Did Kathy kind of reinvigorate your spirits a little bit with, you know, wanting to dive back into a case that maybe reminded you of a not so happy ending? Yes. She totally did.

and she still does. I think burnout will always be a specter, you know, haunting me. I'm older now. I don't have the same kind of stamina. So I really have to set boundaries with how much I can take on. But Kathy, the fact that she still has energy to do this stuff and she's just one year older than me, she does. She definitely inspires me.

And it's just, she's like a side of me that, you know, feels like it's old and tired. but it's still alive in her. That's amazing. I have a question just for everyone who's listening to this too because obviously you write an entire book about the investigation and working with the families and with Kathy and everything. And you talk a lot about what you do when you go out to do these investigations. Can you tell the people who are listening what it looks like to go out and actually

search for these people? Yes. Now, as like as a group search or one person or both? Yeah, both. Yeah. Just what it looks like. Yeah. Well, okay, so some of the things I did, there were times where I would just search by

myself. I would, like Chris Sylvia case, for example, there was a drainage underneath where his gear was found. And drainage just seemed to suck things in. So I would just do a little bit about what they might call a hasty or targeted search of that drainage. On the Chris Fowler case, a clue was found. and without revealing too much, that clue triggers a volunteer search effort organized by Kathy Tar.

And I'm assigned to take a team out and do a line search. And so these is a group of amateurs, but I've taught them real quickly how to do a line search. And that's when you all walk in a line, keeping a distance of maybe 25 yards apart and keeping your eyes to the ground and all walk together and look for clues. So that's kind of an example of an organized search versus just one person doing a tariff. targeted hasty search. And how far out were you guys going into the wilderness for these? Well, I mean, Kathy and I did a 16 mile hike. And one day, um, I did other, you know, hikes about that long. I didn't do any, I did some overnight car camping trips to spend some times, but I didn't do any

backpack searches, but others did. There were a team of people with this clue for the Chris Fowler case. I want to say they spent five days out in the backcountry searching. I think that's one of the the parts that makes this so incredible because this isn't just you guys are helping a family that you didn't know before, but it's also very intensive. You're doing these 16 mile hikes. You're out in the woods. I'm sure there were days where the weather wasn't the best. You know, it's intensive to be doing this, especially you're taking a whole group of people out in this sometimes and you're going out so far. So I think it's just a, it's a nice reminder to know how far people are going to try it. And you said people are backpacking to do it and yeah and that's it you got a little hurt oh gosh you're right

i'm glad i forgot it it's like you know the trauma i did do it overnight yeah i spent three nights alone with uh you know that's a little bit of spoiler but i got an injury and i fall on a yeah we won't say what injury yeah and i was falling a lead that you know probably make you mad when you read about it but yeah i did do overnight and i got in trouble but i don't want to spoil it too much for the readers Well, you're here now. So I'm here now. That's a good thing. Oh, my goodness.

But, you know, there's also the drone searches. Because that's the thing, the safety, you're out there, you know, it's tiring. Even if you're young and fit, it could be tiring. And there's a risk out there. So one of the things that I write about in the book are drone grid searches. Where you go out and do a grid search with a drone, it takes images of the ground. And then you have squinters, they call them, because they're squinters. at their computer screen looking for clues in those images. And there's some good endings

related out without spoiling it for you. That leads to some things being found. That part was so incredible to me because the way that, I mean, obviously you described just how many images that is. Like you put it into context for people, how many images, how long that takes, what that, you know, the squinters job kind of looks like. I can't even imagine. I going through all that. I was actually watching like some true crime documentary the other day about just law enforcement having to go through street camp footage to try and find. And it was like over 500 hours worth of this to make sure.

And it's just number one, the pressure. Because if it's like if you miss one thing in one image or one second of video footage, it could really make or break the whole thing. So with every image that the drone is coming back with, you're not just looking at a regular picture. I mean, you're looking at aerial footage of the forest or some sort of wild landscape that it's kind of like a, what are those things? I spy. But like the little, yeah, it's so difficult. Where's Waldo?

Yeah, that type of thing. But you also don't, you don't know if there's something there or not. Like, at least with Where's Waldo or I spy, you know something's there. And it's still incredibly difficult to find it, let alone just looking. at thousands of images, not knowing if something's there, but making sure that there isn't. And then it's like, you talk about, is that a bone? Is that a stick? Is that a rock? Is that a piece of gear? You know, like, and then you have to get everybody else involved to try and find out. And yeah, that was. Yeah, it's challenging, but it works. And at least four cold cases have been

solved using that technique. Three of them were found by the splinter, Morgan Clements. And all four of those cases, the drone image imagery was obtained by Western States aerial search. Technology. Yeah, I think those examples of, you know, you're really spelling out just what this, how complicated this is and what this looks like because, you know, you hear especially now also because Jared's case is fresh on my mind. But, you know, his dad said, like, how hard can it be? He was on a trail, you know, like there's only so many places he could be. And then he physically got on the trail himself and took a look around and was like, oh, I understand now. So to have examples like that to come forward of like this is how complicated it is. I mean, obviously there's hundreds and hundreds of people looking for three individuals over years. And it is just absolutely insane what goes into it. And I don't, I'm about to give things away and I'm zipping my lip. It's eerie and it's disturbing.

because, I mean, I can appreciate how vast the American wilderness still is, but with all our technology and our dogs and our searchers, the fact that we can't find people who just wandered off a trail, it's scary, actually. It is. It is really scary. And it's like, you know, it kind of brings me to my last question that I had in mind as far as, you know, you read about these three cases, just for example, all of which are people, you know, young, healthy that we know of, you know, peak physical condition, experienced. They're kind of like at the

top of their game, you can say. And yet, these things happen to them. And it kind of makes you wonder, well, if it could happen to them, could it happen to me? And that answer is yes. And that kind of is a resounding takeaway, I think, from this book, especially also, not only could this happen to me, but this could happen. The after effects could, this could happen to my loved ones. Like, this is what could be in the wake of whatever happens to me. And I think that's something that we don't really think about a lot. Like, of course we do. We're like, oh, yeah, our loved ones.

But this book is like, you know, 400-something pages of what that looks like. And that's something that I think is a motivating factor for people to be safe for not only themselves, but for their people, you know, to spare them. And obviously accidents happen. There's things that happen out of our control. But as far as what is in our control to do something about that and be prepared. and to keep that in mind when we go out. You don't have to be hiking the PCT for something like that to happen.

Yeah, I agree 100%. That's very accurate about the situation because it's not just us. If we, it's one thing we get hurt, family, die, family can find us in grief, you know, bury us, bring us home. But if we go missing, it causes a lot of problems. And it's not only just emotional. It's also logistical, legal problems because you're not legally dead when you're missing. And so there's a lot of issues with your estate or let's say you're the breadwinner of your family

and you go missing. It causes a lot of problems for your family. Is there any like tip? I mean, other than like I have like a garment in reach, but is there anything as far as practical things to do or have or kind of steps that you could take for situations like that that you would recommend? Yeah. And you guys know, I mean, there's not going missing in the first place, but let's say you're lost or hurt and you're wandering around lost, you know, leave clues because searchers are trained to look for clues. You know, even if you just take your finger in the dust and say Andy went down this trail, you know, or to the creek, this would be something that helps searchers find a clue, you know, tie something to a tree, anything that get out in the open and put rocks in so that they can see it from the aircraft. These are the kind of things you could do to help make sure you're found after you've gone lost.

bright clothing too i always think like there's like bright orange bright yellow like something unless it's fall in new england then maybe a different color but um i know i think about that when i look at my wardrobe i'm like i am in all black which is probably the worst i could be just the squinters the squinters would hate that that would they wouldn't find me all right i'm new well obviously you've had a very long journey with this you've been doing it for years. And you said at the beginning of this conversation that you went into this not planning to write a book. That wasn't your first thought. When did you decide that you wanted to put this down on paper and make it a book? Once I, Kathy, Tar agreed to let me document her journey. I pretty much said this is going to be a book.

And then she introduced me to Sally Fowler. And I saw that, you know, I had these three characters, myself, Kathy and Sally Fowler, these three middle-aged women who were trying to find these three young men. I obviously became such a story, but that's when I saw it was a book. And I also love how Kathy was kind of just like pretty wary of you. I know your friends now, but at first she was kind of like, what are you up to? And can I trust you? Yeah, yeah. I think once we did that hike, I think that was within a week after I met her, we felt pretty, you know, we felt comfortable with each other enough after that.

And we worked a lot of leads together and there are scenes in the book of Kathy and I working together. Yeah. Amazing. Another question, just kind of wrapping this up for your book when people do go out and read it. What would you like readers to take away from the stories of the three missing men? That to, if you're going to do a through hike, look at it as an expedition, not just a spiritual, I mean, have fun. Let it be a time for spiritual growth.

But also view this as an outdoor expedition. You know, maybe you're not climbing Mount Everest, but it's not just a, you know, a short little walk. in the woods near your house. So take it seriously and prepare accordingly. Then have fun. The spiritual awakening will happen as you walk. Yeah, that's going to happen. I think that's going to happen whether you want it or not on the PCRA.

Have you done or have any, like, desire to complete the PCT yourself? Because I know you did the AT and you've obviously been on the PCT, but doing it in its entirety. Well, I prepped for the Appalachian Trail by just. doing the John Muir Trail, which is a 220 miles or so, which is the PCT, you know, from Sequoia to Yosemite. So I did a, you know, pretty significant section of it. But after I did the AT, I didn't think I was going to through hike anymore. I rather be a section hiker. But I can drive to the Pacific Crest Trail within an hour and a half of my home. And so I go up there several times a year and hike the trail. It's beautiful. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm a section hiker too. Yeah.

I'm not about. I mean, you have an accomplishment. You can be like, check. And exactly. So dare I ask, because I have to, are you working on anything else right now? No, I'm finishing up the book for motion and then I want to take a break and enjoy the outdoors myself. We, I, there's a foundation that's created the Fowler-Solven Foundation. I do help them out. I have worked some other cases for them. And so occasionally I will work another missing hiker case. but for the most part, I'm going to take a break here. A well-deserved break. Well-deserved, yeah.

I mean, because last time we talked, you hinted at this book, but lo and behold, like you had already been, you know, working on it for years. And so I just didn't know if you were secretly working on anything else that next year, you're like, hey, by the way, during our last conversation, this is what I was doing. Yeah, no, not right now. Not right now. there is some interest in attorney adapting trouble loss for film so that might be something in the works okay well that's that is definitely something that's big news yeah so well congratulations on

all your success obviously ranger confidential is kind of like i don't want to say a household name but it kind of is in our community at least you know for sure and um trail of the loss is just it's an amazing piece of work and you shared the stories so well and really made everyone fall in love with each of the hikers and their loved ones. And you end the book feeling like you're a part of something too, or at least wanting to be part of, you know, it encouraged me to, I was a part of the, when I lived in Washington, I was a part of the Washington Hikers and Climers Facebook group. But I moved since then, obviously, back to Colorado. And it made me think, kind of spark it like, oh, yeah, I should probably join a local Facebook.

page because even if I don't want to do anything formal, you know, like, it always, it's good to know what's going on. Because if I'm hiking regardless, I would like to know if there's something going on, like, that I could be helpful in if I'm going to be out there anyways. So it's just good to know what's happening. And like Cassie shared with what happened on the long trail, like just to be aware even. I agree. A well administered hiker Facebook group is in your area or where you go often. is an excellent idea because you can learn about hazards and weather events, as well as being inspired by beautiful pictures of places to go. Right. That's true. Definitely. It's always a plus.

Well, for everyone who is listening and is now dying to read your book, where can they find it? It's available everywhere. It's sold out at Amazon. So if you don't see it there, just go straight over to Barnes & Noble, your favorite bookstore, they'll have it. They should be restock soon. It's sold out of Amazon. I'm not. Never heard somebody say that. Amazon sold out of things. Yeah. Maybe by the time you air this, it'll be back on there.

But yeah, the hardcover sold out on Amazon. But you can find it just about anywhere. And then, oh, before I leave, I got to do a shout out to one of your fans. Oh, yes, please. Her name is Kelsey Lane, beauty by Kelsey Lane. She's on Instagram as well. And she coincidentally did my hair and makeup from my author photo shoot. Oh.

And we were talking. And she goes, I'm a fan of this. show and I saw your episode or listened to your episode on the show. So just going to do a shout out to Kelsey. Kelsey. Small world. Way to go. Very cool. That is awesome. Wait, so she knew who you were before. I don't think she knew until we started talking about him. She put two and two together. Oh, and she probably freaked out. She was awesome. So I just thought that was cool, these little connections that happened. Yeah. You never know who you're going to meet. That is cool. Yeah, we people all the time talking about, you know, the episode we did with you and your books and,

you know, just how the conversation inspired people and just the stories you shared in, especially the first one. And I'm sure we'll get a lot of positive feedback for this as well. And if Amazon sells out again, you know why. Cool. Well, thank you, Andrea. Thank you for coming on. It was great to have you. Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for having me again. And everybody hikes safe, hikes smart. Have fun. All right. Bye, everyone.

Oh, bye. Wait. You're forgetting our, how we say bye. I'm like, okay, bye, everyone. Okay. So everyone enjoy the view. But watch your back. Okay, goodbye.

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